But I like my N800 Opera browser!!

[kooda]

I like the Opera browser on my N800. I tried the MicroB engine on the N800 browser and also the Minimo browser and found both to be inferior performance or usability wise.
For example, the MicroB engine takes longer to display big web pages like the Wall Street Journal (http://www.wsj.com) while Opera is super fast. Also, the MicroB engine doesn't allow touch scrolling on wsj.com while Opera allows decent touch scrolling.

In case of Minimo, the touch scrolling/panning is useless because on touching the screen, it reverts back to non-touch mode.

I will be looking forward to improvements in these limitations with the new N810 OS which will probably also be available for N800 users with a newer browser. AJAX is less important to me compared to the performance Opera gives me on sites like wsj.com.

Keeping my fingers crossed...

[zerojay]

IT 2008 comes with MicroB. Keep in mind that the version you tried was a beta.

[kooda]

I am hoping that someone who has access to the latest OS2008 version can try the Wall Street Journal website http://www.wsj.com on their browser and provide me the performance feedback.

If any browser can handle the Wall Street Journal web site, it is quite robust!!
(the version of MicroB engine that I have 0.0.8-3 doesn't handle the wsj.com website well and loses touch scrolling while Opera works better)

[Jonnycat26]

I like the Opera browser on my N800.

I concur. Opera has spent years optimizng their browser for use on small/mobile/embedded devices. Mozilla has... not done nearly as much. :)

[Mara]

I am hoping that someone who has access to the latest OS2008 version can try the Wall Street Journal website http://www.wsj.com on their browser and provide me the performance feedback.

If any browser can handle the Wall Street Journal web site, it is quite robust!!
(the version of MicroB engine that I have 0.0.8-3 can't even handle the wsj.com website at all while Opera works like a charm)

Seem to work OK on N800 flashed with the OS2008. However, I can not scroll the screen using stylus, but the scroll bars appear very quickly and page can be scrolled well before it has loaded completely.

I tried the same with my other N800 having the current OS: Opera works as you said: stylus can be used for scrolling. MicroB does work fine for me too? (With the exception of stylus scrolling not working. The scroll bars appear early and can be used to scroll before the page has loaded.)

The new 2008OS feels that it loads the page faster.

[Awakened1]

I concur. Opera has spent years optimizng their browser for use on small/mobile/embedded devices. Mozilla has... not done nearly as much. :)

Opera. Closed Source and relys on small dev team that work on the Mobile client. Updates, Vunerabilities, Bugs, etc. all must come from this team at their own time frame.

Firefox. Open source. Infinite number of people can be working on optimizing and adding new features to this browser for the best experience possible because of it's open source nature.

When the new firefox browser comes out on the new N series I don't think you'll be missing your opera browser much and even if you do you'll most likely still be able to keep it.

[kooda]

Seem to work OK on N800 flashed with the OS2008. However, I can not scroll the screen using stylus, but the scroll bars appear very quickly and page can be scrolled well before it has loaded completely.

I tried the same with my other N800 having the current OS: Opera works as you said: stylus can be used for scrolling. MicroB does work fine for me too? (With the exception of stylus scrolling not working. The scroll bars appear early and can be used to scroll before the page has loaded.)

The new 2008OS feels that it loads the page faster.

Thanks!! I wonder why MicroB engine loses touch scrolling on some websites such as the http://www.wsj.com website?

I am hoping that things like these will be resolved or I will have to stay with OS2007 (or RDesktop, here I come for browsing such sites).

[sherifnix]

I look forward to seeing more on the N810, I hope most of the improvements are software based.

WSJ.com works wonderfully on my iPhone. Frustrating that my cellphone can render pages better than a dedicated Internet Tablet. I want to like it more, as the form factor is sweet. I've always wanted a "low-end" OQO, but it needs to provide a full internet experience...

[Jonnycat26]

Opera. Closed Source and relys on small dev team that work on the Mobile client. Updates, Vunerabilities, Bugs, etc. all must come from this team at their own time frame.


Well, I'm realtively new to the N800 world... however, on the desktop this has never been a problem with Opera. They seem to update reguarly, and afaik, they have fewer vulnerabilities and bugs than Mozilla.

[iball]

I don't get Nokia sometimes. They release the microb and RTcomm as open betas for us to do some free bug testing for them but they do NOT release betas of any new firmwares?
I know, I know, bricking liability avoidance and such but they SHOULD at least give us the option to knowingly flash to a beta firmware.

[aleksandyr]

They did that for OS2006, and it was glorious, and the *****ing was IMMENSE.

That said, the lack of OS2008 irks me as a developer, as mostly I deal with things that can't be adequately tested in scratchbox.

[TA-t3]

I wouldn't mind switching to microb. Some things work better in microb than in Opera.

However, the reasons I have not switched yet are, in order of priority:
1) No easy way to configure microb to use the dpad as page down/page up. This is the real killer for me.
2) The optimized view works better in Opera than in microb.
3) Microb is noticably slower in startup and on some pages. As this is a beta I expect this one will improve over time.

But 1) is just the clincher for me.

[nickmar]

Looks like Opera will not be available in OS2008:
http://flors.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/what-the-nokia-n810-means-for-maemo-developers/#comment-109

[iball]

I love how the commenter says that Nokia didn't port the Opera browser to OS2008.
Well fscking DUH! Nokia CAN'T port it since they don't have the source code!
Opera is the only one who can port it, and I guess since Nokia isn't wanting to pony up the licensing dough then Opera itself isn't going to do it unless they fell "charitable".
*****s, the lot of them. You'd think a DEVELOPER would know Opera isn't open source.

[TA-t3]

He _isn't_ a developer. And for all we know, Nokia could still be/have been involved in the Hildonization part - that's not an unusual process when integrating 3party, closed software (I've been involved in things like that myself, in my own job).

In any case, I wouldn't mind leaving Opera behind if it wasn't for the problem Microb had the last time I tested it: No real page up/down, as I mentioned in my previous posting. The one microb developer who responded to those raising the issue earlier sounded like he was unable to see the problem, so I'm worried it won't get fixed. If so, I will either have to stay at OS2007 or find a way to shoe-horn Opera into my N800 when I eventually upgrade.

[nickmar]

I agree - dpad page up/down functionality is an ESSENTIAL feature. In my opinion, the ability to scroll a page by dragging and/or iPhone-inspired inertial scrolling is next to useless.

[convulted]

Re: But I like my N800 Opera browser!!

Answer: Stick with your N800, the N810 is not out there to replace it. Or install OS2007 on the N810... should be possible (I guess - ???).

[TA-t3]

Some of us aren't talking about the N810 at all, we're talking about OS2008, which is the next firmware upgrade for the N800. N810 isn't there to replace N800, but OS2008 is definitely there to replace OS2007. Staying behind isn't much of an option.

[Hades32]

Hy there,
I don't have a Nxxx but I'm thinking about buying a N810 as it arrives.
I'm using Opera as my main desktop browser, and love it, so naturaly I would like to use it on the N810.
So I have a few questions:
Is Opera on the Nxxx like the normal desktop browser, with integrated email, and so on?
As Opera is released for many linux distros why can't we get one of those releases to install?
Thanks in advance

[convulted]

Sorry to disappoint you, but Opera will not be available on OS2008 (the OS that N810 will run).

[TA-t3]

@Hades32,
The Opera version on the N800 (or rather OS2007 and older) is a mobile version, i.e. no integrated email etc. It would be much bigger and slower if it had (the memory footprint would probably be much bigger too).
As for the second question: Linux runs on many (a dozen at least) architectures, so just 'linux distro' won't be enough. The versions you're thinking of are for Intel x86-based CPUs (i.e. Pentiums and compatibles like AMD), while the Nokia internet tablets use an ARM CPU (very common on mobile devices because it uses way less battery power). So, those versions can't run at all on the N800/N810.

[qgil]

Sorry for the multi-reply.

> I tried the MicroB engine on the N800 browser (...) and found to be inferior

I'm not a browser performance expert but a quick answer is that it depends on what you look at. The Mozilla based browser will open properly many popular websites that Opera can't render totally (see all the rich AJAX family).

Think also that the Mozilla based browser released this summer was under development, explicitly imperfect to gather user feedback and bugs. I'm overall happy using the OS2008 browser. The fact of having an open source engine opens many perspectives in terms of development (including runtime, widgets, extensions...) that non-free alternatives can't offer in the same way.


> I don't get Nokia sometimes.

It's good to ask, then.

> They release the microb and RTcomm as open betas for us to do some free
> bug testing for them

It looks like someone forced you to download and test. If you perceive it like this, please don't feel exploited and refuse to use and report any feedback about software under development.

> but they do NOT release betas of any new firmwares?

Releasing one application under development (1-to-few packages with a simple relation of dependencies and a single owner) can't be compared to release a whole firmware under development (hundreds of packages, multiple owners, tc). In the way we work now, preparing such release would take a lot of resources.

We are considering the possibility of releasing the open source stack of the OS (aka maemo Linux) earlier to help developers integrating and testing their software earlier, and receive feedback & bugs from real users about the code under development. See http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/378 . Looks like simple to execute? Well, it's not.


> mostly I deal with things that can't be adequately tested in scratchbox.

Yes, we understand. This is one of the main reasons why we would push these early maemo images (NOT full firmware because including non-free software just complicate things from a licensing and operational point of view).

> *****s, the lot of them. You'd think a DEVELOPER would know Opera isn't open source.

Thanks for insulting me. :) Alright, what I meant is that Nokia is not partnering with Opera to bring their browser to Chinook/OS2008. btw I'm not a developer but I do know what is and what is not open source in the tablets OS.

[kooda]

Sorry for the multi-reply.

> I tried the MicroB engine on the N800 browser (...) and found to be inferior

I'm not a browser performance expert but a quick answer is that it depends on what you look at. The Mozilla based browser will open properly many popular websites that Opera can't render totally (see all the rich AJAX family).


You are correct. The quick answer is that it depends on what you look at. On N800, MicroB renders most pages better than Opera but MicroB engine has issues on some web pages where it loses touch scrolling completely or loads slower. Having a choice of engines is nice so you can choose the correct engine if you know which works on which website better.
I have come across many websites where MicroB engines loses touch scrolling and the two popular websites that I recommend for testing this are http://www.wsj.com and http://www.cnn.com.
The indirect feedback I have received so far is that it is not fixed in ITOS2008 yet is because it is a little complicated...

[qgil]

Having a choice of engines is nice so you can choose the correct engine if you know which works on which website better.

We can't expect the average end user doing anything like this. They expect one browser to work well with all websites. It makes sense that Nokia concentrates in the development of one browser for the tablets to achieve the optimal performance.

[kooda]

We can't expect the average end user doing anything like this. They expect one browser to work well with all websites. It makes sense that Nokia concentrates in the development of one browser for the tablets to achieve the optimal performance.
You are right on this. Hopefully, MicroB will keep getting better and better and any such issues will be resolved soon. In a device marketed as an "Internet tablet", it is most important for the browser to work well with the web sites.

[prosthetic]

Thanks!! I wonder why MicroB engine loses touch scrolling on some websites such as the http://www.wsj.com website?

I am hoping that things like these will be resolved or I will have to stay with OS2007 (or RDesktop, here I come for browsing such sites).

Unfortunately, this hasn't changed for the N810. No touch scrolling on some pages, like WSJ. I did notice an oddity during rendering, though. Let's see if we can't get that corrected. On the whole, WSJ rendering is fine and quick on the N810, IMO. Then again, I don't have a N800 next to me right now for a comparison.

[Moonshine]

Disable Javascript and the WSJ and CNN will scroll fine. My bet is they are capturing click events, but I'll let someone else dig into that... :)

[kooda]

Disable Javascript and the WSJ and CNN will scroll fine. My bet is they are capturing click events, but I'll let someone else dig into that... :)

Moonshine, you are awesome!! I disabled JavaScript and now the scrolling works on www.wsj.com and www.cnn.com!!

Great catch!! I can live with JavaScript disabled for web surfing and only enable it when needed until this issue is resolved :D

[TA-t3]

Javascript creates a lot of trouble as used on some sites, even on desktops (some of the javascript is so Windows- or IE-oriented, or both, that it fails miserably on other platforms). And what Moonshine describes for WSJ and CNN is, I guess, typical web-designer-trying-to-be-too-smart-for-his-own-good. Or possibly that would apply to the web design "tool" they're using.

In any case, what I really was about to say was that Firefox has extensions.. one of them is per-site enabling of javascript. Now that we're going MicroB, maybe extensions wouldn't be out of the question a bit further up the road..

[kooda]

I turned on script debugger on my Windows PC and verified that CNN uses onMouseDown event. But I know that iPhone browser works fine on such sites because the web developers probably coded their site to handle that browser.

So my question is
How do I change user agent string for my N800/N810 browser (MicroB engine) to be same as iPhone browser to test this?

A lot more sites have probably been tested with iPhone browser and since it has touch scrolling, I am thinking that this might allow better touch-scrolling with MicroB.

[kooda]

Using Privoxy, I successfully changed the User Agent on my N800 browser to be exactly same as the iPhone browser but the problem still existed on both CNN and WSJ websites.

This makes me believe that iPhone scrolling treats finger scroll as a different form of input than onMouseClick or onMouseDown.

But on N800/N810, there probably is no distinction between scroll touch vs click touch due to the lack of multi touch.

I know that N800 can read fat-finger touch because it displays big menus on fat finger touch so maybe this can be added to the browser as a form of scroll input and not be treated as onMouseClick or onMouseDown.

[Moonshine]

IMO MicroB will just have to look for movement (beyond some threshold) after a mousedown event and then determine if this should be a call for scrolling or used as part of a javascript event.

Mousedown capability is important though, you run into all the time on sites with JS. (Pulldown menus as one common example.)

There are other problems with MicroB, but it's exciting that there will now be an "open" chance to improve the browser. :)

My top two issues are:

1) MicroB doesn't always know when to bring up the onscreen keyboard, *especially* on layers that are made visible. For example touch on "search" on this forum, the search form will appear, but it's non-functional.

2) Form submit buttons and select elements do not respect CSS color styling. (Oddly they will take background images though) Rather they end up using a combination of theme colors and some default settings. For most people the result is just white/black buttons everywhere, so it's not deadly. But it's a personal issue for me as the intranet app I've developed uses a lot of button color coding for quick identification. There is a bugzilla report on this one I know. Just hope someone is working on it. Wish I knew enough.

[basco]

1) MicroB doesn't always know when to bring up the onscreen keyboard, *especially* on layers that are made visible. For example touch on "search" on this forum, the search form will appear, but it's non-functional.



I agree with the first part but with the second part, all you have to do is hit the center button to bring up the thumbpad and type away.

[Moonshine]

I agree with the first part but with the second part, all you have to do is hit the center button to bring up the thumbpad and type away.

Nice, thanks!