Transparent thumb keyboard poll [Archive] - maemo.org

ragnar

10-19-2007, 05:01 PM

:) Democratic polling does not ensure good usability any more than a "democratic election" ensures selecting a good leader. ;)

(All taken with good humour: my general experience is that democracy in design = committees = least common denominators = too many cooks = everybody wants something = compromises.)

If you ask users that would they possibly like to have feature A, would they appreciate it and use it, their initial answers really have rather little correlation to how they actually behave once feature A (alongside all the other features) gets implemented. There are too many complex features in products because people think that somebody might eventually use them. And even if 10% would, the 90% that won't use them get bogged down by the complexity that having these extra features create. Not to mention the time and effort spent in implementation, maintenance, legacy requirements that they eventually create etc., all slowing down a process that could potentially create something more worthwhile.

For a feature like this - take this with a grain of salt, there are naturally exceptions to this rule, relating mostly to new ideas - since the idea is fairly obvious, since touch screen devices have been around for a number of years now - if it would really "work well", then it would have already been implemented to some device and gained popularity in that device. At least I fail to know any such device.

penguinbait

10-19-2007, 05:04 PM

I voted "Absolutely" But I would rather some work on the email client

Texrat

10-19-2007, 05:54 PM

All that said, ragnar, note how the poll question was worded. A transparency setting could support a gradient of values, from NONE to virtually invisible. The default could, of course, be NONE.

Which really makes the one "O hell no" response a little amusing to me. Don't want an available option? Don't use it. ;)

Well?

EDIT: and if we abided by the "it hasn't been implemented yet so it's not viable" logic, you might not have a job right now. :D Seriously, why not be the first to MAKE it work? I also believe I saw one poster a while back show an example of it being implemented on some device...

ColdFusion

10-19-2007, 06:07 PM

A transparency setting could support a gradient of values, from NONE to virtually invisible. The default could, of course, be NONE.

Ok! Here's my idea - make it so that you can control with + and - the transparency gradient while the keyboard is onscreen!

Brainstorm ftw! ;)

revwillie

10-19-2007, 06:20 PM

ah c'mon! what about the 770?

I'm loving the Osso-xterm (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10348) with transparent keyboard. I wish I could use it in more places, though.

Khertan

10-19-2007, 07:56 PM

Absolutly not ... virtual thumboard is already too slow to display ...

MoridinBG

10-19-2007, 10:49 PM

Just about a second here. You have something really screwed up if it's longer on your device.

I voted Absolutely too. This would be killer feature for Pidgin. Often when i finish writing i see a couple of messages received while I has been typing and sometimes I have to go back, edit and change my point. Very inconvinient.

Texrat

10-19-2007, 11:49 PM

Absolutly not ... virtual thumboard is already too slow to display ...

Displays almost instantly for me.

Besides, as I've said, I'm proposing a setting. You know, one that's optional. ;)

jzencovich

10-20-2007, 12:02 AM

I'm not sure I understand the poll. Keyboard transparency? Meaning that as you type with the software keyboard you can see THROUGH it and see the website behind it? What's the point? Wouldn't it make it a bit >harder< to type?

Although I guess a *setting* would be nice... but one must also consider whether the project has real merit (i.e. is it worth it to divert developers to from other projects like improving the UI and such).

Please correct me if I'm wrong and I don't really understand what were talking about here (I'm stupid :( :p )

I think I sense a trout coming... :-/

mobiledivide

10-20-2007, 12:46 AM

I have been advocating for something like this since I first tried to use any of the maemo IM clients with the thumb board and quickly realized that it was not that useful. I only ever IM if I have my BT keyboard. Another decent alternative would be to have an iPhone style keyboard like the one the Canola guys cooked up display *half* the screen with the text form input box from the IM client/webpage whatever visible in the top half of the screen.

Oh well maybe someday but with the N810 having a physical keyboard I can see this feature never being implemented.

anderbr

10-20-2007, 01:15 AM

One huge advantage the iPhone <Spit!> keyboard has imo is that you can still see *where* you are typing - sounds wierd but it gives it some context, and does not disconnect you from the app. Dare I say it is more 'seamless'?

jzencovich

10-20-2007, 01:28 AM

I agree with you ander and Mobile D. That is something I've never liked of the thumb keyboard, and that's why I rarely use it all. I only use it when entering some (0/\/\p|_iC47eD passwords into forms. Otherwise I'll use the smaller software keyboard (the password text is small and disappears quickly into *s, not a huge problem with thumb keyboard)

TA-t3

10-21-2007, 09:32 AM

I haven' voted (yet), it seems to be one strong 'yes' and a bunch of different 'no''s and one don't know.. if there was an option "sounds like a good idea but I've never used one so I don't really know if it would work", then that's the one I would have ticked! ;)

tabletrat

10-21-2007, 09:53 AM

I don't see why it would be a problem. If you don't like it or dont want it you can switch it off, so everyone should be happy

ragnar

10-21-2007, 02:27 PM

All that said, ragnar, note how the poll question was worded. A transparency setting could support a gradient of values, from NONE to virtually invisible. The default could, of course, be NONE.

Which really makes the one "O hell no" response a little amusing to me. Don't want an available option? Don't use it. ;)

Well, you're not really thinking this issue right now. :)

You're not asking for a transparency setting to the _current_ finger keyboard. The current finger keyboard duplicates the text field on the top of the view. Editing is done in that text area. Surely you're not asking to keep that feature with a transparent keyboard, right?

You're asking for rather more changes to the interaction logic - I would at least presume...

cybe

10-21-2007, 03:01 PM

Perhaps someone could photoshop us some mockups please?

GeneralAntilles

10-21-2007, 03:03 PM

Well, you're not really thinking this issue right now. :)

You're not asking for a transparency setting to the _current_ finger keyboard. The current finger keyboard duplicates the text field on the top of the view. Editing is done in that text area. Surely you're not asking to keep that feature with a transparent keyboard, right?

You're asking for rather more changes to the interaction logic - I would at least presume...

Sure, you can see what you're entering, but you also lose any form of context. This is especially important for things like IM and IRC where information may change while one is in the fullscreen keyboard state.

ichmoimeyo

10-21-2007, 05:27 PM

ichmoimeyo

10-21-2007, 07:34 PM

screenshot of IM conversation using different background and foreground colors. More info to follow...
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u110/ichmoimeyo/zeroWeightKeyboard_01.jpg

ichmoimeyo

10-21-2007, 07:56 PM

As mentioned above "Zero Weight Keyboard (http://www.freshnet8.com/)" can be downloaded for free if you would like to get a 'feel' for it on a 'windows' machine.

Here are 2 forum threads:
@Origami Project (http://origamiproject.com/forums/thread/25062.aspx)
@UMPC Portal (http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1319&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&start=0)

Both the degree of transparency and the background and foreground colors of the keyboard can be changed interactively or from the command line e.g.:
zwkb.exe Foreground=19 Background=8 Transparency=50%

I have attached the readme file.

ichmoimeyo

10-21-2007, 08:58 PM

Personally I would like to see ...

1) Nokia could officially integrate a Linux version of "Zero Weight Keyboard" as an additional input method. Presently it appears that ZWK only has a US and a UK version. I would like to see other language versions for 'accents' etc. Perhaps the original developer could be persuaded to implement a Linux version seeing as Linux on mobile devices similar to our Internet Tablets is about to rise substantially [Intel's 'moblin' etc.]

2) If Nokia did not wish to officially implement it perhaps the original developer could be contacted to write a stand-alone program. Existing 'Internet Tablet' developers could give him a hand or write it instead should he not be willing/able to do so. [dnastase and penguinbait come to mind amongst others :) ].

3) Keep the existing thumboard supporting many languages and with text prediction. It however still would be nice to be able to adjust the 'transparency' and 'foreground' and 'background' colors under settings. Default could stay the same with only those wishing to adjusting these settings.

Texrat

10-21-2007, 09:31 PM

jzencovich

10-21-2007, 10:14 PM

Very interesting...

I'm thinking a similar program could probably be written... And would it be that hard to code? Suposidly, Canola's (2.0) iPhone like sw keyboard input was written in about a day... in python?

Makes me wonder how long would it take to reimplement Zero Weight Keyboard as an open source app on the tablet.....

zerojay

10-21-2007, 11:22 PM

here is a screenshot of "Zero Weight Keyboard (http://www.freshnet8.com/)" running on my tabletPC. It was specifically created for UMPCs and is free to download
EDIT: will post more info shortly
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u110/ichmoimeyo/zeroWeightKeyboard_00.jpg

Holy crap, that is horrible.

I originally voted yes to transparency... after seeing these pictures, I wish I could change my vote.

jzencovich

10-21-2007, 11:28 PM

Zero, that's why I was unclear earlier in this thread. It might be a useful feature, but to me transparency seems to be the wrong way to do it since Whatever is in the background can potentially interfere with your typing.

Where is the 9 on that screenshot? As opposed to finding the d in that screen shot. Layout and design are very important in any product's success. Find the Z for me on that screenie. Yes touchtypists shouldn't have much of an issue, but not all of the IT's users are mad keyboarders.

ichmoimeyo

10-21-2007, 11:34 PM

I just posted the following in these two 'Zero Weight Keyboard' thrreads to get the developer's attention:
@Origami Project (http://origamiproject.com/forums/permalink/27913/27913/ShowThread.aspx#27913)
@UMPC Portal (http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1319&start=40#forumpost8542)

very impressive indeed DevDoo6!

I tested it on my tabletPC but really would love a 'linux' version for my nokia n800 Internet Tablet.

With lots of other mobile devices running 'linux' in the near future [Intel's 'moblin' etc] would you consider implementing a hildon/ubuntu mobile version?
[perhaps with the help of some linux developers if needed]

I posted about your 'Zero Weight Keyboard' in the following thread in the Internet Tablet Talk Forums:

Transparent thumb keyboard poll (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10735)

ichmoimeyo

10-22-2007, 12:06 AM

A youtube video (http://www.micropctalk.com/2007/08/02/zero-weight-keyboard-included-video/) showing the "Zero Weight Keyboard" in action
[video made before "transparency" feature implemented; de facto shows usage with transparency set to "0" and black on white colors]

ichmoimeyo

10-22-2007, 12:29 AM

"Logic" of the keyboard as stated by the developer in this post @UMPC Portal (http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1319&forum=2&post_id=5613#forumpost5613):
The logic behind the layout is that: a key is at the same location as that on the real keyboard. If it isn't, it is at the top row on the left.

BruceL

10-22-2007, 01:38 AM

I think a flexible way to implement this would be to have a jpg or png file displayed transparently with areas on it mapped to keystrokes. That way we could play around with different fonts/layouts etc.

TA-t3

10-22-2007, 08:05 AM

Ok Texrat, I voted "Don't know" now. Oooh, I'm in the 2.41% minority! :D

GeneralAntilles

10-22-2007, 08:05 AM

The Zero Weight Keyboard is pretty bad. I'd, personally, go with more transparency on the background and much less on the key labels and borders.

TA-t3

10-22-2007, 08:07 AM

Hm, what about vocal feedback? As you typed your letters there would be a voice speaking out the letters.. you'd quickly catch on to those mistakes where you hit 'i' instead of 'o' (nearby letters and a cramped keyboard).

GeneralAntilles

10-22-2007, 08:17 AM

ragnar

10-22-2007, 08:22 AM

EDIT: and if we abided by the "it hasn't been implemented yet so it's not viable" logic, you might not have a job right now. :D Seriously, why not be the first to MAKE it work? I also believe I saw one poster a while back show an example of it being implemented on some device...

Because currently I don't think that that idea, as such, can be made to work. By work I don't mean "work from a technical perspective" - of course it would be implemented on the device. But work as in make it usable, functional and easy to use, for the majority of the users.

I'm fully aware of the current problem of losing context, but there are numerous ways to solve this problem. In my current list a transparent keyboard isn't the #1 alternative. There's more potential on the 50% high keyboard, for instance, but that also isn't without its problems.

I'm waiting and hoping that somebody would prove me wrong on this, but until that I'll continue to have my suspicions. :)

ColdFusion

10-22-2007, 08:38 AM

I'm fully aware of the current problem of losing context, but there are numerous ways to solve this problem.
Like what? Let's have an open discussion. ;)

Texrat

10-22-2007, 10:02 AM

Obviously the poll itself is not nearly as valuable as the dialog around it. ;)

BruceL

10-22-2007, 12:34 PM

What we really need to do is experiment; Not just discuss.
Again, if there were a jpg or png that could have adjustable size and transparency, and if a table were used to map regions of the picture to keystrokes, then we could experiment with different sizes, colors, fonts, etc.

It's quite likely that what works for me would not work for someone else. So a really flexible solutions is needed. (IMHO)

debudebu

10-22-2007, 01:28 PM

a semi-transparent keyboard with a tiny bit of vibration feedback would be perfect. i think there are a couple mobile phones being developed with vibration feedback.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/25/samsungs-armani-phone-has-a-surprise-a-haptic-feedback-ui/

i guess it's called haptic feedback.

ColdFusion

10-22-2007, 01:47 PM

How are you going to do the vibration on the tablet? :)

debudebu

10-22-2007, 01:55 PM

right, it would only work with a hardware upgrade, and since nokia went with the slide-out keyboard on the n810 i doubt they'll use haptic feedback in the next IT model.

debudebu

10-22-2007, 02:04 PM

or, check out this piece of wisdom.
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/10/03/prototype-mobile-showcases-e-ink-keypad/

this type of keyboard would have to be slide-out, but each key would be completely customizable for different languages, etc. i can't wait for e-ink technology to get cheaper.

Texrat

10-22-2007, 03:59 PM

right, it would only work with a hardware upgrade, and since nokia went with the slide-out keyboard on the n810 i doubt they'll use haptic feedback in the next IT model.

Nokia has already announced that haptic technology will be going into phones. There is nothing to keep it from going into a future tablet that lacked a keyboard (I doubt that keyboard-only models are the future).

EDIT: actually, not sure what would keep it from going into a future model WITH a keyboard, either.

debudebu

10-23-2007, 02:24 AM

Nokia has already announced that haptic technology will be going into phones. There is nothing to keep it from going into a future tablet that lacked a keyboard (I doubt that keyboard-only models are the future).

EDIT: actually, not sure what would keep it from going into a future model WITH a keyboard, either.

cool. i haven't tried it yet, but i look forward to the day.

Benson

11-05-2007, 04:48 PM

Well, one way of getting haptic feedback would be with a BT headset, some of them have vibrating alert. I did a google for bluetooth vibrator, as well, and there might be some workable/hackable stuff out there, but it looked to me like a lot of NSFW hits, so I backed outta there. Someone who's not at work go look!
It would be a little strange having your finger-press on the screen trigger a haptic response on your belt, in your pocket, or (for the ladies) more sensitive places. But the mind is very adaptable, and I'd bet the belt or pocket models would work just as well after a few minutes as the conventional (in-phone) haptics.

As for the main poll topic: totally for! I'm using the osso-xterm with flying keyboard, and it's great for SSH work. I'd really like a better and more universal solution. Specifically, I think one of the best key label image styles possible would be, at least for dark backgrounds:

Letter, 100% transparent.
Halo surrounding letter, gaussian blur from letter shape, about 50% transparent at letter's edge, fades to full transparent at ~one half letter width away.
Lines dividing keys, totally non-existent. Aim at the letter, and you'll land within the key. That's how the hacked xterm works, and I type better on it, with the terminal text cluttering the background, than I can on the builtin thumbboard.
The halo's coloredness is crucial. If the keyboard is, say, red, and the background blue on black, then the overlapping areas turn magenta and can still be read. If the keyboard is white, and the text is white on black, contrast essentially disappears. Since the background is likely white on black / black on white already, it's crucial to salvage what contrast is left. That means user-configurable color, with the default being some well-chosen color (but not white) to work well with most built-in apps. Avoids discouraging people with poor contrast by default.
If I'm not clear on what I'd like, I can throw together some pics with the gimp.

ichmoimeyo

11-05-2007, 07:13 PM

...
For a feature like this - take this with a grain of salt, there are naturally exceptions to this rule, relating mostly to new ideas - since the idea is fairly obvious, since touch screen devices have been around for a number of years now - if it would really "work well", then it would have already been implemented to some device and gained popularity in that device. At least I fail to know any such device.

Perhaps someone could photoshop us some mockups please?

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the "Zero Weight Keyboard (http://www.freshnet8.com/)"; since then I have tested another free transparent keyboard - on my XP machine - that has been around for a while: InScribe (http://www.iliumsoft.com/site/fp/inscribe.php)

I post some details here as an idea generator; obviously the Internet Tablets' screen size is smaller than the UMPCs & Tablet PCs InScribe is used on. I feel that something similar would be nice as an additional input method. The existing thumb board should be kept - I love the 'word completion' both as a productivity tool and as a foreign language learning tool - but enhanced with the ability to adjust the 'transparency', 'foreground' and 'background' colors under settings for those who wish to do so.

Here is InScribe feature list:
With InScribe as your keyboard you can:
Tap Through the Keyboard: InScribe's Ghost option lets you work with files or programs that are open behind your keyboard, without having to move it out of the way. Fill out forms, tap Submit buttons or open files in dialog boxes, and leave InScribe open in Ghost mode until you need it again.
Shrink and Restore Your Keyboard Easily: Use the Tiny option to shrink your InScribe keyboard to a tiny window, so it's out of the way but still available. When you need it again, it's easy to maximize - even on a UMPC.
Adjust the Size to Your Personal Style: InScribe is completely resizable. Adjust it so the keys fit your fingers, or to get the perfect size for comfortable dragging.
Choose Your Own Layouts: You can have as many layouts as you like, and can switch them whenever you need to. We have included a number of basic layouts to get you started, plus you can create customized layouts with just the keys you want. Make different keyboards for email, numeric functions, notetaking, and anything you need.
See Your Work Behind the Keyboard: You can adjust the transparency level of your keyboard, letting you easily see what you are working on all the time, because your work shows right through!
Work How You Want: Set the Space on Pen Up option to match your preferred style of text entry. Turn this option on if you like to enter text by dragging the stylus, and pick the stylus up after each word. Keep this option turned off if you are entering text by tapping.
Here are some mock screenshots I made using TightVNC & x11vnc.
[some InScribe option dialog boxes shown]

Full Qwerty Layout & Xterm:
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u110/ichmoimeyo/inscribe_QwertyFull.jpg

Light Qwerty Layout & IM chat [+keyboard layout option dialog box]
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u110/ichmoimeyo/inscribe_QwertyLight.jpg

Number Pad Layout & Gnumeric Spreadsheet[+transparencey etc. chooser]
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u110/ichmoimeyo/inscribe_NumberPad.jpg

ollywompus

11-09-2007, 12:55 PM

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b179/ollywompus/N800_transparent_thumb_board.jpg

Ok, so after reading this thread I did some GIMP work with some old screenshots I had... this is more what I envision this as, and I think gives a better idea of how it could look then the other tablet transparent boards we've seen in the thread so far.... what do you all think?

-olly

icerabbit

11-09-2007, 01:21 PM

I think I'd like to try it.

Whenever I use the on screen thumb keyboard, I do miss the context (forum, form, email client) that I am typing in. On the other hand, the fact that all text is clearly legible at the top of the screen, currently, is a real bonus. I think it would be very hard to read the text your typing in-between your fingers.

One thing that could be better though, is for instance that the keyboard / software would auto correct for instance: i followed by a space into I. That way you don't have to go to capitalize. Type an I. Turn capitalize off. The auto correct would in fact aid the lack of a shift key.

Another thing I'd prefer, is if the space bar were in the middle of the bottom row (rather than on the lower left corner). That way I could alternate thumbs (or index fingers depending on how one types) to hit the space bar based on which is not in use with the current last character.

Speaking of keyboards, and touching on layouts. I would actually like to try a more conventional layout with a wide space bar on the bottom, and shift keys. I am fine with two lines of small text at the top.

Envision: two line text box at the top
Special row of wider buttons as present.
3 rows of characters; with the ' and / dropped for slightly wider keys
extra bottom row with wide centered space bar, shift buttons in both corners, punctuation key and lowered ' and /

I will try to do a mockup tonight.

ichmoimeyo

11-09-2007, 02:11 PM

ollywompus

11-09-2007, 02:24 PM

Nice mockup olly - looks very good to me :)

Thanks -- I think it gives the advantage of still being the same usable keyboard we know and love, but allowing for events to pop up in the background.... especially if you are typing a particularly long message, it's nice to be able to pause and take a quick look at what's going on behind the keyboard.

I'd love to see this implemented!

-olly

icerabbit

11-09-2007, 02:43 PM

Some of the designs shown are clearly good for full tablets, but we only have a few inches and 800x480 px.

I do find the current on screen thumb keyboard lacking a bit, so here's a quick draft mockup of a thumb keyboard that would work better for me.

It is based on a picture, resized to 800x480px so it would be close to the real thing. I have a few extra keys available at the bottom left, that I haven't given a function yet. (trying to do this real quick)

http://homepage.mac.com/icerabbit/itkeyboardmockup.jpg

Slightly wider keys (one column eliminated) prevent accidental misses. I find the height of the keys to be OK, but the width could be more, hence the squarer keys in this mockup.

Extra row (2 lines less text displayed at the top) of keys to allow for bigger space bar (accessible to both sides), shift buttons on both sides (quicker typing of single capital letters in names, foreign languages etc.)

Haven't tried transparency yet.

[Edit] The empty keys could be the location of some other things like:
horizonal stripe -
an @ sign
currency symbol $

or provide room to move some stuff around.

I just tried to closer resemble a common keyboard layout, which should help to type faster.

... And alternately we could just take an on screen version of the N810 's keyboard; with return and backspace shifted up. And forego the shifted spacing (row offsetting).

PS: Again it is a quick cut/copy/paste/resize draft. Far from as clean as Olly's work :)

ichmoimeyo

11-09-2007, 02:45 PM

Thanks -- I think it gives the advantage of still being the same usable keyboard we know and love, but allowing for events to pop up in the background.... especially if you are typing a particularly long message, it's nice to be able to pause and take a quick look at what's going on behind the keyboard.

I'd love to see this implemented!

-olly
me too..
I'll second that... or speaking for the at present other 110 - 85.94% poll respondents I'll 110th that :)

icerabbit

11-09-2007, 02:55 PM

Ok, so after reading this thread I did some GIMP work with some old screenshots I had... this is more what I envision this as, and I think gives a better idea of how it could look then the other tablet transparent boards we've seen in the thread so far.... what do you all think?
-olly

I like your design.

I just got hung up a little with the layout aspect and some of things I'd like to improve on the original by Nokia ;)

So in your design, would the text render simultaneously in the upper left corner, as well as in the background? Or only in the background?

ollywompus

11-09-2007, 03:24 PM

I like your design.

I just got hung up a little with the layout aspect and some of things I'd like to improve on the original by Nokia ;)

So in your design, would the text render simultaneously in the upper left corner, as well as in the background? Or only in the background?

I actually agree with you about the layout, at the very least about the space bar -- or at least I'd like to move the space bar to the right hand side (or have the option to switch it up, even better), since that's my primary space bar hand.

Too be honest I hadn't thought about the dual text issue. My preference would be that it would render in both places (for example when I'm typing blog posts, it'd be nice to see the formatting happening in real time).

However (keeping in mind I'm not a programmer at all), I'd be worried that a.) this might needlessly complicate the implementation of it, and b.) would I'm sure take more resources.

If the real goal here is to be able to see as events happen behind the keyboard (such as new IM messages), it's not totally necessary to have the text duplicated both in the text box above AND behind the screen.

I'd be perfectly happy if the text didn't actually appear behind the screen until you submitted it... just using the transparency to see the new IM message that has come in, or an email alert, etc.

-olly

icerabbit

11-09-2007, 04:12 PM

ollywompus

11-09-2007, 04:19 PM

I certainly would see benefits for IM where you can see incoming messages in the background and type right along.

Alternate colors could be needed for the character color and the key color. When you try a mockup with the keyboard set to high transparency, it can get difficult where the site is dark and the key characters are. An alternate color might help. But, I guess, this could still work (25%)

http://homepage.mac.com/icerabbit/itkeyboardmockup2.jpg

Of course IM generally don't use a dark theme, do they?

The biggest thing I would say is give the user the control over the opacity of the keyboard. Certainly alternate text colors would be beneficial, but not necessarily necessary (phew, say that three times!).

If you've ever played with transparency in KDE before, you know that opacity control makes a huge difference (I mention KDE because I personally like their implementation of transparency better than anyone else's).

No matter what the background, with the right balance of transparent/opacity, you can see the lettering just fine.

-olly

ldrn

11-09-2007, 04:21 PM

I love the fact that Icerabbit's design has shift keys instead of just a caps-lock. (Am I missing something with the current thumb board?) It would be neat to be able to install different layouts, too, to veer slightly off topic... and to get back on:

If the real goal here is to be able to see as events happen behind the keyboard (such as new IM messages), it's not totally necessary to have the text duplicated both in the text box above AND behind the screen.

I'd be perfectly happy if the text didn't actually appear behind the screen until you submitted it... just using the transparency to see the new IM message that has come in, or an email alert, etc.That's why I really want this feature, too, so I feel the same way. Right now, I type something on the thumb board, deactivate it, activate the stylus board with my thumbnail, then use that to press "enter" if there haven't been any changes -- but it isn't very easy or slick as far as ways of replying go.

icerabbit

11-09-2007, 07:07 PM

Thanks ldrn.

I am gradually doing a bit more typing on the IT and I miss quick access to some keys (along with the fact that I find them a bit too narrow resulting in typos and a lot of backspacing) so that's why I added them.

The more I think about transparency, the more I think it is a good thing.

It would probably need some button, that when pressed, brings up a little slider to adjust the level of transparency on the fly.

Updating. For websites & email, I concur that the text the user types should only move from the upper text entry area into the respective form box, when the user hits enter.

To keep things easy and consistent it is probably better to stick to the same mechanism for IM ... though I will say, that when I was active on ICQ daily, I loved the fact that it would send character per character through. It really sped up the conversation compared to other protocols. By the way: my wife and I had a transatlantic relationship for a long time and my ISP in Europe billed by the minute. I found ICQ to be the most direct, live and efficient time wise.

I don't know what the status of IM is on the ITs, as I am pretty new still. But, you couldn't transmit character per character, if the IM client doesn't get a live update of what you are typing. Obviously classic IM (send upon enter) is fine in and by itself. Just my extra thought on that live updating thing, with relation to live IM.

rcadden

11-09-2007, 11:55 PM

I think that before we get this, we need the universal auto-correct mentioned previously. Punctuation, but also auto-correct when typing. Somewhat like predictive text for a QWERTY keyboard. For instance, if I'm typing the word "typing" and I enter "typinf" I would hope that the Tablet could recognize that "typinf" isn't a word, but that the "f" is near the "g", and "typing" IS a word, and automatically change it for me. THAT would be MILES more useful to me than a transparent keyboard.

Benson

11-14-2007, 04:33 PM

I love the fact that Icerabbit's design has shift keys instead of just a caps-lock. (Am I missing something with the current thumb board?)

Yes, but don't worry, I was too for quite a while.
Two things actually, both described, rather confusingly, as handwriting gestures in the documentation. And they both work in the stylus-board, and in the thumb-board.

To "shift" a character, press that character, and drag vertically upwards for about 1 key-height. The character will be inserted uppercase (or lowercase, if caps is on). This also works for symbols, like :; \/ "' on the thumb-board, and the numerics on the stylus-board.
To backspace, press any key, and drag to the left at least 1.5 key-widths. Doesn't matter what key, it backspaces one character.

The latter seems a bit wierd. You have a big fat backspace key in both keyboards. In the thumb-board at least, why not remove the backspace key? You would have a full-width slice of the screen at the top. Use it either for a larger typing buffer, or better, show a slice of the screen, kind of like the stylus-board does. This would allow seeing IM responses, which is one of the main reasons people seem to want transparency.
Once you get used to tap-drag typing, you'll find it's excellent.

As for your design, icerabbit, I think the built-in board wastes too much space, and you waste even more. You have 2 shift keys, and a caps-lock. I see no need for more than one shift key. One tap for shift next key, Two taps for caps-lock. (One tap exits caps-lock.)
The selectors for the 3 keyboard panes should be smaller than stock -- I don't need to hit them with my eyes shut.
Your spacebar is huge, I can understand the built-in one being 2 normal keys, but I'm not sure why you have it as wide as 4 keys. And even your normal keys are wider than the stock ones.

If you change all that, then you'ld have room for even more keys, which I would like.

I don't really see the point of shifting rows to get a qwerty layout, unless you plan to perform nearest-match analysis of some sort where if you're vertically on the border between 2 rows, and horizontally on the border of two keys in the top row, it knows you must have meant the key you're centered over in the bottom row. I guess that might help.
But I don't try typing without looking at the keyboard :), so I have no trouble with the rows being non-staggered. The only argument I see for qwerty is so you know which area of keyboard to look for a given key in; final acquisition is by eye anyway.

Just my 2 bits, and meant in the best way.
But I think the lesson to be drawn is this: Nokia should let us define custom keyboards, then we would all look like: :D