What woud you realistically like to see in the N900? [Archive] - Page 6 - maemo.org

iamNarada

09-11-2008, 12:12 AM

Yes and no. It doesn't compete directly with any S40 or S60 devices because the OS is different enough to create a unique experience.

And price has not been published for any future model(s), so it remains to be seen how they stack up against other N-series products, SIM or no SIM.

Finally, Nokia's OS future is at an interesting crossroads right now. We have maemo. We bought trolltech. We released Symbian to the open source gods. Anything can happen from here. ;)

Hmmmm. HMMM I say. Well, looking back, even to relatively recent history, say the n95 or n96; both of them debuted at a higher price than the n810 was first offered at. Are you perhaps insinuating that the next tablet will maybe be a bit more expensive?

In some cases, the price difference can be fairly significant, e.g. I think the n95-3 is currently close to $200 more than the n810 (feel free to correct my numbers). I'm struggling to believe that people would pay that much of a premium if the capabilities of the device were the same..

And indeed, now, or in the very near future, both of the OSs in question (maemo and s60) will be open source. Product convergence? I freely admit that I am not at all familiar with the inner workings of either OS, as in how different the experience is for the developer. I'm just sayin.

Texrat

09-11-2008, 12:17 AM

Are you perhaps insinuating that the next tablet will maybe be a bit more expensive?

No. But look at the N810-- offered for around $400 USD at first. At the same time I could buy some N-series phones for close to that... so not necessarily so big a difference.

I truly have no idea what if any product convergence between S60 and maemo could take place. Probably none. Maybe both become parts of the groundwork for an entirely new OS someday (note: that is entirely my speculation and I have no knowledge of any such plans or rumors).

GeneralAntilles

09-11-2008, 12:27 AM

No. But look at the N810-- offered for around $400 USD at first. At the same time I could buy some N-series phones for close to that... so not necessarily so big a difference.

The N810 debuted at $479 (the N800 was $399 and the 770 was $359)

Oh, and it's Maemo, damnit.

iamNarada

09-11-2008, 12:42 AM

The N810 debuted at $479 (the N800 was $399 and the 770 was $359)

Oh, and it's Maemo, damnit.

The n96 debuts at $895 (without contract of course). The n95-3 at $699.

Texrat

09-11-2008, 04:26 AM

The n96 debuts at $895 (without contract of course). The n95-3 at $699.

Those are not the only Nseries devices. And who pays list?

danramos

09-11-2008, 05:13 AM

We released Symbian to the open source gods. Anything can happen from here. ;)

Where can we get a hold of this open-sourced Symbian OS and just how much of it is actually open-sourced?

danramos

09-11-2008, 05:37 AM

I was thinking of going with Boost, actually, but finally went with T-mo. The allure of EDGE caught up to me.

Oddly enough, there were, for a while, 3 "best plans" in the US, depending what you were after; T-Mo with unlimited data (tethering allowed) for $6 on top of a $30 voice plan, Sprint's SERO with blazing fast unlimited data, and tethering readily sneakable for $30, IIRC, (and a contract), and Boost, for next to nothing, no contract, and unlimited, but slow, data. And each of the three uses a different, incompatible technology. That, in a nutshell, is the reason a single integrated radio is bad. (Cost and size, of course, is why having three radios is bad.)

An empty slot, with modules available for various networks, is a clean solution that fixes everything. The only reason not to implement it is lack of a really suitable standard for the cards. (Hint to Nokia, start working on one!)

Does Boost let you use their handset to share the web access to the tablet? Does the Sprint Everything plan let you do that? I think I saw a thread float by about that... might need to seek it out.

Texrat

09-11-2008, 08:28 AM

Where can we get a hold of this open-sourced Symbian OS and just how much of it is actually open-sourced?

Um... maybe it's best if I just link you to a wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbian_OS

iamNarada

09-11-2008, 08:44 AM

Those are not the only Nseries devices. And who pays list?

All the early adopters who have been waiting, waiting, waiting for their fix since.....well, too long. THATS WHO! :D

allnameswereout

09-11-2008, 10:37 AM

Benson

09-11-2008, 11:52 AM

Does Boost let you use their handset to share the web access to the tablet? Does the Sprint Everything plan let you do that? I think I saw a thread float by about that... might need to seek it out.
They don't stop you; I'm not sure if it's a technical TOS violation or not, but a number of people do it. SERO (yeah, it's now become Sprint Everything, and like double the price, but basically the same) forbids it, but you can still get by with it on many phones with additional software.

Benson

09-11-2008, 11:57 AM

I believe it could be just a tiny bit smaller and work well as both. But of course I could use such a thing and have to admit I was wrong afterward...

IMHO, it could be the same size as the N800 and work well as both. :p
But I expect I'm one of the less fashion-conscious; being seen in public with a device the size of a small laptop held up to my ear wouldn't bother me. (The ergonomics of using an Eee as a phone, however, would bother me; the N800's cool ergonomically, though.)

Texrat

09-11-2008, 12:39 PM

I actually agree, Benson. The tablets make really good desk phone replacements, too. ;)

tso

09-11-2008, 01:16 PM

IMHO, it could be the same size as the N800 and work well as both. :p
But I expect I'm one of the less fashion-conscious; being seen in public with a device the size of a small laptop held up to my ear wouldn't bother me. (The ergonomics of using an Eee as a phone, however, would bother me; the N800's cool ergonomically, though.)

i would be more worried about my wrist and arm for holding onto the bulk of the tablet for any extended call.

still, i have a bluetooth handsfree, so...

but then it seems its even less fashionable to use those (maybe unless your using a jawbone or that apple one, two guesses why)...

tso

09-11-2008, 01:18 PM

Keynotes - Symbian & Qt. The best of both worlds (http://www.smartphoneshow.com/page.cfm/action=Seminars/SeminarID=8) by Mr Benoit Schillings, CTO, Trolltech on Smartphone Show 2008, London. Keynote to be held on 22 octobre from 10:50 till 11:15.

indeed, i suspect that we will see more and more cross-compilable apps.

hell, it may even happen that nokia uses QT to make available phone tools on linux...

vvaz

09-11-2008, 02:12 PM

I don't want phone capabilities in tablets. Why?

- price
- size; IT is too big to make good phone; I much prefer having two devices than one bulky.

allnameswereout

09-11-2008, 05:08 PM

indeed, i suspect that we will see more and more cross-compilable apps.

hell, it may even happen that nokia uses QT to make available phone tools on linux...

Like Trolltech's Greenphone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenphone) based on Qtopia? Trolltech has shifted development of Qtopia to Neo FreeRunner.

BTW, the toolkit is called Qt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(toolkit)); not QT.

tso

09-11-2008, 05:22 PM

proper capitalization was never one of my strong points ;)

Nyrath

09-11-2008, 05:55 PM

Ordinarily the capitalization doesn't matter. However, TrollTech made the dubious decision to call their framework Qt, which is far too close to Apple Computer's video solution "QuickTime" or QT.

allnameswereout

09-11-2008, 06:34 PM

Ordinarily the capitalization doesn't matter. However, TrollTech made the dubious decision to call their framework Qt, which is far too close to Apple Computer's video solution "QuickTime" or QT.

Perhaps its the other way around.

Qt (pronounced "cute" by its creators) [...]

Haavard Nord and Eirik Chambe-Eng (the original developers of Qt and the CEO and President, respectively, of Trolltech) began development of "Qt" in 1991, three years before the company was incorporated as Quasar Technologies, then changed the name to Troll Tech, and then to Trolltech.

The toolkit was called Qt because the letter Q looked appealing in Haavard's Emacs font, and "t" was inspired by Xt, the X toolkit

Apple released the first version of QuickTime on December 2, 1991 as a multimedia add-on for System Software 6 and later. The lead developer of QuickTime, Bruce Leak, ran the first public demonstration at the May 1991 Worldwide Developers Conference, where he played Apple's famous 1984 TV commercial on a Mac, at the time an astounding technological breakthrough. Microsoft's competing technology — Video for Windows — did not appear until November 1992.

Besides, one of the above sucks. ;)

The .qt extension is also used by Qt more often than anyone uses it for QuickTime.

Nyrath

09-12-2008, 12:42 PM

Perhaps its the other way around.
I stand corrected.

Benson

09-12-2008, 03:34 PM

Besides, one of the above sucks. ;)

Good point, but QuickTime sucks, too. :p

johnkzin

09-12-2008, 04:29 PM

As for the card slot "that can fit all card adapters", I'm not sure what that means, because none of my 3 laptops has any such thing. The union of my laptops' card slots would be: ExpressCard/34, SD/XD/MS, and type III PCMCIA, with no laptop having more than two of them. If you meant either an ExpressCard or PCMCIA, I can't see how those could be fit without substantially enlarging the device.

To support XD (which are much shorter than SD), the combo slot leaves the SD sticking out partway; none of these are suited to a pocketable device, IMO. One reasonable option would be a CF slot, which would allow a CF->PCMCIA dongle, except that PCMCIA is essentially dead; SD and USB seems like the most useful possibility without wasting a lot of space.

Actually, you could do a PCMCIA or ExpressCard slot the same way you do an SD/XD card slot: you have a shallow slot that leaves the card hanging out. If you put this on the top edge of the N810, with the "top" facing the back face of the N810, then you could put various cards in, have them stick out the top, and still allow the screen to slide up (because the card's top bulge would be facing toward the back of the NIT).

So, think about a PCMCIA or ExpressCard slot right where the N810's power button is. The slot's top side is the back of the N810. It runs the full depth of the N810, except for the connector space needed at the other end of the device. The rest of the card would stick out the top of the N810.

The advantage of picking PCMCIA would be that they make caddies for both CF and ExpressCard cards, so 1 PCMCIA slot could function for all 3 device formats. But, it also happens to have the largest door size, so that's a problem. And, I would argue against CF for the same reason you argue against PCMCIA -- it seems to be a dying format. I see fewer and fewer of the cards out in the wild. Especially for things like WWAN access.

The other problem is that this would probably have to do a bit a dance with the battery, and that area that the N810 WME uses for its WiMAX radio.

Such a slot would, however, give you several things like: no need for a second SD card slot, as those who want one can just plug in an SD->PCMCIA (or SD->CF or SD->ExpressCard) card reader.

Also, it would end the debate about WWAN radio access: you'd just get an ExpressCard WWAN radio, possibly an ExpressCard->PCMCIA caddy, and then just worry about having the appropriate card drivers.

Several other custom interfaces would also be taken care of ... they probably make CF IRDA devices, and things like that, for example.

I like the idea, but I also see that it has potential for being rather difficult to implement, even WITH the expectation that cards will stick out the top of the N900. It would be easier if the N900 had 2 small batteries instead of 1 medium size battery (the two smaller batteries I'm thinking of are the ones in the Nokia 6301, for example). Then you could just have the slot be center top, descending through the back of the device. And then put the two smaller batteries on either side of it. This would also give the added advantage of hot swappable batteries.

johnkzin

09-12-2008, 04:32 PM

I think that the sim was not only the most popular suggestion, it was also the most unpopular suggestion.

And that will probably the only widely agreed upon statement wrt to 3G/WWAN on the NIT ;-)

danramos

09-12-2008, 04:41 PM

Um... maybe it's best if I just link you to a wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbian_OS

Yeah.. that's what I thought. That doesn't seem very open source at all yet. I'm not even sure that it should be in conversations about open source OS's until it actually is.

johnkzin

09-12-2008, 04:54 PM

It's too big and clumsy to be a nice phone. If you make it smaller and more phone-shaped it'll make a bad Internet Tablet. Most people have already got a phone already (at least one - the workplace may force another on you). When I look for a phone I look for a small nice phone. When I look for an Internet Tablet I look for the biggest screen size that I can still shove into my jacket pocket. Bad phone.

Most cell phones make lousy phones, in this regard. In fact, I haven't ever seen a GOOD cell phone in this regard. Anything that isn't shaped like a landline handset is pretty much s**t in this regard (even clamshells). And THAT would require the NIT to be a bit bigger.

Most people use a headset of some form (bluetooth, wired, whatever), and that renders the size/shape of the NIT itself completely irrelevant to the discussion of using it for making phone calls.

And, really, in this regard, it's already being used for phone calls (Gizmo and Skype). The argument that making phone calls on the NIT isn't viable is already refuted and wasted typing. The argument isn't "should we be able to make phone calls on the NIT" ... we already can. Answered and finished. The device's shape already works in this regard. Move on.

The argument is "which types of phone networks can we use for making those calls". Right now, we can use proprietary VOIP (Skype and Gizmo) and open VOIP (SIP). What's being asked for here is extending this to cover cellular/mobile voice networks.

The reason most people ask for a sim card in the NIT is to use 3G. Except for the problem with US providers and anti-tether,lock-in contracts (which wouldn't make life easy for sim-NIT owners either, mind),

Except that that's a huge straw man argument. It's almost completely irrelevant.

I have a Nokia E61i. I also have a T-Mobile contract. The two have nothing to do with eachother, other than the fact that I have my T-Mobile SIM in my E61i. Everything works (except the Euro 3G, obviously). Lots of people make GSM compliant devices that just need a SIM card. And the carriers will happily sell you a SIM card (prepaid card only, contract with a free or cheap phone that you can use for backup, etc.).

And I could have just as easily used it with an AT&T SIM card. With their pre-paid $20/30 days unlimited data option.

If a carrier wanted to support the device, sell it as a contract discounted phone, whatever, great. Bully for them. But it's not even remotely required.

(and, by the way, if the card was plugged directly into the NIT, it wouldn't be "tethering" so "anti-tether" plans wouldn't matter)

those people tend to forget that the Way To Do It is to use your Bluetooth phone and tether the NIT.

It's "The Way To Do It" because the options suck, not because it's the best possible option. No one "forgot" this, contrary to your condescending assertion. You seem to be forgetting, though, that there each possibility has pros and cons, and being limited to one option means that people who don't fit that one options pro/con list are left out in the cold (or with poor half-assed capabilities).

Then keep replacing the phone when better tech comes out, instead of replacing the NIT. I've gone through 3 phones in the period I've owned my N800, moving from GPRS to 3G and now to Turbo 3G along the way. Without having to replace my N800, and not having to buy yet _another_ carrier contract.

The same could be done with a Mini-PCI-Express module, or an ExpressCard slot -- you only have to re-buy the network interface, not the whole device.

And, let me get this straight... you're defending not having to re-buy your NIT by saying "I had to re-buy my phone". So, either way, you have to re-buy a device. But with a WWAN-NIT, you only have to carry _1_ device, instead of 2.

And "yet another carrier contract" -- you didn't have to do that with your phone? If you didn't, then you didn't get the discount. Same options if we're talking about a WWAN-NIT. You can buy the NIT off-contract and use your existing SIM card and service, no problem. If you buy on-contract, you get the discount.

Really, your arguments vary between condescending non-truths, moot statements, or self-contradictory statements that end up being the same with or without the WWAN inside the NIT.

johnkzin

09-12-2008, 05:01 PM

Just to clarify. My support of the sim slot extends to data only connections. As other people have said.

The NIT is too big for a phone,
voice plan cost
Numerous voice networks (there are less data networks)

As I pointed out, the size of the NIT is irrelevant to it's being used to make voice calls.

And, it having the ability to make voice calls doesn't mean you have to use a voice calling plan. Tell your carrier "I've put my SIM card into a Data card, so give me a data calling plan". Go from there.

johnkzin

09-12-2008, 05:06 PM

- size; IT is too big to make good phone; I much prefer having two devices than one bulky.

No. It's not.

In addition to what I've said already (about not holding it to your face), the N810 is only barely a little longer than the E61i, and only slightly wider (like 1 or 2 mm wider). It's form factor is already rather close to other phone offerings.

The "it's too big" argument is just flat out wrong.

vvaz

09-12-2008, 05:11 PM

N810 is only barely a little longer than the E61i

And E61i isn't good form factor for phone.

Also your definition of "most" as "most people use a headset" is... strange. Really, if I see two people per week using headset it is plenty.

ps. I live in center of 2mln city - not desert.

danramos

09-12-2008, 05:19 PM

johnkzin

09-12-2008, 05:22 PM

And E61i isn't good form factor for phone.

But the point is, it's not an unprecedented phone size. And, it's quite usable in that way. The reason I used a headset is not wanting to hold _any_ size phone in my hand, up to my face. Rather have my hands free for other stuff. It has nothing at all to do with the phone's size.

Also your definition of "most" as "most people use a headset" is... strange. Really, if I see two people per week using headset it is plenty.

ps. I live in center of 2mln city - not desert.

The exact opposite for me (my bias being: in/around silicon valley). The only people I see talking directly into phones are people who aren't likely to buy a NIT in the first place (lower income, lower gadget interest or sophistication in general, etc.). Everyone who buys smart phones, etc. -> headset of one kind or another.

johnkzin

09-12-2008, 05:39 PM

..but ..but ..I already use my N800 to make calls with Gizmo. Are you telling me to stop? If I were to get a wireless data plan, you better believe I could and probably would use my N800 for voice calls just as I already do. :P My only problem with a N900 having a cell phone radio is the lock-in and eventual uselessness of the cell radio when they phase out whatever it is. I prefer having a module for radio if anything at all. Additionally, not having it would help lower the initial cost.

And the purist argument against having a WWAN radio in the NIT is already moot anyway. The N810 WME exists. That's a WWAN radio in a NIT.

There's 2 false arguments going on wrt to "3G" for the NIT:

Not a good device for making voice calls -- Moot: the NIT is already used for making voice calls.
A WWAN Radio built in is bad because of X -- Moot: the NIT already has a WWAN family member, the N810 WiMAX Edition.

Anyone who is resting their arguments against 3G upon things that fit those 2 statements either has already proven to be wrong, or is expressing a moot argument.

The actual arguments are:

Which WWAN Radio networks should be supported? -- If Nokia is going to support something as niche as WiMAX, why not also support something that is very widely (globally, even) deployed, like WCDMA? They can already do that and support the 3 major flavors (Euro, Asian, AT&T*) with a single chipset. Nokia even already has quite a bit of experience there.
Which types of voice calls should be supported? -- If you do add WCDMA and/or EVDO, why _not_ also add GSM and/or CDMA for voice, SMS, and MMS? Why would you ONLY allow VOIP calls if the chipset probably already gives you the capabilities for non-VOIP calls?

So:

If we have a WiMAX edition, why NOT also have a WCDMA edition?

If we have a WCDMA edition, why NOT support GSM, voice, SMS, and MMS?

* I'd love to see T-Mobile-USA support added to that, but I expect that that will follow as soon as it's economically feasible to add that to the chipset ... the hurdle is really "why not have a WCDMA Edition"?

danramos

09-12-2008, 05:49 PM

So:

If we have a WiMAX edition, why NOT also have a WCDMA edition?

If we have a WCDMA edition, why NOT support GSM, voice, SMS, and MMS?

* I'd love to see T-Mobile-USA support added to that, but I expect that that will follow as soon as it's economically feasible to add that to the chipset ... the hurdle is really "why not have a WCDMA Edition"?

I think you just illustrated the argument AGAINST embedding a cell radio in a NIT and a good argument for what I've been saying--put a slot in there where we can buy a radio separately and CHOOSE the carrier and radio we wish to have. Making multiple 'editions' of a product is terribly wasteful and expensive.

Benson

09-12-2008, 06:22 PM

Actually, you could do a PCMCIA or ExpressCard slot the same way you do an SD/XD card slot: you have a shallow slot that leaves the card hanging out. If you put this on the top edge of the N810, with the "top" facing the back face of the N810, then you could put various cards in, have them stick out the top, and still allow the screen to slide up (because the card's top bulge would be facing toward the back of the NIT).

So, think about a PCMCIA or ExpressCard slot right where the N810's power button is. The slot's top side is the back of the N810. It runs the full depth of the N810, except for the connector space needed at the other end of the device. The rest of the card would stick out the top of the N810.Actually, not bad. I must confess I do not like the idea of the top end sticking out (pocket issues), but it would be workable. You've just inspired me to pull the ExpressCard/34 remote out of my laptop (******ed IR remote that just stores in the slot; I've no real cards for it), and hold it up on the back of my N800. What I see, I begin to like.

The advantage of picking PCMCIA would be that they make caddies for both CF and ExpressCard cards, so 1 PCMCIA slot could function for all 3 device formats. But, it also happens to have the largest door size, so that's a problem. And, I would argue against CF for the same reason you argue against PCMCIA -- it seems to be a dying format. I see fewer and fewer of the cards out in the wild. Especially for things like WWAN access.Yes, and I don't know what signals we can get off our SoC, much less the OMAP34xx, but I know we've got USB (which seems to be what most WWAN cards use), PCIe and PCI both seem longer shots. A USB-only ExpressCard/34 (or maybe even a /54, if it seems helpful) is comparatively easy to add.

The other problem is that this would probably have to do a bit a dance with the battery, and that area that the N810 WME uses for its WiMAX radio.Depends; it could be mounted on the battery door with a flex-cable, simplifying that greatly.

Such a slot would, however, give you several things like: no need for a second SD card slot, as those who want one can just plug in an SD->PCMCIA (or SD->CF or SD->ExpressCard) card reader.

Also, it would end the debate about WWAN radio access: you'd just get an ExpressCard WWAN radio, possibly an ExpressCard->PCMCIA caddy, and then just worry about having the appropriate card drivers.

Several other custom interfaces would also be taken care of ... they probably make CF IRDA devices, and things like that, for example.:D:D:D

I like the idea, but I also see that it has potential for being rather difficult to implement, even WITH the expectation that cards will stick out the top of the N900. It would be easier if the N900 had 2 small batteries instead of 1 medium size battery (the two smaller batteries I'm thinking of are the ones in the Nokia 6301, for example). Then you could just have the slot be center top, descending through the back of the device. And then put the two smaller batteries on either side of it. This would also give the added advantage of hot swappable batteries.
I'd rather see dual, hot-swappable batteries, but it would be less change, hence more likely to make it, to mount the card slot in the door. In a production unit, the case-back would have to connect to a connector with a flexible cable. The USB test-pads used for factory flashing would work nicely for a N810 mod, though.

Interestingly, the BP-4L and BP-5L seem to be practically the same size. From that, online pictures of the N810, and the N800 & EC/34 sitting on my desk, I wonder if the Mugen 3.5Ah battery that's available could have such a slot added to its casing, but off to the left, not centered.

(This is getting a little OT, as we don't want the N900 to merely be suitable for hacking something together out of third-party components. But it would be a cool mod, and I think it would actually be feasible.)

I'm seeing EC/34 EDGE modems for ~$140, N800 back covers for ~$20; I'll have to look at the possibility of adapting a BP-4L for the N800 (and frankensteining the N800 and N810 battery doors), and EC/34 connector/slot hardware, but this is actually looking feasible. And involving no mods to the card itself (the biggest single investment), if I did fail, I could resell that, or use it in my laptop.

Oh, by the way, you've pretty well sold me on suitability of the ExpressCard form-factor; it's not as big as I was thinking. :D

Pardon me while I go shopping for components...

johnkzin

09-12-2008, 06:37 PM

I think you just illustrated the argument AGAINST embedding a cell radio in a NIT and a good argument for what I've been saying--put a slot in there where we can buy a radio separately and CHOOSE the carrier and radio we wish to have. Making multiple 'editions' of a product is terribly wasteful and expensive.

While I don't completely agree with you that it's a solid argument AGAINST multiple editions, I will say that my preferred model is in fact having a module over something built in. My ranking is probably:

1) some module interface, maybe ExpressCard -- though, heavily depends upon having the right drivers available for the NIT. Extra bonus: if you can make it so that you can do data, txt, and voice all at once.

2) many editions (probably 3 initially: no-WWAN, WiMAX, and WCDMA, I doubt anyone, at this point, would make an EVDO version ... though eventually there would be a 4th edition with LTE)

3) no built-in WWAN option at all.

I think by far, #1 would be the best and most ideal.

I also think, BY FAR, that #3 is absolutely the worst of all possible plans.

Wes Doobner

09-12-2008, 06:48 PM

god this thread is getting stupid.

allnameswereout

09-12-2008, 06:49 PM

My only problem with a N900 having a cell phone radio is the lock-in

Understood, but that is because its a licensed spectrum in contrast to DECT, BlueTooth or WiFi.

and eventual uselessness of the cell radio when they phase out whatever it is.

Thats a moot point. There are all kind of backward compatibilities. You were able to use GPRS 5 years ago, and you'll be able to use GPRS in 5 years, too. The same is true for the popular implementations of 3G. Yes, you never know. A telco could go kaboom. We might enter in a Great Depression, or a war, or a black hole... but these networks were rolled out with major infrastructure investments.

If you'd argue: well, soon 4G is out, and my current $device can't use that, yes, you have a valid point. However new != better, and this is an inherent feature of hardware, and also true for USB 3.0, BlueTooth 3.0, 4G, WiFi 802.11i, WiFi 802.11g, and so on. Its even more an inherent feature of embedded hardware.

To mitigate this the Sharp Zaurus had a CF and a SD card. However, on-board storage was minimal (except C3x00 series), and it did not have on-board WiFi, BlueTooth, or GPS. Most Zaurus users ended up with a SD card for storage, and a CF card for WiFi (only supporting 802.11a/b). While there were CF cards providing GPS you couldn't use them because you already needed a WiFi card.

On a NIT this is potentially different because a NIT already has BlueTooth, WiFi and the N810 even GPS. However in this Age you can't expect users to carry around all kind of devices, batteries, cables, and so on. The default ones are already more than enough. That makes a USB 3G not a good option although it'd use about 400-500 mA while in use, and about 70 mA when idle (can be disabled too, ofcourse). So, if the NIT would have CF, PCMCIA, or USB (normal connector) this'd open a wide perspective of possibilities. Add to that being able to power the device over USB, and the fact such USB controller shouldn't be wasting much space in contrast to PCMCIA or CF.

tso

09-12-2008, 07:10 PM

the thing about wimax is that many see it as a extended range wifi, and therefor not tied to the evil that its the mobile operators.

sad thing is that most wimax implementations so far are using licensed frequencies. so no chance for a urban area to pop up a couple of wimax antennas gotten of the shelf and hooked into some peer or transit provider, municipal style...

thing is that for me any kind of 3G radio in the tablet would bring the price up without adding much in the way of utility.

i already own a phone that i can use for those times that i cant access a wifi connection. and that happens so rarely, that paying for two subscriptions/plans would be overkill. instead i can use the one phone connection i already have with any device that has bluetooth or a usb port (if i remember to bring the cable).

so a 3G radio would basically be expensive dead weight.

but thats me. some others may want a one device solution. to them i would say to grab a HTC or iphone.

oh, and using the tablet for voip, not this guy. i carry a phone, i use a phone, simple as that. i would much rather see xmpp get a single voice and video standard in place then sign up for skype, gizmo or some other voip provider.

on the other hand, i would not mind seeing a CF slot ;)

oh, and did people see this recent development on the neo freerunner:
http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS6565189083.html

i wonder if nokia could provide for something similar on the next tablet ;)

that is, expandability by bulking it up...

dont know about others, but my favorite toy growing up was lego ;)

sjgadsby

09-12-2008, 07:37 PM

Most people use a headset of some form (bluetooth, wired, whatever)...

Really? I see headsets in use so rarely, I find this surprising. Is there published data on this?

GeneralAntilles

09-12-2008, 07:51 PM

A WWAN Radio built in is bad because of X -- Moot: the NIT already has a WWAN family member, the N810 WiMAX Edition.

WiMAX really isn't comparable to 3G, especially not when you throw voice in the mix.

Really? I see headsets in use so rarely, I find this surprising. Is there published data on this?

As with most of the proponents of a cellular radio in this thread, it seems to be just a lot of made up statistics and hot air.

allnameswereout

09-12-2008, 08:37 PM

the thing about wimax is that many see it as a extended range wifi, and therefor not tied to the evil that its the mobile operators.

No, it has nothing to do with WiFi. WiFi is an unlicensed spectrum for short range. WiMAX is a licensed spectrum for medium range.

Also, not all WiMAX access providers are (old) mobile operators earning money from people who pay by the minute to speak to one another. That is one of the reasons it is exciting.

sad thing is that most wimax implementations so far are using licensed frequencies.

Yeah, and knives are used to cut something.

so no chance for a urban area to pop up a couple of wimax antennas gotten of the shelf and hooked into some peer or transit provider, municipal style...

That is what unlicensed spectrums are for, but only short range can be unlicensed.

thing is that for me any kind of 3G radio in the tablet would bring the price up without adding much in the way of utility.

For you, indeed, but I'd say a device meant to be used on the Internet (and relying on this for functionality) should easily provide access to the Internet.

i already own a phone that i can use for those times that i cant access a wifi connection. and that happens so rarely, that paying for two subscriptions/plans would be overkill. instead i can use the one phone connection i already have with any device that has bluetooth or a usb port (if i remember to bring the cable).

Thats great for you, but normal people need to care about 2 devices, and normal people aren't able to always get a legal WiFi connection.

With another device there is another point of failure, you need to care about 2 batteries, you need to care about 2 stable devices, you need to carry 2 devices, you need to carry cables for 2 devices, you need to start up 2 devices. Oh wait... you want to use navigation? Go grab yet another device.

I want one small, stable device which is able to be used for navigation, audio, video, Internet, PIM. Integrated and synced. And yes, it might cost something more than 500 USD indeed.

so a 3G radio would basically be expensive dead weight.

For you, yes. You already own a phone, and are apparently happy with it.

oh, and using the tablet for voip, not this guy. i carry a phone, i use a phone, simple as that. i would much rather see xmpp get a single voice and video standard in place then sign up for skype, gizmo or some other voip provider.

Earlier you expressed unhappyness about mobile operators, now you argue against SIP. SIP is great if you have 24/7 connectivity.

on the other hand, i would not mind seeing a CF slot ;)

IIRC CF doesn't allow enough I/O.

EDIT: Wrong, standard & specs have considerably evolved.

oh, and did people see this recent development on the neo freerunner:
http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS6565189083.html

i wonder if nokia could provide for something similar on the next tablet ;)

ISPs love DVB-H for it decreases their bandwidth. Phones with such capability are heavily subsidized by telcos here.

dont know about others, but my favorite toy growing up was lego ;)

..and your current one is your mobile phone? ;)

allnameswereout

09-12-2008, 08:42 PM

As with most of the proponents of a cellular radio in this thread, it seems to be just a lot of made up statistics and hot air.

-1 lack of audi alteram partem
-1 flamebait
-1 guilty by association/generalisation
-1 leadership bonus

Total score: -4.

Thesandlord

09-12-2008, 09:09 PM

Look, all the N900 needs is the following:

-5 Ghz 16-Core ARM/x86 hybrid processor
-AGPS, with the cool free satellite internet that only hackers from Die Hard know about
-Hologram Projector
-Voice Recognition
-Solar/Kinetic/Wind power (no recharge, infinite battery)
-Taser to shock the iPhone users
-Enough graphics power to emulate a few PS3s
-super high res multitouch, folding screen, that can stretch to any size and resolution, and provides tactile feedback and raised surfaces (as well as holograms)
-Virtual surround sound
-Everything else I cant make up (use your imagination)

Oh, and under 200 bucks please!

tso

09-12-2008, 09:27 PM

I want one small, stable device which is able to be used for navigation, audio, video, Internet, PIM. Integrated and synced. And yes, it might cost something more than 500 USD indeed.

if so, why did you get a tablet?

..and your current one is your mobile phone? ;)

no, data networks/connections. my current phone is a fairly unimpressive feature phone from sonyericsson...

El Amir

09-12-2008, 09:54 PM

johnkzin

09-13-2008, 12:20 AM

but thats me. some others may want a one device solution. to them i would say to grab a HTC or iphone.

The iPhone is far from being an all-in-one solution. Unless you narrow your definition of "all" to being a few specific things.

HTC has a couple of devices that come close to "all in one", but they're REALLY _HUGE_. Like the "advantage" and "shift". Not even close to pocketable.

tso

09-13-2008, 12:32 AM

the advantage is not that much bigger then the N810...

http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/17196-advantage-vs-N810-vs-Apple-iPhone-vs-Pack-Of-Playing-Cards

johnkzin

09-13-2008, 02:13 AM

the advantage is not that much bigger then the N810...

http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/17196-advantage-vs-N810-vs-Apple-iPhone-vs-Pack-Of-Playing-Cards

Huh. I never looked at its actual dimensions. I had just seen pictures of people working with it and carrying it/etc. And it just looked like it was 2-3x bigger than an iPod. Like maybe closer to the size of the Samsung Q1 (non-ultra).

Learn something new every day.

TA-t3

09-13-2008, 07:40 AM

Most people use a headset of some form (bluetooth, wired, whatever),
I have the opposite impression. I don't believe that's true at all, in fact. Many start out with headsets (I'm one of them), but eventually it's put away because it's too much of a hassle. I've just counted through about 40 people and one of them used a headset, nobody else did.

And, let me get this straight... you're defending not having to re-buy your NIT by saying "I had to re-buy my phone". So, either way, you have to re-buy a device. But with a WWAN-NIT, you only have to carry _1_ device, instead of 2.

What you describe is actually the 3rd option, not a built-in sim card slot but some kind of adapter that could be replaced. I have never seen such a thing so I'm not going to argue for or against that at all. I'm certainly not willing to go into a discussion about that, what _I_ argued against was SIM card slot or not.

And "yet another carrier contract" -- you didn't have to do that with your phone?

No, I didn't.

If you didn't, then you didn't get the discount.

I most certainly did. The first of those phones were almost free. The second the same. The third one was about $90. It's just a case of doing this in a group. I have BTW always argued for simplistic, cheap phones with BT and 3G and nothing else, as a good companion to a NIT.

Same options if we're talking about a WWAN-NIT. You can buy the NIT off-contract and use your existing SIM card and service, no problem. If you buy on-contract, you get the discount.

Really, your arguments vary between condescending non-truths, moot statements, or self-contradictory statements that end up being the same with or without the WWAN inside the NIT.
I'M NOT DISCUSSING BLOODY WWAN! Will you please stop trying to drag me into a discussion I didn't even enter. I VERY CLEARLY argued against a built-in SIM card, nothing else. Who's the condescending one here? YOU're the one building up a straw man argument here.

allnameswereout

09-13-2008, 11:42 AM

@ John, I did not write that. It was mistakenly added in my post.

if so, why did you get a tablet?

The topic concerns a future tablet.

Bundyo

09-13-2008, 01:29 PM

I have the opposite impression. I don't believe that's true at all, in fact. Many start out with headsets (I'm one of them), but eventually it's put away because it's too much of a hassle. I've just counted through about 40 people and one of them used a headset, nobody else did.

Yeah, i have a BT headset and it sits in a drawer at home from some time now. If it was stereo and multipoint, i'll probably use it ('cause i listen to music quite often on the go), but now its just another complication. :)

johnkzin

09-13-2008, 02:56 PM

What you describe is actually the 3rd option, not a built-in sim card slot but some kind of adapter that could be replaced. I have never seen such a thing so I'm not going to argue for or against that at all. I'm certainly not willing to go into a discussion about that, what _I_ argued against was SIM card slot or not.

PCI-Express Mini-Card for HSPA/UMTS/EDGE/GPRS (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=430-2352&cs=19&c=us&l=en&dgc=SS&cid=27530&lid=627063#Overview)

And they're not the only maker of PCI-Express Mini-Cards. Nor is it a terribly new product (HP had one on the market at least 2 or 3 years ago).

I'M NOT DISCUSSING BLOODY WWAN! Will you please stop trying to drag me into a discussion I didn't even enter. I VERY CLEARLY argued against a built-in SIM card, nothing else. Who's the condescending one here? YOU're the one building up a straw man argument here.

What EXACTLY do you see as the difference between "whether or not you should have a WWAN built in to the NIT" and "whether or not you should have a SIM card slot built in to the NIT"?

The only sensical way you can differentiate them is if you're biased about WWAN technologies. Such as: "you should be able to use a WiMAX WWAN, but not an UMTS/HSPA WWAN". And that's an argument I'd love to hear.

We've got 4 WWAN choices: CDMA/EVDO, GSM/UMTS, WiMAX, and LTE ... with LTE not being deployed at all yet. Which of these WWANs do think should or shouldn't be available built in to the NIT? We know you're already against GSM/UMTS and LTE, because you're against the SIM card. What about CDMA/EVDO and WiMAX?

allnameswereout

09-13-2008, 03:04 PM

GlobeTrotter/Option for example http://www.option.com/products/overview.shtml for example, also also see Linux 3G project.

tso

09-13-2008, 03:16 PM

The topic concerns a future tablet.

ah, so your here on the forum, not because you have one, but would want one if it had some kind of 3G connection and could do that phone thing?

openmoko.org is somewhere on the web, have fun ;)

allnameswereout

09-13-2008, 03:22 PM

ah, so your here on the forum, not because you have one, but would want one if it had some kind of 3G connection and could do that phone thing?

If you don't like the subject of this thread or where its leading to you're free to ignore it.

openmoko.org is somewhere on the web, have fun ;)

OpenMoko doesn't have 3G support.

Texrat

09-14-2008, 05:16 AM

Oops, too much time between official announcements. That always correlates with a rise in testosterone. :D

Aisu

09-14-2008, 08:56 AM

Oops, too much time between official announcements. That always correlates with a rise in testosterone. :D

I'm sure you could lower that and restore peace/order if you were to... oh... I don't know... give us a bloody hint atleast! :D What would happen if iTT imploded due to a lack of official news!? How would you feel if we all died in a tragic... a tragic... ehm.... forum fire! Yeah... :p

iamNarada

09-14-2008, 11:52 AM

Oops, too much time between official announcements. That always correlates with a rise in testosterone. :D

Is that a personal observation or has this revelation permeated the PR core at NIT central yet? If not, perhaps, you could, at the very least, make them aware of the ..... climate and their underlaying dynamics, in the event that should they so desire, they could, maybe, rectify the situation.

GeneralAntilles

09-14-2008, 11:59 AM

Is that a personal observation or has this revelation permeated the PR core at NIT central yet? If not, perhaps, you could, at the very least, make them aware of the ..... climate and their underlaying dynamics, in the event that should they so desire, they could, maybe, rectify the situation.

Why don't we give it about 4 days?

iamNarada

09-14-2008, 12:26 PM

Maemo Summit 2008? Well, I can...wait that long I guess....

Texrat

09-14-2008, 10:39 PM

Is that a personal observation or has this revelation permeated the PR core at NIT central yet?

All of my observations are personal, not official corporate views. See disclaimer below.

And as I have said here many, many times, I am constantly communicating issues raised here back to the mothership (and I'm not the only one, just the most visible). Believe it or not, my meager efforts have actually made some difference. I hope that continues to be the case.

eng_houssam

09-15-2008, 11:25 AM

I wanna get in n900 supporting for arabic packet language

allnameswereout

09-16-2008, 09:21 AM

BTW, I'd like to see something like GNOME-Do (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GnomeDo) on the NIT because this is a intuitive way to start an application (and do other tasks).

I wanna get in n900 supporting for arabic packet language

Thats one of those small things overlooked. If there are enough people requesting this, it might be added, because Nokia cannot have insight how many people are interested in this. I suggest you look around in Bugzilla for this specific feature (bug report) and if it isn't there, add it. :)

konttori

09-17-2008, 03:18 PM

well, someone can easily make a python or vala version of gnome do. It's not rocket science.

Anyway, can someone now summarize what seems to be the offering based on Aris comments?

Texrat

09-17-2008, 03:21 PM

If there are enough people requesting this, it might be added, because Nokia cannot have insight how many people are interested in this.

If we don't at least have a reasonable suspicion, I'd be shocked.

lma

09-21-2008, 08:42 AM

Anyone notice this (http://www.flickr.com/photos/thoughtfix/2869594903/) slide (there were a couple more but I don't see them anywhere online) yet?.

Ignore the screen content for a moment and look at what's around it. Looks somewhere between the N800 and N810 in width, front-mounted webcam (presumably the HD camera is on the back as it should be), front facing speakers again (probably to make room for the HD camera and HSPA antenna), no menu/home/etc buttons (so there's got to be a QWERTY slider with them behind it).

I suppose it could be misdirection, but it's the best concrete info on the actual device design that we have seen so far.

tso

09-21-2008, 09:00 AM

indeed, i took it for the N810w, but now that you have drawn attention to it, it seems the nokia logo and the Nxxx brandings have been swapped around.

could just be a product rendering tho, and not any kind of final design...

Bundyo

09-21-2008, 09:18 AM

They said that there are not actual devices yet, so that's more likely only a render...

moshing

12-08-2008, 08:05 PM

TV-Out with Nokia Video-Out Cable CA-75U included

please please

pritty please with christmas on top

yerga

12-08-2008, 08:24 PM

TV-Out with Nokia Video-Out Cable CA-75U included

please please

pritty please with christmas on top

The Fremantle kernel patch has interesting lines with "RX51_JACK_TVOUT"
But one thing is that the kernel allows it, and very different is we see this feature in the device out of the box.

Benson

12-09-2008, 01:47 AM

The Fremantle kernel patch has interesting lines with "RX51_JACK_TVOUT"
But one thing is that the kernel allows it, and very different is we see this feature in the device out of the box.

Very interesting. It's worth noting that RX51 looks like a definite product ID. Possibly not destined for final production, but I'd guess it is, and it's definitely a step better than arbitrary non-model-associated defines.

Does anyone know if any other RX-nn models exist corresponding to non-production models? I seem to remember a page on hardware IDs in the old maemo.org wiki, but I searched and couldn't find it, so it looks like it may not have made the transition...

GeneralAntilles

12-09-2008, 01:57 AM

Does anyone know if any other RX-nn models exist corresponding to non-production models? I seem to remember a page on hardware IDs in the old maemo.org wiki, but I searched and couldn't find it, so it looks like it may not have made the transition...

http://wiki.maemo.org/Codenames

I've never seen a RX designation that didn't make it to release, so it's pretty safe to assume that the RX51 is the "N900".

Benson

12-09-2008, 02:31 AM

Hmm... after finals I'll have to dig into that stuff. Sounds good so far. :D

And I, for one, will henceforth speak of RX-51 rather than N900.

benny1967

12-09-2008, 05:09 AM

Maybe somebody said this before, but as I only recently started to use the WebDAV space my ISP offers me as part of my package, I'd love to see seemless WebDAV-integration with the file system, very much like it's done with Bluetooth and UPnP now.

It would be cool to set up a WebDAV-account via the system settings and have it accessible in every application's open/save and in the file manager.

speculatrix

12-12-2008, 11:55 AM

given that the ipod, iphone and variants have a relatively universal connector for A/V, it occurs to me that one of those on the tablet would give us access to the myriad 3rd party accessories around.

tso

12-12-2008, 01:22 PM

not going to happen. apple allows the license of the plugin end, but attempt to implement the ipod/iphone end and your company will bet a carpetbombing of lawyers before you can finish the idea...

now if the rest of the industry could come up with a similar port and make it available for anyone to implement, things would be interesting...

dont forget, its more then audio and video out, its also input for media selection, and maybe even output for the database so that one can implement external screens showing the selection.

lardman

12-12-2008, 02:14 PM

Nothing to stop the free software crowd from implementing it mind you (assuming they haven't reversed the two wires, just to be awkward)

tso

12-12-2008, 02:27 PM

your talking about figuring out how the connector goes, and making available plans to make a connector converter based on usb and a/v out connectors?

allnameswereout

12-12-2008, 02:53 PM

What a coincidence, new Nokia smartphones will also contain TV out (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25527). They're getting more and more like each other...

given that the ipod, iphone and variants have a relatively universal connector for A/V, it occurs to me that one of those on the tablet would give us access to the myriad 3rd party accessories around.There is nothing universal about it. They're as proprietary as you can get, except than you may license them. For a very nice fee *ahem*.

Perhaps you can show us the IEEE number of this 'standard' you are speculating about. Right, it doesn't exist. USB, BlueTooth, FireWire. Those are standards. Also with their own licensing fee, btw. So not open standards.

tso

12-12-2008, 03:47 PM

in other words, the ipod connector is whats called a "de-facto standard".

and yes, each time i read about some product or other that comes with a ipod dock or connection ability, i feel like going on a hulk rampage...

Texrat

12-12-2008, 03:50 PM

Maybe once I'm no longer employed I can be enticed into strengthening certain hints... :D

sjgadsby

12-12-2008, 04:04 PM

Maybe once I'm no longer employed I can be enticed into strengthening certain hints...

So, you'll send extra "hee hees" to tablet users who PayPal you fifty bucks?

allnameswereout

12-12-2008, 04:07 PM

Hints with Clippy for Maemo!

Texrat

12-12-2008, 04:51 PM

So, you'll send extra "hee hees" to tablet users who PayPal you fifty bucks?

LOL... no, I may be a *bit* more forthcoming about some old stuff for free. ;)

directore

02-10-2009, 05:59 AM

It's probably too late but let me add these for the record ( I already posted a long list before):

a) sensible ergonomics which on the n800 basically stinks, mainly buttons placement. While at it rethink the need for them, n800 has 12 hardware buttons, and 3 software ones on the desktop. iPhone has ONE (plus a power switch I believe) and their GUI works nicely, nokia's not so nicely.

b) accelerometer to sense the rotation and a desktop design able to switch from portrait and landscape mode.

fanoush

02-10-2009, 08:49 AM

It's probably too late but let me add these for the record

You may do some reality check in the other thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25478).

sensible ergonomics which on the n800 basically stinks, mainly buttons placement.

looks like RX-51 will have even less buttons than N810, the ones on the top will probably stay (zoom, full screen,..) the two remaining ones on the body will go or move to the keyboard. This is a guess from keyboard mapping in kernel, no defined F4,F5,F8 keys = menu, home , zoom - (?).

b) accelerometer
There is one :-)

BTW, let this thread die and continue in the RX-51 one (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25478) if you want to discuss real RX-51 features.

jlmalet

02-13-2009, 08:40 AM

must have

TI OMAP 3440 core with working OpenGL drivers
transflective screen (mandatory!)
Similar or better battery life
at least 512Mo ram
Dual SD-card slots OR MORE
NO INTERNAL FLASH : Provide more SD Card slots and a SDCARD with the OS embedded (I would like 3 slots : internal (for the OS), 2 externals)
Communication extension slot (for some gsm modem using USB, or for GPS usb device)
2 mini usb OTG with charging capability through usb

cool to have :

dual sceen with one on slider and one on top
a little wider screen (viewable area of about the size of a physical n800

Gourmand

02-18-2009, 01:06 PM

ability bind screen/keys blocking with stylus insertion to hole...
and unblocking when taking it off

and screen rotation built into system...

Capt'n Corrupt

04-10-2009, 04:00 PM

As some of you know, I've finally got an N810, and having experienced for 2 weeks, I have a bit more insight into the hardware features I would like to see in the next tablet.

Here are some wishes to add to the list:
A slimmer, smaller form factor. After owning the N810 for two weeks (and loving it), I have renewed appreciation for the small, thin form factor of the iPod touch. It is far more portable, than the N810 is currently.
Phone-Handset functionality. I understand that the tablet is not a phone, but as an internet appliance it is well suited for voip. This is reflected in Nokia playing up this aspect of the device and including voip software (RTCOMM+Skype), however, it can only hackishly be used as a handset for casual calls. It's my opinion that the N900 should be able to be held to the ear, even if it doesn't have cellular-voice capabilities.
A more durable screen/body. This could mean glass capacitive screen with a special stylus (http://www.songtak.com.tw/product.php?mode=show&cid=3&pid=202), or some crazy new technology. I would love not needing to baby the N900 near as much as I feel I need to baby the N810.

On a side note, this article released today shows that some of our wishes for the new tablet may actually come true:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4862947030.html?kc=rss

YARR!
}:^)~

The Friendly Capt'n

GeneralAntilles

04-10-2009, 04:02 PM

A slimmer, smaller form factor. After owning the N810 for two weeks (and loving it), I have renewed appreciation for the small, thin form factor of the iPod touch. It is far more portable, than the N810 is currently.

You take away the large screen, and you take away the tablet's purpose.

Capt'n Corrupt

04-10-2009, 04:13 PM

You take away the large screen, and you take away the tablet's purpose.

A little extreme, but I mirror the sentiment. Although I would not like to see much of a smaller 'screen' a little less border and a bit of a thinner form factor would make quite a large difference in portability.

YARR!
}:^)~

YARR?

Capt'n Corrupt

04-10-2009, 07:23 PM

GeneralAntilles

04-10-2009, 07:30 PM

A small built in battery that allows you to swap batteries without turning the device off.

Yeah, this is something I've wanted for a very long time (a feature I really miss from recent Apple laptops). We could probably manage this with an oversized capacitor, but at worst, I bet we could get suspend to disk working OK in Fremantle.

GeraldKo

04-10-2009, 09:35 PM

Capt'n Corrupt's wish for a smaller form factor just inspired in me a new (AFAIK) design idea. I agree, of course, with General Antilles' comment that we don't want to sacrifice any screen space. So a NIT that was no larger than the current screen would be the ideal.

On the N800 you have the d-pad and the escape/menu/swap buttons on the front (where it seems N810 users wish they were, too, rather than hidden with the keyboard). I like having hardware buttons and it seems Fremantle (unlike the iPhone) expects them, too. But having those buttons on the front requires that the unit have a larger face.

How about putting the buttons on the back? If they were positioned correctly, laid out well, and surfaced to provide tactile information, it would be easy to use them without seeing them. I'd position them vertically down the center of the back, where both righties and lefties could easily manipulate them with a forefinger, middle finger, and/or ring finger (instead of a thumb). (If you test this out, take into account that the unit would not be as wide as the current N8*0 -- in fact, it would be only about 92mm, or even say 100mm, instead of the N810's 128mm or the N800's 144mm.) The middle of the N900's back could easily be reached even by a small hand that was simultaneously being used to hold the unit.

The thing I do with the N800 that requires the most dexterity is selecting text in Tear, which requires holding down the Menu button while selecting with the stylus. I think holding down the menu key on the back for this would actually be easier with, say, my ring finger than it is currently with my thumb. And everything else would be at least as easy, maybe easier.

darethehair

04-10-2009, 09:50 PM

For what its worth, I also agree that the screen size is what I want/need in order to properly run some of the apps that I want to run. So, please, not smaller :)

I do, however, agree that a smaller overall device would be great. That means much (?) less space for the frame around the screen. Would it be feasible/practical to have all the buttons on the 'edge' of the unit, similar to the power/zoom buttons? I suppose it might get a bit awkward for finding a comfortable 'holding' position unless this was done properly...

I only have an N800, so I don't know if the N810 has a nicer shape (it probably has), but having 'tapered' edges would also be great (the N800 edges are quite 'boxy').

sjgadsby

04-10-2009, 11:50 PM

On the N800 you have the d-pad and the escape/menu/swap buttons on the front (where it seems N810 users wish they were, too...

Some N810 users. Not all.

Laughing Man

04-11-2009, 12:14 AM

I like the screen size, it's one of the things that had me choosing this device over others. The only thing size or design wise I would really want changed (besides better button placement) is that the screen shouldn't be recessed. It makes some areas hard to hit like the X to close windows (which is changed anyway in Fremantle but still). Ideally it should be straight flat, kinda like other devices out there.

daperl

04-11-2009, 09:52 AM

This design seems like a good start

3332

Link to engadget article (http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/08/sahpr-s600-pmp-its-like-a-sharp-just-far-more-dull/)

shadowjk

04-11-2009, 10:54 AM

I have both N810 and N800. I had N810 over half a year /before/ getting a N800. I prefer the placement of dpad and menu key on N800.. something to consider about shrinking the frame is that the tablet becomes harder to hold in one hand as the "handle" area shrinks. Or, I guess you could make the kickstand edge softer so that it isn't painful to hold tablet by the extended keypad :)

fpp

04-11-2009, 11:36 AM

One more wish before the weekend!
The Fujitsu Stylistic series of Slate PCs has a feature that I would LOVE to see in the N900:
A small built in battery that allows you to swap batteries without turning the device off.
On the stylistic slates, the battery allows for 5 minutes of uptime --more than enough for a battery swap. This would be very handy for extended usage periods that require continued uptime. Even 1 minute uptime should be enough for you to take out the old battery and put in the new (assuming you had it ready). Thankfully, such a battery could be very small and (hopefully) wouldn't hurt the form factor of his brave new unit!

Not to sound like an old saw, but again, the Psion Series5 had this over ten years ago... it was a small, long-life lithium "pill" (the sort you find in watches, only a bit larger) that would keep your system alive while you swapped the AA batteries (or if they ran down on you). Of course, there was no Flash memory back then, everything was in RAM, so the functionality was sort of vital... :-)

Eric G

04-11-2009, 11:38 AM

Being left handed, I really like the placement of the D-pad on the N800. It makes it very easy for me to use the tablet one handed.

johnkzin

04-11-2009, 11:58 AM

Things I have learned about what I want in a device, from having the G1:

a physical 5 row keyboard is a must, and better ergonomics than the N810's keyboard are a must (the G1 is very nice in this regard).
non-recessed screen.
a well designed touch screen is not a substitute for a pointing device, thus the pointing device needs to ALWAYS be available, not just when you open the device. I can deal with a plain keyboardless tablet if it's in the 7"-9" screen size AND has the ability to use USB and bluetooth keyboards AND it can display enough of the application on the screen while the virtual keyboard is up (the Q1 non-ultra did this well, with split translucent thumb keyboards; or if you were to do the portrait mode of the iPhone keyboard, only where the top half of the screen is big enough to display a full terminal window) ... but not on my pocketable. The screen is too small to still have a usable view of the application while thumb-typing on a virtual keyboard.
a micro-trackball is a terrible pointing device, I want a dpad.
a stylus should be optional ... some touch screens don't register them at all, and that's bad. The BEST stylus I've seen is the one for the Tube -- a guitar-pick like shape on the phone's lanyard.
having buttons on a non-moving shoulder/chin is much better than having some of your buttons move away from you whenever you open the device (ie. like the 2 buttons on the face of the N810).
while an asymmetric shoulder arrangement (like the G1, which only has one shoulder, the "chin") isn't as annoying as I thought it'd be, it's still a little annoying.
while a kickstand isn't necessary, some form of screen elevation is (ie. either a "tilt screen" or a "kickstand" is a must, and I'd greatly prefer the tilt screen because the kickstand gets in the way of the ports; though a kickstand like the one on the back of the Samsung Q1 Ultra might be acceptable).
proper placement of the expansion ports is a must. On this one, the G1, the N800, and the N810 all FAIL. Comfortably holding the device while typing ... while charging the device and/or using the wired headset ... is an extreme annoyance.
Separate ports for charging and wired headset are a must (the G1 uses a single port for charging/data and headset, and it's annoying).
Charging via USB is the best thing to happen in human civilization since sliced bread and peanut butter. Ok, maybe penicillin goes into this group too. But, yeah, that's how good charging via USB is.
even though a physical keyboard is a must, some form of dialing and txt entry is necessary even when the device is closed -- on the G1, I often wish I could do T9 text entry on the existing virtual number pad. (sometimes I only have one free hand, but need to send a message or reply to one, or even just make a quick note)

Those are the things I would like to see applied to the design of a pocketable.

Speaking generally, I'd start with either the Nokia N97 (http://www.pdadb.net/img/nokia_n97_1.jpg) or HTC Touch Pro 2 (Rhodium 100) (http://www.pdadb.net/img/htc_touch_pro2_2.jpg), only scaled up to a 4.1" or 4.3" 800x480 screen. I'd change the design so that only the screen slides (like the Sidekick Slide) (http://img.phonescoop.com/img/p/470/h2743.jpg). On the shoulders, I'd put a 5 way dpad, and 3 or 5 buttons (non-phone: home, back, menu; phone: add call and hangup); whether the buttons were all on one shoulder (the right/bottom shoulder, like the G1) or spread out around the shoulders (like a sidekick) is up for debate. I'd have the screen do slide and tilt to reveal a G1-like 5 row keyboard, only I'd add a control and an escape key to the keyboard.

So, in terms of face, button layout, and keyboard, a larger version of the HTC Touch Pro 2, with shoulders (so the buttons you see on the far right still there, but on the shoulder, adding a menu button, and then maybe putting a 5 way dpad on the near left), and preserving the 5 row keyboard, just adding an escape key since it already has a control key (it should be possible both to keep the 5 row keyboard, and have the shoulders, since the device will be bigger) (you could probably re-use the arrow keys on the Rhodium, since the dpad will be on the left shoulder, right near your thumb; I'd put a shift key, a control key, and 2 other useful buttons there, then I'd put the escape key where the "caps lock" is, and put a shift key where the existing control key is).

As you hold the device like a N800/N810, open G1, or open sidekick, the mini-USB charging/data port would be on the lower right (facing down, but close to the right end). The 3.5mm audio port would be on the upper right (facing up, but near the right end). Thus, neither of these ports would interfere with holding the device in your hands while using the keyboard. The USB host/OTG port (mini or micro) would be on the lower left, as would some form of micro-DVI-I or micro version of the Apple Display port. In order to give as much battery space as possible, the microSDHC card slow would be on the upper-left. I might be convinced that you could swap the place of the microSDHC card and the audio port, and MAYBE have the audio port face off the short side of the device, as long as its very close to the corner to avoid interfering with your hands while you type.

Now, if the N900 were like that, it would be OUTSTANDING. With built in GPRS/EDGE/HSPA, if it turns out that it's usable as a phone/messenging device (via Google Voice, and/or Zer01 service), then I would be all over it. But, as I've said elsewhere, my pocketable has to be both an IT/PDA and a phone. I'm not going to carry 2 pocketables.

johnkzin

04-11-2009, 12:26 PM

Actually, looking PDAnet's feature list for the N97 and the Rhodium, they would be excellent starting places for the N900 (the changes I suggest above, adding shoulders and such to the Rhodium, could just as easily be applied to the N97 ... the N97 would just need to have a 5 row keyboard). The N97 has a few wins, and the Rhodium has a few. Hopefully with a larger device, you'd be able to both increase the battery (and battery life) as well as use the best of both device's features (the Rhodium's GPS, the N97's 5MP camera, etc.).

daperl

04-11-2009, 12:40 PM

GeraldKo

04-11-2009, 12:50 PM

This is funny. Eric G says he likes the n800 dpad where it is because he's left handed; I like the n800 dpad where it is because I'm right handed. And the first time I saw the G1 I thought, "the keyboard's upside-down and the screen folds out the wrong way." Crazy.

Yeah, I'm right-handed and like where the N800 D-Pad is too. My guess is that if it were on the other side, Eric G would find that he's perfectly happy using it with his right hand; and that we right-handers wouldn't have any trouble with it being on the right side, either. I don't think it matters which side it's on.

Capt'n Corrupt

04-11-2009, 01:04 PM

If videogame consoles have taught us anything, it's that it doesn't really matter which side the d-pad is on. Despite a majority right-handed public, all modern videogame controllers feature the d-pad on the left side.

Left handed vs. Right handed only seems to matter when writing, all other interactions can be easily trained.

YARR!
}:^)~

IncanCapt'n

GeraldKo

04-11-2009, 01:06 PM

I wish there were ONE MORE BUTTON on the face of the N800 (and hence on the face of the N900). I'd like a pseudo-Shift key or Toggle Button or whatever you want to call it. This is what it would do: In a text app like Notes or in a Browser, it would act as a Shift key does in combination with a mouse on a desktop; that is, you could tap with the stylus to place the cursor somewhere in the text, then scroll to a second point, and if you click on that second point while holding down the pseudo-Shift key, all of the text between those two points would be selected. (Just like on a desktop, you would, depending on the particular webpage, be selecting more than just text.) In a file manager, you would use the pseudo-Shift key to easily select multiple files.

Those are the main reasons I want such a key, but other apps could also use it as a modifier key, so that you would get an alternate response from clicking on an icon. E.g., if you clicked an application icon on the desktop, while holding down the shift key, maybe you would get Properties (Get Info) instead of launching the app.

One issue that comes up, though, is the right-versus-left placement of such a hardware button would matter, since you would be using it in combination with the stylus.

Capt'n Corrupt

04-14-2009, 05:11 PM

Here's an easy one. Get rid of the expansion port mechanism on the N810. I think it's more complicated than normal, and near impossible to get the MiniSD card out. It is also dangerous as it's very easy to put the card in at an incorrect angle, and since it requires quite a bit of force to go in, can result in a damaged card. It should be replaced by a MicroSD slot (perhaps 2) that provides very easy access to the card.

As it stands, card swapping is very difficult to do. In order to swap cards currently, I need to be sitting at a desk and is as such not an on-the-go procedure. It should be as easy as opening the door, sliding the card from the reader, and popping in a new one!

YARR!
}:^)~

Corrrrr

KristianW

04-15-2009, 06:13 AM

Here is one more reason for a slightly shorter N810 :
(without reducing screen size)
To reach T-G-B comfortably when thumb typing.

Or, why not, the same form factor with a bigger screen and a split keyboard.
The D-pad could be a row of five keys on one shoulder, as already suggested.

( At least in Sweden most pocket calendars are just the size of the N810.)

dwould

04-15-2009, 08:24 AM

Whilst it is no doubt WAY to late to speculate about the n900 design. (if it's not too late to change then release is much further away than I'd like)
I have to say that I'd gladly take a new device that looks *exactly* like the n810, but with faster processor/graphics accel, 3g and better camera.
but if I could have my wish then the screen would be flush to surface and about 10mm wider within the existing dimensions of an 810.
give me a | somewhere on the keyboard. maybe give me a scroll wheel on the side of the case (top right shoulder?)
camera on back, webcam on front.
That's about it. I don't need the device any smaller, and certainly don't want to trade battery life for less size.

Honestly though, if it was exactly the same as my 810 both hardward and software. but with faster processor and a 3g connetion option, I'd still be happy.

Capt'n Corrupt

04-15-2009, 09:24 AM

Honestly though, if it was exactly the same as my 810 both hardward and software. but with faster processor and a 3g connetion option, I'd still be happy.

I feel much the same. For all of my suggestions, I'm very pleased with the N810 hardware, though it sometimes doesn't come across when posting. I'd gladly buy a N810+ with some form of WAN (HSPA/Wimax/LTE), a faster processor (OMAP3 will do nicely), and more ram (~512MB please!).

YARR!
}:^)~

"Corrupt" said he.

GeneralAntilles

04-15-2009, 09:37 AM

and more ram (~512MB please!).

256MB is realistic, 512MB really isn't. Part availability, cost, power usage.

Texrat

04-15-2009, 10:59 AM

I wouldn't bet on that ^.

hee.

GeneralAntilles

04-15-2009, 11:16 AM

I wouldn't bet on that ^.

Well, looking at the kernel, it looks more like 128MB, so. :) Assuming you're not confusing flash, though, which seems likely to be over 16GB.

SD69

04-15-2009, 11:59 AM

On the N800 you have the d-pad and the escape/menu/swap buttons on the front (where it seems N810 users wish they were, too, rather than hidden with the keyboard). I like having hardware buttons and it seems Fremantle (unlike the iPhone) expects them, too. But having those buttons on the front requires that the unit have a larger face.Based on previous threads, I think Fremantle supports hw buttons but does not necessarily expect them. And it may not be Fremantle that supports the hw buttons, but the UI or some other layer on top of Fremantle. I am eagerly waiting for an answer to this.

How about putting the buttons on the back? If they were positioned correctly, laid out well, and surfaced to provide tactile information, it would be easy to use them without seeing them. I'd position them vertically down the center of the back, where both righties and lefties could easily manipulate them with a forefinger, middle finger, and/or ring finger (instead of a thumb). (If you test this out, take into account that the unit would not be as wide as the current N8*0 -- in fact, it would be only about 92mm, or even say 100mm, instead of the N810's 128mm or the N800's 144mm.) The middle of the N900's back could easily be reached even by a small hand that was simultaneously being used to hold the unit.
I think there is a problem with circuit board layout in putting buttons in the middle, should be near the periphery sort of like I/O connectors. Of course, there could be an innovative solution to that problem.

dbec10

04-16-2009, 05:44 PM

Well I for one am glad that the next tablet is not the same hardware and software as the current generation. What we have now is good for now, but in a years time...

attila77

04-16-2009, 06:17 PM

Well, looking at the kernel, it looks more like 128MB, so. :) Assuming you're not confusing flash, though, which seems likely to be over 16GB.

128MB would be disappointing, just short of shooting yourself in the foot. With a semi-official dual-toolkit approach and even more eyecandy, not to mention fennec et al, 128MB is the point where you end up on swap in no time - and not even a quad core A9 cortex can help you then.

GeneralAntilles

04-16-2009, 09:05 PM

128MB would be disappointing, just short of shooting yourself in the foot. With a semi-official dual-toolkit approach and even more eyecandy, not to mention fennec et al, 128MB is the point where you end up on swap in no time - and not even a quad core A9 cortex can help you then.

I don't buy 128MB myself, it's from an early kernel version so there isn't really a lot of stock to be put in it.

TA-t3

04-17-2009, 04:24 AM

attila77

04-17-2009, 05:28 AM

IIRC the change from 128MB to 256MB of RAM on the Pandora only increased the cost some 10 euros or so.

In Nokia quantities, the price difference should be even less - that's why it would be a bad choice to go with 128. As GA said, 512 is a bit on the heavy side, though, so the most sensible choice based on my/your/anybody's educated guess is 256. We'll see.

TA-t3

04-17-2009, 07:00 AM

Well, as GA also said, 512MB isn't really available either.. RAM has been discussed quite a bit on the Pandora forums (as popular an issue there as here) and afaik you can't yet buy 512MB pop for the omap3. In half a year or next year it'll probably be a different story though. Anyway I'm certain 256MB will prove to be a good size.

Capt'n Corrupt

04-17-2009, 08:19 AM

It seems that 800x480 screens come in smaller sizes than 4.1". This article (http://i.gizmodo.com/5215678/sidekick-lx-2009-is-lean-mean-3g-twittering-machine-with-a-better-screen) showcases the Sidekick LX with a 854x480 screen that's 3.2 inches. In other words, the device has a phone form factor with higher than NIT resolution. Would this type of a screen be good on an internet tablet?

I'm on the fence about this one. While I would like a smaller device, I'm thinking that a <4" screen might make viewing uncomfortable. Then again, I have pretty good vision, so I doubt I'll mind that much.

I'm interested to hear your input.

In the meantime, I'll be keeping a lookout for reviews of the Sidekick LX, with a particular eye on reports of the screen. It may be that the public likes this size? Time will tell.

YARR!
}:^)~
Signed, Capt'n

GeneralAntilles

04-17-2009, 08:26 AM

I'm on the fence about this one. While I would like a smaller device, I'm thinking that a <4" screen might make viewing uncomfortable. Then again, I have pretty good vision, so I doubt I'll mind that much.

Higher DPI is always better, but less than 4" and you lose the tablet's edge. I could see, perhaps, having another model with less than 4 inches alongside, but definitely not the only one.

gerbick

04-17-2009, 08:29 AM

A flush bezel.

GeneralAntilles

04-17-2009, 08:35 AM

A flush bezel.

. . . sounds like a great way to end up with a hole in your screen.

johnkzin

04-17-2009, 02:20 PM

I have a flush bezel on my G1 ... no holes in my screen.

As for 3" vs 4" ... I definitely prefer a 4" screen for my pocketable. Even if it's the phone I might hold up to my head. I definitely prefer that the "N900" not to turn into a device that's significantly smaller than the N810. If anything, I want a G1, N97, or HTC Rhodium* that's as big as the N810.

That said, that's my preference. I'm actually quite happy with the G1, and if the N900 was able to deliver 800x480 resolution, tilt screen, better slide out qwerty keyboard, microSDHC card (or two), WWAN, and a battery sized for decent life time, but in a G1 sized device instead of an N810 sized device, I'd probably be happy with that hardware, too.

(and I'm slowly warming to the idea of N900+GoogleVoice as my phone, over my G1... it'll be something interesting to evaluate)

(* only, not running WinMo)

fanoush

04-17-2009, 04:28 PM

IIRC the change from 128MB to 256MB of RAM on the Pandora only increased the cost some 10 euros or so. As 256MB is now available it would be strange to go below that on a new device - it's probably a safe guess to say we'll see 256MB.
It was $8.63 USD (http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?showtopic=45024&st=90&p=675163&#entry675163). That's why beagleboard rev C was planned with price 159. Since then they kept price at $149 USD so I guess prices went down.

EDIT, now it is a bit more
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/US/DKSUS.dll?Detail?name=557-1436-ND
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/US/DKSUS.dll?Detail?name=557-1435-ND

I don't know about absolute values and dollar exchange rate at that time.

ekul

04-18-2009, 10:45 PM

Having just got an n810 a few weeks ago I have to say it's an excellent device but there are some areas it can be improved for the next version.

Ideally the n900 would be the same form factor with the sliding keyboard. They have managed to keep the n810 thin despite the slider and without a keyboard (even the excellent onscreen keyboard from the n800) the device would feel like it was missing something. I would love the slide to go a few mm higher next time as sometimes the top row feels just slightly cramped.

I'd also love to see hardware pg up / pg dn buttons on the device. They could easily be added as mirror buttons of the home/back buttons just on the right hand side. I use the device left handed (cursed as I am with that affliction) and I can promise buttons where your hand often rests is never an issue. If they don't add buttons they need to at least keep the ones they have. I don't buy apple's one button fanaticism. There are times when a well considered hardware button is exactly what a device needs. The n810 menu button is a perfect example. In fullscreen mode on an n810 the menu button means a title bar is not needed at all so you can reclaim otherwise wasted screen space. On iphone apps that do more then fart all have menu bars of some kind because presenting the user with options can only happen on the screen. That screen space is wasted (and hurts even worse since iphone is much lower resolution). Buttons for the sake of buttons don't make sense but the n810 is very close to my ideal layout. There are no buttons I don't use regularly and they are placed in very natural positions.

As a lefty I'd like to see them move the ambient light sensor as I have to disable it to use the device. If they don't it's not the end of the would but since 10% of people are left handed it would be nice to be considered for once. Every mobile device has at least one or 2 use cases where the design that is supposed to save time and effort ends up getting in the way. The n810 actually has the least lefthanded issues of any device I have ever used since I moved the scroll bars to the left using gtk themes and turned off the sensor so I hope the n900 continues in that tradition.

I'd also love to see some video out features, maybe as a breakout box like on the archos devices. Being able to play videos or show pictures on a tv would be great. A switch to microsd (and a switch back to dual slots) would be great as well since mini sd didn't really catch on. Most of the mini cards you can buy are just micro with an adaptor anyway so might as well save the space.

Having seen the freemantle sample screenshots I am slightly worried nokia is going to try and make the n900 an ipod touch maxi. The n810 is so much better then a touch since it has a real keyboard and so much more screen real estate. Switching to a capacitative touch screen would be a loss too as they suck the second you want to do anything with accuracy or have to wear gloves because it's -25 outside. I'd personally be much happier with a resistive screen since they work no matter what. I actually use the stylus on my n810 more for browsing then anything else since I click the link I want first try every time. On iphone (and n810 without the stylus) I find it takes a couple stabs. I'll happily take a stylus and accuracy over 2 or 3 finger jabs a minute to not have to keep track of a small bit of plastic. All that being said moving to more finger friendly widgets is a good idea and I'm all for it. I just hope they don't go too far and take away my choice. There are times when fingers beast and others when I prefer the stylus.

I wouldn't mind being able to buy a version without 3G as well as data is far too expensive here in Canada and I certainly won't be paying for everywhere access. It seems silly to have to pay for a radio I don't plan to use.

Finally I hope the community takes the opportunity of a sdk compatibility break to clean up the extras repo. I love being able to install all those applications but at the moment it's a bit of a free for all and some firmer guidelines would go a long way.

First I'd take a page from the debian team and add a third repo. extras-devel breaks too often to use day-to-day (as it should) and software in extras can often be quite old. The debian unstable, testing and stable model offers what I think is an ideal solution. extras-devel continues to be the place where developers are free to break what they will, extras-testing offers more adventurous users the chance to use newer software with less chance of causing problems with other software they may have and developers get more bug testing before unleashing software on the general community. Extras continues to be the place to go for community maintained software. Developers would get less "how come the extras-devel package isn't working today?" questions and since once they publish to -testing they are expecting user feedback not dreading it I suspect life would be a little smoother for both devs and testers. Software like tear is under heavy development and not ready for end users but for people with a little know-how it's usable day-to-day and sits uncomfortably between the current repos. The final reason to move to a third repo is end users get better tested final packages. Developers can't test all possible cases themselves and shouldn't be expected to. A few more hand and eyes make finding bugs a lot less tedious.

Second the software categorization could use some cleanup. Finding the packages either from maemo.org or the tablet itself is a bit haphazzard. And once software installs it never seems to end up in the menu I anticipate. Perhaps my expectations are off and others don't have this experience but if such an effort is underway (or needs to be started) I'd be happy to help where I can. Even just a review of packages as they are added to the freemantle repo for sanity and consistency would go a long way to making the community more user friendly.

A bit long winded perhaps. Reading over what I wrote it feels as though I like the n810 a lot less then I do. I love this device and really hope nokia don't mess with the great recipe too much trying to improve it. A few tweaks here and there, pop in a much more powerful cpu and I'll be first in line to pick one up.

Capt'n Corrupt

04-19-2009, 03:01 PM

It would be nice if the N900 had a slightly separated keys with defined edges and a small 'bump' or different texture on the 'f' and 'j' keys so that they could be found without without looking.

I can 'almost' use the keypad without staring at the keys, but I'm not at that point yet!

I'm thinking a fifth row of number keys will put the device too off-balance when using its stand. I would rather the keys be shrunk and a small numeric keypad be placed to the right of the alphabet keyboard! This would probably require that the Dpad/menu-key be moved.

YARR!
}:^)
(^P7'N

johnkzin

04-19-2009, 04:07 PM

It would be nice if the N900 had a slightly separated keys with defined edges and a small 'bump' or different texture on the 'f' and 'j' keys so that they could be found without without looking.

I'm thinking a fifth row of number keys will put the device too off-balance when using its stand.

And require less pressure to press... and have a definitely "click" feeling when you successfully press them. The E71's key feel is MUCH better than the N810's. And, IMO, the G1 is a perfect example of how a small device can have a great key feel, and a great 5 row layout (it could fit in the same area as the N810's, I'm pretty sure).

I would rather the keys be shrunk and a small numeric keypad be placed to the right of the alphabet keyboard! This would probably require that the Dpad/menu-key be moved.

That'd be an interesting idea. Almost like the layout of the stylus keyboard, in a way.

ekul

04-19-2009, 09:13 PM

I'm thinking a fifth row of number keys will put the device too off-balance when using its stand. I would rather the keys be shrunk and a small numeric keypad be placed to the right of the alphabet keyboard! This would probably require that the Dpad/menu-key be moved.

A number pad would be nice but you're right, it would spell the end of the d-pad. A decent compromise would be to be re-label the keyboard to have the numbers in a group on the right side keys laptop style rather then along the top. The fn actions already there are traditionally above the top row anyway so moving them isn't going to be a huge shock. And with double tap fn locking it to number entry you basically have a dedicated numberpad without losing existing functions.

johnkzin

04-19-2009, 09:31 PM

it would spell the end of the d-pad.

No, it wouldn't. You'd just have to put the d-pad back where it belongs: on the face of the device.

KristianW

04-19-2009, 09:42 PM

gerbick

04-20-2009, 03:46 AM

. . . sounds like a great way to end up with a hole in your screen.
Only if you're clumsy or an idiot.

Flush bezels on countless other products out there and having a hole in your screen is not a main byproduct of said feature.

Cadabena

04-20-2009, 06:10 AM

Hey ,

How about a number keypad that doubles as a d-pad ?
It would have to be toggled somehow.
The "5" key (and perhaps 8,4,6,2) would have to be a bit bigger.

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3

8<>up , 4<>left , etc , 5<>OK

( 7 , 9 , 1 , 3 might be used for diagonal movement )

Hmm, sounds too fiddly for quick use. With the d-pad, you know that there are only four directions, and it's practically impossible to click it wrong. Also, when typing numbers and you go back, you'd have to keep switching number lock on and off. Johnkzin has the right idea; put the d-pad and back/menu/home back on the face where it belongs!

attila77

04-20-2009, 07:19 AM

That would increase device size, though :( How about dual slider, qwerty + dpad on one (big) slide, dpad + numpad on the other (small) ? And then the small slide becomes the most convenient way of (un)locking the NIT as well.

Capt'n Corrupt

04-20-2009, 04:25 PM

That would increase device size, though :(

If you're talking about re-locating the Dpad, it doesn't necessarily mean that the device must get bigger. Just shift the screen to the right to make more room on the left (or vice-versa). Many mobile devices feature an asymmetrical layout.

Of course, some individuals may have an issue with the units styling, but I think it could look quite regal if done right.

YARR!
}:^)~
select * from capt\'n order by corrupt;

johnkzin

04-20-2009, 05:17 PM

Yup. If you look at the Nokia N97, it wouldn't be too hard to move the D-pad to between the red and green buttons on the face (you'd need to make the diagonal button less diagonal, though). Which, IMO, is where it belongs :-)

You could use a dpad the size of the ones on the E61i or E71, as well. In fact, if you directly stole the ones from the E61i, you'd be able to put it in the same side-rail space that's on the N810, and you'd have a 5way dpad PLUS 8 other buttons (IMO: menu, escape, home, zoom in, zoom out, full screen toggle, and then maybe two soft buttons). Or you could use fewer buttons and make it more elegant. But, my point is, you can easily put a smaller dpad on there, and Nokia already has those smaller dpads in their parts inventory.

(or, the E71's button group, which then also incorporates the throbbing status light into the space between the dpad ring and select button)

Capt'n Corrupt

04-20-2009, 06:10 PM

<off topic>
Good gracious, the N97 is injection-molded super sex. I just learned today that this thing has TV out via the 3.5mm headphone jack; not HDMI, but it's still something. This is arguably more useful (though likely not more preferred) than HDMI as only modern sets use this. When it's likely to be used (on the road, hotel rooms, etc), you may not have the option of an HDMI set.

<off topic>
It would be perfect to have both HDMI and composite, but I fear this is quickly drifting from the realm of 'realistic'.
</off topic>

As far as I can tell, the jury's still out on determining if it is using an OMAP 3 CPU. But one can almost forgive these shortcomings with the luscious 5MP camera attached to the device WITH LED flash! Talk about a convergence device!

Imagine taking a picture and having a laptop capable photo-editing suite to edit the shot, and mail it out right after? All without leaving the old-folks-home! Oh my!

For those that don't know, hit up the following link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-6YcXoRDG0
</off topic>

With the specs of an N97 upgraded to, a higher resolution 800x480, HDMI-out, and and an OMAP 3 (which has more or less been confirmed) the N900 would be so hot, I'd have to drop it.

I think this is a good indication of what's in store for the N900... and I'm excited!

YARR!
}:^)~
Shiny, Capt'n

johnkzin

04-20-2009, 06:26 PM

Yeah, an N97 scaled up to the size of an N810, with a 5-row keyboard, E71 button group on the face, some form of video out (I'd prefer apple's new micro display port, personally), USB Host/OTG, USB client for charging/data syncing, GPRS/EDGE/HSPA, gobs of battery life, and a few software things (SyncML compatible PIM suite, compatibility with Google Voice, compatible with Redfly (for displaying on a Mac/PC/etc.), and Dalvik for Android apps) ... that would be a major dream come true :-}

But even if just the "N900 is a scaled up N97" part is true, that'd be a damn good start.

eiffel

04-21-2009, 07:06 AM

Yeah, an N97 scaled up to the size of an N810
N810 is 14mm thick. N97 varies from 15.9mm to 18.3mm thick.

So by all means let's scale up the height and width to fit a 4.x inch screen, but expect a thicker device to accommodate the better camera.

Regards,
Roger

Capt'n Corrupt

04-21-2009, 08:25 AM

That's a great point Eiffel, and one I hadn't considered. Of course, considering that the N810 is wider than the N97, a compromise may not have to be made in the thickness of the unit (excluding the camera 'bulge' of course) with a clever redistribution of the system's guts.

I have a few questions that some genious here may be able to answer:

1) Does anyone know if the N97 has a removable battery? In the interest of the N900 possibly following this form factor, this is relevant. I love that the N810 has a removable battery, but I don't think I'd trade it for all of these features, if I had to choose.

2) Does anyone know if the sources of the built-in N810 apps are open? I really quite like the N810 built in apps, but there is much room for improvement for the N900 (no images in mail kills me -- at least make it an option). I know, I know, I haven't searched, but I figured it would be interesting conversation nonetheless.

YARR!
}:^)~
'Big Bear' Corrupt

johnkzin

04-21-2009, 08:40 AM

N810 is 14mm thick. N97 varies from 15.9mm to 18.3mm thick.

So by all means let's scale up the height and width to fit a 4.x inch screen, but expect a thicker device to accommodate the better camera.

Not a problem. I can definitely live with that (my wallet is in that thickness range, about 15-18mm thick). If that thickness is the price of having an N900 which has the format of a N97, but the length and width of an N810 (and screen size to go with it), I'm game. Especially if I get everything else on that list.

GeneralAntilles

04-21-2009, 08:49 AM

2) Does anyone know if the sources of the built-in N810 apps are open? I really quite like the N810 built in apps, but there is much room for improvement for the N900 (no images in mail kills me -- at least make it an option). I know, I know, I haven't searched, but I figured it would be interesting conversation nonetheless.

Most of the important ones are, yes.

http://mxr.maemo.org/

sjgadsby

04-21-2009, 08:55 AM

no images in mail kills me -- at least make it an option

Does a hard-to-get-to option count? Half points, perhaps?

In any case, to find it you'll need to install gconf-editor. Then, use that application to investigate apps->modest->fetch_external_images.

jolouis

04-21-2009, 08:59 AM

I have a few questions that some genious here may be able to answer:

1) Does anyone know if the N97 has a removable battery? In the interest of the N900 possibly following this form factor, this is relevant. I love that the N810 has a removable battery, but I don't think I'd trade it for all of these features, if I had to chose.

Don't know 100% for sure but I would be very, VERY surprised if it didn't. Nokia is a cell phone manufacturer after all... they get huge benefits from having modular batteries that are used across multiple devices in terms of manufacturing/design costs, etc. As far as I'm aware Apple's the only one who insists on giving you non-removable batteries and that's almost entirely because of marketing (sexy "seamless design" coupled with when the thing fails, buy a new device mentality). Anyways I won't get into the big "Nokia VS Apple mentality" discussion, but...

2) Does anyone know if the sources of the built-in N810 apps are open? I really quite like the N810 built in apps, but there is much room for improvement for the N900 (no images in mail kills me -- at least make it an option). I know, I know, I haven't searched, but I figured it would be interesting conversation nonetheless.

It depends which apps you're talking about as "built-in". Modest, the email client, I'm pretty sure is open source (the built-in email app has changed two or three times with OS releases and things, and I'm pretty sure one of the biggest moves with putting modest in there, other than ticking people off initially because of some bugs, was to make it more open). You've also got a slew of alternatives for different purposes too don't forget... I know a lot of people swear by Claws for email, though it's not quite as "finger friendly" apparently it's very stable and functional. Same story with the browsers... I'm not sure exactly where MicroB stands, in that it's based on Mozilla, but I don't know how much of the actual Maemo implementation has source floating out there; but alternatives such as Tear are full out open. Some things are definitely still closed (though the list is tiny compared to even a year ago and Fermantle looks to be targetted at making this point even stronger)... the alarmD/clock apps, for example I know are definitely closed still. I'm sure there are other prevalent examples too...

sjgadsby

04-21-2009, 09:22 AM

I'm not sure exactly where MicroB stands, in that it's based on Mozilla, but I don't know how much of the actual Maemo implementation has source floating out there...

MicroB engine SVN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subversion_(software)) location: https://garage.maemo.org/svn/browser/mozilla/trunk/microb-engine/

Build instructions: http://browser.garage.maemo.org/docs/build_howto.html

GeneralAntilles

04-21-2009, 09:26 AM

the built-in email app has changed two or three times with OS releases and things, and I'm pretty sure one of the biggest moves with putting modest in there, other than ticking people off initially because of some bugs, was to make it more open

The built-in email application has changed exactly once. From osso-email (which was closed) to Modest (which is open).

Capt'n Corrupt

04-21-2009, 12:01 PM

Three amazing answers!

@jolouis
That analysis regarding the batteries is certainly encouraging! It'll be interesting to see how it's pulled off.

@GA
Thanks for the tip on mxr.maemo.org. It certainly is useful to be able to look at the code!

@sjgadsby
This information was tremendously helpful! It was one of my major gripes regarding the mail program. I now primarily use it over my web-mail client as it is certainly more finger-friendly, light weight, and well integrated (contacts et al).

Honestly, I love the integration between between the built-in apps (which is what the strategy that the pre seems to be capitalizing on). With a couple of intelligent decisions, some fixes, and of course additions (calendar? where are you?), this could be quite a good suite of apps.

@all
To add to the 'realistic' wishes for the N900. I wish there was a larger community rally on the built-in applications. It seems that there are far to few updates to the built-ins which is a shame, because they seem to provide a good starting point and integrate well with one another. Improvements could include:
1) better indexing in the media player (long song lists take much longer). SQLITE?
2) better organising with the media player (forming playlists is painful)
3) an integrated calendar. I know there are a few options (I use GPE), but something that integrates well would be lovely (does this exist?)
4) inertial scrolling on many apps (mail/media/contact). And for the love of god, please put a selection button to the right of each list object. There's nothing worse than 'inertial scrolling' and accidentally selecting an item.
5) A call log on RTCOMM and some other useful features
6) More than one incoming channel for RTCOMM (useful for 'call-waiting')
*(if you're interested, see the open-source SIP app twinkle (http://www.xs4all.nl/~mfnboer/twinkle/index.html) for some very useful features).
7) A better file manager (something with tagging and app association) as an alternative to the desktop metaphor.

I'm sure I can think of others, but this would be a nice start.

YARR!
}:^)~
app>capt'n>corrupt

Capt'n Corrupt

04-21-2009, 12:10 PM

Here's another wish:

I recall a presentation done by intel (I think) regarding hand-offs between WAN and WiFi depending on AP proximity. This would be a tremendous feature of the upcoming N900 as 3G/4G/whatever is expensive in some areas -- *cough* Canada *wheeze*. Of course, I would imagine seamless hand-offs would provide some serious challenges with persistent TCP connections, and even software that uses UDP as you'll likely get a new IP with the hand-off.

On a side note:

I'm seriously considering Rogers' expensive $37 for 1GB service. I'm using my NIT increasingly for work and it's a legitimate business expense, but as I don't have a phone, nor am I looking to get a plan, at the moment it's too expensive a proposition to tether. When the N900 comes along as it's own 3G device, I'll likely make the purchase.

Quick question: how much bandwidth would you say you consume from your NIT in a month? I'm planning in the event that N900 hand-offs are an issue.

YARR!
}:^)~
{:^)~

GeneralAntilles

04-21-2009, 12:22 PM

1) better indexing in the media player (long song lists take much longer). SQLITE?

Well, Fremantle is using Tracker (http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/).

2) better organising with the media player (forming playlists is painful)

Fremantle has something called the Multimedia Application Framework (http://maemo.org/news/announcements/media_application_framework_moves_to_open_developm ent/), which, although it doesn't say anything about the Media Player UI, should significantly lower the overhead involved in writing and maintaining media playback applications on the platform, as well as making a user's media experience more cohesive from player to player (global playlists, etc.).

4) inertial scrolling on many apps (mail/media/contact). And for the love of god, please put a selection button to the right of each list object. There's nothing worse than 'inertial scrolling' and accidentally selecting an item.

All scrolling areas should be finger draggable.

Anyway, I recommend you read over the Fremantle roadmap (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle) and pay attention to announcements (http://maemo.org/news/announcements/) as most of your existing, past and (I expect) future questions are answered there.

sjgadsby

04-21-2009, 01:27 PM

(calendar? where are you?)

Maemo 5 will include an iCalendar (RFC 2445) calendar framework (https://garage.maemo.org/projects/hephaestus/).

attila77

04-21-2009, 01:52 PM

Fremantle has something called the Multimedia Application Framework (http://maemo.org/news/announcements/media_application_framework_moves_to_open_developm ent/), which, although it doesn't say anything about the Media Player UI, should significantly lower the overhead involved in writing and maintaining media playback applications on the platform, as well as making a user's media experience more cohesive from player to player (global playlists, etc.).

Unfortunately, neither the Wiki, Ars article nor the 50+ page pdf draft outlines clearly (at least I didn't notice) how the media will be discovered by the framework itself. I'm really really REALLY hoping that the people at Nokia came up with something less braindead than the metalayer-crawler approach.

ARJWright

04-21-2009, 01:56 PM

Just had this thought, so I'm throwing it into this thread:

What if one of the next form factors for the IT were similar to the N800 in that it was all screen and small bezel. A few buttons for volume and power on the surrounding chrome and then speakers pointing up when held landscape. Resistive, multi-touch, and AMOLED would keep the profile pretty low, and allow for fancier power-management work on that end.

The included accessory would be a slip leather case that had a built in soft-touch keyboard and kickstand. The 'kicker' being that one could wrap the keyboard completly around the device and navigate the device as if the keyboard on the back were a part of the UI - something like a second screen + mouse.

From an engineering side that might be hard as all get out to program, but it would be kinda neat and definitely different.

Stskeeps

04-21-2009, 01:58 PM

Unfortunately, neither the Wiki, Ars article nor the 50+ page pdf draft outlines clearly (at least I didn't notice) how the media will be discovered by the framework itself. I'm really really REALLY hoping that the people at Nokia came up with something less braindead than the metalayer-crawler approach.

Afaik, tracker has a central spot, is open and slighty less braindead than metalayer-crawler.

GeneralAntilles

04-21-2009, 02:02 PM

Unfortunately, neither the Wiki, Ars article nor the 50+ page pdf draft outlines clearly (at least I didn't notice) how the media will be discovered by the framework itself. I'm really really REALLY hoping that the people at Nokia came up with something less braindead than the metalayer-crawler approach.

That question is answered in the top of the post you're quoting, which I'll quote here for you. ;)

Well, Fremantle is using Tracker (http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/).

attila77

04-21-2009, 02:08 PM

It seems that there are far to few updates to the built-ins which is a shame, because they seem to provide a good starting point and integrate well with one another.

My gripe was that almost every of the builtin apps had a fatal flaw for my use-case scenario. I'm just hoping I'll not be jinxed with fremantle in the same way as to ending up almost *none* of the built-ins (except for the occasinal microb and rss reader sessions).

Even this wouldn't be such a problem if there was a 'civil' way of saying no-thanks, I'll stick with claws, pidgin, mplayer, tear, emelfm et al. I hope Fremantle will be more *user* friendly in this regard without (unintentionally, I'm certain) penalizing people who opt for third party apps.

attila77

04-21-2009, 02:12 PM

That question is answered in the top of the post you're quoting, which I'll quote here for you. ;)

Thanks, but it doesn't really answer just *HOW* it will be integrated. It says rather innoculously

It can trawl through your hard drive and index existing files and data stores.

Now, what I still want to now is if this can trawl (in the mafw context) is done like in metalayer-crawler, or do we have some more intelligence and/or user friendlyness behind it ?

Bundyo

04-21-2009, 02:19 PM

http://projects.gnome.org/tracker/features.html

attila77

04-21-2009, 02:25 PM

Let me rephrase. Will it be possible to configure, limit or disable trackerd activity per directories without recompiles or hardcore .conf-console-fu ?

johnkzin

04-21-2009, 02:26 PM

Maemo 5 will include an iCalendar (RFC 2445) calendar framework (https://garage.maemo.org/projects/hephaestus/).

But will it have SyncML so that you can sync that calendar with useful external calendars (Oracle Calendar, Google Calendar via GooSync, etc.)?

And then hopefully also support SyncML for things like contacts and bookmarks.

luca

04-21-2009, 02:36 PM

(no images in mail kills me -- at least make it an option)
Try claws, it works really well

sjgadsby

04-21-2009, 02:38 PM

Now, what I still want to now is if this can trawl (in the mafw context) is done like in metalayer-crawler, or do we have some more intelligence and/or user friendlyness behind it ?

Tracker isn't closed source or a Nokia-specific technology. You can get some sense of how the underlying bits may be controlled via a look at the trackerd man page (http://linux.die.net/man/1/trackerd). You can also look at the source and try Tracker out on a Linux desktop (http://blog.ifrade.es/2009/02/25/release-release-tracker-0690/) to provide bug reports and feedback now.

Let me rephrase. Will it be possible to configure, limit or disable trackerd activity per directories without recompiles or hardcore .conf-console-fu ?

See the man page linked above.

johnkzin

04-21-2009, 02:49 PM

Try claws, it works really well

I didn't like claws at all. Horrible interface for a tiny screen.

luca

04-21-2009, 03:14 PM

I didn't like claws at all. Horrible interface for a tiny screen.

Well, I even reduced the default font-size to see more messages at once, so I obviously disagree.

attila77

04-21-2009, 03:50 PM

Tracker isn't closed source or a Nokia-specific technology.

I really appreciate the enlightening posts, but what I see in the referenced pages is what I called conf-console-fu in my previous post, not how it will be utilized by MAFW and whether any of it's configurability will be readily exposed to users by MAFW (or other elements of fremantle).

GeneralAntilles

04-21-2009, 03:54 PM

Jaffa

04-21-2009, 04:21 PM

I really appreciate the enlightening posts, but what I see in the referenced pages is what I called conf-console-fu in my previous post, not how it will be utilized by MAFW and whether any of it's configurability will be readily exposed to users by MAFW (or other elements of fremantle).

The question then, you should be asking, is "if my setup is $FOO, will Tracker eat my battery, kill my babies or run off with my significant other".

If Tracker does any of those things, it's a bug. If you don't want Tracker to index a particular directory, but you don't want to get into the low-level configuration details (and I'd be surprised if Nokia provided such a configuration UI through File Manager) then I have to ask why don't you want Tracker to index a particular directory?

attila77

04-21-2009, 05:39 PM

Tracker to index a particular directory, but you don't want to get into the low-level configuration details (and I'd be surprised if Nokia provided such a configuration UI through File Manager) then I have to ask why don't you want Tracker to index a particular directory?

Because not all media files in all directories are music and video supposed to be exposed to the user. I'm surprised this needs explanation. Have we already forgotten the joys of the 2000 ogg files in Media Player from Nokia's very own Map application happily added by metalayer-crawler ? Even today I can't use Media Player and Canola properly as they play 'random' as a various mix of music and application sounds. If the solution is not to have music and application data on the same card, that's hardly not a bug.

EDIT:What does Tracker's configuration have to do with MAFW?

The same metalayer-crawler magic had to do with media player. And since MAFW will be omnipresent and a base for a much broader audience, it will be able to make or break basically all your media apps. With the 2000 aforementioned oggs, it would mean they wouldn't just appear in Media Player, but ALL your multimedia applications. Oops.

sjgadsby

04-21-2009, 06:44 PM

Because not all media files in all directories are music and video supposed to be exposed to the user.

I seem to recall reading that Tracker will be monitoring the user's home directory and removable media, not the entire file system. However, I'm not immediately finding a reference for that when I search.

Regardless, trackerd supports simple directory inclusions and exclusions via its configuration file. Applications that install media files that should not be indexed into locations that otherwise will be, should add appropriate exclusions. Failure to do so will be a bug that should be reported to the application maker. And, should the application maker fail to deliver the necessary fix, I expect it would be a simple matter for someone else to make a tiny deb that adds the exclusion for the average, command line averse user.

Bundyo

04-21-2009, 06:52 PM

I think they are relying on inotify, so there's no actual heavy weight on the device, unless there's big activity in the monitored directories.

YoDude

04-21-2009, 09:24 PM

My appologies for not reading all of the 1,443 previous posts :eek:

Was printing support mentioned?

sjgadsby

04-21-2009, 09:39 PM

Was printing support mentioned?

Odds are good that it was; however, printing support won't be coming from Nokia (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3099#c12).

attila77

04-22-2009, 04:21 AM

I seem to recall reading that Tracker will be monitoring the user's home directory and removable media, not the entire file system. However, I'm not immediately finding a reference for that when I search.

Regardless, trackerd supports simple directory inclusions and exclusions via its configuration file. Applications that install media files that should not be indexed into locations that otherwise will be, should add appropriate exclusions. Failure to do so will be a bug that should be reported to the application maker. And, should the application maker fail to deliver the necessary fix, I expect it would be a simple matter for someone else to make a tiny deb that adds the exclusion for the average, command line averse user.

I dont' want to sound too dismissive, but considering the platform (number of 3rd party apps) and common use-cases (how many applications have user-exposable media ?), this is the wrong solution. I'm certain applications should opt-in media files and not opt-out, especially if you operate on SD level. This is why fremantle / trackerd integration CAN be smart, files belonging to debs could and should automatically be ignored f.e. by the application installer (either directly or through MAFW if possible). Otherwise, chances are almost all of 'extras' will do it wrong at first, have a bug filed, have it corrected by the author or the community, make a patch, distribute it, make wikis about it, make sticky posts with giant letters addressing developers, maybe even making a patch to the garage autobuilder to this automatically because all of the above failed, etc. This could all be avoided with a proper approach in the beginning and it's not that hard to do.

GeneralAntilles

04-22-2009, 04:32 AM

I dont' want to sound too dismissive, but considering the platform (number of 3rd party apps) and common use-cases (how many applications have user-exposable media ?), this is the wrong solution. I'm certain applications should opt-in media files and not opt-out, especially if you operate on SD level. This is why fremantle / trackerd integration CAN be smart, files belonging to debs could and should automatically be ignored f.e. by the application installer (either directly or through MAFW if possible). Otherwise, chances are almost all of 'extras' will do it wrong at first, have a bug filed, have it corrected by the author or the community, make a patch, distribute it, make wikis about it, make sticky posts with giant letters addressing developers, maybe even making a patch to the garage autobuilder to this automatically because all of the above failed, etc. This could all be avoided with a proper approach in the beginning and it's not that hard to do.

Since both projects are open and openly developed, why don't you go talk to their developers instead of wasting time speculating on it with too little information?

attila77

04-22-2009, 05:08 AM

Since both projects are open and openly developed, why don't you go talk to their developers instead of wasting time speculating on it with too little information?

I'll take it that this means you think it has some merit ;) I'm clueless what the proper place to go to would be, as it is a platform level decision.

GeneralAntilles

04-22-2009, 05:22 AM

I'll take it that this means you think it has some merit ;)

No, I think it's silly to waste your and other people's time speculating on something (especially when that speculation seems to be turning into a downward spiral of negative assumptions) when the answer is but an email away.

What really bothers me is the tendency in this community to fall back on speculation (which often heads in a distinctly negative direction) even when concrete information is readily available.

Before you spend pages of posts in speculation, consider asking the devs first.

I'm clueless what the proper place to go to would be, as it is a platform level decision.

The Tracker mailing list is here (http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/tracker-list), and there are lots of possible contacts on the MAFW project page (https://garage.maemo.org/projects/mafw/).

attila77

04-22-2009, 06:23 AM

No, I think it's silly to waste your and other people's time speculating on something (especially when that speculation seems to be turning into a downward spiral of negative assumptions) when the answer is but an email away.

Nah, we know you better than that, you said thank you in a GA way :) I know, I know, you couldn't disagree more and fail to see any sense in that. Don't worry, it's ok :D

Edit:
Before you spend pages of posts in speculation, consider asking the devs first.

Might be tricky ! See attach :D

DailyWTF courtesy of http://blogs.igalia.com/itoral/2009/03/25/mafw-source-code-goes-public/#respond

lemmyslender

04-22-2009, 08:14 AM

Off to read :)

*EDIT*
Sorry just wanted to point out that there is quite a lot of information out there. Sometimes it is easy to overlook an answer to any questions we may have.

TA-t3

04-22-2009, 09:11 AM

Quick question: how much bandwidth would you say you consume from your NIT in a month? I'm planning in the event that N900 hand-offs are not an issue.
Difficult to tell. But if I leave my NIT tethered to the phone for 3-4 hours it'll have consumed some 700KB-1MB or thereabouts. It runs the following while connected through the phone:

- gmail notifier. Checks every 10 ten minutes. I think this one uses very little bandwidth.
- telepathy (or at least I think that's what runs the chat stuff). It monitors my gtalk etc. friends (online, offline, idle etc.). Not sure how much this uses.
- email program. It checks my work mail over IMAP. This is the old email program btw, not modest. It checks every 15 minutes. I think this one is using most bandwidth. It looks like it uses some 15-30KB just to check if there's anything new. It doesn't use IMAP IDLE or any other efficient protocol. In my opinion it should really be possible to check for new mail with vastly less transfer of data (my inbox is always very small btw).

Capt'n Corrupt

04-22-2009, 03:17 PM

Difficult to tell. But if I leave my NIT tethered to the phone for 3-4 hours it'll have consumed some 700KB-1MB or thereabouts. It runs the following while connected through the phone:

- gmail notifier. Checks every 10 ten minutes. I think this one uses very little bandwidth.
- telepathy (or at least I think that's what runs the chat stuff). It monitors my gtalk etc. friends (online, offline, idle etc.). Not sure how much this uses.
- email program. It checks my work mail over IMAP. This is the old email program btw, not modest. It checks every 15 minutes. I think this one is using most bandwidth. It looks like it uses some 15-30KB just to check if there's anything new. It doesn't use IMAP IDLE or any other efficient protocol. In my opinion it should really be possible to check for new mail with vastly less transfer of data (my inbox is always very small btw).

Thanks for that, it was very helpful.

I'm thinking that I'd love the N900 to have some sort of hand-off capability when switching between WiFi/WiMAX/3G networks, though
I could survive even if this wasn't the case. It would just mean that most operations would be interrupted if I left the house as the network automatically switched. My only concern is VoIP, but I can finish up the convo before changing locations.

If I had to manually switch networks, it would be extremely disappointing. Fewer steps == better.

It would appear that I use quite a bit of bandwidth on my little unit! In the past 8 hours, I've clocked around 100MB (up and down) as displayed by the 'Connection Manager' app. Of course, this mainly includes 2+ hours of VoIP conversations that I had which I only have when I'm at home. On the road, this won't be the case, unless the situations are extreme (vacation, emergency consolation, phone meeting, etc).

So it appears as though I should be able to comfortably use HSPA with my N900 without breaking the bank (even with these ker-azy Canadian prices). It's expensive, but easily justifiable as a business expense.

I'm going to write a small cron'd script (hopefully some form a timer installed) to poll my bandwidth hourly and dump the data in a file so that I can have a definite answer as to the amount of bandwidth I consume. This is the precise reason openness rocks.

YARR!
}:^)~
UBCorrupt

Capt'n Corrupt

04-22-2009, 03:40 PM

Here's something that I *know* will be on the N900/Fremantle, that I'm glad will be included. Location awareness.

It would seem that Nokia is taking this idea of apps being location aware very seriously with developer tools to help create these types of apps. In fact, it seems to be a play that they are (at least publicly) alone on. Together with the tight integration of other OVI services, the great hardware (GPS/camera), it would appear that these services will offer a new level of depth for people on the go, or local explorers.

Even the simple act of sending a quick mail/IM with your mapped location, and a picture, can have a tremendous impact in the way we interact. Amazing!

This should provide great incentive for developers to use the OVI store. With the arsenal of devices that Nokia has coming out (including the beloved N900), they are sitting in a pretty competitive position, which will have the competition playing catch-up.

This idea of location awareness is to be talked about in the 2009 Developer Summit in Monaco which is coming up in a week (April 28-29). You can read about all of the talks here: http://www.developersummit2009.com/Agenda.1459.aspx .

I'm curious:
How would you implement a location aware app on the N900 given the hardware/software?

YARR
}:^)~
Capt'n! TETSUO!!!

Eric!

04-22-2009, 04:11 PM

I know this probably seems boring, but how about the basics in NATIVE mode:

1. OpenOffice
2. Some kind of HTML/XML/PHP Editor
3. Full-featured SKYPE not the current semi-functional version
4. Decent pure text editor. (not like leafpad or notes(which is html))
5. Image editor (gimp or something)
6. Firefox
7. Torrent Search/Download tool (like transmission but with a search tool)
8. More than one USB port and more than one memory card slot.
9. For travelers--good language translation program (for off-line use)
10. Built in firewall.
11. Make the expansion of applications from internal memory to memory cards seamless.

Den in USA

04-22-2009, 04:27 PM

yukop4

04-22-2009, 05:17 PM

linux pink hat 1.01

attila77

04-22-2009, 05:36 PM

Full feature Skype is a must!

There will likely be *some* version of Skype but with Skype's track record I suggest setting the expectations low. Really low.

Capt'n Corrupt

04-22-2009, 06:24 PM

You may want to consider RTCOMM and SIP. It's a little harder to find a good provider, but the prices are swell (sometimes lower than skype, depending on the provider), and you needn't worry about compatibility as its standardised (protocol + codecs).

For example, in Toronto vBuzzer (http://www.vbuzzer.com/)offers unlimited local plans for $50CDN/year (~$40US).

You can also buy a device to hook up your phone to your home router and 'share' your number; have your phone ring at home and on your NIT.

Plus if you're a bit of a hacker, there's little end to what you can do with an installation of Asterisk PBX on your home server.

YARR!
}:^)~
Capt'n Corrupt

GeneralAntilles

04-22-2009, 06:44 PM

Capt'n Corrupt

04-22-2009, 10:20 PM

Ah yes, sipphone.com, I remember you well. Good call!

I had sworn off Gizmo mainly due to a quirky and not well supported client on the PC, though the account seemed to work quite well.

Can the gizmo account work with other sip clients? I may use this for sip to sip calling if it's the case (my current provider charges for this)....

YARR!
}:^)~
Vorrupt

mobiledivide

04-22-2009, 11:56 PM

Gizmo account is just a product offered by Sipphone, they have instructions on how to use other clients on their website.

luca

04-23-2009, 01:26 PM

Harder to find a provider? . . . How about http://sipphone.com?

There are also the various betamax clones (http://progx.ch/home-voip-prixbetamax-3-1-1.html) (not all support sip but most do, by picking carefully you can have very good rates both calling landlines and mobiles), vyke (http://vyke.com) (a flat rate of 4 cents per call to most destinations), eutelia (http://www.euteliavoip.com) (useful if you need a free geographic inbound number in italy).

Capt'n Corrupt

04-25-2009, 07:36 PM

I'm not sure if its been made official, but I would really like to see the OVI store apps available for the N900. I feel that this will help break it out of a niche market into the mainstream. In fact, bring on the entire OVI she-bang.

YARR!
}:^)~
corrupt.ovi.com

EIPI

04-25-2009, 07:44 PM

Can the gizmo account work with other sip clients? I may use this for sip to sip calling if it's the case (my current provider charges for this)...yup, most sip accounts work well with the built in internet call app, for instance

Capt'n Corrupt

04-26-2009, 05:04 PM

Here's a pretty neat N900 software wish:

Since the N900 (at least I think) will come stock with:

1) a compass and accelerometer (orientation),
2) GPS (location),
3) 3D acceleration (rendering),
4) a camera (view),
5) and HSPA (anywhere network),

it has all the ingredients for an amazing augmented reality system!

Imagine holding the N810 as if a transparent piece of glass in the open, and seeing floating markers in the distance over the landscape, or information about what you're pointing it towards (description, history, position markers, etc). With HSPA, the tablet can automatically download the augmented reality objects from a centralised server, for a seamless user experience. It can also grab the positions of visible 'users' for neat social apps or form the basis of 'geo-games' (consider this term coined). For virtual graffiti, users could 'tag' an area with art or information.

This would also make an AMAZING star gazing app. Imagine being able to aim the tablet and 'zoom' in on distant nebulae as if it were a telescope, or see the surface of the moon in high detail! My heart beats at the thought!

Just start the app, aim the tablet, and view a virtual world juxtaposed with reality!

What do you think?

YARR!
}:^)~
AugmentedCorruption

daperl

04-26-2009, 05:32 PM

What do you think?

Dude, you're trippin' me out. I like it. Then I want my room covered with OLED wallpaper for playback.

Naranek

04-27-2009, 03:34 AM

Nokia research center has already done work with augmented reality, so it might even come directly from Nokia whe the devices are actually up to the task.

Of course it's also a possibility that they already have the tech ready, but haven't been able to make a viable business out of it, so they're holding it back :rolleyes:

lardman

04-27-2009, 04:11 AM

This would also make an AMAZING star gazing app. Imagine being able to aim the tablet and 'zoom' in on distant nebulae as if it were a telescope, or see the surface of the moon in high detail! My heart beats at the thought!

Sounds interesting, though you'd probably need to do starmap recognition to know which way you're pointing (azimuth should be ok from the accelerometers, but depending on which way the compass is orientated (and assuming it has one) it might not work properly when held up like that).

In any case it sounds doable and pretty cool (assuming the camera is able to see at least some stars tpo do the direction matching, which depends on its internals)

There's already a star map app isn't there? I wonder how hard it would be to hack heading and azimuth input into (from compass, accelerometer, starmap watching, etc.) that....

Anyway, cool idea :)

attila77

04-27-2009, 08:38 AM

This would also make an AMAZING star gazing app. Imagine being able to aim the tablet and 'zoom' in on distant nebulae as if it were a telescope, or see the surface of the moon in high detail! My heart beats at the thought!

I think QGil actually mentioned something similar in a thread some time ago. While it should be fairly easily done as a generic application, within it's own reference system (as a 'window'), it might not be that easy to link it with actual coordinates - e.g. point at a planet or star and see the relevant star map/info. The N900 lacks a compass you have on your list, AFAIK and that makes establishing reference points hard, especially if you're not moving.

computerfreek

04-27-2009, 09:25 AM

I just wish the n900 was forsale already !!!

gerbick

04-27-2009, 09:46 AM

I just wish the n900 was forsale already !!!

Not I. The OS isn't ready for primetime yet. Not by a longshot.

Capt'n Corrupt

04-27-2009, 10:44 AM

I think QGil actually mentioned something similar in a thread some time ago. While it should be fairly easily done as a generic application, within it's own reference system (as a 'window'), it might not be that easy to link it with actual coordinates - e.g. point at a planet or star and see the relevant star map/info. The N900 lacks a compass you have on your list, AFAIK and that makes establishing reference points hard, especially if you're not moving.

Interesting about the compass. I just assumed that it would include something similar as the N97 has this functionality (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbIIn5l7TY0) and it seems that there is a lot of crossover between the two devices. I would guess that the compass would be included as part of a multi-function chip.

Without a compass (magnometer), I agree, this proposition is next to impossible to pull off convincingly. In fact, everything on the list is required for a seamless AR experience.

However, I suppose we'll have to wait before determining the final aspects of the hardware!

As for a AR system. It would be REALLY GOOD if someone made a comprehensive API layer on top of QT with this functionality. It would empower designers to include this type of AR functionality without having to design it ground-up every time!

YARR!
}:^)~
Donkey korrupt

Capt'n Corrupt

04-27-2009, 10:51 AM

Sounds interesting, though you'd probably need to do starmap recognition to know which way you're pointing (azimuth should be ok from the accelerometers, but depending on which way the compass is orientated (and assuming it has one) it might not work properly when held up like that).

In any case it sounds doable and pretty cool (assuming the camera is able to see at least some stars tpo do the direction matching, which depends on its internals)

There's already a star map app isn't there? I wonder how hard it would be to hack heading and azimuth input into (from compass, accelerometer, starmap watching, etc.) that....

Anyway, cool idea :)

Thanks!

I completely agree! The starmap proposes many issues especially in light of hardware quirks.

Another issue with the stargazing app, is that when zoomed in, small movements of the device will result in HUGE movements across the sky. Still, I think it could be pulled off in a novel and educational way, with a clever enough interface!

As per my previous post. I would hope that it would be implemented as an API rather than an all inclusive app, as the uses are potentially far reaching!

Keep the ideas comin!

YARR!
}:^)~
Corrupt, eh?

johnkzin

04-27-2009, 11:17 AM

Doesn't GPS functionality automatically imply compass capability? (well, a compass capability that requires GPS signal, not like a literal internal compass)

attila77

04-27-2009, 12:19 PM

Interesting about the compass. I just assumed that it would include something similar as the N97 has this functionality

Until we see some specs, it's anybody's guess. It might very well be inertial compass (e.g. gets an estimate from GPS while moving, and then if no movement or GPS signal is presents, just adds accelerometer data to guess the heading). Unfortunately that compass drifts and isn't very accurate - might be enough for walking and general directions but not 'real' navigation. But let's not speculate :)

Doesn't GPS functionality automatically imply compass capability? (well, a compass capability that requires GPS signal, not like a literal internal compass)

Not directly. If you're moving, you can cheat and use the position difference to guess north/south. If you don't want to cheat, you can, in theory, make some guesses based on the visibility/signal properties of the satellites. That, however is very-very low resolution (not to mention unreliable). For applications as suggested above you would need a FAR more accurate compass.

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 12:54 PM

Not I. The OS isn't ready for primetime yet. Not by a longshot.

You're basing this on, what, your extensive experience with internal Fremantle builds?

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 12:55 PM

Doesn't GPS functionality automatically imply compass capability? (well, a compass capability that requires GPS signal, not like a literal internal compass)

Only if you're moving, and only assuming the signal isn't bouncing 100s of feet in every direction. A digital compass will give you that information even when you're stationary, and even with a weak fix.

attila77

04-27-2009, 01:46 PM

Until we see some specs, it's anybody's guess. It might very well be inertial compass

Run across an N97 manual excerpt by chance - the calibration process hints a magnetometer powered compass. Now, the question is just if anybody ran across anything compass-related in fremantle ? :)

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 02:29 PM

Now, the question is just if anybody ran across anything compass-related in fremantle ? :)

No, I haven't seen or heard anything.

qgil

04-27-2009, 03:18 PM

I think QGil actually mentioned something similar in a thread some time ago.

Yes, it was in ANNOUNCE: Mephemeris - Astronomy Program (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=266441&postcount=94).

danramos

04-27-2009, 04:10 PM

I just wish the n900 was forsale already !!!

I've lost patience waiting, honestly. I'd rather already have the hardware and continue to get updates than wait and wait and wait. The money I had set aside for it has already been spent on a particularly fully loaded Dell Mini9 (as folks recommended I do, elsewhere, as an impatient son of a gun that I am is want to do). :) I need my new gadget fix, dammit!

Gotta say--I'm very happy I chose the mini9 over the other netbooks!

Now, I just need the new more modern pocket-sized Linux gadget to replace my N800... and so far, I've not seen one. I'm getting pretty impatient about it.. but then I'm not sure I want to spend the money anymore since I sprung for the mini9. The long waiting and just talk-talk-talking about something that nobody can even buy or even point out a solid release date reminds me too much of the vapourware of the 80's from the likes of Atari and Commodore that never saw the light of day. I got pretty cynical after seeing that pattern a bunch of times. :) Doesn't always mean there's nothing there--but it happens enough to make me feel ranty and impatient.

Discuss! :D

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 04:14 PM

Gotta say--I'm very happy I chose the mini9 over the other netbooks!

I'm not really loving the Mini 9. The Atom is really a godawful piece of ****. Not being able to leave it sitting on a table alive and active for more than 4 hours (like I can do with my N800) is rather infuriating.

danramos

04-27-2009, 04:30 PM

I'm not really loving the Mini 9. The Atom is really a godawful piece of ****. Not being able to leave it sitting on a table alive and active for more than 4 hours (like I can do with my N800) is rather infuriating.

Not sure I follow you. I leave it on and alive for hours, monitoring it for temp and power all the time with no problems so far. I've been running Kubuntu 9.04 (beta, then RC's) for quite a while, though (almost as soon as I got it). Seems solid and stable to me. It DOES get hot at the keyboard (where it vents) when I push it too hard and so I do wish they'd had SOME kind of fan to help with that--but it never overheats and seems to run pretty solidly. I did find a bug in the Intel video driver that randomly makes the desktop restart.. but that's a driver error effecting even desktop PC's with a specific Intel video chipset similar to the one in the Mini9 and I didn't notice anything related to heat.

Anyway... this is veering into netbook discussion territory now. Let's get back to talking about the new, non-existant Nokia tablet. :D

johnkzin

04-27-2009, 04:33 PM

Not sure I follow you.

I'm pretty sure he's talking more about battery life than heat.

Anyway... this is veering into netbook discussion territory now. Let's get back to talking about the new, non-existant Nokia tablet. :D

I agree.

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 04:41 PM

I leave it on and alive for hours, monitoring it for temp and power all the time with no problems so far.

That's exactly the point. Hours, not days.

I really want an ARM-based netbook. . . .

danramos

04-27-2009, 04:49 PM

That's exactly the point. Hours, not days.

I really want an ARM-based netbook. . . .

OH! No no.. I understand you now.. and I wholeheartedly agree. A beefier ARM chipset netbook would be teh hella-hella-hella awesome. :)

attila77

04-27-2009, 04:52 PM

No, I haven't seen or heard anything.

I wonder how different will the fremantle beta be in this regard - whether the lower level stuff is more or less frozen, especially considering this would be probably one of the less useful features to implement in the fremantle alpha given to the hardwareless crowd.

Also, as already said in the other thread, it's still not a showstopper even if no compass/gyro is is there, it's just that you need something to calibrate the accelerometers to - the moon, or the brightest star/planet you can see.

Capt'n Corrupt

04-27-2009, 04:55 PM

Yes, it was in ANNOUNCE: Mephemeris - Astronomy Program (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=266441&postcount=94).

Haha! Great idea! Hopefully the tablet gets in on some of this action!

YARR!
}:^)~
Capt'nShampt'n

jandmdickerson

04-27-2009, 04:58 PM

I want looong battery life, like 10 hours of constant surfing and media player use.

johnkzin

04-27-2009, 05:09 PM

That's exactly the point. Hours, not days.

I really want an ARM-based netbook. . . .

I posted about the skynote 600 over in the competitors section. (the 680 is basically the same convertible tablet netbook, just with Andoid on it)

It's downsides are: 128M - 256M of RAM, no more; and 1-4 GB of storage. Not that bad compared to existing NITs, but pretty anemic compared to other netbooks. Even though it's a bigger screen (7"), it's still only 800x480.

Though, their current estimate for price in the US is $150, and it's definitely a convertible tablet netbook based on an ARM-11 533MHz CPU.

I do wish they had a 9" model with larger resolution, as well as options for more RAM and storage. But, at $150, it might be cheap enough to just use for cannibalization for a beagleboard and Mer, or something along those lines. That doesn't solve the screen size, but it would address any other shortcomings, I think.

They haven't returned my email asking questions about availability or options for more RAM and storage. Other messages sound like they're looking for a distributor in the US. Or suggesting that they contact the Mer team about porting to the 600 model.

Otherwise, it sounds like the Always Innovating Touchbook will be a good option.

Capt'n Corrupt

04-27-2009, 05:10 PM

Here's a request.

I love using my N810 as a phone, but it 's not without its shortcomings. For example, sometimes when I have my Bluetooth headset in, I'd still like to play music over the loudspeaker, but take calls on the headset. Similarly, I may want to listen to tunes using my headphones, but when the phone rings, I just pop in my headset (I hate keeping this thing in my ear) and automatically the sound is piped to that device.

The wish?

I wish that some of the N900 apps (namely RTCOMM) had the ability to pipe sound to different devices, based on the users setup. For example, you could have the phone ring over the loud speaker regardless if your headset was plugged in, so you wouldn't have to keep them in your ears to hear the phone. Similarly, you could play music via headphones and have the phone ring in the headphones, but take the call in a to-the-ear manner.

Currently, my N810 will ring the alarm over the loud speaker regardless of weather the headphones are plugged, the headset is plugged in, or my bluetooth headset is connected. This is a very good feature. It would be nice if it spilled over to different applications.

YARR!
}:^)~
Corrupt Sandwich

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 05:11 PM

I want looong battery life, like 10 hours of constant surfing and media player use.

goodluckwiththat

OMAP3 has better powersaving and a faster CPU, so it's going to spend less time on and doing work and more time idle for the same tasks, but the SoC isn't the only thing using power, and if you expect the screen run for 10 hours on a 1500mAh battery, you're not being realistic.

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 05:13 PM

It's downsides are: 128M - 256M of RAM, no more; and 1-4 GB of storage. Not that bad compared to existing NITs, but pretty anemic compared to other netbooks. Even though it's a bigger screen (7"), it's still only 800x480.

An ARM11 netbook isn't worth discussing (especially one with Android on it).

OMAP3440, OMAP3640 or nothing.

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 05:14 PM

I wish that some of the N900 apps (namely RTCOMM) had the ability to pipe sound to different devices, based on the users setup. For example, you could have the phone ring over the loud speaker regardless if your headset was plugged in, so you wouldn't have to keep them in your ears to hear the phone. Similarly, you could play music via headphones and have the phone ring in the headphones, but take the call in a to-the-ear manner.

The DSP audio on the N8x0 made things . . . complicated. PulseAudio should be a bit more accommodating.

johnkzin

04-27-2009, 05:20 PM

An ARM11 netbook isn't worth discussing (especially one with Android on it).

OMAP3440, OMAP3640 or nothing.

The 680 has Android. The 600 has a generic linux dist on it.

But, that's partly why I suggested using it as a home for a beagleboard. Then you're pretty much bypassing whatever their motherboard limitations are. I just don't know how feasible that'll be. I may buy one just for that purpose.

danramos

04-27-2009, 06:36 PM

An ARM11 netbook isn't worth discussing (especially one with Android on it).

OMAP3440, OMAP3640 or nothing.

Exactly.. if it's a pocket-sized computer.. I can understand living with some limitations.. but if it's going to be a netbook, I should expect that with the increased footprint should come some more capacity (battery, RAM, CPU speed, etc.) Otherwise, why bother with a netbook form factor?

The DSP audio on the N8x0 made things . . . complicated. PulseAudio should be a bit more accommodating.

We can hope.

mullf

04-27-2009, 07:20 PM

only assuming the signal isn't bouncing 100s of feet in every direction.

Modern GPS receivers should give you better resolution than this. I highly recommend the N900 use one.

johnkzin

04-27-2009, 07:28 PM

Exactly.. if it's a pocket-sized computer.. I can understand living with some limitations.. but if it's going to be a netbook, I should expect that with the increased footprint should come some more capacity (battery, RAM, CPU speed, etc.) Otherwise, why bother with a netbook form factor?

Physical size.

The N810 can do just about everything I would want/need, in terms of CPU, RAM, and storage, in a netbook. It's just too small, and not ergonomically suited for it.

If the N810/N900 had:
1) Easy way to support an external full size USB keyboard (full size in terms of the key sizes, it could be one of those "full size keys, but no number pad)
2) Easy way to support an external 7" or 9" LCD or OLED display (and such displays were easily available accessories for the N810/N900)
3) Support for displaying larger resolution on external displays

(or, instead of those, redfly compatibility)

then I probably wouldn't need/care about a netbook.

You can sort of do #1 with some adapter magic, but I seem to recall it takes more than just a USB size adapter. And, if you're ok with portable bluetooth keyboards, you don't have a problem with what the N810 does now ... but I haven't found a portable bluetooth I really liked. But I do love my folding mathias USB keyboard much better than I did the stowaway I also have. I would definitely want to be able to use THAT with an N810/N900.

But the real gating items, IMO, are #2 and #3. Without those, I need a netbook for many situations. I don't really need more CPU, RAM, nor storage than my N810 has (and the above netbook DOES have more storage potential than the N810). Those would be nice, but they aren't necessary.

With all of that in place, I wouldn't have any problem plugging the keyboard and display into my N810, and taking notes on that while I'm in a meeting (anywhere I have a table or desk). Or hooking it up to my KVM switch on my desk. I could easily forgo a netbook in that case.