Run 30,000 Palm OS apps on your Nokia Internet Tablet

[mathew.chacko]

Run 30,000+ Garnet OS applications on Nokia N810, N800 or 770

Garnet VM enables Nokia Nseries users to run thousands of Garnet OS (formerly Palm OS®) applications. Garnet VM supports some of the most popular applications in the mobile market including, Google Maps™, Snappermail®, DateBk5 and perennially popular games like Bejeweled®, PacMan and Sudoku. Choose from a wide variety of application types including, document processors, database managers, messaging, enhanced PIMs, life management tools, and more.

http://www.access-company.com/products/gvm/index.html

Memory Requirements
* Application size: 3.5MB of RAM
* Garnet VM Storage size: 16MB of RAM (configuration available 1MB to 32MB).

Sounds cool as foot print is small and should perform well on Nokia IT. Cheers.

[Khertan]

Great !!!!!

[zanglang]

Nifty!

Just quickly asking, but are there many free / opensource Garnet/Palm games available out there? Clicking through the 'Find Additional Garnet OS Applications' link just points to a Palm commercial software website, but nothing I see that's free/open.

[unique311]

nice.....well pose isn't needed anymore...

[Khertan]

There many palmos freeware on http://www.freewarepalm.com/ or http://www.freeware-palm.com/

[johnkzin]

I'll just say I'm probably going to have a huge grin on my face for the next day or so :-)

[fanoush]

This looks insanely cool :-) Note that it is beta and most probably with time expiration but still great thing.

First game I installed was Vexed :-)

[ldrn]

This is awesome.

Hey, the Internet Tablet can do Java MIDP now too, right? A bit clunky, though.

[thoughtfix]

Ooops crap I made a duplicate post pimping my pics and video of it. (http://tabletblog.com/2007/11/access-garnet-for-maemo-first-look.html)

[manfredi90]

X thoughtfix: can you test if the application can execute in landscape mode? In the official FAQ is write that the emulated program will be execute in landscape mode if you select fullscreen option... THX;)

http://www.access-company.com/products/gvm/faq.html

[martin_d]

This is great, great news! (Even greater than announcing a N810 release).

I switched from Palm to the IT, now I can have both. Great!

[anidel]

I hope they implement a full screen rotated version of it!!

great!

Update: "Garnet VM display configuration (screen rotation, background color/image)" from their website

[gammer]

Ehm, Mobipocket-Reader?! A new world of ebooks...

[chilko]

http://www.access-company.com/products/gvm/index.html
[Edited]

[sevo]

For now, it is good enough to carry around old databases that you don't want to convert. But a stamp size virtual screen is hardly useful for real work - the original Palm screen resolutions are minuscule at the high pixel pitch of the IT series. Readers will barely be useful until they add high-res emulation beyond the capabilities of Palm hardware.

Sevo

[JeffElkins]

Just a note of caution here.

I'm a former long-time OS/2 user and I've always felt that one of the things that ended up hurting OS/2 was it's ability to seamlessly run Win3.X programs. Why? Because many developers simply wrote for the Microsoft platform, knowing that OS/2 users could run the applications mainly hassle-free.

We need a vibrant developer community and native applications more than emulation software.

[Khertan]

We need a vibrant developer community and native applications more than emulation software

Of course, but it'll help user to switch as they can run Palm OS Application.

[wls]

Just awesome and the kind of thing I was waiting for. I have a ton of Palm apps that I wanted to see the equivelents of some for the 810 and now it looks like I can have them all! I hope this is the real deal but since Access bought PalmSoft they havethe capability and rights to do this.. this is really sticking it to Palm and they deserve it.
:D

[JeffElkins]

Of course, but it'll help user to switch as they can run Palm OS Application.

Khertan, I heard those exact words in the early 90s when I was running OS/2 Warp. I'm just sayin...:)

[TA-t3]

Thanks for the link btw., I was just about to asking you folks how long it took to get that email.. got nothing so far. But in the meantime I can actually try it now! :)

[wls]

Thanks for the link btw., I was just about to asking you folks how long it took to get that email.. got nothing so far. But in the meantime I can actually try it now! :)

but windows was growing and OS2 dieing at that time.
Now it is Linux that is growing and Palm Garnet that is basically dead.
This will be an incentive to all those Palm developers to go ahead and port their apps to us when they see them running on the 810.

[aflegg]

That link is in direct violation of their EULA.

Presumably with all the excitement around this product, you'd be upset if it was removed due to rampant disregard for their licence terms? Thought you would...

[phatsua]

just use Gmail, I received my mail in under 1 second

[JeffElkins]

but windows was growing and OS2 dieing at that time.
Now it is Linux that is growing and Palm Garnet that is basically dead.
This will be an incentive to all those Palm developers to go ahead and port their apps to us when they see them running on the 810.

Actually, at that time OS/2 was brand spankin new and there was quite a bit of user interest and excitement about it. I'm talking early 90s here, OS/2 2.0 was just out and a year or so later, OS/2 Warp (3.0) was introduced. Ancient history true, but history does repeat itself.

As far as Linux growing, that's quite true, but how many developers are doing Hildonized apps?

[Khertan]

JeffElkins > many developpers are leaving Palm OS plateform. Palm OS is really out dated, the sdk is peace of ****, need to make turnaround all the time.

An other example is Apple with Mac OS X and BootCamp, Mac OS X is still here :)

[sevo]

Khertan, I heard those exact words in the early 90s when I was running OS/2 Warp. I'm just sayin...:)

Warp already was a rescue attempt after OS/2 had initially failed. And as much as I liked some concepts in OS/2, it failed due to its flaws, not because of its 16 bit Windows compatibility - NT, which had a even greater compatibility layer and higher hardware requirements, eventually succeeded. Probably because they stole from VMS and Unix that time rather than let IBM (with precious little Mini and Workstation experience) reinvent the wheel from a mainframe perspective.

As far as Linux is concerned, it is a open system and can concurrently run software based on many different UI and API libraries - and so far, not even Windows VMs have had any negative impact. If any, hildonization of apps could be slowed down by the addition of a keyboard and USB OTG on the N810, which makes using vanilla Gnome and KDE apps more feasible.

Sevo

[Grue237]

sweet! this means I can use Docs To Go to open and edit MS Word and excel files!

[Jupex]

Wow :) This really is cool :) If the syncing part works with Macintosh over BT I am really really happy :)

The calendar app that came pre installed looks like crap but does the trick. A fullscreen would be nice thou.

[fanoush]

in 770 version for OS2006 there is no sound, N800 version seems to work in OS2007 hacker edition including sound. Tried Bejeweled and it is painfully slow both with or without sound. Let's hope they will improve it a bit. Also stuff with native arm code (armlets) crashes the VM, tried Legacy game (crashes at startup) and Plucker viewer with SysZLib as armlet and it crashes randomly when reading compressed books.

[sevo]

sweet! this means I can use Docs To Go to open and edit MS Word and excel files!

Gnumeric already does a vastly superior job on Excel files - and the next major release of Abiword will presumably kill Docs To Go stone dead as well.

Sevo

[JeffElkins]

An other example is Apple with Mac OS X and BootCamp, Mac OS X is still here :)

Good point :)

After playing with the Garnet VM I don't see Palm apps replacing great native programs like kagu, maemo-mapper or fbreader. The VM doesn't seem to take advantage of the Nokia's screen for one thing. I still think my original point was valid though.

[Reggie]

ACCESS Systems Americas, Inc., formerly PalmSource, Inc. has just released Garnet VM Beta for the Nokia Internet Tablet. This virtual machine software lets you run the full Palm OS Garnet on any model of Nokia Internet Tablet (770, N800, N810), giving you full PIM functionality as well as let you install more than 30,000 free and commercial Palm OS applications. I have just installed the software on the N810. The emulator runs at the middle of the screen at a 320 x 480. Graffiti works well, the keyboard on the N810 works perfectly, and the sound works as well (note that sound does not work on the 770). It seems like it even has an option to wireless HotSync to your PC as well. There is no option yet to rotate it and stretch it horizontally on the tablet which is my primary request as of the moment. As a long time Palm OS user, I have been longing for PIM apps on the Internet Tablet and never expected this(!), and I am ecstatic! Time to dig up my Palm OS registered app serial numbers... More details after the jump. Bundled Applications * Address * Date Book * Memo Pad * Calculator Memory Requirements * Application size: 3.5MB of RAM * Garnet VM Storage size: 16MB of RAM (configuration available 1MB to 32MB). Garnet VM Launcher * Application install/uninstall * Compatibility configuration per application (memory, display and device model) * Garnet VM storage size configuration * Garnet VM display configuration (screen rotation, background color/image) Garnet VM Standard Features * Dynamic Input Area with Grafitti® 1 character recognition * Networking (TCP/IP) * Synchronization via Hotsync® * Supported languages: English, French, Italian, German & Spanish Compatible Third Party Applications: Web/E-Mail • Google Maps™ • Snappermail® Networking • WiFile Pro™ • EzFTP Multimedia • Pocket Tunes™ • Kinoma® Productivity • DateBk5 • Britannica® Encyclopedia Games • Bejeweled® • PacMan • Raging Thunder • Village SIM Download the software now.Read the full article. (http://www.internettablettalk.com/2007/11/13/run-30000-palm-os-apps-on-your-nokia-internet-tablet/)

[Traecer]

Wow. Just yesterday I said if we wanted Palm apps on Maemo we should talk to ACCESS, and lo and behold, here they are releasing a beta. I notice the PIM apps installed are the old PalmSource ones, too, not the hacked-up ones Palm, Inc. currently ships. I have to try this out; I admit I could have been wrong about this whole Palm-on-Maemo thing.

[Jupex]

So could we in theory get better looking calendar and such?

[admin]

So could we in theory get better looking calendar and such?

Yes, if you install DateBk or Agendus. You are limited to that 320x480 space though.

[Jupex]

But now that I think of it... My nokia 6300 is coming, wich has direct iCal support so wy bother. The phone is 24/7 with me as the N800 is not.

[spotdog14]

i have a problem on my 770 that i need hildon-fm1. anyone have any idea whats up?

[TA-t3]

just use Gmail, I received my mail in under 1 second
I did, entered it twice as specified, haven't got it yet. Hours ago now.

[Reggie]

We have setup a new forum to discuss Garnet VM since this might be discussed heavily:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31

[sarahn]

Someone resourceful ported POSE, but unfortunately it was a memory hog, so I'm curious how this stacks up.

This is better than nothing, BUT, good to write developers and tell them you want native apps!

[TA-t3]

So far it works great. I have installed a few of the day-to-day apps I still use on the Palm, they work flawlessly. Including the Lufthansa flight planner. GVM has failed on me a couple of times, not when running applications but when launching them. There may be some memory leak issues or something, but no big deal as long as it doesn't crash while running apps. I've only run m68k apps so far, read that posting about armlets trouble.

I wonder if it's any use trying the calendar.. presumably it won't honour any alarms unless the GVM is fully up and running? As it takes over the N800 screen completely (I didn't find a way to switch to another application anyway) it's not very practical to keep it running..

But I'm a pretty happy camper so far!

[Pushwall]

The applications and games I've tried so far run great. I tried eReader and was surprised that even though the screen is small, I can read ebooks without any problems at all. Of course it would be better if the screen were larger on the emulator but I'm very happy with it so far.

[unique311]

http://www.access-company.com/products/gvm/feedback.html

put this compatibility survey to use.
especially the section where it ask what would you like to see
in upcoming releases.

[Texrat]

So Palm gets new life. Who would have thought it would be like this?

[unique311]

http://homepage.mac.com/alvinmok/palm/codenames.html

good link to try custom devices on the vm.

pick the app you want to run.
configure
device model = custom
and get the company ID and device ID from the link above.

[johnkzin]

So Palm gets new life. Who would have thought it would be like this?

*AHEM*

*cough*

...

*cough*

[wls]

So Palm gets new life. Who would have thought it would be like this?
The more things change the more they remain the same!
looking forward to having my card games and conversion programs running and have a decent handheld browser.
:)

[Grench]

OK... I don't have an N800 yet. I was an EARLY adopter of the Tapwave Zodiac and I'm still using it. Having two SD slots, gameability and 8GB of media on a device with 480x320 resolution has been great. With the PIM it enabled the device to be work and play. I've used it for about 50/50 work & play.

Before anyone goes nuts with, 'no you can't' about the 8GB on a Palm OS device, chill. I have it sitting in front of me with two 4GB SD (not SDHC) cards in it. Yes those exist too.

The ONLY thing that has held me back on buying an N800 is the fact that I have about a thousand or so contacts in my Palm OS address book. The N800's lack of a real PIM system is a deal killer.

So, would this emulation enable the N800 to finally be the PDA / game emulator / media player / internet tablet to replace my cherished Zodiac 2?

How long does it take and how many keystrokes/taps does it take to go from the N800 in standby mode to looking up contacts in the emulated PIM? Will the Palm Emulated databases sync in any way?

[TA-t3]

*AHEM*

*cough*

...

*cough*

High five!

:D

[aleksandyr]

Wow. Just wow.

So much potential: downloading now!

[prk60091]

thank you garnet = having just (this past summer) retired my 700p i now can "reinstall" my favorites on my 770 and soon new 810
thank you
thank you
thank you

i hated killing my treo but it just did not work as a phone

[rcadden]

Damn, still havne't gotten the email. Oh well, it's not like Palm's been quick with anything else in their history.....

[sevo]

Access send that email from a host claiming a invalid DNS address - many mail servers will reject it or mark it as spam. Check your spam folder, or use some more spam-friendly mail server - gmail did accept that mail, while our corporate server does not.

Sevo

[TA-t3]

It's Access, not Palm.. anyway, it looks like some got the email in one second, others don't get one at all. Don't know why. Nothing in my gmail account, not even in the spam folder. I did use that link someone posted to download, but by then I had provided my name&mail address and all, so I should be ok with the EULA.. I think. :cool:

[spotdog14]

i have a problem on my 770 that i need hildon-fm1. anyone have any idea whats up?

Come on no one?

[jmancine]

Yes, the software seems nice and runs well, but why so much energy into making old palm apps run in an emulator window on the nseries?

I'd rather see that energy go into developing/porting great apps for maemo.

I just don't get it, I guess. If I wanted or needed my old palm apps, I would be using my palm.

[basco]

Mine was in my email folder.

BTW, how does the old software you own work with the anti piracy stuff? I'll guess I'll find out.

[TA-t3]

Things I've installed have been running well, until now.. but here's some advice: Don't install anything that needs Mathlib.prc installed with it. The gvm launcher hangs, and nothing I did could fix that. Killed gvm and gvm-launcher from xterm. After that it would start, but would hang starting applications. De-installed the app. needing Mathlib, no help. I scratched my $HOME/.gvm directory, still no luck (it did start up with the EULA, just as a first start). Reboot, no good. Re-installed garnet-vm, no good. In the end I fixed it by doing all of the above: rm -rf /home/user/.gvm, dpkg --purge garnet-vm, re-installed it from AM, _and_ rebooted. That fixed it.

Morale: Stay away from Mathlib.prc (at least I think that was the culprit). I've reported my findings to the compatibility survey on Access' site.

[sevo]

BTW, how does the old software you own work with the anti piracy stuff? I'll guess I'll find out.

The Garnet VM generates its own sync ID - so all ID-locked software will be unregistered. That device-locked software will break on any new device as well is obvious.

Sevo

[omegaone37]

Never could get to the actual download page... Access sent the email with a link but it just took me back to the registration page... after 4 email tries, still nothing.

go figure...

Omega

[Reggie]

If you encounter problems on specific apps, please report them:
http://www.access-company.com/products/gvm/feedback.html

[geneven]

I use Yahoo Mail and finally found the link in my Bulk Mail.

[wls]

The Garnet VM generates its own sync ID - so all ID-locked software will be unregistered. That device-locked software will break on any new device as well is obvious.

Sevo
Well that won't do. We need an option to insert your own sync ID so that registered software can be transferred.

[mobiledivide]

I used a Palm TX about 2 years ago it operated quite well as a PIM, I have this installed and running (used Gmail got link in seconds) looks good, I will try hotsyncing and report back. I wish it ran in full screen portrait mode with the +- buttons acting as a scroll dial/wheel and center as a click through, that would be great.

[basco]

The Garnet VM generates its own sync ID - so all ID-locked software will be unregistered. That device-locked software will break on any new device as well is obvious.

Sevo

Then it's pretty much useless to me then.

I'll report it but theres another problem, using the alarms in calender, it wiped out all the programs I installed and the meetings I entered.

[omegaone37]

If you encounter problems on specific apps, please report them:
http://www.access-company.com/products/gvm/feedback.html



Reggie... if this was for me, thanks. But the problem is that I couldn't get to a page to actually download anything. The link provided from Access (and there were 4 email tries) always took me back to the registration page (which is the page where you register for a link to download).

If someone has a link to the actual download area, would be greatly appreciated. :p

Thanks,

Omega :cool:

[TA-t3]

Some screenshots of working apps.
Games? Yep..
Google maps? Even that one..

[sevo]

Then it's pretty much useless to me then.


If you need registered apps, it won't help that much, unless they are from a vendor who still exists and has the policy and ability to issue new keys free of charge in such a eventuality - which most vendors that use external shop systems can't.

Doesn't matter for me, the last Palm app I use (Strip, where a gazillion of old, rarely used software keys and web passwords reside, which I'd hate to transfer to another password manager) is freeware.


I'll report it but theres another problem, using the alarms in calender, it wiped out all the programs I installed and the meetings I entered.

Mine got wiped over a sync attempt against Evolution. But as long as I only use strip, I can do without syncing, and will have a more stable solution than with my Clie SL-10, which loses its memory every time I have to replace the cells.

Sevo

[basco]

My treo used to reset itself all the time and all my software keys would have to be re-entered. I used a backup program to backup the one file that would corrupt at every reset and after that it was almost painless.

[artkavanagh]

The link provided from Access (and there were 4 email tries) always took me back to the registration page (which is the page where you register for a link to download).


This happened to me, too, when I tried to "click" on the link in the N800's own email client. However, when I clicked on the same link on my notebook, it brought me to the EULA and download link. I then coped the .deb file onto my SD card and installed it from there. A bit of a roundabout way to go about it, I know.

[zerojay]

This happened to me, too, when I tried to "click" on the link in the N800's own email client. However, when I clicked on the same link on my notebook, it brought me to the EULA and download link. I then coped the .deb file onto my SD card and installed it from there. A bit of a roundabout way to go about it, I know.

That is a bug in the e-mail client. It misinterprets the & character as " instead, which causes the link to be wrong when clicked upon. Try replacing any "s with &s and also removing %3E at the end of the link as well.

[Karel Jansens]

Just a note of caution here.

I'm a former long-time OS/2 user and I've always felt that one of the things that ended up hurting OS/2 was it's ability to seamlessly run Win3.X programs. Why? Because many developers simply wrote for the Microsoft platform, knowing that OS/2 users could run the applications mainly hassle-free.

We need a vibrant developer community and native applications more than emulation software.

I'm with you that I'm not enthousiatically jumping up and down about this, but for a different reason (I feel your OS/2 pain though, brother):

Why are we even wasting time on this? This is Palm Garnet, people. Stone age technology that nobody wants anymore.

Please don't try to convince me that giving up three quarters of my N800's screen is a good deal. Heck, I can't even use the N800's HWR on this thing. Graffiti?? WTF???

If we are going to incorporate Palm's software into the ITs, then this

http://home.cfl.rr.com/genecash/nokia/index.html

is a much more commendable effort, rough at the edges as it may be.

[OS/2 sidenote: Did we ever meet in cyberspace? On Usenet's cooa perchance? Wait... You're not Tim Martin, aren't you? Are you????]

[rhtme52]

Come on no one?
I had the same problem, when I tried to install the n800 deb (the direct link that was posted some time ago) on my nokia 770. My be you should try the correct deb (same link but replace n800 by n770) - there are three different debs!

[harknell]

Does anyone know which palm hardware this emulator most resembles? In some cases you need to get the software version for a particular palm hardware version for it to work best--just curious to know which hardware would match up to this best.

[Naranek]

Why are we even wasting time on this? This is Palm Garnet, people. Stone age technology that nobody wants anymore.

I'm in for just one thing - the palm calendar. It wipes the floor with anything available for N800. Now if only we could use the whole screen and have a handy way of launching directly to the calendar.

Seriously, I'm willing to bet good money on that the screen will be better utilised. After going through all this trouble of bringing the VM to Maemo, it would be crazy not to fix such an obvious issue. I'm thinking flipping it 90 degrees CCW and scaling up. That way you even have the 4way pointer pretty near where it is in Palm devices.

[rickh]

I'm in for just one thing - the palm calendar. It wipes the floor with anything available for N800. Now if only we could use the whole screen and have a handy way of launching directly to the calendar.
...

i'm with Karel on this one. Instead of asking "if only we could do such and such with an emulator" we should be asking "if only we had a native calendar app that wipes the floor with anything out there".

Seriously, wouldn't we prefer to have apps made for the device, rather than some bog-slow emulation of a 10 year old (or more) app?

My opinion, of course.

R.
==

[sevo]

Why are we even wasting time on this? This is Palm Garnet, people. Stone age technology that nobody wants anymore.


Yup. However it removes the requirement to maintain that piece of dying stone age hardware if you still need a few legacy apps that have no Linux or Maemo equivalent.

But using Garnet VM as a PIM is silly - the Palm PIM apps aren't particularily glorious, and even the third party improvements on them are somewhat bland once they lose the total system integration they had on the Palm. In terms of screen estate and PIM capabilities, the Palm was a setback compared to my HP 200LX.

Sevo

[JeffElkins]

[OS/2 sidenote: Did we ever meet in cyberspace? On Usenet's cooa perchance? Wait... You're not Tim Martin, aren't you? Are you????]

No, I'm Jeff Elkins :) I mainly sysoped at GEnie and for a while, CIS, then MSN.

[johnkzin]

Seriously, wouldn't we prefer to have apps made for the device, rather than some bog-slow emulation of a 10 year old (or more) app?


Of course. But right now, that's vaporware. What are you going to use _now_ that has the right feature set and ability to sync to a desktop?

A clunky VM is, IMO, a good thing. It's not as good as native apps by a long shot (not even as good as Win16 apps on OS/2 ... the problem there was that Win16 apps were good enough that you didn't _need_ an OS/2 version; here, the display limitations of how the VM displays palm apps might just be enough difference to keep that from happening) ... yet it gives access to legacy apps/data to get you through until the existence of a native app. It is middle ground. It is something you can use _now_.

IMO, it's not about whether or not Access should provide this VM, and whether or not we should use it. It's "how do we get the app vendors to see that they've now got a market opportunity". If they attract users to the app that runs under the VM, then they build a userbase which will both demand, and justify, making a native version.

So...

1) find palm versions of apps you wish you had on maemo
2) contact the vendor about running it on the garnet VM
3) start pressuring/lobbying them to make a native version


(oh, and, if Nokia starts to wonder if this is going to be another Win16/OS2 situation, they should attack it from the other side: use the same strategy to lure vendors to porting native apps to maemo, fill in the missing pieces like desktop sync'ing software, etc.)

[sevo]

I'm in for just one thing - the palm calendar. It wipes the floor with anything available for N800.


Datebk3/4/5 beat the GPE calendar. But the original? A calendar app incapable of handling events that go past midnight or happen in other time zones is not really the best example to model a better calendar on - and the phone book was even worse...

Sevo

[johnkzin]

Datebk3/4/5 beat the GPE calendar. But the original? A calendar app incapable of handling events that go past midnight or happen in other time zones is not really the best example to model a better calendar on - and the phone book was even worse...


The address book beats the N800's contacts app by a mile, for one simple reason: without adding any external software, I could keep my palm address book in sync with my desktop address books, giving me 1 consistent address book across all of my systems.

[fanoush]

It runs much faster under OS2008. When testing with 770 (OS2006 or 7) and with N800 with latest OS2007 Bejeweled game was unplayable like slideshow with stuttering sound. I was wonderin why they dared to mention it on Garnet VM page. With OS2008-based N800 it flies and even music plays almost with no hiccup :-)
Not sure if it is due to faster system libraries or 400MHz CPU, perhaps both.

[Grench]

A note for the hyjack portion of the thread...

I loved OS/2. I don't think it failed for windows emulation though.

It failed because there wasn't a consumer pricing model. Windows at the time sold to 'people' at about 1/3 the price of 'businesses'. OS/2 was a premium over both and had no 'individual use' discount.

So... Windows ended up in homes. Because of support for games, it stayed in homes. Businesses realized that Windows had a massive self-trained install base, and went with it.

Did you know that Windows NT 3.51 and OS/2 3.0 shared a lot of binaries? You could have NT 3.51 or NT 4.0 address OS/2's HPFS file system through renaming a file called 'pinball' and activating it in the config.

Warp had one of the -best- user interfaces ever. RIP.

[Grench]

A note for the Garnet on N800 portion of the thread...

So, from cold start to the contacts list or calendar... how long does it take and how many taps/buttons?

And yes, a native PIM would be VERY nice. Its been 3 years since the 770 came out and not one has been made that is a viable substitute for Palm's original 'Address' and 'Date Book' applications.

The lack of a PIM support on the device (Not requiring a network connection) IS hurting sales of this device. Storing contacts online is slower than a Rolodex.

Like it or not, PIM support isn't a nifty add on feature on a device like this, it is a pre-requisite. Without it, this is a toy. With it it becomes a tool.

I've been watching these forums for over a year looking for PIM and big card support. The big cards are here.

Is the Garnet emulation a viable PIM? I.e. is it faster to open and find a contact or calendar date in it than it would be in a Rolodex or Franklin Planner?

[geneven]

Bleh. I just excitedy looked thru a large number of Palm apps that mostly looked dull. If I can hotsync news I'll be happy, but not much else looked appealing. I saw an rss readerr that looked better than what we have, with only a ten day free trial. Then when I tried to install it it needs java.

Bleh.

[Karel Jansens]

No, I'm Jeff Elkins :) I mainly sysoped at GEnie and for a while, CIS, then MSN.

In all fairness, Tim Martin isn't Tim Martin, but if you've never been an regular of comp.os.os2.advocacy, it'd take mightily long to explain.

[ArchT]

Has anyone testing this with slingplayer application - palm OS?

[JeffElkins]

In all fairness, Tim Martin isn't Tim Martin, but if you've never been an regular of comp.os.os2.advocacy, it'd take mightily long to explain.

Ohhh, you mean the Warp City guy :)

Old times :)

[unique311]

You should try out the vm first before calling it bog slow.
not slow at all.
Now with some descent feedback I'm pretty sure the individuals who
brung out this great port, will do their best to resolve that screen size issue.

But you should really give it a try before calling it bog slow.


i'm with Karel on this one. Instead of asking "if only we could do such and such with an emulator" we should be asking "if only we had a native calendar app that wipes the floor with anything out there".

Seriously, wouldn't we prefer to have apps made for the device, rather than some bog-slow emulation of a 10 year old (or more) app?

My opinion, of course.

R.
==

[Karel Jansens]

Ohhh, you mean the Warp City guy :)

Old times :)

Aaahhhh.... (there appears to be no nostalgia emoticon available -- an unfortunate design oversight :D)

[johnkzin]

A note for the hyjack portion of the thread...

I loved OS/2. I don't think it failed for windows emulation though.

I had the immediatey-before-warp release, and the warp release. It was better than Windows 3.x. That's about all I can say.


Warp had one of the -best- user interfaces ever. RIP.

I didn't really like it. What it had going for it was actual integration between the OS and the TCP/IP interface (which windows 3.x didn't). That gave it some sophistication and ease of use, for using the net, that Windows just didn't have, until Win95. Other than that, OS/2 never impressed me on any level.

Nextstep had a MUCH better UI. I could even run various windows apps on it (via SoftPC), as long as they weren't speed intensive (so, everything except games). Though, as various native apps became available, I'd stop using the windows equivalent ones (ex: the lighthouse suite of apps made me not need to use Word/Excel anymore).

And, once Win95 came out, there wasn't any more reason for me to use OS/2. Win95 was good enough for basic net connectivity, and ran more games (and usually ran them better) than OS/2. And that was really all I needed from that side of my hard drive. Everything else I'd do in Nextstep. Eventually I just gave my OS/2 partition over to more space for games for Windows.

[Traecer]

Yes, the software seems nice and runs well, but why so much energy into making old palm apps run in an emulator window on the nseries?

I'd rather see that energy go into developing/porting great apps for maemo.

I just don't get it, I guess. If I wanted or needed my old palm apps, I would be using my palm.

Well, realize that this is actually part of ACCESS's ACCESS Linux Platform. They developed it to be part of a new Linux-based Palm OS (which is different from Palm's efforts to make a Linux-based Palm OS). ALP is built on GTK (among other things) and designed to run on ARM processors, so they probably didn't expend much energy packaging it into a DEB file.

[Traecer]

Does anyone know which palm hardware this emulator most resembles? In some cases you need to get the software version for a particular palm hardware version for it to work best--just curious to know which hardware would match up to this best.

None. This is the emulator from ACCESS Linux Platform and was never deployed to a Palm device. It also lacks Palm's "improved" PIMs, etc. It's probably roughly equivalent to Palm OS 5.4.0? That's when they started calling Garnet, but before Palm started replacing the standard Date Book/Address Book/To-Do with their own Calendar/Contacts/Tasks.

[rickh]

You should try out the vm first before calling it bog slow.
not slow at all.
Now with some descent feedback I'm pretty sure the individuals who
brung out this great port, will do their best to resolve that screen size issue.

But you should really give it a try before calling it bog slow.
What makes you think I haven't? Because my opinion differs (I have tried it, BTW)?

Emulation will ALWAYS be slower than native, particularly on an this level ARM-based device.

Sorry, but I maintain that it is bog-slow in comparison to native apps.

R.
==

[Paradux]

I still use a Palm, mostly for a personal finance software (licensed) which syncs with MS Money. I suck at keeping addresses up to date, so I don't care so much about that (in other words, it doesn't matter to me where I keep my out-dated addresses... ;) ), but not having personal finance software available is a big deal for me. My wife, who hates technology BTW, now has a Blackberry for work, a Palm for personal finance software (we both sync with MS Money), and a cell phone. I can't sell her on the IT because then she would have to carry yet another thing - that's just not gonna fly.

I agree porting software from Palm is bass-ackwards. But right now, in my opinion, the IT isn't an all-replacing device. I don't want it to be a phone, because I don't want the contract which would undoubtedly accompany it, but right now it can't replace my Palm.

Unless I overlooked personal finance software for the IT which syncs with MS Money?

[Milhouse]

What makes you think I haven't? Because my opinion differs (I have tried it, BTW)?

Emulation will ALWAYS be slower than native, particularly on an this level ARM-based device.

Sorry, but I maintain that it is bog-slow in comparison to native apps.

R.
==

There's no emulation, it's a native ARM application - Palm has been using ARM for years so there's nothing to emulate except the 68K *REALLY* old Palm applications that haven't been updated for 6+ years. From what I've seen of the GarnetVM, on the N800 it's lightning fast and the supplied applications only use between 2% and 3% CPU in order to function (again, because there's no emulation involved - it's all native).

[jackass124]

how bout Slingplayer??...can we run the Palm version on our n800s now?? that would ROCKKKK!.....anyone?

Thanx!

[geneven]

I would sure like to see people's favorite applications in this Garnet deal. I have looked fairly hard and haven't found one single program I thought was particularly cool.

Which isn't to say that I think this was a mistake. It's good propaganda to be able to say that the N-series runs more than 30,000 programs. Just don't mention that they are mostly crappy.

[tzeta]

Is there any good games for PalmOS?

[unique311]

what type of speeds are you wanting from this.
I'm not sure what you are running on your device.
but it is fast.
are you running it on the 770?
which device?



What makes you think I haven't? Because my opinion differs (I have tried it, BTW)?

Emulation will ALWAYS be slower than native, particularly on an this level ARM-based device.

Sorry, but I maintain that it is bog-slow in comparison to native apps.

R.
==

[kingka]

What about being able to launch the app as a (transparent) dragable window on the maemo desktop. that way it retains the same resolution. and doesn't look as bad as it does now with all that useless wasted space on each side.

[Pushwall]

Is there any good games for PalmOS?
Yes, there's lots of good games for PalmOS. There's the PC game ports like Doom/Doom 2 (and the mods), Duke3D, Heretic, Hexen, ShadowWarrior, Another World, etc. Also great emulators like ScummVM and ones for NES, SNES, Gameboy, Gameboy Color, Sega Genesis, Sega Gamegear, TurboGrafix 16 (PC Engine), Colecovision, Atari, and AtariST. Then there's the games TonyHawk, EDGE (real-time RPG), Warefare Inc. (real-time strategy), VillageSim, Trivial Pursuit, Bike or Die (simulation), Arvale (adventure), Acedior (adventure), Madden '05, plus lots and lots of puzzle games like Bejeweled and Zuma and sports games like golf, mini-golf, bowling and so on and so on. And that's just off the top of my head.

[dblank]

I would sure like to see people's favorite applications in this Garnet deal. I have looked fairly hard and haven't found one single program I thought was particularly cool.


There's a few audio apps I'd love to run, especially Microbe and Bhajis Loops:
http://www.chocopoolp.com/

Some games too.. unfortunately I've yet to get anything to actually run past their title screen, they usually just freeze or throw up an error :(

[TA-t3]

There's no emulation, it's a native ARM application - Palm has been using ARM for years so there's nothing to emulate except the 68K *REALLY* old Palm applications that haven't been updated for 6+ years.
Actually the vast majority of new applications are _still_ m68k, and they will run on old as well as new Palm devices. The exception is specialised, resource-hungry applications like TomTom and the like.
In addition to being all-Palm compatible, m68k apps are very small compared to arm apps. And they run fast still, the PACE m68k-to-ARM just-in-time compiler in PalmOS 5 is very good. I'm only running m68k apps in the GVM so far, another poster reported problems with armlet applications anyway.

[Milhouse]

Actually the vast majority of new applications are _still_ m68k, and they will run on old as well as new Palm devices. The exception is specialised, resource-hungry applications like TomTom and the like.
In addition to being all-Palm compatible, m68k apps are very small compared to arm apps. And they run fast still, the PACE m68k-to-ARM just-in-time compiler in PalmOS 5 is very good. I'm only running m68k apps in the GVM so far, another poster reported problems with armlet applications anyway.

Thanks for the correction TA-t3 - I last used a Plam device (Tungsten T) in 2002 and tended to focus more on the multimedia functionality which as far as I can recall was ARM native (at the time it was a major selling point for software!) but I guess it's possible/likely that many of the more mundane apps would continue to be targeted at the m68K platform in order to ensure the widest degree of compatability.

As for the apps which ship with the GarnetVM (ie. date book, calendar etc.) I assume they're ARM native - it would seem odd for ACCESS to continue providing m68K applications! :)

[TA-t3]

That could well be the case, I also suspected this. They can presumably just recompile them and go, with possibly a few adjustments.

I also suspect that it's much easier to get the m68k applications to work with GVM (and maybe m68k applications are the _only_ 3party apps that are currently working, but the jury is out on this still) because m68k apps were always executed through the PACE emulator/just-in-time compiler in PalmOS5. Access would just have to modify PACE slightly so that it interfaces with the N800 Linux kernel system calls instead of the PalmOS kernel (there is actually a kernel down there in PalmOS 5, licensed from some company). Native ARM code, on the other hand, would be more tricky because compiled 3party ARM code would be geared against the PalmOS kernel and some complex intercepting would have to be done in order to get it to work correctly with the Linux kernel. Think getting Wine to work with native Windows applications on Linux, if you like. Same CPU, different operating system interface. Tricky.

I'm doing a lot of guesswork in the above, as of course I don't know what Access has actually been doing with the GVM. But this is my gut feeling as a developer.

Anyway, we'll learn more when we've all done a bit more testing.. :D

[esloneck]

Is anyone else having memory leak problems? (I am running OS2007 on an N800)

I am able to start up the VM and launch applications just fine, but when I quit out of the VM, my memory (128MB virtual enabled) is pegged at 100% and does not return to normal until I restart.

[TA-t3]

Can't say that I've noticed it in the way you have, maybe because I don't use extended virtual memory. But yesterday when I was trying out a whole bunch of applications it happened that launching apps would fail, I restarted GVM and it worked again. Could well be memory leak issues.

I just found out about portrait mode (turn off full-screen in the GVM settings, as described by thoughtfix), and then you get access to the rest of Hildon directly (without having to go through the home button). Here's a screenshot.

EDIT: Funny thing: load-applet-run is invisible in the screenshot..? (I used it to make the screenshot. It's supposed to be in the dark area between the wi-fi symbol and the battery)

[bunanson]

what type of speeds are you wanting from this.
I'm not sure what you are running on your device.
but it is fast.
are you running it on the 770?
which device?

Slow or not slow, this is the ONLY thing I know that ported my 20 years of contacts seamlessly into the tablet without a hassle. A slow or not slow Garnet VM got the job done. Hands down. Now I can really put my Dell winCE to ebay.

bun

[genepool]

I don’t know if this is really a reflection of the VM speed, but I ran the palm benchmark app Speedy v6.4 from aldweb.com on both my Treo650 and my N800 (OS2007) and got the following results:

Treo: Calc Test=0.53, Mem Test=0.24, Graph Test=0.33 Total 1.10sec (~273MHz)
N800: Calc Test=0.73, Mem Test=0.09, Graph Test=0.82 Total 1.64sec (~183MHz)

From these results it looks like memory access on the VM is far faster than the Treo but calculation and graphics are a little slower. It would be cool if someone could run some comparison tests on an n800 running OS 2008 and on a 770. Again, I don’t know that these numbers mean anything, I have tried some of my favorite palm apps and they seem to run great in the VM. Like many of you I would really like to see a full-screen option but that aside I think this is an awesome app.

[preslopsky]

If you need registered apps, it won't help that much, unless they are from a vendor who still exists and has the policy and ability to issue new keys free of charge in such a eventuality - which most vendors that use external shop systems can't.

Doesn't matter for me, the last Palm app I use (Strip, where a gazillion of old, rarely used software keys and web passwords reside, which I'd hate to transfer to another password manager) is freeware.



Mine got wiped over a sync attempt against Evolution. But as long as I only use strip, I can do without syncing, and will have a more stable solution than with my Clie SL-10, which loses its memory every time I have to replace the cells.

Sevo
I have some older Palm software whose registration was tied to a specific device. I was able to move the registration applet and registration db to an SD card along with the application using the old freeware app FileCaddy, and install all three on the Garnet VM. The app runs just like a registered copy should, and does not know it is now living in a different place.

Perhaps this issue is harder to resolve for different apps and different versions of Palm OS, but so far I have been able to get this to work for anything I had running on Palm OS 4 and OS 5.

This may violate the license agreement, particularly if it is specific about the app being for a single install. If you are concerned about the legality, I guess delete it from your old device. Many of the older Palm apps I have are no longer produced, supported, and many of the developers are now gone. So I am not sure who is left to gripe.

I'll end with a question: Am I missing something obvious? How do I get apps running on the VM to recognize the SD card slots? I am a writer, and I use a nifty, although primitive, device called the Alphsmart for word processing (it runs Palm OS 4). All of my documents are on cards.

[TA-t3]

As far as I'm able to tell, the GVM can't see the SD cards. FileZ certainly can't, and then I doubt any other application can. Here's to hoping that it'll be fixed for a later beta. (It can't use BT directly either, and that at least is mentioned as a feature in the whitepaper. As it isn't there now it must mean they plan to implement it.)