Biggest Disappointment: Nav Software

[frethop]

Got my N810 yesterday. Since I had already put OS2008 on my N800, I was anxious to try the new stuff on the N810. So I eagerly tried out the navigation software. I have really put Maemo Mapper to good use on my N800 with a Holux GPS Slim 236 and loved it.

What a bust! The software isn't just bad -- it stinks! Among the many problems:

Slow update. The software is always 50-100 feet behind. This means it misses streets by half-a-block. The frequency of sampling the GPS info is really slow. This happened with both the internal GPS and with my external Holux unit.
Crappy maps. While they were (mostly) accurate, the maps had a very coarse level of detail -- at all levels of zoom. I am used to Google maps from Maemo Mapper, which were much better. I'm describing the way the maps are drawn -- the streets were too wide, for instance, way out of perspective.
Annoying annotation. Street names are only available at low levels of zoom. When they are available, they are generated dynamically and move around as the crosshairs that track postion move. Trying to read the moving type can be difficult.
Dizzying rotation. If you don't fix north and let the map rotate, it stops at crazy angles and moves in choppy jumps.
Paying for service. I believe the price of the N810 was higher than that for other tablets at introduction in part because of the nav software. Well, we only got half of the software. The routing and directional navigation is a purchased item and not even available yet. Sigh.

So...for me, the nav software is a bust. Give me Maemo Mapper any day. When Maemo Mapper can use the internal GPS (maybe it can now...I haven't checked), Nokia should throw out the Wayfinder stuff and pay Gnuite the big bucks for licensing his expertise.

What do the rest of you think?

-- Mike

[iancumihai]

I agree, and I have _bough_ the Navicore software for N800. It works perfectly on highway and cities.

But it's the worst thing, can ruin your trip if you are planning a trip from Paris to Wien.
Let me explain: it splits maps into regions (for memory savings and to use kinder-garden programming style)
Now, paris is in one region - France, Wien is in another region -German Alps. So it CANNOT plan a route. I have choose Strasbourg as a border point to pass into Germany. Now this is a city (and it has streets also).
I want to go to .... Wien ... but thats wrong ... not such city. Ok then ... Berlin ... wroooooooooong ... ok i want to go east ... ... too many exits :(

So ... luckily i have some basic nav/geo knowledge ... i know there should be a river to be crossed ... and then i have searched for the nearest bridge (east .... don't forget east ). So now i have again some routing through the streets of Strasbourg and luckily i dindt get lost.

In Germany it worked flawlessly, job done. Quick recovery when choosing the wrong exit ... etc etc .. but the regions problem really sux

it's worth buying, except the region thing.

[JeffElkins]

Paying for service. I believe the price of the N810 was higher than that for other tablets at introduction in part because of the nav software. Well, we only got half of the software. The routing and directional navigation is a purchased item and not even available yet.

Mike, this is the exact reason I decided on a N800 vs the N810. I think the additional charges for GPS service are unconscionable.

[sevo]

Rudely said: Navigation software is intended for the geographically challenged, and as such, it tends to deliver results that please the disoriented - with cutely misproportioned graphics, all kinds of directional cues and icons, and nagging voices telling you where to go. If you are a good navigator, they will always be later than you...

GPS map software, on the other hand, is for skilled map readers - much better than paper in that you can carry more (and more special) maps with you, that your position is self tracking and that the destination is flagged. But the navigation is up to you, and if you don't know how to read a map, you'll be still SOL...

Sevo

[Texrat]

I didn't experience anything near that severe. The timing was rarely off by much when I used it. Detail looked crisp and clear for me at all levels. And I don't sweat the lack of visible arterial street names at wide zoom-- the map would be a cluttered mess otherwise. ANY map for this purpose.

The issues I had were already reported but I'll briefly repeat here:

-app crashed twice
-satellites slow to lock
-voice gave wrong instructions at one point

I also don't really have an issue with the fees. I think they're very reasonable, and it's unrealistic to expect EVERYTHING to be free. There are significant costs involved with obtaining and maintaining the required data.

[YoDude]

The app GUI in 2008 is a big improvement over the Navicore app in 2007 & 6.
Seeing this makes me hopeful that more improvements will come with a larger user base.
The street labels may have to do with cache management and that can easily be improved.
A utility to "stich" together multiple maps will pro'lly come too based on my observations of how other navigation software has evolved.

I can now do more with it than I could when I first got it >> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11911
... I expect in another month or 2 we will be able to do even more.

[Darius2006]

Got my N810 yesterday. Since I had already put OS2008 on my N800, I was anxious to try the new stuff on the N810. So I eagerly tried out the navigation software. I have really put Maemo Mapper to good use on my N800 with a Holux GPS Slim 236 and loved it.

Maemo Mapper is an excellent piece of navigation for Linux/Debian machines.

What a bust! The software isn't just bad -- it stinks! Among the many problems:

Slow update. The software is always 50-100 feet behind.

There is a bug in Google/Yahoo/Microsoft maps , published on-line.
Maps/roads are shifted 30-40 m against satellite image layer
and don't match sat images.
In my opinion, introduced to eliminate free navigation applications making use of Internet published maps.

This means it misses streets by half-a-block.
see above
shift intended exactly to make you use commercial products only.

The frequency of sampling the GPS info is really slow. This happened with both the internal GPS and with my external Holux unit.

There is a delay loop incorporated into navigation program,
as maemo is crashing if gps fix is not valid.


Crappy maps. While they were (mostly) accurate, the maps had a very coarse level of detail -- at all levels of zoom. I am used to Google maps from Maemo Mapper, which were much better.

Google maps come from the source TeleAtlas, already bought by Garmin and Navteq , already acquired by Nokia.

I'm describing the way the maps are drawn -- the streets were too wide, for instance, way out of perspective.

The same is known for maemo mapper.
If there is no map tile for a specific zoom level, zooming one-level in
you see streets much wider than intended for that zoom level (try this feature in off-line mode).


Annoying annotation. Street names are only available at low levels of zoom.

The same with Google maps. Sometimes street names are already visible but still no city name.

When they are available, they are generated dynamically and move around as the crosshairs that track postion move. Trying to read the moving type can be difficult.

Apparently bug not sticking map tile layer with virtual street names layer.

Dizzying rotation. If you don't fix north and let the map rotate, it stops at crazy angles and moves in choppy jumps.

John solved maps jumping problem in Maemo Mapper introducing
gps sensivity and lead amount values in settings.

Paying for service. I believe the price of the N810 was higher than that for other tablets at introduction in part because of the nav software. Well, we only got half of the software. The routing and directional navigation is a purchased item and not even available yet. Sigh.

You are right.
We are participating in competition between Nokia tablet and iPhone by Apple.
At Consumer Electronics Show 2008 in Las Vegas, Apple is introducing
3G iPhone with inbuilt gps and 16/32 GB memory.

I suppose Nokia is going to introduce Nokia tablet + GPS + camera + GSM at the same time.

Unfortunately what Nokia offers on US market valued in $ has the same price tag in Europe but in GBP.
Low-end navigation with voice commands is available already at $100.


So...for me, the nav software is a bust. Give me Maemo Mapper any day. When Maemo Mapper can use the internal GPS (maybe it can now...I haven't checked), Nokia should throw out the Wayfinder stuff and pay Gnuite the big bucks for licensing his expertise.

Exactly. Nokia should nominate John general manager at gps applications development department.
John started his mapper navigation project stating any such system should be worth $2000.
He was not aware in 2 years time price for basic navigation with voice commands (software + maps + hardware) sinks to $100.

What do the rest of you think?

-- Mike

I am developing 2 interactive 3D generation navigation systems for Vateq and Teleatlas and do hope to get my high-tech 3D navigation projects financed both by Navteq andTeleatlas in 2 million $ challenge.

Darius

[Hedgecore]

I never thought about the fact that the nav software might be hiking the price up by a lot... if that's the case, leave the hardware in place, and make it a separate bundle... for what I'd use it for I'd be aces with Maemo-Mapper.

[Darius2006]

I didn't experience anything near that severe. The timing was rarely off by much when I used it. Detail looked crisp and clear for me at all levels. And I don't sweat the lack of visible arterial street names at wide zoom-- the map would be a cluttered mess otherwise. ANY map for this purpose.

The issues I had were already reported but I'll briefly repeat here:

-app crashed twice
-satellites slow to lock
-voice gave wrong instructions at one point

I also don't really have an issue with the fees. I think they're very reasonable, and it's unrealistic to expect EVERYTHING to be free. There are significant costs involved with obtaining and maintaining the required data.

It is ok to pay for value added but routing and voioce commands are already offered by all embedded car navigation devices - price starting from $100.
So what you get is not added value.
Obtaining and maintaining required data (meant maps, POI, routing)
is financed by maps updates.

There is already a number of virtual navigation systems on a market oferring no maps but device generated roads graphics from vector data delivered to navigation device by GPRS, cell phone connected and always on.
WayFinder, NaviExpert and others.
But what you pay is for data transfer only, not for routing data, voice commands.

It is ok if you have flat-rate and always on, as on connection lost your gps navigation generates nothing, no streets, no voice commands, no routing, as no maps are preloaded on memory card.

Darius
Darius

[Darius2006]

Ok. MaemoMapper is great great great application, great implementation.
Unfortunately it works with Google/MS/Yahoo/ OSM maps downloaded from the Internet and out free access to maps can be restricted or cut off any time.
Navit is another navigation application to work for Linux , based on Garmin maps read from memory card.
It offers routing and voice commands as any embedded navigation device and no Internet connection is required to have it working.

Darius

[YoDude]

I never thought about the fact that the nav software might be hiking the price up by a lot... if that's the case, leave the hardware in place, and make it a separate bundle... for what I'd use it for I'd be aces with Maemo-Mapper.

I doubt that it is. It pro'ly is a wash as far as their model may be concerned. The "free" software will promote sales of the pay for play software.

I have a gut feeling that this won't be the last we see of this business model and I suspect there will be a few others who will give us "free" crippleware in order to create this new class of con$umer device.

The hardware is, what it is and the current price of an N800 is a dang bargain. I would think that the transmissive/reflective screen was the most costly new addition.
...even so, Nokia is starting out giving a discount on the N810 bringing the price down to arround $409 for most.

The N800 stayed at full retail from all suppliers for at least a couple of months.

[Rocketman]

There are significant costs involved with obtaining and maintaining the required data.To be precise, it costs $8.2 Billion Dollars to acquire the data...but now that Nokia owns Navteq I am going to have very high expectations for their mapping packages. Thus far, Nokia's GPS solutions have uniformly sucked, both in terms of sub-par GPS performance, lousy software and poor map sources. It seems like half the people on this board spend their time being Nokia apologists. Nokia does a lot of things right and attention should be called to those things, but equally one should call a spade a spade.

[sevo]

Unfortunately it works with Google/MS/Yahoo/ OSM maps downloaded from the Internet and out free access to maps can be restricted or cut off any time.


Maps can be cached. OSM is under a CC license (so even if they die, you could legally set up your own server with their data), and MM can handle GIS maps as well (most GIS servers are operated by governmental agencies, under the FOI act or similar rules, so their data can't get lost over a change of license either). Besides, with that amount of free map data about, even if Google, MS and Yahoo revert to non-free business models, many other services would immediately step in.

The point against Maemo Mapper is another: It is no navigation software, and until something similar to OSM with a focus on routing metadata takes off, it won't be good navigation software, no matter what effort MM itself would make at it - routing without up-to-date congestion rates, construction sites and the like is barely more efficient than following signposts.

Sevo

[Darius2006]

To be precise, it costs $8.2 Billion Dollars to acquire the data...but now that Nokia owns Navteq I am going to have very high expectations for their mapping packages. Thus far, Nokia's GPS solutions have uniformly sucked, both in terms of sub-par GPS performance, lousy software and poor map sources. It seems like half the people on this board spend their time being Nokia apologists. Nokia does a lot of things right and attention should be called to those things, but equally one should call a spade a spade.

What you mean is not a cost to acquire the data but a sum paid by the highest bidder in auction to acquire Navteq corporation.
Value of maps is much less or to say in other words, has been overvalued.
But, on the other hand, TomTom also paid a lot of money to acquire TeleAtlas.

Buy want counts is not maps but market share in vector maps world.

I am sure, you are aware, maps are not build by cars travelling each new build road in the world.
Road tree system in electronic form is available for purchase from Highways authority in each specific country so to have your maps updated maps developer doesn't have to visit each new built road and enter it separately into navigation maps repository.
He buys a ready made product in electronic from from roads administration.

Another way is to have satellite nimages converted into vector maps
and have road extracted from satellite images.
I worked for CT /USG tomography projects and intelligent image processing of medical images shows you how to have roads only extracted from satellite images.

Finally, you can get and use maps for free visiting Google maps/ Google Earth, Yahoo maps, MS maps web servers.
You can get free maps from open source maps projects like OpenStreet and others.

So maps have some value but to use them you don't need to pay much.
Some car navigation systems in US start from as low as $100.
(road maps + routing + voice commands + hardware).

Maemo Mapper is based on maps accessed through Internet (Google, Yahoo, OpenStreet and others) and using it you pay nothing.

So maps business, navigation business sometimes generates no profit at all as there are hundreds of gps car navigation devices and systems on the market nowadays.

Darius

Darius

[jussik]

Besides, with that amount of free map data about, even if Google, MS and Yahoo revert to non-free business models, many other services would immediately step in.


1. US is the only place with free map data. At least in Europe finding anything usable is pretty much impossible...
2. Google, MS and Yahoo already have non-free business models -- cacheing their data in Maemo Mapper is infringing copyright, no doubt about it. Openstreetmap and (US) public data are the only legal options. If they (Google et al) could prevent leeching maps without side-effects, they would.

[frethop]

Well, it sounds like folks here have some high hopes for the future of nav products on Nseries devices. That's encouraging.

And I'm reminded even as I am complaining about it that the business model for nav software on other Nseries devices -- I also have an N95, for example -- is the same. Map data is there, but actual navigation costs.

If someone wanted to buy the N810 now for the navigation capability -- part of the reason I wanted it -- I'd advise them to stick with the N800. It's not worth it for a built-in GPS -- at least not now.

But, YES, there are lots of other reasons to grab an N810....:D

-- Mike

[YoDude]

Well, it sounds like folks here have some high hopes for the future of nav products on Nseries devices. That's encouraging.

And I'm reminded even as I am complaining about it that the business model for nav software on other Nseries devices -- I also have an N95, for example -- is the same. Map data is there, but actual navigation costs.

If someone wanted to buy the N810 now for the navigation capability -- part of the reason I wanted it -- I'd advise them to stick with the N800. It's not worth it for a built-in GPS -- at least not now.

But, YES, there are lots of other reasons to grab an N810....:D

-- Mike

And I think when and if some activate and use the navigation software they may be disappointed that it doesn't have all the features of a comparably priced, purpose built navigator like TomTom or Garmin.

The point is that the Tablet itself should lead the purchasing decision...

That is; it is a well featured, portable, internet access device that can also be used as a navigator.

I would not consider it a navigator that can also be used to access the internet.

The plus for me is that future features and improvements of the navigator app can more easily be implemented running on the tablet.
A purpose built navigator on the other hand, has just the amount of hardware required by the app by economic design... Not much more is available for future features and improvements.

[barry99705]

Hell, I'd be happy if my N800 with the new os would see my gps more than once! I know it's still really not supported hardware/software combination, but if this is how it's going to be when it really is supported, I'm going back to the current os. The mapping software really does suck though. Waaay out dated, at least in my area. The roads aren't even named right! According to the map, I live out in the middle of a field. My house was built in '82.

[Texrat]

It seems like half the people on this board spend their time being Nokia apologists. Nokia does a lot of things right and attention should be called to those things, but equally one should call a spade a spade.

I'll call you on that statistic, Rocket. Your perception is far from reality... especially given that well over half the people on this board don't even post. :p

And in all seriousness, you're doing your best it seems to skew the perception hard toward one extreme. Someone has to balance pure negativity, seeing as how any extreme outlook is unrealistic. IF that effort turned out to be 50/50, what would the problem be, exactly? It would look fair to ME... ;)

[twaelti]

I am sure, you are aware, maps are not build by cars travelling each new build road in the world.
Road tree system in electronic form is available for purchase from Highways authority in each specific country so to have your maps updated maps developer doesn't have to visit each new built road and enter it separately into navigation maps repository.
He buys a ready made product in electronic from from roads administration.

IMHO, map data IS indeed also built by cars travelling the roads - at least in densly populated areas with much restricted roads. This is the only way to collect reliable, detailed information. (A friend of mine used to be such a driver...)

[sevo]

1. US is the only place with free map data. At least in Europe finding anything usable is pretty much impossible...


Data generally are royalty-free (but aren't freely accessible, and O&S boards will often charge a fortune for delivering them), while end-user-ready maps often aren't. But a growing number of O&S boards are setting up GIS servers - for example you can access O&S maps of all of Germany at 1:25000 to 1:100000 resolution though the state and federal GIS services.

Sevo

[Darius2006]

Ok. You are right. Map data is also built by cars travelling the roads and is the way Google is building StreetView database.
I prepared Maps Interactive Update Proiject for Maemo challenge at maemo.org as Navteq developer, unfortunately maemo project manager from Nokia three times denied my access to maemo.org, telling there were already thousands of developers logged in (and only 500 N810s to be donated to developers).
So Nokia is not especially interested in development of interactive maps data involving community support.
So I am face-lifting, upgrading and managing some other maps data projects involving community interactive support.

Darius

[Gumenite_Mecheta]

Hi there I'm looking forward to buy N810, so far I have e few major questions about the built in GPS - what is the chipset ?Anybody have an Idea ? Can I use Tom Tom 6 software for Symbian with this tablet ?
Angel

[ara178]

I have already returned my N810. The major reason for me was the GPS and WIFI, when I found out the routing and the voice-guided turn-by-turn navigation in Nokia N810 is a purchased item, I decided to return my N810 and settled for a $135 GPS from Garmin, with voice-guided turn-by-turn navigation, but no wifi - well I have my Blackberry. The n810 without a GPS system doesn't justify the $479 price tag.

[Rocketman]

Hi there I'm looking forward to buy N810, so far I have e few major questions about the built in GPS - what is the chipset ?Anybody have an Idea ? Can I use Tom Tom 6 software for Symbian with this tablet ?
Angel

Gumentite_Mecheta, the Nokia Tablets run a version of Linux, not Symbian.

[TA-t3]

Ah, well. Maps aren't enough. It's tougher to write good navigation software than many people think. Sounds to me like TomTom solved the problems reported in Navicore years ago. For example, my 2004 version of TT comes not only with regional maps, but also with a special map called 'major roads of Europe', and to navigate from Paris to Wien (Vienna) you just load mjoe and off you go. Then, if you need to go to some minor road not covered in mjoe when you're near your target you just switch to the local region. I believe it's an even smoother operation in newer versions of TT (I bought TT5 too but as I'm happy enough with the older version I've yet to install it).

[cuda440]

Just my two cents worth. I purchased a 700 a few months ago, and was saving up to purchase the NavKit from Nokia when they pulled it. I presume because WayFinder bought Navicore, and Nokia bought Navteq. I was able to download the Navicore software and install on the 770, during the attempts to validate the key code I put in (Navicore will not sell me a key code) I was abel to "see" my GPS receiver and was able to locate me correctly on the map. I live in Ontario Canada.
It seemed to work OK, but as I said Navicore would not sell me a key and well Nokia were just as unwilling. If it was a cell phone no problem. Has anyone gotten NavIt to work, I am not a linux guy and the compile just gave me errors.
Would anyone that is unhappy with their Navicore be willing to sell me the key code and DVD, I need nothing else...

Thanks

[Munk]

My problem with MaemoMapper is that it is using graphical images of maps rather than vector data. This is about 10 times larger (or more) in file size. Since I drive most of California I would need about 10 gigabytes just to hold SOME of the levels of detail that I would truely want to have.

That is where NaviCore or whatever it is called would probably shine. But, in the videos of this program, it's too dang slow to find any POI's. My older Pocket PC/GPS combo with Mapopolis (now out of the consumer level business) gave me tons of configurable options for road detail, zooming, POI's for a great price. It seems using the Nokia N810 and its mapping solution is a downgrade.

[Capt'n Corrupt]

It seems using the Nokia N810 and its mapping solution is a downgrade.

... or in its infancy. It's likely that the quality of software will improve in the future!


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

[YoDude]

My problem with MaemoMapper is that it is using graphical images of maps rather than vector data. This is about 10 times larger (or more) in file size. Since I drive most of California I would need about 10 gigabytes just to hold SOME of the levels of detail that I would truely want to have.

That is where NaviCore or whatever it is called would probably shine. But, in the videos of this program, it's too dang slow to find any POI's. My older Pocket PC/GPS combo with Mapopolis (now out of the consumer level business) gave me tons of configurable options for road detail, zooming, POI's for a great price. It seems using the Nokia N810 and its mapping solution is a downgrade.

The POI problem has been resolved in OS2008. It now default opens with a list within approx. 50 miles to the displayed map location. In the Navicore version it would search and attempt to load every POI location if you didn't specify a proximity first.

POI's now are quite useful on the thing. :)

>> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11911

[Darius2006]

My problem with MaemoMapper is that it is using graphical images of maps rather than vector data. This is about 10 times larger (or more) in file size. Since I drive most of California I would need about 10 gigabytes just to hold SOME of the levels of detail that I would truely want to have.

That is where NaviCore or whatever it is called would probably shine. But, in the videos of this program, it's too dang slow to find any POI's. My older Pocket PC/GPS combo with Mapopolis (now out of the consumer level business) gave me tons of configurable options for road detail, zooming, POI's for a great price. It seems using the Nokia N810 and its mapping solution is a downgrade.

Ok. Nokia couldn't support development of Maemo Mapper as maps came from Google/Yahoo/MS/ OpenStreet, Nokia's competitors on a maps and navigation market.
Nokia has no previous experience with navigation.
Marketing campaign targeted businessmen who bought N95 and N95 8GB to install navigation software.
It works fine as gizmo but is not true navigation.

Nokia lost her chance to make money in navigation market.
Maps alone generate no profit.
Maps installed on cell phone don't generate profit too.
Nokia's products are very inpensive in Europe,
Nokia 95 8GB at $1300 in Vobis network.

Low quality navigation in E-Series phone generates no profit.
There are already hundreds of embedded car navigation devices on a market , some priced as low as $100.
Nokia has lost that market forever.

Pay-per-track navigation is to expensive.
N770, N800, N810 is not commercial products.
Nokia tablets are hgigh-end products for Linux/Debian fans only.
Windows Mobile fans prefer ASUS, Samsung with TV out.

I don't see any chance that situation can improve any time in a future.
US with 3G WiFi, Bluetooth, GPS, 16GB iPhone to be released early 2008
will not buy Nokia navigation any more.

Europe with overpriced Nokia products will give up local Nokia products
and starts private import from US
( US N95 8GB $600 vs. EU N95 8GB at $1300).

N770, N800, N810 is still by-product, to complicated for Windows Mobile fans, to complicated for Symbian fans, to expensive for Linux fans.

I wish Nokia all the best but market situation is getting only worse, as embedded car navigation products from Asia, US are so getting so cheap, Nokia has no chance to compete in Asia, US or on European market in the field of car navigation.

Price is what makes you next buyer.

Darius

[Capt'n Corrupt]

POI's now are quite useful on the thing. :)

>> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11911

I knew it would only be a matter of time! :)


}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Corrupt

[Darius2006]

Ah, well. Maps aren't enough. It's tougher to write good navigation software than many people think. Sounds to me like TomTom solved the problems reported in Navicore years ago. For example, my 2004 version of TT comes not only with regional maps, but also with a special map called 'major roads of Europe', and to navigate from Paris to Wien (Vienna) you just load mjoe and off you go. Then, if you need to go to some minor road not covered in mjoe when you're near your target you just switch to the local region. I believe it's an even smoother operation in newer versions of TT (I bought TT5 too but as I'm happy enough with the older version I've yet to install it).

My dear friend,

TomTom is already out of navigation business with old-generation embedded navigation devices based on RDS-TMC road data.

As you see, Navicore, WayFinder, Nav4All, NaviExpert, Maemo Mapper, Navit, Nokia maps, Google maps, Yahoo maps, MS maps and others,
all they come with virtual navigation, vector maps, generated by server and downloaded to navigation cell phone or PDA, tablet.

Communication is two-way, duplex over GPRS enabled cell phones.

Its is very badly vector maps systems - Navteq has been acquired by Nokia, having no experience with navigation and TeleAtlas by TomTom having no experience with cell phones.

We should give up an idea to of buying a new navigation in 1-2 years time to let new owners of vector maps systems to develop new 3D generation navigation systems, software, equipment.

Wjhat is already offered on a market are 5-years old systems, navigation ideas, 20 years old navigation, routing algorithms.

Nothing new can be expected over next 1-2 years.

Developing 3D generation navigation systems is not very complicated.
The only probvlem is no market demand for new, expensive systems and charging plans. Pay-per-route can't work as long as you get free routing from your $100 navigation devices with voice commands.

Darius

[gnuite]

Ok. MaemoMapper is great great great application, great implementation.
Unfortunately it works with Google/MS/Yahoo/ OSM maps downloaded from the Internet and out free access to maps can be restricted or cut off any time.
Just a clarification here....

Technically, OpenStreetMap is the only officially supported map source for Maemo Mapper, and it is free, and my communications with them have implied that they will always be available freely for use by Maemo Mapper. Maemo Mapper complies with OpenStreetMap's license and is not infringing on their copyright.

[Darius2006]

Just a clarification here....

Technically, OpenStreetMap is the only officially supported map source for Maemo Mapper, and it is free, and my communications with them have implied that they will always be available freely for use by Maemo Mapper. Maemo Mapper complies with OpenStreetMap's license and is not infringing on their copyright.

Thanks.
Does it mean using Maemo Mapper with Google/MS/Yahoo maps
can infringe on their respective copyrights ?

Darius

[technut]

Thanks.
Does it mean using Maemo Mapper with Google/MS/Yahoo maps
can infringe on their respective copyrights ?Read the Maemo Mapper License (http://gnuite.com:8080/nokia770/maemo-mapper/):Maemo Mapper is released under the terms and conditions outlined in the GPL.

Also, to (hopefully) cover my own butt legally, use of this software requires and implies that you agree that you understand that using Maemo Mapper to download maps from a commercial map repository may be considered a violation of copyright law and that John Costigan cannot be held responsible for any of your actions related thereto.

So yes, if YOU use it with commercial repositories then YOU are violating their copyright. It has nothing to do with Maemo Mapper, it's all on your shoulders Darius. Shall we notify them about you? ;)

[Moonshine]

Is it me or is there no way to have any street names visible in 3D view? I've zoomed and zoomed and zoomed...

[YoDude]

Is it me or is there no way to have any street names visible in 3D view? I've zoomed and zoomed and zoomed...

They appear as you approach them as I recall.

[TA-t3]

Darius,
Whatever you say. But it doesn't change the quite common opinion that TT navigation software runs rings about most other efforts, with the exception of certain special cases where some of the others have an advantage. And TT has been working well on cell phones for quite a while (in fact a little too good, they're moved most of the effort there to the disadvantage of PDA users). And I still don't believe that ..developing 3D generation navigation systems isn't .. complicated. (Edit: For a moment there I thought you meant 3D, as in 3 dimensional view as in TT and others, I assume you meant 3rd generation. My comment still holds I think.) If it were true, everybody would be doing it. And they aren't. I've seen so many high-prized, big, good-looking, but badly working navigation systems. From the built-in, $3500 systems of cars to Hertz Neverlost (more known as Everlost): They are not good. There are very few good navigation systems on the market, at least when you look outside some single specific attribute.

[Munk]

Dang, I was downloading maps for West USA and it kept stopping at different points saying something like "Unable to download map" (I have 1.7 Gig free on the internal card). I exited the program eventually after trying for hours. The program wouldn't start up after this point. It just goes white for about 10 seconds and then back to the hildon desktop. So, I unloaded "Map" from the application manager, thinking I could just re-install it. But, it's not there.

Any thoughts where I can re-download the map software again? :confused:

[emory]

Dang, I was downloading maps for West USA and it kept stopping at different points saying something like "Unable to download map" (I have 1.7 Gig free on the internal card). I exited the program eventually after trying for hours. The program wouldn't start up after this point. It just goes white for about 10 seconds and then back to the hildon desktop. So, I unloaded "Map" from the application manager, thinking I could just re-install it. But, it's not there.

Any thoughts where I can re-download the map software again? :confused:



Go to your memory card in the file manager or on your computer, and remove the top-level folder called `map` or `maps`. Delete that, then fire up the Maps program again.

I still cannot download Eastern US maps. It goes for an hour or so then tanks about half-way through the download. I have 1 8GB card and one 2GB card, and it will write to the Internal card slot, and I didnt have enough room. :P

But removed the bogus directory, swapped the cards and I should be aces, but it still fails to download the maps. I have been slumming it with my N95s GPS and Maps in the meantime ;)

[technut]

Any thoughts where I can re-download the map software again? :confused:I haven't seen it in any repositories, but the Wayfinder site says (http://www.wayfinder.com/?id=5500):
» I uninstalled Map application from my Nokia internet tablet. How do I get it back?
The Map application can be downloaded and installed from an application repository using Application Manager of your Internet Tablet. Alternatively you can get Map application back by flashing OS 2008 edition to your device again.

[gnuite]

Thanks.
Does it mean using Maemo Mapper with Google/MS/Yahoo maps
can infringe on their respective copyrights ?
Officially, it means that I don't know enough about Google's or Microsoft's licenses to make a judgement either way. It probably depends on how you use their maps.

[Milhouse]

<rant>
Good God, the Map app is cr@p! I played with it yesterday on a N800 and not only did it crash several times for no apparent reason, it's horribly slow in 2D mode and even worse in 3D (unusable in fact). It randomly hangs for several seconds when asked to perform simple tasks and is quite honestly a horrible application - Nokia won't be getting any money from me to activate the disabled features (I will be getting a N810, and I won't bother with this built-in app).

OK, it's a beta you cry - well yes, the OS is a beta but unfortunately it appears the Map application has been developed by an outside contractor and it's not going to get any further attention at this point in time so it's the real deal. And Map bugs won't be accepted in Bugzilla either. It's Opera all over again folks but a hundred times worse - at least Opera was reasonably good quality closed source software, this Map app just sucks big time and Nokia once again don't have the ability to fix any of the bugs.

Nokia just paid $8bn for Navteq and if this is the best they can do they've just wasted $8bn, I'd rather buy a TomTom and have simple to use, reliable and very usable mapping functionality.

Maemo Mapper looks a far more interesting product to me now - I'd have paid for the additional features in the official Nokia app but the quality simply isn't there in the free features so I'd be a fool to pay for more of the same. Judging by what I've heard about it's development there will be no fixes or improvements any time soon.
</rant>

If you have a problem with the Map application, your best bet is to file a complaint with Nokia Care as Bugzilla is closed for this application - I'll be filing several comlpaints about the Map application to http://www.nokia.co.uk/email as apparently complaints received via Nokia Care are the only way that Nokia management will take any notice of the dross they are now shipping.

Ari Jaaksi spoke about quality being a key focus for future development - I guess someone forgot to tell the contractor who developed this mapping shite.

[framerate]

i for one just expected it to work like my navicore kit. I was very happy with the way that software performed for me time and time again.

Why didn't they just straight port that software to os2008 and N810?

Anyone know if the old navicore package will install on a N810?

[frethop]

<rant>
Good God, the Map app is cr@p!

Thanks, Milhouse. Most folks here have validated my complaints about the application, but you validated the intensity of my feelings. I was quite frankly amazed at how poorly that application was done. And that Nokia didn't realize it and yank it from OS2008.

-- Mike

[icerabbit]

My two main reasons for looking at upgrading to the N810 (and participating in the giveaway contest) are - quite understandably - the built-in keyboard and GPS / navigation.

So, I really appreciate everybody's feedback they posted here and in other threads, GPS and general. I didn't expect the thing to be perfect, but it really sounds second rate. Several reports and video of slow GPS locking, map performance, rendering issues, etc. ... and the fact that you have to pay an additional routing tax. It is not necessarily a huge cost, and I understand they leave it as an option without jacking up the base price, but when you can buy $100 - $150 devices that include the maps & routing & voice ... which may very well outperform the N810 ... I have no motivation to pay for routing or voice. If they included that, and charge a small fee for significant map / software updates in 6 months. That's a different story. The other thing is carrying the license over. It seems people that have the current software & GPS kit are left in the cold.

So, anyway, the GPS performance & routing tax has me looking elsewhere for my next UMPC.

I will stick around with my N800 though :)

[dylann800]

I really don't get it myself. I understand that MM is not really navigation software but through all the explanations as to why things are the way there are for mapping software, $$$, etc... to me it all comes down to this:

Old *** Axim x5 with outdated iGuidance and CF GPS receiver
trumps
New Nokia 800 with MM and BT GPS.

Seriously, I have no use for non vector data, internet only mapping. I was in NYC this weekend and my cell phone battery died. The nokia couldn't even locate an address without an internet connection(with stored maps). I wanted to throw the thing in the gutter and dust off my old trusty x5.

Its great to have satellite maps, but most of us need stored road and address data. At least I do. And I would gladly pay the $100 or so that I did for my iGuidance.

Is Navicore worth buying?

[YoDude]

I really don't get it myself. I understand that MM is not really navigation software but through all the explanations as to why things are the way there are for mapping software, $$$, etc... to me it all comes down to this:

Old *** Axim x5 with outdated iGuidance and CF GPS receiver
trumps
New Nokia 800 with MM and BT GPS.

Seriously, I have no use for non vector data, internet only mapping. I was in NYC this weekend and my cell phone battery died. The nokia couldn't even locate an address without an internet connection(with stored maps). I wanted to throw the thing in the gutter and dust off my old trusty x5.

Its great to have satellite maps, but most of us need stored road and address data. At least I do. And I would gladly pay the $100 or so that I did for my iGuidance.

Is Navicore worth buying?


Yes... for the very reasons you mentioned...
And it is a commercial app, and it is not as well developed as TomTom or Garmin...
But, it is the only game in town. Perhaps if we use it and some purchase the navigation features it will develop further or others will take notice and there could be a TomTom or Garmin offered in the future.

It pisses Open Source heads off because they can't easily tweak it like they can other apps available for the Tablets...


However, if you're like me, there are certain apps you want to be "finished" if your going to be carrying around the dang thing. Especially a portable dang thing.

If the fact that it is not "open" bothers someone,
Fine then... they can deinstall the FREE map, POI, and location service and build their own.
They can then tweak and change it to their hearts content. :)

I used both Navicore and M/M with OS2007...
They both have their purpose. I have even run them concurently. GPS went to the app in the foreground but M/M would continue the track and Navicore would simply recalculate the route when they were switched back.

It was nice having Sat views preloaded for my destination on M/M but getting there was left to Navicore.

From what I see of the Wayfinder app, the GUI is improved over Navicore and I'm waiting to activate routing functions with my old Navicore license to see what else has changed.

BTW, If you were able to buy a N800 @ $200 and Navicore @ $99, IMHO you got yourself about the best handheld navigator $299 can buy once OS2008 is fully online. (GPS sold seperately and can be had for another $49. )

On OS2008 I have put about 120 miles on Wayfinder just as a moving map. It didn't hang, stall, crash or show me as being anywhere but where I actually was, during the times I used it.

[framerate]

To correct my previous post it does appear that n800 navicore owner's license keys will work on 2008 wayfinder; but when wayfinder goes live :/

[emory]

I wish Nokia all the best but market situation is getting only worse, as embedded car navigation products from Asia, US are so getting so cheap, Nokia has no chance to compete in Asia, US or on European market in the field of car navigation.


Nokia isn't going after that market. They are focusing in on pedestrians, public transit users, and bicyclists. They have released more than a few statements to that effect.