This question not searched, title OK?

[sungrove]

I'm not going to name names and I hope noone else will in this thread. But what is this rediculous and constant hassling people about not searching first about? I just read a thread where someone was harassed for not making a good title for their post. Yes, I get that it's a very good idea to search first and yes a better title can be helpful. But do people really think that harassing people about those things is going to change their habits? Don't get me wrong. I don't know what the solution is. But I am totally tired of some of the self appointed search police here. Maybe you search police could give the rest of us a break from it for a while. :rolleyes:

NS

[jwhelan]

amen brother

[GeneralAntilles]

Because when you spend a lot of your time trying to help, it gets a little grating to have the same questions asked over and over and over again. It's not easy trying to answer everybody's question. Those of us who do put a lot of time and energy into trying to help people, so I'm sorry if requesting that people put a little of their own time and energy into doing a little research before asking questions which have been answered many times before.

You would understand if you answered as many questions as I have. :)

[Milhouse]

I guess there are three responses I'll give when someone posts a question that has already been answered a dozen times and can be found with a little effort on the part of the poster (OP):

1. Post the answer yet again
2. Post a comment instructing the OP to search for their answer
3. Post nothing as it's just a pain in the arse repeating what is already available

I believe that once a question has been answered more than half a dozen times in separate threads it becomes a little unnecessary to keep answering it again and again, leaving me with options 2 & 3.

Option 3 is far less helpful than option 2, so often I will take the option 2 route but I think I should at least provide the keywords the OP needs to search with (I must admit I haven't always done this, but will try to in future). Telling someone to use search is an entirely valid answer, provided they are told what to search for (which may not always be obvious to the OP).

There's no reason for it to get nasty though or for anyone to resort to harassment, but unfortunately some OP's don't like being made to look stupid/lazy in public, and some posters are possibly a little too aggressive at times when telling the OP to go search (too much coffee, not enough sex, tripped over the dog, whatever). :)

What GeneralAntilles says is correct though, there are people here who spend a lot of time answering queries and it's often annoying to see someone post the same often answered questions without making any effort to see if it's already been answered before - that's pretty lame behaviour and ignorance isn't always an excuse. :)

[technut]

I know I'm going to choose option 3 a lot more now, because I'm tired of helping people who are too lazy to do even the most basic search to try to find an answer to their question.

I've spent MANY MANY hours searching for answers to my own questions and the questions of others. If an OP can't be bothered to make even the slightest effort to help themselves, then why should I make any effort to help them?

Thanks Sungrove, for making me see the error of my ways.

[convulted]

sungrove, as regards the poster being "harassed" for not having an appropriate title, there is a very simple explanation (I do not harass such people myself, but I do point out "bad" titles): if the title of the thread is not descriptive enough, it will most probably be overlooked by the more helpful and active members in here, as well as by newbies who want to find out information for themselves. It is much better to have a title along the lines of: "Memory corruption bug in OS2007HE" than "Do you guys have this problem too?"; I hope you see what I mean here.
As regards your other point, I wholeheartedly agree with Millhouse and will try and do my best to point to some good search keywords in my replies.

HTH.

[fanoush]

We could just ignore anyone asking same question again but this does make situation worse.

1. Anyone asking same question again makes situation harder for people who come next searching for same answer. Next person must read more threads and may end giving up and asking the question yet again making situation even worse. I think we are already at this stage now :-)

2. Also when such threads are ignored by those who could provide correct answer the thread grows anyway by answers from other clueless people and confuse those who come next even more. Example - there are several threads about USB host mode. I have personally answered in several such ones that host mode with OS2007 based N800 is possible and no, you don't need extra power for low power devices and still several similar threads popped up with people still claiming this is not possible or telling other people that they need extra power, etc.

It is quite frustrating to see this forum degenerate into mess. And you are doing it to yourself.

Maybe you search police could give the rest of us a break from it for a while.

Yes, this is still valid choice. The helpful ones can simply go away.

[bunanson]

I'm not going to name names
NS

I was puzzled by the title for a few seconds and I just cant stop laughing. You are definitely funny. I read those posts and that is exactly what I felt, a little bit too much. However, s/he does know a little bit more than others, I just look the other way. My wife keeps reminding me, pretty girl can always get away with anything, and you can only jealous :o.


bun

[sungrove]

Fanoush writes: The helpful ones can simply go away.[/QUOTE]

I'd like to appologize for the rant aspect of my original post. But I want to thank you guys for taking seriously a subject that seems to be of interest and concern for many of us for different reasons. I obviously can't and don't speak for the group, but those that have responded to this post really should be appreciated for the help you provide dayly to folks. I particularly recall both Milhouse and Fanoush spending time trying to help me. So, please, if you want to go away, OK, but we like/ need your help if you care to offer it.

I easily see your point of view about feeling frustrated that people seem to just ask questions over and over again. I would like to thank Milhouse for laying out a constructive outline of options as responses to this problem. As I said before, I don't have the answers, but at some point you will get tired of answering and we will be timid to ask perhaps. I think maybe part of the problem here is the knowledge gap between us. This can be a problem I think for both parties. I may do a search to look for the answer to my question, I have read the posts. But because I don't have some of the background knowledge or vocabulary , I simply don't understand enough of the details of the solution the writer has offered to be able to make the last link in my head or maybe several things appear to me to be missing in the solution offered. Now I'm not saying that you are offering incomplete solutions. It's probably more that, given your knowledge , you may leave out some details that you take for granted as being part of the proceedure. And yah, I get that to fill in all those details could take more time than you are willing to put into it-quite understandable. Anyway, so I put a question together that I hope will elicit the answer I need. To you it just looks like I have just asked a question that someone else has already asked because it really is the same question in some ways-especially from your more educated point of view. To me it may seem less so because I need to understand it in a particular way.
This has been particularly so for me in situations that may require the use of Osso-xterm . You may give me the code to type in, but I don't even know how to activate that code.
So, obviously I would benefit greatly from simply becoming more educated about Linux. On the other hand, although greatly appreciated, I can totally understand action of simply not answering the same question again. I just think that would be preferable to being told once again to search out the answer.

NS

[GeneralAntilles]

I think maybe part of the problem here is the knowledge gap between us. This can be a problem I think for both parties. I may do a search to look for the answer to my question, I have read the posts. But because I don't have some of the background knowledge or vocabulary , I simply don't understand enough of the details of the solution the writer has offered to be able to make the last link in my head or maybe several things appear to me to be missing in the solution offered. Now I'm not saying that you are offering incomplete solutions. It's probably more that, given your knowledge , you may leave out some details that you take for granted as being part of the proceedure. And yah, I get that to fill in all those details could take more time than you are willing to put into it-quite understandable. Anyway, so I put a question together that I hope will elicit the answer I need. To you it just looks like I have just asked a question that someone else has already asked because it really is the same question in some ways-especially from your more educated point of view. To me it may seem less so because I need to understand it in a particular way.


Then reply to the thread in which you found the solution with a request for more detail. I hardly see how finding a solution that you don't understand warrants a new thread when a perfectly good one already exists. Posting the new thread will only fragment the solution further, you do yourself and everybody else who searches for the solution a disservice by doing so. Clarifying details in the original thread will help everybody more.

At worst, if you absolutely must create a new thread, at least mention something about the fact that you searched and found a solution (or didn't), and that you didn't understand. Outline some of the points you missed, link to some of the solutions. Give us something to know that you've put forth some effort. I know I'm a lot more inclined to help somebody who has put forth the effort to help themselves than somebody who just spams new topics whenever they meet some minor problem and expects everybody to hand them answers on a silver platter.

Nobody here has a problem with helping people with less experience, what we do have a problem with is duplicating effort over, and over, and over, and over again. :)

[RioT]

We could just ignore anyone answering same question again but this does make situation worse.

1. Anyone asking same question again makes situation harder for people who come next searching for same answer. Next person must read more threads and may end giving up and asking the question yet again making situation even worse. I think we are already at this stage now :-)

2. Also when such threads are ignored by those who could provide correct answer the thread grows anyway by answers from other clueless people and confuse those who come next even more. Example - there are several threads about USB host mode. I have personally answered in several such ones that host mode with OS2007 based N800 is possible and no, you don't need extra power for low power devices and still several similar threads popped up with people still claiming this is not possible or telling other people that they need extra power, etc.


I wish there was an easy way to filter these repeated post out and delete them...

[Red]

Sungrove, people have complained about this sort of thing before. Did you search before posting this thread?

/looks around.

What!?

/gets coat.

...

Being serious though, although I am not particularly active on these forums, I am elsewhere (on a different topic) and I completely understand why the "active helpers" here feel the way they do. When you answer a question for the twentieth time, or as I sometimes do - cut and paste your response from the previous thread - it is hard to maintain the cheerful and sunny disposition, especially when you get the occasional rude poster who seems to think that it is your fault that they cannot do what they want to do.

I know that ideally we should maintain a frequently updated FAQ, indexed and searchable on the most commonly searched keywords, but that's an awful lot of work for people who actually are just like you and me, have day jobs, lives, social lives and want to get on with enjoying them. ;)

[fpp]

Unexpectedly, this actually turns out to be an excellent and useful thread :-)

I would like to add something that hasn't been reminded to newcomers yet : encouraging members to a) search before posting and b) use descriptive titles when they create new threads, are in a way the same thing.

When you need to find something buried in two year's worth of accumulated posts, it's sometimes difficult to find the right keywords. Even then, if those keywords are not very specific, there can be a lot of "noise" mixed up with the useful hits.

One of the best ways around this is to use advanced search and first search in topic titles only : if your keyword(s) appear in the topic title itself there's a much better chance the contents will be useful to you.

Of course, that only works if the topic creator went to the trouble of composing a meaningful title for it. Otherwise, the info you need may be hidden inside a "help me!" or a "Strange problem!" topic, and you will have a harder time finding it...

[bunanson]

I know that ideally we should maintain a frequently updated FAQ, indexed and searchable on the most commonly searched keywords

This IS the answer. Somebody need to pick up the job. Some of us that willing to donnate the time and effort. Before that, just like any public forum, the 'ruder's can continue to be rude, and although offering help that may NOT even be appreciated, and the newbie continue to post the way they are, and put the 'ruder's in ignore file ;). The forum is like a phone, you can either ignore it and let it ring off the hook or picking a fight. Finally, I do not know the purpose of helping others in a forum. Your only reward is,
1) I am a good boy scout, I help somebody.
2) Somebody appreciates my help and get less trouble.
3) Spread knowledge

ALL three purposes defeated by being rude. Think about it, please. I have seen many repeated questions, I answer them or ignore them depends on my time schedule. Telling people posting here to use the search function does NOT help. You really think an average joe walking on street will know how to post in a forum and registered and find this particular forum? Whoever post in this forum are pretty seasoned computer users. It just drives newbies away and INCREASE bandwidth. OP put in a 20 lines discussions on thread #9, I agree totally, things can be learned easier if explained from a different angles, several times sometimes. FAQ should solve the problems. Where are you?

bun

[EIPI]

I'm, pretty new to ITT, and have found it a valuable resource for learning more about my N800, the OS, accessories, etc. The learning process can get frustrating at times due to the large number of same topic threads, non-descriptive titles, off-topic replies, etc. Having said that, I have found the answers to most of my questions via the excellent responses and how-to's of the Members of this forum. Thank you.

Self control is pretty hard to excercise in forums such as these - it's just too easy to type a new thread without bothering to research first. The old saying "Listen twice as much as you talk" comes to mind.

I know that the topic of moderators (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6596&highlight=moderator) came up a while back. Is this something that should be revisited?

[geneven]

It is surprising how often someone says "you can easily answer your question by searching," and then it turns out that the question the user actually has has anomalous characteristics that mean it is NOT covered.

Also, from my examination of thousands of threads, I would say that many, many of them don't end up in a clearcut, unconfusing fashion that would be understood by a newbie. There are all kinds of extraneous details that a search will bring up, all of which will confuse many users more than enlighten them (I'm going partly by my eight years as an electronic support manager for a major corporation, now defunct.)

On the subject of titles, I agree with those who protest. It's like someone who drives up at 5 a.m. in your neighborhood and honks their horn fiercely, because they want to get the attention of the person they are picking up. The problem is, they also get the attention of everyone else in the neighborhood, many of whom would like to sleep.

A vague title is almost as rude, because it beckons everyone to "please help!!!!", even the people who don't know anything about the problem the poster goes on to describe.

By the way: where is the internet tablet FAQ? Why aren't we referring those duplicating questioners to the FAQ, like people do on most similar forums? Instead of saying "you idiot, try to learn search," you could say "see item 5 on the FAQ".

[ericdkirk]

I have said this before and gotten shot down... But I think we should use the wiki more, have a nice collection of directions to get stuff done, or a list of working GPS units. I just think that would be an easier place for people to find beginner stuff and it could be a little more organized than a forum.

[fpp]

Yes, everyone agrees that is the right solution. Now all we need is volunteers to write those FAQs in the Wiki :-)

[dont]

As a newb here:

Please don't tell us to just search. Actually taking the time to tell people to search instead of providing real help does read like FOAD.

Just say nothing, give us some search terms that you know work, or provide a link to an old thread that answers the question.

Or better yet (pretty please): answer the question just one more time, but put that answer in the wiki instead of a thread post.

[fpp]

Aren't you forgetting the beer and the shoe-shine ? Or are we getting away easy ? :)

[Red]

Shoe shine I can do. Please send your shoes to the address at the bottom of this post. ;)

Methinks I'll go and have a look at the wiki, and size up the amount of work needed to kick off a proper FAQ.

[Red]

Looks like someone has already made a start! Which one of you generous characters was it?

[fpp]

Seriously, though : I recall several (not many but several) occurrences, in the early days of ITT, of newbies having their questions answered by only-slightly-less newbies (but generally experienced Linux hands) and then following up with their own Wiki page to write down the solution in their own words. Works wonders when it happens...

[Benson]

I guess there are three responses I'll give when someone posts a question that has already been answered a dozen times and can be found with a little effort on the part of the poster (OP):

1. Post the answer yet again
2. Post a comment instructing the OP to search for their answer
3. Post nothing as it's just a pain in the arse repeating what is already available

Well, there's always:

4. Post a rude response suggesting that if they had searched, using <search terms>, they'd have found this thread<link to thread> where I already answered that question.

Of course, you could skip the rude bit, but calling helpless newbs by crude anatomical references can have a therapeutic effect.

[dont]

Seriously, though : I recall several (not many but several) occurrences, in the early days of ITT, of newbies having their questions answered by only-slightly-less newbies (but generally experienced Linux hands) and then following up with their own Wiki page to write down the solution in their own words. Works wonders when it happens...

So, if I posted a title, for example, 'For the Wiki - SD card speed recommendations' with the understanding that I would try to summarize any answers in the wiki then you experts might consider repeating yourself one last time and not tell me to go search myself?:)

I would buy that deal.

[dont]

Of course, you could skip the rude bit, but calling helpless newbs by crude anatomical references can have a therapeutic effect.

Yeah, they decide that they made a mistake in buying a tablet, return it if they can and move on with their lives. Nokia does not sell many tablets and gives up on the market. No N9xx for you.

Like it or not, you folks are Nokia's Marketing Department:D

[Karel Jansens]

Yes, everyone agrees that is the right solution. Now all we need is volunteers to write those FAQs in the Wiki :-)

It would be nice if we could get some structure. I'd be more than happy to contribute to faq-writing (provided it's about insanely easy subjects), but a high-level coordinator will be sorely needed.

I'd suggest a list of faq-volunteers is compiled somewhere, a coordinator is (s)elected among them and a list of subjects is then collected and presented for choosing/assigning.

I volunteer for coordinator only on the condition that I'm given absolute power. Oh, and I'll be needing a multi-terawatt laser on the Moon.

[Greyghost]

Yes, everyone agrees that is the right solution. Now all we need is volunteers to write those FAQs in the Wiki :-)

I agree, but boy this is tough problem to solve. I love to write and would happily contribute to the wiki, but
a) there's a lot of more 'senior' members who know more and
b) who would 'review' contributions for accuracy?

I really would enjoy helping as I think this is one of the most crucial aspects needed for this wonderful forum and the community it represents.

Should there be a 'wiki-manager'? Do we already have someone doing this? Reggie? How should/could this work?

Edit: I just saw Karel's post. I nominate him! Absolute power should be granted!

[fpp]

So, if I posted a title, for example, 'For the Wiki - SD card speed recommendations' with the understanding that I would try to summarize any answers in the wiki then you experts might consider repeating yourself one last time and not tell me to go search myself?:)
I would buy that deal.
If over 80% of all new topics starting with "For the Wiki -..." actually result in a new Wiki page with something useful in it, I'll but it too... willing to try, just to see :-)

[Karel Jansens]

Edit: I just saw Karel's post. I nominate him! Absolute power should be granted!

I was joking! There are a gazillion dudes/dudettes more qualified than me on this forum.

[dont]

If over 80% of all new topics starting with "For the Wiki -..." actually result in a new Wiki page with something useful in it, I'll but it too... willing to try, just to see :-)

Ok, I just posted my first question.

As far as your 80% figure is concerned - remember these are traceable public promises by individual members so if they renegue on their promise then you 'know where they live'.

[dont]

I was joking! There are a gazillion dudes/dudettes more qualified than me on this forum.

In any case, that would be not the 'wiki way'.

[fpp]

I agree, but boy this is tough problem to solve. I love to write and would happily contribute to the wiki, but
a) there's a lot of more 'senior' members who know more and
b) who would 'review' contributions for accuracy?


Greyghost, you're coming at this from the wrong angle. The most experienced and knowledgeable members (this having nothing much to do with membership "seniority", BTW) are almost always the wrong persons to be writing Wiki pages. Yes, they like chatting away and arguing in the forums, and often drop useful information this way and that. But generally they don't *like* to write, in the sense of writing up a subject as you'd do in school. And if they do, the very fact that they understand the subject well makes it hard for them to explain it at the level of others who don't, not assuming some things are self-evident or well known, etc. Finally they could be be using their precious time for better things, like criticizing Nokia, flaming away at clueless newbies... or coding :-)

As I said a few posts earlier, better results can be achieved when it's someone who didn't know the answer, but is interested in it, and actually *likes* writing, that sums it up in the Wiki... So don't fret that you're not "senior" enough, or not technical enough : those are actually qualities in this matter, so dive !

There goes a).

As for b) it's a simple matter of human psychology. A hundred thousand wiki pages don't bloom overnight because creating structured information on anything out of a blank page is *hard work*. OTOH, criticizing is easy. So is reading up, tssk-tssk'ing and correcting a bit here, adding a bit there.
You'll see that if you go to the effort of summing up your own understanding of a topic in a new page, then post a link to it in the forum asking for corrections and contributions to it, you'll almost always get more "peer review" than you bargained for :-)

I really would enjoy helping as I think this is one of the most crucial aspects needed for this wonderful forum and the community it represents.
Should there be a 'wiki-manager'? Do we already have someone doing this? Reggie? How should/could this work?
Edit: I just saw Karel's post. I nominate him! Absolute power should be granted!
Are you out of your mind or something ? :)

edit: and about that multi-terawatt laser on the Moon, I have another idea for it... :-)

[Karel Jansens]

Are you out of your mind or something ? :)

Phew. Glad to see sanity hasn't been thrown completely out of the window.

edit: and about that multi-terawatt laser on the Moon, I have another idea for it... :-)

Hmmm... Pray, do tell (steeples hands and puts on innocently-looking, yet eerily evil, interested face).

[sungrove]

[QUOTE=Red;104689]Sungrove, people have complained about this sort of thing before. Did you search before posting this thread?


That's very funny Red. I love your joke. :D

I really like the constructive direction this thread has taken. I think it's easy to be sypthetic with all sides.
I do like the idea of a FAQ section so that folks can simply look to see if their question has been answered already. If successful, such a thing could be very effective with the simpler questions that tend to come up over and over again.
I'm not yet familiar with the WIKI, but as has been suggested, maybe that can be used to develope answers to the more complex problems . So that I may write out a step by step procedure to solve a problem. Then you can try it and then edit what I have written to add detail I may have left out or to reflect your experience with the problem.
Some may say that such a system already exists. It's just a matter of making use of it. If so, great, we apparently just need to make better use of it.
I would like such a system for both helping others and to effectively get more out of my Nokia.
NS

[bunanson]

I go by my word. I can contribute typing, proof reading and, some organizing and computer bandwidth for a FAQ. I do not think I am at the caliber of editing/providing technical questions. I think everybody agree a FAQ is ripe by now, all we need is some organization or guru status. They do not have to do running job or nuts and bolts, I will offer my help.


bun

[fpp]

Phew. Glad to see sanity hasn't been thrown completely out of the window.

Well, as a very close neighbour to the Kingdom of Belgium, one needs to be especially mindful of whatever happens over there these days, neh ? :)
Hmmm... Pray, do tell (steeples hands and puts on innocently-looking, yet eerily evil, interested face).
Oh, it's not for me, it's for my friend Pitr, he has this little world domination side project :
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20060929&mode=classic
(and following)

[technut]

Looks like someone has already made a start! Which one of you generous characters was it?I created the Wiki FAQ (http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=FAQs%2C_Problems_and_Solutions) last night after reading the original post in this thread, and based on the discussion that Capt'n Corrupt started yesterday:
N810 and the Wiki: reducing redundant threads (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=104614#post104614)

I stayed up waaaay past my bedtime to create a basic structure and answer a few questions to get things started. (If anyone has a better structure or format the fix is easy... edit it. It may need revising eventually anyway if it gets too large.) And since I was on a roll, I also added a new article (http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Internet:_Reducing_web_data_traffi c) to the Wiki

So before you all went on and on in this thread about needing a FAQ in the Wiki, there was already a thread about it and the FAQ was already started. (Which you would have known if you had done a basic search before posting about how badly a FAQ needed.)

For all the talk about how a Wiki FAQ is the answer, only Red actually looked at the Wiki and perhaps gave a thought to starting it. And THAT is the reason these things usually fail... lots of talk and no action.

So here's your chance to prove me wrong. Add something to the FAQ (http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=FAQs%2C_Problems_and_Solutions). If you don't have the answers yourself, do a search to find a post with a good answer and simply link to that post. Or even just edit my answers if you can improve on them. I'd just like to see some of these complainers do SOMETHING to help themselves instead of relying on those who do all the helping already. And don't say you don't know how to edit a Wiki... I had never done it before last night either. I just did a little research and reading before starting.

And for those same people, who have probably read but ignored my .sig, a few days ago I created a custom search engine at Google for ITT, with some refinement terms. Try it. (http://www.google.com/cse?cx=005981223421171304650%3Awt9tjwf2kd4) It works quite well... better than the ITT one in some ways (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=103363#post103363). It may help you find the answer you need in order to create your first FAQ item.

[ericdkirk]

I will promise to work on the wiki, I have never worked on one but it can't be that hard. I don't have the free time to be a leader though.

[sungrove]

[QUOTE=technut;104894]I created [

So before you all went on and on in this thread about needing a FAQ in the Wiki, there was already a thread about it and the FAQ was already started. (Which you would have known if you had done a basic search before posting about how badly a FAQ needed.)

For all the talk about how a Wiki FAQ is the answer, only Red actually looked at the Wiki and perhaps gave a thought to starting it. And THAT is the reason these things usually fail... lots of talk and no action.


Technut, what the heck is your problem? You are really a bleep, aren't you? Do you just have to be right? We are simply tryig to solve a problem here and you just have to wade in and start being critical. Yah, thanks for taking the constructive steps. But there you go again being the search police! I'd like to know who elected you. If you'd simply be more positive about the solution to this problem, it would probably go a lot further to solving it.
Yes we will use what you started, but according to you it will fail right?

NS

[icerabbit]

...
I stayed up waaaay past my bedtime to create ...
So before you all went on and on in this thread about needing a FAQ in the Wiki, there was already a thread about it and the FAQ was already started. (Which you would have known if you had done a basic search before posting about how badly a FAQ needed.)
For all the talk about how a Wiki FAQ is the answer, only Red actually looked at the Wiki and perhaps gave a thought to starting it. And THAT is the reason these things usually fail... lots of talk and no action.
...


I can't believe you typed that.

[ericdkirk]

I don't know if it is just me but I have to put a "www" in front of internettablettalk.com in order for the wiki to accept me as logged in and then there is no CSS to the page. Is this just a me problem?

[Karel Jansens]

Well, as a very close neighbour to the Kingdom of Belgium, one needs to be especially mindful of whatever happens over there these days, neh ? :)

I always hoped I'd get out before the civil war started. Not so sure anymore...

Still, being witness to the birth of the Republic of Flanders would compensate.

Oh, it's not for me, it's for my friend Pitr, he has this little world domination side project :
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20060929&mode=classic
(and following)

That's so cool! Userfriendly is on my Bloglines hotlist.

[icerabbit]

" Republic of Flanders " ?!

I guess as a Fleming ( and Belgian ) abroad, I should check into the Belgian news more often.

[fpp]

I always hoped I'd get out before the civil war started. Not so sure anymore...
Still, being witness to the birth of the Republic of Flanders would compensate.

...which in turn should be coincident with the annexion of Wallony by our Napoleon IV. And there be much rejoicing...


That's so cool! Userfriendly is on my Bloglines hotlist.

I believe I haven't missed a cartoon since the very first one just over ten years ago :-)

[fpp]

I go by my word. I can contribute typing, proof reading and, some organizing and computer bandwidth for a FAQ. I do not think I am at the caliber of editing/providing technical questions.
bun

Are you so sure ? For example, maybe you have reflashed your tablet at least once to upgrade the system ? If so, would you say that providing an entry-level step-by-step on how to flash a tablet (under Windows of course) would be above your ability ? A few links to the relevant Nokia/Maemo pages ; some copy/paste of existing docs ; a couple of warnings about common pitfalls, taken from the several threads on this topic we have here.

Doesn't sound like much ? Yet time and again we get the total newbie plea, "What is flashing ? How do I do it ?"... like today. If you guys are to be consistent in your stance, then "read your tablet documentation" or "do a search" or "go buy a PocketPC" are not valid answers : there should be a page in the FAQ, and that could be more value added than it seems.

C'mon : "I'm not worthy" is just that -- an excuse :-)

[technut]

Technut, what the heck is your problem? You are really a bleep, aren't you?You don't like my attitude, I get it. I don't particularly care for yours either, based on the way you started this thread. You complained about a situation but offered nothing as an alternative. And when an alternative was presented that you liked, you took no action to make it happen.

My attitude comes from the frustration I have with people who don't help themselves and rely on (in fact, expect) others to do the work for them.

I've been involved in other forums about other devices before, and I know that it is always the case that only a very few people do most of the research and work. Guess I'm a bit burnt out, and I had a late night with very little sleep. So you get an apology for any attitude in the last post... but prove me wrong by doing something and not just complaining.

[jmancine]

The irony is that no one is going to search for this thread. ;)

Expecting newbies to know all the protocols and customs of a forum is unreasonable. I suggest patience, CONSTRUCTIVE guidance, and for some -- dropping the cranky attitude.

[technut]

I don't know if it is just me but I have to put a "www" in front of internettablettalk.com in order for the wiki to accept me as logged in and then there is no CSS to the page. Is this just a me problem?I hadn't noticed that exactly, but I seem to get logged out every time a save a Wiki edit, and then have to start at the main page again. I'll have to check the resulting URL next time after a save, to see if the "www" is a factor.

[Karel Jansens]

" Republic of Flanders " ?!

I guess as a Fleming ( and Belgian ) abroad, I should check into the Belgian news more often.

I don't think you're going to find much about it in the Belgian newsmedia, which these days closely resemble the Sovjet "media" from the seventies. Go for blogs and non-print media (In Flanders Fields (http://inflandersfields.eu/) and The Brussels Journal (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/), e.g.).

[geneven]

I have searched for a current, relevant faq. When there is one, it should be referred to frequently so people like me will remember that it exists. For those of you who say 'there's a faq now,' I ask : 'then why haven't you been referring to it in the helpful posts you have been making?'

Recently, there was a post from someone in Argentina looking for a stylus. I don't think it's fair to send someone off to search for stylus messages and trying alternate tricky ways to get them from the.European Nokia site or whatever -- Nokia shouldn't make it so difficult.

All faq answers should be dated. My big problem with finding info on the net is reading undated, outdated information.

Oh, and that is a reason, sometimes, for asking a question for the zillionth time online -- the answer may have changed.

For example, let's say someone has a repository problem (hemmoroids?) and bogs down editing all their repositories, following old messages and doesn't know about the convenient new site? They throw out their N810 because it's too hard to use, but at least they haven't irritated the 'search s'. All that trouble because they didn't post, because they were intimidated out of it.

And I have many times refrained from posting because of fear, so have accepted a crappy situation just to keep the 'search s' happy.

A pretty long message for typing on the N800!

[sungrove]

You don't like my attitude, I get it. I don't particularly care for yours either, based on the way you started this thread. You complained about a situation but offered nothing as an alternative. And when an alternative was presented that you liked, you took no action to make it happen.

My attitude comes from the frustration I have with people who don't help themselves and rely on (in fact, expect) others to do the work for them.

I've been involved in other forums about other devices before, and I know that it is always the case that only a very few people do most of the research and work. Guess I'm a bit burnt out, and I had a late night with very little sleep. So you get an apology for any attitude in the last post... but prove me wrong by doing something and not just complaining.


Technut,

really, I love you man. If you had done a proper search , you would have realized that early in this thread I already appologized for the way I started it. You seem to have taken it personally by applying it to yourself. Can I do anything about that? As for doing something instead of just complaining, where do I start? Where have you been with a solution until now? So we start talking about this subject and right off the bat we ( maybe just I) get an attitude from you. If you had just left your post with your notice about your WIKI FAQ initiative at that and moved on I would have been fine with you. Other than that, I do thank you for the appology you offered. We'll see. Hopefully we can get along. I love your passion. One thing I do wonder about is why folks feel so compelled to respond if they have had it with answering the question again. Need I point out that there are ( OK, Do I have to search this detail?) let's say many other members of this forum. If you are burned out, that fine. I give you credit for working hard at this. Maybe someone else can take a turn for a while. Bottom line I think is that some people, as they have mentioned here, just end up feeling intimidated by the whole thing . I don't think you want that ,do you?

Peace bro
NS

PS- and I too reserve the right to work at this as little or as much as I feel like it. Nuff said on that.

[bunanson]

Are you so sure ? For example, maybe you have reflashed your tablet at least once to upgrade the system ? If so, would you say that providing an entry-level step-by-step on how to flash a tablet (under Windows of course) would be above your ability ? A few links to the relevant Nokia/Maemo pages ; some copy/paste of existing docs ; a couple of warnings about common pitfalls, taken from the several threads on this topic we have here.

Doesn't sound like much ? Yet time and again we get the total newbie plea, "What is flashing ? How do I do it ?"... like today. If you guys are to be consistent in your stance, then "read your tablet documentation" or "do a search" or "go buy a PocketPC" are not valid answers : there should be a page in the FAQ, and that could be more value added than it seems.

C'mon : "I'm not worthy" is just that -- an excuse :-)

Well, thanks for your encouragment. I have some doubt about myself, do a google search "step by step bunanson" in this forum only, came back 50. There are 50 step by step either written/used/associated with bunanson, not bad:D

Plus your leading question, "how many time I have reflashed my tablet" --> more than 10 times. I guess all I have to do is to paste all these step - by - step I wrote and cook up some refreshing instruction for 770 and N800, and browse a little bit about the tablet tutorial school, that should be good enough for a starting of FAQ. I will try take care it this weekend.

I would encourage anybody that has posted some "down to earth simple instructions" about anything, just search against your own id, then, review, cut and paste, and, add a title, if you feel comfortable, email to me at bunanson(no spam)@hotmail dot com. You have to take out the (no spam) and make a email address from there. I will "try" to cook a FAQ before 2008. I strongly strongly encourage other more suitable candidate to jump in, end of the year I travel out of town every other days, ............., you got the pictures. I maybe able to kick out something preliminary by this weekend. Again, NOTHING is GUARRANTEED!


Please try this format:

FAQ device_OS_title
content

eg
FAQ N800_2007_BT transfer
content

Anything without the above title line will be filtered to trash!
I offer to help, I voluntee to do it, but again, if it turns out overwhelming, I would just quit or transfer to somebody else. BTW, I did click on the forum FAQ when I first frequent this forum. Anybody try that:eek:?

Oh another problem, I have no idea and no intention to house a FAQ, somebody got to help me on this or pick up from here. I only offer to put it together. I still wondering what am I getting myself into **************s. Or somebody please post "bun, we do not need a FAQ, just do a WiKi or somethin.............."




bun

[dont]

Technut:

(This is not criticism).

See: http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

Yesterday you created and populated a new section in the wiki called:

FAQs, Problems and Solutions

immediately below it is an existing section called:

How-to's, Tips, and Tricks

which seems to serve the same purpose, but does not contain the magic word 'FAQ'.

I think that these two section should be merged, perhaps under a new heading:

FAQs: How-to's, Tips, and Tricks

If you agree, then I am prepared to have stab at merging the items in the wiki. Or you can do it yourself if you want as I won't be able to do anything until Friday.

If you do not agree, then I will leave your section alone as it is your baby.

[dont]

Or somebody please post "bun, we do not need a FAQ, just do a WiKi or somethin.............."
bun

bun:

We already have a FAQ in the wiki (two actually - see my last post) and we don't need another. We just need to populate it with stuff - which is what Technut was doing.

[sungrove]

bun:

We already have a FAQ in the wiki (two actually - see my last post) and we don't need another. We just need to populate it with stuff - which is what Technut was doing.

Ya, Dont.

I agree. The WIKI and the FAQ sections are all there and ready to be used. Funny, I wonder how things would go if the site opened there first. Users obviously would be much more aware of it. But yah. The key is getting people to use it. Refer to it first to look for help. Any additions to it will help I'm sure. I'll do what I can to both look for solutions there and write things down if I have the time.

NS

[technut]

Yesterday you created and populated a new section in the wiki called:
FAQs, Problems and Solutions
immediately below it is an existing section called:
How-to's, Tips, and Tricks
which seems to serve the same purpose, but does not contain the magic word 'FAQ'.
I think that these two section should be merged



I understand your point and considered exactly that when I was adding to the Wiki last night.

My final thought was that the two sections served two different purposes:When I looked at adding information to the Wiki tonight, I saw the need for a different kind of article group.

I have created a new section for "FAQs, Problems and Solutions":
http://internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=FAQs%2C_Problems_and_Solutions

Please use this section to add current and common issues and provide either the solution or a link to a thread or post with information.

Note: this is in addition to the existing Wiki section for "How-to's, Tips, and Tricks", which are more like mini-tutorials. Please pick the section that best suits your information.



So as I said, I see the "How-to's, Tips and Tricks" being tutorials about how to accomplish a particular thing (like the How-to I added to the Wiki last night (http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Internet:_Reducing_web_data_traffi c)).

I think if you have something that is more of a tutorial or will be of value beyond the next 6 months (eg. reference material), it should probably be in the "How-to's". If it also happens to currently be a hot topic then there could be a link to the tutorial from the FAQ, but just for as long as it is a hot topic / current issue.

The "FAQs/Problems/Solutions" should be current frequently asked questions and bug issues/workarounds, not stuff from last year. And not necessarily well written articles... they could even be just a link to a forum thread discussing the current status. It would give information about the hot topics of the moment, but most would likely become invalid or old news within 6 months or so.

For example, I would hope that Skype will work on OS2008 by then, and that browser crashes after upgrading to OS2008 would not be a hot topic anymore.

When a topic becomes cold or a solution is no longer needed, I would thin out the FAQ so that it remained pertinent to the issues of the day, not old news.

At least that's *my* take on it. Does that make any more sense now?

Is there a middle ground that would let us combine them both in one place? Keep the tutorials as good reference material, but still make the hot topics jump out at a newbie so that he doesn't have to plow through dozens of 3-year-old tutorials to find them?

[bunanson]

bun:

We already have a FAQ in the wiki (two actually - see my last post) and we don't need another. We just need to populate it with stuff - which is what Technut was doing.

Thank God, I just proposing............I almost wet my pants :o
I am off the hook now. BTW, I just made another step to step for Skype installation on 770 following Bundyo's hack, http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12740, yup, 770 is now skyping........... he he. So my step to step record is now, yup, 51+, maybe someday when I really grow up, i will be at the rank of Fanoush or Milhouse, (now singing, buddy Holy, that'll be the day)

EDIT: I am putting into Dont's FAQ, not the other one :D My butt still dripping from those wips...........

bun

[geneven]

Unless someone knows where a good guide is, I can write a faq about how to install programs in 2008. The very most common question I see is "I can't install any programs" etc. It's also one of the easiest. I don't think people are born knowing what repositories are...

[technut]

Unless someone knows where a good guide is, I can write a faq about how to install programs in 2008. Good idea, a How-to would be great. I put a very short FAQ about dealing with missing file dependencies here:
Application X won't install because it is missing some files. (http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=FAQs%2C_Problems_and_Solutions#App lication_X_won.27t_install_because_it_is_missing_s ome_files)
but I didn't even touch on what a repository is, or the other aspects of installing.

[nrune]

Thanks technut for dong some work on the wiki. While I don't have my n800 yet, is it christmas yet, I really thought that it needed some work. I found myself doing multiple searches and reading a lot of threads in order to find answers to what I was looking for.

[Greyghost]

Thanks fpp for your insight and encouragement.


...don't fret that you're not "senior" enough, or not technical enough : those are actually qualities in this matter, so dive !


Indeed, you are quite right! Your thoughtful comments have made me re-consider what qualifications are 'necessary' to be able to contribute to the wiki. After thinking about this and *really* reading through the current content, I realize that I may be able to make some useful additions to the collection:)


As for b)...you'll almost always get more "peer review" than you bargained for :-)


Ok. I get it....or will:D


Are you out of your mind or something ? :)


Oh yes, Mr. Bond. Yes indeed...

[sly but definitely maniacal smile accompanies steely blue-eyed stare]


edit: and about that multi-terawatt laser on the Moon, I have another idea for it... :-)

Perhaps, my good man, perhaps....