Why the Nokia N810 isn't on Time's Top 10 Gadgets of the Year

[RogerS]

The iPhone is Time magazine's number one entry in its Top 10 Gadgets list (http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/top10/article/0,30583,1686204_1686305_1690738,00.html) (50 Top 10 lists of 2007 too).

Me, I prefer the Nokia Internet Tablet, but the iPhone is an understandable first choice.*

Neither the Nokia N810 (almost, sorta, but not really released) and the N800 (a big surprise way back in January! (http://www.internettablettalk.com/2007/01/26/my-review-of-the-nokia-n800-when-the-walkaround-web-meets-the-see-me-anywhere-call/)) merited a place on the list.

I've said it before (http://www.internettablettalk.com/2007/06/08/cam-calls-the-killer-app/): With Skype cam calls, the internet tablet is a mind-blowing culture-changing device. (It would easily supplant the cordless Skype phone that's number three on this list.) Think about it: walkaround visuals on a voip call. Not tethered to a computer, not paying exorbitant fees, not having to type a la IM, incredible display not a tiny phone screen, not restricted to just what the vendor will let you do. Like I said, mind-blowing.

Until then, it's all potential, no paradigm-shift.

Knock, knock! eBay, Nokia, anybody there? What's holding you up? Light the fuse, please.
__________
* This is what's known in the writing business as understatement, a first-cousin of irony. I don't think anyone stood in line for hours (http://www.macworld.com/news/2007/06/29/iphone_crowds/index.php) to be first to buy gadgets two through ten.Read the full article. (http://www.internettablettalk.com/2007/12/13/why-the-nokia-n810-isnt-on-times-top-10-gadgets-of-the-year/)

[sachin007]

only the iphone and the sony camcorder are worth on the list. The rest is crap. And what was that samsung? Never heard of that. Is that an n800 killer?

[Red]

And what was that samsung? Never heard of that. Is that an n800 killer?

Well, given this quote:

(You'll have to download what's called a firmware upgrade from the Samsung website, but don't worry, it's not as difficult as it sounds.)

I suspect it is aimed at a slightly less technically savvy demographic. ;)

[lad]

You better believe that back in some hidden Cupertino bunker they are polishing up a Video iPhone with flawless, idiot-proof connection, multi-conferencing, and stuff we haven't imagined yet. And bet it will be out by (if not before) next Xmas.

Meanwhile, Nokia, (THE name in cell phone communications) cripples IT bluetooth headset functions, and tacks on a pinhole camera with zilch support.

So much potential ignored...I swear, it's like the ole Amiga days all over again...

[pseudomin]

Wow... that was quite a shocking top 10 list. I agree with having the iphone as number one and do agree that possibly two of the other items should be there but seriously. It just concerned itself with gadgets that were evolutionary as opposed to revolutionary like the n8x0s were. This just leads me to believe it was a cookie-cutter style article listing one creative gadget and nine other gadgets lumped in by order of which maker paid most. Its an attempt to make the other nine look good by association, and just in time for the holiday season too!

...alright, i've reached my quota of hating for the day.

[GeneralAntilles]

Meanwhile, Nokia, (THE name in cell phone communications) cripples IT bluetooth headset functions, and tacks on a pinhole camera with zilch support.

You really want to talk about crippled functions in comparing the NITs to the iPhone? Are you sure about that?

[timsamoff]

Ha ha! But the N800 was on the cover of Time!

http://sense-datum.org/tim/archive/2007/12/05/humor_while_bedridden/tim_samoff__weblog (http://sense-datum.org/tim/archive/2007/12/05/humor_while_bedridden/tim_samoff__weblog
)

;)

Tim

[iball]

Of course, Time had to photoshop the buttons on the iPhone on the cover since it is a closed device.
They wouldn't have had to do that with an N810.
Of course, anyone who reads Time expecting to get reliable up-to-date tech info is ******ed.

[t3h]

only the iphone and the sony camcorder are worth on the list. The rest is crap. And what was that samsung? Never heard of that. Is that an n800 killer?

+1 on that.

I reckon the Nokia Internet tablets would do quite a bit better if they were marketed with the strength Apple puts behind them though.

I can't say how the usability compares as my N800 is still on the way though, but that may be a factor. I can say that one of the reasons why the iPod is so popular is it is very simple and straight forward - the average person likes that.

[earl00]

who cares? you guys keep your slow internet browsing IT's while they keep their slim blazing fast iphones, who needs skype and voip when you actually have a phone to make calls without an internet connection. iphones are for those people that have a offline social life and don't need to ssh/vnc into their home/office every second they're away from the desk. As for mapping software - by the time you get a lock with the n810 you could have just ask someone for directions. There is life out there, well I guess the closet thing to a social life for most of you is facebook or myspace or WOW - i guess in that case stick to the IT's or wait for flash in the next iphone update.

[Jerome]

In the end, it's a problem of making business. Apple has a great concept: look for what people might want to do with a cell phone, and market that. Let's see:
-people want to phone, check
-people want a camera for prints, check
-people want a pda, check
-people want e-mail, check
-people want it to work wherever they are, and not just near a wifi router, check
-people want a mp3 player, ipod-like, check.

On top of that, Apple offers a few things for which it is not clear (yet) whether people will use them or not:
-a mobile browser that works
-a video player that works, including the ability to get videos to play on it.

That last point is important: there are many small video players on the market (e.g. Archos), but none of them makes it simple to actually get videos to watch on them (except in China, as I found to my surprise when travelling there, and those devices are indeed much more popular in China). Apple understood with the iPod that a store was a necessity for broad acceptance of a mp3 player, and they did the same for a portable video player.

Apple also is the only company who understood how to get around the limitations of the Internet for mobile devices. All mobile Internet devices face the same problem: web sites are designed by *****s who assume that you are running windows on a 2GHz pentium and a 1280x1024 screen (today, add 10% every year). All mobile browsers manufacturers face the same problem: squeezing those sites on a small, underpowered device is no fun, and you need regular upgrades of the software to keep up (flash 9 anyone?). Apple does it the other way around: partner with popular, content-rich sites so that they design their offer in a more sensible way (youtube is transfering all their videos from flash to h.264 for example). Notice the words: popular and content-rich, and not the joke that wap was.

True: all this comes at a price. So what? Who wants to make business with customers who are not prepared to pay a dime anyway?


Let's compare this business model with the one of other mobile browsers, the N800 but also other failed attempts like the Sharp Zaurus. First, they aim at an unproved market (mobile Internet), second, they don't do what people want. Those devices are supposed to be used concurrently with a cell phone, and be in your poket. So for this "Internet device", which doubles as a portable "thing", replacing whatever you may have had in your other pocket beforehand, what do people want? Let's see:
-people want it to work wherever they are, and not just near a wifi router, failed
-people want e-mail, failed for the most part
-people want it to replace their pda, failed
-people want a mp3 player, only so-so for lack of software
-people may want a video player, failed.

On top of that, those devices offer:
-a phone option, for which the main argument is that it is free or very cheap (voip, skype), but has the obvious limitation that you need to be near a wifi router: failed, you still need a cell phone.

So in the end, all mobile browser manufacturers faced the same problem:
-they have high software maintenance costs (to keep up with the Internet and web sites designed by *****s)
-their main selling point, mobile browsing, is not that popular (it's actually a small market as mobile operators who bought the UMTS licenses found out)


On top of this, the Nokia second selling point, free phone calls, is a business problem in itself: it's certainly far easier to make money with customers who bought your device for convenience at a price than with customers who bought it with the idea of saving 50$ on their phone bills.


So, in the end, it is a question of business model. Apple has found a great way to have their customers pay the device price and 10-20$ a month back to them. With this, they can finance future development. Nokia sells the N800 close to cost (200$ today), and has yet to find a way to finance future developments. Sure, they have linux enthousiasts who work for free, but that's not enough to make a device survive, as the Zaurus has shown. Sure, they can try to get the customer to register for rapsody (a service that is basically bankrupt and only exists in the US) or to pay for GPS maps, but that won't be sufficient, I'm afraid.


In the meantime, as N800 customers, we are riding on the proverbial free lunch, while iPhone customers have to pay every month but what does the proverb say about free lunches?

[anidel]

I think you (Jerome) fail in one important point:

- the iPhone is a phone, thus needs to substitute the one you have in your pocket. And it does. (Even if worse in many cases)

- the Tablet is not a phone, thus it needs to couple with a cellphone, not substitute it. And it does.

The iPhone is targeted at a specific target (a well known one). Easy life.

The Tablet is targeted at a specific target too (but one that is just growing: web people). Hard life.

Who get a tablet, usually expects a PDA (for many: touchscreen equals to PDA) but it's her, let's say, fault. She did not really know what the Tablet is.
And here comes Nokia's fault. People DO NOT know what the Tablet is.

But you're right in many of your points. Particularly the last one about the monthly subscription...but don't forget that Nokia's going to sell Maps and bringing people to the next mobile world (OVI and the alike)... They are big and they can dare anticipating stuff... may be they'll be able to forge it somehow... that's (I think) they bet on the Tablet.

[skinny]

...iphones are for those people that have a offline social life...

LoL

If I buy an iPhone, can I join your cool offline social group? I've had it with these geeky losers and their "I know what, let's not believe everything we're told by the media" attitude!

[Jerome]

I think you (Jerome) fail in one important point:

- the iPhone is a phone, thus needs to substitute the one you have in your pocket. And it does. (Even if worse in many cases)

- the Tablet is not a phone, thus it needs to couple with a cellphone, not substitute it. And it does.

I know perfectly well that the iPhone is a phone and the N800 isn't. That's because of this difference that I am saying that the N800 business model is a problem.


The iPhone is targeted at a specific target (a well known one). Easy life.

The Tablet is targeted at a specific target too (but one that is just growing: web people). Hard life.

No, it's not an easy life. For example, Nokia sells phone internet devices and has been for years. They have the "communicator" series, they have phones like the N80i which can browse the web. None of those has been a stellar success. Compare with the following:

In its first full quarter of sales, the iPhone has already climbed past Microsoft’s entire lineup of Windows Mobile smartphones in North America, according to figures compiled by Canalys and published by Symbian. That puts the iPhone ahead of smartphones running Symbian, Linux, and the Palm OS, but behind the first place RIM BlackBerry. The figures mesh with retail sales data already reported by NPD, which similarly described the size of the US market with a 27% chunk bit out by Apple’s iPhone.

So, in just three months of sales, the iPhone managed to pass all but one competitors, all of whom have been on the market for years. That, and they chose an expensive business model which also force many customers to change their service providers. Frankly, calling that less than a stellar success is a fraud.

Bear with me here. I am not saying that they deserve their success (or not, please save me iPhone bashing, I don't have one), I am just stating the facts: they are incredibly successful. Obviously they sell a product that the customers want. And obviously they make a lot of money with it. Conclusion: good business.

Now, compare that with the N800. And compare that with the Nokia "communicator" series. And compare it with palm or pocket PC devices. Find out why Apple succeeded to make a lot of money where the competition does not.

The answer is quite simple: they sell what people are prepare to pay good money for. And that is a central problem with all devices similar to the N800:
-they aim for a small market
-their customers are penny pinchers (*)

That's an unsolvable problem. A firm can aim for a small market, if it brings corresponding high profits (e.g. the communicators series or the blackberry, aimed at businesses). A firm can make good living selling cheap devices if they sell millions of them (e.g. cheap Nokia phones, they are still number one cell phone maker). The two together does not work.


(*) Yes, they are penny pinchers. And so am I, too. I remember very well that all people I knew bought the Zaurus (including myself) loved the idea of linux programs being "free" software, in the monetary sense, while palm, WinCE or phone applets cost 20$ a piece in average. The Zaurus line is dead. Now, one of the main selling point of the N800 is that skype and gizmo have no roaming charges...

[YoDude]

How many ads for a Nokia have you ever seen in a Time publication?

[anidel]

The answer is quite simple: they sell what people are prepare to pay good money for. And that is a central problem with all devices similar to the N800:
-they aim for a small market
-their customers are penny pinchers (*)

I think we are saying the same thing in different words and with a slight difference in point of view.
When you say "n800 aimed at a small market" is what I've said for "Nokia is pointing to Web2.0, a small but growing, hopefully, market".
When I said "easy life" for the iPhone I wanted to pointed out that Apple already knew what people want, as cellphone are here since years now... so it was easy to look at what was available, what people wanted and give it to them..

For the rest I agree with you.

[anidel]

How many ads for a Nokia have you ever seen in a Time publication?

Well usually, at least here in Italy, I almost never see Nokia's own ads.
Usually the phone providers put advertisements of Nokia's (and other companies') phones to advertise also their own plans (often you see plans bound to particular phones).

[Jerome]

When I said "easy life" for the iPhone I wanted to pointed out that Apple already knew what people want, as cellphone are here since years now... so it was easy to look at what was available, what people wanted and give it to them..

If it was so easy, why didn't anyone do it before? It's not like internet-enabled phones are a new thing, they have been on the market for at least 5 years... for example from Nokia (the communicator series).

There was a catch, of course. Nokia has the problem that their phone business model is such that their primary customers are the network operators, not the end customers. So they built phones to please the network operators (who get revenues from sms, downloaded ringtones and games, etc...). You know the result.

Palm and MS (pocket PC) are simply incompetent. That happens. On top of it, MS main motive is to tie you to Windows.

Blackberry went for a successful business model, and chose premium customers. Fair enough.

Something like the iPhone could only come from a new player (no ties with the networks) with good marketing clout.


Now, about the N800 (and the Zaurus, etc...). Those little machines seem to me more an exercise for the development team than anything really marketable. I can't believe Nokia's executive to be so incompetent to believe that the N800 (or the N810 or the N900) will bring big money. But sometimes, a firm like Nokia needs to test new waters: the portable game console market (N-gage anyone), the camcorder phone, the luxury, designed-for-fashion-conscious-women phone, etc... The N800 looks like one of those exercises to me.

[arsa]

Personally, i don't believe skype video will be there. Gizmo already has it, but skype... not sure. Minimal hardware requirements for skype ppc say 300Mhz, which is what nokia has too. And that's only audio. I guess gizmo uses simpler voice and video codecs than Skype, so they can work on that type of CPU. I haven't tried it yet though, not sure how fluid that stuff is.

[lad]

In some ways, it's certainly a toss up considering the N810's SRP and the price of an unlocked iPhone. Apple's philosophy has always been make it simple, seamless and innovative for the average consumer. The PC and hacker crowd instead wants more open hardware and modification abilities. It's like a yin/yang, left/right brain thing. Apples do what they do very well, but they're not for everyone.

ITs are excellent, handheld browsers. I just think if Nokia said, right from the start, that they're also going to make and sell the N8xx (with their camera and Voip abilities) as a turnkey video call system, they'd be on the cover of Time instead.

Before they released the series, they could have approached Skype, Gizmo or Google just like Apple approached AT&T and Youtube. They could have presented this vision and put something together that would benefit everyone. Just a few well placed TV ads showing generic American families making handheld video calls (for "FREE", over their home WiFi ) and the shelves would clear rapidly by Xmas. Heck, they could have tied the devices in a with major ISP like a Tivo ("Get a free portable wifi browser & videophone with a 2 year contract").

Instead, if they're thinking about that at all, they may have shifted such developments to their cell phone research and newer signal protocols.

[timsamoff]

Earl... I must admit that you're being pretty harsh here. I like iPhones and my N800 and I have a social life (outside of the computer)... Why are you being so hostile?

-T.

[earl00]

Earl... I must admit that you're being pretty harsh here. I like iPhones and my N800 and I have a social life (outside of the computer)... Why are you being so hostile?

-T.

Sorry, but I feel that alot of IT users are little to richous. Look at the title. Come on, no matter how much you fight it, you have to come to terms that the iphone is a great product for what it does, i'm sick of people ranting on how they hate and how bad the iphone is. The iphone is no.1 not because of the masses and your being to smart to be apart of the masses, but it actually is a good functioning phone - I don't even like apple in general. The IT from my experience ( and I like Nokia's N95) so nothing against Nokia, but the IT failed in through eyes as an overpriced slow, open sourced, if you know how to cross-compille device - and I like Nokia's smartphones. But to start something new and for it to be successful, you need a new idea, this is just a slow underpowered pda with a nice screen and open source. Nothing special here. So get over it. Put a open source OS on something thats 3 years old like the Dell Axim X51v with a slightly bigger screen, and you have a IT killer - And thats old technology with nothing revolutionary or evolutionary.

[sachin007]

For 200$. Can you please explain how the it is pricey??

[RogerS]

Look at the title. Come on, no matter how much you fight it, you have to come to terms that the iphone is a great product for what it does, i'm sick of people ranting on how they hate and how bad the iphone is. The iphone is no.1 not because of the masses and your being to smart to be apart of the masses, ...In the immortal words of Goofy, "Gaaarrrsh, Mickey!"

Since I was noting that the iPhone succeeded where both Internet Tablets failed for both marketing and capability reasons, I'm not sure this qualifies as an anti-iPhone rant.

At any rate, I'm usually interested only in what Nokia did right and what it can do better with the NITs. I've looked high and I've looked low and I haven't seen anyone else offering a WiFi-enabled 800-pixel-wide 8-ounce pocketsize tablet for $200.

If only that webcam could be used with Skype, I think a lot of people would be interested in one of these . . .

[timsamoff]

...but the IT failed in through eyes as an overpriced slow, open sourced, if you know how to cross-compille device...

Weird. I've held my N800 up against the iPhone many times and each of them win the speed test depending on what I'm trying to do... But, as far as web browsing is concerned, my N800 beats the iPhone almost every time (and, not just when considering speed, but also when looking at page rendering).

Pricey? Well, sachin007 already addressed that, but... The $200-$500 price tag for an internet tablet is where the price...ends. There is no service activation or extra charge for the "phone" part (e.g., the iPhone) because there is no phone... And, that's what a lot of users (myself included) want/need. The iPhone after purchase and cell activation is roughly $400 (for the device) and $720/year (for unlimited internet). Pricey?

Cross-compilation? I guess you've lost me here... Are you speaking of porting apps for use on the Internet Tablet? Sorry, I just need some clarification. Because you sort of have to know how to do that for the iPhone too.

-T.

[earl00]

Pricey? Well, sachin007 already addressed that, but... The $200-$500 price tag for an internet tablet is where the price...ends. There is no service activation or extra charge for the "phone" part (e.g., the iPhone) because there is no phone... And, that's what a lot of users (myself included) want/need. The iPhone after purchase and cell activation is roughly $400 (for the device) and $720/year (for unlimited internet). Pricey?


http://dealnews.com/Refurbished-Apple-i-Phone-4-GB-for-299-shipped/202599.html

No contract. And you can unlocked it in your bedroom. And prices will come down even lower, just like the n800 once $499 down to $199. So no exta service charge as you mentioned if you know how to shop. And so you can still use without the phone part, plus I'm sure you have a cell phone anyway, so you could pop that sim into the iphone anyway.

[sherifnix]

For 200$. Can you please explain how the it is pricey??

You can't walk into a store and buy an IT for $200. They are still $399 and $479. Its unfortunate :( (At least in the United States).

If I had to choose between the IT and an iPhone when I was shopping for a family member or a good friend. I couldn't in my right mind gift an N800. I'd be asked for a gift receipt to return it within 24 hours.

Its a toy for technically savvy people. Its nothing beyond that (unless something drastic happens to the platform).

I am interested in Internet Tablets because I'm a gadget freak. Nobody asks me how much and where I can get an IT. They just say, "Oh man, I can't wait to get myself an iPhone".

It has poor app support, codec support and performance issues.

Edit:

Sure it has divx, but if its full rez it drops frames, has tearing and kills the battery.

Sure it has apps like ScummVM but it can't even go full screen.

Sure it has a mozilla browser and flash support, but it loads so slowly.

Sure it has email, but it barely functions with IMAP servers (and gmail).

Sure it has music playback, but it only works with drag and drop directories.

Sure it has Skype, but it doesn't support the BUILT IN front-facing camera (Lol).

Sure its got a nice screen, but it has terrible tearing and no hardware acceleration.

Tell me one thing it does very well? Nothing :( It gets by on the web, thats about it.

Sure it can remote into a server via the terminal, but what the hell does the whole world need that for?

I'm not down on it, I just can't understand how anyone thinks its better than an iPhone. Its really quite obvious if you look at it objectively.

Music and Video - iPhone
Email - iPhone
You Tube - iPhone
Mapping - iPhone (debatable if you can actually figure out Maemo Mapper)
Photo Viewing - iPhone
Web Browser - N800... only because of flash support. Navigation and rendering is superior on the iPhone.

If you load a 1024 wide page on the N800, you're scrolling horizontally since the reformatting screws most CSS heavy sites.

The iPhone presents the page in its entirety and you tap what you want to read.

Unfortunately, it is hard to compare the navigation objectively since its mostly a preference thing. But I've found that its more widely accepted, having shared both devices with friends and college students alike.

One is mass market, and one is nerd market. (I'm happy to be a part of the nerd one, I just know a better product when I see one)

[akd]

Maybe because most people think like this...

magnoforte
Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7
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Re: File Transfer PC to N800

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks fnordianslip for cheer me up..but I am a very busy man, don't have too much time to spend with linux.
Also I am a Windows man, I like the Windows "new hardware found...GE Refrigerator...your refrigerator is ready to cold your six pack" stuff. I want to live relaxed, computers are not my work, not my hobby. I am thinking in sell my N800, I bought it because a coworker, but I am founding it is not for me. I can't listen my favorites radio streams (Windows Media based), too much video conversion, can't use MS Office, etc etc.
I was looking for other kind of experience.
Thanks again
MF

[timsamoff]

I'm not down on it, I just can't understand how anyone thinks its better than an iPhone. Its really quite obvious if you look at it objectively.

I'm not sure if anyone said that the N800 was better than the iPhone (I know I didn't)... They are comparable, but you are certainly right about who they are intended for.

And, of course, TIME Magazine is going to opt for the device that is more consumer-friendly.

-T.

[Benson]

It's not that Apple can do what others can't.
It's that Apple does what others don't.

The iPhone is upper-middle hardware, the way I score things. The only particularly impressive hardware feature is the multi-touch screen. But Apple designed that hardware to have exactly the features it would use -- no FM radios left without apps at launch, etc. They built software for that hardware, keeping the whole experience in mind, that would do what it does really, really slick. The downside, of course, is that they had to choose a very limited batch of functionality to make that functionality come out right. They exiled 3rd-party apps to the realm of hacks, so no one could ruin their slick interface. They put it in a box, and will gladly sell you one. If you are content with its feature set, you'll love it. It does what it does so doggone well!

Apple makes slick experiences.

Any other company could have done that -- the hardware's nothing especially special. The multi-touch screen was leading-edge, but anyone could have gotten those, if they were designing such a device. However, no other company did. Most tech-makers concentrate more on features and price, and way less on the finished experience.
Is the iPhone a better device than the N800/N810? Depends how you define better. I'd put the N810 ahead of the iPhone from a hardware perspective. The N800 is arguable, but clearly better in hardware/cost. They both also come out ahead in a feature-list smackdown. But neither of them will do what they do, or even an iPhone-sized subset of what they do, as downright slick as the iPhone does its limited repertoire of tricks.

Give me an N8x0 any day; I want to do everything. And I'll ignore the little bumps along the way, knowing I'd have no such bumps with an iPhone. And don't tell me the iPhone is better, and I won't tell you the tablet is better. Feel free to say it's slicker, more polished, easier to use. And I'll say mine can do more, has higher res, and is more of a laptop. We'll each think we're saying ours is better, but we'll each agree with (and not care about) the other's praises for his device. And the world will be a happy, shiny, agreeing-with-each-other place.

[Benson]

Or, alternatively, LET THE FLAME WARS BEGIN! :)

[RogerS]

I think we should also pay attention to the difference with which Apple approached its new technology.

The multi-touch screen was brought to Steve Jobs as a computer interface, but it he re-oriented the project to be an interface for a phone instead.
The contrast with existing phones is greater than it would be with tablets.
There's a bigger market.
Lack of third-party apps would be a much bigger flaw in a computer.And in taking this approach, Apple was perceived as extending its expertise in getting the user experience right where everybody else gets it wrong (see every iPod-vs-other-MP3-players review).

Not: "30 percent better experience" but "a world apart from the alternatives."

No one thinks Apple's phone, music player or computers are the best hardware at a good price. Heck they're not even considered as being at a fair price. With all of them, you're paying for something other than the hardware (and, no, I'm not talking about marketing).

The Internet Tablets, on the other hand, have consistently delivered the best hardware at the lowest price in a package not matched by any other maker. Different approach to value.

[technut]

A MASSIVE BLOCK OF TEXTschin007, it would be sooo much more readable if you used paragraph breaks and white space / blank lines once in awhile.

Sorry, I just couldn't bring my self to read it as is.

[sachin007]

schin007, it would be sooo much more readable if you used paragraph breaks and white space / blank lines once in awhile.

Sorry, I just couldn't bring my self to read it as is.

Yeah i understand. I did that initially. But the forum accepts only posts below 100000 characters and mine went to 1000233. SO had to reduce the spaces in between in fear that i will somehow lose the text.
I will copy and paste it into two different posts.

[sachin007]

" You can't walk into a store and buy an IT for $200. They are still $399 and $479."

Come on be practical. You can get one for 250$( add another 50$ for 8 gig card) anywhere with overnight shipping. That is in comparison to Iphone which comes to 430$ with taxes.

" If I had to choose between the IT and an iPhone when I was shopping for a family member or a good friend. I couldn't in my rightmind gift an N800. I'd be asked for a gift receipt to return it within 24 hours."

Yeah you are right. It is hard for the newbie to adjust to the internettablets. But i feel they should be given a choice. Yeah everyone knows that apple makes good stuff which are easy to use. But there " are other options. Just because Microsoft has been thrown down our throats since childhood we can use it very easily. If i was given a mac i would find it extremely frustrating at first but if some one helped me initially i would definitely understand how it works and will start liking it later on. The point here is that everything is a little tough for the first time. yeah admittedly linux is lot more tougher than osX. But as the preaching goes "Give a man a fish and he will eat that day. But teach him how to fish he will eat all his life."
It is the same here. If you take the time and explain for may be one day your family member will have the knowledge on what the n800 is and what it can do. Then he can decide on his own. Options are always good.

" Sure it has divx.."

Come on be practical. You are good enough to understand that playing divx on a tablet takes significant horse power. Playing divx itself is a wonderful thing. Name any mobile device which can play divx. But atleast it can play an industry standard format. I hate the apple because it plays only a proprietery format. nothing else. Imagine downloading an avi/divx/flv file from the internet. what do you do? Go back home and convert it?? That is not being mobile. Mobile means when i download a file i should be able to see it immediatley not go home and convert it again. If that is the case i can as well go home and download it directly on my pc!! Yeah it cant play high resoulution divx videos. But if you really understand that it takes a lot of processing power to run those high resoultion videos then you should be able to live with what it can do. And talking about battery. WIth a wonderful widescreen and brilliant resolution you cant expect it to run forever. But you can always buy an accesory battery and run it for 4-5 hours more. Can you do that with an apple product. I mean iam serious... why do they cripple you like that??

" Sure it has apps like ScummVM but it can't even go full screen."

Personally i never used scummvm. But from what i see. The n800 has a 4.13 screen to apple's 3.5 screen . Even without full screen the viewing area should be more than the iphone. And there are hard ware buttons which logically should be a lot more better for gaming than touch screen buttons whithout haptic feedback.

"Sure it has a mozilla browser and flash support, but it loads so slowly"

Are you sure?? Because almost all tests i have seen seem to state that the n800 performs equally/better than the iphone. And of course if you disable flash they should be significantly faster than when it is enabled. Of course i would not do it. Flash is an integral part of the web 2.0 and the option of having it is really a breakthrough!! I dont see how it is a negative. Infact it shows that the n800 is far more advanced then the itouch.

[sachin007]

CONTD...................................

"Sure it has email, but it barely functions with IMAP servers (and gmail)"
yeah i agree the inbuilt email sucks. But there are 3rd party which are also not that good. However i dont have any idea of the mail on iphone. But nokia will improve for sure.


" Sure it has music playback, but it only works with drag and drop directories."

So what is wrong with drag and drop? I mean seriously it is way better than the itunes. If you want to share a music folder with your friend just take out the memory card and that is all. No need to go back to your home and connect to the computer! I find it very convenient. I dont need any cables to carry everywhere. Almost all the laptops come with card readers and i just put my card and copy them on to my memory card. I will take memory card any time in comparison to itunes software. Please tell me what is the disadvantage of drag and drop??


" Sure it has Skype, but it doesn't support the BUILT IN front-facing camera"

YOu should understand that skype for linux supported video recently so it will take a little time. but video is supported by gizmo. Just look at the convenince of video calling anywhere. And then there are gtalk and skype for really cheap calling. Can iphone do any of these?? For that matter it cant even record just video and the most unbeleiveanle thing is that it can t copy and paste. How bad is that if your friend sends you a link?? or you need to post alink for reference?? good luck with that!! Having such a great support for voip is really nice> There again this is the first device which has such extensive support in a mobile device and that too with video.


"Sure its got a nice screen, but it has terrible tearing and no hardware acceleration."


The screen is the best in comparison to any mobile device. Iphone's screen is no where near. I realized that you have to zoom evertime for every page. And the most irritating thing i found was iputting text in a field after zooming. come on you just tap the box and enter stuff. I tried to do this on an apple itouch and it was very very irritating.


" Tell me one thing it does very well? Nothing It gets by on the web, thats about
it."

The iphone can do only onething well kinetic scrolling. Then there is the eyecandy which looks good. Web browsing is not great as you need to keep on tapping and zooming.
Another thing is the built in stand. What a convenience it is!! Where as you should always handle the iphone with your hands. Not always convenient.


" Music and Video - iPhone"

Can you say what the iphone can do better than the n800. Consider the 3rd party music players like kaju(A2dp) and ukmp and media center(with mplayer) and the upcoming canola.
One major major thing is the lack of internet radio and fm radio. I guess that comes under music. Seriously did you ever use internet radio. It is the best use fo the internet tablet. It is like having a hundred gigs at your disposal. i listen to internet radio which is free and then if i like a song i just download it. INternet radio itself beats the iphone. I use it to to stream radio via my phone using bluetooth.
If you never used it you please do. Then you may realise how big a deal it is. One good site is shoutcast.com. And can you explain why apple doesnt include fm radio in any of their devices?? Let me explain this they just want people to buy more and more songs from the itunes. I mean even the tiniest devices made by even lg or samsung or any other companies has an inbuilt fm tuner. It is so convenient to listen to fm stations. The internet tablets are good for music. And coming to videos. The iphone can play just the basic formats nothing more than that. I can just put an 800mb file dvd rip on my n800 and it plays easily. Can you do that??
And then there is the torrent client called transmission. I just start a torrent and download the album direct to my n800. that is really great. Sure that is not legal. But that is how 99% of us on the internet are. Can you do that?


"Email - iPhone" THe n800 has a bad email client. I will agree if the iphone,s email client is good enough and it should be.


"You Tube - iPhone" - Strongly disagree.


Most of the videos i see are never converted to the mobile website. WIth os 2008 youtube is really really good. Then there are the built in speakers. Generally when we show of you tube videos i use the speakers to listen to the sound. That is the best part- stereo speakers. And i reallly hate it when it has to be again re-encoded to another format just for another device. Give me a break. I will definitely take the original youtube website any day in comparision to the re-encoded ones. Just imagine another company making another device and youtube encoding for that again. Come on if you can make your device to work with the web version .... good. If not just get out there and improve your product dont start changing the standard just for that. A good example is all those video formats over there. In the long run it is the customers which lose because of these formats. Nokia never tries to put a format down the customers throat. WIth nokia there is always a choice. That i feel is morally and ethicallly right.


"Mapping - iPhone (debatable if you can actually figure out Maemo Mapper)"


Are you kidding me?? With 50$ you can connect to an actual gps module. There again that is choice. Compared to none with the iphone. The n800 has a myraid of options here with maemo mapper, nokia maps, wayfinder if you want real gps. Here again you have choice.


Photo Viewing - iPhone"

- Here again the n800's screen is far better and with the
help of the upcoming canola and other apps like the media center it is definitely comparable with the n800. of course it doesnt have a 2 mega pixel camera. Yeah it definietly needs a good camere.

Web Browser- Saying that the iphone"s web browser is better than the n800's is a joke. Nuff said.


Yeah i agree that at this point the general consensus is that iphone is easy to use. But i believe in choice. I have educated my friends by telling them what the n800 can do for its price and about 7 of my friends have brought the n800. They are total noobs. They found it a little irritating at first but after some days they can never leave it alone> The most important thing is choice. DOnt always think that
the iphone is the best option. Present the choices and explain and let them chooose. This is what i want to achieve from my post.

[Hedgecore]

There's one thing Nokia Tablet users can do that iPhone users can't.

Shut the #*$&*# up.

(QED.)

[slim]

I think it would be more constructive to look at the things that work well on the iStuff and use those to improve the tablet.

The tablet has a lot of advantages over iStuff. I won't repeat those here, because it's more constructive to think about the areas that could use improvement. There are some things I think the tablet community could learn from the iStuff:

Out-of-box matters
This is mostly Nokia's problem. The tablet's weak OOB performance hurts Nokia financially, and only Nokia can fix it. This only hurts existing owners if weak sales cause Nokia to abandon Maemo.

The next four deal with HCI, an area in which Apple excels:

A handheld device is not a small desktop device
Apple does not try to force a desktop paradigm onto a handheld device. They thought about how people use these devices from the ground up, and designed an interface that works well for that use. Right now it's really impressive, but in 5 years someone (maybe Apple, maybe someone here, maybe someone else) will have thought up something even better.

Screen real estate matters
This is closely related to the first one. Every application is full-screen. There are no scroll bars. These are things that are so obvious in retrospect that it's hard to go back to the old way of doing things.

Intuition matters
Drag-scrolling and kinetic-scrolling work because they make intuitive sense. So does tapping a big calculator picture and seeing a calculator. So does an arrow that points left causing the view to pan to the left. No one likes frustration.

Form factor matters.
The n810 is a big step in the right direction. People like things that are light, easily pocketable, and made up of mostly screen. And looking good is always good for sales.

Defending the past can be dull and tedious. It's a lot more fun to envision the future, and try to realize that vision.

It's OK to learn from the competition. Apples sure does. Why do you think they're opening up the iStuff to 3rd party developers?

I think the iTablet project is a great example of this. It started out by replicating iStuff functionality. But it's evolving to surpass it.

[Benson]

Out-of-box matters
A handheld device is not a small desktop device
Screen real estate matters
Intuition matters
Form factor matters.

Agreed on all points, really, though less so on intuition.
Regarding A handheld device is not a small desktop device, which overlaps Screen real estate matters anyway, I think the Hildon idea of no overlapping windows is really a good one. And I think full-screen apps should be default. But that said, I think the ability to have some non-app stuff on-screen is really good. I feel that a lot of space is wasted on the N800 in non-full-screen mode. It should take off just the left side, or just the top, but not all 4 sides, as it does now.
Let me add:
Orientation should work
If desktops can do it, why can't my N800, where it's so much easier to rotate between portrait and landscape? Yet it's left to apps to support, so very few do support it. And, in the N900, a sensor for it would sure be nice.
We need multi-touch
Not sure what to do with multi-touch per se, aside from finger-painting software. But it enables resting your hand on the screen and still using a stylus, enabling you to write on the left half of the screen.

But we should also learn from the iStuff disadvantages:
Hardware buttons are good
But they could stand to be a lot better than their current state.

[sachin007]

what apple should do.....

make it more open.
Dont charge exorbitant prices for the respective hardware.
Add additional features like fm radio, internet radio, user replcable battery, and good bluettooth connectivity with a2dp.
And i personally hate jobs releasing a product and saying that so and so is the most advanced technology.


All these are far more important to me than the os.,which at the most will take me a couple of days to master.

[timsamoff]

I think it would be more constructive to look at the things that work well on the iStuff and use those to improve the tablet.

slim, thanks for the great (and thoughtful) post. Very constructive.

-T.

[Greyghost]

I think the iTablet project is a great example of this. It started out by replicating iStuff functionality. But it's evolving to surpass it.

Great post, thanks.

I could not agree more, with this point in particular, but the rest was well said. The civility of tone and simple, constructive criticisms in your post are emblematic of two of the most salient features of the ITT forum.

[Hedgecore]

I think looking at Apple for design queues is like being on a massive acid trip... you need to cut through what you actually see, and what you think you see. Because we've got the marketing propaganda hammered into our heads, people (John Q. Public, not us geeks here) tend to take anything they do and raise it above their head in triumph like they just discovered fire or the wheel.

So. The real estate usage in the Hildon UI sucks. I'd rather have a persistent icon that I can click and have the top/left bars extend from it (eyecandy animated, or just appear) over top of the currently running application. There's no need to have that information or those controls consistently available, especially when in another application.

Orientation is a must. C'mon, the spatial sensors in the wiimote are dead cheap and tiny... It'd be cool to enable spatially related orientation and have the tablet automagically switch to portrait mode.

The chassis... I'll admit the 770 looks like a bad prop from Dr. Who (the OLD one), the N800/N810 are an improvement but not much better. The brushed metal from the N810 is a good start but what about several options like laquer black or white? The buttons on the 770 are atrocious, I feel like I've got stereo equipment from the 70's whenever I'm using them. For the love of crap, a d-pad that is even mildly suitable for playing games would be a godsend. I'd prefer the 'spongy' feel of a real keyboard, or even the feel of a laptop keyboard (scissor joint (I realize this isn't feasible for a tablet, just talking about the feel)) compared to the brittle feeling micro switches they've got now. Whatever happened to those rubber covered buttons that helped keep moisture out but felt oh-so-neat on your fingers like (gah) Sony walkmans used to have?