[RESTARTED] Internet Tablet Talk Software Section

[Reggie]

We have been developing the Internet Tablet Software Section for a few days now and today, we are formally announcing it so Developers can start uploading their apps...

Article deleted.

[GeneralAntilles]

I hate to say it, but this really just sounds like a good way to fragment the community and duplicate a lot of effort. We've already got enough fragmentation with the repository mess, what's wrong with Garage and Downloads? Wouldn't it have been better to put together some sort of syndication? :\

All in all, this seems like a poorly made and hastily considered decision that's really not going to help anybody in the end.

[andrewfblack]

There is alot of good software that doesn't have a Garage page and even more never put on maemo downloads section. This if used by people would put all the software in a easy to find place. Infact almost half the games on this site that have been ported don't have garage pages.

[yerga]

But,

1) you don't need a garage page for write an entry in maemo.org/downloads.
2) the software doesn't need to be in a repository, neither have a install file.
3) you don't need to be the developer for write an entry in maemo.org/downloads.

It would be cool if people write an entry in maemo.org/downloads for each dispersed software, though the own developer doesn't do it. If it's beta, tag the software as beta.

Please developers, all maemo software in one place.

[Reggie]

All in all, this seems like a poorly made and hastily considered decision that's really not going to help anybody in the end.

I disagree GA.

We've all seen how Canola has improved because of the involvement of the end-users. We want to encourage the same type of life cycle. Maemo.org's Download section tend to just list apps and Maemo.org members (who are top tech junkies) tend to just rate the app, and that's it.

We also want to promote the developers' apps here at itT too, plus more. What's wrong with that?

I hope you just don't shoot down an idea mainly because you haven't seen it working.

[Reggie]

Please developers, all maemo software in one place.

I agree with this. All Maemo apps should be in the garage. Maemo.org's and itT's software and download section should just list them.

[anidel]

I am not so sure about this move and the implication it can have in fragmenting software repositories.

It would be nice to see it NOT as a yet another software database, but as an aggregator for user comments/feedbacks.
For example my port (Xournal) has a page in the Downloads section, I could add a garage project (I will) to take advantage of the bugzilla section, but there is no place (in Maemo.org) where users can chat about Xournal.

Thus I am willing to add my software, but I will just link to the maemo.org's Download page.

This way I have everything I need: the software in one place (Maemo Extras and garage), a garage project (bugzilla, ...) AND a community forum to discuss the software itself (here).
I would encourage all the developers to do like this and I would like to push them all to upload their software to Maemo Extras.

Anything that would prevent that ?

[anidel]

By the way, I tried to add Xournal, but (after joining the Developers group and filled the Add form) I got : 'anidel, you do not have permission to access this page.'

[andrewfblack]

That is what reggie was going for Anidel you don't have to upload your file here you can just link it. Unless you need somewhere to host your files then you can upload them here. Either way if its listed in our database our users can find them easy and discuss them.

[anidel]

Got it.
We'll see how it goes.

[GeneralAntilles]

I disagree GA.


As well you might, considering it was your idea to implement this. ;)


We've all seen how Canola has improved because of the involvement of the end-users. We want to encourage the same type of life cycle. Maemo.org's Download section tend to just list apps and Maemo.org members (who are top tech junkies) tend to just rate the app, and that's it.


I don't disagree that Downloads isn't a particularly good place for active discussion, but creating what's basically another completely separate Downloads/Garage system just succeeds in causing a lot of problems for developers and end-users alike. Rather than working towards a one-stop-shop for everything, we've instead doubled the workload and halved the participation in each.

I'd also disagree with "top tech junkies" assessment of Downloads, a large number of people on there are nothing of the sort. Where does the official Nokia OS2008 page link (the one that's linked to from the desktop of every new tablet shipped)?


We also want to promote the developers' apps here at itT too, plus more. What's wrong with that?


FRAGMENTATION. We've got enough of it already, we don't need more. Look at the Zaurus community for why it's a bad thing. It's more of the repository mess at a different level. Promoting applications isn't bad, but creating two completely separate places for users and developers to go to is.


I hope you just don't shoot down an idea mainly because you haven't seen it working.

I'm shooting down the idea because it's a poorly considered one that was brought about with zero community discussion and no collaboration with maemo.org.

What should've happened (and should still happen, if nobody's too set on this particular idea) is somebody should've discussed this with the guys over at maemo.org (X-Fade in particular) and set up a syndication system so that the power of both Downloads/Garage and itT could be utilized to their fullest extent. Downloads and Garage for hosting, development and a centralized location for applications, and itT for discussion and lots of fun end-user interaction.

Hopefully you'll consider rectifying this.

[yerga]

About have threads for discussing software, reporting bugs, etc, IMHO is a good idea.

The problem I see is people adding software to ITT but not to maemo.org/downloads.
Maemo.org/downloads would be useless because people would go always to ITT to search software.

It would be cool and very useful a way for sync ITT Downloads and maemo.org/downloads. If people add software in ITT send it to maemo.org and if people add software in maemo.org have a thread where discussing this software in ITT.
I think maemo.org/downloads have an API or soon will have(I am not sure, probably X-Fade could comment this).

[andrewfblack]

GA you said Reggie wasn't working on a one-stop-shop I feel he is because you can discuss your software here and end users can find it by just going to the download section. Even the stuff not lised on maemo.org or garage. To me it seems more like a one-stop-shop.

[anidel]

I understand what's GA worrying about, and I do worry about it too.
Developers will upload to Maemo, others to Garage, others to their own repo, other here.
This is fragmentation.
As said, the best for ITT would be what's it already is: a forum -> discussion.
As such I would remove the "upload" section and 'only' provide what's missing: a link between the application's place and the forum.

But that's what 'I' would do :)

[GeneralAntilles]

GA you said Reggie wasn't working on a one-stop-shop I feel he is because you can discuss your software here and end users can find it by just going to the download section. Even the stuff not lised on maemo.org or garage. To me it seems more like a one-stop-shop.

You didn't understand my point. Maemo.org is (or should be, depending on perspective) the one-stop-shop. Not some random web forum. :) Trying to pull stuff away from there hurts everybody.

[joepagiii]

well whay cant itt have say a pre meamo.org release type thing....a place to iron out the wrinkles then after a time put it on meamo with good documentation for the newer types

[andrewfblack]

But he isn't pulling anything away from there all you have to do is upload you software there and then if you want you can post it here by either uploading it again or linking to your maemo.org download, or garage download or your personal site download.

[anidel]

well whay cant itt have say a pre meamo.org release type thing....a place to iron out the wrinkles then after a time put it on meamo with good documentation for the newer types

That's more what Garage on maemo is for.

[joepagiii]

thus the term garage...i get that....im tryin to add other good reasons in reggies favor...but i do see the reason ga is worried about fragmentation....however ya ever hear of too many eggs one basket i know some of ya guys are thinking this guys an idjitt...but try not to look at the fragmentation issue to hard...everything fragments ...no matter what or how well put together it is

[benny1967]

Mhm... I'm not happy with this. I don't think it's right to have even more fragmentation and, yes, as GA said, maemo.org ist the place to go for downloads. we need a one stop shop, and it must be there, not here (for more reasons than i want to write down now).

OTOH, this is the web. everybody can try out new ideas. who knows? it could still be a success and a benefit for the community.

[andrewfblack]

I would agree about not taking downloads from maemo.org if it had every download there was for the tablets, but it doesn't so it isn't a one stop shop and never will be because you can't make people upload to maemo.org who don't want to. Second you can't discuss the software there even if you go to the garage check out the forums there no one uses them. So you come here for discussion why not also have the downloads here and at maemo.org which is what reggie is doing. If you want software for your Linux, Mac, or Windows computer do you go to just one site. No there are thousands you go to.

[Reggie]

Here's the thing, Maemo.org has always been a resource for developers and I would bet that it was created and would grow as basically what it is -- a resource for developers. It has been so much a developer site that Nokia decided to create the Tableteer site which aimed to cater to end-users.

The itTSS really aims to complement Maemo.org and enhance Tableteer. itT's strength and focus is the end-user community. The itTSS' strength is to help the whole IT community -- both the developers and end-users.

Regarding "fragmentation", at times you have to denormalize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denormalization). This is one of those times. But then again, who am I to say this, as I am only the guy who runs a "random web forum."

[benny1967]

... it isn't a one stop shop and never will be because you can't make people upload to maemo.org who don't want to.

neither can you make ppl list applications here if they dont want to. so even though (if we're lucky) many applications will be at both places, some of the cool stuff will be at maemo.org only, while some will be only here. That's what "fragmentation" means.

Having the possibility to diskuss apps is nice, but thats whats happening anyway and should have been possible by only adding some new forum sections without the download stuff.

But then again, there's two ways to think about it:

The Right Thing (tm) certainly is to try and work towards a pleasant one stop shop for the end user. This probably means to enhance and re-use existing channels, or, even better, further reduce the number of websites and repositories (instead of adding new ones).

The other approach is to try as many ways as possible (the new service at ITT being one of them) and see which one will work in the long run. There'll be "me too!"-attempts to generate traffic, and there's a risk of fragmentation to a point where nobody finds anything because it's scattered among 182 places, but there's also a chance of something brilliant evolving.

I'm very conservative in these things, so my way of thinking is #1: Do "The Right Thing". At least I know approach #2 is possible, too. I'll see what happens.

[GeneralAntilles]

Here's the thing, Maemo.org has always been a resource for developers and I would bet that it was created and would grow as basically what it is -- a resource for developers. It has been so much a developer site that Nokia decided to create the Tableteer site which aimed to cater to end-users.


While this may have been true in the past (I'm not sure that it, in fact, was—look at the old application wiki page), Nokia is definitely moving away from this moving forward with maemo.org becoming a much more community-oriented (not just developer) and organized centralized location for everything maemo.

Besides, Downloads and Planet are hardly developer-centric.


The itTSS really aims to complement Maemo.org and enhance Tableteer. itT's strength and focus is the end-user community. The itTSS' strength is to help the whole IT community -- both the developers and end-users.


Then you should complement it, not duplicate it! Why wasn't this idea discussed with the community? or with maemo.org? Instead of having a discussion and arriving at something that really helps everybody, we have no discussion and end up with something that, I fear, will end up doing enough harm to offset whatever good it manages. . . .


Regarding "fragmentation", at times you have to denormalize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denormalization). This is one time.


Communities are not databases.

[andrewfblack]

I don't see this as fragmenting anything since well like I said in the other post there is no one stop shop for everything and there will never be. This section will just try and make itT a place for people to discuss there problems, and help people get the software they disguessed

[Reggie]

@GA: Let's see how Nokia reacts to this then. So far I'm getting positive feedback.

I suggest you relax.

Btw, Freeciv (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=8)look great! It has 37 downloads already.

[GeneralAntilles]

@GA: Let's see how Nokia reacts to this then. So far I'm getting positive feedback.


I'm not concerned with the Nokia reaction, I'm concerned with the effect on the community. :)


I suggest you relax.


I'm plenty relaxed, thanks. :)

[Reggie]

I'm concerned with the effect on the community. :)
Me too!

I'm plenty relaxed, thanks. :)
Cool! :D

[terrencegf]

Here's my two cents...

Until recently, I was strictly an end-user of software. Then I chimed in on a discussion on crossword puzzles and ended up becoming a developer on xword (http://xword.garage.maemo.org/). If I had been forced to set up the garage project myself, I probably wouldn't have since I'm lazy. As it is, I like the svn repository, but never utilize any of the bug/tracker facilities at the garage.

I had no real idea where to announce xword, so I initially just uploaded a .deb to the original forum discussion post. When the program was less buggy, I placed an [Announce] post in the Software area and monitored it for bug reports. As it stands, I still don't know what is the "best" procedure for announcing a software release.

I am worried about the fragmentation issue, but what I REALLY want is some clear documentation on the procedure for creating/distributing/announcing software. Can we come to a consensus on that? Even if we do have several correct "paths" (e.g. garage, maemo.org/downloads, forum, etc.), I want to be able to reference a document and point others to it as well.

[andrewfblack]

Well when you upload software to the download section here now it makes a new thread for you about your software. That is one place you can do it.

[Benson]

Well, while I'm more in the GA camp here, first let me point out a practical issue that needs resolution:
I went to the Xournal 0.4.2.1 thread (just exploring the new section and how it works), and when I get through to the big download button, the install file is served with type text/html. Opera, naturally, wants to save it as xournal.htm; this is not so good...

Then, second, to jump into the flamewar: ;)
I think fragmentation is bad. I haven't tried downloading, but I think this lets people easily use this as a single host for their releases. If you required the project to be already uploaded somewhere, but would mirror it from there (we've all seen sites go down permanently or temporarily), then it would encourage developers to use garage, or to self-host (as many already do). It would be a bit of a hassle, but I'm sure anyone who couldn't self-host, and wouldn't do garage, could find some sort of temporary hosting to get the file up, so you wouldn't really lock out people, you'd just make correct habits easier than incorrect ones.

And, lastly:
I am worried about the fragmentation issue, but what I REALLY want is some clear documentation on the procedure for creating/distributing/announcing software. Can we come to a consensus on that? Even if we do have several correct "paths" (e.g. garage, maemo.org/downloads, forum, etc.), I want to be able to reference a document and point others to it as well.
On this, I think the best procedure, assuming you're a single primary developer, not a team, is to:
Write some code, get it to a decent state where other devs can reasonably play with it.
Get a garage page and put it in SVN.
(optional) Post in the Devs forum here about the project, if you're interested in having help.
Work on it till it's alpha quality, and release alpha debs in garage.
Post debs in the itT Download section.
Work till it's beta quality (and release).
Get it in maemo.org extras-devel repo
Post .install on itT Download
Make a maemo.org downloads entry
Finally, production releases are posted around as before, but in maemo.org extras repo.
That's my understanding of how it ought to work; but I'm no pro. And yes, it's a lot of work, and I can't really blame anyone for shying away and skipping steps. But that's what you should do, I think...

If everyone discusses this and comes to a consensus, it can be wikified here. I'll be shocked. ;)

[Reggie]

Get it in maemo.org extras-devel repo
Post .install on itT Download
Make a maemo.org downloads entry

That's how I imagine it should work too. itTSS should act as an alternative on listing and helping end-users find apps that are still in beta but will eventually be in the garage as they are improved.

Thanks!

[rcadden]

My sugggestion as more of an end-user is that itTSS should only accept .install links. I see ITT as being the most consumer-friendly place in the IT community, and as the tablets move more into the 'consumer' realm, it should, as well.

This is probably nit-picky, and that's fine, but it's been expressed before that .deb files mess things up by removing the functions of the App Manager for providing and now alerting users to updates of their apps.

Clearly I'm not familiar with the work involved in creating an .install for a repo from a .deb, but I think the community in general needs to work on that quite a bit.

Am I out of scope here?

[gnuite]

The Garage is great, but it isn't for everyone. It's a bit like a Sourceforge, for project management among multiple developers, and developers should be allowed to use whichever project management mechanism they want, be it the Garage or whatever. If you don't have a project management mechanism, the Garage fits the bill. But, in the end, the Garage is for developers and power-users - it shouldn't be a website for general end-users.

The Maemo Downloads website, however, is targeted explicitly for end-users. When your Garage-hosted (or wherever-hosted) project to a end-user-consumable state, you should be advertising it on Maemo Downloads. The interface may not be great, and it may not be very fast all the time, but it is intended to be the one-stop shop for downloading end-user Maemo software. There is no reason to avoid advertising your end-user-ready Maemo software on Maemo Downloads, unless you hate Maemo.

Discussion forums are great, and perhaps Maemo Downloads could support a better forum mechanism, but I have to agree with GeneralAntilles about the fragmentation - creating yet another Maemo software website is just going to confuse people. Just because "not everyone puts their packages on Maemo Downloads" doesn't mean we should create yet another website - after all, not everyone is going to put their packages on ITT's website, either.

No disrespect intended (I love ITT), but as a developer, ITTSS makes my job more difficult, because if I want to reach the largest audience, I now have to remember to manage my releases on yet another website.

[gnuite]

That's how I imagine it should work too. itTSS should act as an alternative on listing and helping end-users find apps that are still in beta but will eventually be in the garage as they are improved.
If it's an "alternative" listing, then why isn't it just an aggregator/syndicator, as GeneralAntilles suggested?

[andrewfblack]

I just have a question for everyone if you have a Windows computer do you only go to Windows.com to download software or would you go to other sites to get it like download.com or rapidshare.com or a hundred others. Having downloads on several sites is the way of the world. (BTW if you don't use Windows imagine the same thing with Linux or Mac)

[andrewfblack]

If it's an "alternative" listing, then why isn't it just an aggregator/syndicator, as GeneralAntilles suggested?

Because if it was just an aggregator/syndicator it would have only what is one maemo.org not the other good software out there.

[gnuite]

I just have a question for everyone if you have a Windows computer do you only go to Windows.com to download software or would you go to other sites to get it like download.com or rapidshare.com or a hundred others. Having downloads on several sites is the way of the world. (BTW if you don't use Windows imagine the same thing with Linux or Mac)
That's not quite the same thing when it comes to Open Source Software. Most people don't go to download.com to download software. They search the web for it and they find the website of the company that created the software.

Open Source Software, on the other hand, is typically written by single developers (or small groups of loosely-connected developers), not by a company. They typically don't have the money to pay for and support a website to host their software. Instead, they rely on services like the Garage to host their open source software for them.

[gnuite]

Because if it was just an aggregator/syndicator it would have only what is one maemo.org not the other good software out there.
How is ITTSS going to solve that problem, though? If there is "good software out there" that is not being registered on Maemo Downloads, then why would it be registered on ITTSS? If it's an awareness thing (i.e. ITT is more popular than maemo.org), then developers just need to be more aware of Maemo Downloads. (If you're a Maemo developer, how are you not aware of maemo.org?)

[andrewfblack]

ok but there are more then one website for windows open source software same with linux

[gnuite]

Maybe that's why Windows OSS is so useless. ;-) No, seriously, though, the distribution of Windows OSS software across multiple websites can't possibly help grow the operating system. (Which works fine for Windows, since it doesn't need growth.)

As a Maemo user, I'd rather use 1 website to browse 500 applications than 50 websites to browse 10 applications each. And because the community is so small, it pays for us to stick together.

[Texrat]

It's ironic. Just recently we had a(nother) thread on community software QA that stirred up a lot of emotion here. Now here's something proposed that certainly began with good intentions but does indeed have the potential to create or exacerbate fragmentation.

Here's what I would have rather seen with the time, energy and resources devoted to this: a solution to the software QA problem. Some sort of synergy with maemo rather than overlap and possible competition.

It concerns me when a developer says he's too lazy to create a maemo project, because I have to wonder what else they're being lazy with-- QA, documentation, libraries, etc. If it becomes easier to "manage" a project using this new solution then the result will not only be fragmentation, but further erosion of quality. Rather than enable laziness, we should encourage at least some degree of discipline. I realize that last word seems to fly in the face of FOSS, but without discipline Linux would remain a cool hobbyist plaything, nothing more.

I really, really, REALLY wish the community developers would team more. The resources are there. The need is certainly there. I'm not sure what's kept it from happening like I've seen it happen in similar circumstances. What's lacking? An Internet Tablet Developer School?

Anyway, just my meager 2 cents on the subject. I won't argue much on this one because I know Reggie's heart is in the right place and the last thing I would want to do is rain on his parade.

[andrewfblack]

I agree with Tex if you like it or not Reggie worked hard on it so you shouldn't complain we wouldn't complain if someone added a feature to a program we didn't like because hey he is using him time to work on it for us.

[Texrat]

Well... actually I *did* complain a bit... ;)

[andrewfblack]

Yes but you still gave him credit for his hard work

[brecklundin]

Taking a break from the, errr, wienie roast...when looking at the downloads forum, how can I know at a glance what type of application I am looking at? As in word processing, spreadsheet, graphics, multi-media, PIM...whatever?

Right now I could see the organization getting like a rats nest over time.

BTW, I do not mind the idea of this section being here...in fact I like it. But I will stay out of the fray...obviously there is significant polarization and, well, I don't need more complications in my life...I have enough already. :D

[Texrat]

^ wienie :p

[Reggie]

how can I know at a glance what type of application I am looking at? As in word processing, spreadsheet, graphics, multi-media, PIM...whatever?

I've made changes to add the category in the thread. Thanks for suggesting it.

[GeneralAntilles]

I agree with Tex if you like it or not Reggie worked hard on it so you shouldn't complain we wouldn't complain if someone added a feature to a program we didn't like because hey he is using him time to work on it for us.

A program we don't like we can just choose not to use. Another downloads section isn't something we can ignore in the same manner. Not as a developer (if you want exposure in the most places possible) and not as a user (if you want to get software).

I'm not bashing Reggie for his clearly good intentions (something about "the road to hell . . ." does come to mind, though :p), I'm bashing this idea for the effect that its current implementation is likely to have on the community.

I don't consider the basic idea to be flawed—leveraging itT's strength (discussion) to help improve software, but there are major issues in its implementation. I say again, why wasn't collaboration (in the form of some sort of syndication) with maemo.org considered? This would rather perfectly solve all the issues here. Developers don't have to double their workload by maintaining their projects on both maemo.org and itTSS (because itTSS picks things up through syndication), and users don't have to search two separate places for their software, because both places will be in sync.

Reggie, I know your heart was in the right place, but I don't think you fully considered the repercussions here. Don't take this as an assault on your good intentions, but as an assault on their implementation. :)

On the bright side, this is really a fairly easy thing to fix. Talk to X-Fade and the other maemo.org people, get the syndication set up and integrate it—problem solved.

[andrewfblack]

The syndication thing would still not fix that some people don't post there software to maemo.org and I know some will not post it here either.
I think the best thing is for me to just agree to disagree with the people who don't like the download section here I can see us dragging this on for week. I don't see it as that much more work for developers. Since I have developed many programs for other things just not maemo yet haven't decided what to work on yet lol.

[GeneralAntilles]

The syndication thing would still not fix that some people don't post there software to maemo.org and I know some will not post it here either.
I think the best thing is for me to just agree to disagree with the people who don't like the download section here I can see us dragging this on for week. I don't see it as that much more work for developers. Since I have developed many programs for other things just not maemo yet haven't decided what to work on yet lol.

Honestly, I don't think you've been involved with the community long enough to understand the issues here. :)

[andrewfblack]

I understand what you are saying. I just don't think it will make that big of a difference people are used to having to get software from more then one site. So I don't see why it matters.

Just because I don't agree with what your saying doesn't mean I don't understand it

[GeneralAntilles]

Just because I don't agree with what your saying doesn't mean I don't understand it

No, but what you're saying indicates that you probably don't. ;)

[andrewfblack]

What part of why I"m saying indicates I don't know what I'm talking about

[Texrat]

The syndication thing would still not fix that some people don't post there software to maemo.org and I know some will not post it here either.

And here is where I put my hard(@$$) hat on.

The question is: why not?

Before anyone jumps to a response, I'm going to be a really hard sell on any rationalization against using maemo as designed. To be quite blunt, if someone resists using the proper resources that stubbornly, do I want to use their software? I realize that's very broad and there are likely good apps that aren't managed using maemo, but I'm not using them-- nor, likely, will I.

So again, the challenge is out there: why NOT use maemo? And I personally can't accept excuses like "I'm too lazy". In my opinion the only valid reasons against it would have to revolve around usability and technical issues.

[andrewfblack]

THe point should be some of the downloads already have 100+ download and some of this software was on maemo.org or atleast posted about on these forums. So the download section is helping Night

[gnuite]

Even if that were true, andrew, and people were only,downloading them because they are listed in ITTSS, syndication would have achieved the same end, and with no intervention on the developer's part. Advertisement is not a bad idea - fragmentation is.

[pipeline]

My take on this (obviously not the consensus) is that the maemo os development community is too transient to force into a traditional debian/ubuntu maintainer structure.

A large portion of Maemo software is pretty much homebrew and ports. Forcing Maemo.org actually damages the homebrew aspect of it... mostly since its a broken website (akamai + midguard cms apparently do not mix). Perhaps ITT software could better enable this homebrew aspect.

Additionally (and probably unpopularly) i think relying -solely- on repos hurts tablets. I think whenever possible, tablet developers should make some attempt to release a version which statically links any necessary libraries so that there is no dependency hell. This is done for desktop users with thumbdrives such as those here http://portableapps.com/

I vote that Reggie starts up his own repo, and provide a simple and logical means to publish to it, instead of the beaurocracy that is submitting to maemo extras. (Honestly do we really need a sign our packages for a tablet which ships with 256meg filesystem?) One reggie repo would be better than 10 or so independent repos, would it not? Of course that implies alot of potential bandwidth which may not be wanted.

[Reggie]

Great point pipeline. Other examples are KDE, Debian, etc. that I guess will not make it to Maemo.org.

[Aisu]

I would just like to see how this works out. Why don't we just give it a little time? Maybe the web devs at maemo will learn something from it. Either through itT's upcoming success or failure with software management.

Maybe it'll just be motivation to make everything more efficient and friendly at the real site for maemo. Thereby avoiding fragmentation. (Ok, kinda grasping at straws).

Because, to tell the truth, the developer side is fine at maemo.org (my opinion). But, the end-user side kinda sucks (my opinion). Ergo, we learn from this.

I think we should at least give it some time.

Thanks a lot, Reggie. This could pretty awesome :D

[Texrat]

My take on this (obviously not the consensus) is that the maemo os development community is too transient to force into a traditional debian/ubuntu maintainer structure.

I'll grant that. But it looks to me like the wrong reaction to that has taken place. Rather than analyze that and get down to root cause, we throw up our hands and say, "okay, the community is disorganized, so we need a disorganized solution to project management!"

I'm sorry, but I still take the other tack-- I see this as an educational challenge more than anything. I was half-joking with the suggestion of a developer school, but in all seriousness that's close to the solution zone I think we *should* be going toward.

The community is transient? Fine-- but instead of working around that, why not drill down a bit deeper and explore why that is-- and effect a REAL solution?

And, dammit-- why am I still arguing this? :eek: :p

[asqwasqw]

well, for some it will be easier to post it here, because the frequent the forums, it should be easy for some sync-ing of the new and maemo.org
and the ones whoe wouldn't anyways, probably have their own repo, and are adamant about it, so most things wouldnt change their mind anyways
but you could always have a itT user account and upload all the things loaded here, to maemo.com under a general itT account, though there are obviously problems with that, the point is, to me at least, is that this here is a good thing

[gnuite]

My take on this (obviously not the consensus) is that the maemo os development community is too transient to force into a traditional debian/ubuntu maintainer structure.

A large portion of Maemo software is pretty much homebrew and ports. Forcing Maemo.org actually damages the homebrew aspect of it... mostly since its a broken website (akamai + midguard cms apparently do not mix). Perhaps ITT software could better enable this homebrew aspect.
Okay, Midgard may suck, but that doesn't make it unapproachable to "homebrew". There is really very little "management" that you have to (or are even able to do) with Maemo Downloads. It is not a project management website like Maemo Garage is. You don't have to suffer much Midgard to get your software on the Maemo Downloads site, and it's certainly no excuse for a small-time developer to avoid it.

Additionally (and probably unpopularly) i think relying -solely- on repos hurts tablets. I think whenever possible, tablet developers should make some attempt to release a version which statically links any necessary libraries so that there is no dependency hell. This is done for desktop users with thumbdrives such as those here http://portableapps.com/
Okay - Maemo Downloads doesn't prevent this, and neither does the Garage.

I vote that Reggie starts up his own repo, and provide a simple and logical means to publish to it, instead of the beaurocracy that is submitting to maemo extras. (Honestly do we really need a sign our packages for a tablet which ships with 256meg filesystem?) One reggie repo would be better than 10 or so independent repos, would it not? Of course that implies alot of potential bandwidth which may not be wanted.
What "beaurocracy"? And Maemo Downloads doesn't require signing debs - are you thinking of the Garage? Remember, they are two completely separate systems. Maemo Downloads requires very little of its contributors besides having to put up with Midgard. Garage requires a bit more.

I can understand a developer not wanting to deal with Maemo Garage - there are better project management websites out there. But there is no excuse to avoid Maemo Downloads unless your software is not ready for primetime.

[Texrat]

Thanks for that last post, gnuite, and I can see that my posts should have also made those distinctions.

[Navi]

Why didn't Reggie bother to talk this out with the community and the Maemo devs to come up with the best solution? Instead of getting something useful out of it that helps everybody, we've got this nonsense.

GTFO, KTHXBAI

[gnuite]

Why didn't Reggie bother to talk this out with the community and the Maemo devs to come up with the best solution? Instead of getting something useful out of it that helps everybody, we've got this nonsense.

GTFO, KTHXBAI
Is there a "No thanks" button on these forums?

Actually, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, Navi, but in case you aren't: yours is a completely non-constructive attitude to take. Reggie was just trying to help. Some of the rest of us are just providing some constructive (I hope) criticism - that's how public-domain collaborations improve.

[Reggie]

Yes, I'm attacking both Reggie and his actions.


No need for that.

[Navi]

And of course, there's no reason to delete that specific post and only quote that part of it. There are plenty of other posts you can hunt down, give me infraction points for, and delete too, y'know.

Like I was saying in the post that was deleted, but less "personal attacky" than it already was (which wasn't very much, I might add),
Is there a "No thanks" button on these forums?

[...]yours is a completely non-constructive attitude to take. Reggie was just trying to help. Some of the rest of us are just providing some constructive (I hope) criticism[...]
If there was, I'd be in the negatives.

Unfortunately, a bulk of the positive criticisms are being ignored. What are we to do when we can only go absolutely nowhere? I'll gladly acknowledge the good intentions as soon as we have some real feedback on the feedback.

[GeneralAntilles]

Quim made a very pointed post (http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2008-May/017783.html) on maemo-developers that echoes my sentiments almost exactly:

Reggie, in my *personal* opinion you are pointing to the right direction with the wrong munition.
...
Anyway, the maemo.org and ITT communities can figure out the details but it is clear that nobody is interested in harming the neighbor project , stress the already busy developers and confuse the probably already disoriented end users.

[Reggie]

I guess there's nothing more to say. I hope something good comes out of this...

[GeneralAntilles]

I guess there's nothing more to say. I hope something good comes out of this...

Don't hope, make it happen. Nobody but you is empowered to do so. :)

[Bundyo]

Some other points not related to fragmentation:

* This approach requires that the user has red pill mode switched on, since big part of the software is relying on other libs or is in wrong category. That's not good at all.
* There should be a direct link to the file, since some use wget to get the file after it fails to other reasons.
* There should be a way to upload the modified source.

[qgil]

Wow, GA beated me at commenting here about that post. :)

Some hints to focus this discussion:

- This is about http://maemo.org/downloads being an original source for promoting software available or having multiple and eventually competing original sources like ITT software section in the way it is designed now. Why competing with maemo.org as original source. Why going for duplication instead of syndication.

- Creating a page for your app in maemo downloads (developed anywhere with packages hosted anywhere) takes what, 10 minutes? No signing whatever, it's a web form with a button to upload a screenshot. Update the info with a new release even less. Why a developer serious about his work wouldn't spend this extra time? Specially why not when doing this once the info would propagate top whoever wants to pick it up?

- This is not about Garage, take that word out of the discussion. You can manage your software anywhere. We don't want developers pointing users to Garage, period.

- This is not even about extras / extras-devel repositories since you can publish your software anywhere. Nokia will take more seriously the software available in extras as developers themselves take more seriously the fact of having the good and stable software available in extras. But this has nothing to do with this discussion.

I could comment more but it's either at http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2008-May/017783.html or in this thread. It's a bit of a pity that we didn't have this discussion before Reggie (with his best intentions, I have no doubt about this!) invested his time on this.

[qgil]

Now I see this [DISCONTINUED]. Hey Reggie, let's keep talking. Your idea is fundamentally good, very good. And there are ways to implement it that would make life easier/funnier for users and developers, while making ITT and maemo.org better.

There is you and the core ITT fans, there is the group of maemo developers serious about their work, and there is the maemo.org team, funded by Nokia but 100% community driven. Plus Nokia's support to make it happen, whatever is good for all of you. All the elements are in place for restarting the discussion and proceeding with good multilateral planning and execution.

[GeneralAntilles]

Now I see this [DISCONTINUED]. Hey Reggie, let's keep talking. Your idea is fundamentally good, very good. And there are ways to implement it that would make life easier/funnier for users and developers, while making ITT and maemo.org better.


Yes, quite.

I did mean to imply that the system should be shut down entirely, only that a greater integration with maemo.org and Downloads/Garage should be sought to avoid fragmentation and prevent duplication of effort.

Leveraging the power of itT to help drive good software development is a fantastic idea, but this particular implementation was lacking, if only in its fragmentary nature.

There's a dead easy way to fix this (well, the technical side might get a little involved, but it's fairly straightforward otherwise), and that's integrating with maemo.org through some sort of syndication. Don't duplicate the effort and resources that have already been put into project hosting and tracking with Downloads and Garage, utilize them! Drop the hosting/tracking part of the itTSS system, replace it with maemo.org's system and keep the discussions. You end up with effectively the same system, but without the extra effort on the part of developers to keep things in sync.

For example, a Garage project (that has enabled itTSS integration—this may be something that should be optional, but details can be pounded out later) releases a new version over on Garage itTSS picks up the release and creates a thread (complete with release notes, a .install and a link back to the project page). Then users on itT will see it, download it and report bugs, criticisms, and kudos. Easy peasy.

[anidel]

Just noticed the DISCOUNTINUED too and I want to throw in my 2c as well.
As you probably know I am the Xournal port maintainer/developer.
I did create a Maemo Downloads page because I know that is the place where the stable software should be and is the place that people (should) search when looking for software.
With my first port I did put up my own repository on my desktop machine in the lab.
I did that because I knew that my patches were hacks to make it work and because I did know if Xournal would have been appreciated by the users.
When I noticed people liked it, and gave me feedback, I started working harder on it and cleaned up the hacks to made them patches and to be in sync with the upstream version.

Anyway, in both cases I did create an ITT thread.
I did that because there was (and, IMHO, there is) no other place where I can listen for feedback.
Comments on the Maemo Downloads section are not enough (and probably even useless) and, as Quim stated, the Garage forums should be used by the developers rather than from the end users.
And, in fact, I am going to create a Garage project for Xournal, but I am going to make it not for the end users, but for me (to have a place where all the Xournal stuff is properly kept) and for whoever wants to help in developing for it.

To summarize, what I miss (as a developer) is a place where I can talk with my users.
The ITT forum is the best place for that, and we all agree with it.

What Quim stated is, as always, correct: the best solution, in my eyes, would be to automatically (if the developer wishes so) create threads in the ITT forums when a new version of the application is being uploaded to Maemo Downloads and have a link to it on the final page.

So that we have, in one page, the Xournal page on Maemo Downloads:

a) a description of the application
b) a way to .install it
c) a way to discuss it -> ITT thread

(just re-read what GA wrote, it's the very same have I wrote here.. :p, sorry for duplicating it)

[Reggie]

I would like to turn this discussion around and look at it from the perspective of the end-users. When I say end-users, I mean the majority -- consumers with zero to average knowledge of linux, packages, debs, repositories, and Maemo. Let's face it, much of what we have now are just too confusing for them. A lot of them won't install apps and a lot of them will not go as far to know what Maemo is.

I would have wanted a system to make it easy for them. I would have wanted a system that they can use and have them upload desktop backgrounds, themes, maybe submit their own NumptyPhysics levels. I want it to be fun for them by letting them be a part of the system -- able to upload, discuss, and talk directly to the developers.

Instead, what we have is a slow, hard to get to, developer-centric system with an identity crisis. What's more, it has no direct connection to Tableteer, and provides a messy link to Application Manager.

I created a system that I can control and integrate more. It was not much but I had the best intentions to help the end-users and ultimately love their tablets. It was shot down before it can even take off.

I don't think no one in Maemo.org (those who run it) shares my vision. Sure, they want to improve some things but up to what level? Is it up to the end-user level?

Syndication is easy but I think is the wrong solution. All it does is make the developers' life easier but does really nothing for the end-users.

[joepagiii]

we need to make this more of a mainstream device...which its not right now its seen as a well i dont know....i dont see joe 6 pack with, it heck i dont know if i really want it the gorram thing make me feel like i don't know what im doing...and when i ask how do i...well lets not go there...we need a better and easier area for newbies and novices to explore and learn there devices foibles

[Jaffa]

There's a difference between backgrounds and NumptyPhysics levels and application software. If you want to provide a hosting solution for the former, that's fine - it's as both an application developer and an end-user many of us object to the latter.

1) As an end-user I want to go to one place to look for software and see everything which is suitable for me (and that one place is the Application Manager, or - failing that - downloads.maemo.org)

2) As a developer, I want to announce releases of my product in one place, without having to copy & paste the same announcement to half a dozen different places.

I don't think no one in Maemo.org shares my vision. Sure, they want to improve some things but up to what level? Is it up to the end-user level?

I think that's disingenous. Sure, there are software developers who don't care about their users that much (buggy, half-Hildonised software, not put in extras(-devel) etc.), but there are others who do care about the end-user experience. Removing whatever perceived barriers are in-place to the former group requires co-ordination and discussion, though.

[Reggie]

There's a difference between backgrounds and NumptyPhysics levels and application software. If you want to provide a hosting solution for the former, that's fine - it's as both an application developer and an end-user many of us object to the latter.

That's the thing, look at it from the end-user's point of view. They are the same, and they should be in the same place.

I think that's disingenous.
I have to clarify that I'm when I say Maemo.org, it's the folks who run it, not the developers. I've edited my post.

[andrewfblack]

I would like to turn this discussion around and look at it from the perspective of the end-users. When I say end-users, I mean the majority -- consumers with zero to average knowledge of linux, packages, debs, repositories, and Maemo. Let's face it, much of what we have now are just too confusing for them. A lot of them won't install apps and a lot of them will not go as far to know what Maemo is.

I would have wanted a system to make it easy for them. I would have wanted a system that they can use and have them upload desktop backgrounds, themes, maybe submit their own NumptyPhysics levels. I want it to be fun for them by letting them be a part of the system -- able to upload, discuss, and talk directly to the developers.

Instead, what we have is a slow, hard to get to, developer-centric system with an identity crisis. What's more, it has no direct connection to Tableteer, and provides a messy link to Application Manager.

I created a system that I can control and integrate more. It was not much but I had the best intentions to help the end-users and ultimately love their tablets. It was shot down before it can even take off.

I don't think no one in Maemo.org shares my vision. Sure, they want to improve some things but up to what level? Is it up to the end-user level?

Syndication is easy but I think is the wrong solution. All it does is make the developers' life easier but does really nothing for the end-users.

Reggie I still think this is a good idea. People just didn't give it time, there is so much more stuff that you couldn't have offered to End Users to download that they can't find at maemo.org. I for one would have liked a templete section so people could create templetes and upload them, it would have also been cool for a section for Flash games and programs that run well on the tablets. I have found a lot of games that are fun and run well(and are free) that I have no where to post them for people to fine easly. There is alot of stuff that could have been done with this and I hope you don't give up on it. I know you worked hard on it.

[joepagiii]

well like it or not i think this needs to happen....linux as a whole needs to be drug out and made user friendly and older mindsets need to evolve ..i understand everyone has done there time as newbies heck i will never consider myself above that level and its not too good to give all the answers but sometimes a little direction cant hurt

[GeneralAntilles]

I have to clarify that I'm when I say Maemo.org, it's the folks that run it, not the developers.

Perhaps, but did you bother to try communicating with them about it, or did you just assume that they're not interested? X-Fade (Niels Breet) is the new(ish) community man-on-the-inside* for maemo.org. His entire job is to get with the community and make things happen for the website, and this certainly fits into the realm of "things". If you'd been following the discussions on the lists and announcements on maemo.org, you'd realize that Nokia is trying to move maemo.org more into community hands and for the community's desires.

*We've also got dneary (Dave Neary) as the new community docmaster, and andre (Andre Klapper) and guenther (Karsten Bräckelmann) as the new bugmasters.

[jukey]

IMHO the maemo.org download section ist a very good place for tablet beginners to catch software for there device.
Most of the applications in the download section provide a link to there garage page or home page.

End user to end user discussions are possible in ITT without any problem. Discussions about new desktop backgrounds, levels für numty physics and stuff like this could be discussed here too.

On maemo.org the problem is, that there seems to be no possibility not to show a forum / bugzilla / ... per application. E.g. for me it is not transparent where to post a bug. In bugs.maemo.or or in the bugzilla of the project? where to discuss the software? Maybe it would be a good idea to let the owner of a maemo.org project put links to discussions / levels / stuff (e.g. in ITT) into the project page. But not only the owner - other people to like in a wiki.

Just my 2 cent,
jukey

[Reggie]

Perhaps, but did you bother to try communicating with them about it, or did you just assume that they're not interested? X-Fade (Niels Breet) is the new(ish) community man-on-the-inside* for maemo.org.

Yup, some months back. Yes, I know about X-Fade (link (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=165364#post165364)).

[briand]

Reggie --

I understand what you're saying, and I am in agreement with your thinking on the process -- it should be convenient for the users. ...and, I say that as a developer (although, not [yet] an NIT developer).

I hope that some version of your vision comes to pass, here... it is, as you've noted, sorely needed, and should be driven by the needs/wants of the end-users, regardless of (and sometimes, despite) their individual technical acumen.

Is it perfect? No. ...nor is it necessarily cast in stone, either. I think you've got a good starting point, and that you're going at it from the right direction. It should be about making things easier and more convenient for the users. If that means it makes it more difficult, or less convenient, for the developers, then maybe that's the price to be paid. ...or something that can be improved upon as the whole process matures.

[Texrat]

I'm still confused as to why this topic has to polarize. I also don't understand why syndication wasn't a solution.

But what I do understand is that two different (but related) core issues are being blurred here, as gnuite pointed out, and I think this discussion is just gonna stay wrapped around the axle until the 2 distinct conversations are separated. To reiterate, they are:

-using maemo garage (or alternatives) to manage app development

-using maemo downloads (or alternatives) to make finished apps available to end users

There have already been threads created (and HIGHLY populated) for both topics-- so can't we ease back into the best of each one and continue the dialog there? Otherwise I think this is just going to get messier... especially since both sides do have very valid points.

[dkwatts]

I'm still confused as to why this topic has to polarize. I also don't understand why syndication wasn't a solution.

But what I do understand is that two different (but related) core issues are being blurred here, as gnuite pointed out, and I think this discussion is just gonna stay wrapped around the axle until the 2 distinct conversations are separated. To reiterate, they are:

-using maemo garage (or alternatives) to manage app development

-using maemo downloads (or alternatives) to make finished apps available to end users

There have already been threads created (and HIGHLY populated) for both topics-- so can't we ease back into the best of each one and continue the dialog there? Otherwise I think this is just going to get messier... especially since both sides do have very valid points.

I'm still confused:

Where is the End-User one-stop shop for downloading developing NumptyPhysics levels, desktop backgrounds, themes, MicroB userstyles, Flash Games etc.?

[Jaffa]

Where is the End-User one-stop shop for downloading developing NumptyPhysics levels, desktop backgrounds, themes, MicroB userstyles, Flash Games etc.?

Indeed, there isn't one: no-ones been uploading their content to the systems currently available. Having said that, I can see a clear distinction between application software (which may be supported by the author, has distinct versions etc) and user-generated content such as background images.

Themes are effectively applications, so should be in downloads.maemo.org, as could userstyles (and, if desired, backgrounds or - more likely - collections thereof).

Flash games are a little dangerous: copyright violations are likely to be occurring left, right and centre if they're uploaded to random places.

All of your examples could fit into downloads.maemo.org without requiring too much in the way of a user contortion.

[Texrat]

I'm still confused:

Where is the End-User one-stop shop for downloading developing NumptyPhysics levels, desktop backgrounds, themes, MicroB userstyles, Flash Games etc.?

You bring up a good question, but that still dilutes the subject. Those aren't maemo applications, so if another site hosts them, there isn't any overlap or conflict with existing prescribed resources.

So here we have a legitimate fork, and in my opinion what Reggie proposed would fit the bill specific to that context. At the same time, I believe maemo should be pressured to add support for such things.

EDIT: I see Andrew partially disagrees with me on what constitutes a maemo app. That's fine. I just think that most of what dkwatts listed are support files, not apps-- BUT I do think maemo should broaden to embrace them (not the Flash).

[Benson]

Themes are effectively applications, so should be in downloads.maemo.org, as could userstyles (and, if desired, backgrounds or - more likely - collections thereof).
User stylesheets I disagree with, in general; while Brontide has a nice modular approach, you only have in general one userContent.css. Brontide's userContent.css includes other files that do all the styling, so it becomes plausible (given that approach) to do it.

It requires, however, some such well-known package containing a core userContent.css or script to generate one before you can reasonably install various stylesheets. Unless you've got that, they're just so many recipes you can borrow from to build your own monolithic userContent.css; while not impossible, putting them in maemo.org/downloads seems bad to me.

[andrewfblack]

The whole point should be that maemo.org doesn't have a place for things like themes and NumptyPhysics levels levels so why not make a place for them here. Also if people are coming here for them wouldn't it make since to make this a one stop shop for the programs that use those and any other programs. We can't make maemo.org add a ton of new features, but reggie can add any features like that over here if he likes.

@Texrat I don't disagree with you a Maemo App is something written for Maemo OS.

As a side not if I wrote a new in Flash the I planed to release to Maemo would that not be considered a Maemo App? I mean I can take a Python program and get it to work on other OSes, but that isn't what this discusstion is about.

[Texrat]

The whole point should be that maemo.org doesn't have a place for things like themes and NumptyPhysics levels levels so why not make a place for them here.

If that WAS the whole point then I doubt there would much (if any) argument. ;)

As a side not if I wrote a new in Flash the I planed to release to Maemo would that not be considered a Maemo App?.

I would say no, and so would maemo folks.

[gnuite]

The whole point should be that maemo.org doesn't have a place for things like themes and NumptyPhysics levels levels so why not make a place for them here. Also if people are coming here for them wouldn't it make since to make this a one stop shop for the programs that use those and any other programs. We can't make maemo.org add a ton of new features, but reggie can add any features like that over here if he likes.
We can request that they be added to maemo.org, though, and even if they're not, syndication could make ITTSS a "one-stop shop" without fragmenting the developers.

[andrewfblack]

I think I have decided the best thing for me to do is to shut up on this thread it seems that no matter what I say on this topic I wrong. So no need for me to say anymore we will just have to keep digging through forum post for anything that maemo.org doesn't have on there site it looks like.

[Texrat]

I think I have decided the best thing for me to do is to shut up on this thread it seems that no matter what I say on this topic I wrong. So no need for me to say anymore we will just have to keep digging through forum post for anything that maemo.org doesn't have on there site it looks like.

Andrew, a defeatist response is surely no solution. ;) If nothing else, your challenges make people refine their argument.

[tabletrat]

Additionally (and probably unpopularly) i think relying -solely- on repos hurts tablets. I think whenever possible, tablet developers should make some attempt to release a version which statically links any necessary libraries so that there is no dependency hell.

Not unpopular with me. Almost like a lot of the software doesn't want to be installed. I am sure there are many people that just completely give up trying to get somethings installed.

[andrewfblack]

We can request that they be added to maemo.org, though, and even if they're not, syndication could make ITTSS a "one-stop shop" without fragmenting the developers.

What i consider syndication is we have the exact same thing that Maemo.org has. If I am wrong then let me know. So in that case ITTSS would not be a one stop shop. Also even if reggie was to syndicate the stuff from maemo.org it would take weeks to work it out since for one they two sites use differant programs. So wouldn't it make since to go ahead and post the programs here until some thing like that could be worked out. If there was a way to post something on maemo.org and have it show up here, and have the ability to list stuff here that isn't on maemo.org that would be a good idea. I'm sure it can be done but it would take time to work out.

[andrewfblack]

Andrew, a defeatist response is surely no solution. ;) If nothing else, your challenges make people refine their argument.

Well I feel that I have been personally attacked by atleast one person in this thread. BTW its not you. I guess I should just get over it and try to help work something out.

[dkwatts]

We can request that they be added to maemo.org, though, and even if they're not, syndication could make ITTSS a "one-stop shop" without fragmenting the developers.

I'm confused:

How can itTSS syndicate "developing" themes and NumptyPhysics levels, if they are not on maemo.org in the first place?

[Benson]

Additionally (and probably unpopularly) i think relying -solely- on repos hurts tablets. I think whenever possible, tablet developers should make some attempt to release a version which statically links any necessary libraries so that there is no dependency hell.

Not unpopular with me. Almost like a lot of the software doesn't want to be installed. I am sure there are many people that just completely give up trying to get somethings installed.Responding to both posts...

I see no need to have things statically linked in order to be independently downloadable; links to where you can find those libraries (or, perhaps, mirroring the libraries) is much more sane.

But the whole point of repositories is so you don't have "dependency hell". If you have those problems, it's an issue of how the repositories are set up, how many of them there are, etc.; fixing that (by using maemo.org extras repo, mainly) is what GA, Tex, and others are advocating, and will avoid both "dependency hell" and every app having its own version of every (non-stock OS) library statically linked in.

FWIW, I don't often finding dependency hunting especially hellious when using a dependency-less packaging system (slackware fanboy here!); and it's not all that bad when using dpkg. But I recognize that there are indeed "many people", as you say, who would quit because they have no knowledge. That's why apt-get install $PACKAGE is supposed to just work.

[gnuite]

I'm confused:

How can itTSS syndicate "developing" themes and NumptyPhysics levels, if they are not on maemo.org in the first place?
I wasn't arguing against adding themes and game levels to ITTSS. I was arguing against re-listing applications, which should already be listed on the Maemo Downloads website. Syndicate what already exists, and add themes/levels if necessary (that is, if Maemo Downloads won't allow them to be hosted there). And don't advocate listing applications directly in ITTSS - list them on Maemo Downloads instead, and you get ITTSS syndication for free.

[Texrat]

I think people are reading quickly. The hazard of a lot of blather.

We should take Stephen's approach from this point on and stealthily vote our sentiments with a bunch of silent Thanks. :D

[andrewfblack]

OK so Basicly no on dissagrees that it would be nice to have somewhere to download everything from Maemo Apps to theme's to backgrounds everything. I think that syndication of the Maemo Apps would be a good idea if we could get something coded that would add the app to ITTSS list and make a topic for it in forums. Now for the time being would you guys not agree it would be best to have a download section here that has everything. Yes I know Devolpers would have to upload twice but once/if we get syndication figured out. I will take reggie and maemo.org guys working together to figure how to write something that will do it. If its possible.

So what I'm asking would it not be better to have something then nothing. I don't know if reggie would be willing to synicate the maemo.org apps if it was possible to do it, and still have uploads here. What do you guys think about it.

[Texrat]

So what I'm asking would it not be better to have something then nothing. I don't know if reggie would be willing to synicate the maemo.org apps if it was possible to do it, and still have uploads here. What do you guys think about it.

I propose starting small.

First, Reggie could revive his idea but with an exclusive scope as has been recommended by some.

Second, he could push for the syndication. IIRC X-Fade was working on that as of last month.

Third, we hog-tie or local maemo advocate (*cough* Jaffa *cough*) and have him refine/expand his original proposals to incorporate additions to the maemo downloads scope.

:D

EDIT: Oh, hyvää iltaa Quim!

EDIT 2: I think Downloads should be split into two subsections--

DOWNLOADS
-Themes, Levels, and other Support Files
-Syndicated Application Links

[sjgadsby]

We should take Stephen's approach from this point on and stealthily vote our sentiments with a bunch of silent Thanks.

Noooooo! My cover's blown!

Now, where's that bloody "No Thanks!" button?

[Jerome]

I'd like to point out something: a quick check on maemo.org download page shows that applications are downloaded between 1000 and 3000 times for the most popular (4000 for pidgin). That would seem to mean that less than 1% of the tablet owners use it. It is not many users.

[andrewfblack]

I think that might only count if download off site not if downloaded from repo but I might be wrong.

[Texrat]

I'd like to point out something: a quick check on maemo.org download page shows that applications are downloaded between 1000 and 3000 times for the most popular (4000 for pidgin). That would seem to mean that less than 1% of the tablet owners use it. It is not many users.

...which, again, points to an educational opportunity.

[gnuite]

Texrat sure has been outing a lot of people lately. ;-)

[sjgadsby]

Texrat sure has been outing a lot of people lately.

It's just another service he provides.

[Texrat]

Texrat sure has been outing a lot of people lately. ;-)

I'm not touching that one. :p

It's just another service he provides.

Yes, there's that, bad jokes, and reminders to rcadden to bathe.

[sjgadsby]

...and reminders to rcadden to bathe.

What worries me is that he apparently takes his phone with him when he does.

[andrewfblack]

I just want to say wow I didn't think this thread would ever make 12 pages lol

[Texrat]

I just want to say wow I didn't think this thread would ever make 12 pages lol

Never underestimate our ability to incessantly belabor any topic.

[joepagiii]

well i think it wouldn't hurt to have some software here and elsewhere i kinda don't like hunting for new stuff all the time..and i do like beating dead horses:D

[andrewfblack]

I know this is off topic but I was just think about the templetes does noone make them or is it just the fact that there is nowhere to post them? I guess you can put them under desktop environment but they don't seem to fit there to me.

[Jaffa]

You bring up a good question, but that still dilutes the subject. Those aren't maemo applications, so if another site hosts them, there isn't any overlap or conflict with existing prescribed resources.

Agreed, that was the point I started to make but ended up shifting my opinion half way through my post. I may have been wrong - it happens more frequently than not :-)

EDIT: I see Andrew partially disagrees with me on what constitutes a maemo app. That's fine. I just think that most of what dkwatts listed are support files, not apps-- BUT I do think maemo should broaden to embrace them (not the Flash).

Agreed again. Certainly there's nothing inherent in the current downloads system which'd prevent themes or (collections of) backgrounds being added to downloads.maemo.org. As Benson pointed out, user styles aren't so easy to mix & match, and non-maemo specific Flash games would be a bit of a tough sell.

maemo-specific Flash apps/games shouldn't have any problem, though, IMHO.

[Benson]

I know this is off topic but I was just think about the templetes does noone make them or is it just the fact that there is nowhere to post them? I guess you can put them under desktop environment but they don't seem to fit there to me.

What templates?

[Bundyo]

Not templates, but templetes :D It is easy to confuse those two.

[Jaffa]

I know this is off topic but I was just think about the templetes does noone make them or is it just the fact that there is nowhere to post them? I guess you can put them under desktop environment but they don't seem to fit there to me.

Templates for what? Themes? See Theme Maker (http://thememaker.garage.maemo.org/). For other themes (interestingly enough, at downloads.maemo.org):

http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/NuvoPearl/
http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/lcars/

...there are also others listed on the Theme Maker website.

[Benson]

And some hang out in the screenshots thread here...

[andrewfblack]

Not templates, but templetes :D It is easy to confuse those two.


Yeah I 'm sure its one of my my 1000 spelling errors I have two monitors at work and I'm on forums on one and working on other at same time.

[andrewfblack]

Templates for what? Themes? See Theme Maker (http://thememaker.garage.maemo.org/). For other themes (interestingly enough, at downloads.maemo.org):

http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/NuvoPearl/
http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/lcars/

...there are also others listed on the Theme Maker website.

Yeah but you would think there would be hundreds of them.

[Benson]

There's not. I've seen less than 15 total, I think.

So I guess the answer to your original query would be that (nearly) noone makes them.

[joepagiii]

There's not. I've seen less than 15 total, I think.

So I guess the answer to your original query would be that (nearly) noone makes them.

or they dont share

[Bundyo]

Yeah I 'm sure its one of my my 1000 spelling errors I have two monitors at work and I'm on forums on one and working on other at same time.

I have two monitors at home and at work + countless NXs, RDPs and SSHs, spellchecker is still doing wonders mind you :)

[Texrat]

This calls for a contest!

Or was that a musical show in the barn? (apologies to those who don't get the context)

[joepagiii]

This calls for a contest!

Or was that a musical show in the barn? (apologies to those who don't get the context)

worst speller or most irrelevant post:)

[andrewfblack]

I'm so used to my computer at home showing me what ever I type wrong on forums that I forget my work computer doesn't do that.

[joepagiii]

well i guess this thread will denigrate into people agreeing to dissagree but hey thats good too...the free exchange of ideas will lock into someones head and well...help make some good changes

[andrewfblack]

Lets just hope that we get some kind of download section back here.

[dkwatts]

Templates for what? Themes? See Theme Maker (http://thememaker.garage.maemo.org/). For other themes (interestingly enough, at downloads.maemo.org):

http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/NuvoPearl/
http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/lcars/

...there are also others listed on the Theme Maker website.

The other Themes are under development. :D

After posting them some where on some site, their developers desperately look for discussion between themselves and the users.

Please -- someone propose a solution where users can provide direct feedback to developers and developers can offer help and talk directly to the user community!

[joepagiii]

uhh i think we are trying.....the problem here is a devoloper puts something out...everyone rushes to try it...people like who dont have the full 100 % understanding of what said program can do or how to make it work gets frustrated then sulks off...or gets told to search for there answers

[andrewfblack]

I know alot of people hate wiki's if someone had a problem and found out how to fix it then it got put on the wiki it would be easy to find and point people to. (Gets ready to be flammed for bringing up wiki)

[Benson]

/me blasts andrewfblack with liquid N2
(That's the opposite of a flame, in case anyone didn't get it.)

[Jaffa]

Please -- someone propose a solution where users can provide direct feedback to developers and developers can offer help and talk directly to the user community!

Touché - however no-one's suggesting that there shouldn't be a better communication mechanism between users & developers. Some projects have mailing lists and fora (some of which are hosted on garage, but that's not important right now), for things like themes such overheads are probably overkill (but there'll come a time when a theme author wishes he had version control).

If ITT can provide some kind of automated service for that, all's the better. As long as it doesn't mean as an application developer: 1) duplicating content I've already put in the de facto place, 2) following disparate threads and comments elsewhere when my project might have somewhere more specific.

If we're talking about optional developer tooling, that's great - but that's not what Reggie originally announced.

[andrewfblack]

BTW I did put some info in the wiki today.

[qgil]

Er... let's see.

The constructive proposal to move forward:

- Can you please create a wiki page listing the use cases you want to satisfy? I bet we can accomplish all of them in a sensible way, making users and developers happy without doubling work and tasks at ITT and maemo.org. Please detail all the requirements you would need from maemo.org, so we know exactly what do we have and what is missing.

The little details:

- Canola has been presented as a good case for this software service in ITT. Well, http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/canola2/ is a good example of an application listed in maemo downloads that is being updated regularly as new releases are produced. So what? Syndicating the information generated in maemo downloads ITT would have just the same thing and the (really busy) Canola developers could keep the current routine instead of having to double effort every time they have a new release (and they do many before reaching the desired final version).

- There are themes in maemo downloads i.e. http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/NuvoPearl/

- There are not NumptyPhysics levels to downloads. By the way, I couldn't find them either at http://numptyphysics.garage.maemo.org/ . Do they exist independently from the application? Can a user save download and add them separately? Is anything stopping anybody from uploading these levels in maemo downloads now, and even suggesting a specific space for them?

- But what is most important, if you find other things missing... did you ever ask for them? Someone asked for PC downloads and now there is http://maemo.org/downloads/PC/ . I don't see why anything useful couldn't be implemented, if feasible.

- Currently maemo.org works like this: Nokia is funding some guys to gather what is relevant for the community and do it. Or specify it if it's too big, so we can plan a budget for that. Nokia is happy when the maemo community is happy. Many people in this thread have said "talk to X-Fade" aka Niels Breet. He is the webmaster and he is the one pushing the agenda of things to be done. He is also the developer of the maemo downloads, so he knows the thing and what else could do. Nobody at Nokia s bloking him or anybody else from implementing improvements and receiving new feature requests.

- Sorry but I don't buy the argument of "let's make this patch that we know is problematic but at least fast to implement, and then we can discuss with more time the right solution". Because in the meantime the fast patch doesn't help solving the problem and in fact the chances that makes the situation worse and harder to solve are high.

- "If you are developing a service for developers, please discuss with the developers first" sounds like a sensible advice. It might sound like we are having a discussion here, but in fact all the developers with a name and a populat application that have taken part in the discussion have the same opinion. If they are not convinced, who will ITT convince? Convincing only those not concerned about maemo extras and maemo downloads will not help ITT users, that is for sure. Forcing the _senior_ developers to either follow a process they dislike or boycot an initiative of a forum they like won't help either.

So please, wait a bit, discuss a bit more, let's define the use cases and let's agree on the sensible ways to solve them.

One clarification:

- About syndication, do we know what are we talking about? Identified metadata that can be pulled from anywhere and reformatted in the way you wish i.e. perfectly integrated to ITT. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOAP for metadata to describe software projects. You know what is RSS/Atom about to report updates. I wonder what information about a piece of software or a release would you add here that couldn't come from the original sources at maemo.org. Then the user feedback proceeds as usual in ITT, nobody is questioning that.

And about people in charge of maemo.org not caring about users.

- It's because we care about users that we believe in quality awareness among amateur & professional developers and we agree on related processes that create "extra" work for developers (as opposed to just upload a file and ask for people to enjoy).

- It's because we care about users that we don't want them to fall by accident in a developer & techie space like *.maemo.org. ITT is a much better place for them and this is what I have said in this thread and many times before elsewhere. Syndication allows users to stay in ITT while getting software properly tagged as stable/beta/TNT and the right information from the place where the developers are.

- It's because we care about users that we want all the stable and interesting software hosted in the extras repository, and all the rest out of it. How the user gets that software it doesn't matter as much: app manager in the tablet, install file in ITT or maemo.org or the project website or a blog post or... If a user skips the repository thing i.e. installing directly .deb packages they won't be aware of updates. If a user installs an app in repo X nobody has reviewed (extras plans to have community review) the stability and performance of her tablet might be at risk. What is more, by installing one app that activates a 3rd party repo, the user will see the rest of apps in that repo in the application manager. All kinds of unstable/unreliable software can be there but they all look the same in the app manager. Risks increase of getting dependencies problems, more unstable software underneath, batteries drained, poor performance...

- It's because we care about users that we think it is better for them to know that there are NNN apps for their OS version, and be sure that this is much of it, seeing the same numbers wherever they go for picking their software. Having 192 here, 74 there, 17 over there, yet 1 more in my personal site and not all of the apps in all the places won't make their life easier. And again, who provides the quality criteria across these sites? Going through the extras-devel & extras path is the best way to have the most experienced guys watching at least the software that leads the ranks and calls itself 'stable'.

And finally

- Sure, whatever is missing in maemo.org could be covered here. You are welcome to implement in ITT whatever is missing for end users (everything since, as I say, it is our explicit intend not to cover them. But if there is something missing useful for developers... what is the problem helping improving maemo.org - the clear resource for maemo development? What is the interest of ITT competing with developer resources and developer audience, this is what is difficult to understand.

[Bundyo]

About NumptyPhysics levels:
http://numptyphysics.garage.maemo.org/levels/

[qgil]

About NumptyPhysics levels:
http://numptyphysics.garage.maemo.org/levels/

Doh, thanks.

otoh, what is so weird about going to the NumptyPhysics website to download NumptyPhysics levels and, again, have an RSS feed at http://numptyphysics.garage.maemo.org/levels/ that could be syndicated here so Mr Tim Edmonds doesn't need to post twice or more.

[Bundyo]

But why a RSS feed, wouldn't in this case a JSON request be more appropriate and probably lighter?

[andrewfblack]

Doh, thanks.

otoh, what is so weird about going to the NumptyPhysics website to download NumptyPhysics levels and, again, have an RSS feed at http://numptyphysics.garage.maemo.org/levels/ that could be syndicated here so Mr Tim Edmonds doesn't need to post twice or more.

What about custom levels were are you supose to upload them?

[Bundyo]

What about custom levels were are you supose to upload them?

These ARE custom levels - each user now sends them to Tim, who puts them up on the site. But this mechanism can be simplified if they are uploaded to maemo.org by the users creating them for instance and syndicated everywhere else.

[andrewfblack]

Hey Qgil is there anyway there could be a Categorie for themes on maemo.org then Desktop Environment doens't really seem to fit it. If I was a new End User I wouldn't know to look there for themes.

[Benson]

I can't speak for Quim, but going from what he just said, I think you should direct that question to x-fade: (emphasis mine)
- Currently maemo.org works like this: Nokia is funding some guys to gather what is relevant for the community and do it. Or specify it if it's too big, so we can plan a budget for that. Nokia is happy when the maemo community is happy. Many people in this thread have said "talk to X-Fade" aka Niels Breet. He is the webmaster and he is the one pushing the agenda of things to be done. He is also the developer of the maemo downloads, so he knows the thing and what else could do. Nobody at Nokia s bloking him or anybody else from implementing improvements and receiving new feature requests.

[andrewfblack]

yeah your right

[Reggie]

I would like to reply to Quim's long post but I would do it tonight when I get home.

In the mean time, to start things off, here's the Syndication Discussion Wiki:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Maemo.org_Syndication

If this does materialize, I hope I can find the time to implement it...

[qgil]

If this does materialize, I hope I can find the time to implement it...

Is the ITT development open? Would it be possible to help you? Either through volunteering or paid work.

[gnuite]

Is the ITT development open.
If it is, I'm adding a "No Thanks!" button. :)

(not so that I can use it on you, qgil, obviously)

[qgil]

"Would it be possible to help you?" was the important piece. :)

[GeneralAntilles]

. . . adding a "No Thanks!" button. :)


/me cowers in fear.

[Texrat]

"Would it be possible to help you?" was the important piece. :)

Several of us have volunteered, but we have determined that Reggie is like Superman... with no known Kryptonite...

[Texrat]

/me cowers in fear.

As well you should.

I look forward to driving you into the Negative Zone. [imagine evil smiley here]

[GeneralAntilles]

I look forward to driving you into the Negative Zone. [imagine evil smiley here]

Pfft. You? No way, you'll be just a drop in the bucket next to the hordes of indignant *****s that will drag me down into the deepest, darkest depths. ;) :p

[Navi]

If it is, I'm adding a "No Thanks!" button. :)

(not so that I can use it on you, qgil, obviously)
Yeah, we totally need one.

[joepagiii]

declining to make any *****ic comments before my first cup of cofee

[pa28pilot]

I would like to turn this discussion around and look at it from the perspective of the end-users. When I say end-users, I mean the majority -- consumers with zero to average knowledge of linux, packages, debs, repositories, and Maemo. Let's face it, much of what we have now are just too confusing for them. A lot of them won't install apps and a lot of them will not go as far to know what Maemo is....

Thank you Reggie. I figured as much from the my first reading of your idea.

By way of background, as I'm sure others here may be, I have been around the IT business and commercial software development for nigh on a quarter-century now. I have also been involved in evangelizing new technologies, most notably the Internet in the late 80's and early 90's, and a number of network security technologies. Most recently I have been CTO of an enterprise software startup. That experience colors my perspective on things like this.

I love my Internet Tablet and know that several people have bought them, largely as a result of my ranting.

I have to admit my first reaction was to be a bit appalled at the reaction to someone who, for all intents and purposes is offering essentially free marketing to developers of maemo applications. My second reaction was a bit more critical in that it reminded me of many of the reasons it has taken us so long to see credible efforts at end-user friendly Linux desktop environments. (It requires an effort of will for me to avoid launching into rant about the behavior I have seen in those communities and how many of those people, however well-intentioned, seem to have a complete lack of understanding of end-users and the necessity to make things easier for the intended beneficiaries. In general, I tend to feel that people like that deserve to lose. I know they wouldn't last ten seconds in a commercial software business.)

As someone who has had his Internet Tablet for about a year now, I have to say that though I totally understand and appreciate the value of the other places to obtain maemo software, I have found many of them, including garage, maemo.org/downloads and some of the repositories problematic in terms of availability, ease of finding specific appropriate files (no end user should have to know what "bora" means), or in many cases, and as one developer has already mentioned, context.

People don't download software in a vacuum. They want to know how it's different from other choices, perhaps including the choice of not using a particular application.

Developers, if they're professional in their outlook (yes, even hobbyists can think this way- my amateur radio club has several books to their credit), should want whatever constructive input they can get to make their creation better, even if they choose not to use it.

I read several Internet Tablet related sources every day, but as an end user, this is the one to which I keep coming for the majority of information that matters.

I totally appreciate and support the desire for a unified site (and perhaps repository) for installable maemo apps. I don't see any conflict from having resources here, of whatever sort (.install links, .deb files, or hot links) to help people find things that are right for them to use.

All that having been said, I do think that people should use things like the repository mechanism to allow for updates and the like. I have another linux-based platform (a Dreambox satellite receiver), and the best images for it all have a little button that allows for the easy addition of plugins and upgrades. There are issues with the developers on different continents not always updating things in ways that suit other continents, but on the whole, people are trying to make things easy to use. Despite this.. I have to go to a forum not unlike this one to find the most timely updates for certain components.

I realize that many developers don't have a lot of time. I also realize that applications often gain advocates who aren't even the original developer. Anything that better showcases an application in a way that makes it easier for the intended audience to find it is a good thing. In what some would call the "real world," it costs people a lot of money to find those.

I can see that in general, folks here are constructive, I'm glad. I think in summary, I'd simply urge people not to look a gift horse in the mouth.

[pa28pilot]

This calls for a contest!

Or was that a musical show in the barn? (apologies to those who don't get the context)

Oh, thanks Texrat, you just reminded me of my high school theatre days. I was in that show.

Though I do have to admit, we had the prettiest girls coming to visit the drama department.

[Texrat]

Oh, thanks Texrat, you just reminded me of my high school theatre days. I was in that show.

Did you get Mickey Rooney's autograph?

[krisse]

Well, I'm a bit shocked to see this project killed off so quickly like this.

Garage and maemo.org are developer sites, not user sites, and it would have been nice to see some site designed for end users carrying a download section.

The average end user who visits maemo.org will assume it's only for programmers and leave, because that's what it was mainly designed for.

No one seems to want to do tablet sites aimed at end users, sometimes it seems like the tablet world is just developers and hardcore users talking to each other.

Tableteer is maybe the closest to a genuine user site, but it only gets updated once in a blue moon and doesn't have much content. It's also inaccessible from a PC if you go through the front page.

[Reggie]

Krisse, right now as it stands, the plan is to syndicate with maemo.org. The project is on the wiki (http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Maemo.org_Syndication). It should still work and I think it can still use the same system to re-list apps and probably add additional features later on.

I think the main confusion had something to do with the terms "uploading" and "re-listing". I really meant re-listing apps (with upload option) with developer involvement but it seems like the consensus is to re-list (with no upload option) without developer involvement whatsoever, except for the discussion thread that it will automatically create.

I'm talking directly to Quim and Jussi now and hopefully everything gets straitened out.

Title has been renamed to [RESTARTED].

[Bundyo]

That's what the syndication is for - you can make it as user friendly as you wish :)

Seems Reggie got there first. :)

[krisse]

Okay, great! :-)

As long as the apps are downloadable here and the data is accurate and easy to understand, then it doesn't really matter where the original data is from.

[andrewfblack]

Reggie will be any features to allow uploads of stuff that really doesn't have a place on maemo.org like Custom Made Wall Paper Collection or others stuff or are we going to have to try and get maemo.org to make a section for stuff like that and it just be ported over here. Just wondering.

[Reggie]

Reggie will be any features to allow uploads of stuff that really doesn't have a place on maemo.org like Custom Made Wall Paper Collection or others stuff or are we going to have to try and get maemo.org to make a section for stuff like that and it just be ported over here. Just wondering.

We'll push for maemo.org to accommodate every possible type of upload that the IT community needs. :D I think they are willing to accommodate them.

[andrewfblack]

Thats cool
BTW I have to use IE at work and to thank people now I have to click open link in new window/tab for some reason.

[tabletrat]

Responding to both posts...

I see no need to have things statically linked in order to be independently downloadable; links to where you can find those libraries (or, perhaps, mirroring the libraries) is much more sane.

But the whole point of repositories is so you don't have "dependency hell". If you have those problems, it's an issue of how the repositories are set up, how many of them there are, etc.; fixing that (by using maemo.org extras repo, mainly) is what GA, Tex, and others are advocating, and will avoid both "dependency hell" and every app having its own version of every (non-stock OS) library statically linked in.

FWIW, I don't often finding dependency hunting especially hellious when using a dependency-less packaging system (slackware fanboy here!); and it's not all that bad when using dpkg. But I recognize that there are indeed "many people", as you say, who would quit because they have no knowledge. That's why apt-get install $PACKAGE is supposed to just work.

I think the package manager GUI should 'just work' really. I tried to install the python editor and have now given up, as it seems to change its mind what it needs, and the instructions on the maemo python page don't work.
There are more pieces of software like this than on other platforms I have used, which considering how little software is available is a bit of a problem.
I agree, statically linking would make no differences if the repository thing worked well, but it really doesn't.

[Benson]

OK, so the package manager GUI should just work. <sigh /> It's the same thing; if apt-get doesn't warn, the app mugger will go through just fine. For some things that are warnings in apt-get, the app mugger will quit, to prevent screwing your system up even a little (and readily reversible) bit. But dependency issues are identical for both.

I recognize that the repos are broke; and having some working way of installing the software is good as a stop-gap until that's rectified. I just don't think statically linking is it.

[dkwatts]

[RESTARTED] + "maemo.org to accommodate every possible type of upload that the IT community needs."

Thanks from an end-user.

[pipeline]

Statically linking obviously only works in some situations like for essentials like openssh which i might want to leave installer on mmc... or for some minor dependency which would not add much bloat. And god forbid people bundle python runtime with py files :)

But it would be nice additional option for any package... in case you want to burn your own cd of favorite apps or just leave them on mmc... maybe 1 year+ from now people running those 50 repos wont be hosting it anymore.

[rcadden]

I'm glad to see this restarted, and it sounds like it's still going to be what Reggie originally intended, which I think, as Krisse pointed out, is good for the Tablets to start moving more towards consumers.

It sounds like Reggie was concerned (and rightfully so) about leaving developers out of the loop of where their app would end up, and it was made clear that if it's coming to ITT, they're cool with that, so long as it's no extra work on them.

Clearly there are still the logistics of setting it up, but I for one am glad to see a movement like this push through, to make the application 'environment' more friendly to consumers.

[gnuite]

Krisse, right now as it stands, the plan is to syndicate with maemo.org. The project is on the wiki (http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Maemo.org_Syndication). It should still work and I think it can still use the same system to re-list apps and probably add additional features later on.

I think the main confusion had something to do with the terms "uploading" and "re-listing". I really meant re-listing apps (with upload option) with developer involvement but it seems like the consensus is to re-list (with no upload option) without developer involvement whatsoever, except for the discussion thread that it will automatically create.
Sounds good to me, so long as the phrase "re-list (with no upload option) without developer involvement" doesn't imply that other users can start listing applications that aren't (and should be) listed in Maemo Downloads. That is, I hope it just means programmatic (automatic) re-listing, not allowing other users to list things that aren't listed in Maemo Downloads.

I mean, certain things may be allowable, like themes, links to Flash websites, or game levels, but in my opinion those sorts of software should only be listed on ITTSS if they are not allowed in Maemo Downloads. And it sounds like Reggie is in communication with the maemo.org folks to allow all this type of software anyway. Assuming maemo.org allows everything that we need, then ITTSS shouldn't need a separate listing mechanism.

If maemo.org is not so flexible, then the danger, of course, is that such a mechanism would open the possibility of people only listing their applications on ITTSS. This should be avoided, either by not adding such a mechanism in the first place or by adding a warning on the ITTSS listing page that strenuously suggests that the would-be lister consider listing their application on Maemo Downloads instead.

[pipeline]

Reggie you have been inserted as a dependency to maemo os 2008 and as such we demand to see all your php code to attain gpl compliance (well for your stuff of course). Please maintain 99.999% availalability since everything else runs 88.888%. I myself would also like to burn itt onto a cd so if the interweb goes down i can see last years posts.

[Texrat]

Well, I'm a bit shocked to see this project killed off so quickly like this.

Garage and maemo.org are developer sites, not user sites, and it would have been nice to see some site designed for end users carrying a download section.

The average end user who visits maemo.org will assume it's only for programmers and leave, because that's what it was mainly designed for.

No one seems to want to do tablet sites aimed at end users, sometimes it seems like the tablet world is just developers and hardcore users talking to each other.

Tableteer is maybe the closest to a genuine user site, but it only gets updated once in a blue moon and doesn't have much content. It's also inaccessible from a PC if you go through the front page.

Krisse, no offense, but you're back to blurring the lines between garage and downloads.

Individually some of your points have merit, but I really think it helps this dialog to draw clear distinctions between developers/uploads and users/downloads.

[mullf]

Krisse, right now as it stands, the plan is to syndicate with maemo.org. The project is on the wiki (http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Maemo.org_Syndication). It should still work and I think it can still use the same system to re-list apps and probably add additional features later on.

I think the main confusion had something to do with the terms "uploading" and "re-listing". I really meant re-listing apps (with upload option) with developer involvement but it seems like the consensus is to re-list (with no upload option) without developer involvement whatsoever, except for the discussion thread that it will automatically create.

I'm talking directly to Quim and Jussi now and hopefully everything gets straitened out.

Title has been renamed to [RESTARTED].

I'm glad we've gotten (or are at least on track to get) this resolved. Thank you for your hard work!!!

[qgil]

For posterity: nobody has questioned that Reggie's proposal was pointing in the right direction, nor that ITt is a better place for end users than the developer oriented maemo.org. The question was how to avoid developers doing manual publishing twice and the risk of splitting the information in different places + the risk of having an easy upload feature in ITt deviating from the developer effort of having an integrated and quality aware process in maemo.org.

Syndication solves the first part and now we will work on the implementation.

About the 'easy uploads', it is understandable that in a first glance easy=better - however it is not always like this. The easiest is to give candy to children every time they ask for it and use them as a short term incentive to get other things done - but this will ruin their teeth and their motivation to understand why some things need to be done. Easy uploads out of the sight of the maemo community of developers favour at the end all kinds of system weaknesses and mid term bad user experiences. Main reasons provided in my previous posts here and some proofs in user complaints here and there having the root of the problem in app/applet X with a fancy frontend and an involuntarily harmful backend.

All we have learned something with this discussion.

Hey Qgil is there anyway there could be a Categorie for themes on maemo.org then Desktop Environment doens't really seem to fit it. If I was a new End User I wouldn't know to look there for themes.

The best way for everybody to propose improvements to maemo.org is http://bugs.maemo.org - product Website. Downloads has its own component and you can make your suggestions there. The right developer will pick it up and you will know in real time what is the progress, being able to discuss further details, vote and bug more.

There are currently eight open bugs (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=Website&component=Downloads&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=) of a total of 75 bugs submitted (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=Website&component=Downloads&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=CLOSED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=) to the Downloads component.

Bugs and tasks like now the syndication thing are pushed through monthly sprints where Niels, Dave, Andre, Karsten, the Nemein and Nokia guys meet and decide what comes next. All this process is open and can be followed and actively influenced and supported via the maemo.org development wiki (https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/wiki/index.php?id=106&type=g) and mailing list (https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo2midgard-discussion/2008-May/date.html).

I reckon all this is not well documented and publicitized (this is actually one of the tasks in the May sprint). At least now you see that there is no reason to think in Nokia alone planning and developing maemo.org features behind four walls. In fact today the maemo community has as much initiative and power to organize and implement things in the maemo.org website - but the majority of hasn't still realized that.

You can help, pointing to others in the right directions everythime you see complaint X about maemo.org and getting involved yourselves. The maemo.org Downloads discussion here is just one example on how you can help improving things.

[krisse]

Krisse, no offense, but you're back to blurring the lines between garage and downloads.

Individually some of your points have merit, but I really think it helps this dialog to draw clear distinctions between developers/uploads and users/downloads.

I mentioned garage because a previous comment in the thread said something along the lines of "we've already got maemo.org and garage", and I was purely trying to say they're not aimed at end users.

I'm not sure what you mean by "back to blurring the lines", this is the only time I've mentioned garage as far as I can recall. Maybe you mean someone else?

[anidel]

I've read the last posts fast and I still need some coffee, so bear with me, please...

I think that uploading to Maemo Downloads and/or to ITT should take the same amount of time to developers.
So.. why not allow uploads here by merging the two upload pages ?
The one here and the one in Maemo Downloads.. either by poiting the ITT Upload page to maemo.org or create a new page in maemo.org (that would substitute the previous one) to somehow reflect the fact that the uploader is coming from either places.

What 'uploading' (I won't say 'here' or 'there' as it would be ONE place) means is a different matter.
It should create what it does right now in maemo.org (a package page, downloads stats, comments, install file and so on) ALONG with a ITT forum thread ALONG with something else (resources upload for example, bugzilla and so on).

[anidel]

Should we create a 'What is need ON Maemo.org" in the Syndication project wiki ?
I am thinking at least about Bugzilla.

As a side note, we could even merge garage here.

[Texrat]

I mentioned garage because a previous comment in the thread said something along the lines of "we've already got maemo.org and garage", and I was purely trying to say they're not aimed at end users.

I'm not sure what you mean by "back to blurring the lines", this is the only time I've mentioned garage as far as I can recall. Maybe you mean someone else?

By "back" I don't mean that you were doing it more than once but that it had been done more than once and, well, there you were. :D

Not trying to whip up the dead horse, though. I just think you were making an assumption about end users that may not be true. When I pull maemo.org up, I see Downloads very boldly displayed, and see NumptyPhysics highlighted. That's a good signal SOMEthing for end users is going on. ;)

And it's been said before, but your post seemed to me to be ignoring this fundamental fact and I was surprised that you of all people had not latched onto it: above all else, many of the gripes against maemo point to educational opportunities. So... is there a place on Internet Tablet School to inform your customers what's available at maemo?

Finally, the solution to shortcomings at maemo is NOT fragmentation, but illumination. I think we have that rolling now, but it was NOT part of the original proposal, which did indeed support fragmentation.

/hopefully done

[dont]

I should like some clarification about off-Maemo repositories please.

Q1. I understand that these are considered 'persona no grata' as far as Maemo and ITT is concerned. Is that correct?

Q2. If I develop a new application that I hope will eventually make it into Maemo Extras but that right now is still under development then am I allowed to create my own repository and tell folks about it on ITT?

[Bundyo]

You can create your own, but why bother? Just use extras-devel - it exists for a reason.

[BoxOfSnoo]

Hopefully that reason isn't supposed to be to fail when updating the package list... :D

[Benson]

Repos are like cats in boxes that way. The purpose of extras is to be Bloody Furious. :D

[pa28pilot]

I find it {shocking | disheartening} that people related to communities that claim to value "freedom" as a fundamental tenet can be so utterly committed to constraining the editorial options of what is arguably a social mechanism and discussion forum.

Then again, it would not be the first time that I've seen people so intent on finding technical mechanisms for a (human or social) task that the initial intention became diluted or obscured.

[Jaffa]

I find it {shocking | disheartening} that people related to communities that claim to value "freedom" as a fundamental tenet can be so utterly committed to constraining the editorial options of what is arguably a social mechanism and discussion forum.

<sigh/>

Haven't we moved on already?

Then again, it would not be the first time that I've seen people so intent on finding technical mechanisms for a (human or social) task that the initial intention became diluted or obscured.

OK, now you've lost me. It appeared in the first part of your message you were annoyed at the negative reaction to Reggie's original announcement. But our negativity was on the exact same topic you raise here: it appeared to us that ITSSS was a technical solution to end-user problems, rather than address (what we saw as) the underlying causes. Our point was (and is) that another download catalogue won't solve any of the problems and that the effort would be better placed elsewhere.

Hopefully, we'll see the fruits of some of that effort soon.

[Benson]

I find it {shocking | disheartening} that people related to communities that claim to value "freedom" as a fundamental tenet can be so utterly committed to constraining the editorial options of what is arguably a social mechanism and discussion forum.

Then again, it would not be the first time that I've seen people so intent on finding technical mechanisms for a (human or social) task that the initial intention became diluted or obscured.
I am not, in fact, a FS advocate. I'm OSS, thanks very much.
(Commence flamewar in 3... 2... 1...; but this really is relevant. FS people have a different view of the world, which I (biasedly) consider warped.)

Honestly, I'd say that this is not the first time that I've seen people so intent on finding human or social substitutes for a technical task that the initial intention became diluted or obscured. I see the goal here as related to production of good software in general, and of a system where apps install with minimal input or configuration in particular. Fragmentation hurts that, even when people's efforts to make everything newb-friendly are what leads to it.

People focusing on the human issues leads to thinking in terms of shiny instead of efficient; of "user friendly" instead of "minimal input or configuration"; that's half the problem here, IMO.


But most importantly, I've seen no one "committed to constraining the editorial options" of anyone. We've said we thought it (as implemented) was a bad idea; that's not at all the same as claiming we have a right to stop it, or as making an effort to stop it.

[Bundyo]

I find it {shocking | disheartening} that people related to communities that claim to value "freedom" as a fundamental tenet can be so utterly committed to constraining the editorial options of what is arguably a social mechanism and discussion forum.

There is a very big difference between freedom and chaos.

[Texrat]

I find it {shocking | disheartening} that people related to communities that claim to value "freedom" as a fundamental tenet can be so utterly committed to constraining the editorial options of what is arguably a social mechanism and discussion forum.

I find it disheartening that the point was totally missed.

Maybe you read a different thread, and accidentally responded here?

Not the first time someone in a forum got it all wrong!

[pipeline]

<sigh/>
Haven't we moved on already?


I am not, in fact, a FS advocate. I'm OSS, thanks very much.

There is a very big difference between freedom and chaos.

Maybe you read a different thread, and accidentally responded here?

Not the first time someone in a forum got it all wrong!

Attack the individual(s) who speaks ill of any aspect/assessment about the 'community'? I don't recall any mention to any of your names in his post.. yet your reply quotes him and responds as if he did.

Doesn't that make you feel empty... like saying 'you love lamp' ? No wait that would be like defending the lamp when someone says it sucks.

Or perhaps someone did that you in another post and you replying to the wrong thread?

[Texrat]

Attack the individual(s) who speaks ill of any aspect/assessment about the 'community'? I don't recall any mention to any of your names in his post.. yet your reply quotes him and responds as if he did.

Doesn't that make you feel empty... like saying 'you love lamp' ? No wait that would be like defending the lamp when someone says it sucks.

Or perhaps someone did that you in another post and you replying to the wrong thread?

How ironic pipeline. Aren't you just now doing what you take others to task over? A bit hypocritical, isn't it?

The poster we responded to made a general slam against several posters, and it's patently obvious who he intended to address. It's also obvious he completely misunderstood the reservations that had been expressed about the original proposition, and threw up a straw man in response. Some of us rightly called foul.

It's rather perplexing, too, because it LOOKED like we'd reached an understanding and were on the path toward something everyone could work with. Now here you and the other guy fan the flames again.

Why?

[Benson]

Attack the individual(s) who speaks ill of any aspect/assessment about the 'community'? I don't recall any mention to any of your names in his post.. yet your reply quotes him and responds as if he did.Attack? Perhaps you could show me the attack in my post; I missed it. (I won't presume to speak for the others, but some elaboration on some of theirs might be helpful as well.) The statement you quoted was explaining where the rest of my response comes from. It really doesn't make horribly much sense when you take it out of context, but I even so I don't think it constitutes an attack.

As for who was named; my name was not invoked, I concede. Which is relevant, how?
The comment was addressed to people related to communities that claim to value "freedom" as a fundamental tenet who are utterly committed to constraining the editorial options of [itT].So the first clause would include everyone who posted in this thread; the second, as an accusation of things that didn't happen, doesn't literally apply to any of us. But plainly it was intended to apply to some of us; I think it's reasonable to construe it as intended for all the opponents of Reggie's original download section.

One who paints with a broad brush is likely to receive defenses from many directions; if pa28pilot's goal was to target only certain individuals, listing their names would have been appropriate.

Doesn't that make you feel empty... like saying 'you love lamp' ? No wait that would be like defending the lamp when someone says it sucks.Huh? Not really.
Or perhaps someone did that you in another post and you replying to the wrong thread?Wait a minute, none of us named you; I'll bet someone did this to you someplace else and you accidentally replied here... :rolleyes:

[joepagiii]

wow im afraid to ask ...is there any timeline for this type of site addon...also ga if your out there coul you forward that pm to benson and texrat...or just tell me its imnpossible

[pipeline]

Well i didnt expect the threatening pm from texrat... but the response here was expected...

Yes i take the liberty to chastise you in the same way your chasting others.

Since i gain no enjoyment from it other than to highlight the common 'emotional' tenor which the 'we' camp obviously uses to rebuke dissenting opinions.

None of the people i quoted need to take this deep into your soul... since i dont care enough about my observation other than i felt the need to share that unfortunate insight of the 'trending' here with you. Some of you actually did put thought into your response but should have generalized their response so as not to incite the type of anger which you might now be experiencing.

This by the way has nothing to do with the topic being discussed but its tenor.

[joepagiii]

well pipeline and the others you know the old saying about opinions.....and ive seen alot of those here both overly emotional and overly intellectual....just my 2 cents

[ldrn]

Doesn't that make you feel empty... like saying 'you love lamp' ? No wait that would be like defending the lamp when someone says it sucks.I <3 lamp. It's even better with two php AND perl (lampp). And I'm not ashamed to admit it!

[Benson]

Well i didnt expect the threatening pm from texrat...If this is a private dispute with Texrat, you might discuss it privately with him. If you intend to make it public, you might consider quoting it.

[pipeline]

ldrn you inspire me...

benson... no thanks to the bait. sorry if anyone took offense to my post.

[GeneralAntilles]

but the response here was expected...


When you willfully spew stupid, flame-fanning nonsense, you usually know what response to expect. ;) :)

[mullf]

Attack the individual(s) who speaks ill of any aspect/assessment about the 'community'?

I don't see anything in any of the quotes you cited that can remotely be considered an attack. :-/

[Aisu]

*cough cough* We're supposed to be talking about a software section here *cough* not bickering. Right? Although I do love to see Texrat and GA in action ;)

So, will we be able to upload stuff to Maemo.org from iTT, or is it just one way?

Uploading to Maemo.org, then simply syncing it here, no going back up the other way?

[pipeline]

When you willfully spew stupid, flame-fanning nonsense, you usually know what response to expect. ;) :)

You? ...to challenge me to for alpha status in that role? ;)

[Reggie]

So, will we be able to upload stuff to Maemo.org from iTT, or is it just one way?

Uploading to Maemo.org, then simply syncing it here, no going back up the other way?

It'll be one way only from Maemo to itT.

This thread is about to get closed btw if these attacks continue.

[krisse]

By "back" I don't mean that you were doing it more than once but that it had been done more than once and, well, there you were. :D

Ah well that's different. :)


Not trying to whip up the dead horse, though. I just think you were making an assumption about end users that may not be true. When I pull maemo.org up, I see Downloads very boldly displayed, and see NumptyPhysics highlighted. That's a good signal SOMEthing for end users is going on. ;)


YOU see that, but from my experience most non-techie end users would see things completely differently.

I agree that once you know what you're doing maemo.org's download section is very easy to find and use, and it's even more so if you go directly to it at maemo.org/downloads. That's why I regularly tell newbies about the site in the ITS tutorials.

However, most newbies will probably never see the ITS because Nokia doesn't really advertise it on any end user site. Their end user sites actually give maemo.org prominence, which doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me.

Imagine you know very little about computing. You enjoy using the web on your tablet, but you have no interest in software development. Then open up maemo.org.

Here's what you see:

-The mysterious name "maemo", which is not a name casual users would necessarily be familiar with, because it's not mentioned by the tablet interface at all. It's similar to Nokia's Symbian smartphones, no one knows they're Symbian because nothing in the phone uses that word.

-A menu at the top with options like SDK, Repositories, Documentation etc almost all of which lead to complicated technical pages. Downloads isn't complicated, but pretty much all of the other links are.

-Mysterious headlines like "Ogg Support on Canola2"

-Mysterious announcements like "Qt to be supported in addition to GTK+"

-An events list which consists entirely of programming conferences

-"Open Source Development" in enormous letters

-The site catchphrase "code in your hands"

Maemo.org is NOT a site which can be relied upon to tempt end users into the world of tablet applications. Relying on it reinforces the impression that the tablets are only intended for power users and hackers.

That's not criticism because maemo.org was never meant for end users, some other site should be doing that job.

We shouldn't be seeing maemo.org as a universal tablet site, it's meant for developers and hardcore users. Casual users should get their own official tablet community. If you try and combine the two into one site you'll end up with something that works for neither group.

What puzzles me is that Nokia hasn't put the same resources into a maemo end user site that they have into maemo developer sites. I've e-mailed them about this a fair amount with various suggestions but so far nothing has really happened.


So... is there a place on Internet Tablet School to inform your customers what's available at maemo?

I have done that many many times! :D

I even did a dedicated tutorial entirely devoted to maemo.org downloads in October 2007 (updated later to take account of OS2008):

http://tabletschool.blogspot.com/2007/10/nokia-n800-finding-and-installing-new.html

But like I said before, I doubt most casual or newbie tablet users ever see the Internet Tablet School because there's no path for them to find out about it.

The only Nokia sites which regularly promote the ITS on their front pages are maemo.org (for deveopers) and WOM World (for power users and journalists). Newbies are unlikely to even know about those sites.

In theory Tableteer has a link too, but it's buried away in a section poorly labelled "explore", and listed along with loads of other less newbie-oriented sites. And the PC version of Tableteer doesn't have any link to the ITS, though it does have a very prominent link to maemo.org.

[pa28pilot]

To clarify, I did not mean to attack any specific poster, nor have I ignored the syndication consensus that seems to only partially address the matters with which Reggie seemed initially concerned.

I do also find the strident resistance to ANY unique downloadable content showing up in ITt as a bit silly. That's my opinion, which which you're welcome to disagree.

My comment, which was admittedly crestfallen in tone, was just that, a general observation based on myriad experiences where extremely competent and well-meaning people demonstrate a subtle but profound misalignment in their interpretation of the underlying principles of a joint challenge.

I see, in re-reading the entire thread, obvious examples of people dismissing a variety of concerns, from what I suppose I'd call both sides of the discussion.

And yes, there are examples of people dismissing work that could serve the interests of end-users of varying degrees of sophistication as shiny or excessively hand-holding in nature. (I've spent real money paying human-factors people in the past. This stuff makes or breaks projects. If you haven't read Tufte, take a weekend, it'll change how you think about some of this stuff. )

(For the record, I have seen other people perhaps unappreciative of the time and effort that developers put in on their (often avocational) work, and dismissing the inconvenience that posting items in two places would likely pause them. We admittedly don't need disincentives to development, or "fragmentation" though I'm skeptical as to how horrible this instance really would be in the grand scheme of things. )

I have no desire to offend anyone, but an ivory tower developer mentality does not win mindshare, and I have little sympathy for people who wonder why their stellar technologies failed in a market after not meeting users on their own ground.


There's a post just above this one that is an excellent presentation of myriad subtle points; all of which when taken together demonstrate some real, constructive criticism as to why maemo.org's downloads section is not the be-all and end-all, no matter how well-intentioned it is. We disregard it at our own peril.

We can wish an end-user community to be different, but just as in any other venture where education and support are necessary, sometimes one must swallow the unpleasant pill (red in this case) in order to mollycoddle, coax and hand-hold people to lead them to a successful situation. It turns out that can even be fun, but not everyone is willing to do it.

I suppose I can sum the distinction up this way...

It's perfectly reasonable to ask someone to search the forums before asking a question, but it's a polite thing to give them the answer.

[Bundyo]

Lets kill the confusion then:

Maemo.org is and will be the developer site.

ITT and probably various other sites will be the end user sites which will use just the data from maemo.org to provide user friendly content.

Why all the bickering?

It's perfectly reasonable to ask someone to search the forums before asking a question, but it's a polite thing to give them the answer.

It's polite but quite tiresome. At the end noone will answer such questions anymore.

[Texrat]

Well i didnt expect the threatening pm from texrat... but the response here was expected....

LOL... well, since you made the private message public, here's the entirety of the PM just so others know how "threatening" it was:

"You're out of line."

That's it. The whole banana.

But we're even, pipeline-- I didn't expect you to wrongfully go off as you did in this thread, nor did I in my wildest dreams consider that you'd call the text above "threatening".

Now... can we get out of the nursery and back to big boy stuff?

:rolleyes:

EDIT: okay, pipeline, I apologize for whatever I did to make you feel threatened. That was not my intention.

[Texrat]

I do also find the strident resistance to ANY unique downloadable content showing up in ITt as a bit silly. That's my opinion, which which you're welcome to disagree.

There's the indication that you did indeed either speed-read or ignore some very critical posts here.

The general opposition was not to "ANY". That accusation is overly broad, and you insult many people here with such straw men.

I see by your posts that you're adept with words. Thus my surprise reaction to some of your conclusions. The dialog did not lead up to what you allege.

What went on here was typical in such situations, and there was nothing wrong with ANY of the contributions since, as you very aptly assert, they are all opinions. No one was coerced, bullied or censured in this natural process; people expressed all sorts of ideas and for the most part contributed toward a productive dialog. And in the end, the screaming stopped, the feathers settled back down, and it looked to me like we had indeed arrived at a reasonable solution that took ALL inputs into account.

So while you think the process was silly (:rolleyes:), I think coming in rudely at the end with your nonparticipatory analysis and unnecessarily restarting it in confrontational fashion is beyond silly. But hey-- that's just my opinion.

[pa28pilot]

There's the indication that you did indeed either speed-read or ignore some very critical posts here.

The general opposition was not to "ANY". That accusation is overly broad, and you insult many people here with such straw men.

You may characterize it differently, but in the aggregate, that was how it looked to me. The "let them eat cake and theme templates" position notwithstanding.


I see by your posts that you're adept with words. Thus my surprise reaction to some of your conclusions. The dialog did not lead up to what you allege.

There's no lack of articulate discourse with this group. There are clearly good folks here, with a wide range of expertise. I suppose that gave rise to my surprise at some of what I've seen.

As regards the dialog, that's an interesting belief, but not my experience.


What went on here was typical in such situations, and there was nothing wrong with ANY of the contributions since, as you very aptly assert, they are all opinions. No one was coerced, bullied or censured in this natural process; people expressed all sorts of ideas and for the most part contributed toward a productive dialog. And in the end, the screaming stopped, the feathers settled back down, and it looked to me like we had indeed arrived at a reasonable solution that took ALL inputs into account.

We arrived at a compromise, that does address some of the issues. Agreed.

I may be a little unusual in that I tend to ascribe serious ownership rights to people who take the time to operate useful discussion fora. I readily admit that while I think it's wonderful for them to solicit input, that in the end, they should be empowered to do what they see fit for the greatest good. When people begin suggesting that content not be included, I tend to become circumspect, as I think the market of ideas will decide in the end what the most useful venues are.


So while you think the process was silly (:rolleyes:), I think coming in rudely at the end with your nonparticipatory analysis and unnecessarily restarting it in confrontational fashion is beyond silly. But hey-- that's just my opinion.

I believe you may be rendering your opinion on an analysis I didn't make. I never said that the process was silly. It would seem that the strawmen are denizens of a number of places. :p

I support and respect the desire for a collaborative process, the integrity of the collective code base, sane workloads for developers, and growing evangelism for new users.

I stand by my assessment that this thread demonstrates some classic examples of technical group process that may not always serve the original goals, even in the face of settled consensus.

P.S. Texrat, you're clearly insightful about some of these matters, how about addressing the more substantive aspects of my last post? I'm all for being criticized, but I think Krisse's message is a perfect example of the sort of discussion that should take place BEFORE people make decisions.

[GeneralAntilles]

There's no lack of articulate discourse with this group. There are clearly good folks here, with a wide range of expertise. I suppose that gave rise to my surprise at some of what I've seen.


Perhaps your surprise stems from an incomplete understanding of the situation and context relevant to the issue?


We arrived at a compromise, that does address some of the issues. Agreed.


Again, I don't think you completely understand the issue here. The "compromise" we've arrived at solves the "issues" a helluva lot better and more effectively than the original implementation.


I may be a little unusual in that I tend to ascribe serious ownership rights to people who take the time to operate useful discussion fora. I readily admit that while I think it's wonderful for them to solicit input, that in the end, they should be empowered to do what they see fit for the greatest good. When people begin suggesting that content not be included, I tend to become circumspect, as I think the market of ideas will decide in the end what the most useful venues are.



P.S. Texrat, you're clearly insightful about some of these matters, how about addressing the more substantive aspects of my last post? I'm all for being criticized, but I think Krisse's message is a perfect example of the sort of discussion that should take place BEFORE people make decisions.

So which is it, forum owners should do whatever the hell they want, effects on the community be damned, or we should have a substantive discussion of the issue before they do that?

[Texrat]

I'm actually pretty much done debating, so, I'm reluctant to address any more points, sorry... it's been done ad nauseum. The horse is now a rug.

In the end, it really doesn't matter what any of us says-- ultimately, any final decision is Reggie's.

At that point, everything else is just noise. Including this post.

;)

EDIT: but just so we're clear-- you're still mischaracterizing the content issue. That's one reason I don't want to debate it any longer... when a participant refuses to consider that he has constructed his argument upon an error, any efforts after the first to illustrate that become futile.

Besides, if Reggie disallowed suggestions, as you *appear* to believe should be done (I'm not really clear there, because you seem to want some of us to shut up, but then declare discussion should take place before decisions are made), then the forum would die soon if not immediately afterward. Input is good. Disagreement is good. Without it, we have groupthink, and groupthink=death.

Oh, and welcome to Linux.

[krisse]

I'm actually pretty much done debating, so, I'm reluctant to address any more points, sorry... it's been done ad nauseum. The horse is now a rug.

In the end, it really doesn't matter what any of us says-- ultimately, any final decision is Reggie's.

At that point, everything else is just noise. Including this post.



EDIT: but just so we're clear--


...famous last words. :D

[Texrat]

...famous last words. :D

LOL... I have this stupid desire to make sure what I say is understood. It will be my downfall. :D

[pa28pilot]

Again, I don't think you completely understand the issue here. The "compromise" we've arrived at solves the "issues" a helluva lot better and more effectively than the original implementation.

I know you don't. That's clear. I'm not going to ascribe laziness or a lack of diligence to anyone as you and Texrat have, so I'll simply say that the entire matter is fraught with meta-considerations. People can choose to find them or not, as they see fit.


So which is it, forum owners should do whatever the hell they want, effects on the community be damned, or we should have a substantive discussion of the issue before they do that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma - Interesting reading, though not quite as pithy as your closing.

[pa28pilot]

LOL... I have this stupid desire to make sure what I say is understood. It will be my downfall. :D

Nah. That's the curse of self-awareness. Just know the world is made easy for those not cursed with it. :)

I thanked you for your message above, because there was no I-cracked-up-laughing-at-your-"Welcome to Linux" button.

[Texrat]

The "welcome to Linux" was my own pithy contribution. Read it as only slightly less than sarcastic. ;)

[joepagiii]

so to recap.....ill not reiterate my earlier post....ya know about opinions...

[Texrat]

We were apparently short on drama.

I suggest we syndicate some from slashdot.

[GeneralAntilles]

We were apparently short on drama.

I suggest we syndicate some from slashdot.

But Slashdot drama is so impersonal and one dimensional. . . .

[ldrn]

The earlier "no thanks" suggestion should be expanded to include "insightful", "funny", "flamebait" and the like, then. :)

[geneven]

Anyway... Maemo often seems like it's on the other side of the moon. I've seen weeks in which Maemo seemed to be down and totally disfunctional, and our complaints over here were ignored, judging by the public responses to them (I'm sure that nonpublically, Maemo was scrambling, slowly). And the few programmers who were over here, asking for feedback and promoting their programs, were a rare minority. Here's hoping that the new arrangement produces the kind of cooperative relationship between users and makers that oughta be the way it is.

[Benson]

The horse is now a rug.Win.
Oh, and welcome to Linux.Double-win.