"Fixed in Fremantle"

[pixelseventy2]

Is anyone else getting as annoyed by the constant "fixed in fremantle" comments on bugzilla? OK, it's great that things are getting fixed, but that doesn't help us now, does it?

We don't have a real ETA on fremantle, and we don't enough know for definite if it will be ported to the n800/n810. Best guesses are talking Q2 next year, so best case we're looking at 4 months to see these fixes. In some respects, that's even more annoying than not fixing bugs; at least if things aren't going to be fixed officially you can start to look for alternatives.

The HTC Touch HD is here already, with a screen almost as good as the nokia's, 3G, GPS, etc... OK, so there's no hardware keyboard, and it runs winmo, but at least it's here now.

I love my n800, but I really want an update ...

</rant>

[Bundyo]

You rather prefer Fremantle's part of Bugzilla to be closed?

[pixelseventy2]

Not really. TBH, I'm just fed up with receiving emails saying somethings fixed, getting all excited, then finding out I'm going to have to wait another 4+ months to see the fix. If we get to see them at all.

[tso]

i guess a lot of users are happy with their tablet, hardware-wise, byt want to see some software issues fixed.

with the recent economic events, and the lack of info about what hardware fremantle will run on, one wonders if said problems will only be fixed by buying a whole new tablet. something one may not be able to afford...

[pixelseventy2]

Like TSO said, my n800 does what I want from a hardware perspective, it just needs a few minor fixes. Like this one (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3691).

Although I do want a shiny new toy, but then I'm a geek, so I always want a new toy :p

[pixelseventy2]

Because we are developing Maemo 5 with an UI and application framework that uses Clutter-based hardware graphics acceleration, it is not trivial to make the same code run on devices that do not have hardware-based graphics acceleration.

Just saw this on this (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25221) thread. That more or less confirms that we won't be getting fremantle back-ported, and so won't be getting the bug-fixes back-ported. 770 all over again?

At least with microsoft/apple you know that they're going to shaft you up-front (not that I'd EVER buy an apple product).

[fpp]

Déjà vu... the same thing happened to OS2006 bugs on the 770 when the N800 and OS2007 came out.

This is 770-land all over again.

To illustrate, below is a question I posted to the Maemo ML last October about Diablo on the 770 as an update to OS2008HE. And Quim Gil's anwser, which was forthcoming and honest.

I think it's clear where we're headed with the N8x0 generation and Fremantle.


> > On Oct 27, 2008, at 7:27 PM, Urivan Saaib wrote:
>> >> I've been playing with Diablo on my n770 for several months. It has
>> >> been
>> >> fairly stable.
> >
> > No, you've been playing with Chinook. Diablo is not available for the
> > 770.

Well, this is a question I've meant to ask Quim for a while now, so here
is my opportunity. I've asked it here before without an answer, but some
threads on ITT have brought it back to light recently.

Despite the disparaging remarks by the Maemo team when OS2008HE came out
("end-of-the-line", "too much for the poor beast" etc.), quite a few
people (including me) are satisfied with it breathing a new life into
their old 770. Maemo Mapper in particular, a rare example of commitment
to maintaining a native maemo app on all NIT platforms, works just fine
on it.

The problem we are having now is that some recent apps, or their Diablo
upgrades, fail to install or run, although they could be really useful
on a home-bound 770 : to name a few, Canola, Maemo remote (which also
uses EFL), or liqbase...

So, before the Fremantle wave definitely buries the 770 platform (and
maybe the N8x0 too), it would be really good to see a final update
bringing the main Diablo improvements to OS2008HE, so that it can still
run the latest relevant apps.

Is there any chance this will happen ?


Not from Nokia's side. We rather invest our time in
http://wiki.maemo.org/Objective:Maemo_variants so whoever can come up
with customized editions at will.

Anybody interested in this objective (and removing the obstacles in the
way) please propose specific tasks and file specific bugs/requests.

About the rest of the thread, how useful is it to discuss before Nokia
publishes the maemo 5 API and announces a product shipping it? Enjoy
your current devices! Fremantle is not even in alpha. The N810 WiMAX
edition just started the sales few days ago (running the very same
software inside). No matter what happens with Fremantle the N800/N810
users are going to benefit from this.

-- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia

[GeneralAntilles]

Is anyone else getting as annoyed by the constant "fixed in fremantle" comments on bugzilla? OK, it's great that things are getting fixed, but that doesn't help us now, does it?


This discussion just can't seem to die. Each release has a lifetime, eventually you have to move on to the next release. All software companies do this, just be happy that Nokia is open enough for you to find out about bugfixes 6 months before a release. . . .


We don't have a real ETA on fremantle, and we don't enough know for definite if it will be ported to the n800/n810. Best guesses are talking Q2 next year, so best case we're looking at 4 months to see these fixes.

Really, honestly, it doesn't matter as much as everybody seems to think it will if Nokia provides an official release for OMAP2 hardware. Fremantle is significantly more open in practically every respect than Diablo, and this will make it much easier to put together a community backport. Either way, let's get a little closer to the real thing before we decide that it will or it wont be released based on incomplete information. . . .

You would prefer they pull an exact date out of thin air, then meet that whether or not the software is ready? Or not meet it at all and just keep pushing it back? It's pretty clear from the SDK timeline approximately when it'll be released: Summer 2009.


In some respects, that's even more annoying than not fixing bugs; at least if things aren't going to be fixed officially you can start to look for alternatives.


Hardly, I don't know how long you've been involved in the Bugzilla game, but not getting a reply at all (which is typically how it worked) is way more irritating.


The HTC Touch HD is here already, with a screen almost as good as the nokia's, 3G, GPS, etc... OK, so there's no hardware keyboard, and it runs winmo, but at least it's here now.


Sure, but it isn't using a Cortex A8, just another slow ARM11.

[GeneralAntilles]

At least with microsoft/apple you know that they're going to shaft you up-front (not that I'd EVER buy an apple product).

Don't compare the desktop market to the embedded one, they aren't even remotely similar (do you get OS upgrades with WinMob or Palm? . . .). Let's see what Apple does when they actually have a generational upgrade that's more than just slapping a GPS and a 3G modem on a generation 1 iPhone. . . .

[pixelseventy2]

I don't know how long you've been involved in the Bugzilla game, but not getting a reply at all (which is typically how it worked) is way more irritating.
Personally, I find being told that something is fixed but I can't have it more annoying than being told nothing. Ignorance is bliss, after all.

Sure, but it isn't using a Cortex A8, just another slow ARM11. I've not had any major speed complaints about the my n800, so that's not much of an issue. Reading email, playing mp3s and browsing a few websites doesn't require much power.

[BoxOfSnoo]

Yeah, I kinda thought open source would be more... you know... open.

(Here's where someone points me to the unusable Fremantle source...)

I was intrigued by the Mer reference the other day... http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Reconstructed It sounds waaaaay more interesting and useful than Paymantle.

[pixelseventy2]

Don't compare the desktop market to the embedded one, they aren't even remotely similar (do you get OS upgrades with WinMob or Palm? . . .). Let's see what Apple does when they actually have a generational upgrade that's more than just slapping a GPS and a 3G modem on a generation 1 iPhone. . . .

Who said anything about the desktop market? I ran winmo devices for about 3 years before I moved to maemo, partially in a desire to move away from the MS way of doing things. And yes, you do get OS upgrades for winmo, my Motorola Q9 has been upgraded (officially) from winmo 5 to 6, then to 6.1

[lcuk]

fpp,

if i had a 770 in my hands I would do my best to get liqbase working on it.
I simply cannot fly blind and do not know what problems need overcoming.
(though I do have a runlog someone sent me, but its still not quite the same)

[eliagp]

at least they shouldn't close the bugs. if they wanna put freematle and be done, ok. but only close them when there is ACTUALLY a Freemantle.

[GeneralAntilles]

Yeah, I kinda thought open source would be more... you know... open.


Open doesn't have anything to do with officially supporting certain hardware. What open does do is enable the community to step up and provide that support.


(Here's where someone points me to the unusable Fremantle source...)


Same place as the Diablo sources.


I was intrigued by the Mer reference the other day... http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Reconstructed It sounds waaaaay more interesting and useful than Paymantle.

Paymantle . . . clever. Mer is actually using a lot of the current Fremantle sources.

My own vision is to use Mer as a base for a Fremantle backport to OMAP2 hardware, and why would that even be possible? Because of Nokia's openness.

[qole]

We know that there will be OpenGL acceleration in Fremantle. We also know that we have no drivers for our graphics hardware (PowerVR).

If we want a backport, the community really needs to be working on an optimized software OpenGL renderer for our devices, in order to be ready for the community backport that will be required next spring. I know we could squeeze better performance out of the Mesa software renderer, it just requires some low-level programmer types to get in there and make it happen.

I've said it before; the liqbase speed hacks would probably really help us here.

[BoxOfSnoo]

At least with microsoft/apple you know that they're going to shaft you up-front (not that I'd EVER buy an apple product).

Apple supports their OS on their hardware for quite a long time, you know. Leopard works on old PPC Macs from around 2002 (and can be hacked on to older ones). I don't know what kinda shaft you're talking about...

[pixelseventy2]

All this talk about the community back-porting fremantle doesn't help with the fact that nokia/maemo are closing bugs raised against chinook/diablo as fixed, when they are only fixed in firmware that won't be available on the hardware of the reporter.

"We've fixed the problem with your car, you just need to buy a new car to get the fix"

[lcuk]

yes qole, we need something.
but neither I nor qwerty could get a fully buildable opengl stack together to start hacking from.
I managed to get the binaries up and running, but that really doesn't help.

[pixelseventy2]

Apple supports their OS on their hardware for quite a long time, you know. Leopard works on old PPC Macs from around 2002 (and can be hacked on to older ones). I don't know what kinda shaft you're talking about...

Having to use Mac OS in the first place isn't being shafted enough? The way Jobs treats the fan-boys (who lap it up) looks like a good, hard shafting to me.

[BoxOfSnoo]

Open doesn't have anything to do with officially supporting certain hardware. What open does do is enable the community to step up and provide that support.


Support for... what? Software they can't get for 6 months? We work to pinpoint and file bugs... only to not be able to reap the benefits of the work...? Open should work two ways but it seems more like a suggestion dropbox. I guess I was kinda expecting a Debian-style instant gratification thing, with official releases being nice but unnecessary.


My own vision is to use Mer as a base for a Fremantle backport to OMAP2 hardware, and why would that even be possible? Because of Nokia's openness.

Of course backport implies that it's second-class. Sure it's lower end hardware with less capabilities, but we like the hardware (except the camera of course! :) ). The screen is great, the mic is great, CPU is fine, wifi is very good, battery life awesome. It's software that's too often half-baked.

I know they're more open than most, and it has its advantages, but at the end of the day, we know the current gen devices are more and more likely to be orphaned the longer the release delays. Perfectly good hardware!

I was interested in Mer because it takes the power out of the Nokia camp and puts most of it in the Debian camp. They have been through this open thing already. They know how to make it work.

[BoxOfSnoo]

Having to use Mac OS in the first place isn't being shafted enough? The way Jobs treats the fan-boys (who lap it up) looks like a good, hard shafting to me.

Wowww someone's brain's been washed real good! :D

[pixelseventy2]

Wowww someone's brain's been washed real good! :D

I've had an anti-apple bug up my *** since I did graphics at uni, and they forced the crappy macs on us, with it's stupid, patronising OS. Sorry.

Besides, mac bashing is just fun :p

[pixelseventy2]

why did the forum *** out my a-s-s?

[tso]

in the end nokia is in this to sell hardware. and right now the market for tablets are being overrun by ipod touch and the oncoming mid's.

what irks tho is the thought that thhe software devs have fixes ready, maybe some thats easy to implement in diablo, but they seem to besitting on them rather then push them out by ssu because nokia management wants the focus directed towards the next hardware series.

things just go "fixed in fremantle" with no indication on how trivial or complex the fix may be.

aat times one may have gotten more info by tossing the report into a black hole...

[tso]

why did the forum *** out my a-s-s?

prudish americans?

[qole]

why did the forum *** out my a-s-s?

prudish americans?

Americans hate donkeys.

EDIT: On the other hand, you can talk about your ARSE as much as you want.

And Now For An Etymology Lesson (http://www.answers.com/topic/arse-1):

Until the late 18th century, "***" presumably had no profane meaning, and simply referred to the animal now mostly called donkey. Because of the increasingly non-rhotic nature of standard British English, "arse" was often rendered "***". However indirect evidence of the change from arse to *** traces back to 1785 (in euphemistic avoidance of *** "donkey" by polite speakers) and perhaps to Shakespeare, if Nick Bottom transformed into a donkey in "A Midsummer Night's Dream" (1594) is such a word-play. This usage was also adopted in America, which is why the word "arse" is not usually used in the United States. The age of Victorian propriety resulted in the renaming of the horse-like animal, changing the name to "donkey" (not recorded in English before 1785, slang, perhaps from dun "dull grey-brown," the form perhaps influenced by monkey, or possibly from a familiar form of Duncan, cf. dobbin) to avoid any improper inferences. Although before World War I they were similar, the English pronunciations of "***" /æs/ and "arse" /ɑːs/ are now quite different apart from in American English speaking countries, although arse is commonly used in Atlantic Canada, west of the Ottawa river, *** is more idiomatic.

[qole]

yes qole, we need something.
but neither I nor qwerty could get a fully buildable opengl stack together to start hacking from.
I managed to get the binaries up and running, but that really doesn't help.

You have to remember that you're going to be releasing this under Fremantle, so you should be using that set of libraries as much as possible. We'll probably have to run it in a chroot in Diablo.

[fpp]

fpp,
if i had a 770 in my hands I would do my best to get liqbase working on it.
I simply cannot fly blind and do not know what problems need overcoming.
(though I do have a runlog someone sent me, but its still not quite the same)
Yes Gary, I know you're that dedicated, and it's good of you. But there are few others like you (John Costigan and the Canola team and maybe a couple more).

If OS2008HE were updated to match Diablo, pretty much *all* current apps would run on the 770 without their authors having to worry about it or even care. I think that would be a much saner situation.

[benny1967]

All this talk about the community back-porting fremantle doesn't help with the fact that nokia/maemo are closing bugs raised against chinook/diablo as fixed, when they are only fixed in firmware that won't be available on the hardware of the reporter.

"We've fixed the problem with your car, you just need to buy a new car to get the fix"

This is exactly the point. What they say by "fixed in Fremantle" is something like "No, we won't fix it, because this part will be replaced anyway on a different OS and we guess it'll probably work there. We won't spend any more time fixing the bug you have meanwhile."

The Right Thing to do would be to close these bugs as WONTFIX, because they're about Diablo and will not be fixed for Diablo.

There's not one single bug about Fremantle, so it's not logical to close them for Fremantle.

[luca]

You would prefer they pull an exact date out of thin air, then meet that whether or not the software is ready? Or not meet it at all and just keep pushing it back? It's pretty clear from the SDK timeline approximately when it'll be released: Summer 2009.


I'd actually prefer updated packages for diablo, since they have the fixes available now

[ragnar]

This is exactly the point. What they say by "fixed in Fremantle" is something like "No, we won't fix it, because this part will be replaced anyway on a different OS and we guess it'll probably work there. We won't spend any more time fixing the bug you have meanwhile."

The Right Thing to do would be to close these bugs as WONTFIX, because they're about Diablo and will not be fixed for Diablo.

There's not one single bug about Fremantle, so it's not logical to close them for Fremantle.

Hi. I've been going around the public bugzilla for the last couple of days, wontfixing/assigning a bunch of bugs for Fremantle - I'll try to do more if I have the time - so perhaps I should also comment here.

Yes, assigned for Fremantle also means wontfix for Diablo, unless it's absolutely system critical. Yes, in many cases the fix in Fremantle is caused by Fremantle doing something different than Diablo, so on some cases it is hard to say between fixed and wontfix. I tried to do those judgments based on the whether the user need/feature in question that the bug addresses will be improved in Fremantle or now.

If the general consensus really is that it would be better for me to just set "Wontfix -> Diablo" instead of indicating that if the issues will be addressed in Fremantle (or in Harmattan) in some cases, please then comment. I personally assumed that it's of some ... aid to know that the issue in question will eventually get addressed or not, even though not in terms of a new Diablo release.

[Stskeeps]

O
Paymantle . . . clever. Mer is actually using a lot of the current Fremantle sources.

My own vision is to use Mer as a base for a Fremantle backport to OMAP2 hardware, and why would that even be possible? Because of Nokia's openness.

Since some people are speaking of Mer here, I'd like to do a little advertising:

http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint#Contributing_to_Mer

[benny1967]

If the general consensus really is that it would be better for me to just set "Wontfix -> Diablo" instead of indicating that if the issues will be addressed in Fremantle (or in Harmattan) in some cases, please then comment. I personally assumed that it's of some ... aid to know that the issue in question will eventually get addressed or not, even though not in terms of a new Diablo release.

Yes, of course it's somehow nice to know Fremantle will fix it. Better than nothing to hope for at all. ;)

Still, this can be communicated in the comment when closing the bug.

See, when I actually *read* the bug, the information is the same, no matter which status you use for closing it. I read the last comments and see what's going on.
The point is that when I only follow things via the bugjar for example, I'm always happy how many bugs are being fixed lately and how wonderful and great the next SSU for Diablo will be... until I find out.
So for these kind of things WONTFIX is more useful; you can click and read why it won't be fixed and then there'll be a comment saying the situation will improve with Fremantle.

As a side note, I find this admittedly small issue so irritating partly because what actually bugs me is

the fact that it will not be closed for Diablo (which I don't quite understand) and
the growing suspicion that I'll never see Fremantle on my N800.

I had all this before with my 770, and now history might be repeating itself. My head tells me this time maybe there are very good reasons for it (which I still can't see for the 770-disaster), but my heart says it's just not fair and I want my share of happiness here and now. So I just keep whining about everything that's remotely connected to this whole backward compatibility thing...

[fpp]

Hmm, so that's two of us diehards. How comforting :-)

[tso]

i guess that if we could agree that the "fixed in fremantle" tag would only be used on bugs that come out of a ground up rewrite that would require solid efforts to get working on diablo, then things would calm down.

basically, the community is not told the context of the fix, and is left wonder if it was a simple one liner or some kind of whole-sale replacement of the problematic system.

[GeneralAntilles]

So for these kind of things WONTFIX is more useful; you can click and read why it won't be fixed and then there'll be a comment saying the situation will improve with Fremantle.


No, because that's not how Bugzilla works. Now, please, stop trying to make everybody's lives more difficult by breaking the system, thanks.

[TA-t3]

As to the argument about "embedded" vs. "desktop", I absolutely don't buy it. There's nothing conceptually different between my laptop running Debian and my N800 running, for all practical purposes, a Debian derivative.

The NIT series are not embedded devices by any definition, period. Some drivers are closed, but that doesn't make it embedded - if so my desktop computer would be an embedded device, with its NVIDIA graphical driver.

So yes, I expect a software update regime quite similar to a desktop system update regime, and not an embedded update regime.

[GeneralAntilles]

As to the argument about "embedded" vs. "desktop", I absolutely don't buy it. There's nothing conceptually different between my laptop running Debian and my N800 running, for all practical purposes, a Debian derivative.


Then you seriously don't understand the platform. :)

Ask the Deblet guys exactly how much of a difference there is (I'd start with: "How many hours idle battery life do you get?").

[tso]

so maybe laptop rather then desktop ;)

anyways, i had a look at the number of bugs with milestone fremantle.

and the ones that i found most puzzling was the ones that looked like simple ui tweaks, like the size of dialog windows and so on.

these are bumped on to fremantle with no clear explanation why, unlike something like media player being able to remember where in a file it was closed, where the fremantle message holds a explanation as to why it was moved (rework of the media framework or something similar).

[TA-t3]

Then you seriously don't understand the platform. :)

Seriously. I do.


Ask the Deblet guys exactly how much of a difference there is (I'd start with: "How many hours idle battery life do you get?").
Oh come on now. That's got _nothing_ to do with the way fixes are distributed. It's got everything to do with features of the kernel, drivers and some other software.

That Nokia uses a software update model ("push everything to a full future release, unless it's a fatal problem") is simply a choice of theirs, presumably because they're _used_ to that kind of model. Phones _are_ embedded devices.

There's nothing much different from Nokia's software and 3party software, except that Nokia's software tend to be closed. The 3party developers don't seem to have any problems whatsoever to follow a perfectly normal model (normal for desktop systems, that is) of providing fixes and updates all the time, not pushing to some future major release.

[pixelseventy2]

No, because that's not how Bugzilla works. Now, please, stop trying to make everybody's lives more difficult by breaking the system, thanks.

if I log a software bug on my n800, and you tell me that it will be fixed if I buy an n900, then you ARE NOT fixing that bug for ME.

[Johnx]

Well there's embedded in a marketing/product sense and embedded in a technical sense. From a technical point of view, talking about "embedded linux" is somewhat different than talking about most embedded operating systems that are designed to never be upgraded and live most of their lives running one application. From a marketing point-of-view the software is "embedded" into the hardware and those two things combined form the "product." In that sense this is different than your laptop, because the OS is not some separate product (note: it's even a separate product on Macs, since you can buy it separately from the computer).

And this brings me to my final thought of the day: Never expect a company to do *anything* for you after you make a purchase, except honor their warranty. Think like this and you'll never be disappointed.

Now, that said, I will be cranky with Nokia if they integrate hardware-3D-dependent libraries in such a way that makes it impossible to write applications that work on both fremantle and whatever part of fremantle can be made to run on the n8x0 or other devices without hardware 3D.

[Boke]

I'm also really upset by the way the bugs are closed. At least a WONTFIX would be more honest.

This way of closing bugs leads us to another problem. I just received this:
roope.rainisto@nokia.com changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CC| |roope.rainisto@nokia.com
Status|NEW |RESOLVED
Resolution| |FIXED
Target Milestone|--- |Fremantle




------- Comment #2 from roope.rainisto@nokia.com 2008-11-28 15:13 GMT+3 -------
Contacts application will be redesigned in Fremantle.


Ok, so it means
1) contacts application on my N8x0 will never be fixed. Sad, but I can deal with it.
2) I have no way to know if the contacts application is really fixed or if it'll come with some other design flaws. I mean, when you fix something you explain or show what you improved, else it's not fixed, it's maybe fixed.
3) We recently seen the bug of the GPS closed as fixed by nokia after the addition of AGPS-beta. We had to whine to have it reopened because AGPS clearly does not fix everything. If the "Fixed in Fremantle" fixes are the same kind of fixes, I really worry for Maemo.

And as long as nothing about these fixes is shown, I really don't understand how you can close the bugs.
The "Fixed in Fremantle" should appear when Fremantle is released, before, for me, nothing is fixed.

/rant too.

[ragnar]

I'm also really upset by the way the bugs are closed. At least a WONTFIX would be more honest.

This way of closing bugs leads us to another problem. I just received this:

Ok, so it means
1) contacts application on my N8x0 will never be fixed. Sad, but I can deal with it.
2) I have no way to know if the contacts application is really fixed or if it'll come with some other design flaws. I mean, when you fix something you explain or show what you improved, else it's not fixed, it's maybe fixed.
3) We recently seen the bug of the GPS closed as fixed by nokia after the addition of AGPS-beta. We had to whine to have it reopened because AGPS clearly does not fix everything. If the "Fixed in Fremantle" fixes are the same kind of fixes, I really worry for Maemo.

And as long as nothing about these fixes is shown, I really don't understand how you can close the bugs.
The "Fixed in Fremantle" should appear when Fremantle is released, before, for me, nothing is fixed.

/rant too.

Hi. Since I was the one commenting on this bug, I'll comment also here:

For 2) and 3), "design flaws" is a very subjective statement. What one person thinks is good design another one thinks to be a flaw. In other words, there will always be design flaws, and every time a design is changed, some think it will be better, and others will think it will be worse. No change we do will ever fix everything. Fremantle will have an improved version of the application, it tries to address some of the failings of the previous design as well as hit some new targets. It won't be perfect, nothing is. I'm 100% sure people will find new bugs once Fremantle gets released, and that's all good.

Anyway, the bugs are not closed when setting Fixed in bugzilla. The next step from Fixed is to the bug reporter to check it - once this is possible - then either to Reopen the bug or then Verify it. Only then bugs are closed.

[Boke]

Hi. Since I was the one commenting on this bug, I'll comment also here:

For 2) and 3), "design flaws" is a very subjective statement. What one person thinks is good design another one thinks to be a flaw. In other words, there will always be design flaws, and every time a design is changed, some think it will be better, and others will think it will be worse. No change we do will ever fix everything.
I used this one as an example and since the bug was talking about the UI I talked about the design flaws for this one. I know that nothing is flawless, but I don't even know here if the bug we're talking about is properly fixed, unless I trust you blindly.
I'm ok if it's a won't fix in diablo and you fix it in fremantle, but if it's fixed, I'd like to know how it's fixed.
I know you've got an NDA on it so you can't comment much, but then, what's the point of marking it as fixed?

Fremantle will have an improved version of the application, it tries to address some of the failings of the previous design as well as hit some new targets. It won't be perfect, nothing is. I'm 100% sure people will find new bugs once Fremantle gets released, and that's all good.

Anyway, the bugs are not closed when setting Fixed in bugzilla. The next step from Fixed is to the bug reporter to check it - once this is possible - then either to Reopen the bug or then Verify it. Only then bugs are closed.

I like to see Bugzilla as a collaborative tool shared by developpers and users to exchange their views on some software.
Marking bugs as RESOLVED without telling anyone what you did to resolve it doesn't seem much interesting to me. Now the bug is not in the OPEN state anymore. So noone is supposed to be working on it anymore, while it's not fixed in Diablo. And noone will bother working on it, since there is a fix, in Fremantle.

I don't know... maybe it's a massive bug hunt that nokia is doing... but I don't get the point of it.

[qgil]

I believe what we offer is near the best we can offer, considering all the conditions:

- Development needs to be focused in new releases because you want Maemo to be the great platform out there. There is a tough competition, high user expectations and little room between the Best and the Rest. People upset with 'wontfix in Diablo' would be even more upset if the whole Maemo project failed. A lot of the success/failure is decided on the battles you choose and the resources you put on each.

- Those saying "I want this fix in Diablo" actually want to say "I want this fix in my device". The goal is to bring the Fremantle fixes to your devices, then.

- Forget the PC/embedded dilemma. This is about x86/ARM, the adaptation required between OMAP versions and other hardware interfaces, the unstability of the mobile UI paradigms, the speed to market to bring the new stuff to real customers as soon as possible.

- Sure, some companies offer updates for their desktop software and they work a lot on compatibility. They also charge nice fees for the updates that, together with the volumes they have, convert compatibility into a business instead of a cost. As for today the Maemo business case is very different.

- Sure, the same companies provide also updates on their mobile OS and actually mostly "for free"... But their products are tied to smartphones and operator contracts. Have no doubt customers end up paying in one way or another for those updates as well. Again, as for today the Maemo business case is different.

In the meantime, my partner (read: a regular user) is mostly happy with the N810 and she hasn't updated at all because she doesn't feel an urgent need to do so.

Most users filing bugs and posting in threads like this one do care about fixes, new features and updates. You will have Fremantle in your hands, that's your real objective.

[BoxOfSnoo]

And this brings me to my final thought of the day: Never expect a company to do *anything* for you after you make a purchase, except honor their warranty. Think like this and you'll never be disappointed.

Oh but we will. In a traditional closed-dev cycle, you can be pretty sure that the company is going to squeeze all the "value-add" out of a platform that was probably fairly expensive to develop in the first place.

(I guess the phone manufacturers are maybe the only exception to this rule, since they seem to dump their own products as soon as they can.)

We're actually expecting companies to do something for *themselves*. They have a real opportunity here with an open platform, and just don't seem to be noticing it.

[benny1967]

OK, I know I was told to shut up and get lost, but I can't resist this one:
In the meantime, my partner (read: a regular user) is mostly happy with the N810 and she hasn't updated at all because she doesn't feel an urgent need to do so.
Don't you find this deeply disturbing? :D

[BoxOfSnoo]

Quim, there's this nifty organization out there called Debian. You should look it up someday.

Seriously, talk to them, they're doing all this stuff much better than you are - BECAUSE they've been through the whole iterative development, compatibility, testing, FREE (libre) releases for what, 15 years now? They know what doesn't work.

Please don't reinvent the wheel, or even pretend you're the first down this road.

[qgil]

I'm ok if it's a won't fix in diablo and you fix it in fremantle, but if it's fixed, I'd like to know how it's fixed.

Then we should either release earlier (we are progressing on this) or discuss the bug later (which couldn't be worst in the past).

I know you've got an NDA on it so you can't comment much, but then, what's the point of marking it as fixed?

It's a way to show progress and discuss/concentrate on new things. A way to bypass that NDA. You don't know the energy it takes for people like ragnar or me to go through these things being able to mark as fixed/wontfix things that belong to unreleased releases.

Also by resolving bugs/requests we liberate votes that can be used to promote another bugs/requests undecided at the moment.


I like to see Bugzilla as a collaborative tool shared by developpers and users to exchange their views on some software.

Yes, I'm also advocating on this approach. For this to happen there must be a different expectation on what is open source and what is not, though. Demand explanations in whatever is open and let's move forward using the minimal extra energy in the rest.



Marking bugs as RESOLVED without telling anyone what you did to resolve it doesn't seem much interesting to me. Now the bug is not in the OPEN state anymore. So noone is supposed to be working on it anymore, while it's not fixed in Diablo. And noone will bother working on it, since there is a fix, in Fremantle.

As agreed with the Bugsquad team, bugs fixed means that there is code available (now internally, out soon). That code might be alpha, so there is still a lot of work to be done around it. Feature requests are resolved once they are roadmapped for a specific release, which means that they will happen (unless something weird happens) but most/all the work still needs to be done. This week I have ben resolving as fixed feature requests targeting Harmattan already. I think the information is useful.

I don't know... maybe it's a massive bug hunt that nokia is doing... but I don't get the point of it.[/QUOTE]

[Boke]

Just try to go toany other bugzilla outthere and mark a bug as resolved with the comment "Fixed in my branch" without providing any patch or info, and see the reaction.

It's basically the same here.

Quim, you're right when you say our objective is to get Fremantle in our hands, but you're wrong thinking that the way you bring it to us is even near the best one. If you don't want to work with bugzilla and hide everything until the release, just don't use bugzilla. If you want to work colaboratively with users and use bugzilla, you'd have to do it another way.

By the way, it's nice to see you working so hard on Fremantle.

[EIPI]

I believe what we offer is near the best we can offer, considering all the conditions:

...

- Those saying "I want this fix in Diablo" actually want to say "I want this fix in my device". The goal is to bring the Fremantle fixes to your devices, then.

...

Most users filing bugs and posting in threads like this one do care about fixes, new features and updates. You will have Fremantle in your hands, that's your real objective.

Thank you for this reply, Quim. I look forward to any incarnation of Fremantle (community- or Nokia- sponsored) that makes it to my N800.

Quim, there's this nifty organization out there called Debian. You should look it up someday.

I'm pretty sure Quim knows about Debian, since our OS's are Debian-based (last time I checked anyways) :)

[TA-t3]

Just for the record: Even though I'm arguing for updates, there are updates and then there are updates.. I don't think it's fair to include things like agps/gps into the discussion, the gps situation is clearly hampered by substandard hardware and we can't complain if those kind of problems are moved forward to next gen. hardware+software.

[qgil]

Quim, there's this nifty organization out there called Debian. You should look it up someday.

Thanks for the pointer. I became a Debian user in 2002. Nokia hired the first Debian maintainers to work on Maemo by 2005 or before.

Seriously, talk to them, they're doing all this stuff much better than you are - BECAUSE they've been through the whole iterative development, compatibility, testing, FREE (libre) releases for what, 15 years now? They know what doesn't work.

Debian can delay a release until they think it's ready (and compatibility plays a big role on that). Maemo cannot have such delays (and compatibility is one of the aspects that suffers).

Besides, Debian doesn't have to deal with any UI optimized for consumer mobile devices. The main options you have is Hildon (developed by Nokia) and perhaps something related to Qt (developed by the company that acquired Trolltech).

Please don't reinvent the wheel, or even pretend you're the first down this road.

Who reinvented or pretended anything?

Pretending that those wheels are just enough to move this mobile platform is not very useful. At least not for us. Debian has many merits and Nokia is supporting them to have more merits in this new mobile space as well.

[Boke]

It's a way to show progress and discuss/concentrate on new things. A way to bypass that NDA. You don't know the energy it takes for people like ragnar or me to go through these things being able to mark as fixed/wontfix things that belong to unreleased releases.


Actually, no, I don't know how much energy it takes. But I understood it was not easy. I wish you don't take my comments personally as I really appreciate that you're posting on this forum and using the bugzilla. It's more a rant about why it takes you so much energy while us users are only willing to help.

[GeneralAntilles]

If you don't want to work with bugzilla and hide everything until the release, just don't use bugzilla.


You weren't there for the two years they did that were you? :rolleyes: Please, just stop talking.

[BoxOfSnoo]

I'm pretty sure Quim knows about Debian, since our OS's are Debian-based (last time I checked anyways) :)

Yeah I don't mean the software, I mean the *process*. In Debian, releases are nice but not critical, since you can always track a testing branch (extras is kind of a half release/half testing branch, but so restricted somehow that only a small number of programs seem to make it). Testing is wiiiiiiide open.

A third party like Ubuntu takes snapshots of Debian, polishes them up and releases them every 6 months (so it's possible). They'd be nowhere without the Debian base though.

I won't deny you're doing a lot of work, nor making any progress. It's just not working the Debian way. If so we'd have annoying UI bugs like https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2405 and https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3179 fixed by now.

[Boke]

You weren't there for the two years they did that were you? :rolleyes: Please, just stop talking.

Actually... I was there... I had a 770 in october 2006 and was looking to buy one from the beginning so I'm around since a long time. Not contributing doesn't mean not being aware.

In no way I want to go back to these days. It was only a way to ask them to use bugzilla a better way, the real way.

And please, hold your words, if we were face to face, you would never ever dare to roll eyes and tell me to "just stop talking". Thanks.

[GeneralAntilles]

In no way I want to go back to these days. It was only a way to ask them to use bugzilla a better way, the real way.


. . . and that's the direction we're working towards, but you solution seems to be 'don't use bugzilla at all until you're ready to use it 100% to my expectations' which is just silly.

[Jaffa]

Just try to go toany other bugzilla outthere and mark a bug as resolved with the comment "Fixed in my branch" without providing any patch or info, and see the reaction.

Bugzilla is a software tool. Maemo isn't Debian. It isn't Ubuntu. It's a mobile operating system, based on Linux and other leading-edge open source frameworks, owned by Nokia.

Quim, you're right when you say our objective is to get Fremantle in our hands, but you're wrong thinking that the way you bring it to us is even near the best one. If you don't want to work with bugzilla and hide everything until the release, just don't use bugzilla. If you want to work colaboratively with users and use bugzilla, you'd have to do it another way.

80% or more of Fremantle will be open source, with source and bug tracking available through maemo.org. However, Nokia need to have a marketing advantage - and this means that some element of secrecy is inevitable :-(

Personally, I'd love to see Nokia use the experts in the maemo.org community more fruitfully, to design things; review specs and collaboratively develop Maemo to be the best it can be.

However, that may never happen. It's disingenous of many of those in this thread to suggest that Nokia should do things better. Things are better already. A quick look through Bugzilla at all the things we now know are going to be in fremantle or harmattan should make it clear that Nokia have already come a long way in the last year.

So, let's be positive about this: we're supposed to be an intelligent bunch - instead of saying "you've said you've fixed this in fremantle; but I haven't got fremantle - please spend time fixing and releasing diablo" (which would inevitably push fremantle's feature list down and its timescales out); let's start coming up with concrete suggestions on exactly what Nokia should do.

Some base principles:

At this point in a release's lifecycle, Maemo Software are going to be focusing on the next release.
With the efforts going into fremantle, backporting individual fixes isn't realistic.
Nokia want fremantle to have a big a splash as possible.


If there's a way of meeting everyone's requirements, within these parameters, Nokia aren't going to ignore it: they're not evil, they're just a company trying to keep everyone (developers, enthusiasts, shareholders, the board) as happy as possible.

[Boke]

. . . and that's the direction we're working towards, but you solution seems to be 'don't use bugzilla at all until you're ready to use it 100% to my expectations' which is just silly.

So you did not understood what I meant to do... But, well... I'm not so good at making words up (especially since english is not my mother tongue)... so it's ok not understanding me...

I know you're all working toward the good direction. I'm only asking for more in that case, and that way, I'm trying to support you.

As I said a few posts earlier, my rant is not against people at nokia using bugzilla, but about why they can't use it the real way, yet (and yes, I know why).

What you, and Jaffa just after you, say is that I should be happy with what I already got. I'm happier than one year ago, for sure. Does it mean that's enough? I don't think so.
My opinion, I share it, nevermind.

[Jaffa]

So you did not understood what I meant to do... But, well... I'm not so good at making words up (especially since english is not my mother tongue)... so it's ok not understanding me...

Your English is definitely better than my anything-other-than-English :-)

What you, and Jaffa just after you, say is that I should be happy with what I already got. I'm happier than one year ago, for sure. Does it mean that's enough? I don't think so.

Me neither! We just need to find a way past the anger and vitriol and come up with a plan :-)

[fpp]

- Those saying "I want this fix in Diablo" actually want to say "I want this fix in my device". The goal is to bring the Fremantle fixes to your devices, then.

Yes Quim, if that really is [your|someone's] goal then it is the right one.

It's the one 770 users were expecting in 2007, and also the one N8x0 users are expecting now.

I'm fine with that, it's just that it had never been expressed in so many words since the question was asked in Berlin...

[qole]

I think many of us would be very happy to have the Fremantle fixes brought to our existing devices, even if there is no fancy new UI on top. I even think we'd be happy without new functionality, if the bugs in the existing functionality were addressed. If this can be done, please try.

[Peet]

The thing is, most everyone knows that Nokia's Maemo (or Linux [UI+apps] for mobile devices in general) hasn't been "finished" or fully optimized quite yet, but that it's been understood to be work-in-progress and catching up with the fast maturing Linux desktop experience.

People trust that open process which brought us Debian/Ubuntu, Novell SUSE and Red Hat's Fedora. Features *will* arrive and drivers (and libraries and toolkits) *get* optimized. Each new release is an evolutionary improvement.

In Nokia's case there has been the expectation that as a much bigger entity (revenues, resource-wise) than the prominent Open Source companies put together, Nokia would commit enough resources to 1) take the mobile platform design forward, and also to 2) enable the small but growing developer and enthusiast community to maintain new software on the existing hardware.

From both the Open Source and also environmental (!) viewpoints 1-4 year old devices should certainly be capable and worthy of continued secure and even improved service.

If Nokia's objective is purely to maximize profit and minimize "obsoleted" platform support, maybe they should have picked Microsoft as their software sugardaddy or built their platform in-house along the lines of Apple/BSD. But if Nokia's objective is to help build an increasingly growing and self-sustainable open platform in which they can maintain a key role as an architect and benefactor/beneficiary, they'd need to learn when to stop hoarding the marbles or planning early obsoletion when it suits them.

Maybe the existing N7xx/N8xx generations are somewhat underpowered to deliver fancy Compiz/Clutter-style UI effects, but couldn't the basic 2D functionality (which we already have) still be taken forward and the building blocks fixed and improved? Is the perpetually improving Firefox engine (or user-friendly enhancements) tied to Nokia's Maemo 5/6 on technical grounds, or is it also just a problem with limited resources and prioritization? Doesn't the current ARM hardware have some built-in graphics acceleration features which remain unused due to closed/unported drivers?

It's not that I am a total ingrate and I do hail Nokia's contributions to the general Open Source development, esp. the work on overall improvements and fixes made to "behind-the-scenes" projects like GTK and QT. But perhaps due to corporate departmental and budgetary politics their actions are sometimes focused more towards short-term business bottom line as opposed to benefitting users and fostering community developers. It really is an eco-system where even the buyers-users and buyer-developers gyrate towards solutions that benefit them.

Maybe the hardware-centric and profit-margin oriented Nokia simply isn't the ideal "primus motor" to kickstart and popularize mobile Linux but it takes the "netbook" combination of distro community/company and a pure hardware manufacturer to build a sustainable non-closed platform? Time will tell, and people and companies sometimes learn from experience.

[Johnx]

Here's the thing in all of this: Nokia already releases a lot of source code on their SVN server [1]. With the Fremantle SDK even more will show up. While lots of people are making demands of Nokia to support older devices it's time to start thinking about the give and take of Open Source. Open Source is not about getting a free ride, it's about having the tools to help yourself. Supposedly the Fremantle alpha SDK will be almost entirely open source. Once it's out, community members need to start looking at it and talking about how to get the parts possible to run on the N8x0 (or even 770!) running. <plug>One of those projects is Mer: https://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint </plug>. If people just sit around and complain here, waiting for Nokia to make choices, then when they have a deadline crunch they'll look at the lack of community involvement and make decisions accordingly.

[1] https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk

-John

[tso]

meh, im going into resignation mode here. ill probably use my n800until it breaks end then go look for something else.

[ragnar]

I used this one as an example and since the bug was talking about the UI I talked about the design flaws for this one. I know that nothing is flawless, but I don't even know here if the bug we're talking about is properly fixed, unless I trust you blindly.
I'm ok if it's a won't fix in diablo and you fix it in fremantle, but if it's fixed, I'd like to know how it's fixed.
I know you've got an NDA on it so you can't comment much, but then, what's the point of marking it as fixed?


To note, I was going through bugs marked as enhancements. I think there's a difference between "bugs as such" and then enhancement bugs. I can't tell you _how_ the enhancement will be done in Fremantle - and whatever the enhancement will be, somebody will not agree with them - but I hope that there is value in knowing that "yes, this issue and enhancement proposal is something with agree with and Nokia will deliver in some future release X", vs. "Wontfix = we don't really agree with this issue, don't expect an update to this issue from Nokia, feel free to pursue this issue yourselves".

I fail to see how the alternative would be better: I would know that we are going to do this enhancement in some release, but I would then keep this information all to myself, up to the day when Fremantle is then actually launched. How would that be better?


I like to see Bugzilla as a collaborative tool shared by developers and users to exchange their views on some software.
Marking bugs as RESOLVED without telling anyone what you did to resolve it doesn't seem much interesting to me. Now the bug is not in the OPEN state anymore. So noone is supposed to be working on it anymore, while it's not fixed in Diablo. And noone will bother working on it, since there is a fix, in Fremantle. I don't know... maybe it's a massive bug hunt that nokia is doing... but I don't get the point of it.

Yes, the process is half-way in this manner. A fully open process, I guess, would show the enhancement and allow visibility on what the future UI will be, and allow contributions towards the app, the ui and the development process. We are still a ways off from that. Someday that might happen, or then not. I'm no good at predictions like that, since those things are outside my control.

[eliagp]

I said before, i think you should put the "Fixed in Freemantle" but also leave it open until freemantle is released, or another solution is found.

[GeneralAntilles]

I said before, i think you should put the "Fixed in Freemantle" but also leave it open until freemantle is released, or another solution is found.

s/Freemantle/Fremantle/

This isn't how the process works, and it doesn't actually do anything productive beyond supposedly soothing those of you that can't get over existing releases eventually being expired.

[eliagp]

Soothing isn't bad. We have a full thread of un-soothed people here. :)
And yeah, we are all scared that our devices get left aside, when the new one gets here.
Thats why "Fixed in Freemantle" ain't getting a whole buch of smiles. We just want to hear that the N8x0 are still getting attention. Complaining about the bugzilla is asking that. Maybe it isn't the right way, but heck, I know I'm nervous. I don't have the kind of money to get a new device. I want to be soothed.

[Texrat]

You rather prefer Fremantle's part of Bugzilla to be closed?

That's not the only other option.

[pixelseventy2]

And yeah, we are all scared that our devices get left aside, when the new one gets here.
Thats why "Fixed in Freemantle" ain't getting a whole buch of smiles. We just want to hear that the N8x0 are still getting attention.

Exactly. If Nokia or whoever came out and said, once and for all, that _they_ would be porting fremantle to our devices, then I'm sure most everyone here would be happy. So far, all we've had are vague assurances that "the community" will be able to port fremantle for us. Who knows how long that would be likely to take (no disrespect to the very talented community) or even if it's going to work properly when it arrives.

[Boke]

I fail to see how the alternative would be better: I would know that we are going to do this enhancement in some release, but I would then keep this information all to myself, up to the day when Fremantle is then actually launched. How would that be better?

Why not commenting the bug (Like you did) but letting it opened?

[GeneralAntilles]

Why not commenting the bug (Like you did) but letting it opened?

Because that's not how it works. When an enhancement is roadmapped, it's marked as FIXED.

[Matan]

If Nokia or whoever came out and said, once and for all, that _they_ would be porting fremantle to our devices, then I'm sure most everyone here would be happy.

Even if they were to do that, it would still leave us with bugs that are closed in bugzilla, but still unfixed for over half a year (and probably more). What is SSU for?

[qgil]

there has been the expectation that (...) Nokia would commit enough resources to 1) take the mobile platform design forward

Work in progress. Fremantle and Harmattan will probably make us see Diablo as we see Bora and Mistral today.

, and also to 2) enable the small but growing developer and enthusiast community to maintain new software on the existing hardware.

We are commited to http://wiki.maemo.org/Objective:Maemo_variants

About the rest,

Investing more resources having Fremantle fixes available also for Diablo might look like a more sustainable approach but... what if investing heavily in the future releases is actually the best way for Maemo to become really sustainable?

There is not such 'planning early obsoletion'. If you think device manufacturers make better business through obsoletion than through user satisfaction and customer retention, think twice. This sector is simply running fast, very fast. Look around. Not being fast is not very sustainable and to be fast you need to set priorities and make compromises.

On the other hand Maemo SW is funding 3 *masters for community activities and a fourth one is coming (debmaster). We could have less investment done there and more e.g. making Diablo users happier in the short term. But would that be more sustainable?

By prioritizing stronger future releases and a stronger community we fulfill better your 1) 2) points above and (we believe) all we are in a more promising and sustainable Maemo path.

PS: Actually Nokia seems to care about the environment (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/guide-greener-electronics-november-241108). Longer life for devices is part of this trend, and thanks to Maemo's openness that longer life doesn't depend on Nokia alone.

[mullf]

Because that's not how it works. When an enhancement is roadmapped, it's marked as FIXED.

Really? I'm sure the poster you were responding to hadn't figured that out. :rolleyes:

[GeneralAntilles]

Really? I'm sure the poster you were responding to hadn't figured that out. :rolleyes:

Apparently not, because it's not the first time I've responded to that 'solution' in this thread. :rolleyes:

[Peet]

Work in progress. Fremantle and Harmattan will probably make us see Diablo as we see Bora and Mistral today.

That's what we're not keen about. (replace 770 users with N8x0 users...) :rolleyes:


We are commited to http://wiki.maemo.org/Objective:Maemo_variants

Well, that objective is still clearly rather vague "work in progress"...

Investing more resources having Fremantle fixes available also for Diablo might look like a more sustainable approach but... what if investing heavily in the future releases is actually the best way for Maemo to become really sustainable?

So there's no current plan/hope to make Maemo 5 (Fremantle) run on the current N8x0-class devices? Just seeing the odd bug fix percolate down from the next OS upgrade to current devices sounds indeed wasteful when the userbase is clamouring for a proper upgrade (even if it's "Fremantle Basic" without some of the more advanced goodies and eye candy).

So to answer your question with a counter-question: What if investing heavily in making future releases (at least +1) available to current users and devices helps make the platform attractive and thus sustainable?

I.E. I wonder if it's sustainable to split the userbase and developer community to N8x0/Maemo 4 legacy and N9xx/Maemo 5 groups.

Only when the Fremantle SDK ships and eventually when Nokia starts handing out new "loaner" N9xx hardware to developers we'll find out how self-sustainable the legacy N8x0-platform really is. Not forgetting that some developers would also rather play with alternative platform ports (Debian, KDE etc.) on their "legacy" devices...

There is not such 'planning early obsoletion'. If you think device manufacturers make better business through obsoletion than through user satisfaction and customer retention, think twice. This sector is simply running fast, very fast. Look around. Not being fast is not very sustainable and to be fast you need to set priorities and make compromises.

Looking back, Maemo 4 (Chinook) arrived in the scene in late 2007 and it has basically had one minor update to 4.1 (Diablo) in mid-2008 plus associated 4.1.1 bug fix SSUs.

From mid-2008 forward, and until Fremantle with new N9xx hardware expected around mid-2009, what are the N8x0-users (i.e. most of the Nokia Internet Tablet userbase) looking forward to in this very fast-moving scene?

I don't know how much my personal views represent the average N8x0 userbase, but the longer my current device continues getting meaningful updates the likelier I am to consider buying another NIT. (Esp. if there was still some compatibility/synergy left between the old and the new device...)

[Jaffa]

Because that's not how it works. When an enhancement is roadmapped, it's marked as FIXED.

To be fair, this has only relatively recently been decided, and if there's consensus on an even better process, nothing should stop it from being adopted. There's also inconsistency: have all the WONTFIXed ones been corrected to "FIXED (Fremantle)" yet?

Having said that, some reaons why leaving it left open isn't really very viable with the tools:


It's not easy to see which requests have been dealt with, and which are newly opened.
It's slightly unrealistic: in the current climate no-one but Nokia really are going to provide these fixes to earlier OSes, especially if the Fremantle fix is to rearchitect a portion of the system to make meeting the requirement easier.


Perhaps a modification of the "target" milestone would help. Ideally, of course, the issue would be assigned to the appropriate designer/developer/reviewer/architect to act as a master for the development. It would then be updated with specs and assigned through the development workflow, finally being FIXED when the code is committed to some repository somewhere (hopefully a publicly visible one).

Failing that, what about keeping them open and assigned to "fremantle@maemo.bugs", again until some (internal) build of the software meets the requirement as outlined.

[GeneralAntilles]

To be fair, this has only relatively recently been decided, and if there's consensus on an even better process, nothing should stop it from being adopted.


Sure, if there's consensus on a better process, but there's clearly no consensus and I've yet to see a better argument for changing the current process than "because we're spiteful about Fremantle and don't want to face reality".

Now, you might say that enhancements should match bugs in being marked FIXED only when the code has been committed, but enhancements are different beasts, and their scope is frequently significantly larger than the typical bug, so tracking that "all appropriate code has been committed" point is much more difficult (and not a particularly useful thing to pursue).

So, enhancements are closed when they're roadmapped, and bugs are closed when the code is committed. If you can't deal with bugzilla not differentiating between hardware releases then I recommend unsubscribing from your bugmail and moving on. :)


There's also inconsistency: have all the WONTFIXed ones been corrected to "FIXED (Fremantle)" yet?


I've corrected the ones I've run across (maybe a half-dozen so far), so there's probably not a whole lot of them left. Either way, the inconsistency stems from incomplete or changing information (i.e., the feature was roadmapped after the bug was resolved, whoever resolved it didn't know that the feature had been roadmapped, etc.) than an incomplete policy changeover (i.e., the person resolving knew it was planned for Fremantle but closed it WONTFIX for the current release), so it's not really relevant to this particular discussion.

[Boke]

Apparently not, because it's not the first time I've responded to that 'solution' in this thread. :rolleyes:

I think you really have a problem with people having different opinion than yours, you always think they don't understand what they are talking about. Which makes you look really intolerent.
You should work on that.

I don't really feel the need to comment on the topic of this thread since "It's the way it works" and I feel like I lost my time.

[mullf]

Apparently not, because it's not the first time I've responded to that 'solution' in this thread. :rolleyes:

Yes, they state that they believe the way things are done should be changed and you reply "But that's the way things are done." IMHO that doesn't add much to the conversation, and when repeated over and over comes off as rather smug.

[GeneralAntilles]

Yes, they state that they believe the way things are done should be changed and you reply "But that's the way things are done." IMHO that doesn't add much to the conversation, and when repeated over and over comes off as rather smug.

Feel free to convince me of your point of view.

If you have a cogent argument for why your method is better, then make it. So far, restating your opinion over and over and backing it up with emotional appeals hasn't been very effective.

[Aisu]

I don't get why everyone's panties are up in a bunch over this. The boys at Nokie tossed the '07 and '08 hackers out and I'm pretty happy with em' (running off a card with the faster kernel, of course) on my 770. If they do the same with Fremantle (with all these bugs fixed) and the N8x0s, I'll be a pretty happy camper.

I don't feel like Nokia abandoned my 770, and I don't think they'll abandon the N8x0s. We'll get those bug fixes. Eventually...

Although, considering I just paid about $400 for this N810, I'd appreciate a fully supported Maemo 5 on it. ;) (And I could have it, if someone would pony up for those nasty drivers we're missing...)

[lma]

People upset with 'wontfix in Diablo' would be even more upset if the whole Maemo project failed.


Indeed.


- Those saying "I want this fix in Diablo" actually want to say "I want this fix in my device".


Yes, exactly (and within a reasonable time frame).

We have been told repeatedly that Nokia has learned from the 770 fiasco and such mistakes won't be repeated. We were also told that the N8*0 devices will be supported by at least Diablo and Elephanta. Some of us went out and bought N810s based (at least in part) on the above.

We're now in a situation where:

All purchased N810s (not to mention N810WEs!) are less than a year old right now.
Elephanta has been dropped.
We don't know whether Fremantle will be supported on N8*0.
Even if it is, it's at least 6 months away.
Existing Chinook/Diablo bugs get closed WONTFIX because Nokia doesn't have the resources to deal with them.


This is unfortunate and has considerable dampening effects:

effectively killing any motivation to continue reporting/testing Diablo bugs and
creating reasonable cause for concern that the next generation device could also end up being unsupported after a few months.


I hope this is just a communication problem but until/unless Nokia announces definitively that Fremantle will work on current hardware people will continue feeling frustrated and demotivated.

[qgil]

That's what we're not keen about. (replace 770 users with N8x0 users...) :rolleyes:

Don't you think that no matter how upset they were at the time, most 770 users welcomed the new software and hardware since they marked clear steps forward? Fremantle is a bigger step forward and... well, we can continue this discussion when a new device with Maemo inside is announced.

If you do the math, we are talking about a process of several months between the first and final Fremantle releases. For what we know already today, Fremantle is much more open than Mistral/Gregale were at their time. Also, the Maemo community is now much wider, with a deeper knowledge of the platform, with some dedicated members and several instruments of collaboration and decision. No matter what Maemo SW does with Diablo and Fremantle, the situation is radically different than in January 2007.

Well, that objective is still clearly rather vague "work in progress"...

Perhaps the Maemo Variants objective sounds vague for many of the community members that actually would benfit from them. Perhaps we could work more on them instead of playing tennis in the forums. It's a wiki and you are welcome to get into details as much as you will. From the Maemo SW side is not vague at all: implies certain infrastructure and support, opening and relicensing components, and we are working in all this right now.

About the rest of your points and many of the points made by others in this discussion:

- When the first Fremantle release comes we can discuss on top of real code (very soon). Before that we are going to probably repeat ourselves from our current positions.

- When the Fremantle beta release comes we can discuss on top of a full feature description that will allow you to understand the amount of work Fremantle requires. We can then discuss how feasible/useful would have been to backport those features and fixes to Diablo as well.

- When a new device with Maemo inside is announced we can revisit all this discussion since then everybody will have their opinions based on public knowledge. Now you have to base your arguments in assumptions, which is not the best foundation for a fruitful debate.

[mullf]

Feel free to convince me of your point of view.

If you have a cogent argument for why your method is better, then make it. So far, restating your opinion over and over and backing it up with emotional appeals hasn't been very effective.

I don't have a method, I don't give a flying **** if Freemantle bug-fixes are made available for the N8x0, as I have a 770. However, your manner is irritating and unpleasant. Feeling the need to add a post essentially saying "That's the way it is." in response to someone suggesting an alternate way of doing a thing is rather hostile.

I find reading this message board rather enjoyable, but when I get to one of your "I'm looking down at you because I think I'm smarter than you" posts, it takes away from that enjoyment. Just changing your picture to one of you smiling isn't going to change the perception one gets of you from your manner.

[gerbick]

Don't you think that no matter how upset they were at the time, most 770 users welcomed the new software and hardware since they marked clear steps forward? Fremantle is a bigger step forward and... well, we can continue this discussion when a new device with Maemo inside is announced.
Right. But about your users that were bit by having a 770 and a N810?

Seriously. I've been bit twice. There is no happiness to be found here. Just a feeling that if I were to even wait until the second version - instead of the N900, say the N910, I'll just have one year of support before I'm dumped again.

Seriously. If this is "how it is", it sucks. No excuses can be made for it.

[lardman]

Well, although the initial plan to drop support for the 770 wasn't good, the subsequent Hacker Editions (HE) for that device weren't too bad at all. Of course it would be nice to have more access to the hardware and software so we could do our own, and this is something (the more access) which has been improving with every release (and is said to be better still for Fremantle).

Regarding the N8x0, we don't have any evidence one way or the other about what the support situation will be. I'm quietly optimistic that we'll get Fremantle on our n8x0 devices, or at least a very good HE version.

[GeneralAntilles]

I don't have a method, I don't give a flying **** if Freemantle bug-fixes are made available for the N8x0, as I have a 770.


It was a general 'you' directed at the people trying to make the point, not necessarily directed at you.


However, your manner is irritating and unpleasant. Feeling the need to add a post essentially saying "That's the way it is." in response to someone suggesting an alternate way of doing a thing is rather hostile.

I find reading this message board rather enjoyable, but when I get to one of your "I'm looking down at you because I think I'm smarter than you" posts, it takes away from that enjoyment.

It is what it is, you felt a need to make an issue out of it so here we are. Either deal with it, ignore it or move on. If everybody wants to have a discussion, then let's have a discussion, but making it personal isn't productive for anybody.

Clearly this thread has run its course, though.


Just changing your picture to one of you smiling isn't going to change the perception one gets of you from your manner.

Oh, it was a perception ploy? News to me. I thought I was just changing the picture for the hell of it.

[gerbick]

Clearly this thread has run its course, though.
Care to explain why instead of stating some blanket statement without an ounce of substance behind it?

Anyway, with your personal attacks aside; customer grievances are real and should be heard. Especially when the customer has a legitimate reason to air out a grievance.

I dare anybody state otherwise.

[lcuk]

I have looked at the omap3 a bit this weekend.
I have to say, from the perspective of a hardware platform its spectacular.

I've heard some about the new platform we are going to have.

Things which I struggle to do now become easy, the amount of raw power the omap3 puts in the palm of your hand is incredible.
being able to take a real picture with a decent camera makes my spine tingle.
I would be saddened if nokia *didn't* jump to it.
Once you have all that power you try to make use of it.

I bet the UI on Fremantle kicks ***!
I can't wait to see it!!!





Now that does not help you or I with our n8x0 devices.
We are seeing bugs marked in one product (n8x0version) as fixed on new/drastically different software version.
I gather the problem here is that the bugs are in closed source packages?

I wonder if nokia would do the honourable thing and open up the closed software packages with outstanding unfixed bugs/requests against them.

Of course, if Nokia were continuing to actively develop and support those packages in the current OS then there is no problem with them remaining closed.

But I think the community could join in to care for this software and allow Diablo to live as long as it needs with a happy user base.

[GeneralAntilles]

Care to explain why instead of stating some blanket statement without an ounce of substance behind it?

Anyway, with your personal attacks aside; customer grievances are real and should be heard. Especially when the customer has a legitimate reason to air out a grievance.

I dare anybody state otherwise.

Exactly because of the personal attacks. Threads reduced to personal attacks don't often recover from them.

If you have issues take them up with Nokia. This forum is not Nokia.

Either way, as qgil said, we should all wait for more information before we jump to conclusions which may or may not be valid.

[electrolind]

Howdy all,

I've been thinking lately just how lucky I've been. I had an N800 for 17 months until I broke the screen. Bought a SECOND N800. I remeber I had Chinook on the first one and awaited eagerly for Diablo. Still love it. I am thankful to GeneralAntilles, Penguinbait and a whole mess of people that have helped me and others take this platform to the level of performance. I am very sure that the people at Nokia are appreciative for the communiuty support that the tablets have enjoyed. Reading through this thread brings up some interesting thoughts about the future for myself. I figure on another two years until I wear this screen out too. By then Freemantle should be out.... :)

[gerbick]

Exactly because of the personal attacks. Threads reduced to personal attacks don't often recover from them.
Then use a better tone. Your demeanor is not conducive to deep coversation as to how you are perceived.

Regardless, this forum is not about you either. This is a forum about the Nokia internet tablets; people complain at Amazon.com about stuff that's not made there. So please let's get back to the original poster and off of you.

The prospect that things will be solved in a version of the OS that's been shoehorned - think Hacker's Edition - into my N810 is not appealing to me at all.

[GeneralAntilles]

Then use a better tone. Your demeanor is not conducive to deep coversation as to how you are perceived.


I'm not the one that started in on the personal attacks. :)


Regardless, this forum is not about you either.


No, it's not, so please don't try to make it about me. :)


This is a forum about the Nokia internet tablets; people complain at Amazon.com about stuff that's not made there. So please let's get back to the original poster and off of you.


My point was, complaining here (ranting, more like) isn't productive to your ends. Either you send your message, hopefully in a rational and polite way, where Nokia's likely to hear it (phone them, email them, mail them, whatever) or you step up to the challenge (and the offer) and get to work. Anything else is just useless, unproductive venting.


The prospect that things will be solved in a version of the OS that's been shoehorned - think Hacker's Edition - into my N810 is not appealing to me at all.

Then help the community remove the barriers to Maemo variants and get Fremantle running on the current generation of hardware.

The point everybody here seems so desperately trying to ignore is that Nokia's movement towards openness is finally getting us to where we're not beholden to them to provide support for legacy hardware. We're no longer tied to a specific kernel because of closed drivers, and no longer stuck on a specific architecture by closed-source applications and packages. We have the ability and the tools to provide our own support. So instead of uselessly ranting and bickering, why don't we step up and make it happen—step up, accept Nokia's offer, find roadblocks so they can remove them, and work together—as a community—to put together a kickass platform.

[gerbick]

I'm not the one that started in on the personal attacks.
Agreed. But your "that's the way it is" tone just didn't rub me the right way either.

No, it's not, so please don't try to make it about me.
I already knew that. I hope you do as well.
My point was, complaining here (ranting, more like) isn't productive to your ends. Either you send your message, hopefully in a rational and polite way, where Nokia's likely to hear it (phone them, email them, mail them, whatever) or you step up to the challenge (and the offer) and get to work. Anything else is just useless, unproductive venting.
I would not call it unproductive when this site is very visible to Nokia. If it were more obscure, like the aforementioned Amazon.com rants that continuously go on; then I'd agree.

But we both know that Nokia lurks this site. Not as extensive as most would like to think; however this is a place where the commonality of the ownership reigns supreme. However; the problem is that most do not see this site as a place to solve problems as much as this is the place to come when you want information, commiserate and above all find out a few things that you just will never find in a manual.

Or to follow what Fanoush is doing now and next. That's why I came here; truth be told. So with that admission, my reason for being here is more niche than the norm.

Then help the community remove the barriers to Maemo variants and get Fremantle running on the current generation of hardware.
It starts with finding out if you are alone in that regard. Read the thread... if something were started now, I'm sure people will start to support that endeavor. And to think... it all started with one disgruntled post.

The point everybody here seems so desperately trying to ignore is that Nokia's movement towards openness is finally getting us to where we're not beholden to them to provide support for legacy hardware. We're no longer tied to a specific kernel because of closed drivers, and no longer stuck on a specific architecture by closed-source applications and packages. We have the ability and the tools to provide our own support. So instead of uselessly ranting and bickering, why don't we step up and make it happen—step up, accept Nokia's offer, find roadblocks so they can remove them, and work together—as a community—to put together a kickass platform.
We. If you were a Nokia employee, I'd believe what you said. I don't think that you fully represent the forum. I know that I do not.

There is no we in "disgruntled". There is no excuse to have, in my case, a 770 and N810 - which I had the 770 for under a year before it was sent to Nokia 8 times. The N810, I've not had for even a year, and I'm now looking at the same situation as my 770; it feels the same at least that I will not be supported.

That's two years, two devices, some $600.00 USD that's being thrown away because... well, "We have a better platform..." mantra from Nokia. I can't keep wasting like that, putting LCD's into a landfill. Or spending a lot of money only to find my options with other devices is... well, just that much better in terms of long-term support. And trade-ins... a joke. If I see incentives that match my devotion to these devices, I'll bite. So far, definitely not the case.

That's why I turn to this community.

Seriously. That's what is being overlooked. Owners will start to feel shafted if there is not a community to support the devices after they're "run their course"... albeit in this case, very short runs.

The fact that rants happen; get over it. I develop software - Adobe Flex based mostly - and I get the weirdest requests and/or complaints. I just deal with it.

I just am glad that the Adobe Flex community supports me when I rant, rave, commiserate, fuss at Adobe - I have a nigh-feud with two developers, a friendly one though - or laugh at how my fixes are always upcoming.

To me, this is the same. And I'd be real upset if I got a blanket statement of "just deal with it". I'd be livid because I know how much I've invested and that doesn't make me feel good at all.

My two cents ya'll :)

[GeneralAntilles]

I would not call it unproductive when this site is very visible to Nokia. If it were more obscure, like the aforementioned Amazon.com rants that continuously go on; then I'd agree.

But we both know that Nokia lurks this site. Not as extensive as most would like to think; however this is a place where the commonality of the ownership reigns supreme. However; the problem is that most do not see this site as a place to solve problems as much as this is the place to come when you want information, commiserate and above all find out a few things that you just will never find in a manual.


See, but the people at Nokia who see this site don't need to be convinced—hey're already believers. The people who actually need to be convinced don't read itT. That's why it'll be more productive to take your complaining to customer channels where they're more likely to be paying attention. If you want to wear the customer hat, you need to go through customer channels.


It starts with finding out if you are alone in that regard. Read the thread... if something were started now, I'm sure people will start to support that endeavor. And to think... it all started with one disgruntled post.


Sadly that's rarely the case, and it's certainly not the case (http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Reconstructed) in this particular thread as it's already started (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint). Mostly it simply ends in flames, or it ends in people saying they're gonna do something productive, but nobody actually does (trust me, I've seen most of them).


We. If you were a Nokia employee, I'd believe what you said. I don't think that you fully represent the forum. I know that I do not.


qgil said it himself right here in this very thread, I'm not sure what there's not to believe. Nokia's certainly expressed their willingness to work with us.

[gerbick]

See, but the people at Nokia who see this site don't need to be convinced—hey're already believers. The people who actually need to be convinced don't read itT. That's why it'll be more productive to take your complaining to customer channels where they're more likely to be paying attention. If you want to wear the customer hat, you need to go through customer channels.
They're just going to have to show me some proof of how much they believe in anything. So far, I'm two devices deep in disappointment. And complaining to their customer channels has gotten me a refurbished, badly flashed 770 with more scuff marks than my original, nearly new version I had sent them. But... after some time with it, it's still ticking. I did what they were unwilling to do... provide proper support.

I don't think you got what I said in the least, to be honest. I'll just kindly request that you go back and re-read it. I didn't use overly complex words nor structure on purpose. Simply stated, the community would like to make a grievance and request to be known... we'd like to remain supported in a manner that doesn't leave a 11 month purchase turn into a regret. That would mean that it would be nice, before the decision is made, that future iterations (where possible) would receive proper openness and support by the community; instead of the (seemingly) one-man show that was the Hacker Editions.

Sadly that's rarely the case, and it's certainly not the case (http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Reconstructed) in this particular thread as it's already started (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint). Mostly it simply ends in flames, or it ends in people saying they're gonna do something productive, but nobody actually does (trust me, I've seen most of them).
And trust me; some things start out in outcry in order to voice an opinion. It's not the best way; that we can agree upon. Flames, nor bad attitudes make a community work or flourish.

I'd suggest both be taken serious by all.

qgil said it himself right here in this very thread, I'm not sure what there's not to believe. Nokia's certainly expressed their willingness to work with us.
There's a lot not to believe. I'm patient though. And keeping my 770 and N810. I will wait two generations for the next one; and make my decision then. As it stands, on this very day, Nokia will not be getting my money.

One opinion in a leviathan does not make me a believer; however I'll remain patient and open-minded.

Thanks for the kind conversation. I enjoy this better than the alternative :)

[Johnx]

It starts with finding out if you are alone in that regard. Read the thread... if something were started now, I'm sure people will start to support that endeavor. And to think... it all started with one disgruntled post.

No, things started a while ago. Lots of people, inside and outside Nokia have been pushing to make a community supported distribution possible. If things change it will be because people communicate in a calm, rational way and collaborate to make change possible, not because someone complained on a message board.

We. If you were a Nokia employee, I'd believe what you said. I don't think that you fully represent the forum. I know that I do not.

There is no we in "disgruntled". There is no excuse to have, in my case, a 770 and N810 - which I had the 770 for under a year before it was sent to Nokia 8 times. The N810, I've not had for even a year, and I'm now looking at the same situation as my 770; it feels the same at least that I will not be supported.

That's two years, two devices, some $600.00 USD that's being thrown away because... well, "We have a better platform..." mantra from Nokia. I can't keep wasting like that, putting LCD's into a landfill. Or spending a lot of money only to find my options with other devices is... well, just that much better in terms of long-term support. And trade-ins... a joke. If I see incentives that match my devotion to these devices, I'll bite. So far, definitely not the case.


Major feature upgrades aren't quite the same as "support." Your warranty is still valid, and I'm sure they'll answer customer support calls. Nokia isn't the best in terms of supplying new software releases for old devices, but they're certainly not the worst. On the other hand, you sent them the wrong message by spending money on an N810 after getting burned when they stopped supporting the 770.


That's why I turn to this community.

Seriously. That's what is being overlooked. Owners will start to feel shafted if there is not a community to support the devices after they're "run their course"... albeit in this case, very short runs.
We are the community! You and me. Some of us are stepping up and looking at ways to get Fremantle on the N8x0 devices (hey, maybe some parts will run on the 770 even!). But the more people helping, the better. Nokia gave us the tools to help ourselves this time, and if we don't take advantage of those tools, I don't see this happening again. It's time for the community to step up and prove that supporting Open Source makes sense for a company.

I just am glad that the Adobe Flex community supports me when I rant, rave, commiserate, fuss at Adobe - I have a nigh-feud with two developers, a friendly one though - or laugh at how my fixes are always upcoming.

To me, this is the same. And I'd be real upset if I got a blanket statement of "just deal with it". I'd be livid because I know how much I've invested and that doesn't make me feel good at all.

I understand where you're coming from, but it really illustrates a difference in being beholden to a commercial entity (Adobe's Flex) and having the possibility of taking things into your own hands (Nokia's Maemo). When people say "just deal with it" on this board they're (for the most part ;) ) not saying "Shut up and take it," they're saying "Let's fix it!"

[gerbick]

No, things started a while ago. Lots of people, inside and outside Nokia have been pushing to make a community supported distribution possible. If things change it will be because people communicate in a calm, rational way and collaborate to make change possible, not because someone complained on a message board.
I guess the parts where I said that I agreed that it's not the best way to get things done were overlooked - I'm not for a community filled with flames nor bad attitudes at all; nor do I wish to contribute to that. But it's also a way that things have gotten done.

The insides/outside discussion that's happening at Nokia; I'll wait to see what happens. If nothing; then expect truly disgruntled people - with praise for a past platform in tow.

If something good actually happens, expect happier people - with complaints in tow still perhaps.

Major feature upgrades aren't quite the same as "support."
Neither is fixing what's wrong now with an upcoming version that will not work on my already purchased machine.

Your warranty is still valid, and I'm sure they'll answer customer support calls. Nokia isn't the best in terms of supplying new software releases for old devices, but they're certainly not the worst.
Among the worst I've seen. And I can go back to vendors in the '70's.

On the other hand, you sent them the wrong message by spending money on an N810 after getting burned when they stopped supporting the 770.
Oh, we agree 100% here. However, after 8 times, over 8 hours of being on the phone; I could hope that my message was somewhat heard.

We are the community! You and me. Some of us are stepping up and looking at ways to get Fremantle on the N8x0 devices (hey, maybe some parts will run on the 770 even!). But the more people helping, the better. Nokia gave us the tools to help ourselves this time, and if we don't take advantage of those tools, I don't see this happening again. It's time for the community to step up and prove that supporting Open Source makes sense for a company.
Again, not one argument here. It's really along the lines of what I've been saying all along.

I understand where you're coming from, but it really illustrates a difference in being beholden to a commercial entity (Adobe's Flex) and having the possibility of taking things into your own hands (Nokia's Maemo). When people say "just deal with it" on this board they're (for the most part ;) ) not saying "Shut up and take it," they're saying "Let's fix it!"
You know... the latter is only three words, whereas the former is four. I don't even have a skillset that probably would help outside of logic and/or concept - I've never lied while here, I'm a consumer first.

I'm still learning about Mer and the other offerings. Even waiting on Android on the 770 perhaps - which is still my preferred internet tablet.

Thanks for the wise words.

[Andre Klapper]

Why do such discussion always rise when I'm completely offline for a long weekend? :)
From a quick readthrough, most things have been explained already in this thread. Just picking up a small issue:

To be fair, this has only relatively recently been decided, and if there's consensus on an even better process, nothing should stop it from being adopted.

Correct. That's what we also have the wiki for... I've now described the current situation of RESOLVED FIXED state at https://wiki.maemo.org/Bugsquad and of course it's open for discussion to improve, e.g. here or on the maemo-community mailing list (the latter I will definitely not miss).


Perhaps a modification of the "target" milestone would help. Ideally, of course, the issue would be assigned to the appropriate designer/developer/reviewer/architect to act as a master for the development. It would then be updated with specs and assigned through the development workflow, finally being FIXED when the code is committed to some repository somewhere (hopefully a publicly visible one).


I assume you only refer to enhancement requests here?


Failing that, what about keeping them open and assigned to "fremantle@maemo.bugs", again until some (internal) build of the software meets the requirement as outlined.

At least for bugs I'd say: Basically because it adds noise if keeping them in open state. Querying for bugs in FIXED state and with Target Milestone == Fremantle set shows up those bugs and removes the noise when taking a look at open requests that still need to be handled.

[Karel Jansens]

This entire discussion is a bit pointless: Of course Nokia isn't going to fix the remaining bugs in OS2008; they need you to all buy the new tablet when (if) it comes out, especially in their current eroding market position.

The situation will be exactly the same as with the 770 to N800 transition: If you want the new features, you're going to have to give cash to Nokia. Eventually a crippled version of the new software, so-called "community developed", will make it to the N8x0, but it will only work to the extent that it will make you crave for the new device.

It's just how Nokia works. It's not as if, because they're throwing "open source" and "community" around, that they've suddenly changed their MO. Just look at them as a company that wants your money, don't pay attention to the buzzwords and the fanboi spinning and consider this: "Knowing what I know about how they've done things re the tablets since 2005, are they still worthy of my cash?"

And please, don't make the mistake of assuming Nokia is interested in or furthering the open source community, because they aren't. Or, to be more precise, they're only interested in a community that brings them profit.

In view of this, IMO the only mistake Nokia has made is in putting the launch date of the new tablet so far ahead (summer '09, which most likely will translate in to Q409) and already starting the covert "no more bugfixes" operation. I'm sure someone inside is by now really p*ssed off that people have started seeing through the "fixed in Fremantle" hussle so soon, so maybe there's a possibility of a few token fixes down the line. So keep your hopes up :rolleyes:

[lardman]

Eventually a crippled version of the new software, so-called "community developed", will make it to the N8x0, but it will only work to the extent that it will make you crave for the new device.

Depends on how hard we work on said software really and I've got to say that the existing software works reasonably well - not perfect certainly, but well enough and with community provided bug-fixes/software I can't see what people are complaining about.

don't pay attention to the buzzwords and the fanboi spinning and consider this: "Knowing what I know about how they've done things re the tablets since 2005, are they still worthy of my cash?"

If you're not close enough to see that changes are underway then you'll probably say no. In which case wait and see how people react to the new software/SDK when it comes out soon.

And please, don't make the mistake of assuming Nokia is interested in or furthering the open source community, because they aren't. Or, to be more precise, they're only interested in a community that brings them profit.

Of course, no reason why that needs to be a negative thing though.

In view of this, IMO the only mistake Nokia has made is in putting the launch date of the new tablet so far ahead (summer '09, which most likely will translate in to Q409) and already starting the covert "no more bugfixes" operation.

This date is unsubstantiated afaik, and the fact you think your prediction will slip back two quarters anyway is probably just exposure to the Pandora ;)

[flareup]

Nokia are a company, not a charity. Of course they want our money.

Are they still WORTHY of our money? what a strange thing to ask. well, both the 770 and 800 have worked for me, so I guess the new one probably will too.

Hardware moves on. I wouldn't expect to run some new software on the pentium I had ten years ago. Having said that, I still use old software on one machine just because it does what I want and I like it.

My 800 does what it does when I bought it, somethings it does a bit quicker and 'better' now. That's good.

If I have the moeny and the next device looks good, I'll buy it.

simple.

And for a personel question to Karel, it is obvious from posts here that you are interested in the Pandora product, but do you have a business interest in it? It's really none of MY buisiness, but I it may influence the way I read yor posts if i knew the answer.

[Texrat]

Don't you think that no matter how upset they were at the time, most 770 users welcomed the new software and hardware since they marked clear steps forward?

Since I was in the middle of that fire, I have to say no, they didn't welcome it. To put it mildly.

Many people who bought 770s were very happy with it in many ways, and had no desire to move up to N800s or N810s. To them the new developments did not represent a way forward so much as a way sideways.

The hardcore 770 owners (and they are legion) saw the break as a slap in the face, and despite the good intentions wrought by hacker editions it truly was a public relations fiasco, Quim. Something we really, really need to avoid repeating... and tossing Molotov platitudes at the fire is not the solution! ;)

[Texrat]

This entire discussion is a bit pointless: Of course Nokia isn't going to fix the remaining bugs in OS2008; they need you to all buy the new tablet when (if) it comes out, especially in their current eroding market position.

Not at all.

Better than most, Nokia will ride out the crisis, and regardless will not depend on the sales of one niche device to prevent financial damage. ;)

[qole]

So far, I'm two devices deep in disappointment... I'm patient though. And keeping my 770 and N810. I will wait two generations for the next one; and make my decision then. As it stands, on this very day, Nokia will not be getting my money.

On the other hand, you sent them the wrong message by spending money on an N810 after getting burned when they stopped supporting the 770.

Yes, if you're feeling all disgruntled at Nokia, buy your tablets used. That way you get to enjoy using your tablet, rant about Nokia, and not have to worry about them getting any of your money. :) :D

[rjzak]

Having to use Mac OS in the first place isn't being shafted enough? The way Jobs treats the fan-boys (who lap it up) looks like a good, hard shafting to me.

I'm one of those fan boys who lap it up. Apple has some great products and I know there'll be more greatness to come. But I don't do iPhone, I'm a Nokia guy as well.

Me thinks you just had some crazy wack experience, and that you'd like Apple if you gave them a decent try. But go ahead and tell of your experiences, its good to get things out in the open. What did Sir Stevie do to you? :)

[fpp]

Yes, if you're feeling all disgruntled at Nokia, buy your tablets used. That way you get to enjoy using your tablet, rant about Nokia, and not have to worry about them getting any of your money. :) :D

One better : I'm THREE deep... one full-price (770), one second-hand (N800), one discounted (N810). If I am to maintain this trend of diminishing prices I guess I'll have to steal a N900 :-)

[Mara]

One better : I'm THREE deep... one full-price (770), one second-hand (N800), one discounted (N810). If I am to maintain this trend of diminishing prices I guess I'll have to steal a N900 :-)

Hmmm... my track record: New 770, new N800, used N800, used N810, used N810, used N810 and used N810. (The last three used N810 have gone to my friends and relatives.)

[pixelseventy2]

I'm one of those fan boys who lap it up. Apple has some great products and I know there'll be more greatness to come. But I don't do iPhone, I'm a Nokia guy as well.

Me thinks you just had some crazy wack experience, and that you'd like Apple if you gave them a decent try. But go ahead and tell of your experiences, its good to get things out in the open. What did Sir Stevie do to you? :)

Actually, it's the superior, holier-than-thou, apple can do no wrong, apple stuff is better than everything else attitude of many (not all) apple fan boys that I hate. An attitude which I have frequently proven wrong to the aforementioned people over the last 10 years that I have experienced it. Granted, once upon a time macs were better for graphics, music, etc... But those times are long past. In real terms there is very little performance difference between macs and "pcs" from a performance point of view. My £300 custom amd pc running linux (even XP) performs just as well as my friends £1500 mac.

Besides, fanboy baiting is just fun :p

But this is neither the time nor the place for this discussion.

[allnameswereout]

Yes, if you're feeling all disgruntled at Nokia, buy your tablets used. That way you get to enjoy using your tablet, rant about Nokia, and not have to worry about them getting any of your money. :) :DOr don't be a beta tester and don't buy something right after it is released.

[pixelseventy2]

and that you'd like Apple if you gave them a decent try

Believe me, I've tried. I would have failed my degree if I hadn't, as they were the only computers available.

[allnameswereout]

Believe me, I've tried. I would have failed my degree if I hadn't, as they were the only computers available.Goodness, you're still alive!?!

[fpp]

Hmmm... my track record: New 770, new N800, used N800, used N810, used N810, used N810 and used N810. (The last three used N810 have gone to my friends and relatives.)

Ouch. You're either professionally close to a Nokia 3D printer, or a compulsive buyer/seller :-)

[luca]

Or don't be a beta tester and don't buy something right after it is released.

Exactly, wait just like I did, only to see a dramatic price drop few weeks after buying ;)

[ragnar]

Now I'm a Nokian, but now I'll try to speak here as me the consumer, not as me the company representative: I wouldn't buy a device if I wouldn't be satisfied with the things the device offers me out of the box. And as a consumer I also know that whatever gizmo I will buy, new and better ones will surely come.

To compare, I bought the Nikon D300 camera about 8 months ago. Now there is the D90 and D700 and others, giving better value and new features. I'm still happy with my D300, it takes great pictures. I've also bought a lot of stuff which got outdated almost instantly. Sony MiniDiscs got replaced by the iPod quickly, they were still good for a few things.

I didn't buy the 770 or the N800 because for me it wasn't yet the device I would have wanted for myself. (Hey well yes, we got those devices of course anyway.) I didn't recommend it to my friends either. We're - and I'm - working hard so that one day this will be different. I wouldn't continue working here if I didn't see this day coming. I really hope people see new products, both in terms of hardware and software, as positive things, signs that there are progress and better things coming.

I at least measure success in this case by popularity. No company has infinite resources. If I would be in charge - and I'm not - I would much rather invest and focus the efforts on getting great hardware and great software out. The more good software and solutions there is for a given platform, the more good backwards compatibility is needed. But if there is a choice between working for backwards compatibility for HW and SW that is not as good as it can be, or working for the future, for stuff which allows building great solutions and user experiences, I as a designer would choose the latter.

No compatibility is free, this is true for the entire device SW stack, and even for the UI layer. Something as basic as moving towards touch usability makes full backwards compatibility really hard, and having it would fragment the device UI. After we reach something really great then I would be much more worried about compatibility than what I am right now.

[eiffel]

I gotta say, when I bought my N800 I had no expectations of ongoing upgrades.

The updates that I have received were a pleasant and unexpected bonus. Thanks Nokia!

The problem with "Fixed in Fremantle" isn't so much that Nokia won't be fixing it for Diablo, it's that the fix isn't visible. In time that won't be a problem, but for now it's a taunt.

[Texrat]

ragnar, you're saying the same sort of things I've said before on this subject, but I still think the transitions could be managed MUCH better.

[qole]

Exactly, wait just like I did, only to see a dramatic price drop few weeks after buying ;)

In my case, it was days, not weeks. I actually had to send my first tablet back to the retailer that sold it to me, the box unopened, because they couldn't price match the prices online shortly after I purchased. It was $80 cheaper to pay the shipping fee back to the retailer and buy elsewhere.

Of course, the retailer that just couldn't price match was selling it for the same price two weeks later, too.

[ragnar]

ragnar, you're saying the same sort of things I've said before on this subject, but I still think the transitions could be managed MUCH better.

Yes, I agree with this. :)

[allnameswereout]

Exactly, wait just like I did, only to see a dramatic price drop few weeks after buying ;)Sounds like the stock market to me :o

I searched for the cheapest deal I could find, on eBay. Saved me between 75 and 100 EUR over the cheapest _new_ deals.

(Then again, maybe my GPS chip is b0rked... :rolleyes: )

[mullf]

Hmmm... my track record: New 770, new N800, used N800, used N810, used N810, used N810 and used N810. (The last three used N810 have gone to my friends and relatives.)

I have a 770 I ordered Nov. 14, 2005, as soon as I was aware it was available for order. I had read about it several months earlier and was eagerly awaiting it.

I'm still waiting for the next version with a hard case. ;)

[canoehead]

When I bought my N800, I expected a working email client with imap support. What I've had to use is beta-quality software that has erratic behaviour (when will it actually delete a message? Who knows?) and has apparently no new software fixes scheduled for it, if this fixed-in-fremantle stuff is true.

I've lived with the osso-email then modest client, barely, but if you expect me to trust buying a new device and a substantial os redesign to be anywhere stable for the first year, I'll pass. I cannot justify living with the quality of the email software, and there is no good replacement that integrates into the desktop natively.

Unless some basic fixes are brought to Diablo to extend the useful life of the device until the kinks are worked out of the N900, I'll just get an N71 cell or something and be done with tablets (and take my chances with the native client or symbian marketplace.)

[Texrat]

I will not say what details you can or cannot expect, but don't write off future Diable updates. Keep in mind the N810 WE is new and you can expect its lifecycle will see some updates.

Also I am trying to remain hopeful that the developer community will come through in some areas, too. I worry about loss of momentum though. I think it was a big mistake on the program's part not to produce an updated N800 derivative... that could have filled a gap.

[qole]

Keep in mind the N810 WE is new and you can expect its lifecycle will see some updates.

That reminds me, are N810 WE owners able to flash their devices yet? Or are they still SOL if they bork things up?

[qole]

...if you expect me to trust buying a new device ... I'll pass. I cannot justify living with the quality of the email software, and there is no good replacement that integrates into the desktop natively.

The new device should be powerful enough to run Gnome (maybe even with Compiz :D ) and some spiffy desktop e-mail client like Thunderbird or Evolution. So even if the built-in e-mail client (probably still Modest) is not worthy of release candidate status, we'll have lots of choice to run something else.

That being said... Please Nokia, don't drive us there.

[Texrat]

Qole, I have not seen a public image released yet... but I'm doing my part (testing)!

[qole]

Texrat, you see, this is what worries me. Nokia is talking about learning from the past, doing things right for Fremantle, etc, but... The WE was (very recently) released "into the wild" before you can even download a firmware image for it!

[Texrat]

No comment...

[Johnx]

That reminds me, are N810 WE owners able to flash their devices yet? Or are they still SOL if they bork things up?

They have been for a while now, first through the Windows flasher and then a bit later the image appeared on tabletsdev.maemo.org. But yes, I did find it incredibly strange that they'd ship an image on a production device but not feel comfortable putting the same image up for download. Maybe it was some kind of licensing/redistribution issue? I really don't know.

/me goes back to waiting with bated breath for Fremantle Alpha SDK...

[Texrat]

Thanks John. Based on comments I've seen I assumed it was still unattainable by the public...

[Andre Klapper]

Thanks John. Based on comments I've seen I assumed it was still unattainable by the public...

According to Marcell it should definitely be fixed nowadays: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3842

[allnameswereout]

Does this person (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25284) correctly flash their N810WME? It is a strange problem. I'm eager to learn what is going on there...

[luca]

I've lived with the osso-email then modest client, barely

That "bug" is easy to fix: forget the integrated mail application and install claws. It works well with imap, and since it isn't part of the tablet core software, it's actually updated when bugs are fixed or features are added.

[pixelseventy2]

That "bug" is easy to fix: forget the integrated mail application and install claws. It works well with imap, and since it isn't part of the tablet core software, it's actually updated when bugs are fixed or features are added.


I think the key part of his statement was "and there is no good replacement that integrates into the desktop natively." which claws certainly doesn't do. Although I don't have any major problems with modest

[luca]

I think the key part of his statement was "and there is no good replacement that integrates into the desktop natively." which claws certainly doesn't do. Although I don't have any major problems with modest

Since, among the bundled offerings, I only use the (buggy) web browser and the (even more buggy) rss reader, for me claws is as integrated as it gets, anyway this is another shortcoming (fixed in fremantle?) of the bundled stack, that doesn't allow to plug different applications than the defaults ones (i.e. while claws is perfectly able to open a link in the browser, it's impossible for the browser to route a mailto link to claws)

[GeneralAntilles]

(i.e. while claws is perfectly able to open a link in the browser, it's impossible for the browser to route a mailto link to claws)

[Citation needed]

It's actually perfectly possible (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17757), it's just not as easy as it should be, although it makes perfect sense considering Nokia's background.

[luca]

[Citation needed]

It's actually perfectly possible (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17757), it's just not as easy as it should be, although it makes perfect sense considering Nokia's background.

I cannot search it now, (the search in thread function doesn't work with microb, oh the irony) but I thought it only worked with mime types of http/https documents/links, I didn't know it also works with mailto.

[canoehead]

Since, among the bundled offerings, I only use the (buggy) web browser and the (even more buggy) rss reader, for me claws is as integrated as it gets, anyway this is another shortcoming (fixed in fremantle?) of the bundled stack, that doesn't allow to plug different applications than the defaults ones (i.e. while claws is perfectly able to open a link in the browser, it's impossible for the browser to route a mailto link to claws)

That's only part of it -- use the system contacts database, integrated with the system mail settings, etc. I tried Claws, and wasn't too impressed with the experience as a whole. Similarly I'm not interested in whole gui replacements like gnome or kde. I like Hildon, but they've either got to improve the bugginess of the built-in stuff, or get out of the way and either let the community fix things like Modest, or develop drop-in replacements that can be integrated.

I used to use a Palm Tungsten C. The native Palm email client was lacking, so I went with SnapperMail. It was very integrated, essentially with the palm providing fundamental services that made SnapperMail a very effective drop-in replacement.

[Johnx]

Anyone is free to work on Modest. It's totally open source.

[lma]

Anyone is free to work on Modest. It's totally open source.

More accurately, anyone is free to fork modest. The source code may be available under an open licence, but it's not a community project (ie, development is driven cathedral-style based on internal design specifications that we can't even see). Moreover, Nokia seems to has decided that it's adequate in its current state and has moved most of the developers to other projects.

There seems little point in spending all the time and effort required to get to grips with the code (and tinymail, camel etc) only to be told that your patch goes against the design or (to get back on topic) that things will be done differently in Fremantle and your patch doesn't apply.

[sjgadsby]

Is anyone else getting as annoyed by the constant "fixed in fremantle" comments on bugzilla?

Actually, I've just realized that I want a maemo.org "Fixed in Fremantle" T-shirt. The maemo.org redesign better bring with it a store from which I can make such a purchase.

[qole]

They've promised to sell us these shirts, but they won't be available until the second half of 2010. The official word is that if we want these shirts sooner, the community needs to step up and provide them ourselves.

[fpp]

Hah ! That is easy... just buy some inkjet-printable decals, leech the logo and add the three words in heavy Gothic font, iron out... problem solved.

Tell you what... I'll take care of the T-shirts and have them ready when you guys roll out FremantleHE for the N8x0, 'kay ? :-)

[Johnx]

(Sorry, have to painfully extend the metaphor. :D )

@fpp: We could just leech the logo, but that brings up the question of all sorts of legal issues. What we should do is replace the non-free parts of the logo with a free logo!

[Benson]

Actually, I've just realized that I want a maemo.org "Fixed in Fremantle" T-shirt. The maemo.org redesign better bring with it a store from which I can make such a purchase.

Heh. I'd actually buy (and wear) one.

[qole]

Hmm, the community shirt would say, "Fixed in MER"

[fpp]

(Sorry, have to painfully extend the metaphor. :D )
@fpp: We could just leech the logo, but that brings up the question of all sorts of legal issues. What we should do is replace the non-free parts of the logo with a free logo!

Wait, you mean the logo ain't LGPL like QT ?...

[lcuk]

based on performance around here, version 12 of the tshirt will include an umbrella, a food dispenser (for giraffes under 4 foot only) and will also feature flashing lights to guide lost planes down ;)


agreed though, make the t-shirt.

i'll have one.

[qole]

....well, if you're involved, lcuk, it will be a bacon dispenser...

[daperl]

"Nokia went to Fremantle and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"

[lcuk]

mmmmmmmmmmm bacon

http://liqbase.net/liq.20090115_233206.gary.scr.png