View Full Version : "Newbie" forum?
TrueJournals
03-29-2009, 11:20 PM
I think it'd be better to have a separate thread to discuss this, rather than hijacking another thread, so...
Do we really need the "Newbie" forum? I understand the point of having somewhere that people who don't know much can post simple questions, and not get flamed, but I think this attitude should be carried through all the forums. Besides, it's quite easy to tell if someone is a newbie or not: look at the post and thanks count.
I'd rather see this forum converted to something like "Pre-purchase" or "Pre-device" -- a place for people to ask questions about the tablets/maemo before they purchase/receive a tablet. This keeps it similar to the "Newbie" theme, but gives the forum a more defined purpose. "Newbie" is much too vague and could be anything.
On top of all this, I see newbie as having somewhat of a negative connotation. Yes, everyone has to start somewhere, but it seems like saying "You idiots go play over there, while the rest of us have a good time over here."
Anyway, that's just my two cents.
I basically agree. It might be enough having a sticky topic with the word 'Newbie' in the General forum where newcomers would be pointed to the generic user documentation and wiki pages and would be encouraged to Just Ask. The General forum would be offered as default placeholder in case of doubt, and we would move the threads to better locations, if any.
In fact the best favor we can make to newcomers is better official and community documentation, editing and linking to it whenever somebody asks. Most newbies have similar questions, searching answers through long threads is not easy and for most having to ask (in English etc) is already an entry barrier.
Any objections to proceed as proposed, create the "Newbie" sticky topic under General and move the Newbie forum to Old?
daperl
04-06-2009, 02:39 AM
My $.02:
Stickies in General seem fine, but if you want something higher up how about phrases that people are already used to when they open new toys:
Read this First
Open this First
Start Here
Welcome to the Exciting New World of...
Congratulations on your New Purchase
In general, General is too general.
Now there is Welcome to the Internet Tablet Talk forums (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27900), which falls in one of your categories. Any suggestions improving the title or content of that sticky topic are welcome.
Un27Pee
04-06-2009, 03:46 AM
I will consider myself a Newbie in Linux, but this is how i see it, prior to my purchase i first joined this forum to find all the answers i needed then two months later i bought my N810, the SEARCH has been my companion, now when we talk of newbies how do we define it? Linux newbie, general computing newbie, Tablet device Newbie, what exactly, many people are new to Linux but not new to mobile devise usage so if we want to facilitate and encourage newbies let's clearly define what is what and properly ARRANGE the forums as to Allow the Search to function properly and we would not have to create a newbie sub forum. I remember Someone recently joined the forum and his first post was needing help because he was porting a particular useful app to the Tablet, is he a newbie or what so please make the Search button BIG and people will use it to find already answered questions.
let's clearly define what is what and properly ARRANGE the forums
If you have specific suggestions for improvement please share them in this thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27420).
as to Allow the Search to function properly
Did you find any problem with the search? It's located in the top navigation bar and I would say it is easy to find.
Un27Pee
04-06-2009, 05:22 PM
Since i only use the new posts did not see the arrangements already made sorry, it was difficult searchings for articles then.
for the search button i was suggesting a button like a space bar used on most websites you type in your question enter and you get quick results that is why Google is successful making search easier, it took me some time to discover the search button i always did my search from Google which led me to a specific post in this thread.
My earlier post was not well worded sorry.
Now that we have the sticky topic READ THIS before posting a new thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27900) I think we can go and proceed moving the Newbie thread to Old (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=34).
I will request this to Reggie tomorrow unless someone has a good reason here to stop the move.
Now that we have the sticky topic READ THIS before posting a new thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27900) I think we can go and proceed moving the Newbie thread to Old (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=34).
I will request this to Reggie tomorrow unless someone has a good reason here to stop the move.Who are you asking? people from maemo.org? or the people on this forum? The people on this forum have countless times asked for more consideration to casual users, and here you propose to delete the "Newbie" forum as well as "Tablet 101"?? Don't you maemo guys have hundreds of other things to do? Why so much attention to changing the forum??
The objection to the term "newbie" is noted; that can be addressed by changing Newbie to Beginner.
I'm asking people of this forum, of course. If you read TrueJournals initial post (and he is not a 'maemo guy' in the sense you put it for what I know) and my comment #2 you will see that the reason to propose the deprecation of the Newbie forum is precisely "more consideration to casual users".
Why so much attention to changing the forum? I'm no less 'ITt guy' than you (specially on a bank holiday at night), I spend a lot of time following and taking part in this forum and I just try to help. Some core contributors said Thanks in the initial posts and before you nobody seemed to oppose frontally to the proposal.
Reggie has the last word, as usual.
GeneralAntilles
04-13-2009, 05:32 PM
Who are you asking? people from maemo.org? or the people on this forum? The people on this forum have countless times asked for more consideration to casual users, and here you propose to delete the "Newbie" forum as well as "Tablet 101"?? Don't you maemo guys have hundreds of other things to do? Why so much attention to changing the forum??
A question for you. Why so much hostility to people you perceive as "outsiders" when, in fact, they're really core contributors to this forum who have been around for many, many years?
hordeman
04-13-2009, 05:33 PM
Ok, I'm a little late to the party --- only because I just saw this thread ---, but I think a "newbie" forum is needed. Heck, even I would still use it to ask "newbie" questions safely without being flamed. Remember that newbies are more likely to ask first, read later. You take away that place for them to ask, then they are still likely to ask before reading the sticky. Moving it all into a sticky pretty much sends the message of, "We're not newbies here and newbies aren't welcome; so, read up on this sticky so you become one of us --- which is someone who is not a newbie." It's like expecting a baby to be an adult by handing them a book and saying, "Here, read this first before asking me anything." Babies instead need their crib to grow in first. ;) That's just my 2 cents.
YoDude
04-13-2009, 05:39 PM
Wow! I Must have the worst luck... yesterday on my holiday I put together a pretty complex post in hopes of showing to some a strength of the NIT's that is not discussed much. The thing is, after all the recent changes I wasn't sure where to post so I read the sticky that was provided.
In it it said something to the effect that to think of the newbie forum as a "gateway" and that threads posted there will more than likely be moved later.
I posted my thread in the "newbie" forum because of this. Now I no longer see any reference in this (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27900) sticky to the forum, find that the new thread about HTML and custom browser pages has been moved to the "developer" forum , and the "newbie" forum will no longer be used.
When do you expect most of this reorganization to be complete...
YoDude
04-13-2009, 05:53 PM
Ok, I'm a little late to the party --- only because I just saw this thread ---, but I think a "newbie" forum is needed. Heck, even I would still use it to ask "newbie" questions safely without being flamed. Remember that newbies are more likely to ask first, read later. You take away that place for them to ask, then they are still likely to ask before reading the sticky. Moving it all into a sticky pretty much sends the message of, "We're not newbies here and newbies aren't welcome; so, read up on this sticky so you become one of us --- which is someone who is not a newbie." It's like expecting a baby to be an adult by handing them a book and saying, "Here, read this first before asking me anything." Babies instead need their crib to grow in first. ;) That's just my 2 cents.
Pretty good 2 dude. It's another way to look at it.
From what I have seen here is that members have gone out of there way in the past to be hospitable and welcoming to new members. Some are downright protective...all this is a good thing IMHO.
What I think I'm reading from you is that some new members may feel more comfortable in an area where they can get there feet wet first and that the term "Newbie" to some is not necessarily a bad thing.
hordeman
04-13-2009, 06:26 PM
Pretty good 2 dude. It's another way to look at it.
From what I have seen here is that members have gone out of there way in the past to be hospitable and welcoming to new members. Some are downright protective...all this is a good thing IMHO.
What I think I'm reading from you is that some new members may feel more comfortable in an area where they can get there feet wet first and that the term "Newbie" to some is not necessarily a bad thing.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm getting at. :) Totally understand that a lot of us are welcoming of newbies --- which is not the norm on a lot of boards. So, because newbies may not know this, they will tend to gravitate to the "newbie" section where they feel safe asking questions without fear of getting flamed.
GeneralAntilles
04-13-2009, 06:37 PM
So, because newbies may not know this, they will tend to gravitate to the "newbie" section where they feel safe asking questions without fear of getting flamed.
So, I generally see two problems with the Newbie forum. The first, since it's so broad and non-specific, it tends to end up as a catch-all forum that mostly leads to increased moderatoration overhead. The second, is that it tends to lead to some empty threads which clutter up google searches and make it harder for people to find the information they need (the Ubuntu forums are a good example of this).
The idea of having a newbie forum where stupid questions can be asked without getting flamed may be somewhat successful in practice, but it implies that it's OK to flame people elsewhere in the forums (which is wrong) and that newbies are guaranteed to be flamed if they don't post the Newbie forum (which is also wrong).
If entirely removing the Newbie isn't an acceptable option, what about compromising by moving it to a stickied thread in General? It solves the google clutter issue fairly effectively, reduces its catch-all nature a bit, and still provides a place for newbies to feel comfortable. It also makes it easier both for people interested in involving themselves in those help sections and for people who want to avoid them.
TrueJournals
04-13-2009, 07:31 PM
First of all, qgil is right. I'm not a maemo.org guy, or ITt guy... just a guy :D I see that the forum's making a lot of changes, so I just like to throw my two cents in here and there.
The problem with the Newbie forum, as I see it, is, as GeneralAntilles said, that it's WAY too vague. However, I have a different reason for having this problem with it. This leads to posts that could contain some useful information, but get lost, locked away forever in the "Newbie" forum. It's just too much of an "anything goes" forum, and that makes it more difficult for people to get into the forum, and get involved.
I've already come up with my own solution: change it to pre-purchase/pre-device. This keeps a place open for questions that may seem silly to those who already have a tablet, and opens up a new place for people wondering "Will a tablet do what I need it to?" Hopefully, this would end up being a useful forum, and not just a "OMG N8X0 IS BETTAH THAN TEH IPOD TOUCH!!!11!!one!!!", but I have no doubt that those threads would show up.
GeneralAntilles: I'm not sure if I'm reading your suggestion right. You're suggesting to make a Newbie thread in the general section, where all Newbie questions should go? The problem with this, as I understand it, is this: people often get confused on the meaning of "Newbie" (this is a major problem in the current Newbie forum, developer/advanced topics also show up there). Having advanced topics in this thread would create more moderator overhead, and just make things more confusing.
I'm not saying I have the best solution. I think there are problems with all solutions, and you end up just picking the one with the best side-effects, and least number of downsides. Perhaps changing the name of the forum to "Beginner" would help, even. I still just think that the term "Newbie" has a negative connotation, and it's hard to get away from using for some people. Instead of having a place where it's OK to ask simple questions and not get flamed, the whole forum should be this way.
I'm asking people of this forum, of course. If you read TrueJournals initial post (and he is not a 'maemo guy' in the sense you put it for what I know) and my comment #2 you will see that the reason to propose the deprecation of the Newbie forum is precisely "more consideration to casual users".
Why so much attention to changing the forum? I'm no less 'ITt guy' than you (specially on a bank holiday at night), I spend a lot of time following and taking part in this forum and I just try to help. Some core contributors said Thanks in the initial posts and before you nobody seemed to oppose frontally to the proposal.
Reggie has the last word, as usual.There you go again. You are clearly a maemo guy (not that there's anything wrong with that btw), but you try to pass it off as if it's TrueJournals (who I wasn't even referring to) and as if this thread is the only thing you are aware of regarding the newbie forum. There are other discussions regarding the newbie forum in which you participated, but you don't acknowledge those in your post. It's reminiscent of the poll where the no change option was forgotten, and the mistake wasn't corrected even when it was promptly pointed out.
It's become apparent that there is recent attention to changing the forum right before it moves to maemo.org. You have been posting increasingly about the forums and people do respond to those posts. Of course you are helping - it's the "just" part that I find curious.
GeneralAntilles
04-13-2009, 08:22 PM
It's reminiscent of the poll where the no change option was forgotten, and the mistake wasn't corrected even when it was promptly pointed out.
You can't edit polls after they've been created. Why do you see conspiracy everywhere?
TrueJournals
04-13-2009, 08:30 PM
There you go again. You are clearly a maemo guy (not that there's anything wrong with that btw), but you try to pass it off as if it's TrueJournals (who I wasn't even referring to) and as if this thread is the only thing you are aware of regarding the newbie forum. There are other discussions regarding the newbie forum in which you participated, but you don't acknowledge those in your post. It's reminiscent of the poll where the no change option was forgotten, and the mistake wasn't corrected even when it was promptly pointed out.
Sorry, I'm just seeing a lot of hostility here... I was the one who posted this thread. It was completely my idea, no outside influence. I actually haven't seen any other threads talking about the Newbie forum and whether to keep it or not. I just saw that change was happening, and this was something, in my opinion, that should change. Don't be rude to qgil for discussing this. He even proposed his own solution. Now is the discussion, and then we try to find the best solution.
Also, the "No change" thing has been beaten to death. Can we please drop these petty arguments and get back on topic? If you don't like a proposal, and have reasons for that, state them, and they'll be considered just like every other opinion.
And, as has been said before, it basically comes down to what Reggie thinks is best. He's the one you have to convince, not us (however... convincing us doesn't hurt :D)
First of all, qgil is right. I'm not a maemo.org guy, or ITt guy... just a guy :D I see that the forum's making a lot of changes, so I just like to throw my two cents in here and there.
The problem with the Newbie forum, as I see it, is, as GeneralAntilles said, that it's WAY too vague. However, I have a different reason for having this problem with it. This leads to posts that could contain some useful information, but get lost, locked away forever in the "Newbie" forum. It's just too much of an "anything goes" forum, and that makes it more difficult for people to get into the forum, and get involved.
I've already come up with my own solution: change it to pre-purchase/pre-device. This keeps a place open for questions that may seem silly to those who already have a tablet, and opens up a new place for people wondering "Will a tablet do what I need it to?" Hopefully, this would end up being a useful forum, and not just a "OMG N8X0 IS BETTAH THAN TEH IPOD TOUCH!!!11!!one!!!", but I have no doubt that those threads would show up.
I'm not saying I have the best solution. I think there are problems with all solutions, and you end up just picking the one with the best side-effects, and least number of downsides. Perhaps changing the name of the forum to "Beginner" would help, even. I still just think that the term "Newbie" has a negative connotation, and it's hard to get away from using for some people. Instead of having a place where it's OK to ask simple questions and not get flamed, the whole forum should be this way.I never thought of you as a maemo guy (not that that's bad btw). And it seems you've seen the same increase in changes that I have.
I agree about the negative connotation with "newbie". The pre-purchase/beginner forum is more an attempt to categorize threads, than to constrain the conduct in the forum. (All forums should be nice to newbies.) the exact scope of the forum is not easy, but I don't see it as possibly being any more vague than the "general" forum. (A beginner/advanced justaposition makes more sense). My preference would be to say no command line stuff or anything that necessitates root access, but that's me. And there should not be reference material in there that other people (besides other beginners) would want to know about it. And of course this may all be moot...
hordeman
04-13-2009, 08:59 PM
I think the word "Newbie" is universal and self-explanatory; so, I'm not sure if "newbies" know what "pre-purchase/pre-device" means.
Also, I think having a newbie catch-all forum is okay. Again, I see it like baby in their crib :) --- where they do everything: eat, sleep, play, go potty (in diapers), etc. The crib is the catch-all for a human being, but as we grow into adults, we go into the kitchen for food, bathroom for potty, office for work, etc. Same thing for the "newbie" forum; do it all there for starters and then grow into using other specific forum sections.
To GeneralAntilles point, if the newbie forum is something that can't be agreed on, then we should look into a compromise. Maybe any newbie question need to include the tag "newbie". That way, the thread topic ends up in the right place, but users also see that it is newbie related.
BTW, OMG N8X0 IS BETTAH THAN TEH IPOD TOUCH!!!11!!one!!! ;)
TrueJournals
04-13-2009, 09:08 PM
The problem with the catch-all Newbie forum is that some people never grow out of it. This thread (http://internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28190), which talks about making an installable package (deb) for the tablets, was originally in the Newbie thread. It was then moved to the Development thread, a much more appropriate place. Most Newbies wouldn't know what a deb is, and care even less about how to package one.
Overall, the goal has changed from just removing the term "Newbie" to moving things where they belong and making every forum Newbie-friendly. I think SD69 also has a good suggestion: define very carefully what should be allowed in a "Beginners" forum: no command-line. The problem with that is a Newbie might not necessarily know that you have to use the CLI for something, and anyone would then be forced to answer the thread with "You can't do that," which doesn't help the new people learn and move on to the advanced forum.
sjgadsby
04-13-2009, 09:49 PM
...define very carefully what should be allowed in a "Beginners" forum: no command-line. The problem with that is a Newbie might not necessarily know that you have to use the CLI for something, and anyone would then be forced to answer the thread with "You can't do that," which doesn't help the new people learn and move on to the advanced forum.
This echos some of the discussion that took place when Tablet Scene was announced (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22578). We've since seen how segregating newbies to their own site turned out, and I wonder if that provides any lessons in terms of a separate newbie forum here.
YoDude
04-13-2009, 10:18 PM
YO!
As I was trying to say in my first post in this thread... for whatever reason, when a change is made, please announce it first. Leave the announcement up afterwords for awhile pretty please.
I read the original sticky and like a good soldier did as I was instructed. Unfortunately a change was made while I was doing my thing. Now there is no mention of the original instructions and I feel like I'm in an episode of the Twilight Zone.
(The back and forth bickering in the background BTW, gives it a Sydney Pollack kind of feel.) :D
For the record the "gateway" logic that I can no longer cite seemed sound to me. With all the changes lately it may have helped a mod by keeping new threads in one place. The author would then see where the mod moved it and perhaps learn enough to post in the correct forum the next time... So I was thinkin'
Overall, the goal has changed from just removing the term "Newbie" to moving things where they belong and making every forum Newbie-friendly. I think SD69 also has a good suggestion: define very carefully what should be allowed in a "Beginners" forum: no command-line. The problem with that is a Newbie might not necessarily know that you have to use the CLI for something, and anyone would then be forced to answer the thread with "You can't do that," which doesn't help the new people learn and move on to the advanced forum.Perhaps an answer in that situation could be "You can't do that without using the command line (which is too advanced for beginners)" or to move the thread to the appropriate forum.
> Heck, even I would still use it to ask "newbie" questions safely without being flamed.
Not having a Newbie Safe Area forces all posters of all threads in all forums to be nice to newbies. Flames are bad no matter where and who is the target.
Actually I don't see this problem with flames to newbies here, and not even the other myth of answering newbies with command line instructions. Rude language is sometimes exchanged between members with hundreds of posts on their backs, and use of CLI (using acronym as pun intended) is shown mostly in threads that are clearly for advanced users, or to trigger a symptom or solution where no GUI will help anymore.
> Remember that newbies are more likely to ask first, read later.
Those would go to General (as a percentage already do) and from there we would redirect to the right place (as we are doing already).
> It's like expecting a baby to be an adult by...
You can turn this omelette by saying that there is plenty of places in the Internet that welcome huge amounts of newbies every day without the need of having a Newbie corner. They just have a good architecture able to make happy newcomers and regular users.
Real architecture had this problem too. First there were not buildings welcoming people using wheelchairs. Then they patched special accesses for weelchairs on those buildings. Now buildings of organizations caring about weelchair users are designed with common accesses making happy everybody.
> Babies instead need their crib to grow in first.
Maemo runs on devices targeted to heavy Internet users. This is the norm we can expect here.
> In it it said something to the effect that to think of the newbie forum as a "gateway"
> and that threads posted there will more than likely be moved later.
It was edited as a result of another discussion (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28109). Now it says
The General forum is only for those topics that don't really fit in any other. Choose it in case of doubt.
Which is more or less the same.
> When do you expect most of this reorganization to be complete...
It could be done pretty fast if there would be a benevolent dictator pushing the changes without discussing much. But this is not the situation we have, so we are discussing here the changes giving the chance to anybody to have a say.
The more we discuss the more it will take to complete the changes. This is a known handicap of participative systems.
> what about compromising by moving it to a stickied thread in General?
Not very useful compromise in my opinion. Offering the General forum as default basket for hesitant posters and moderating those posts moving them where corresponds is much better for everybody.
> There are other discussions regarding the newbie forum in which you participated,
> but you don't acknowledge those in your post.
Mmm ok, I still don't see what is your issue exactly. But yes, because I care about newbies and because the new maemo.org with ITt inside needs to be a nice place for newbies I have been trying to help going ahead with changes. For what I recall:
- Tablet Scene should be put out of it's Missery (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27272) was started by 'ITt guys' and after dozens of posts it ended up with no conclusion. Yet the problem was/is still there, and growing. So I'm trying to push a resolution asking to Krisse/Reggie whether they want to hold it back and maintain it or we can drop it.
- I also asked Krisse whether she had any interest moving the discontinued Tablet School to school.maemo.org, by the way.
Where else? In Forum reorg pointing to talk.maemo.org (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27420) I wasn't the first one suggesting the deprecation of the Newbie forum (nor was any 'maemo guy') and actually I thought it was good to keep it initially. After almost a month moving threads from Newbie to elsewhere I'm certain most of those threads are no different from any others started in other forums, and actually many of them are not started by newbies at all.
> It's reminiscent of the poll where the no change option was forgotten
I don't have anything to do with that. Actually I haven't voted because I don't find the current status so bad. But this is not relevant at all: if someone is willing to push that discussion with the aim of making this a better forum, fair enough and thank you for your time.
> It's become apparent that there is recent attention to changing the forum right
> before it moves to maemo.org.
Reggie would go ahead alone with more disruptive changes in the past, as founder and administrator of ITt. Now he is busy and his responsibilities were taken by nobody. In the meantime the talk.maemo.org plan was proposed and accepted. ITt would be today talk.maemo.org already if it wouldn't be because the maemo.org redesign is taking longer than expected.
Yes, I have been active in all these processes. In a quite transparent way. My goal is probably your goal as well: to have a place where the Maemo community can discuss, help each other and have fun. Being a good entry point for newcomers is an essential factor of success.
If the plans go ahead, Fremantle and Harmattan will increase exponentially the amount of newcomers coming to this forum. This is a key reason why I'm interested in paying a better attention to newbies, as part of my job (like now, in office hours) and also as a proud volunteer in this community (like most of my posts here, sent from home and late night).
> "pre-purchase/pre-device" forum
Normally a potential buyer goes after a specific device, and we have one forum for each device. This is why I think it's better to have those posts in the devices forums. Also, a pre-purchase question & its answers is very likely good information for many owners of such device. The same happens if the question is about software.
> I read the original sticky and like a good soldier did as I was instructed.
> Unfortunately a change was made while I was doing my thing. Now there
> is no mention of the original instructions and I feel like I'm in an episode
> of the Twilight Zone.
You will survive, will you? :) With the previous policy your thread was moved and with the new policy you thread has been moved as well to the same location. A big deal?
Again, slow progress with hiccups is a known side effect of partipatory systems. Sorry for the road works and please move on.
I will wait for more feedback before asking Reggie to do anything with the newbie forum...
Jobester
04-14-2009, 03:29 AM
YO!
As I was trying to say in my first post in this thread... for whatever reason, when a change is made, please announce it first. Leave the announcement up afterwords for awhile pretty please.
I read the original sticky and like a good soldier did as I was instructed. Unfortunately a change was made while I was doing my thing. Now there is no mention of the original instructions and I feel like I'm in an episode of the Twilight Zone.
(The back and forth bickering in the background BTW, gives it a Sydney Pollack kind of feel.) :D
For the record the "gateway" logic that I can no longer cite seemed sound to me. With all the changes lately it may have helped a mod by keeping new threads in one place. The author would then see where the mod moved it and perhaps learn enough to post in the correct forum the next time... So I was thinkin'
This maemo.org subforum could probably use a sticky, and if there are going to be more changes that would be a good place for a changelog and list of links to more change discussions?
This maemo.org subforum could probably use a sticky, and if there are going to be more changes that would be a good place for a changelog and list of links to more change discussions?
It's not that we have dozens of discussions ongoing and spread all over the forum. Isn't enough just follow the maemo.org forum if you are interested in these discussions?
Not having a Newbie Safe Area forces all posters of all threads in all forums to be nice to newbies.
I'm not following you here as to "forces". I don't think there is a problem that newbies are singled out and flamed. The objective from my pov is categorization of threads by subject matter, not to guide conduct which should be the same across all forums.
You can turn this omelette by saying that there is plenty of places in the Internet that welcome huge amounts of newbies every day without the need of having a Newbie corner. They just have a good architecture able to make happy newcomers and regular users.But many of these forums are not part of a developer centric organization, which is what I see when I look at newstyle.maemo.org. The news are all developer related items, as are the announcements and events. If you click on "Intro" button, you get a developer minded page. Most Internet forums are stand alone and dominated by regular users or enthusiasts. I think, in our case, because of the maemo.org environment, a different structure than most forums should be used to reach out to newbies and regular users.
Real architecture had this problem too. First there were not buildings welcoming people using wheelchairs. Then they patched special accesses for weelchairs on those buildings. Now buildings of organizations caring about weelchair users are designed with common accesses making happy everybody.But here you are advocating helping newbies by removing the newbie forum? Would you help handicapped people by removing the handicap ramps?
Yes, I have been active in all these processes. In a quite transparent way. My goal is probably your goal as well: to have a place where the Maemo community can discuss, help each other and have fun. Being a good entry point for newcomers is an essential factor of success. We have the same goal in this respect. Where would you say the entry point for newcomers will be if the newbie forum is removed?
GeneralAntilles
04-14-2009, 06:54 AM
But here you are advocating helping newbies by removing the newbie forum? Would you help handicapped people by removing the handicap ramps?
I think you ought to go back and re-read the analogy.
The objective from my pov is categorization of threads by subject matter, not to guide conduct which should be the same across all forums.
As said, after moving every single new Newbie thread to a better destination I don't see such "Newbie" categorization really exists. Newbies post also in General, N810 and other forums. Many threads starting in Newbies are posted by people that actually are no newbies at all. This is the reality we have now.
But many of these forums are not part of a developer centric organization, which is what I see when I look at newstyle.maemo.org. The news are all developer related items, as are the announcements and events. If you click on "Intro" button, you get a developer minded page. Most Internet forums are stand alone and dominated by regular users or enthusiasts. I think, in our case, because of the maemo.org environment, a different structure than most forums should be used to reach out to newbies and regular users.
It's maemo.org what needs to be improved to receive end users (and not just newbies) better.
- We need to talk about how to expand the planet (which nurtures the news you see in the frontpage).
- We started discussing about Announcements that should not only be posted by Nokia employees about developer related stuff.
- The Intro can be radically changed as soon as maemo.nokia.com and Forum Nokia cover the description of the Maemo platform and its main features.
And more, I agree. Keeping a Newbie forum doesn't solve the problems you are detecting, really.
But here you are advocating helping newbies by removing the newbie forum? Would you help handicapped people by removing the handicap ramps?
No, as explained in the analogy. Luckily the virtual architecture is easier to fix than the one made of brick and mortar.
We have the same goal in this respect. Where would you say the entry point for newcomers will be if the newbie forum is removed?
No matter what, the entry points are Google and whatever URL comes in the box. I don't expect the Newbie forum to rank high and in its absence I believe newbies are going to post in General.
YoDude
04-14-2009, 08:17 AM
...I read the original sticky and like a good soldier did as I was instructed.
Unfortunately a change was made while I was doing my thing. Now there is no mention of the original instructions and I feel like I'm in an episode of the Twilight Zone.
You will survive, will you? With the previous policy your thread was moved and with the new policy you thread has been moved as well to the same location. A big deal?
Oh yeah, I'll survive... What you quoted from me above is not a big deal.
Choosing not to respond to a reasonable request like this... ... for whatever reason, when a change is made, please announce it first. Leave the announcement up afterwords for awhile pretty please. ...for good or ill, could be a big deal to both veteran and newbie alike.
BTW, individual thread views drop dramatically each time a thread is moved. Therefore the longer a thread stays in one place, the more views it receives. The statement I started in this thread with Wow! I Must have the worst luck... refers to my posting of a new thread. It was moved with-in hours.
Could an announcement or "Read this" sticky be placed in the old "Newbie" forum at least. I just answered a question in there for a new user...
No one likes to feel they are wasting their time. :)
As said, after moving every single new Newbie thread to a better destination I don't see such "Newbie" categorization really exists. Newbies post also in General, N810 and other forums. Many threads starting in Newbies are posted by people that actually are no newbies at all. This is the reality we have now.
You will always have some people posting threads in the wrong place.
It's maemo.org what needs to be improved to receive end users (and not just newbies) better.
- We need to talk about how to expand the planet (which nurtures the news you see in the frontpage).
- We started discussing about Announcements that should not only be posted by Nokia employees about developer related stuff.
- The Intro can be radically changed as soon as maemo.nokia.com and Forum Nokia cover the description of the Maemo platform and its main features.
And more, I agree. Keeping a Newbie forum doesn't solve the problems you are detecting, really.
I concur about maemo.org w/o detailed comments. I comment at length about the forum because I feel I have contributed over the years. As to maemo.org, I'll leave it to you maemo guys. ;)
hordeman
04-14-2009, 10:41 AM
This echos some of the discussion that took place when Tablet Scene was announced (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22578). We've since seen how segregating newbies to their own site turned out, and I wonder if that provides any lessons in terms of a separate newbie forum here.
The issue with TS isn't so much segregation as it is creating overabundance/ surplus. We not only had the newbie site, but a newbie forum here as well --- 2x. Newbies continued to use the forum here instead of being redirected to TS; so, something had to "give", and in the end, it was TS.
See:
http://www.tabletscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187
http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27272
geneven
04-14-2009, 11:14 AM
Here's a suggestion that will undoubtedly be rejected immediately, but I will make it anyway. Actually, two suggestions:
1) How about amnesty for all users? There wouldn't be need for a Newbie area if people with supposedly dumb questions or who hadn't searched enough weren't treated with contempt. (My unofficial observation is that most users criticized for not searching protest that they DID search -- and I believe they did, just ineffectively.)
2) How about an area colorfully named "free-fire zone"? This would be an area for short easy questions. The thing is, it would be announced at the top of the area that ALL q's and their answers would be deleted after a couple of days.
The purpose of the free-fire zone would be to allow people to post their dumb questions with the understanding that they wouldn't be taken overly seriously -- just answer the damn question. It would be a fun experiment, even if it didn't work. It would be a longer lasting version of a chat session. People could keep an eye on the free-fire zone and items that deserved to be permanent would be moved to the wiki or someplace.
hordeman
04-14-2009, 12:59 PM
2) How about an area colorfully named "free-fire zone"? This would be an area for short easy questions. The thing is, it would be announced at the top of the area that ALL q's and their answers would be deleted after a couple of days.
I would definitely go for this, but my understanding of the goal of this new forum structure is to remove the "catch-alls".
Choosing not to respond to a reasonable request like this... ...for good or ill, could be a big deal to both veteran and newbie alike.
Keep a changelog of ongoing discussions about changes? What about discussing, deciding and executing the changes, leaving the forums in peace after that? :)
Could an announcement or "Read this" sticky be placed in the old "Newbie" forum at least. I just answered a question in there for a new user...
If you want to write one... I'm still for moving the forum to Old as soon as possible.
1) How about amnesty for all users? There wouldn't be need for a Newbie area if people with supposedly dumb questions or who hadn't searched enough weren't treated with contempt. (My unofficial observation is that most users criticized for not searching protest that they DID search -- and I believe they did, just ineffectively.)
This is fully in line with the proposal of rmoving the Newbie forum and being friendly with newbies everywhere. +1
2) How about an area colorfully named "free-fire zone"? This would be an area for short easy questions. The thing is, it would be announced at the top of the area that ALL q's and their answers would be deleted after a couple of days.
Do you find appealing to answer the same questions every now and then? Anyway, why not starting a sticky thread in General and see if it works? And then creating a forum only if th traffic justifies it.
YoDude
04-14-2009, 04:36 PM
Keep a changelog of ongoing discussions about changes? What about discussing, deciding and executing the changes, leaving the forums in peace after that? :)
If you want to write one... I'm still for moving the forum to Old as soon as possible.
This is fully in line with the proposal of rmoving the Newbie forum and being friendly with newbies everywhere. +1
Do you find appealing to answer the same questions every now and then? Anyway, why not starting a sticky thread in General and see if it works? And then creating a forum only if th traffic justifies it.
Do what you want dude... I only asked that you use the tools available to you. (Edit: If not, please see link provided below.) You can post 1 announcement that sticks to the top of every forum and I can't. That's all.
If you don't want to hear it you could always close these threads or move them to the trash.
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=104714
The important thing is not what can be technically done, but who commits to do it. And does it.
Do you want those announcements? Go for them. fwiw I don't have permissions to install them either.
Do you want a sticky for the Newbie forum? Post a new thread there and I will make it sticky.
It's not that I'm here bored without knowing what to do... ;)
YoDude & many other posters in this thread: you have been here for more than a year, you have posted hundreds of times and you have received hundreds of Thanks. You could request moderator permissions and get directly involved, choosing your tasks and going for them.
YoDude
04-15-2009, 07:18 AM
The important thing is not what can be technically done, but who commits to do it. And does it.
Do you want those announcements? Go for them. fwiw I don't have permissions to install them either.
Do you want a sticky for the Newbie forum? Post a new thread there and I will make it sticky.
It's not that I'm here bored without knowing what to do... ;)
YoDude & many other posters in this thread: you have been here for more than a year, you have posted hundreds of times and you have received hundreds of Thanks. You could request moderator permissions and get directly involved, choosing your tasks and going for them.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!
(banging head against the wall)
I don't care what you call the forums or where you move the threads and yet my request gets lumped into those resistant to this change.
All I asked was that if YOU make a substantial change to a policy YOU posted to please acknowledge this change somewhere.
Even if it is strike through tags in the original post, then at the very least someone who is caught in the middle of this debate (as I apparently was when I posted a new thread) will not end up banging their head against the wall. :)
Ah sorry, now I understand you. All I did was posting a heads up in the Stiky draft thread wherwe such sticky topic is being discussed: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28109&page=2
A difference here seems to be that you talk about policies, soldiers and announcements while I just feel these changes as part of an ongoing discussion among peers. We can go for higher formalities once the unstable period of change in this forum is over, don't you think?
Texrat
04-15-2009, 11:07 AM
Geez, missing a few months of debate here makes ME feel like a newb!
:D
sjgadsby
04-15-2009, 11:14 AM
Geez, missing a few months of debate here makes ME feel like a newb!
Do you feel you need your own forum? Does the current user title scheme on the site intimidate you? Would you like to see George Wendt eating beans in a movie?
Texrat
04-15-2009, 12:23 PM
I had my own forum once.
No.
NO.
hordeman
04-15-2009, 02:14 PM
I had my own forum once.
I think that's a yes. He had his own once and is now missing it. ;)
KristianW
04-15-2009, 08:12 PM
There is, I think, another aspect of where to post beginners questions,
and that is how to easily find them.
What I mean is:
It should not be to difficult for "newbies" to find threads they understand enough to learn from.
And for those who have passed the beginners stage and want to help,
finding questions within their capacity should not require to much searching.
I know, these are unobtainable ideals on such a varied and complex forum.
( Wikis and Tablet School are a great aid.)
Directing uncertain beginners to ask in "general" might be a good start.
Easier questions could be allowed to rest there a bit before being moved to their proper forum,
making them easy to find.
( I am thinking of the future expected increase of questions.)
Genevens idea of a "free-fire zone" might also help.
In advanced search, being able to chose between an OR and an AND search would be nice.
( or possibly I have not found out how to do that )
- - - just some thoughts from beginning to learn to use this forum.
I've learned a lot here, but it also took some searching. :)
The Newbie forum has been moved to Old.
Newbies and anybody posting a new thread are encouraged to look at the sticky topics for guidelines and links to basic and frequently asked information. In case of doubt General can be used, and moderators will move the threads to the right place if needed.
Please do help newbies posting their questions in the place and in the way that will be more useful for them to get answers.
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2013, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.