Idle Speculation [Archive] - maemo.org

lemmyslender

04-20-2009, 08:55 AM

Just thought I'd open a thread for idle speculation on the upcoming tablets. It seems as though the biggest complaint I see in most of the other threads is that speculation/arguments has taken them off-topic. So here is a thread for precisely that.

It seems to me that there are 3 types of development:

1) Closed: Little/No information released. Speculation is mainly fictional, no facts to be based on. Obviously the favorite method of development, works well.

2) Open: All/Most information is available. Speculation can be easily dealt with, either by referencing available information or by releasing necessary information.

3) Semi-open: Current approach with the tablets.

I think that Nokia was unprepared for the amount of speculation surrounding the new tablets. Obviously, Nokia wants community involvement with the tablets. Otherwise, they would no be releasing alpha/beta sdk and as much information as they already have. They also wouldn't be sponsoring the forums in the future.

However, it seems that Nokia had hoped that as information/sdk was released, most of the feedback would be positive. In reality, it appears that there is a significant amount of less that positive feedback/concerns. At this point, Nokia doesn't seem to have a process in place to address these concerns. *Not that they have to address any of them at all, it is their choice.*

This has lead to frustration for the community regarding lack of / incomplete / unclear / vague / scattered (blogs, mailing lists, irc, roadmaps, etc) information and lack of feedback on feedback. It has also lead to frustration (I assume) on the part of the good folks from Nokia who are also part of the community, but unable to comment on many concerns.

Hopefully, we can all learn from this experience and in the future create a better experience for all concerned.

Any way here is a thread for all that idle speculation that would otherwise take other threads off-topic

daperl

04-20-2009, 09:52 AM

GeneralAntilles

04-20-2009, 09:56 AM

I didn't add "built-in stand" to this list because I'm giving Nokia the benefit of the doubt that new products will by similar to the N97 where the keyboard doubles as the stand. But in time, that will go too.

There's a regular kickstand on the next unit, mce has dbus definitions for "on stand".

Anyway, really, I still think the reasonable thing to do is to reserve your final judgement until you get to use the real product.

Jaffa

04-20-2009, 10:03 AM

The only interesting thing to me about speculating is the why.

Of course, speculation as to why is only possible when we're 100% sure of what. Which is after an announcement.

Removal of dpad from outside case
Removal of stylus and stylus holder from product
Removal of stylus keyboard from application framework
Eventual removal of resistive touch screen

At least two of these are speculation flying in the face of very strong hints from qgil (i.e. the stylus ain't going anywhere (yet?), and it still has several use cases)

I didn't add "built-in stand" [...] But in time, that will go too.

Hmm, first time I've heard that speculation.

daperl

04-20-2009, 10:06 AM

@Texrat

After 5700 posts my most memorable is when you, a then Nokia employee, said they need to have refreshes of both the n800 and n810. Man would I like to have a refined OMAP3 n800.

daperl

04-20-2009, 10:44 AM

I'm speculating that there will be no physical pencil-like stylus and stylus holder in, on or around the product. Has qgil said otherwise? A guitar pick dangling from a string doesn't count.

I'll comment on the stand later.

Please reread the thread title. This is speculation. My why speculation is based on actual product and forum comments from Nokia employees. I then twist them accordingly. The "no why before what" comment made no sense to me.

eiffel

04-20-2009, 10:45 AM

There's a regular kickstand on the next unit, mce has dbus definitions for "on stand".
The definition in the code doesn't say anything about a "regular kickstand". The "on stand" position could equally well be a desk stand like the 5800:

http://blog.eches.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/nokia5800ofc07sm.jpg

Regards,
Roger

eiffel

04-20-2009, 10:49 AM

A guitar pick dangling from a string doesn't count.
It's interesting that the Nokia 5800 comes with a guitar pick dangling from a string, and a regular stylus. You can use either, both or neither. Maybe the idea of a stylus isn't completely dead at Nokia.

Regards,
Roger

daperl

04-20-2009, 10:50 AM

The definition in the code doesn't say anything about a "regular kickstand". The "on stand" position could equally well be a desk stand like the 5800:

http://blog.eches.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/nokia5800ofc07sm.jpg

Regards,
Roger

Thanks for the picture; I'll let it speak for me.

lemmyslender

04-20-2009, 11:00 AM

I believe the why and the what are both valid at this point. For instance:

It appears that there may be a video out option, what type will it be (connector, vga, tv, hdmi, etc). There is speculation as to what type of form factor will be used (slider, dual slider, etc).

It has been clearly stated that the on screen stylus keyboard has been dropped, and we are left to speculate as to why and what may become of the actual stylus as a result.

So there is room for both types of speculation.

Texrat

04-20-2009, 11:04 AM

@Texrat

After 5700 posts my most memorable is when you, a then Nokia employee, said they need to have refreshes of both the n800 and n810. Man would I like to have a refined OMAP3 n800.

Thanks. I lobbied hard for an N800 refresh... but there seemed to be a lot of inertia against it.

ragnar

04-20-2009, 12:05 PM

The only interesting thing to me about speculating is the why. And my opinion is that every reason Nokia has given or will give for the following decisions has been or will be bullsh*t. And by bullsh*t I mean that Nokia continues to sacrifice a good computing experience for a trendy one.

Removal of dpad from outside case
Removal of stylus and stylus holder from product
Removal of stylus keyboard from application framework
Eventual removal of resistive touch screen

.

Well, obviously our primary aim is to provide a good mobile user experience. It kind of depends what one means by "trendy". "Trends" can be seen as solutions that people are generally leaning towards, and as such aren't necessarily bad or good. Nobody here is trying to be "trendy", we've got better things to do.

It is possible that we don't agree on what makes a good mobile computing user experience, but it's hard to comment more before concrete product launches. Perhaps we have come back to these questions and reasonings after such an event.

Jaffa

04-20-2009, 01:07 PM

Please reread the thread title. This is speculation. My why speculation is based on actual product and forum comments from Nokia employees. I then twist them accordingly. The "no why before what" comment made no sense to me.

It annoys me to see speculation on why something had been dropped, without making it clear that you were also speculating what had been dropped.

If you said, "I think they're going to drop the stylus because a) the stylus keyboard has gone, b) the Nokia 5800 has a plectrum instead of a stylus, c) the concentration on finger-friendliness and d) a possible aim for a capactive screen" - that's what speculation.

If you then said, "I think they're doing this because Microsoft has formed a deal with green space-faring lizards to put Nokia out of business as Maemo is a threat to Windows" - that's why speculation.

The key phrases in both of these are "I think". Some things we know for certain (some things we know so well, we have to say them over and over); some things we don't. The only people who know everything don't say anything, so it's disingenuous of you to suggest you know the stylus has been dropped.

daperl

04-20-2009, 01:43 PM

Yes, sorry, you're right. I'm mixing why with what and I'm mixing speculation with fact. And then I'm mixing combinations of both. But humans are differentiating and integrating machines. And that's a big part of the reason we're so good at quick pattern and trend recognition. For better or for worse, that's the goal of my speculation. But I can start over with a different approach like:

What is something Nokia changed from the n800 to the n810?

They moved the dpad inside.

Why did they do that?

I don't know. I can't even guess because they don't know me so I'm sure it was nothing personal. If it was something personal, I would like to work it out.

What is something Nokia is changing from Maemo 4 to Maemo 5?

They're removing the stylus keyboard.

Why are they doing that?

I don't know why. They tried to tell me but I wasn't getting it. I think they hate me.

And so on and so on.

Am I getting warmer or colder? More after my break.

SD69

04-20-2009, 02:27 PM

Well, obviously our primary aim is to provide a good mobile user experience. It kind of depends what one means by "trendy". "Trends" can be seen as solutions that people are generally leaning towards, and as such aren't necessarily bad or good. Nobody here is trying to be "trendy", we've got better things to do.

It is possible that we don't agree on what makes a good mobile computing user experience, but it's hard to comment more before concrete product launches. Perhaps we have come back to these questions and reasonings after such an event.Thanks for your comments.

There is a history and context here that fairly suggests what is considered by the existing customerbase to be a "good" mobile computing user experience. I hope there there will not be a shift in the criteria for determining what is good from the existing customers that bought NITs (and who thus leaned towards one solution) to those other "people" that are generally leaning towards different solutions?

Not to rehash the discussion, but there is a lot that could be done to improve user experience without changing those aspects that distinguish the NITs from other devices. At launch, it won't merely be a matter of whether or not the user experience is then "good" and, if so, all changes are justified. The applicable questions and reasoning for some of us will be whether there was a recognizable updating or progression/evolution of the solution embodied by the NITs to remove identified deficiencies in the predecessors, or whether some of the known and existing distinguishing aspects of the NITs were instead removed in the direction of other solutions "that people are leaning towards".

http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=272041&postcount=158

mullf

04-20-2009, 07:13 PM

daperl

04-20-2009, 08:03 PM

Or a refined OMAP3 770!

I see no reason why a refreshed OMAP3 770 and a refreshed OMAP3 n800 couldn't be the same device. If you could have your protective case, how could you lose?

mullf

04-20-2009, 08:48 PM

i see no reason why a refreshed omap3 770 and a refreshed omap3 n800 couldn't be the same device. If you could have your protective case, how could you lose?

woo-hoo!!!

daperl

04-21-2009, 02:09 PM

Well, obviously our primary aim is to provide a good mobile user experience. It kind of depends what one means by "trendy". "Trends" can be seen as solutions that people are generally leaning towards, and as such aren't necessarily bad or good. Nobody here is trying to be "trendy", we've got better things to do.

Well, it's not obvious that your primary aim is to provide a good mobile experience. Providing a good mobile experience seems to be your secondary or less aim. What does seem obvious is that selling lots of product at the highest margin possible is your primary aim. Trying to provide a good mobile experience might be one way to that end, but at the moment it seems that you have nothing better to do than be "trendy." And I speculate that your board members would agree with me.

It is possible that we don't agree on what makes a good mobile computing user experience, but it's hard to comment more before concrete product launches. Perhaps we have come back to these questions and reasonings after such an event.

I disagree. We can talk about it right now. But instead of talking about future products, let's start with the past and work our way forward. I'll start:

Why after two iterations of internet tablets did you decide to remove the dpad and the menu button from the screen bezel?

GeneralAntilles

04-21-2009, 02:37 PM

Well, it's not obvious that your primary aim is to provide a good mobile experience. Providing a good mobile experience seems to be your secondary or less aim. What does seem obvious is that selling lots of product at the highest margin possible is your primary aim. Trying to provide a good mobile experience might be one way to that end, but at the moment it seems that you have nothing better to do than be "trendy." And I speculate that your board members would agree with me.

Strong words for somebody who hasn't even seen the product.

deadmalc

04-21-2009, 03:43 PM

Doesn't anyone think that getting rid of the stylus is a good thing?
Whilst the stylus is essential for the n800/n810 for a lot of web stuff, it's more
annoying having to use it.
Forcing apps to use finger touch makes it less "fiddly"

Was wondering what people actually use the dpad for, browsing etc?
Again I'd be happier if the finger touch improves and no dpad.

Maybe that's just my take on it? or am I missing the dpad/stylus usage?

daperl

04-21-2009, 03:45 PM

Strong words for somebody who hasn't even seen the product.

C'mon, you can do better than that. That's what this thread is for. Just say what you're really thinking. You'll feel better. I promise.

Den in USA

04-21-2009, 03:46 PM

daperl

04-21-2009, 03:55 PM

or am I missing the dpad/stylus usage

Completely. I'd tell you my use cases but then I'd have to kill you.

deadmalc

04-21-2009, 04:15 PM

Completely. I'd tell you my use cases but then I'd have to kill you.

Given the way people seem to rave about it maybe that would be a good trade ;-)

Jaffa

04-21-2009, 04:16 PM

Why after two iterations of internet tablets did you decide to remove the dpad and the menu button from the screen bezel?

Oooh, some "why" speculation. My go, in order of priority (IMHO):

They wanted a device which a smaller physical size, but without compromising on screen size (same for moving the speakers to the sides)
The sliding keyboard hardware made it an obvious choice for the location.
A strategy decision was taken to be more finger oriented (thus making the tablet easier to use in moving vehicles/whilst walking etc., allowing for more visually appealing/less desktopey UIs and so on), and the dpad and menu key were less useful for that.
It allows for the exterior of the device to be more aesthetically clean.
Microsoft and space-based humanoid lizards are in a secret conspiracy and delivered hypnotoads to Nokia to destroy your brain

Honestly, I think it was (1). Whatever the reason, the smaller form factor of the N810 is much more preferable to me than the bulkier N800.

daperl

04-21-2009, 04:46 PM

Oooh, some "why" speculation. My go, in order of priority (IMHO):

They wanted a device which a smaller physical size, but without compromising on screen size (same for moving the speakers to the sides)

See below.

The sliding keyboard hardware made it an obvious choice for the location.

In my opinion, more the convenient choice and less the obvious

A strategy decision was taken to be more finger oriented (thus making the tablet easier to use in moving vehicles/whilst walking etc., allowing for more visually appealing/less desktopey UIs and so on), and the dpad and menu key were less useful for that.

Yes, this reeks of trendy. It's this kind of rationalization that pisses me off.

It allows for the exterior of the device to be more aesthetically clean.

The real reason in my opinion. If so, very disappointing.

Microsoft and space-based humanoid lizards are in a secret conspiracy and delivered hypnotoads to Nokia to destroy your brain

Well, duh.

Honestly, I think it was (1). Whatever the reason, the smaller form factor of the N810 is much more preferable to me than the bulkier N800.

As I've said before, the speaker placement is genius. But there's too much waisted space on the right side. The only worthy argument, in my opinion, against an off-centered screen would be stereo imaging inaccuracies while watching videos. But that could be compensated for. Also, if aesthetics are important, shouldn't the physical keyboard be centered below the screen?

ragnar

04-21-2009, 04:55 PM

Oooh, some "why" speculation. My go, in order of priority (IMHO):

They wanted a device which a smaller physical size, but without compromising on screen size (same for moving the speakers to the sides)
The sliding keyboard hardware made it an obvious choice for the location.
A strategy decision was taken to be more finger oriented (thus making the tablet easier to use in moving vehicles/whilst walking etc., allowing for more visually appealing/less desktopey UIs and so on), and the dpad and menu key were less useful for that.
It allows for the exterior of the device to be more aesthetically clean.
Microsoft and space-based humanoid lizards are in a secret conspiracy and delivered hypnotoads to Nokia to destroy your brain

Honestly, I think it was (1). Whatever the reason, the smaller form factor of the N810 is much more preferable to me than the bulkier N800.

Pretty much accurate. Yes, it gave a smaller device. (It is not as if there is thin air inside the device on the bezels of the screen, just waiting to add components there.)

Yes, cursor movement is needed especially with text input: placing it near the other text input keys makes it more convenient, instead of always having to read for it while inputting text. Duplicating the d-pad doesn't really make sense.

Yes, it's a strategy decision, as a step towards finger usability. Not having the d-pad there forces designers to make application designs that do not rely on having the d-pad there. i.e. more finger usable application designs.

Aesthetics is in the eye of the beholder, that wasn't really a factor here (Nokia has plenty of devices with the d-pad in the cover). No to space lizards, unfortunately.

benny1967

04-21-2009, 05:00 PM

Was wondering what people actually use the dpad for, browsing etc?

press menu key, navigate through menus with d-pad.
navigate through applications.

it's the most "mobile" means of input the device offers.

daperl

04-21-2009, 05:09 PM

Pretty much accurate. Yes, it gave a smaller device. Yes, cursor movement is needed especially with text input: placing it near the other text input keys makes it more convenient, instead of always having to read for it while inputting text. Duplicating the d-pad doesn't really make sense.

Yes, it's a strategy decision, as a step towards finger usability. Not having the d-pad there forces designers to make application designs that do not rely on having the d-pad there. i.e. more finger usable application designs.

Aesthetics is in the eye of the beholder, that wasn't really a factor here (Nokia has plenty of devices with the d-pad in the cover). No to space lizards, unfortunately.

The center button on the d-pad is a duplication of the enter key. If You didn't want to duplicate the d-pad you could have had 4 arrow keys, one per row on the left. You could then have shortened the "Fn" key and the right shift key and thus made room for a menu key where it is usually found on a keyboard. And it still would have been okay to have a 2nd menu key on the screen bezel.

ragnar

04-21-2009, 05:17 PM

The center button on the d-pad is a duplication of the enter key. If You didn't want to duplicate the d-pad you could have had 4 arrow keys, one per row on the left. You could then have shortened the "Fn" key and the right shift key and thus made room for a menu key where it is usually found on a keyboard. And it still would have been okay to have a 2nd menu key on the screen bezel.

... And why would we wanted to do that?

And why would layout changes on the keyboard area make it any more okay to add a key to the screen bezel?

sachin007

04-21-2009, 05:19 PM

I think moving the D-pad was a real bad decision. And even worse is the decision to move the menu key inside.

So what viable reason can someone give for sending the menu key inside?

One good use of the d-pad outside was i could skip the tracks in the media player without taking the n800 out of my pocket. Can you do that now?

daperl

04-21-2009, 05:34 PM

... And why would we wanted to do that?

And why would layout changes on the keyboard area make it any more okay to add a key to the screen bezel?

Firstly. Sure, put it back on the screen bezel. And here's another reason why: It's the mistake-buffer between the home key and the escape key. I like to hold down the home key to clear the screen, but it's way too easy on an n810 to close an app by mistake.

Secondly. It was a compromise on my part. You already have 2 enter keys and 2 shift keys. Why stop there? At least my suggestion doesn't cause duplication on the same plane.

attila77

04-21-2009, 05:56 PM

One good use of the d-pad outside was i could skip the tracks in the media player without taking the n800 out of my pocket. Can you do that now?

I use the +/- keys for that, but I guess that depends on the player, too.

attila77

04-21-2009, 05:59 PM

The center button on the d-pad is a duplication of the enter key.

There is some difference. I just found out while playing anagramarama :) You can enter words with d-pad center, but not with enter.

lemmyslender

04-22-2009, 07:55 AM

I sense that the strategy here is to minimize risks to an acceptable level. The more open Nokia is initially with the development of a new tablet, the less risk they can afford to take with the design of the tablet.

One of the ways to reduce the risk is to migrate towards a less innovative and more proven (and perhaps trendy) design concept. Keep this up long enough and we'll end up with yet another iphone clone.

Sure it'll be open source and very likely much better on paper than an iphone, but it probably won't make a dent in iphone sales.

In which case I believe that one of the new models will sport a finger touch only interface (no stylus, no keyboard).

jolouis

04-22-2009, 10:11 AM

Everyone keeps getting really hung up on this whole stylus keyboard thing... so since this is idle speculation, my two cents: The fact that we're all working from is the definite confirmation that there is no longer a style keyboard supported in Maemo 5 natively. Is this the elimination of stylus flat out? Heck no. Is this proof that they're moving away from the use of a stylus? Again, heck no. I use my N800 on a regular basis, and have become quite proficient with the stylus keyboard for typing... but that's really only because the onscreen "finger" keyboard is terrible to use, and there's no physical keyboard unless you get into a USB or BT one. Now, I understand the N810 has a physical keyboard that has some short comings/isn't as great as people would like it to be... but the underlying point here is, the stylus keyboard existed because it was the least of the evils available: sure it took up some screen space, but it was less screen space than the finger keyboard and thus made a lot more sense for "using the device and typing on it"; after all, one of the biggest features of the NITs is multiple things happening at the same time... you can have multiple apps open and switch between them, you can be reading IM's and replying at the same time (contrast this to text messaging), etc. So in my mind the biggest problem with the finger keyboard was that it didn't fit that model... you couldn't use it to type and see what was happening at the same time; and the hardware keyboard on the N810 was the opposite, it gave you the benefits of no screen space lost, but it kind of stunk because it wasn't a great keyboard to use (so I hear). So the point remains... if Maemo 5/RX-51/Whatever SOLVES either one of those problems (or both), then the stylus keyboard is simply no longer necessary. It's a basic usage case, that's all. Not some evil conspiracy to eliminate stylii, just a logical step in making a better user experience. I would put it akin with worrying that because they dropped the Nokia Tablet Video converter thing (whatever the official name was) that means there will no longer be video playback support on the tablets. It was a tool that was implemented to help solve a problem, did a decent job at it, and now has become unnecessary because of better technologies/alternatives.
(and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Nokia buy out that company that was making that tactile feedback touchscreen stuff a little while back... if that's the case and they're implementing a tactile feedback screen with a hardware keyboard option, what's the point in the stylus keyboard where you don't get the benefit of either? Heck, even if they just made the finger keyboard semi transparent or something it'd be pretty darn useable)

daperl

04-22-2009, 12:00 PM

@Jolouis

I own both an n800 and an n810. For some of my use cases I have to work around the short comings of the n810. You're wrong in theory and you're wrong in practice. And Nokia is further wrong in Fremantle and I speculate they'll be further wrong on the first Fremantle device.

One thing you're close to right about is the stylus keyboard is implemented poorly. Maybe in the coming months I'll be able to demonstrate what a better stylus keyboard will be like for some use cases.

lemmyslender

04-22-2009, 12:06 PM

Perhaps they have made some major changes to the hardware keyboard and/or to the terrible finger keyboard. If that is the reasoning for dropping the stylus keyboard, I for one would be thrilled (provided the changes work well in practice).

I fear that the UI has changed to be so finger friendly that it was decided to drop the stylus keyboard lest someone complain that it was not finger friendly and isn't a "good fit" with the UI. If that is the case then perhaps the UI has gone too far into being finger friendly. Perhaps that makes the stylus redundant and unnecessary, hence the concern over whether or not a stylus will be included.

The real issue is whether or not the UI has changed enough to impact how I would use the tablet. From what I have seen (file manager screenshots, new way to close/cancel dialog boxes, removal of the stylus keyboard), I believe it has.

Although there are some indications (some of the Fremantle Stars) that Nokia hasn't dropped the stylus yet, it sure seems like they are progressing in that direction.

For instance, if the core/stock/included apps are all finger friendly, why include a stylus? Why not sell it as an add-on accessory for those people that feel it is required to interact with the third party apps they choose to install?

From what I have seen/heard/read, I am concerned that I will have to wait for a multitude of hacks from the community to achieve the same or better user experience with the new tablet. This of course is one of the strong points of the tablets, that it is even possible. I have seen people buy a Ford car, and replace the motor and drivetrain with Chevy parts. Seems like it would have been easier buy a Chevy and tweak it instead. There appear to be some interesting competitors on the horizon, hopefully Nokia won't loose too many current customers to them.

fpp

04-22-2009, 12:11 PM

[Menu key] Sure, put it back on the screen bezel. And here's another reason why: It's the mistake-buffer between the home key and the escape key. I like to hold down the home key to clear the screen, but it's way too easy on an n810 to close an app by mistake.

Especially as some subgenius decided to swap the home and escape keys between the N800 and N810, which is a real pita when you still use both daily and alternatively.

I demanded that this person be shot a year ago, but have not received confirmation.

ragnar

04-22-2009, 12:37 PM

I have seen people buy a Ford car, and replace the motor and drivetrain with Chevy parts. Seems like it would have been easier buy a Chevy and tweak it instead. There appear to be some interesting competitors on the horizon, hopefully Nokia won't loose too many current customers to them.

Any good stylus UI based competitors that you could mention?

daperl

04-22-2009, 12:41 PM

As GA suggested earlier, I might not know what I'm talking about. So, with what lemmyslender just said and some thoughts I just had, I will make something of a retraction.

Maybe what Nokia said or meant to say was that we currently have 2 on-screen keyboards and we're going to eliminate one while not eliminating any use cases. With the addition of clutter and a compositing window manager, the sky might be the limit. So maybe, just maybe, all of us stylus keyboard people have nothing to fear.

Currently, I'm more interested in application level changes, and that's why I have not paid much attention to Maemo 5 Alpha. If the Beta reveals that the finger keyboard can be manipulated to act and stay like a stylus keyboard, maybe all will be well. Now that would be some positive speculation that I could get behind. But if this is true, then my opinion is Nokia could have been more clear about this. Also if this is true, having a one-liner in a presentation that says "Removal of stylus keyboard" is FUD. If this is false, everything I said previously stands.

GeneralAntilles

04-22-2009, 01:07 PM

If the Beta reveals that the finger keyboard can be manipulated to act and stay like a stylus keyboard, maybe all will be well. Now that would be some positive speculation that I could get behind. But if this is true, then my opinion is Nokia could have been more clear about this. Also if this is true, having a one-liner in a presentation that says "Removal of stylus keyboard" is FUD. If this is false, everything I said previously stands.

Perhaps you should explain what a finger keyboard that can "act and stay like a stylus keyboard" actually means, since the paragraph I'm quoting makes zero sense.

sachin007

04-22-2009, 01:27 PM

A little off topic but i recently used the thumb keyboard on a nokia 5800 phone and was impressed with it. Especially the tactile feedback was very helpful.

But what i dont understand is why to take away something which has already been developed. Especially since the fremantle stars contains some stylus friendly programs i expect that nokia will ship the stylus along with device. If that is the case one can always add one more settings in the keyboard settings menu so that people can choose what they want.

I dont want nokia act like apple and choose for us. I hope they let us choose.

lemmyslender

04-22-2009, 01:34 PM

Perhaps you should explain what a finger keyboard that can "act and stay like a stylus keyboard" actually means, since the paragraph I'm quoting makes zero sense.

I assume the addition of "can be made to" is the key phrase you overlooked.

If the onscreen keyboard can be edited through a config file, one might be able to resize keys, create a different keymap, add/remove keys, etc. Basically customize the keyboard *relatively easily* to suit their personal needs.

There was a least one excellent program for Palm that would let you replace "skin" the default palm keyboard with another one. The included keyboard with easily editable and customizable.

I believe daperl is suggesting something like that.

GeneralAntilles

04-22-2009, 01:45 PM

I assume the addition of "can be made to" is the key phrase you overlooked.

Perhaps daperl is missing some technical details or I'm still not getting it. In your proposal, a working stylus keyboard has nothing at all to do with the finger keyboard.

If the onscreen keyboard can be edited through a config file, one might be able to resize keys, create a different keymap, add/remove keys, etc. Basically customize the keyboard *relatively easily* to suit their personal needs.

I linked to Hildon Input Method the last time this was discussed (we just love to run around in circles around here), perhaps you should read up on it.

glabifrons

04-22-2009, 02:16 PM

Before anyone goes off on "but it's not confirmed", my response is directed to the below quoted comments.

Doesn't anyone think that getting rid of the stylus is a good thing?
Whilst the stylus is essential for the n800/n810 for a lot of web stuff, it's more
annoying having to use it.
Forcing apps to use finger touch makes it less "fiddly"

Was wondering what people actually use the dpad for, browsing etc?
Again I'd be happier if the finger touch improves and no dpad.

Maybe that's just my take on it? or am I missing the dpad/stylus usage?

I am of the exact opposite opinion.
I find using the finger interface imprecise and awkward... I'd much rather use the stylus.

While I don't have sausage-fingers, my fingers are no-where near dainty enough to be able to even unlock the screen on the 1st try (ever). I almost have to use the stylus for that.

Also, my fingers are MUCH bigger than the stylus... I can't imagine playing any games with my finger blocking 10%+ of the screen.
How could you possibly play any tablet-oriented games like breakout or Numpty-Physics with your finger? (even the stylus isn't precise enough sometimes)

And you even mentioned web browsing... perfect example.
THIS SITE's front page is impossible to navigate with fingers even when zoomed! The stylus is barely precise enough to click the posting links from the front page.

Do you seriously use your fingers _only_ on the tablet? (or was this just a troll?)

nilchak

04-22-2009, 02:24 PM

I lost my stylus yesterday, and all I have are my fingers.

So while Diablo indeed cannot be totally operated with fingers only (as the previous poster mentioned), I hope and SPECULATE that the Fremantle version will work flawlessly with fngers only and we can lose the stylus.

In fact the stylus is sooo 1999. Maybe I will take the guitar pecks over that old input device. Lets get imaginative here. And I certainly will take fingers (except the middle one) any day.

lemmyslender

04-22-2009, 02:26 PM

Any good stylus UI based competitors that you could mention?

Not that I recall seeing (other than never having a problem using a Palm TX prior to the N800). I didn't necessarily mean that I am only considering stylus based UI's either.

For instance the Touchbook discussed here: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27245

With the larger screen at the same resolution, using an onscreen keyboard similar to the current stylus keyboard or the matchbox keyboard becomes much more feasible. The keys would be almost twice the size. Thus, much easier to hit accurately. There are obviously some downsides as well. However, based on my needs/wants, price, and availability, it could well be a contender for my money.

I'm not opposed to a finger based UI. For instance I think many of the current crop of touch screen phones benefit from having a finger based UI. It seems that the more complex a task the phone is required to do, the more likely it is to have a stylus to allow for efficient operation, which is different from easy operation.

nilchak

04-22-2009, 02:38 PM

press menu key, navigate through menus with d-pad.
navigate through applications.
it's the most "mobile" means of input the device offers.

But I think "Menus" (small font lists with hidden sub lists iterating till the nth level) are the most un-"mobile" method relevant to the desktop only.

So if on the mobile Fremantle version we can lose the "menus" and make them feel like "easily selectable choices", then we can propably lose the D-Pad too.

But personally I still want a D-pad to be able to scroll across large list of "easily selectable choices" :)

lemmyslender

04-22-2009, 02:45 PM

Perhaps daperl is missing some technical details or I'm still not getting it. In your proposal, a working stylus keyboard has nothing at all to do with the finger keyboard.

I linked to Hildon Input Method the last time this was discussed (we just love to run around in circles around here), perhaps you should read up on it.

Despite being able to find my way to ITT, I am by no means a programer / fluent in programing languages. Nor am I by any means a linux guru.

So judging by your answer, I'm going to assume that it is not possible to do what I was suggesting.

Perhaps daperl meant something else or had different ideas.

Moving on......

GeneralAntilles

04-22-2009, 02:55 PM

So judging by your answer, I'm going to assume that it is not possible to do what I was suggesting.

You seem to have taken the opposite conclusion to what I was trying to say in my post.

Hildon Input Method is open source and has a nice plugin architecture. It would be fairly simple for any interested party to put together their own stylus keyboard (or work from the example keyboard included with it).

lemmyslender

04-22-2009, 03:39 PM

Fair enough, we can add another keyboard. I already understood that, I don't think that's what daperl was asking though. I was thinking more along the lines of editing sytemui.xml to enable the soft power-off option.

daperl

04-22-2009, 04:45 PM

Perhaps you should explain what a finger keyboard that can "act and stay like a stylus keyboard" actually means, since the paragraph I'm quoting makes zero sense.

Yeah, that was confusing. lemmyslender did a good job of explaining what I meant. But if you thought that didn't make sense, it only gets worse if you read further.

By "act and stay" I meant if the finger keyboard is configurable enough, it might be possible to mimic the stylus keyboard.

Sure, I could port the example keyboard. I can do lots of things. Good for me. But that's far from the point. Nokia is making me work harder than I think I should have to. I've been trying to "Nokia Proof" myself for almost a year now, but I'll admit, the "removal of stylus keyboard" was a bigger than normal shock. Ain't no thang; I'll just lower my Nokia bar and move on.

Currently, my Fremantle/RX-51 motivation is low; I have 2 very well-oiled Diablo machines that are kicking a*s, and I make them better every day (thank you Bundyo and jmalonzo). I'm not jonesing for new $500 hardware as much as some others are. And I'm certainly not jonesing for hardware and software that make me do back flips.

We all know talk is cheap, but Nokia has given us plenty of idle time to do nothing but. If I seem impatient or overly frustated, my mistake. I'm not. In general I could care less, but I do enjoy discussing these things. <flamebait>In my opinion, Nokia represents themselves way too defensively on this forum. There's only been one Nokian who was also a properly dissenting community member, and...</flamebait>

Can't wait for the Beta!

TheTree

04-22-2009, 06:25 PM

Before anyone goes off on "but it's not confirmed", my response is directed to the below quoted comments.

I am of the exact opposite opinion.
I find using the finger interface imprecise and awkward... I'd much rather use the stylus.

While I don't have sausage-fingers, my fingers are no-where near dainty enough to be able to even unlock the screen on the 1st try (ever). I almost have to use the stylus for that.

Also, my fingers are MUCH bigger than the stylus... I can't imagine playing any games with my finger blocking 10%+ of the screen.
How could you possibly play any tablet-oriented games like breakout or Numpty-Physics with your finger? (even the stylus isn't precise enough sometimes)

And you even mentioned web browsing... perfect example.
THIS SITE's front page is impossible to navigate with fingers even when zoomed! The stylus is barely precise enough to click the posting links from the front page.

Do you seriously use your fingers _only_ on the tablet? (or was this just a troll?)

One of the biggest reasons why it's so difficult to use your finger to navigate web links is the resistive touch screen. Resistive touch screens are crap when used with a finger. I have both a N810 and an iPod touch and when selecting, for example, "page 5" on a thread on ITT, I can use the capacitive screen on the iPod with a finger about as accurately as the stylus on the N810, without zooming way in on either device.

I will be quite disappointed if Nokia decides to drop the stylus but keep a resistive screen as that would just about kill the usability of the device even with an overhauled UI. They either need to keep the stylus (which, given some of the arguments given, I believe they will), or switch to projection capacitive.

GeneralAntilles

04-22-2009, 06:39 PM

<flamebait>In my opinion, Nokia represents themselves way too defensively on this forum. There's only been one Nokian who was also a properly dissenting community member, and...</flamebait>

I shouldn't respond to flamebait, and there's a lot wrong with this statement that I don't have the energy to address, but I just can't let this one fly totally unanswered, so, I'll propose a situation for you:

If every time you walked through a door, somebody slapped you in the face. You'd start to flinch when you walked through doors, wouldn't you?*

*To clarify, the only people who are to blame for anybody being defensive are the people who always insist on attacking. <rant>Sometimes it amazes me that we have any Nokians here at all considering the amount of bile people like to spew around. To the people who complain (entirely unfoundedly, I might add) about Nokia not being involved enough, stop and think about how long you'd stick around if a half-dozen people jumped down your throat about decisions your employer made every time you stuck your head in the door.</rant>

GeneralAntilles

04-22-2009, 06:44 PM

One of the biggest reasons why it's so difficult to use your finger to navigate web links is the resistive touch screen. Resistive touch screens are crap when used with a finger. I have both a N810 and an iPod touch and when selecting, for example, "page 5" on a thread on ITT, I can use the capacitive screen on the iPod with a finger about as accurately as the stylus on the N810, without zooming way in on either device.

Sorry, no, but it's much more complicated than that. There are two big reasons that have nothing to do with the touchscreen technology used:

First, uses fuzzy click-detection logic. If you don't hit the link perfectly it will guess that the link is what you were shooting for.

Second, the iPod has a lower PPI screen, so links on the iPod are bigger and easier to hit simply because it backs fewer pixels into the same amount of space.

daperl

04-22-2009, 09:09 PM

If every time you walked through a door, somebody slapped you in the face. You'd start to flinch when you walked through doors, wouldn't you?

Your analogy is a little dramatic, even for me. I worked for AOL before, during and after their purchase of Netscape and Time Warner. You think I gave a sh*t about people being critical? But if there was a problem with something I was directly responsible for I was all over it. "My customer is always right." Or did I just make that up? Your life lesson is over.

GeneralAntilles

04-22-2009, 09:20 PM

You think I gave a sh*t about people being critical?

There's a fine line between critical and abusive, and people here cross it far too often.

But if there was a problem with something I was directly responsible for I was all over it. "My customer is always right." Or did I just make that up?

"The customer is always right" doesn't actually mean "the customer is always right". It doesn't mean every idiot with an opinion should be in charge of product design.

Your life lesson is over.

I've done a fair bit of customer service in my short time.

The trolling's gotten old.

daperl

04-23-2009, 12:07 AM

The trolling's gotten old.

Yes, let's move on. This is a more-than-usual waste of our time. Let's get back to important stuff like "Idle Speculation."

ragnar

04-23-2009, 02:16 AM

But if there was a problem with something I was directly responsible for I was all over it. "My customer is always right." Or did I just make that up? Your life lesson is over.

To talk in general terms, there is a not-too-fine difference between "the customers (as a whole) are always right" and "each customer is always right". It's a lot about seeing the bigger picture.

To take a broad analogy (don't take this too seriously), take an imaginary company, and a one that would be making cars, for a specific market. Let's say that the possible customer population in that market would be one million. And we would have this idea of replacing the steering wheel with a joystick. It's more accurate after all, and requires smaller movements. And our cars would sell a hundred copies, while the competition is selling like hotcakes.

Now, we, the car manufacturers, would be wondering what went wrong, and we would do consumer studies and benchmark against the competition. And consumers in all of our studies would say "well your joystick design is interesting, but it ultimately sucks! I want this and that and that in my car, I want a steering wheel, it's a better input mechanism". And all of our car manufacturer competitors would have also realized that.

Now, contrast that to if we would do the same consumer study with only the hundred people that would have bought this joystick car. Would the results be the same? Certainly not. Many of those customers would be furious if we would talk about throwing away our joystick controllers, since many of them are fine with it, some might have even learned the finer points and possible advantages or the joysticks. Or perhaps they would talk about "perhaps you could add the steering wheel to your next car and keep the joystick there at the side - why limit the options?"

--
This - of course - has nothing to do with our current situation right now.

daperl

04-23-2009, 03:40 AM

I think most of us get why Nokia is making the decisions they're making. But why bother with a car analogy? Why not just quote directly from Apple iPhone growth, sales and profit numbers? Treat me like a dumb f*ck all you want, but who do you think you're kidding? Just be honest. It's easy. I'll go first:

I hate the iPhone and I love the n800.

Combine these facts with Nokias lust for Apple-like phone growth and everything is explained.

What don't you think I get about that?

There's no doubt that your Maemo 5 product is going to further make the iPhone look like the toy that it is, but I'm not sure how much good that will do me. I want my joystick back.

flareup

04-23-2009, 04:46 AM

This - of course - has nothing to do with our current situation right now.

haha, love it!

thing is Ragnar, the analogy is backwards - you're already doing the sty- i mean joystick, it's the opposition who made the change to the new fangled hot-caker!

anyway, I detect a little sarcasm with the bit I quoted - hasn't anyone else been following all this? There will be a stylus with the next gen, that's why licqbase is there, numpty etc, it's a no-branier given. The nokians are having a little wind-up and it's working.

we should be getting wound up about the front-face d-pad instead ;)

GeneralAntilles

04-23-2009, 06:20 AM

qgil

04-23-2009, 06:29 AM

But if there was a problem with something I was directly responsible for I was all over it.

And so are we, just like you, when there is a problem (as opposed to idle speculation) that we are directly responsible for (definitely not device product design or business decisions).

As I'm trying to explain in another thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28400), device product design and business management have little to nothing to share with open source practices. If you want to continue this discussion please use that thread instead.

attila77

04-23-2009, 06:35 AM

And consumers in all of our studies would say "well your joystick design is interesting, but it ultimately sucks! I want this and that and that in my car, I want a steering wheel, it's a better input mechanism". And all of our car manufacturer competitors would have also realized that.

Also, there is a good deal of marketing involved. If we're making analogies, consider the CMOS chip thing. A manufacturer makes an outstanding CMOS chip for DSLRs, and uses it as marketing leverage, basically brainwashing users that a CCD chip is inherently worse/inferior to a CMOS one. Then, it doesn't matter anymore if the competition invests in CCD R&D and makes fantastic progress - the market has been already poisoned, users will demand CMOS as 'everyone knows CCD sucks'. So our competition has to go CMOS to sell (and play catch-up with the original CMOS manufacturer), regardless how well their CCD research is progressing.

qgil

04-23-2009, 07:06 AM

Treat me like a dumb f*ck all you want, but who do you think you're kidding? Just be honest. It's easy.

Is this how you engage people into deeper discussions? Is this how you expect more professionals to go and invest more time discussing with you?

ragnar is being honest, and professional. Actually I'm surprised he still has the motivation to post in this thread.

I'm basically done in this thread. You actually want me to work on real stuff instead of discuss in the middle of idle speculation.

mikkov

04-23-2009, 07:45 AM

Rules of idle speculation: if you don't like idle speculation, don't write to thraad called "idle speculation" eh? :)

GeneralAntilles

04-23-2009, 08:01 AM

Rules of idle speculation: if you don't like idle speculation, don't write to thraad called "idle speculation" eh? :)

You and I have different definitions of "idle speculation".

lemmyslender

04-23-2009, 08:59 AM

Being as I started this thread: 69 posts in seven pages (forum default settings). Most of these post probably would have made it into other threads (and been arguably off-topic). I guess this thread is doing what I had hoped it would - relieve some of the off-topic posting in the other threads.

Rant-
I didn't specifically ask anyone to join this thread, so I assume that we are all participating of our own free will.
I believe (if I'm wrong feel free to correct me) that none of the folks from Nokia are in the PR department. I also suspect that none of their job descriptions require them to comment in these forums. Therefore, I *speculate* that they are commenting here of their own free will. I am sure that if they feel any particular thread or the forums in general become too biased against them or Nokia they will quit participating (much to our lose).

I also believe that anyone who owns a current tablet (770, N8x0) is entitled to express any comments (positive or negative) about those devices. I also believe that since they were willing to spend money on a tablet they are entitled to speculate (positive or negative) on the direction (in their opinion) that they see Nokia taking in regards to the tablets. If they purchase a new tablet they are certainly entitled to praise or complain as they see fit. If when the new tablets are available, I choose not to buy one, you won't see me in any threads regarding them, unless my opinion as someone who didn't purchase one is requested.

There is also a certain amount of "unfriendliness"/gruffness/elitism in these forums that in not directed against Nokia. As someone relatively new here, it is a major turn-off, however it is by no means the majority and I tend to shake my head and overlook it.
-end rant

As far as idle speculation goes, as the thread starter, I was trying to be as general as possible. By posting in the fremantle section, my intention was that the speculation would be related to the upcoming devices be it software, hardware, or marketing strategy. If anyone disagrees with this they are free to refrain from participating.

If the powers that be would prefer that this thread end, please close/lock/delete it. I can surely take that hint.

deadmalc

04-23-2009, 09:25 AM

I'm really hoping that the next tablet will allow me to use it like I do a laptop.
We already have the basic apps out there gnumeric/abiword, and being able to connect it to a projector would be unbelievably cool.
Instead of having to lug a laptop around, I can slip my N900? into my pocket and do most things I do with my laptop.

I pretty much have to accept I'm going to be disappointed (a little) with the next tablet, but that isn't Nokia's fault, that's mine for dreaming too much ;-)

But I feel that the increase in speed will allow it to be used a lot more, anyone think of a docking station for it! lol

daperl

04-23-2009, 10:42 AM

Is this how you engage people into deeper discussions? Is this how you expect more professionals to go and invest more time discussing with you?

No, you're right. Again. I'll try to rephrase all my idle speculation in the form of a non-profane car analogy.

ragnar is being honest, and professional. Actually I'm surprised he still has the motivation to post in this thread.

ragnar seems like a really nice person. He should not have to put up with the likes of me.

I'm basically done in this thread. You actually want me to work on real stuff instead of discuss in the middle of idle speculation.

Yes, I want you to go work on real stuff. Here's a list:

d-pad
stylus and stylus holder
stylus keyboard

lemmyslender

04-23-2009, 10:44 AM

Actually, a dock sounds like a great idea. Depending on the usb/charging setup/location, I can envision a "mini" dock/sled with a full size sd card reader in it that wouldn't add much thickness to the device and allow the use of the full size sd cards (that all us N800 owners have lying around).

A little thicker sled/dock could add an extra battery and hub with a couple usb ports on it.

Provided of course a kickstand doesn't get in the way :)

daperl

04-23-2009, 10:45 AM

I'll reference you to the post above about slaps in the face. :rolleyes:

Oh, I see you had more left in the tank. Joy.

Den in USA

04-23-2009, 10:56 AM

timsamoff

04-23-2009, 11:03 AM

I'm still holding out for the single-slot Pop-Tart toaster -- but, if we're talking "docks," we might as well go for the two-slot model.

Tim

fpp

04-23-2009, 11:54 AM

deeteroderdas

04-23-2009, 12:37 PM

What with the ongoing climate change, global warming, melting polar caps and whatnot, I'm surprised no one has thought of the obvious yet : most of all we need a pop-out (like the camera on the N800)... FAN. Especially if the new interface is going to be fingers-only (sweaty hands).

Kudos to myself for bringing this thread back on topic :-)

Or, to save battery, maybe a pop-out chalk bag (for the afore-mentioned sweaty hands).

Edit: Even better! A hardware button which, when pressed, will dispense the chalk powder, pepper-mill style.

qole

04-23-2009, 12:45 PM

TenSpeed

04-23-2009, 12:57 PM

Thinking outside the box a bit...

Given the accelerometers in the next device(s), could the D-pad be replaced with physical gestures (shake the tablet, tilt the tablet - that sort of thing)?

Actually, that's thinking _inside_ the box...

daperl

04-23-2009, 01:17 PM

I use the stylus keyboard heavily, but even with my Nokia-approved stylus, my tablet's screen gets little hazy circles over the stylus keyboard area. When the screen is off, and you tilt the tablet, you can see where all the most-used keys on my keyboard are.

The screen on the n800 and the n810 are night and day. Pun maybe intended. Do you use a screen protector on your n800? A screen protector would be sacrilege on the n810. No hazy circles before, during or after. It is so primo.

So, I agree that the stylus keyboard is suboptimal, even if it is the best thing we've got (on the N800).I think I know what you mean, but could you be more specific? If you mean suboptimal compared to a HIM version of xvkbd I would agree with you. I'm pretty sure by suboptimal you don't mean that using a stylus is suboptimal. Do you? If so, what's your speculation of optimal?

I'm prepared to be blown away by the exciting new solution that Nokia provides us!You're prepared to block oil touch the screen?

qole

04-23-2009, 01:24 PM

lemmyslender

04-23-2009, 01:39 PM

Great, now not only will my friends think I'm geeky, they'll think I have a twitch. Could be problematic drinking after a long session using the tablet though. :)

*man gotta stop working so much in between refreshes*

daperl

04-23-2009, 01:41 PM

And so are we, just like you, when there is a problem (as opposed to idle speculation) that we are directly responsible for

Hey, I think you get my point. Now explain it to GA.

(definitely not device product design or business decisions).

But when you say things like this, it always reminds me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqhB5LegpCk). Go to 2:32.

As I'm trying to explain in another thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28400), device product design and business management have little to nothing to share with open source practices. If you want to continue this discussion please use that thread instead.

And when you say things like this, the best I can do is point you to the thread title. Where did I say anything about open source? I don't want to talk about open source. I want to talk about Nokia hardware and the minimum software needed to support such hardware. Please stop telling me what thread I'm suppose to be in.

daperl

04-23-2009, 01:57 PM

I mean that using a stylus on my touch-screen as a substitute for a keyboard is sub-optimal. It is the best that I've got on the N800 (I used to use a BT keyboard, but it is such a PITA), but I would like Nokia to give me a better option.

How about a tiny pop-out hardware keyboard that is easy and comfortable to use? If you are using the stylus keyboard on the N810, that means the hardware keyboard is a fail for you. What if Nokia made the hardware keyboard a win, instead of a fail? And what if they made the finger keyboard a win, too? Wouldn't that be the best solution?

Then people who like to keep their fingers off of their screens could use the HWKB, and the fearless finger screen-greasers could use the OSKB.

Okay, try to keep your thoughts pure.

No. No. No. No. I've been holding a pencil for over 40 years. I don't need more input device hardware. I type at a keyboard; I tap everywhere else.

The n810 is not a failure for me. I knew exactly what I was getting in to. All the surprises were happy surprises:

screen quality (display, ruggedness, touch sensitivity)
wifi robustness
stylus and stylus holder design
stereo sound imaging

I can ignore a useless piece of hardware addition like a slide-out keyboard. Just like others should be able to ignore a useless screen-bezel d-pad, a useless stylus and stylus holder, and a useless stylus keyboard.

daperl

04-23-2009, 02:35 PM

How about a tiny pop-out hardware keyboard that is easy and comfortable to use?

I want to address this more specifically. When I'm holding a stylus with my thumb, index and middle finger, my tapping movements are nicely distributed from my elbow to the tips of those fingers. But when I'm using my thumb to tap different areas, too much movement is concentrated around the joint that connects my thumb to my hand. This is sub-optimal for me. When I'm using the stylus, my fingers are just creating some tension; their movement is minimal if any. And this has nothing to do with arthritis; I'm fat, dumb and happy typing away at a desktop keyboard.

Did that make sense to you?

jolouis

04-23-2009, 02:56 PM

First off, wow this thread has a lot less to do with actual speculation and discussion than it does more with general "I miss my stylus keyboard, but it's okay, but I'm still not happy, but maybe". No offense intended to anyone, but let's get back to the good ol' speculation, or go off and start a new thread under the off topic section...
Personally I'd like to see some underlying hooks for some type of mouse or off device input support. Too much talk about text input... what about other kinds of cool possibilities? The accelerometer was brought up, that's pretty snazzy, but I mean since we're talking about Maemo 5 rather than a specific device (we did start off with Maemo 5 didn't we? I could be wrong...), even just an easy way to make some kind of cursor or pointer visible would neat; sure you're not going to use it everyday with the uber finger UI... but when you're using ported applications or sitting down to your "dock" setup, a mouse can be ridiculously helpful.

sjgadsby

04-23-2009, 03:13 PM

Personally I'd like to see some underlying hooks for some type of mouse or off device input support.

Fremantle uses Xorg rather than KDrive, so Bluetooth and USB mice should both "just work" (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1897#c14). Adding other input devices should be considerably easier also.

lemmyslender

04-23-2009, 03:14 PM

Let me give it a try....

My current phone is a LG EnV (verizon). It's about 1/2 - 3/4" shorter than my N800. Flip it open and it has a nice 4 row keyboard (numbers at the top) 4 function buttons down the left, 4 keys +5 way dpad on the left (2 keys above/below dpad). I quite like it. Makes it nice to type texts / move through menus, browse the web (not that I text or browse much). Size/function wise I thought it would be a great fit on a tablet. I always wish I could use it via bluetooth on the N800.

However, I am much slower typing on it than I am typing using the stylus keyboard. I find it too cramped and make too many mistakes to use for very long. I can type just fine on a normal keyboard and most notebook keyboards. My daughters Acer Aspire One (netbook) is a bit to small and cramped to use normally.

I would love to have a HWKB on my tablet, but even if it was exceptional, it probably still wouldn't be my primary input, perhaps close @ 40/60. This of course provided a decent stylus keyboard was available.

In my estimation, the finger keyboard is the worst of the three options. So unless there have been some significant changes (and I hope to be pleasantly surprised) my potential user experience has been degraded.

lemmyslender

04-23-2009, 03:17 PM

Now a usable mouse pointer, that would be interesting. I'd love to see that feature added. I have a couple portable mice that would fit that bill nicely. Although a bluetooth mouse would work best, no dongles or cords to loose or get in the way.

lemmyslender

04-23-2009, 03:29 PM

Back to more speculation-

Is there any indication as to whether one or both models will sport "always on" connectivity (cellular data)?

qole

04-23-2009, 03:30 PM

...The accelerometer was brought up, that's pretty snazzy, but I mean since we're talking about Maemo 5 rather than a specific device (we did start off with Maemo 5 didn't we? I could be wrong...)

Did the alpha SDK expose an API for an accelerometer? What about the new HD camera? I know people found the drivers in the kernel, but has there been any way for developers in high-level languages like Python to use these devices? Can I use a GStreamer pipeline to take video with the new HQ camera, just like I did with the old webcam? Is it V4L2 compliant?

I can think of so many cool ideas for an accelerometer, especially coupled with a camera and a GPS. You will know where you are, how fast you are going, what kind of G-forces you are experiencing... Very nice.

Or even better, you can use your device as the ultimate construction tool! Quickly map out property lines with the GPS, use the camera, GPS, and accelerometer (bubble level) as a fantastic survey tool (laser level anyone?)...

I can just see it. You hold up your device, the camera shows you a live feed of the landscape in front of you, and the device uses the accelerometer to overlay an artificial horizon and vertical. Then your co-worker adjusts the fence post until it is aligned with the vertical on your screen, and you shout, "That's it! Hold it there!"

You can probably also use the camera, accelerometer and GPS to get fairly accurate distance measurements to any object you can see. You point the camera at an object, get the device level using the accelerometer, select the object on your touch screen, then walk a few paces and repeat the process. The device can then triangulate the object's location and give you an accurate distance.

I bet you could even overlay text on the camera's feed from Google maps, Wikipedia, etc, like some kind of Borg heads-up display... Point the device at an old building in an unfamiliar town, and the device will tell you all about it.

If, say, you wanted to go to a museum in Berlin, instead of (hypothetically) wandering around the museum district for hours, you could have the device guide you directly there by actually overlaying your route on the video feed from the camera. A big line would go right down the street in front of you, just like on Google Street View.

But I would like the simple things too, like a little game where you have to roll a ball around a maze by tilting your device.

GeneralAntilles

04-23-2009, 03:36 PM

Is there any indication as to whether one or both models will sport "always on" connectivity (cellular data)?

If you're going to speculate, you should at least be familiar (http://maemo.org/community/council/community_highlights_for_december_2008-part_i-january_2009-part_ii/) with what we know (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9093153240.html).

GeneralAntilles

04-23-2009, 03:38 PM

Or even better, you can use your device as the ultimate construction tool! Quickly map out property lines with the GPS, use the camera, GPS, and accelerometer (bubble level) as a fantastic survey tool (laser level anyone?)...

You can probably also use the camera, accelerometer and GPS to get fairly accurate distance measurements to any object you can see. You point the camera at an object, get the device level using the accelerometer, select the object on your touch screen, then walk a few paces and repeat the process. The device can then triangulate the object's location and give you an accurate distance.

Ha! With >50 meters accuracy? Fat chance.

mikkov

04-23-2009, 03:50 PM

But I would like the simple things too, like a little game where you have to roll a ball around a maze by tilting your device.

Neverball (http://neverball.org/screenshots.php) may not be as little as you were thinking, but anyway this is one of the games I hope to see in maemo device. (Opengl vs Opengl ES could be an obstacle here)

qole

04-23-2009, 03:59 PM

mikkov: I think you've found a way to make yourself a Maemo 5 Hero :D

nilchak

04-23-2009, 04:35 PM

I don't know about all those N800 users wanting to have their stylus keyboard and finger it too ... (cheesy line there :-) but as a N810 user, if there is a HWKB then I wonder if you will want to use the stylus keyboard at all ?

I mean why bother taking out a stylus and tapping (pecking) away at small keys on the screen without any feedback (ok, maybe there will be haptic feedback) when you might as well slide out the HWKB and type away happily.

On my N810 - I have never (NEVER) started the stylus keyboard - maybe sometimes the finger keyboard, but am generally faster on the HWKb than anything else.

If you didn't want to bring out an additional input device (stylus or HWKB), then simple use your fingers.

So with the new Nokia tablet - if the HWKB is built in would you still want a onscreen stylus keyboard ? It isnt THAT much necessary - except to die-hard stylus fans.
And mind you, this is not a debate between having a stylus or not - but between having a HWKB and an OSSKB (on screen stylus keyboard).

In between these 2 choices the finger keyboard seems to fit in fine without that conflict - since that is only for situations when you don't want to slide out anything at all and quickly type something.

Well as a speclation - how about a super sexy HWKB like that speculated keyboard where a thin panel slides out and the keys raise out of the flat surface to allow typing and then retract again after use ? I think that was mentioned in some article about Nokia's future products or something.

daperl

04-23-2009, 05:07 PM

@Nokia

nilchak and I have decided that there needs to be 2 different OMAP3 devices. One for me and one for him. We can talk about the OS later, but we both want to make sure that you get the hardware right first. Please let us know the deadline for our design documents. Thanks in advance.

qole

04-23-2009, 05:22 PM

I want nilchak's device. That daperl guy? The one driving the joystick car? He wants his own special design. ;)

daperl

04-23-2009, 05:37 PM

I want nilchak's device. That daperl guy? The one driving the joystick car? He wants his own special design. ;)

Well, I can always add a BT steering wheel later. And since my device would have less on it, I think I should pay less.

qole

04-23-2009, 06:16 PM

Well, I can always add a BT steering wheel later.

Watch out! Here comes daperl now, with his BT steering wheel!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3122/2613580563_4cf7f8de33.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/worldofoddy/2613580563/)
CC licensed photo by Alison Oddy

mullf

04-23-2009, 08:04 PM

What with the ongoing climate change, global warming, melting polar caps and whatnot, I'm surprised no one has thought of the obvious yet : most of all we need a pop-out (like the camera on the N800)... FAN. Especially if the new interface is going to be fingers-only (sweaty hands).

Kudos to myself for bringing this thread back on topic :-)

When I started reading this post, I thought you were going to go in a different direction. Like power the device with body heat from the user's hands and from the environment.

mullf

04-23-2009, 08:39 PM

Ha! With >50 meters accuracy? Fat chance.

How cheap of a GPS chip are they going to use? You should be able to get a better fix than that with modern GPS receivers.

GeneralAntilles

04-23-2009, 08:42 PM

How cheap of a GPS chip are they going to use? You should be able to get a better fix than that with modern GPS receivers.

Well, it aint gonna be MTK. ;)

lemmyslender

04-23-2009, 09:31 PM

If you're going to speculate, you should at least be familiar (http://maemo.org/community/council/community_highlights_for_december_2008-part_i-january_2009-part_ii/) with what we know (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9093153240.html).

Well, golly gee I see both those links suggest the next tablet(s) will have cellular data connectivity. Gosh, I think I remember reading that in multiple other places as well, including here at ITT.

Very specifically, there are at least two potential upcoming models, RX-51 and RX-71 correct? Are we then 100% certian, perhaps a Nokia blog or press release that indicates "both" or "all" future tablets will have the apropriate hardware? Perhaps we have information on the chip that will be used?

Your first link (your own article, no less) merely states that the code was included in the alpha sdk, and mentions the RX-51. The second link mentions that Maemo 5 (again software) will include data connectivity. If I'm wrong, please point out where.

I sincerely hope that from a cost standpoint one of the two potential models will be lacking the hardware necessary. This would allow those of us that have no need to spend another $30-$60 dollars per month a cheaper alternative. If in fact I'll have to pay for hardware I have no use for, that is a major strike in my book.

GeneralAntilles

04-23-2009, 09:40 PM

Very specifically, there are at least two potential upcoming models, RX-51 and RX-71 correct? Are we then 100% certian, perhaps a Nokia blog or press release that indicates "both" or "all" future tablets will have the apropriate hardware? Perhaps we have information on the chip that will be used?

What we know is that Maemo 5 supports data connectivity, and applications are being designed to generally assume the availability of said connectivity.

I think it's fairly safe to say that we wont see a non-data tablet.

lma

04-24-2009, 06:16 AM

as a N810 user, if there is a HWKB then I wonder if you will want to use the stylus keyboard at all ?

The N810 HW keyboard is quite sub-optimal, so to speak, for command line use, writing code or even just numeric input.

So with the new Nokia tablet - if the HWKB is built in would you still want a onscreen stylus keyboard ?

It really depends on the quality / layout of the new HWKB. With something like this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/2005-04-16_Psion_Serie_5mx_PRO_24MB_beschn_unscharf_scharf .JPG) or even this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Nokia-e90.png) I would never bother using any touchscreen input method.

fpp

04-24-2009, 06:40 AM

Aaah, the good old Psion Series5, 12 years old and still unbested... :-)

fpp

04-24-2009, 06:42 AM

When I started reading this post, I thought you were going to go in a different direction. Like power the device with body heat from the user's hands and from the environment.

Like the old mechanical watches powered by movement of the arm ?

Or maybe after all they are removing the stylus just to make space on the side for an (optional ?) crank handle... :-)

lemmyslender

04-24-2009, 08:40 AM

What we know is that Maemo 5 supports data connectivity, and applications are being designed to generally assume the availability of said connectivity.

I think it's fairly safe to say that we wont see a non-data tablet.

I respectfully disagree for the following reasons:

1) I think it fairly safe to say that the next tablets will be data only, no voice (except perhaps voip) unless something is hacked. This means for voice communications, I will still need to carry a phone. Since I already have a phone, I may find it cheaper to tether than buy a data plan alone.

2) It seems that adding in cellular connectivity drives the price up substantially. This creates the risk of pricing the tablet higher than the major portion of the target market is likely to accept. In these challenging economic times, a cheaper model with a lower cost of ownership may sell substantially better.

3) There are potentially 2 models in the works. I haven't seen much significant difference between the two except for an as yet undecipherable keyboard layout. (I could be wrong on this, as I haven't paid read much of those threads lately). Wouldn't connectivity be a great way to differentiate those models?

4) A certain company has already shown there is a market for a tablet like phone and a tablet like device without cellular. Last I read, sales of both devices were doing well (and similar numbers). Big companies like to mitigate risks, and if a particular strategy has been proven to work, why not employ it?

5) As a business owner, I like the strategy of minimally increasing development costs (simplistically we're talking about adding some intelligence to the software and leaving a chip or two off). The reward being the ability to easily adjust production to match the market response.

Therefore I speculate that one model may not have the option for cellular connectivity. If not, Nokia may be missing the boat on reaching a significant market group.

GeneralAntilles

04-24-2009, 08:57 AM

I respectfully disagree for the following reasons:

Which is great and all, but applications are being designed to assume a data connection. This assumption was one of the reasons that a backport was deemed less than feasible.

Mara

04-24-2009, 09:38 AM

What we know is that Maemo 5 supports data connectivity, and applications are being designed to generally assume the availability of said connectivity.

I think it's fairly safe to say that we wont see a non-data tablet.

Just want to follow up (speculate):

I do not think it makes sense to make multiple tablet versions with and without the cellular radio. While I agree that the tablet without it should be cheaper, but the difference may not be as much as many believe. By adding more models you add other costs (inventories, new part numbers, certification costs, maintenance/documentation costs,... etc.). Only if you expect both models to sell in "millions" then it start to make sense. Until the tablet success is known (by actually selling the product for some time...) I do not think Nokia want's to produce many "almost identical" products.

For the data connectivity: If you do not want cellular data then just do not put in the SIM card. You can still use WiFi and I believe also can tether (Bluetooth) the tablet to your cell phone to get data connection on the go. Even if you do not have data, the tablet should work but some (software) functionality would be limited. As was mentioned most applications "expect" to have all time data connection. (But you can always write an app that does not need that... For example MaemoMapper can be used both with and without data... if you have data you have more functionality.)

Disclaimer: This is just "speculation". I do not have the "insider information" of the above subject.

eiffel

04-24-2009, 09:41 AM

... applications are being designed to assume a data connection. This assumption was one of the reasons that a backport was deemed less than feasible.
I don't follow that line of reasoning. Any application running on the RX-51 must be able to fail gracefully in the absence of a data connection. The device could go offline for any number of reasons, including being beyond a cellular coverage area, or if the user's data plan has run out of credit, or if data has been switched off to avoid overseas roaming charges.

Therefore, the assumption of a data connection on the RX-51 doesn't impact the back-porting of its applications to Diablo.

Regards,
Roger

lemmyslender

04-24-2009, 09:51 AM

Are we assuming a data connection or a *cellular* data connection?

If we are assuming a *cellular* data connection, what happens when no cellular connection is available? Does it fall back to checking for a wifi data connection or just choke? If it's going to choke, why include wifi at all?

If it's not going to choke and fall back to a wifi connection (which I assume is the case), why not check for a wifi connection first?

Most cell providers offer a pay per plan, a limited plan, and an unlimited plan. Wouldn't it make more sense to check for an available preferred wifi connection to save on cell data charges? Then if no wifi is available, use the data connection?

If I do a lot of browsing, watch youtube, listen to internet radio, I can chew through quite a few MB's or even GB's in a month. I'd much rather do this using my available home internet via wifi and save money on a cheaper data plan. Are you suggesting I won't have this option, or that I will have to manually tell the tablet I'd prefer to use a wifi connection each time?

I'd think the most sensible plan would be for the tablet to:
1) Check for preferred wifi
2) Check for cellular (onboard)
3) Check for cellular (tethered)

That being the case, and given my previous arguments, would it make some sense to offer a non-cellular option?

If it won't be working that way and a cell data plan is absolutely required, what happens to folks who don't have the option of regular cell coverage (fringe areas, non-metro areas, etc)? Would they loose the major benefits of having a tablet (internet). Is Nokia willing to throw away a whole market segment over a connectivity issue? Or, will a wifi only connection work almost as well? And hence the potential for a wifi only tablet?

*Edit - I see there were some responses in the mean time, sorry for any redundancy*

lemmyslender

04-24-2009, 09:57 AM

Heck, you could even make the cellular portion a "pop-in" daughter board, give the owners of a non-cellular tablet a cheaper upgrade path. That would fix inventory issues, simply order some more cell boards, pop em into a RX-51, presto a brand new RX-71 in inventory.

Really part numbers and inventory management would/should be a very small challenge to overcome.

daperl

04-24-2009, 09:57 AM

Which is great and all, but applications are being designed to assume a data connection. This assumption was one of the reasons that a backport was deemed less than feasible.

What would this have to do with new devices on a new OS? Or are you saying these new assuming apps will fail ungracefully in airplane mode?

But I think that lemmyslender has the best speculation to date: If Nokia wants some of the Apple pie, of course they will have a non-cellular product. The iPod Touch sales figures (and I) demand it.

GeneralAntilles

04-24-2009, 10:07 AM

Are we assuming a data connection or a *cellular* data connection?

They're the same thing. :)

GeneralAntilles

04-24-2009, 10:08 AM

You can still use WiFi and I believe also can tether (Bluetooth) the tablet to your cell phone to get data connection on the go.

The better part (for me) is the reverse, being able to tether other things to the tablet for data. I'm betting setting it up as a 3G WiFi hotspot shouldn't be too hard, either.

GeneralAntilles

04-24-2009, 10:11 AM

Heck, you could even make the cellular portion a "pop-in" daughter board, give the owners of a non-cellular tablet a cheaper upgrade path.

People talk a lot about modularity in mobile devices, but modularity doesn't really apply to devices this small. There's a reason why you can't upgrade the graphics card in your laptop.

sjgadsby

04-24-2009, 10:12 AM

Heck, you could even make the cellular portion a "pop-in" daughter board, give the owners of a non-cellular tablet a cheaper upgrade path.

It's likely the certification costs would be the same, so no cost savings would be introduced there. The design costs for such a "pop-in" scheme would almost certainly be higher, and it would add bulk to the tablet. The retail costs for the two separate parts of a "pop-in" tablet would add up to more than the cost of the device as planned now. And finally, a SIM slot and devices sold outside contracts will effectively accomplish the same goal.

lemmyslender

04-24-2009, 12:27 PM

Sure a pop-in card isn't the best solution and probably very unlikely. They do make laptops with replaceable graphics cards, and I have had laptops that could be upgraded by adding in a wifi card as a pop-in type solution (not a pc card). I wouldn't expect Nokia to go that route, I was just throwing it out there.

I think it would be very foolish of Nokia to not include cellular data on at least one model. There is certainly a large market for that. Plus it opens up several possibilities, such as a wifi hotspot as GeneralAntilles believes will be possible.

I receive large amounts of data over wifi connections every day. Thus, I would consider that to fall under the generic "data connection", and have tried in my posts to differentiate between that and a cellular connection :) Henceforth I will strive to add "wifi" where appropriate so as not to confuse anyone.

I would expect that in areas where I have wifi coverage, I would be able to use all programs without a loss of functionality. I also consider the inability to check email etc, during my 15 minute drive from home to work, fairly minor.

In fact I'd much rather see an extra sd/micro sd card slot in place of a sim card slot, but I gather from what I've read this isn't very likely.

So, to all those that don't think one model will be wifi data only, what do you think the differences between the two models are likely to be?

GeneralAntilles

04-24-2009, 12:40 PM

So, to all those that don't think one model will be wifi data only, what do you think the differences between the two models are likely to be?

Just call it "WiFi only". When you talk about data it sounds like cellular data.

Formfactor seems likely to me, but there's not telling until we get an announcement.

TheTree

04-24-2009, 05:38 PM

Sorry, no, but it's much more complicated than that. There are two big reasons that have nothing to do with the touchscreen technology used:

First, uses fuzzy click-detection logic. If you don't hit the link perfectly it will guess that the link is what you were shooting for.

Second, the iPod has a lower PPI screen, so links on the iPod are bigger and easier to hit simply because it backs fewer pixels into the same amount of space.

Your first point here is valid. The fuzzy click detection logic would be nice to see on the ITs, if possible.

The second point, however, is wrong. I mentioned this:

...I can use the capacitive screen on the iPod with a finger about as accurately as the stylus on the N810, without zooming way in on either device.

The screen on the iPod Touch is physically smaller than the n810's (3.5" vs 4.1"). Therefore, when both are zoomed out all the way, the iPod Touch would actually display physically smaller links. What you said would only be valid if I was zoomed to a 1 to 1 pixel ratio on both devices, which I wasn't.

mullf

04-24-2009, 07:30 PM

Which is great and all, but applications are being designed to assume a data connection. This assumption was one of the reasons that a backport was deemed less than feasible.

Suppose a user does not order a cellular data plan, but just uses the tablet using wi-fi when they want connectivity, and also uses it for music, other things with no connectivity otherwise. What are the ramifications for this type of user? Are they negative? If not, what does it matter whether it assumes a data connection or not? (Or maybe I am misunderstanding the question.)

GeneralAntilles

04-24-2009, 07:47 PM

Suppose a user does not order a cellular data plan, but just uses the tablet using wi-fi when they want connectivity, and also uses it for music, other things with no connectivity otherwise. What are the ramifications for this type of user? Are they negative? If not, what does it matter whether it assumes a data connection or not? (Or maybe I am misunderstanding the question.)

I don't know. I'm only restating what I've heard from a Nokia employee (ragnar, I think, actually).

Texrat

04-24-2009, 09:32 PM

A title like "idle speculation" implies that there is nothing productive going on.

I see valid potential in most of the posts here, "idle" or otherwise.

EDIT: but since we're "idly speculating"...

It saddens me that Nokia *seems* to be moving away from elements that made the tablets distinct and toward homogenization that would make them more or less like anyone else's offerings.

Nokia had a chance to create and seize a new market, and fumbled the ball... despite the evangelism of many inside the company in favor of pushing the tablets hard.

It later became extremely frustrating for me due to a singular event: when one of my fellow QA engineers approached me with what he swore was going to be one of the coolest devices, a Nokia 770. When he saw my excitement he got me a prototype model with a cracked case and no battery cover. I didn't care. I duct-taped the battery in and went to town.

In no time I was developing a web-based mobile auditing app with the tablets in mind. Unfortunately, VPN was not officially supported. A colleague in Finland cobbled up a rough gui vpn tool for internal use only and before long I had a working alpha of my vision: a means of freeing our product and delivery auditors to enter defects as they found them instead of trotting back to a desktop PC. My manager was ecstatic. This was working smart!

I blogged (internally) and emailed about the experience and pushed for an enterprise project to incorporate the 770 into our operations. There seemed to be little corporate interest at that time (there was later).

Then the N800 was placed into my hands, and I had hopes that all that was changing.

Shepherding the N800 through production was one of the most exciting times in my career. I worked extra hours without caring or complaining. I wrote specs, trained people relentlessly, hosted traveling engineers from Oulu and evangelicized every chance I got. I saw the N800 as the hope for our factory, the hope for Nokia, and I was going to do my damndest to make it succeed. I took that role to HEART, baby.

When product defects threatened the CES launch at the last minute, I worked around the clock to make sure they got the required number of perfect devices: 200 for the show, 5500 for retail launch immediately afterward. That was rough. People in the company didn't understand the product and I had to babysit them to ensure they Got It. It took a 17 page test procedure and days of repetitive instruction.

I loved every minute of it.

So I have a personal interest here. A foolish one I admit. Our factory closed, I was moved to different things, and eventually Nokia lost sight of my value and cut me loose. I am still looking, frustratingly, for work. Nokia execs could not care less.

I'm biased toward the promise the N800 held and I won't apologize for it. I do like the N810, but for different reasons. Like an idiot I assumed we were platforming, and something like the N800 would continue in some similar form or fashion. Stupid me.

People can speculate all they like. And when fundamentals change, drastically, I think those with a vested interest in the product line have a right to feel let down, annoyed, misled, etc. The burden of explanation for severe changes lies with the changers. Sorry, I agree with daperl: very little substantive rationale in what I've seen so far to favor a continued move away from the basic goodness of the N800. And sorry, 770 lovers-- I still think it looks like a Radio Shack product.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. I've held that in for 2 years.

lemmyslender

04-24-2009, 10:08 PM

I agree, most of the posts here are valuable. At the very least they have provided food for thought for us and perhaps even Nokia, if not foor this series of tablets then perhaps the next.

I meant idle not in terms of content, but in terms of lack of new information from Nokia. We are currently idling along in between tidbits released from Nokia. I'm sure we are all looking forward to the beta sdk release, which should answer some of this speculation, and I'm sure create more speculation in turn.

In the meantime, here we are having lively discussions based on tiny factoids (probably taken out of context).

Texrat

04-24-2009, 10:12 PM

If only Nokia listened more attentively, and with less arrogance. And yes, I'm anthropomorphizing. :D

electrolind

04-24-2009, 10:55 PM

I feel the pain and consider myself lucky with so many people getting cut from jobs/companies they love. As a Manufacturing Technician, I have built a lot of the chips that are in these devices. At least I used to. I was fortunate to not have a lot of time unemployed. It's not just Nokia, but all the suppliers too.

I would love it if Nokia could just find something they could make ENOUGH money with and stick with it. I use my N800 enough so I go through one every 14 months (plus or minus 4 weeks).(Screen develops lines and starts going wavy)

Stay frosty

attila77

04-25-2009, 06:07 AM

What would this have to do with new devices on a new OS? Or are you saying these new assuming apps will fail ungracefully in airplane mode?

A lot of present day applications (some of which ship with the NIT) already fail in various connectivity scenarios. For example, the IM can't keep it's status between connection changes even if it's life depended on it. Canola also has this nasty habit of disrespecting flight mode. Yes, I know, the canonical answer is that I should have filed a bug report - except I think if more app devs get it wrong than right, IMO it's not an application bug.

mullf

04-25-2009, 09:16 AM

And sorry, 770 lovers-- I still think it looks like a Radio Shack product.

You rat b*stard!

Otherwise, an excellent post.

luca

04-25-2009, 09:58 AM

I use my N800 enough so I go through one every 14 months (plus or minus 4 weeks).(Screen develops lines and starts going wavy)

Ah! So my theory that the screen is defective (or at least there's a defective batch) and breaks after around a year is right.

GeneralAntilles

04-25-2009, 11:50 AM

GeraldKo

04-25-2009, 12:00 PM

I use my N800 enough so I go through one every 14 months (plus or minus 4 weeks).(Screen develops lines and starts going wavy)

Do you use a screen protector? If so, a good one? (I'm at 16 months of heavy daily usage, all with a stylus, and the screen seems like-new.)

daperl

04-25-2009, 12:46 PM

I use my N800 enough so I go through one every 14 months (plus or minus 4 weeks).(Screen develops lines and starts going wavy)

If you don't care about the d-pad location, SD slots, FM radio, USB jack or the camera, and you do care about beautiful,durable,sensitive screens and robust WiFi connectivity, you should not get another n800. The n810 should be your next replacement.

This statement comes from a satisfied owner of both.

GeraldKo

04-25-2009, 04:02 PM

Well, golly gee I see both those links suggest the next tablet(s) will have cellular data connectivity. Gosh, I think I remember reading that in multiple other places as well, including here at ITT.

Very specifically, there are at least two potential upcoming models, RX-51 and RX-71 correct? Are we then 100% certian, perhaps a Nokia blog or press release that indicates "both" or "all" future tablets will have the apropriate hardware? Perhaps we have information on the chip that will be used?

Your first link (your own article, no less) merely states that the code was included in the alpha sdk, and mentions the RX-51. The second link mentions that Maemo 5 (again software) will include data connectivity. If I'm wrong, please point out where.

I sincerely hope that from a cost standpoint one of the two potential models will be lacking the hardware necessary. This would allow those of us that have no need to spend another $30-$60 dollars per month a cheaper alternative. If in fact I'll have to pay for hardware I have no use for, that is a major strike in my book.

At least for the United States, you have to figure that Nokia is working hand-in-hand with a carrier (or carriers) to compete with Apple/AT&T. More than we wish, the carriers have a say in what gets built. My guess is that one of the Tablets is a phone, to compete with the iPhone, and that the other is not a phone.

I don't plan on spending big bucks like you have to for iPhone connectivity. If Nokia is coming out with two models, and both enable a cellular data connection, my hope is that Nokia has cut a deal to allow it to be used with a cheap, prepaid data solution, analogous to T-Mobile's prepaid phone card, for those of us who are generally happy to rely on WiFi.

If I had my druthers, Nokia would also come out with a non-celldata-capable, no-hardware-keyboard model -- that is, an N800 that was faster and smaller than the original (while keeping the same screen size and resolution), and cheap. It would be the iTouch-competitor for people who are willing to sacrifice a little (though not as much as currently required) on bulk in order to gain a bigger, and 800x480, screen.

And, yeah, as far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer a stylus, too. But even if Nokia dumps the stylus, if they can make an interface with the sensitivity to make a finger as precise as a stylus, I'd still like this new Son-of-N800.

Jaffa

04-25-2009, 05:35 PM

At least for the United States, you have to figure that Nokia is working hand-in-hand with a carrier (or carriers) to compete with Apple/AT&T. More than we wish, the carriers have a say in what gets built.

Perhaps not. Lots of other non-phone devices have SIM card slots: UMPCs, MIDs, netbooks and laptops. Do the carriers get a say in how they are built? Do the carriers there control what Microsoft can do when running on them?

My guess is that one of the Tablets is a phone, to compete with the iPhone, and that the other is not a phone.

Perhaps. There are, I think a number of possibilities:

One is pretty much the high-end tablet replacement, with HSPA. Voice capability may be included, but primarily intended for use via Bluetooth.
One is a smaller, phone-sized device. This directly competes with the Symbian phone range.
One is a larger, netbook-screen sized device for use on the road in larger bags, or around the home. (A bit like the Touchbook)
They are both very similar, only slightly differing in size and feature set (e.g. cut out HSPA, FM RX/TX, perhaps no card slot, perhaps 640x384 screen). But aimed at different markets.

my hope is that Nokia has cut a deal to allow it to be used with a cheap, prepaid data solution, analogous to T-Mobile's prepaid phone card, for those of us who are generally happy to rely on WiFi.

Earlier comments by Nokia, shortly after the Maemo 5 announcements, were along the lines that adding the cellular hardware didn't add much to the end price, and that you wouldn't have to use it.

Any form of mobile carrier contract is likely to add up to more than the bog-standard retail. But I wouldn't be expecting the primary sales route for the Maemo 5 devices to be through mobile phone retailers and carrier contracts.

I think they'll be sold as high-end, unlocked, unsubsidised devices primarily.

daperl

04-25-2009, 06:39 PM

The thought of hardwired HSPA gives me the kreeps. Some of you scoff at those of us who talk about modular cellular capabilities. But aren't we starting to see small netbooks with internal usb 2.0 ports? Someone as large as Nokia, who doesn't want to have another n810 WiMAX fiasco, needs to put their foot down. Close-source binary blob me all you want, just allow me to remove it without causing me any buggy hardware issues. The timing for this is perfect for technical and non-technical reasons.

GeneralAntilles

04-25-2009, 06:52 PM

But aren't we starting to see small netbooks with internal usb 2.0 ports?

You're kidding, right? You want to hook up the internal 3G modem to a USB port in a device this size? :rolleyes: Assuming you could actually fit all that **** in there, say hello to 3-hour battery life.

Close-source binary blob me all you want, just allow me to remove it without causing me any buggy hardware issues.

It's hooked up to a serial connection (SPI, I think) they released the kernel drivers around September last year.

electrolind

04-25-2009, 07:08 PM

Yes, I use several screen protectors per screen. I suspect there's something in the environment as a friend in the next town over has the same problem, but another ten miles south does not.

I have tried the N810 and I just don't like it. Just doesn't feel right.

I've been thinking about 4G networks.

Stay frosty

daperl

04-25-2009, 07:43 PM

You're kidding, right? You want to hook up the internal 3G modem to a USB port in a device this size? :rolleyes: Assuming you could actually fit all that **** in there, say hello to 3-hour battery life.

No, I wasn't kidding. But I was expecting you to to take the directly proportional speculating leap that:

USB 2.0 HSPA dongle IS TO netbook

WHAT

<power-conscience, small-device form factor> HSPA dongle IS TO tablet

Both my phone and my n8x0's have internal removable batteries and internal removable SD cards. Are you telling me one more small replaceable piece of internal hardware would be a big deal? You'd be kidding, right?

It's hooked up to a serial connection (SPI, I think) they released the kernel drivers around September last year.Thanks for the info. Even better. But let me recap some of what I was trying to say:

hard-wired HSPA device: not modular, kreepy
closed-source binary blob: modular, maybe less kreepy

GeneralAntilles

04-25-2009, 08:11 PM

USB 2.0 HSPA dongle IS TO netbook

Both my phone and my n8x0's have internal removable batteries and internal removable SD cards. Are you telling me one more small replaceable piece of internal hardware would be a big deal? You'd be kidding, right?

Neither your battery nor your SD cards are hooked up via USB. Ask the Touchbook people how well WiFi PSM works on their internal USB dongle (hint, not well). Powersaving is not (and probably never will be) as aggressive on a USB peripheral as on a directly connected, soldered-on peripheral, thus, internal USB peripherals == **** battery life.

As far as hooking it up via any other means, modular components cost money and use up space (for an extreme example of how this works, see the BUG (http://www.buglabs.net/)). Would you be willing to sacrifice a memory card slot for your modular modem?

daperl

04-25-2009, 08:39 PM

A lot of present day applications (some of which ship with the NIT) already fail in various connectivity scenarios. For example, the IM can't keep it's status between connection changes even if it's life depended on it. Canola also has this nasty habit of disrespecting flight mode. Yes, I know, the canonical answer is that I should have filed a bug report - except I think if more app devs get it wrong than right, IMO it's not an application bug.

Application-awareness is a great topic. I fancy myself better-than-average in the art of multi-threading and asynchronous/synchronous communications. I'm very comfortable thinking about such things. Again, good for me. But as important and difficult as these concepts can be while trying to insure a robust mobile experience, a powerful IDE can hide or abstract them from your average developer.

If the Fremantle API's are any indication, Nokia seems very serious about their future application framework. And once the Maemo 5 devices are in play and some of the dust settles, it would then be a perfect time to place a spectacular IDE on top of the SDK. It'll be a circus; Nokia just needs to execute.

But even then, I still think I'm years away from trading in my vi and an xterm.

daperl

04-25-2009, 09:54 PM

Neither your battery nor your SD cards are hooked up via USB. Ask the Touchbook people how well WiFi PSM works on their internal USB dongle (hint, not well). Powersaving is not (and probably never will be) as aggressive on a USB peripheral as on a directly connected, soldered-on peripheral, thus, internal USB peripherals == **** battery life.

As far as computing goes, few things are more important to me than optimization. And I know on some level you feel similarly. I quote you all the time when referring to this subject, "racing to idle." I'm not sure if that's exactly what you say, and I'm guessing the original idea isn't yours, but I give you full credit for presenting it to me that way.

As far as USB goes, maybe the 3.0 spec takes care of your concerns? I don't know? And I'm not sure how much I care at the moment. I used USB for my example because it's modular and some of the cellular companys are offering it to their laptop customers. If it's doing a poor job of power-saving, shame on everyone.

But my opinion still stands: a modular cellular solution for the tablets is doable and practical. And I'm not saying that the trade-offs (if there are any) between modularity and power consumption are to be ignored. But I am speculating that if it's presently an issue, it can quickly become a non-issue with simple innovation.

And don't forget what my uncle Olaph used to say, "First make it work, then make it work better."

As far as hooking it up via any other means, modular components cost money and use up space (for an extreme example of how this works, see the BUG (http://www.buglabs.net/)). Would you be willing to sacrifice a memory card slot for your modular modem?I've already sacrificed a memory card, I'll offer up my keyboard instead. :)

GeneralAntilles

04-25-2009, 10:13 PM

As far as computing goes, few things are more important to me than optimization. And I know on some level you feel similarly. I quote you all the time when referring to this subject, "racing to idle." I'm not sure if that's exactly what you say, and I'm guessing the original idea isn't yours, but I give you full credit for presenting it to me that way.

No, it's definitely not my idea (I believe igor introduced me to the term, actually), but it's definitely the best way I've heard the concept described.

As far as USB goes, maybe the 3.0 spec takes care of your concerns? I don't know?

I wish I knew. Is USB's current poor power saving a technical limitation or simply due to the applications most USB dongles end up in (definitely not attached to power-sipping mobile devices)?

But my opinion still stands: a modular cellular solution for the tablets is doable and practical. And I'm not saying that the trade-offs (if there are any) between modularity and power consumption are to be ignored. But I am speculating that if it's presently an issue, it can quickly become a non-issue with simple innovation.

Let's look at it another way. How many people with very modular desktops ever upgrade them (install a new graphics card, CPU, hard drive, whatever)? How many people with modular laptops ever upgrade them (RAM, hard drives, wireless connectivity, whatever)?

I don't have any hard numbers to back this up (other than observing friends, family, and coworkers), but I'd say very few people ever upgrade their computers. They're much more likely to simply purchase new machines.

Accepting that, how much sense do you think it would make for Nokia to make feature(s) like cellular data modular? Not much, I'd say. It's an awful large compromise to ask of the vast majority of users who will never, ever take advantage that modularity.

I've already sacrificed a memory card, I'll offer up my keyboard instead. :)

Let's propose something else. What if, instead of a costly (to the customer) modular option Nokia offered several different devices for the Maemo platform. Each with a different set of options, some lower-end, some higher (much like Nokia's current cellular phone lineup).

That way, you could pick the device that suits you (say, the lower-end $250 tablet without 3G, accelerometers, FM RX/TX, GPS, or a hardware keyboard etc.) and somebody else could pick the device that suits them ($600, all the fixin's, hardware keyboard, etc.) and you're both happy without having to deal with the modularity compromise (which is a big one to swallow on mobile devices).

daperl

04-26-2009, 12:37 AM

...other than observing friends, family, and coworkers), but I'd say very few people ever upgrade their computers. They're much more likely to simply purchase new machines.

Accepting that, how much sense do you think it would make for Nokia to make feature(s) like cellular data modular? Not much, I'd say. It's an awful large compromise to ask of the vast majority of users who will never, ever take advantage that modularity.

I have nothing to say about family, friends and upgrading. If I tried, my head would come off.

I seem to have too much to say about everything else, but I'll try to keep that from happening and instead I'll just make these strange random remarks.

If I had cellular technology tightly coupled with a primary computing device, my feeling would be that I would have a sub-optimal joining of 2 different industries. My opinion is that the computing industry and the communications industry should be loosely coupled at best. Especially in my hardware. <an oldy but a goody Nokia example>How would you like to be an n810 WiMAX owner with the equivalent of a dead rat inside?</an oldy but a goody Nokia example>

I own my cell phone outright, but because of its tight coupling with my service provider, it seems like a leased device, no different than my DVR and my cable modem. I don't think twice about this; they serve their purposes just fine.

And lastly, modular would put the mobile back in mobile.

Let's propose something else. What if, instead of a costly (to the customer) modular option Nokia offered several different devices for the Maemo platform. Each with a different set of options, some lower-end, some higher (much like Nokia's current cellular phone lineup).

That way, you could pick the device that suits you (say, the lower-end $250 tablet without 3G, accelerometers, FM RX/TX, GPS, or a hardware keyboard etc.) and somebody else could pick the device that suits them ($600, all the fixin's, hardware keyboard, etc.) and you're both happy without having to deal with the modularity compromise (which is a big one to swallow on mobile devices).Well, sure. Sounds like car shopping. But I must warn you, 2 of my last 4 auto purchases were made-to-order directly from the manufacturer. I got exactly what I wanted. I'm guessing your talking about something a little less personal.

konttori

04-26-2009, 01:33 AM

By the way, I wholeheartedly do agree with texrat how remarkable i saw the 770 at the time. It was a one of a kind device. I still like it more than any of the devices that have come out since.

konttori

04-26-2009, 01:35 AM

Forgot to comment on the above that I am pretty darn excited about the next launch though.

qole

04-26-2009, 03:35 AM

It saddens me that Nokia *seems* to be moving away from elements that made the tablets distinct and toward homogenization that would make them more or less like anyone else's offerings.

Nokia had a chance to create and seize a new market, and fumbled the ball... despite the evangelism of many inside the company in favor of pushing the tablets hard.

It later became extremely frustrating for me due to a singular event...

...In no time I was developing a web-based mobile auditing app with the tablets in mind. Unfortunately, VPN was not officially supported. A colleague in Finland cobbled up a rough gui vpn tool for internal use only and before long I had a working alpha of my vision: a means of freeing our product and delivery auditors to enter defects as they found them instead of trotting back to a desktop PC. My manager was ecstatic. This was working smart!

I blogged (internally) and emailed about the experience and pushed for an enterprise project to incorporate the 770 into our operations...

My (admittedly limited) knowledge of what Maemo SW is trying to do with Maemo 5 suggests that Maemo continues to push closer to an OS on which this kind of application can be developed easily and without hacking, rather than farther away...

I suspect that Nokia's going to put a glossy skin over Fremantle that will appeal to the iPhone / Symbian crowd, but, just under that glossy, 3D surface, it's all standard Linux components. You want to run a standard LAMP stack on your new Maemo handheld? I'm sure it will be straightforward to get it working quickly and without a hassle. I bet we'll see OpenOffice and Quake 3 running on the Fremantle devices within weeks of them being released.

Unlike some gloaters around here, I don't have a Fremantle Device to fondle, but I suspect the same philosophy that's being applied to the software is being applied to the hardware. Make the threshold for the iPhone crowd low enough to get mainstream consumers to consider buying it, but, wherever possible, don't hobble the functionality for the geek crowd that makes up the bulk of the current maemo.org community.

It seems to me that the Maemo team understands the fine line they have to walk here: appeal to a larger audience, but don't alienate your current users. I really think we should trust that they're thinking of us, too, when they make design decisions. Yes, there's going to be tension; they're being pulled in many directions. There are many stakeholders, and not all of them understand what's going on. And yes, there's lots of money involved. More money, I think, than ever before.

This whole program is a huge risk for a big, old corporation, and there are probably a lot of powerful men in suits wearing big frowns every time they look in the direction of the Maemo offices. They're hoping this will all fail, and if it does, they plan to be wearing smug smiles and saying "I told you so; this open source stuff is nonsense," as they tear down the whole department. They rubbed their hands together gleefully when the WiMax thing fell apart, and they're probably working quietly even now, trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt about this project throughout the ranks of Nokia management. "This really isn't the economic climate to be making these kinds of risky experiments," they're whispering, "We should be focusing our limited resources on strategies that we know work, not crazy, unproven schemes..."

Meanwhile, the tablet community is getting increasingly restless. We're frustrated by the lack of communication we're getting from Nokia, we're frustrated at the long gaps between hardware refreshes, we're used to open source projects that are run by hackers out of their basements, not by international corporations entangled by complex webs of contracts and obligations, and we don't understand what's taking them so long and why they're holding their cards so close to their chests. Just GPL it and give it to us!

There are many of us who are also worried about what we saw in the movement from the N800 to the N810. We saw compromises being made, and we didn't like the compromises. We worry that we're going to see more of those compromises being made in coming generations, and, you know what? We're probably right. There's going to be compromises, and I'm sure many of us are going to be a bit disappointed in the position of the d-pad, layout of the keyboard, the options for removable storage, etc, etc...

But we have to remember that there's two sides to every line, and you can fall off a tightrope in either direction. I sincerely believe that the Nokia Maemo team values the existing community a great deal, and I believe that they're fighting the good fight for us inside the belly of the beast. But they can't give us everything we want. I'm sure they'll give us as much as they can, without getting sucked down the throat of the whirlpool. (or are we Scylla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylla_and_Charybdis)?)

The simple fact of the times is that Nokia needs to get the Fremantle devices noticed by Engadget and its ilk, and it needs to attract some consumer interest in these little handheld computers that it is making. The Maemo devices (up 'till now, known as the Internet Tablets) have always been paradigm-shifting, revolutionary things. They're so revolutionary, that ~4 years later, they still don't fit into any of the existing categories (except their own).

Nokia really needs that glossy surface to push the Maemo devices into the limelight so that the world can really see just how revolutionary they are. They need to be friendly and usable enough for the people who don't have the patience with the current tablets' shortcomings that we geeks have.

And, frankly, I think we need it too.

And if you want the Ultra-Geeky, developed-in-a-basement, designed by the community for the community, open source device, there's always the Pandora (http://openpandora.org/). Which I really hope doesn't ship first.

markku

04-26-2009, 03:48 AM

Thanks qole, great writing!

debernardis

04-26-2009, 03:51 AM

I really hope it's possible to go under the shiny glossy appearance. Otherwise I won't buy an iphonokia!

attila77

04-26-2009, 06:13 AM

Let's look at it another way. How many people with very modular desktops ever upgrade them (install a new graphics card, CPU, hard drive, whatever)? How many people with modular laptops ever upgrade them (RAM, hard drives, wireless connectivity, whatever)?

I don't have any hard numbers to back this up (other than observing friends, family, and coworkers), but I'd say very few people ever upgrade their computers. They're much more likely to simply purchase new machines.

The modularity of PCs is I believe mostly historical. It did help to bring costs down when the components were specialized and very expensive (I'm talking 8086 and 80286 days here), but in the meantime the lifetime and cost of said components decreased to the level that often the interface is more expensive than the silicon. This effect is even strengthtened by the kitchensink approach of modern chipsets/PoPs. With the advance of 'good enough' computing, even PCs succumbed to that trend - see the all-in-ones that are starting to appear and that have, IMHO a good chance of replacing the vast majority of current, super-extendable boxy PCs. Apple got this figured out long ago - integrated for the masses and componentized for pros. Mid-high level graphics cards are probably the only component that has a solid reasoning (e.g. choice of chips, SLI/crossfire, etc), everything else is/has gone to motherboard or USB/firewire.

lemmyslender

04-26-2009, 09:07 AM

I don't plan on spending big bucks like you have to for iPhone connectivity. If Nokia is coming out with two models, and both enable a cellular data connection, my hope is that Nokia has cut a deal to allow it to be used with a cheap, prepaid data solution, analogous to T-Mobile's prepaid phone card, for those of us who are generally happy to rely on WiFi.

If I had my druthers, Nokia would also come out with a non-celldata-capable, no-hardware-keyboard model -- that is, an N800 that was faster and smaller than the original (while keeping the same screen size and resolution), and cheap. It would be the iTouch-competitor for people who are willing to sacrifice a little (though not as much as currently required) on bulk in order to gain a bigger, and 800x480, screen.

And, yeah, as far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer a stylus, too. But even if Nokia dumps the stylus, if they can make an interface with the sensitivity to make a finger as precise as a stylus, I'd still like this new Son-of-N800.

Let's propose something else. What if, instead of a costly (to the customer) modular option Nokia offered several different devices for the Maemo platform. Each with a different set of options, some lower-end, some higher (much like Nokia's current cellular phone lineup).

That way, you could pick the device that suits you (say, the lower-end $250 tablet without 3G, accelerometers, FM RX/TX, GPS, or a hardware keyboard etc.) and somebody else could pick the device that suits them ($600, all the fixin's, hardware keyboard, etc.) and you're both happy without having to deal with the modularity compromise (which is a big one to swallow on mobile devices).

Firstly, I don't have an Iphone or even a data contract :) Probably 90% or better of my time is spent in areas where I have wifi coverage. Basically, the only time I don't have coverage is in the car, and I'm generally not using my tablet then.

You both have hit on what I'd like to see Nokia do. A high end "fully loaded" model and a much cheaper "economy" model.

If I had my preference, a N800 like model, perhaps with a keyboard, no cellular data, lower quality camera, not required (but would be nice): gps, fm rx/tx, accelerometers. I'm thinking more like $350 versus $600. Not a base model, but not fully loaded either.

There are too many non-direct (net-books, etc) competitors in that $200-$400 price range for Nokia to ignore it. On the other hand, if I could get fully loaded for under $400, I guess I could live with that.

GeraldKo

04-26-2009, 03:26 PM

At least for the United States, you have to figure that Nokia is working hand-in-hand with a carrier (or carriers) to compete with Apple/AT&T. More than we wish, the carriers have a say in what gets built.

Perhaps not. Lots of other non-phone devices have SIM card slots: UMPCs, MIDs, netbooks and laptops. Do the carriers get a say in how they are built? Do the carriers there control what Microsoft can do when running on them?

...

I wouldn't be expecting the primary sales route for the Maemo 5 devices to be through mobile phone retailers and carrier contracts.

I think they'll be sold as high-end, unlocked, unsubsidised devices primarily.

There's something I don't understand then. (OK, one of many things I don't understand.) There was all this talk about how Apple had to make a deal with AT&T to let the iPhone use its spectrum more freely. First Apple approached Verizon, but Verizon wouldn't let Apple open it up for uses not controlled by the carrier. It wasn't just that Apple wanted a deal where AT&T would also be an iPhone seller and would subsidize the purchases; there was a big deal made about AT&T giving up control of the uses of the spectrum. (Was all this changed during the wrangling when Google was threatening to buy up bandwidth at auction?)

Earlier comments by Nokia, shortly after the Maemo 5 announcements, were along the lines that adding the cellular hardware didn't add much to the end price, and that you wouldn't have to use it.

Doesn't this contradict General Antilles' remarks that
... applications are being designed to assume a data connection ?

GeneralAntilles

04-26-2009, 03:34 PM

Doesn't this contradict General Antilles' remarks that
?

Hardly. You don't have to use it but it doesn't mean your experience wont be slightly impaired.

krisse

04-26-2009, 03:43 PM

Perhaps they dropped the stylus keyboard because they expect it to have a physical keyboard?

Perhaps the screen will be physically so large that there is no need for a stylus-only keyboard (i.e. the finger keyboard will only take up a small portion of the screen)?

I'm speculating that there will be no physical pencil-like stylus and stylus holder in, on or around the product. Has qgil said otherwise? A guitar pick dangling from a string doesn't count.

The 5800 has a stylus built-in, the plectrum is an optional phone charm mainly there because of the 5800's full name (5800 XpressMusic).

I have had a 5800 for several months now and I've never used the stylus at all, it just sits in its compartment.

Incidentally, the next touchscreen S60, the N97, has no stylus at all. It uses the same OS and screen resolution as the 5800, but it has a physically larger screen so perhaps Nokia feel that large screen devices have less need for styluses because everything is more finger-sized.

daperl

04-26-2009, 04:09 PM

Perhaps they dropped the stylus keyboard because they expect it to have a physical keyboard?

Nokia gave me a stylus and a keyboard for my n810.

Perhaps the screen will be physically so large that there is no need for a stylus-only keyboard (i.e. the finger keyboard will only take up a small portion of the screen)?If I can hold it in one hand I'll be using a stylus.

The 5800 has a stylus built-in, the plectrum is an optional phone charm mainly there because of the 5800's full name (5800 XpressMusic).My last car came with a guitar and 3 plectrums. I think my horn is middle C.

I have had a 5800 for several months now and I've never used the stylus at all, it just sits in its compartment.I've had my n810 for several months and I don't use the keyboard. Sometimes my son likes me to slide it open so he can look at the pretty buttons.

Your 5800 vs. n810 thread inspired me to take a closer look at my current gadgets. Notice my phone is slightly larger than the 800x480 screen. That's all I need. If Nokia would make the screen close-to-flush with the edges and put all the buttons on the side I would be very happy. (The n800 screen is the same size as the n810 screen.)

3389

krisse

04-26-2009, 04:17 PM

Your 5800 vs. n810 thread inspired me to take a closer look at my current gadgets. Notice my phone is slightly larger than the 800x480 screen. That's all I need. If Nokia would make the screen close-to-flush with the edges and put all the buttons on the side I would be very happy. (The n800 screen is the same size as the n810 screen.)

The thing is, that's sort of what they're doing with the N97. The resolution isn't quite as good as the tablets, but it's pretty close. Here's one of the official pics to give an idea of scale:

http://conversations.nokia.com/wp-content/uploads/products-and-services-video-first-impressions-of-the-nokia-n97.jpg

This is a pure guess, but I would assume (or hope!) that because the N97 is already covering the N810-size territory, they'll move Maemo devices onto the market for even larger devices, approaching netbook-size.

daperl

04-26-2009, 04:39 PM

The thing is, that's sort of what they're doing with the N97. The resolution isn't quite as good as the tablets, but it's pretty close. Here's one of the official pics to give an idea of scale:
I like the N97. I hope it's a big hit. What makes it undesireable for me is:

It's going to cost $600 - $800
It's going to be using an ARM OMAP2 processor
It's going to be running Symbian

This is a pure guess, but I would assume (or hope!) that because the N97 is already covering the N810-size territory, they'll move Maemo devices onto the market for even larger devices, approaching netbook-size.

That would be a bummer for me. Unless Nokia is going to increase the resolution, which doesn't seem to be the case, I actually want the tablets to get smaller.

You might find this strange, but some of us are using our tablets as desktop computers. Not because we can, but because the devices can. But we're not looking for netbooks; we're looking for pocketbooks.

GeraldKo

04-26-2009, 04:46 PM

Krisse, how about those of us who don't want a cellphone but want a pocketable device with 800x480 resolution? You throwin' us to the wolves?

Also, don't you think Nokia wants to compete with the iPod touch?

GeneralAntilles

04-26-2009, 04:52 PM

You might find this strange, but some us are using our tablets as desktop computers. Not because we can, but because the devices can.

A netbook doesn't suite my needs because I can't take it out of the house (I very rarely have much more on me than a cellphone, tablet, watch, wallet, keys and a Leatherman—assuming I'm not on campus), and you make the tablets much smaller and they basically become hyped-up smartphones. It's the formfactor that makes them great, change it too much and you've got a commodity item that doesn't fill my needs.

But we're not looking for netbooks; we're looking for pocketbooks.

How telling. ;)

krisse

04-26-2009, 05:26 PM

Krisse, how about those of us who don't want a cellphone but want a pocketable device with 800x480 resolution? You throwin' us to the wolves?

Sorry, I should be a bit clearer. I don't want to stop people having pocket computers. I used to own a Psion 3 when they first came out, it was a very handy gadget. If I had control over the gadget market I'd be letting everyone have whatever kind of device suits their needs.

As I'm not in control of anything though, I'm trying to guess what is likely to happen in the real world.

At the moment, the vast vast majority of the pocket computer market is made up of phones and smartphones, and the rest is media players, games consoles, navigators, PDAs and ebook readers. If you make a pocket computer that isn't any of these things, it will almost certainly fail commercially.

By avoiding being in a phone/media player/console/pda/reader/navigator, maemo is being like a very expensive TV series that is only watched by a hardcore of fans, with no one else tuning in. I've been a fan of many series like that :p , and they never last long. I wish they did but they don't. :(

Also, don't you think Nokia wants to compete with the iPod touch?

If the new maemo devices are marketed as media players, and have a media-centric interface to match the marketing, then maybe they will compete with the iPod Touch.

I'd love to see that happen, I was calling for Canola to be made the main tablet interface for ages (and got lots of hate mail as a result).

But the tablets so far haven't done anything like this, they've just stuck to the "general pocket computer" line.

GeraldKo

04-26-2009, 05:58 PM

At the moment, the vast vast majority of the pocket computer market is made up of phones and smartphones, and the rest is media players, games consoles, navigators, PDAs and ebook readers. If you make a pocket computer that isn't any of these things, it will almost certainly fail commercially.

My N800 isn't a cellphone, but it already takes the place, wonderfully, of "media players, games consoles, navigators, PDAs and ebook readers." OK, not a PDA, but that has always seemed to me like a huge lacuna in Nokia's NIT offering and one they really ought to take seriously and include.

If Nokia offered the Tablet with Personal Menu, containing a good subset of what I currently have there, it would obviously and successfully fill all those categories. Who then would want to carry all those different devices individually? It already is my ebook reader, game console, navigator, and (except when I want something tiny) media player.

Nokia just needs to set it up that way at the factory and present it to the consumer as such at the time they open the box. Some of the apps could take a little polishing (PDA's could take a lot more than that), but they're pretty much there already. And you can add sketchpad (if they'll let us keep the stylus in the unit), pdf viewer, movie viewer, etc. Who then would want to lug around a Garmin, a Kindle, and an Archos. It's just a matter of "packaging," in the widest sense.

(I don't know that most people regard the iPod Touch as primarily a media player. It's great at it, but the touch-owners I know regard it foremost as a web browser and ebook reader. But, like the Tablet could do, it has -- apart from GPS -- your whole list covered. And the iPhone is all of them.)

I agree that for out-of-the-box, Canola should be featured. I don't much like it compared to alternatives, but it's perfect for the average user, and the rest of us can modify our apps. It just wouldn't be that hard for Nokia to offer your whole list at the level of Canola's elegance and superficial ease. Hopefully, for the next iteration they will.

GeneralAntilles

04-26-2009, 06:05 PM

I agree that for out-of-the-box, Canola should be featured.

The problem with bundling things for out-of-the-box is that it dramatically changes the requirements for the software (mostly for the worse).

Trust me, you don't want Nokia's grubby fingers all over the community cookie jar. :)

krisse

04-26-2009, 06:15 PM

If Nokia offered the Tablet with Personal Menu, containing a good subset of what I currently have there, it would obviously and successfully fill all those categories. Who then would want to carry all those different devices individually? It already is my ebook reader, game console, navigator, and (except when I want something tiny) media player.

...but it isn't your phone, and that's the problem.

If you want it to be an all-in-one gadget, it has to include telephony.

Trying to be an all-in-one gadget without including telephony is not going to work, because that's the most-used function of pocket gadgets.

There are villages full of people earning a dollar a day, who don't even have regular electricity or television sets, yet even they stump together the cash to buy mobile phones because they find it so useful.

GeraldKo

04-26-2009, 06:28 PM

...but it isn't your phone, and that's the problem.

If you want it to be an all-in-one gadget, it has to include telephony.

Trying to be an all-in-one gadget without including telephony is not going to work, because that's the most-used function of pocket gadgets.

First off, the iPod touch doesn't seem to be having much trouble making sales. And it isn't a telephone.

Besides that, I don't think many people want a telephone as large as the Tablets. So there's an inherent trade-off between screen size and cellphone expectation. Apple went with a reduced screen size and did what you're saying with the iPhone. Personally, I prefer the two-gizmo solution, which allows for the larger screen size.

You seem to think that no matter how it were configured, the NIT form factor is bound to fail.

One solution is to have the NIT form factor, with the cellphone capability, but not make people use it. Maybe with bluetooth headsets, there's a larger segment willing to have a NIT-sized telephone.

GA, is the RX-51's built-in cell-data capability the same hardware-wise as a cellphone requires?

Snoshrk

04-26-2009, 06:53 PM

Just my $.02 on telephony...

My N800 has lasted through a couple of different cell phones with differing connectivity and speeds ( darn cell providers )

I would rather keep the connectivity separate & therefore upgradable, than replace an all-in-one style device when 3G goes to xG...

GeraldKo

04-26-2009, 07:16 PM

The problem with bundling things for out-of-the-box is that it dramatically changes the requirements for the software (mostly for the worse).

Trust me, you don't want Nokia's grubby fingers all over the community cookie jar. :)

I don't get it. Why can't Nokia include the software the way it wants, just like there are different distributions of Linux? The community can still do what it wants with the open source apps. And some of them -- Canola specifically -- were developed by Nokia, or an affiliate thereof.

It makes much more sense to me for Nokia to bundle those things and make it a great right-out-of-the-box experience for the non-tinkerer, if it ever wants the Tablets to succeed in the mass market. That approach doesn't stop those who want to tinker from tinkering. Everybody wins.

Texrat

04-26-2009, 07:29 PM

OK, I see all the Thanks! at the bottom of your post, but I don't "get" it.

You sort of throw these two points out there, then ramble a bit about manufacturing and losing your job (which is interesting to read, but doesn't really give me any clue to what's prompted you to write the quoted text).

So, do you mind elaborating a bit on exactly what it is that you see them losing?

I was generalizing, sure, but that doesn't mean it was necessarily pointless. The clues you seek are all over this forum.

I think the points have been covered well enough; I was just encapsulating at a high level. But suffice to say failing to provide continuity in the product line was, IMO, a losing move. Again, I point to the lack of an N800 refresh. That's just one example under my generally rambling umbrella.

Allowing gaps in product releases and coverage means opportunities for competitors. That didn't have to happen.

I'd ramble some more but I'm a bit tired. Went on a job search burst this weekend and it's taken its toll. I'm up to 130+ applications and managing them is a nightmare...

Texrat

04-26-2009, 07:35 PM

My (admittedly limited) knowledge of what Maemo SW is trying to do with Maemo 5 suggests that Maemo continues to push closer to an OS on which this kind of application can be developed easily and without hacking, rather than farther away...

I meant hardware. Sorry for not making that clear.

lma

04-26-2009, 08:11 PM

GeneralAntilles

04-26-2009, 08:17 PM

I don't get it. Why can't Nokia include the software the way it wants, just like there are different distributions of Linux?

They can, but I can almost guarantee you you don't want it the way Nokia wants it. ;)

The community can still do what it wants with the open source apps. And some of them -- Canola specifically -- were developed by Nokia, or an affiliate thereof.

Canola was not developed by Nokia. :)

It makes much more sense to me for Nokia to bundle those things and make it a great right-out-of-the-box experience for the non-tinkerer, if it ever wants the Tablets to succeed in the mass market. That approach doesn't stop those who want to tinker from tinkering. Everybody wins.

No, when Nokia's involved it makes much more sense for them to make it easy for people to open the box and get quick, easy access to the accessories they may wish to install. Bundling things just results in a lot of needless overhead for the community and Nokia.

lemmyslender

04-26-2009, 08:26 PM

I'm not looking for a convergence device. I prefer a smaller inconspicuous phone. It's easy to take places you want to have a phone, but not the undightly bulge or case hanging off your belt. The tablets (and even the iphone) are just too large for that. Plus as snoshrk pointed out, it makes it easy to upgrade your connectivity cheaply.

I think Nokia has to make a big move with the upcoming generation of tablets, letting them go another generation may be one too many. The upcoming tablets should be able to run most programs reasonably and watch unconverted dvd quality video wiith ease. Computer manufacturers are having an increasinly difficult time finding buyers. Many computers 3+ years old are still "good enough" for most tasks for the masses. From a hardware standpoint, the upcoming generation of mobile devices may be "good enough" for most uses. After that, the potential market begins shrinking as fewer people upgrade every generation for minimally faster load times and minimally better battery life. Particularly if their current device is meeting their needs.

I started off with a HP320LX, didn't do much with lt though, a novelty really. A couple of years ago, I bought a Palm Zire 31, within 6 months I had upgraded to a Palm TX, after about a year I got the itch again. There wasn't much out there to compete with the TX. The key point was the resolution (320x480). Most other reasonably priced devices had lower resolutions. The TX had several flaws, and I wasn't satisfied with anythimg until I found the Nokia tablets. I picked up my N800 on ebay, transfer some files, loaded some software, and haven't picked up my TX since. I'm looking forward to the signnificantly better hardware in the upcoming tablets, but I think it would take an even larger hardware change to get me to jump quickly again.

Texrat

04-26-2009, 09:18 PM

Canola was not developed by Nokia. :)

INDT is an affiliate, as he said.

GeneralAntilles

04-26-2009, 10:22 PM

INDT is an affiliate, as he said.

He also said "developed by Nokia" and I wanted to make it perfectly clear that INdT is not Nokia. :)

Texrat

04-26-2009, 10:26 PM

He also said "developed by Nokia" and I wanted to make it perfectly clear that INdT is not Nokia. :)

For crying out loud, Ryan, he included an "or". His intent was perfectly clear.

Is it really that important to quibble over semantics?

Cripes allmighty...

GeneralAntilles

04-26-2009, 10:40 PM

Cripes allmighty...

Or else you'll storm out again? ;)

Anyway, for several good reasons why I'd rather not see good community applications bundled with Maemo, you only have to look at far as the bungling involved in Nokia's own bundled applications.

Personally, I think it's better to focus on making Extras top-notch quality and making sure it's available in the Application Manager right from the first boot. Having a "blessed" set of applications may discourage other developers with similar applications, or discourage new developers from trying to create any competition. New users need to know that they can get other stuff and have a good experience doing it, but forcing a certain set of that stuff on them just seems like a poor way to go about it.

lemmyslender

04-27-2009, 05:52 AM

Personally, I think it's better to focus on making Extras top-notch quality and making sure it's available in the Application Manager right from the first boot. Having a "blessed" set of applications may discourage other developers with similar applications, or discourage new developers from trying to create any competition. New users need to know that they can get other stuff and have a good experience doing it, but forcing a certain set of that stuff on them just seems like a poor way to go about it.

Doesn't doing it this way just result in a larger set of "blesseed" apps? New user gets tablet, goes to extras, sees there's already 2 "top notch" similar apps, and fiigures why bother with a third? Make the "top notch" bar too high and you'll stiffle competition anyway, or just lead to the creation of multiple repo's like now.

If you install a fixed set of apps by default (much like any othher liinux distro) a new can open the box,charge the tablet and get to work/play enjoying the tablet. Just make it easy to remove/replace the default apps. Then when a user outgrowws them (whether down the road, or immediately on first boot) they can jump to extras and install/remove whatever they want.

I'd bet that if Nokia chose from the "top notch" extras apps, a lot of new users wouldn't find there way here because they wouldn't need to. Ship a "bare" unit, and you'll get a ton of newbies here asking how to install * or which one of * similar appss should I use (despite any included instructions or stickies). Worse yet, many would feel the tabblet "sucks" without evn explorng the Extras repo (enabled or not).

Texrat

04-27-2009, 09:10 AM

Or else you'll storm out again? ;)

Ah yes, a mature comment befitting a community council member... :rolleyes:

jolouis

04-27-2009, 10:03 AM

Two points: 1) Tex, we all know how... particular... GA can be in his comments and viewpoints; I agree that he was going waaay over the top on the nitpicking there... but like all of us despite these moments he does do a lot for driving the community (if a bit rough and annoying around the edges from time to time); don't let him get to ya, a community's all about diversity, while we all have some common interests and goals most of us have a slightly different approach to going about them... that's what makes this such a nice well rounded group (esp. compared to a lot of the other open source devels that have been around longer and tend to end up with forums that have coders who belittle new commers rather than trying to help them!).
2) I'm with Lemmy on this point... while I don't think bundling every app under the sun is the best option, one of the biggest problems with the NITs for newcommers has always been "What the heck do I do with this thing?"; I mean my brother is an exceptionally techie guy, but he was only interested in the tablets after I explained to him all the stuff that he could install and do with it beyond what it appeared to be on the surface. I think that's the underlying problem with the devices... and I hope things like the new App Marketplace (sorry was that Ovi store or something? I'm sure GA will jump in with the correct syntax to fill my general statement here... pun fully intended) will help at least make people aware of the possibilities, along with the cleaned up and stronger emphasis on main repositories.

One thing that I wonder if the Maemo Community Council has talked about or considered is some purposed meta-packages? For example, as with all Linux projects, the downside to open source is that there are often a whole whack of apps that do the same thing... and of course come with crazy names that often do have a terrible lot of relevance to them. No problem there, but I think from a newbie point of view if I could open up the app manager and have the choice of "customize my tablet for general purpose X"... so new users get the ability to easily choose from a few "community created bundles" if they don't know specifically what apps they want, but just that they want to do some fun extra stuff. They can always go back later and remove specific apps or install specific new ones, but I think some of these "groups of apps" would go a long way (esp if they were presented properly) to get more newbies into the idea of installing external programs.

Just my two cents anyways....

qole

04-27-2009, 12:29 PM

I meant hardware. Sorry for not making that clear.

Texrat, I know you were talking about the hardware. We don't have the hardware yet, but we do have the software, in the form of an Alpha SDK. And so I launched my post from the software side because that's what we've got at the moment.

If you have the opportunity, please go back and read my post again, starting from this paragraph:

Unlike some gloaters around here, I don't have a Fremantle Device to fondle, but I suspect the same philosophy that's being applied to the software is being applied to the hardware. Make the threshold for the iPhone crowd low enough to get mainstream consumers to consider buying it, but, wherever possible, don't hobble the functionality for the geek crowd that makes up the bulk of the current maemo.org community....

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 12:52 PM

Doesn't doing it this way just result in a larger set of "blesseed" apps? New user gets tablet, goes to extras, sees there's already 2 "top notch" similar apps, and fiigures why bother with a third? Make the "top notch" bar too high and you'll stiffle competition anyway, or just lead to the creation of multiple repo's like now.

Where, exactly, is the third application? If it's some random .deb on the internet, I'd say they better damn well not mess with it. The "top-notch" isn't so much a raised bar to create an exclusive club as a goal everybody in the community should be working towards. That's why we hire people like Jeremiah to help developers package their applications and get them to users.

Either way, 2 options are better than the one you'd get when you're bundling things.

The point everybody seems to be ignoring, though, is that, when Nokia's involved, it's not as simple as just "bundling" things. There will be certain requirements and limits placed on them that the community is unlikely to like very much. When you make your product a part of the Nokia experience, it has to conform to the Nokia experience.

I'd bet that if Nokia chose from the "top notch" extras apps, a lot of new users wouldn't find there way here because they wouldn't need to. Ship a "bare" unit, and you'll get a ton of newbies here asking how to install * or which one of * similar appss should I use (despite any included instructions or stickies). Worse yet, many would feel the tabblet "sucks" without evn explorng the Extras repo (enabled or not).

If newbies never show up here, then they never get an opportunity to become community members. Now, I'm not saying that we should hamstring our product to get people to show up here, but the whole-and-complete out-of-the-box experience that Apple offers just isn't what this platform is about.

GeraldKo

04-27-2009, 01:43 PM

[T]he whole-and-complete out-of-the-box experience that Apple offers just isn't what this platform is about.

It isn't what this platform is about for you. Bundling won't stop people like you (or me or any regulars on this forum) from doing what each of us want. But that we want to tinker doesn't mean the Tablets can't be sold to the vast majority that does not want to tinker.

Like jolouis said (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=282335&postcount=180), "one of the biggest problems with the NITs for newcommers has always been "What the heck do I do with this thing?"; I mean my brother is an exceptionally techie guy, but he was only interested in the tablets after I explained to him all the stuff that he could install and do with it beyond what it appeared to be on the surface."

I have a close friend who was a long-time high-level engineer at Applied Materials. Inspired by my enthusiasm for the N800, he bought an N810. He played with it a little bit, decided he didn't really want to bother with it in his free time, and returned it and bought an iPod Touch.

My girlfriend traded in her N800 for an iPod touch, and it wasn't until I saw her using the touch that I saw what she had wanted the N800 to do! And they were things I could have installed and tweaked to her satisfaction.

Nothing you have said shows the cause-and-effect of how bundling well-developed apps would actually hinder developers. You say that bundling "chosen" apps would discourage people in the open source community from developing alternatives or advancing development of the bundled apps. But I look at tear (competes with the provided MicroB), Advanced Backlight Statusbar Applet (competes with the provided Backlight control), Maemo Mapper (competes with Wayfinder), emelfm2 (competes with the provided File manager), the myriad apps that compete with the built-in media player, etc., and I don't see the innovation-killing effect to which you refer. (Don't get hung up on the word "competes" -- I just mean they occupy the same or overlapping niches.)

It seems to me that you have some sort of Purist notion that, were Nokia to follow it, would just be a way to shoot itself in the foot. Let them make something with mass appeal but permit the developers and the more adventurous to take it without restriction to new places.

(Really, GA, it's rather strange, you wouldn't be upset if Nokia were to eliminate the stylus and stylus holder -- which really would limit certain development for such a Tablet; but you object to bundling -- which wouldn't actually preclude any development at all.)

jolouis

04-27-2009, 02:00 PM

I can kind of see what GA's trying to get at with the bundling thing, as trying to bundle third party/other people's apps into your final product means you're now liable for the failure of any/all of those apps to meet customer requirements since they're part of your "sold product". Again, okay good motivation NOT to bundle things, got it... but I still maintain that there are good, open alternatives that achieve the same goals as bundling but without the issues. Just as always, give the user the choice... but the choices have to be big and obvious... and the users have to be made aware that they have the choice. I mean even if the damn box had a big picture of the app manager and said "You can install all kinds of other cool apps to do things like X, Y and Z" it would be a step in the right direction. And I'm still going to bring up the idea of meta packages or app grouping which I really hope will be vastly improved in the future, as right now it's better than it was, but there's still a long way to go before the average end user will pick the thing up and be able to find the software to meet their needs, let alone install it and get it working...

YoDude

04-27-2009, 02:10 PM

I see this as a giant "Do Over" for the Maemo community.
Maemo.org* this time can do, and is doing a lot pre-release. Much more than what was done before the N800 IMHO.

The advantage this time is that the FOSS developed by the community for Diablo will supposedly run out of the box, on a Fremantle device. This was not always the case with the software developed for the 770 NIT. As a result searches often turned up confusing results and simple answers to questions often lead down the wrong path.

This time around everyone who uses an NIT that runs Diablo can provide advice to new users of Fremantle.

Also the typical Fremantle "nooob" is not your sister-in-law or someone who needs the box opening experience to help justify their leap of faith and (major purchase) into a geeky world that they really don't understand to well.

I was at my sisters wedding this w/e and they are avid sailors. The rehearsal dinner, wedding, reception, and next day brunch were all held at yacht clubs up and down LBI (http://lbi.net/lbimap/lbimap.asp). Family and friends were all from out of town or had boats in the various marinas.

I had my N800.

It made many new friends. :)

A whole class of potential new users were turned-on to what it could do and because sailors have limited space, it's size was the main attraction. Once they saw that it could bring up charts via Maemo Mapper (http://www.harborfinder.net/harborfinder/), tidal info via gtktide (http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/gtktide/), pick up the marina's or the many new WiFi hot spots, find and direct someone to the only open liquor store, many loved the concept.

However, after seeing my nieces and nephews entertained for hours with a few flash games (http://www.emeline.com/), the tablet dropped so hard that the battery popped out and slid across the floor, and the fact that all I did was wipe off all the sticky finger prints, put it back together and it was good to go... had many approaching me the next day asking "where do I get one of those dang things?".

IMHO, the new users we speak of will be more tech savvy than a typical iPhone user and will know what they could do with the device...

...and BTW my sister-in-law still "couldn't wait for me to show up" so I could show her how to do something on the iPhone she has had since December.

* (Are we allowed to use an upper case "M" if we start a sentence with maemo.org or are we supposed to look like maroons to the outside world ?) :)

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 02:26 PM

Nothing you have said shows the cause-and-effect of how bundling well-developed apps would actually hinder developers. You say that bundling "chosen" apps would discourage people in the open source community from developing alternatives or advancing development of the bundled apps. But I look at tear (competes with the provided MicroB), Advanced Backlight Statusbar Applet (competes with the provided Backlight control), Maemo Mapper (competes with Wayfinder), emelfm2 (competes with the provided File manager), the myriad apps that compete with the built-in media player, etc., and I don't see the innovation-killing effect to which you refer. (Don't get hung up on the word "competes" -- I just mean they occupy the same or overlapping niches.)

None of these applications are bundled, so using them as examples to refute my point about the harm bundled applications will likely come to doesn't make much sense.

It seems to me that you have some sort of Purist notion that, were Nokia to follow it, would just be a way to shoot itself in the foot. Let them make something with mass appeal but permit the developers and the more adventurous to take it without restriction to new places.

I think, unfortunately, you totally missed my point about why bundling things is bad, so I'll summarize it for you:

In order for Nokia to agree to bundle community applications, those applications are going to have to fit into the Nokia experience, this experience is not going to be the same experience you get with these applications as pure community projects. You are going to be disappointed by the requirements Nokia places on these projects.

To address 3 of your given examples directly, Advanced Backlight can never be bundled because it doesn't fit with Nokia's simplified user interface guidelines. It exposes too many options to the user, which is a problem both in testing and certification and in the user's experience with the product. Maemo Mapper can never be bundled because it walks a legal gray area by using Google/Yahoo/Microsoft's maps. Finally, emelfm2 can never be bundled because it exposes users to parts of the filesystem that could lead to rather sever system damage.

The only point that's really worth addressing in this discussion is what requirements Nokia would place on bundled applications, and it's the one point that everybody else seems to be dead-set on ignoring. ;)

(Really, GA, it's rather strange, you wouldn't be upset if Nokia were to eliminate the stylus and stylus holder -- which really would limit certain development for such a Tablet; but you object to bundling -- which wouldn't actually preclude any development at all.)

Really, it's rather strange how totally you've missed the points I was trying to make. ;)

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 02:28 PM

* (Are we allowed to use an upper case "M" if we start a sentence with maemo.org or are we supposed to look like maroons to the outside world ?) :)

maemo.org is never, ever capitalized.

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 02:35 PM

I can kind of see what GA's trying to get at with the bundling thing, as trying to bundle third party/other people's apps into your final product means you're now liable for the failure of any/all of those apps to meet customer requirements since they're part of your "sold product".

Yes, this is a large part of it.

Again, okay good motivation NOT to bundle things, got it... but I still maintain that there are good, open alternatives that achieve the same goals as bundling but without the issues.

. . . and these are the alternatives I'd like to pursue.

Just as always, give the user the choice... but the choices have to be big and obvious... and the users have to be made aware that they have the choice. I mean even if the damn box had a big picture of the app manager and said "You can install all kinds of other cool apps to do things like X, Y and Z" it would be a step in the right direction. And I'm still going to bring up the idea of meta packages or app grouping which I really hope will be vastly improved in the future, as right now it's better than it was, but there's still a long way to go before the average end user will pick the thing up and be able to find the software to meet their needs, let alone install it and get it working...

Making the Application Manager experience compelling and fun (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Improving_the_Application_manager) should be at the absolute top of our list. It should be well advertised, easy to get to, and fun to use. We need to make Extras as high-quality as possible to encourage Nokia to enable it by default and advertise it, and we need to help Nokia to put together a strong UX in h-a-m.

daperl

04-27-2009, 02:45 PM

maemo.org is never, ever capitalized.

Yes, thanks for reminding everyone. We surely wouldn't want anyone going to the eevil MAEMO.ORG (http://MAEMO.ORG/).

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 02:48 PM

Yes, thanks for reminding everyone. We surely wouldn't want anyone going to the eevil MAEMO.ORG (http://MAEMO.ORG/).

Is it really necessary to flame me for answering questions?

lemmyslender

04-27-2009, 02:49 PM

daperl

04-27-2009, 03:00 PM

Is it really necessary to flame me for answers questions?

It was funny. Laugh. Old-school internet humor is good for the community.

But if I were trying to flame you, I would probably just quote Sgt. Hulka at this point.

Keep on Truckin'.

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 03:03 PM

GA, I think you misunderstood. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It seemed that you were suggesting that if a new user turned on their tablet and found GPE Calendar installed, they would be less likely to develop/port/etc their own calendar program. I was suggesting that when they turn on their tablet, find a need for a calendar app, they would see in extras at least 2 (GPE, home), maybe more. Therefore, under your premise they would be even less likely to develop/port/etc a new calendar program.

I don't think that would be the case. As is evident (and has already been pointed out) the folks here who want a better program can and will do it.

I'm suggesting that if developers see community applications that are "blessed" by Nokia, they may be discouraged from writing their own (or further improving existing ones). Replacing vendor-provided software is slightly different from competing with vendor-endorsed community software.

Anyway, however it were to work out, there's still the point that Nokia is going to meddle with bundled applications and we aren't going to like it.

@ jolouis I really like the idea of metapackages. You want to find a good media player? Here are four bundled in one easy download/install. Try em out, find the one or two you like, uninstall the rest. You want PIM software? Here's the GPE Suite or the Home Suite (installs Calendar, Contact, Todo, widgets, etc). Excellent idea.

Metapackages are rather dirty, I'd rather have well-organized categories, good package descriptions and meta-data and user reviews right in the Application Manager.

In the case of the N8x0, even though the default media player doesn't handle larger resolution files well if at all, it doesn't mean the device can't. Sure Nokia will dumb down / fool-proof the default bundled apps somewhat. As long as we have the option to tweak or install other apps we'll be fine.

This is a good example of why bundling community applications wont work. There's a reason the built-in Media player doesn't work as well as MPlayer, and it has to do with the sort of optimizations that Nokia is willing to accept. Look at how MPlayer handles fullscreen/windowed. You notice the transition is rather ugly and that you tend to get framebuffer weirdness, right? You also notice that you never see any of that with Nokia's media player. These are the sorts of things you can't have with bundled applications, and why bundling MPlayer wouldn't work (not that it matters for Maemo 5, however, since media playback out of the box should be top-notch).

GeraldKo

04-27-2009, 03:05 PM

None of these applications are bundled, so using them as examples to refute my point about the harm bundled applications will likely come to doesn't make much sense.

Really, it's rather strange how totally you've missed the points I was trying to make. ;)

Oy. I rather think you entirely misunderstood my point! What you said above was in response to:

Nothing you have said shows the cause-and-effect of how bundling well-developed apps would actually hinder developers. You say that bundling "chosen" apps would discourage people in the open source community from developing alternatives or advancing development of the bundled apps. But I look at tear (competes with the provided MicroB), Advanced Backlight Statusbar Applet (competes with the provided Backlight control), Maemo Mapper (competes with Wayfinder), emelfm2 (competes with the provided File manager), the myriad apps that compete with the built-in media player, etc., and I don't see the innovation-killing effect to which you refer.

I'm not saying that Advanced Backlight Statusbar and emelfm2 should be bundled. I'm responding to your argument that bundling some apps will discourage developers from creating alternative apps. To wit:

Having a "blessed" set of applications may discourage other developers with similar applications, or discourage new developers from trying to create any competition.

File Manager was a "blessed" application. But pipeline brought us emelfm2 anyway. The standard backlight control was built in; but another developer created Advanced Backlight Statusbar Applet. MicroB was a "blessed" application; but Bundyo went and ported tear, nonetheless.

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 03:12 PM

File Manager was a "blessed" application. But pipeline brought us emelfm2 anyway. The standard backlight control was built in; but another developer created Advanced Backlight Statusbar Applet. MicroB was a "blessed" application; but Bundyo went and ported tear, nonetheless.

As I said above, replacing vendor-supplied applications and competing with vendor-blessed community applications are two different things.

The assumption I made earlier was that "blessed" would generally be understood to apply only to non-Nokia applications, but evidently not everybody agrees with that. So I'll say it now: I do not consider vendor-supplied software to be "blessed".

For the record, a combined backlight/volume applet was my idea. rm_you (initially) and then jott just did all of the work. ;)

krisse

04-27-2009, 03:12 PM

The point everybody seems to be ignoring, though, is that, when Nokia's involved, it's not as simple as just "bundling" things. There will be certain requirements and limits placed on them that the community is unlikely to like very much. When you make your product a part of the Nokia experience, it has to conform to the Nokia experience.

So, in summary:

In favour of bundling - New users immediately see the best that the maemo platform can do, pre-installed, without having to do any exploring or installation or tinkering. Some of the community members involved with the creation of these apps would be pleased to see them reach a mass audience.

Against bundling - Some of the community members involved with the creation of these apps would be offended and disappointed by alterations made to the apps by Nokia in order to make them meet internal corporate standards.

If that is fair summary I would definitely still tend towards bundling the best maemo apps with the tablets.

Surely one of the main aims of open source is to give others the freedom to use your work in the way they see fit?

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 03:16 PM

Against bundling - Some of the community members involved with the creation of these apps would be offended and disappointed by alterations made to the apps by Nokia in order to make them meet internal corporate standards.

Generally speaking, but it's more extreme than that. Many of these applications would be completely unacceptable for Nokia.

daperl

04-27-2009, 03:29 PM

Please stop all this fairy tale talk about "discouraging developers." It's not going to happen. Stick to the only software topic that matters: New and existing users that want a great out-of-the-box experience. Everything else should take care of itself. Or we can get back to idle hardware speculation.

krisse

04-27-2009, 03:41 PM

One big difficulty is that different people are coming to the tablets and Maemo with different expectations, and Nokia is being a bit coy saying what their full agenda is.

A lot of us are assuming our own expectations are the same as Nokia's, and Nokia seems to just agree with what everyone says. If you ask them about their plans for the community, they say it is the main aim of Maemo. If you ask them about their plans for big-selling devices, they say they are on the way.

But Nokia never says what they will do if these two aims are in conflict. They don't say what their priorities are, and as such they leave it up to us to squabble about what should happen, without giving us enough information to guess what Nokia really intends.

I wonder if Nokia has no idea itself what it wants from Maemo...

qgil

04-27-2009, 03:49 PM

If you ask them about their plans for the community, they say it is the main aim of Maemo. If you ask them about their plans for big-selling devices, they say they are on the way.

And where is the contradiction?

I wouldn't say the community is "the main aim of Maemo" but what kind of future could expect Maemo without a community?

I wouldn't say it's all about "big-selling devices" but what kind of future could expect Maemo without pursuing them?

There are reasons to think that there is a potential relation between bigger sales and a bigger community (and the other way around), isn't it.

krisse

04-27-2009, 04:01 PM

And where is the contradiction?

Sorry, I should have been clearer.

Usually, most of the time, there is no contradiction between having a vibrant development community and having a mass-market product. In fact most of the time those two things go hand in hand.

But with maemo we've got the vibrant community without a mass market product, and it's unclear (at least to me) what happens next.

Is Nokia going to carry on making a "bare bones" Maemo product that tech enthusiasts can fill with their own favourite apps, or are they going to bring out a Maemo product with lots of high quality pre-installed apps, like Nokia phones have?

There are reasons to think that there is a potential relation between bigger sales and a bigger community (and the other way around), isn't it.

I totally agree, but it's difficult to see where the sales will come from if things don't change:

Phones - sell best

Media players - sell well

Mini-laptops - sell well

Consoles - sell well

Pocket computers without telephony - sell badly

allnameswereout

04-27-2009, 05:57 PM

Hmm, how many netbooks have a 3G modem soldered on-board? I think if they don't have 3G USB stick but appear on-board they are actually having a MiniPCI Express. Laptops or netbooks don't have WiFi soldered on-board either; its a MiniPCI Express card in almost all cases. You see soldered on-board rather on smaller embedded devices. Allowing the user to disconnect and connect a device takes significant amount of space over having it on-board without easy access for the end-user. Allowing the end-user this ability on a laptop is no problem. On a netbook this a bit more of a problem. On a smartphone this is a problem, and a smartphone falls in approx the same boat as a tablet in terms of size and portability, so you cannot expect every little part to be modular. You're just going to assume the end-user wants/needs certain hardware features. It isn't always possible to put off such on-board hardware. At least in the case of IGPs this is not the case, except when an other GPU is present. (Stock) BIOSes simply do not allow you to put the IGP off. Which costs a few W every hour. It'd surprise me if ARM boards would not allow you to put off on-board chips providing WLAN (802.11g) or WWAN (HSDPA) or at the very least allow you to enter PSM. So if you believe it costs extra money; yes, as does all the other hardware on your <fill in a device> which you might not use much or not at all. That it costs space; yes, ofcourse. Power, I'd say, if you won't use it, it won't use (much) power. From what I remember older Linux kernels had higher ticks and worse power saving modes, even on USB too, therefore less efficient.

GeneralAntilles

04-27-2009, 06:07 PM

Power, I'd say, if you won't use it, it won't use (much) power.

In the case of Bluetooth, WWAN, and WLAN, at least, not in use is off. Idle power usage for the whole device is measured in mW. For OMAP3, it may very well be in single-digit mW—I'd love to hear more on this subject from Igor.

mullf

04-27-2009, 07:06 PM

OK, I see all the Thanks! at the bottom of your post, but I don't "get" it.

My interpretation of what he meant is that the Nokia 770 Internet Tablet was a unique device, that could have been the first of a new class of devices. But instead, from all appearances, it looks like Nokia is going to turn the tablets into just another iPhone clone.

daperl

04-27-2009, 07:06 PM

@allnameswereout

I think there are too many exceptions to some of your conclusions. For every modular piece in a cell phone I can give you an example of something soldered on to a desktop motherboard. The reasons are usually case-by-case so they appear random, and that can sometimes make generalizing difficult.

Here's an exposed picture of the smallest stand-alone device that I own. Notice the modular microSD card and the modular battery. The iPhone doesn't have this. But with the buzz that's going around about Apple, AT&T and Verizon, I wouldn't be surprised if modular cell phone transceivers are less than a year away. The concept of modularity is dynamic. It expands and contracts based on different factors. Those are left for the reader. Making modular cellular RX-51's I leave for Nokia.

3400

qole

04-27-2009, 07:48 PM

I want one of those BrentDC-style avatars, too!

daperl

04-27-2009, 08:27 PM

I want one of those BrentDC-style avatars, too!

Yeah, I was already bored with that. How do like my new one?

EDIT:

So as not to forget, here was my ever-so-brief, but memorable, previous avatar:

3401
R.I.P. 1240878660 - 1240880460

daperl

04-28-2009, 12:16 AM

Boys and girls, I'm not sure, but something might be happening. Look at this url:

http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/

The time stamps of these directories are less than 5 hours old.

EDIT:

Yep, libhildon looks to have gone from 2.1.42 to 2.1.62. Crazy.

qole

04-28-2009, 02:01 AM

Very observant, daperl.

To take a page from the Classic Texrat lexicon: "Tee hee!"

Bundyo

04-28-2009, 02:05 AM

Is it Tuesday already? :)

daperl

04-28-2009, 03:06 AM

Very observant, daperl.

To take a page from the Classic Texrat lexicon: "Tee hee!"

To be fair, 2 people had a 2 sentence conversation about it on #maemo. But it ended there. I, on the other hand, have gone to DEFCON 4.

YoDude

04-28-2009, 08:14 AM

To be fair, 2 people had a 2 sentence conversation about it on #maemo. But it ended there. I, on the other hand, have gone to DEFCON 4.

When do they close the mountain? Is it DEFCON 3 or 2?.. :)

http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/tutorial/html/

***

As far as bundled apps go, I agree with GA regarding Nokia. I still have ill feelings about Nokia over the whole $349 Navicore debacle just because it appeared to be a blessed app.

Nothing is stopping maemo.org from blessing apps by having a simple, single page, tablet friendly site with maemo.org "must haves" listed and linked.

(BTW GA I have always been amused by your insistence on correct syntax in forum posts while things like 4 different text configurations of the category for "Utility" existed in the NIT's Application manager.

These categories and maemo.org have gotten much better lately, but still... :D )

noventa98

04-28-2009, 08:33 AM

Here are my two cents.

I think it would be good to let users know what the "tablet" or whatever name can do for them. Like counting seconds to boil your eggs, play chess with your daughter on a plane; and when she is tired of that show her a nice little movie, take out your device to show the photos of your daughters when you visit friends or family, listen to some music on the train, make a skype call when you're in a hotel in some remote country, email from that same hotel (you don't need to bring your laptop on a two day mission!), read this forum when you cannot get sleep...

All reasons for a regular customer to want to have your tablet with you all the time (to make this complete we would need easily installable productivity software...).

The N810 failed somehow to become a permanent companion for me (bad GPS, some missing productivity software, among other things). Yes, I know it was only intended to be a pocketable internet [sic] device, but it can be more. And those who have time and needed skills already are using the tablets as quasi-computers.

I believe that should be the message for the next device, but one has to deliver some of these functionalities of make sure that the buyer can easily access them. Having 10 or more software in the application manager who do the same thing, doesn't make it easy for the average customer to choose what works best for him.

I don't know whether it should also have phone capabilities (beyond VOIP), but those should not hurt (unless they increase costs too much or make them more cumbersome).

I guess by now everyone knows I have two daughters... :-)

Regards,
Antonio

debudebu

04-28-2009, 09:24 AM

when i got my n800 skype was included in the app menu, but it was not bundled. i had to click through a few messages to install it. would something like this work as a way to protect nokia from liability (?) while still giving the user a better 'out of the box' experience?

krisse

04-28-2009, 09:51 AM

Nothing is stopping maemo.org from blessing apps by having a simple, single page, tablet friendly site with maemo.org "must haves" listed and linked.

I don't think that would help make the tablets mainstream sales though.

Imagine a car that has a good engine and strong overall build, but substandard accessories and interior. To make up for this, the manufacturer includes a credit note with every car so you can install your own accessories and interiors from third parties for free.

Car enthusiasts (especially those who like to tinker under the bonnet) would probably love such an arrangement as it would cheaply and easily allow them to customise a car to their liking.

Everyone else would prefer the car to just come with good accessories and interiors pre-installed.

It's the same with mobile devices, most people (and most reviewers) judge a gadget by the features that come with it out of the box. If the built-in features and apps are poor, they won't want to buy the device.

That might be a stupid attitude to take, but it's what people do.

debudebu

04-28-2009, 10:07 AM

skype usability was advertised by nokia even though it wasn't necessarily included.

qgil

04-28-2009, 10:18 AM

To help you focus on productive speculation, I think the clearest gaps in terms of features pre-installed or fully advertized as downloads will be covered between Fremantle and Harmattan. With open or closed software, whatever makes more sense.

About the overhead brought by Nokia processes to external projects (community or commercial), one possibiility could be to apply part of the quality control we apply to ourselves. Public list of requirements, public quality criteria and public deadline to match those. Candidates checking all the boxes could become candidates for an officially supported and advertized addFon, or be even pre-installed.

mobiledivide

04-28-2009, 10:34 AM

I think the stock applications in Maemo 5 will probably provide a better experience than the out of box experience on the tablets.

Fennec seems like its the browser of choice, which we have tried and most people seem to like, especially since it will be on stronger hardware.

There is a going to be a calendar with to-do application built in with iCal syncing capabilities so that can sync with Google out of the box.

The IM will support all major VOIP and IM networks SIP, MSN, Yahoo, Gtalk etc hopefully this includes video conferencing out of the box.

Modest as an email client is improved and made finger friendly.

The media player will be able to handle a decent amount of video content without transcoding. It may even be a little flashier with Cover Arts etc as alluded to by Kontorri on his blog.

Application manager is undergoing an overhaul that might or might not make it a better place to look for applications.

@Krisse I think that the biggest issues most regular users had was unrealistic expectations of what the device could do. My girlfriend for example always thought that it was weird device because it wasn't a "phone", now with the RX-51's 3g connection I can describe the tablet as a "skype" phone that works everywhere and not just on my laptop and she will understand. The more powerful processor will make browsing FULL real websites a tangible and more enjoyable experience for noobs.

Then there are the rest of us on this board who will simply be happy because of better hardware on a platform we already understand and love.

allnameswereout

04-28-2009, 10:59 AM

The reasons are usually case-by-case so they appear random, and that can sometimes make generalizing difficult.Yes, further analysis is necessary.

Here's an exposed picture of the smallest stand-alone device that I own. Notice the modular microSD card and the modular battery.Ehm, duh, maybe you noticed connectors like USB are getting smaller, that SD won from CF partly due to form factor, and that SD is getting smaller as well, nevermind that batteries were much bigger (and had less capacity) years ago. So this an invalid compare. My (small) Nokia phone has what you state as well (microSD as well), and so do the tablets.

We're talking about modular receivers & transmitters here (WiFi, HSPA, BlueTooth, ...). They provide different features, and the hypothetic reasons for providing such modular or not are different.

The iPhone doesn't have this.Yes, and Apple makes it difficult to mod your hardware with tons of screws. They also managed to put battery on-board on their latest laptops. But we are not talking about Apple or batteries here.

The concept of modularity is dynamic. It expands and contracts based on different factors. Those are left for the reader. Making modular cellular RX-51's I leave for Nokia.You're only see the positive sides of it; there are negative sides of it as well. Like I said, it costs space (internally, and the slot must be reached from external as well) while it is probably less efficient power wise.

Case in point. My Zaurus had a CF and a SD slot. My tablet didn't have a CF slot. I never missed the CF slot on my tablet because on the Zaurus it was used for WiFi card anyway which the tablet has on-board. Later versions of Zaurus had on-board WiFi, or 2 CF slots. Meanwhile, I don't see where this CF slot on the tablet would have fitted. I think that is also why you don't see 2 SD slots on the N810: lack of space. It really is very important on small devices.

And how would you toss in this modular receiver/transmitter of yours? What standard would you use? Not SDIO right. You already have USB. So, what would it be? ExpressCard?

If I have the choice

A) pick 2 of the following: on-board BlueTooth/FM, GPS, WiFi, or 3G
B) pick 1 of the following: CF, SD, PCMCIA or ExpressCard.

I'd pick A. (Broadcom chips have BlueTooth + FM; these are in Nokia N800 and some iPod/iPhone.)

If you pick B then you'd either use full SD with SDIO or the bigger stuff like CF, PCMCIA, and ExpressCard. Excluding SDIO, do you have any idea how much space this would waste on the device? That, space wise, one could probably fit more than 2 of group A there?

BTW, I wonder, where would you stick this modular WiFi antenna of yours? On the side??

daperl

04-28-2009, 12:58 PM

Benson

04-28-2009, 01:16 PM

You're only see the positive sides of it; there are negative sides of it as well. Like I said, it costs space (internally, and the slot must be reached from external as well) while it is probably less efficient power wise.External access is not needed -- the big benefit from Nokia's side is not so much that they can sell it to the twenty diehard geeks who want to have five different cards and swap them in and out, but that the same product can be adapted to different markets (i.e. different WWAN standards), or even new networks (maybe LTE?) by only changing the comm card, and for that purpose it can be under the battery cover or even fully internal. And assuming the new hardware is as easy to disassemble as the N8x0 have been, even a fully internal slot (miniPCIe or similar) would not lose much of the appeal to the score of card-swapping geeks, either.

I'd personally prefer an expresscard slot (because I don't mind making the device thicker), but the sanest option for Nokia would probably be miniPCIe, in either the full- or half-length form-factor. Either of these carries power, PCIe, and USB signals, and USB-only versions would be fine, too. (Most WWAN cards for them use only the USB for data anyway, although they have to use 1.5V and 3.3V supply instead of the 5V they could get from a USB port.) This costs some space, to be sure, but not requiring edge space improves design freedom substantially, so the space can be taken where it will have the least impact.

sachin007

04-28-2009, 01:22 PM

Mobile computing is in Bizarro World. Here's an Engadget article actually touting Android 1.5 Cupcake's (http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/28/video-android-1-5-cupcake-on-screen-keyboard-and-video-captur/) onscreen keyboard.

Cupcake has a stylus-size keyboard for 480x320 capacitive screens, and Maemo 5 will have a thumb keyboard for 800x480 resistive screens.

Stranger than fiction.

EDIT:

By I am excited about the Beta SDK!

Yeah i agree that the stylus keyboard is not the best form of data entry. But what it does give is the thing called CHOICE TO THE END USER. I hope nokia just stays nokia and let us choose what we want instead of going apple's way saying that the osk is bad and so you have to use the thumb or full screen keyboard

daperl

04-28-2009, 01:51 PM

So this an invalid compare.

I disagree, and I'll say why (actually, you'll say why) further down.

We're talking about modular receivers & transmitters here (WiFi, HSPA, BlueTooth, ...). They provide different features, and the hypothetic reasons for providing such modular or not are different."Different features" wasn't my point. "Modularity" is my point. My CPU is modular on my desktop motherboard, but I'm okay with it being soldered-on in my mobile device. Again, it's case-by-case.

There are 3 players in the mobile arena (carrier, manufacturer and user), and only the carriers benefit from the cellular tansceiver not being modular. The user gets locked-in or is unaffected. But the manufacturer is asked to take it on the chin: They have to maintain 2 or more boards, to say nothing about striking deals with carriers, or to be locked-out altogether.

My opinion is, governing bodies and class action lawsuits need to step in and beat down the carriers. I'm pessimistic, but I'm less so with Obama. For now, I want to see what Apple will do. But they might lose their leverage if some of these newer smart phones are as good as they seem.

Yes, and Apple makes it difficult to mod your hardware with tons of screws. They also managed to put battery on-board on their latest laptops. But we are not talking about Apple or batteries here.I mentioned Apple as a contrast: my crappy old Razr with modular battery and microSD vs. the sh*t-don't-stink throwaway iPhone.

You're only see the positive sides of it; there are negative sides of it as well. Like I said, it costs space (internally, and the slot must be reached from external as well) while it is probably less efficient power wise.
...
And how would you toss in this modular receiver/transmitter of yours? What standard would you use? Not SDIO right. You already have USB. So, what would it be? ExpressCard?Of course I'm positive; I'm speculating about something I want.

I'm not a hardware person. But if there's a power and/or speed issue with SDIO I would say that someone needs to go back to the drawing board, because that's what I propose off of your suggestion:

microSDIO

This is a very good form factor, and to respond to some of your edits, it would be easy to fit somewhere. Off the top of my head, maybe we'll see the return of PCMCIA-like stacking. Except for the asymmetrical contact issues, maybe this could get some play.

BTW, I wonder, where would you stick this modular WiFi antenna of yours? On the side??I'd leave the end where it is, but I'd solder the connection somewhere near the microSDIO jack. :)

GeneralAntilles

04-28-2009, 02:08 PM

Nothing is stopping maemo.org from blessing apps by having a simple, single page, tablet friendly site with maemo.org "must haves" listed and linked.

http://maemo.org/downloads/downloads/OS2008/25/

(BTW GA I have always been amused by your insistence on correct syntax in forum posts while things like 4 different text configurations of the category for "Utility" existed in the NIT's Application manager.

I don't have a lot of control over what Nokia does with their software, nor what independent developers and package maintainers do with theirs, but you certainly can't reasonably accuse me of not trying.

We proposed improved list of categories (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories) which has been accepted, but missed the cutoff for making it into Diablo. I've spend hours and hours emailing maintainers to prod them in the right direction with their packaging, and plan on spending hours more once the new categories are shipped (either as a Nokia update or a community one).

These categories and maemo.org have gotten much better lately, but still... :D )

Still what? We did what we could, now we're waiting on Nokia.

daperl

04-28-2009, 02:09 PM

Yeah i agree that the stylus keyboard is not the best form of data entry. But what it does give is the thing called CHOICE TO THE END USER. I hope nokia just stays nokia and let us choose what we want instead of going apple's way saying that the osk is bad and so you have to use the thumb or full screen keyboard

Yes, thanks for emphasizing that, it's about choice. As you know, the Maemo 5 SDK Beta just came out; my install just finished. And as I've hinted at in another thread, I will have some form of stylus keyboard. I've already done a Python graphics port of the HIM example. But if The General is correct, a simple approach would be to get the Maemo 4 example to compile in the Maemo 5 SDK. I might try that today. But my long term needs have not been met by the existing stylus keyboard, and since Nokia has left me to my own, my needs get highest priority.

All that said, I really hope the RX-51 comes with stylus, stylus holder, and built-in stand. I will beg if need be.

GeneralAntilles

04-28-2009, 02:13 PM

A) pick 2 of the following: on-board BlueTooth/FM, GPS, WiFi, or 3G

I'd pick A. (Broadcom chips have BlueTooth + FM; these are in Nokia N800 and some iPod/iPhone.)

How about all of the above? Since that seems to be what we're got. :D

If you pick B then you'd either use full SD with SDIO or the bigger stuff like CF, PCMCIA, and ExpressCard. Excluding SDIO, do you have any idea how much space this would waste on the device? That, space wise, one could probably fit more than 2 of group A there?

Realistically, ExpressCard isn't really an option since you'd also have to add a controller for it.

daperl

04-28-2009, 02:22 PM

When do they close the mountain? Is it DEFCON 3 or 2?.. :)

It had to be 1 or 2. Now that was a door. I wonder what its effective distance is from the average, every day ground zero.

daperl

04-28-2009, 02:30 PM

I want one of those BrentDC-style avatars, too!

3403

Pretty good for a show-off. Man, it sucks to suck at The Gimp. (That doesn't sound right.) I got to get me some lessons. Maemo 5 is comin' and my stuff is lookin' awful long in the tooth.

GeraldKo

04-28-2009, 02:36 PM

And as I've hinted at in another thread, I will have some form of stylus keyboard. But my long term needs have not be met by the existing stylus keyboard, and since Nokia has left me to my own, my needs get highest priority.

GREAT to here you're working on a stylus keyboard! Thanks!

So, your needs in this regard are what? How's it going to be different?

If you prefer this discussed in the "other thread," please leave a link here and answer there.

allnameswereout

04-28-2009, 04:24 PM

Not always a technically superior product becomes defacto standard. Examples include SCSI versus PATA, SD versus CF, FW versus USB, and so on. MiniPCI Express is currently more expensive than MiniPCI, so we'll be seeing MiniPCI still in use for now.

MicroSDIO, really? MicroSD already gives bad performance (worse than SD), and less size than SD. We're still in conversion from SD and MiniSD to MicroSD. Given the lack of hardware availability for this 'MicroSDIO' its currently not viable so I'll ignore it and consider either MicroSD, MiniSD, SD, or SDIO for storage.

SDIO; size wise acceptable; questionable performance and questionable hardware availability.
CF; questionable hardware availability.
PCMCIA; legacy, internal form factor not compatible (too big).
USB; good hardware availability but external form factor way too big to remain portable device. (I usually chuckle when I see a hardware hack involving USB... all these wires and requires AC, pfff.)
ExpressCard; internal form factor also too big, but at least smaller; would require additional controller.
MiniPCI Express; while not as popular as say USB at least hardware availability for GSM-HSPA, WLAN, WiMAX. But since this is a PCI Express 1x I'm not sure if this could be easily added, I think it'd require an additional controller as well. It'd also require the user to open the device. It'd add nothing to the external form factor.

All of these also add physical weight and space to the device externally (except MiniPCI Express). So for example, it makes the device heavier on one side. It changes the format of the device. This is problematic for some holsters and such.

Now lets say MiniPCI Express is the choice (IMO all other are not viable). The on-board stuff must keep functioning so you'd need these not interfering with the MiniPCI Express (sidenote: I am looking forward to tablet with good GPS). Check out how big these MiniPCI Express cards are and compare this to how much space other receivers/transmitters could be put there. I'd say at least 2 of group A I mentioned. So you would keep WiFi internal, but add 1 MiniPCI Express for WWAN. Would this fit in the device? Are there other portable devices with this form factor which have MiniPCI Express slot? BTW, I am imagining a device with HW keyboard a-la N810; yielding less space available than using as reference N800.

There are 3 players in the mobile arena (carrier, manufacturer and user), and only the carriers benefit from the cellular tansceiver not being modular.Nokia likes to sell hardware too.

The user gets locked-in or is unaffected. But the manufacturer is asked to take it on the chin: They have to maintain 2 or more boards, to say nothing about striking deals with carriers, or to be locked-out altogether.In this case not because users do not have to use WWAN (HSPA). Users can use other forms of communication such as WLAN and BlueTooth. For 24/7 connectivity using WWAN is the most viable option. BlueTooth + other device or WiFi hotspots or WiMAX is in theory nice, but in practice WWAN is the easiest option. The other options (excluding WiMAX) are available out of box. Minus WiMAX all these are currently 1) standards of wireless communication 2) defacto standards as well 3) are all on-board. If you wish to compare that to iPhone and iPod: these have crippled or no BlueTooth which is a defacto standard wireless communication form. OTOH, Apple does opt for the not yet available standard 802.11n. Weird. Anyway, having WWAN on-board on your tablet or not does not make your device more or less locked in as of now.

On the other hand all N800, N810, iPhone 3G, iPod touch 2nd gen devices each have the very same WiFi chip. So as manufacturer you don't have 10 different WiFi chipsets to support a basic feature on the device (ie. providing WAN) since every user has the very same hardware. This allows for tighter integration between hard- and software, and easier customer support. If a user has a problem with their Nokia phone, Nokia knows what types of hardware are in it (except for example *SD card, and well, some folks use questionable 3rd party batteries). To draw a software analogy: customers who modify their Maemo OS and then phone customer support would be a hassle for Nokia.

You think way too much from a software perspective! Being able to swap your HSPA chip to LTE would (in future) indeed seem useful, but right now it is not useful, and Nokia wants to sell hardware. You also do not know what the standards are in 2-3 years. At the very least in 2-3 years we will have USB 3.0, BlueTooth 3.0, 802.11n, LTE. We'll also have next generation ARM devices, probably by default multi core. Touchscreens become better, or even different technology as well. You name it. All hardware features. Instead of building a new device you expect Nokia to support their old devices (giving them no direct profit whatsoever) and in this imaginary world of yours we'd have USB 2.0, BlueTooth 2.1, 802.11g, HSPA on modular SDIO chips??? No way! Nokia welcomes success stories and Maemo development very much but they want to produce and release tablets are once in a while with up to date hardware. It is impossible to an extremely modular device which can be kept up to date for years. Especially not in this market. Also, in 2-3 years your SD controller will be out of date. Just like RedHat and Microsoft do not support their products forever (and not for free either) I know that VAX hardware modules are still being designed, but you can be sure they come with a price tag only big business and government is OK to pay only for legacy reasons! We don't have these legacy reasons! So in 2-3 years the current tablets are toys, slow, ancient, old standards, out of date. Some will still be used for serious development but the eyes are mostly aimed towards the next-gen Nokia tablet. That is how hardware development cycles work. If you do not like this, you will have to 1) pay for what you want 2) start to design your own stuff a-la Pandora. Either way, you'd have to start with thinking more realistic.

For now, I want to see what Apple will do. But they might lose their leverage if some of these newer smart phones are as good as they seem.They're learning from jailbreak community to see what features users want, and they're opening up something such as BlueTooth. But, because Apple sells end products (combination of contract, software and hardware) Apple sticks with the same game they've done for a long time with all kind of products.

Of course I'm positive; I'm speculating about something I want....but not realistic. I speculated about convergence devices 10 years ago too. Brings you nothing when you ignore the current state of reality.

daperl

04-28-2009, 05:16 PM

MicroSDIO, really? MicroSD already gives bad performance (worse than SD), and less size than SD. We're still in conversion from SD and MiniSD to MicroSD. Given the lack of hardware availability for this 'MicroSDIO' its currently not viable so I'll ignore it and consider either MicroSD, MiniSD, SD, or SDIO for storage.

You're too prolific for me. But for now, I'll quickly respond to the microSD issue. Again, I'm not a hardware person, but aren't you combining two issues here? So, there's the bus, and then there's the media that uses the bus. My understanding is that what makes SD slow isn't the bus, its the flash memory technology. As an example, I quickly went to newegg and found this microSD card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134855). It quotes a 13MB/sec read rate. So that tells me the microSD bus can handle at least 130Mb/sec. Thus, the bottle neck would be right where it should be: on the transceiver. Works for me.

qole

04-28-2009, 05:26 PM

3403

Pretty good for a show-off. Man, it sucks to suck at The Gimp. (That doesn't sound right.) I got to get me some lessons. Maemo 5 is comin' and my stuff is lookin' awful long in the tooth.

Tim Samoff made it for me. According to Tim, the avatar's name is qole 2.0, but it seems to me it should be qole 2.0 beta. :)

semiquaver

04-28-2009, 05:42 PM

I use the +/- keys for that, but I guess that depends on the player, too.
Could you explain this? I'd love to be able to skip tracks with the +/- keys but none of the players appear to be able to do this.

daperl

04-28-2009, 05:54 PM

Tim Samoff made it for me. According to Tim, the avatar's name is qole 2.0, but it seems to me it should be qole 2.0 beta. :)

Oh man, I always thought you were a Gimp ninja. It's much cooler than your alpha.

I want to learn some of that really trendy glassy stuff. I tried to follow a recipe once, but the follow-along images were missing. Here's some icons I've been using lately:

34043405

And here's (http://www.iconarchive.com/category/nature/solar-system-icons-by-dan-wiersma.html) where you can find the entire glassy solar system.

qole

04-28-2009, 06:02 PM

http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3404&d=1240955174

That is too bad; the glassy shine is over top of the ring.

Lately, I've been grabbing icons from the free Tango set (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tango_icons), they're SVG so you can break them apart and use elements from several icons.

EDIT: I can't believe you posted a picture of... Uranus... online.

krisse

04-28-2009, 06:37 PM

skype usability was advertised by nokia even though it wasn't necessarily included.

Fair point, but it was pretty close to being included, you just had to click on the pre-installed Skype link to start the installation (and the same link activated the app after installation).

Maybe you'd be in favour of pre-installed links to apps rather than the apps themselves?

GeneralAntilles

04-28-2009, 07:10 PM

Maybe you'd be in favour of pre-installed links to apps rather than the apps themselves?

I don't think it'd be a much different definition in Nokia's eyes. Either way, we need to get people to the Application Manager and Extras and that's what I think we should be focusing on.

daperl

04-28-2009, 07:14 PM

That is too bad; the glassy shine is over top of the ring.

Lately, I've been grabbing icons from the free Tango set (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tango_icons), they're SVG so you can break them apart and use elements from several icons.

EDIT: I can't believe you posted a picture of... Uranus... online.

Who said it was mine?

mullf

04-28-2009, 07:59 PM

BTW GA I have always been amused by your insistence on correct syntax in forum posts ...

http://xkcd.com/326/

daperl

04-28-2009, 08:18 PM

GREAT to here you're working on a stylus keyboard! Thanks!

So, your needs in this regard are what? How's it going to be different?

If you prefer this discussed in the "other thread," please leave a link here and answer there.

The cool thing is, it looks like the Mer project has already taken care of the stylus keyboard. I've seen the screen shots before, but I didn't know it was working as well as qole explains here (http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?p=282873). So, there's probably nothing for me to do. A win-win and plenty of beer for the Mer people.

As far as my own needs, I think that the stylus keyboard was implemented as an annoying, general solution to a problem. Using the xterm as an example, I'm tired of it popping up and down based on input context. I'm also tired of how much and where it takes up real estate; add in the toolbar, and it fills up almost half the window. This burns me out and it has a negative effect on my productivity. So, I'm fixing this as a separate issue to having a basic stylus keyboard. Time to party.

pycage

04-29-2009, 02:47 AM

daperl

04-29-2009, 03:38 AM

It's just a speculation (so this might be the right thread), but Fremantle's X server has compositing. Would you need a stylus keyboard if the fullscreen keyboard was translucent? :)
Technically, it will be possible, so I'm pretty sure Fremantle will have it that way.

I tried some translucent stuff. I found that small intersections were okay, but large overlays were too distracting.

allnameswereout

04-29-2009, 08:52 AM

Again, I'm not a hardware person, but aren't you combining two issues here?Yes, they overlapt/interact. You don't have to be a hardware expert either. Just look into the subjects and accept we're here to learn from each other :)

For example, here you can see the SD card internally
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sd_insides.png
You can see the NAND is only 50% of the total format. The rest is for the SD controller and the connector. The SD controller also has to connect and talk with the tablet. So you can imagine that instead of SD we could use on-board NAND saving more than 100% of the NAND size. This would allow us, for example, to provide 2 on-board NAND, or double storage.

Nokia clearly did not opt for on-board NAND (due to space constraints) in the case of the N800 while they (partly) opted for this on the N810. This is the difference between 2x SD versus 1x 2 GB on-board with 1x miniSD. Such tough design decisions often occur. For example, imagine the N810 hardware designers having to cope with the less space available because of the HW keyboard.

Back to SDIO it exists because there is space available on the SD card because NAND got smaller (I'm not sure how much bandwidth is available for the non-Flash part of the device but IIRC this is where the issue lies). Even then it still would stick out. Where exactly and how how you connect the WiFi chip on the MicroSD card?

So, there's the bus, and then there's the media that uses the bus. My understanding is that what makes SD slow isn't the bus, its the flash memory technology. As an example, I quickly went to newegg and found this microSD card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134855). It quotes a 13MB/sec read rate. So that tells me the microSD bus can handle at least 130Mb/sec. Thus, the bottle neck would be right where it should be: on the transceiver. Works for me.Heh that is probably a Class 2. The bottleneck is the bus because CF can manage far better I/O than SD. Keep in mind that what you mention is the read speed. What matters is what Class the SD card has e.g. Class 2 is guaranteed 2 MB/sec read/write. And even then, the performance is a joke compared to CompactFlash and stuff like PCI Express x1.

I don't know any Nokia device which has MiniPCI Express and allows the user to replace this. In all their embedded products such is not possible. The modular design is basically 1) replacable battery 2) SD/MiniSD/MicroSD 3) MicroUSB(A/B)/MiniUSD(A/B) 4) 2.5mm or 3.5mm sound I/O 5) proprietary input for juice. So this type of add-on would be a new direction for Nokia. You also need to think of how the user would conveniently access it. Remember, most customers are dumb and easily damage their hardware, and don't possess (small) Torx screwdrivers.

Over the years I more started to believe in modularity between devices. For example you have one device which is (very) good at specific tasks and you are able to combine the strong features of it together with other devices. Think of capabilities. In that sense you'd have for example a digital camera, a packet radio modem, a (foldable) LCD screen which talk to each other over BlueTooth 3.0. Being able to use the LCD screen on the digital camera (well OK for DSLR not useful but still) while also being able to use the LCD screen for MP3 player and using a web browser would be great but I do not believe anymore that it is possible to have 1 device which is good at everything. Sometimes you have to specialize. The fact that iPhone/iPod do not support something as common as BlueTooth absolutely sucks, and I'm glad that will change. Now that the next gen tablet will have its own HSPA you could have your Nokia phone not enable this or have your personal HSPA device with you combined with your work phone which has voice (and maybe its own WWAN). You wouldn't have to use it like you wouldn't have to use the GPS or the WLAN or the USB which is all included. But if instead of the HSPA, you'd want something to provide what exactly? WiMAX?