Eurovision! [Archive] - maemo.org

zehjotkah

05-14-2009, 06:06 PM

ioan

05-14-2009, 06:06 PM

Oooooh, wait a minute here.

(Oh, btw: it's a pity Hungary is out now. I liked that song. But we still have Denmark, Sweden, Norway, France, Estonia, Germany, Bonsia-Herzegovina, Croatia... they're not bad this year.)

what about Romania? :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwyuOU-OdQw

qgil

05-14-2009, 06:10 PM

and i think we all want to hear good music, and not such wannabe-semi-modern-style-crap.

Tsk Tsk

Think again.

Jaffa

05-14-2009, 06:14 PM

3. the singers/groups performing at the ESC were not elected before by the poeple living at that respective country(at least here in germany)

Oh, in the UK, the BBC get Saturday night "reality" TV series out of the selection of the singer, the song or whatever - and have done for a few years.

The public with nothing better to do whilst waiting for Doctor Who to be on then phone in and select something awful (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6FmisoHSc0).

benny1967

05-15-2009, 02:13 AM

what about Romania? :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwyuOU-OdQw

probably this is the kind of song ESC-haters associate with the contest. i don't like it a lot.

benny1967

05-15-2009, 02:29 AM

i don't like the ESC (i live in germany btw.) for three reasons:

1. it's like low-level war. if the EU wants to be a real union, why then competition? why one country have to show that it is better than the others (and in fact only the singers are better and not the countries...)??

ESC has nothing to do with the european union. (Russia? Israel? Switzerland? Look at the map!)
And it isn't about peace and love, it's about entertainment and competition. Just like sports events.

2. the singers are not really very talented (made me think of the last year: No Angels, one of the first CASTING-GROUPS.. omg)

Some of them aren't.... but the semis do a lot to prevent those from being in the final. The exception are, of course, the "Big 4" (who can send any crap they want) and acts that don't mainly rely on musical talents. (Which isn't a bad thing at all - it's a show, it's TV entertainment. They don't search for the most gifted singers there.)

3. the singers/groups performing at the ESC were not elected before by the poeple living at that respective country(at least here in germany), so thats not a mirror of what taste of music the people in that country have. therefore a TVChannel started a own contest, named BundesVisionSongContest. search for it in youtube and you will find music with higher quality. and i think we all want to hear good music, and not such wannabe-semi-modern-style-crap. ;-)

Depends on the country. Germany always had pre-selections with televoting in the recent past. 2009 is the first year they chose to try a different selection process. Sweden, AFAIK, has several shows in a row to select their candidate. Anyway, it doesn't matter. ESC is not supposed to be a "mirror of what taste of music the people in that country have". That's what sales charts are for.

qgil

05-15-2009, 02:32 AM

Indeed, it's totally unjustified to link ESC with this kind of cheap show...

Jokes apart though, I'm sure benny or someone can name 5 world hits that started as an Eurovision song, winning or not.

totololo

05-15-2009, 02:49 AM

Beuaaaaahhhhhh, Eurovision ?
Oh my god !!! by chance i don't have TV anymore ...
Eurovision is like torture ...
Eurovision is a pure shame. Even when i was 10, i found myself embarrassed when my familly was waching it !
Eurovision and miss France contest should be canceled forver.

pycage

05-15-2009, 02:56 AM

ESC has a tradition in Europe. It's always fun to watch and it's interesting to see what kind of music is popular in the other European countries. Unfortunately, lately there's not much of a difference between the countries. Kudos to the Finnish people for having brought a fresh wind to the ESC with heavy metal. :D

fms

05-15-2009, 03:23 AM

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8195/eurovisionvotingzi5.jpg

benny1967

05-15-2009, 04:34 AM

Jokes apart though, I'm sure benny or someone can name 5 world hits that started as an Eurovision song, winning or not.

This is one of the two myths about ESC - that it is supposed to be the stage where future world hits are born. (The other myth being that winning the contest should say something about the quality of the song or the talent of the singer.)

What adds to this misconception is that it used to be true in the 1960s; but this was more because of the way media, especially televison and radio, were organised in Europe back then, not because ESC was different. Winning in those days, even being 2nd or 3rd, was a guarantee for a release across Europe and a good commercial success. The radio/TV stations who organised ESC were mostly monopolists in their countries or had only little competition... how could you not succeed with such a backing?

So while a lot of songs indeed were successful (see below), that doesn't say anything about the event as such. Quite on the contrary: Songs that are made for chart success usually don't work on the Eurovision stage and the other way round. It's a strange and unlikely coincidence if an act achieves both.

What ESC has to deliver is an entertaining evening. (And one has to say that at least 50% of the entertainment don't come from the acts themselves but from the voting afterwards.)

What it also delivers is the possibility to get to know artists from across Europe that you usually would never hear because their careers end at the borders of their countries - or at least don't grow much outside their respective regions. I really thank the contest for introducing me to Mor ve Ötesi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwKYxeI8Ebc), Dima Bilan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TMpWKNKX_w), Roger Cicero (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1pWn3qUgVg), Les Fatals Picards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyRcKHrNq_c), Sopho (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZuIh4mb34U), Texas Lightning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW2WqWfOqeM) and, above all, Željko Joksimović (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6U1TyUkOPc) and Athena (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32goyWjRLMQ).

Oh, and yes, some songs really escaped the Eurovision screen and sold as real records - or, in recent years, just switched channels over to MTV. I remember Poupée de cire poupée de son (1965), Puppet on a string (1967), Congratulations (1968), All kinds of everything (1970), Beg, steal or borrow (1972), Waterloo (1974), Save your kisses for me (1976), Halleluja (1979), What's another year? (1980), Making your mind up (1981), Ein bisschen Frieden (1982), Insieme: 1992 (1990), Love shine a light (1997), Fly on the wings of love (2000), Everyway that I can (2003), My Number One (2005), Hard Rock Hallelujah (2006),...

nikolajhendel

05-15-2009, 05:13 AM

You are all aware that one of the biggest groups "ever", started out by winning the ESC.....

ABBA - with Waterloo

attila77

05-15-2009, 06:17 AM

Ahh, Eurosong. The stuff that is so bad it starts to be good :)

But seriously, you're the (at least) two distinct phases of the ESC - the 'old', traditional ESC, where a mix of public figures and musicians used to give scores, and the current one, which is the 'panem et circem' approach. You can't be too much of anything in today's ESC (kooky, sexy, you name it). I also came to the conclusion that 90% of contestants conformed to the 'idiot or babe' matrix, with rare exceptions, mostly from countries that did not elect by popular vote. Also, ESC proves an interesting insight into European migratory patters.

About the competition. Competition can be friendly, if done right. Yes, only one can win the show, but ESC has helped a LOT of (actual) performers to gain attention, and it IS about fun, laughter with (something occasionally resembling) music. The voting model IS flawed, but that's not the point - I like watching it with friends, it's just hilarious, the ONE continent-wide manifestation where EVERY country can afford to show something silly.

Never EVER try to take it as serious artistic/performer contest or your faith in European culture and tradition will be shattered. I remember when two years ago I had a friend here from the US at the time of ESC. What can I say, she was beyond shocked :)

EDIT: Ah, yes, and if you are into that sort of humour, go for the BBC version with Terry Wogan (is he still doing it BTW ?). The prepared speech thingy is dead boring (yes, that guy in your local language is most likely reading a prepared written translation of the presenter's speech, not adding anything of entertainment value).

benny1967

05-15-2009, 06:34 AM

But seriously, you're the (at least) two distinct phases of the ESC - the 'old', traditional ESC, where a mix of public figures and musicians used to give scores, and the current one, which is the 'panem et circem' approach.

Actually, it's more complicated than that. ;)

The old, old approach with juries was phase one: juries in each country. Then they experimented with televoting and we had a phase 2 where some countries used juries, others used televoting. Phase 3 was televoting only (with backup juries). Then came phase 4 with semi-finals, which introduced a new aspect because a lot of crap-crap got filtered out... except the crap-crap-crap that was so good you had to see it a second time. Then (phase 5) they started to re-introduce juries for the semi-finals: Only 9 of 10 finalists in each semi are chosen by the audience, the 10th is a pure jury decision. This year we're starting with phase 6: In the final, 50% of the points will be determined by the audience via televoting and 50% will come from professional juries again.

So.... while with Nokia we're still waiting for step 5, Eurovision has reached step 6 now. ;)

benny1967

05-15-2009, 06:38 AM

EDIT: Ah, yes, and if you are into that sort of humour, go for the BBC version with Terry Wogan (is he still doing it BTW ?). The prepared speech thingy is dead boring (yes, that guy in your local language is most likely reading a prepared written translation of the presenter's speech, not adding anything of entertainment value).

I never liked the kind of aggressive and disrespectful "humour" Terry Wogan added to the show. It's very simple and low-level... Anyway: No, he's not doing it any more. See http://www.esctoday.com/news/read/12636

TA-t3

05-15-2009, 06:54 AM

There's a particular kind of music style called "ESC music". Very bad for your health. I watched the sum-up (the short clips before voting started) of yesterday's semi final, and only two of the songs were non-ESC. The rest of them were made over the ESC template, which equals horrible in my opinion. And as 10 songs passed it means there's not much to look forward to for the final.. (but I didn't watch the first semifinal, so who knows.. but I'm not optimistic.)

benny1967

05-15-2009, 07:07 AM

That's what I meant when saying it's very unlikely that a song is successful on the Eurovision stage and in sales charts.

You have to impress an audience with a three-minute-song that they hear once. And your competition are 23 songs that face the same challenge.

The only thing you can do is be memorable, one way or another.... The consequence is - well, unusual customes and stage performances, but also songs that are made for one time listening. A normal music production would take into account that people listen to it several times, and it should sound fresh and interesting even after 3 months. That's not what Eurovision songs try to achieve. They have to please once - and fail afterwards because they're not made for being heard a 2nd time.

So you get this typical Eurovision style. There not very much composers can do to achieve all this, and all songs try hard, so they all use the same patterns. ;)

(Of course, it's totally different with me: I listen to the songs weeks before the competition, so my favorites are usually not the ones that win. :D )

gazza_d

05-15-2009, 07:11 AM

Have to say that for me Terry Wogan's commentary was the highlight of the Eurovision. Grham Norton is now doing it, so it'll possibly be OK, but I'll probably give it a miss this year for that reason, although usually it ends up being the best thing on live TV on the night.

Best thing is not to take it too seriously!

benny1967

05-15-2009, 07:15 AM

This somehow reminds me of the "stylus vs. finger UI"-debate.... I'm alone against the rest of the world. :D

But I'm used to it. It was like that when I started working for my current company. Now people are informed about this years songs, have their favourites, discuss all the little scandals, watch the show, send me the votes from their ESC-parties, ....

I'll get you there. Just give me some time. In 2-3 years, the Eurovision fanfare will have replaced the Nokia tune on Maemo devices. ;)

attila77

05-15-2009, 07:16 AM

Actually, it's more complicated than that. ;)

Yes, that's what I was trying to imply with the 'at least' comment, listing the two extremes.

I never liked the kind of aggressive and disrespectful "humour" Terry Wogan added to the show. It's very simple and low-level... Anyway: No, he's not doing it any more.

... and that's why I put in the "*IF* you're in that kind of humour". ESC would be characterised a low-level attempt at comedy by many, anyway :) But, there is plenty to choose from, especially if one understands English or is bi/tri/quad/etclingual :)

attila77

05-15-2009, 07:33 AM

That's what I meant when saying it's very unlikely that a song is successful on the Eurovision stage and in sales charts.

True, but many DO break this template, especially in their local countries (at least that's how it worked in the past around here in mid-south-east Europe). Roughly one of two becomes a hit regardless how they do/rank in the final ESC chart, but there are those that actually do well on ESC at the same time (for example Marija Serifovic's (2007 ESC winner from Serbia) song was a HUGE hit in the whole region.

(Of course, it's totally different with me: I listen to the songs weeks before the competition, so my favorites are usually not the ones that win. :D )

Actually, I do that, too. ESC songs are nothing like my 'usual' music taste, so I guess once I year I can consume something like that without permanent consequences :D I usually do 1 or 2 passes of all, and then narrow down at the (not that numerous) favorites I actually find catching. But then again, that has nothing to do with the ESC as a show.

zehjotkah

05-15-2009, 07:34 AM

It's always fun to watch and it's interesting to see what kind of music is popular in the other European countries. Unfortunately, lately there's not much of a difference between the countries. Kudos to the Finnish people for having brought a fresh wind to the ESC with heavy metal. :D

and that is the problem or mistake i see...
the ESC does NOT show what music is popular in the countries. at least the music-entries coming from germany are not the popular music..

krisse

05-15-2009, 07:46 AM

Eurovision winners almost always have:

-strong catchy beats

-memorable costumes and/or performances

-lyrics partially or entirely in english

Because people are likely to only hear it once (or twice if it's a semi-finalist too) it's got to be something people remember straight away, and all of these things help.

Although Abba seem rather tame now, apparently their sound was something of a departure for Eurovision at the time, and I think they even made the conductor of the BBC orchestra wear a Napoleon hat as a reference to Waterloo. Abba had also changed the words of their song from Swedish to English for the contest. Everything was there to make Abba stand out from the crowd, and the song itself was pretty good too.

The costume aspect possibly explains why Finland won with the biggest score in the history of the programme after failing to get anywhere near the top previously. They departed from the usual pop-and-folk-song formula which dominates the ESC and replaced it with latex horror film outfits. Anyone who even half-watched the prorgamme was bound to remember Lordi when it came to voting, and you're more likely to vote for a band you remember. And Lordi was already an established band in several countries before the contest, so they had a proven track record of international appeal, plus they sang entirely in English.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41668000/jpg/_41668192_lordiget.jpg

Incidentally, there was one person in Finland who bet on Lordi winning the ESC before they had even won the Finnish heats. He put a bet of 1000 euros on them, at odds of (I think) 400 to 1. Lucky chap.

benny1967

05-15-2009, 07:57 AM

True, but many DO break this template, especially in their local countries (at least that's how it worked in the past around here in mid-south-east Europe). Roughly one of two becomes a hit regardless how they do/rank in the final ESC chart, but there are those that actually do well on ESC at the same time (for example Marija Serifovic's (2007 ESC winner from Serbia) song was a HUGE hit in the whole region.

Yes, it's probably easier to get something to work for a special market. Like when the singer is already popular there or it's just a type of music that works in this region.

Texas Lightning's "No No Never" (Germany) failed at the ESC but was a huge success in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. I remember hearing it all summer here in Vienna whereever I was... radio, bars, stores, TV, it was omnipresent.

Same happened with Roger Cicero as an artist. I don't know how well known he was in Germany before his (unsuccessful) attempt at the ESC, but his song was a hit here in Austria and now his career seems to continue on a solid basis.

Then, of course, there's things you just cannot explain, like Verka Serduchka from Ukraine doing fine and reaching solid top 10 positions in Finland (OK, strange people there ;) ), France and Sweden while failing everywhere else. Why did the French love "Lasha Tumbai" when the Germans didn't? There's a lot of examples

We also shouldn't underestimate the fact that while the ESC veterans from western Europe show the Wogan-attitude, the overwhelming majority of participating countries take the event very seriously and send acts that are very popular there. You'd expect them to sell well at least in their home countries because of their popularity and because there's a lot of patriotism involved ("our representative in...").

Actually, I do that, too. ESC songs are nothing like my 'usual' music taste, so I guess once I year I can consume something like that without permanent consequences :D I usually do 1 or 2 passes of all, and then narrow down at the (not that numerous) favorites I actually find catching. But then again, that has nothing to do with the ESC as a show.

Right. ESC is not made for people who listen to the songs in advance. (It used to be that way when television and radio stations would broadcast all songs before the show and have special shows to get all the participants known.)

But I admit its fun because every now and then, you find songs that grow on you when you hear them a second and a third time. It's usually only 1, 2 or three such songs among the 40+ that enter each year. You can tell they don't want to win, really, they just want the world to know their names. This year, it's France for sure. A nice little song that I almost killed with FF>> when I first heard it. Athena and Mor ve Ötesi from Turkey probably also didn't intend to take the trophy home, but I liked their songs. (I still have a part of "For Real" as a ringtone on my mobile ;) ...)

benny1967

05-15-2009, 08:12 AM

The costume aspect possibly explains why Finland won with the biggest score in the history of the programme after failing to get anywhere near the top previously. They departed from the usual pop-and-folk-song formula which dominates the ESC and replaced it with latex horror film outfits. Anyone who even half-watched the prorgamme was bound to remember Lordi when it came to voting, and you're more likely to vote for a band you remember. And Lordi was already an established band in several countries before the contest, so they had a proven track record of international appeal, plus they sang entirely in English.

Of course the costumes helped with the people who actually watched ESC, but from what I know, Lordi gained a lot of votes from people who didn't. I know that all of my friends and colleagues who are into heavy metal/hard rock had received mails, newsletters,.... long before the show asking them to vote for Finland, and that this was an international campaign at this time. They'd exchange text messages with voting instructions when the voting started, so whereever they were at the time of the show, they could call or send a message for Lordi.

The point was to somehow "take over" a show that was perceived as a kitschy, cheesy leftover from the 1950s when for the first time in history they had a chance to do so with "their" music. - It worked, didn't it? And although I'm a 70s disco pop person, I found I could like Lordi, too, after this evening. See the magic of Eurovison.... :D

fpp

05-15-2009, 08:13 AM

Some years ago I read a tongue-in-cheek article with a theory to explain why the artistic level in that contest has never been very high : small european countries use it to get media air time abroad, others participate because they have to be there, but no one is really very keen to win because the winner has to host the following year's event, so it actually costs money with little in return, so they don't send the best of the best... :-)

I don't know if there's still any truth in that - it doesn't seem to jibe with the French competitor this year, who is an actual bona fide star here, not a total unknown, and has been for many years. Perhaps her career is declining and she needs a media boost ?...

benny1967

05-15-2009, 08:21 AM

I don't know if there's still any truth in that - it doesn't seem to jibe with the French competitor this year, who is an actual bona fide star here, not a total unknown, and has been for many years. Perhaps her career is declining and she needs a media boost ?...

I think french television at some point decided that if they couldn't win anyway with all the neighbourhood- and diaspora-voting, they would go the other way and show the world (yes, it's broadcast worldwide) what they could offer in terms of quality and style. (Whatever "quality and style" is, I don't believe there's a criterion for this.) So they started to send really interesting acts that never ever had a chance to win (like this year), but just gather a lot of fans among people who'd never heard of them before but like tehir kind of music.

It worked with Les Fatals Picards, it worked with Sébastien Tellier, it will work again.

krisse

05-15-2009, 08:25 AM

Regarding songs which lose the contest but do well elsewhere, maybe the most famous Eurovision song ever is "Volare" which only came third in Eurovision but went on to be a hit all over the world.

Italy no longer takes part in the ESC...

Of course the costumes helped with the people who actually watched ESC, but from what I know, Lordi gained a lot of votes from people who didn't. I know that all of my friends and colleagues who are into heavy metal/hard rock had received mails, newsletters,.... long before the show asking them to vote for Finland, and that this was an international campaign at this time. They'd exchange text messages with voting instructions when the voting started, so whereever they were at the time of the show, they could call or send a message for Lordi.

The point was to somehow "take over" a show that was perceived as a kitschy, cheesy leftover from the 1950s when for the first time in history they had a chance to do so with "their" music. - It worked, didn't it? And although I'm a 70s disco pop person, I found I could like Lordi, too, after this evening. See the magic of Eurovison....

...but then that is still an example of an unusual act getting the most votes in the ESC.

All the other acts could have organised similar campaigns if they'd wanted to, but no one wanted to support the other acts because they didn't stand out enough.

Some years ago I read a tongue-in-cheek article with a theory to explain why the artistic level in that contest has never been very high : small european countries use it to get media air time abroad, others participate because they have to be there, but no one is really very keen to win because the winner has to host the following year's event, so it actually costs money with little in return, so they don't send the best of the best... :-)

I don't know if there's still any truth in that - it doesn't seem to jibe with the French competitor this year, who is an actual bona fide star here, not a total unknown, and has been for many years. Perhaps her career is declining and she needs a media boost ?...

The thing is, even when countries send a high-profile act it's often not very good.

The UK's entry this year is written by Andrew Lloyd Webber, but it's an awful awful "song" which doesn't really go anywhere. It's not really got any proper melody or beat, and it's impossible to remember afterwards. To make matters worse, the lyrics are by Diane "Titanic" Warren, so they're awful too.

Warren and Lloyd Webber are probably trying to write a "grower" track which people learn to love over time, but that approach is absolutely fatal in the ESC because most people don't listen to the tracks before the contest.

I'm predicting something close to zero for the UK this year... :-(

Jaffa

05-15-2009, 08:33 AM

I'm predicting something close to zero for the UK this year... :-(

I've not heard the Lloyd-Webber/Warren track yet, but my hopes aren't high.

Your prediction seems pretty likely when even relatively good (for UK Eurovision entries) like last year's result in the UK doing very poorly.

Last year, having been forced to watch it, I think I voted for France's entry (which I now hear on Renault adverts :-))

benny1967

05-15-2009, 08:45 AM

The Webber thing is really a bit boring.... I cannot imagine it doing well.

But you're right, the UK isn't very popular, no matter which song. Andy Abraham wasn't really my favorite last year (have I mentioned it was Mor ve Ötesi ;) ?), but there was worse and his last position certainly was not deserved.

Let's see how the 50% jury voting will change the predictable outcomes for certain countries.

krisse

05-15-2009, 08:48 AM

Your prediction seems pretty likely when even relatively good (for UK Eurovision entries) like last year's result in the UK doing very poorly.

Yeah, that was very unfair. It was a decent enough song, better than most of the ones near the top of the voting.

Maybe the UK needs a good song AND some kind of star power?

wazd

05-15-2009, 09:18 AM

I'm very sorry for such a dumb hosts of the ceremony in Mosocw. Even I'm surprised how dumb they actually are :( Not all russians are like them :D

benny1967

05-15-2009, 09:23 AM

I'm very sorry for such a dumb hosts of the ceremony in Mosocw. Even I'm surprised how dumb they actually are :( Not all russians are like them :D

I was actually a little shocked when I saw them... they seem like a parody. Are they real people? Who are they? Actors, singers, ...?

wazd

05-15-2009, 09:40 AM

I was actually a little shocked when I saw them... they seem like a parody. Are they real people? Who are they? Actors, singers, ...?
Unfortunately for them they are real people :D Natalya Vodyanova (top model, no comments) and Andrey Malakhov (he's a real TV guy, yeah-yeah). So I'm really ashamed of their way of presenting russia to the europe. In real life I'm really a shameless guy :D but that stuff really blew my mind... Oh dear...

benny1967

05-15-2009, 09:44 AM

Natalya Vodyanova (top model, no comments)

well, knowing she's only a top model, she doesn't do all that bad. i mean... she can talk, can't she? that's a lot more than one would expect. :p

and Andrey Malakhov (he's a real TV guy, yeah-yeah).

his hair! his hair!

i have no idea what he looks like or what he said.... i just kept staring at this.... this thing on his head and was afraid it would burst into pieces if somebody accidentally touched it. :eek:

wazd

05-15-2009, 09:50 AM

i have no idea what he looks like or what he said....
I think that was the aim of his hair :D To make you not listening him :D

krisse

05-15-2009, 10:40 AM

I'm very sorry for such a dumb hosts of the ceremony in Mosocw. Even I'm surprised how dumb they actually are :( Not all russians are like them :D

The presenters are a bit annoying, but the interval acts are brilliant!

I loved the giant russian dolls which were coated in television screens, and the dancing is great.

I've been very impressed with the Russian production of Eurovision so far.

ioan

05-15-2009, 12:38 PM

probably this is the kind of song ESC-haters associate with the contest. i don't like it a lot.

I don't like it either. I remember back in Romania everybody making a big deal about this competition and I always thought that most of the songs kind of sucked.

TA-t3

05-15-2009, 12:46 PM

I agree that the interval acts are the better part of the production! :D
(as far as I'm concerned they could just have left out the ESC artists and kept only the interval entertainment)

benny1967

05-15-2009, 01:08 PM

Voting Sheet Available!

I can feel all of you will sit in front of your TV sets tomorrow, celebrating the event. You need a pen and a list with all the participants so you can give your points.

Thats what this voting sheet is for.
There's a PDF (https://festplatte.aon.at/a/filemanager.get/8001174/VotingSheet2009en.pdf) and an ODT (https://festplatte.aon.at/a/filemanager.get/8001187/VotingSheet2009en.odt) in English; the German versions are linked from my blog (http://oskar.twoday.net/stories/5703488/). ;)

benny1967

05-16-2009, 11:52 AM

Oh dear.... Russia. Again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30776382/

Really makes you wonder ...

krisse

05-16-2009, 01:39 PM

Oh dear.... Russia. Again.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30776382/

Really makes you wonder ...

Yeah, it seems the Russian authorities haven't entered the 21st century yet.

Presumably they'll claim that homosexuality is a NATO plot.

krisse

05-16-2009, 04:02 PM

Moldova is being excellent, excellent outfit on the singer and great tune. If it was in english it would be a real contender for winning.

Baloo

05-16-2009, 04:02 PM

I'm more impressed with the LED screens all around the set. In high def (BBC HD) the sets look amazing.

krisse

05-16-2009, 04:06 PM

I'm more impressed with the LED screens all around the set. In high def (BBC HD) the sets look amazing.

Yeah, even more impressive were the screens shaped like giant Russian dolls which featured in the first semi-final interval. At one point they "froze over" and one of the dancers smashed the ice of them with a hammer, totally in sync.

Apparently the BBC edited all of the interval though in favour of showing stuff about the British entry... :rolleyes:

gazza_d

05-16-2009, 04:36 PM

is anyone watching it?

krisse

05-16-2009, 05:14 PM

is anyone watching it?

Yeah, watched the whole thing, just waiting for the votes now.

krisse

05-16-2009, 05:23 PM

Well, looks like Norway have it in the bag already, they've stayed top of the votes so far.

Unfortunately Britain's abomination of a "song" is doing well too.

wazd

05-16-2009, 05:48 PM

Goddamn sold votes. This excavator guy from Norway sucks honestly. I've voted for Estonia, it's absolutely lovable girl and song and performance overall. Thousand times better than Norway :(

krisse

05-16-2009, 05:54 PM

Uh oh, looks like Finland's all-time Eurovision vote record is about to be broken by Norway. :-(

krisse

05-16-2009, 05:55 PM

Oh bum, there goes Lordi's record.

krisse

05-16-2009, 05:57 PM

Y'know, as soon as the votes closed the Finnish announcers on YLE said that Norway had ALREADY booked a hall for hosting the contest, before they even knew the final's results.

Presumably Norway had overwhelmingly won the semi-finals just like Lordi did.

EDIT: Apparently the UK bookmakers had Norway on odds of just 4/5 to win. They must have known some kind of inside information about the voting in the semis, which is breaking the rules.

gazza_d

05-16-2009, 06:05 PM

Good Grief, The UK is actually getting a respectable score for the first time in years - WooHoo!

krisse

05-16-2009, 06:10 PM

Good Grief, The UK is actually getting a respectable score for the first time in years - WooHoo!

They should have done it with last year's song, which was quite good. This year's was terrible!

gazza_d

05-16-2009, 06:24 PM

don't remember last years. still trying to blank out the dodgy airline song/group, and the really dodgy teacher/schoolgirl act from a couple of years ago.

Quite a number of decent songs this year, quite impressed - Norway did very very well though. Kudos to them.

wazd

05-16-2009, 06:25 PM

benny1967

05-16-2009, 06:42 PM

Great winner. I like the song. Bosnia&Herzegovina, Sweden, Malta or France were great as well.... Actually, I cannot remember a ESC with so many great performances.

maacruz

05-16-2009, 07:13 PM

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8195/eurovisionvotingzi5.jpg
LOL :D
That really is an accurate representation of voting in ESC.

That's what motivated Spain "protest singer" in 2008 :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRQhZtbm97I
LOL :D
I still remember when he was chosen by popular vote, he couldn't believe it and some of the other participants started crying. He was a comedian in a popular night TV show and went to the RTVE contest just for the fun.
There is a wikipedia page too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodolfo_Chikilicuatre

attila77

05-16-2009, 07:41 PM

Great winner. I like the song. Bosnia&Herzegovina, Sweden, Malta or France were great as well.... Actually, I cannot remember a ESC with so many great performances.

Yes, surprisingly good stuff compared to previous years, don't know if it was because of the jury vote or are people coming to their senses :) Even the previously regularly, kahm, downvoted countries managed to get good performers and, more surprisingly a solid number of votes.

PS. To a poster above: Tarja Tulonen is from Finland. :)

PPS. Who is the SEVENTH in the Yugoslav backpattery !?! I just miss that one, the poodle and 2 from the russian block, all the rest are solved/assigned !

qgil

05-17-2009, 03:35 AM

That's what motivated Spain "protest singer" in 2008 :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRQhZtbm97I
LOL :D

I had missed that. How embarrassing, I couldn't make it beyond 2:20.

Watching the video of the winner now. I had to check it was really Norway and no Ireland. Also the name didn't sound too Norwegian but then I learned he is born in Minsk. Definitely something is changing in Europe! Yes, for good, although something is to be missed if no local languages and flavours of EU-cheesiness show up anymore.

About the guy. He has good voice, plays the viano and violin since the age of 5, has a sense of choreography and is cute. Well done, boy. Now, escape from ESC asap!

yerga

05-17-2009, 03:54 AM

I had missed that. How embarrassing, I couldn't make it beyond 2:20.

He was the most voted spanish participant in the last six years (counting this year too).

qgil

05-17-2009, 04:05 AM

He was the most voted spanish participant in the last six years (counting this year too).

Why this doesn't surprise me. ;)

krisse

05-17-2009, 07:03 AM

By the way, the Russian interval acts in the semi-finals were a lot better than in the final.

What the heck was that swimming pool on the ceiling supposed to be?

although something is to be missed if no local languages and flavours of EU-cheesiness show up anymore.

There are a lot more local languages in the semi-finals, but people don't tend to vote for them.

I was very keen on Serbia's entry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KqQWW0MCIU) which was sung in Serbian, but it didn't make it to the finals.

wazd

05-17-2009, 08:07 AM

Talking bout local languages, I couldn't even emagine how beautiful could be a song in estonian =)

fms

05-17-2009, 08:17 AM

What the heck was that swimming pool on the ceiling supposed to be?
Was supposed to break and spill down but didn't. What a disappointment, really...

benny1967

05-17-2009, 10:22 AM

I was very keen on Serbia's entry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KqQWW0MCIU) which was sung in Serbian, but it didn't make it to the finals.

it should have been in the finals, right.... it's such a long show and you'd be so thankful for having three minutes to go to the toilet or get some more sandwiches from the kitchen... :p

benny1967

05-17-2009, 10:27 AM

Talking bout local languages, I couldn't even emagine how beautiful could be a song in estonian =)

Right! It was a beautiful performance, and I liked the melody, but I think even more I enjoyed just listening to herrrr prrronouncing the "R"... ;)

krisse

05-17-2009, 10:31 AM

it should have been in the finals, right.... it's such a long show and you'd be so thankful for having three minutes to go to the toilet or get some more sandwiches from the kitchen... :p

I remember when they used to read out all their votes, not just the 8/10/12. That took ages, thank goodness they scrapped it when the membership of Eurovision expanded.

pycage

05-18-2009, 03:20 AM

Goddamn, I hate Eurovision. Senseless, unfair money washer. Screw that screaming drunk belarus immigrant... Norway has a bunch of great voices, Taria from Nightwish for example, why the hell they showed that crap?!
P.S.: Estonia, we love ya :)

Well, Tarja's from Finland, and no longer with Nightwish. But Nightwish almost were sent to the ESC with "Sleepwalker" some years ago. But they didn't win the Finnish votings, so somebody else was sent.

benny1967

05-18-2009, 04:10 AM

Yeah, it seems the Russian authorities haven't entered the 21st century yet.

Presumably they'll claim that homosexuality is a NATO plot.

What a cruel twist of fate... That brutal assault on a handful of gays sure backfired on Russia in terms of PR:

During this weekend, there was not one single arcticle about ESC in any of the papers I read (including the tabloids that you get for free in the underground) that did not cover the demonstration in detail, giving extensive background information about gay and lesbian rights in the Soviet Union Russia. The same is true for all internet sources. Even a weekly magazine that only covers TV and movie events (and gives you all the info you never wanted to know about weddings and divorces and such) published a full page with an interview about human rights in general (and the situation for gays and lesbians in particular) with a renowned Austrian journalist living in Moscow.

It was also featured in the main evening news on saturday with footage that really showed the bestial brutality and aggression of the Russian police, plus interviews with Russian passers-by who said things like "our beautiful country must be cleaned of such perversions" and "These people are sent by Satan". The Song Contest itself as the motive for the demonstration was only mentioned by the anchorman in a brief explanation before.

Knowing that Putin's accomplices broke up the demonstration because they wanted to avoid any international press reports related to homosexuality during the ESC, this whole thing sure backfired on them. And how it did!

Had they simply ignored the (only 30) people at the demonstration, not one single jounalist would have written about it. A handful of gay men holding up signposts and rainbow flags is no story. Police beating up and arresting innocent citizens sure is a great story, even more so if beefed up by nazi-esque statements given by people who watch.

I wish I knew how to support the people who went to jail for this. (I mean, imagine what impact they had: 30 people, only about one minute, and they get as much media attention as a ~30 Million Euro spectacle. Chapeau!)

krisse

05-18-2009, 08:29 AM

Had they simply ignored the (only 30) people at the demonstration, not one single jounalist would have written about it. A handful of gay men holding up signposts and rainbow flags is no story. Police beating up and arresting innocent citizens sure is a great story, even more so if beefed up by nazi-esque statements given by people who watch.

Authorities in general never seem to learn the danger of cracking down on demonstrations.

It was also featured in the main evening news on saturday with footage that really showed the bestial brutality and aggression of the Russian police, plus interviews with Russian passers-by who said things like "our beautiful country must be cleaned of such perversions" and "These people are sent by Satan".

I wonder how well this represents Russians as a whole... Are Russians in general anti-gay, or did the journalists only show the passers-by who were?

benny1967

05-18-2009, 08:48 AM

I wonder how well this represents Russians as a whole... Are Russians in general anti-gay, or did the journalists only show the passers-by who were?

Both, probably.

Of course the journalists were not trying to do a representative survey. From what I could tell, the interviews were taken right were the demonstration was, and the people they interviewed looked to me as if they'd come there to "help" just in case the police wouldn't "clean" the streets properly.

On the other hand:

In the interview I mentioned above, the Austrian journalist said that the situation for gays and lesbians in Mosow is bad and they are being harrassed in the streets, in restaurants and other public places (by other citizens, not by the authorities).

Also, a journalist who blogged about the event for German NDR said something along the lines of: "It was a great show and all that, but most of us journalists and artists agree it's an even better feeling lo leave this country again. The air of violence and oppression is new to the regular followers of the ESC circus and doesn't match the happy and liberal image the Russians tried to stage for us. We are very much looking forward to Norway, a country that, compared to this years host, looks warm and bright and sunny."

fms

05-18-2009, 09:24 AM

Also, a journalist who blogged about the event for German NDR said something along the lines of: "It was a great show and all that, but most of us journalists and artists agree it's an even better feeling lo leave this country again. The air of violence and oppression is new to the regular followers of the ESC circus and doesn't match the happy and liberal image the Russians tried to stage for us."
Ah, how romantic, sounds almost nostalgic about the days of the Evil Empire(tm)... Except that he seems to have visited a different city. While it is true that the Moscow government routinely shoots itself in the foot by dispersing "unwanted" demonstrations, I have no idea where that guy found "the air of violence and oppression". Maybe he shouldn't have bought dope from that shady guy on the street, however cheap it was.

Meanwhile, gay pride parade in St Petersburg went through without a hitch,

http://lenta.ru/news/2009/05/17/parade/

pretty much confirming the fact that it is cheaper and easier to just let poor gays do whatever they want to do, as long as it does not disturb public peace.

krisse

05-18-2009, 09:37 AM

Meanwhile, gay pride parade in St Petersburg went through without a hitch,

http://lenta.ru/news/2009/05/17/parade/

pretty much confirming the fact that it is cheaper and easier to just let poor gays do whatever they want to do, as long as it does not disturb public peace.

That's very interesting, so the Moscow crackdown may be more to do with the Moscow local government rather than the Russian national government?

fms

05-18-2009, 09:48 AM

That's very interesting, so the Moscow crackdown may be more to do with the Moscow local government rather than the Russian national government?
Correct, especially given city mayor's vocal opposition to gays.

krisse

05-18-2009, 09:59 AM

Correct, especially given city mayor's vocal opposition to gays.

That isn't really being reported properly in foreign media.

The problem is perhaps that when people hear "Moscow did this" they assume it means the national government, but from what you are saying it sounds like it's more to do with just one branch of local government.

fms

05-18-2009, 10:06 AM

That isn't really being reported properly in foreign media.
Krisse, there is a lot of things going on in Russia that are not being properly reported in foreign media. It is much easier to paint the place full of the "air of violence and oppression" and most foreign readers won't notice a thing, feeling better about their own "unoppressed" existence. The reality is not this black and white of course, and it has got a lot of weird nuances.

benny1967

05-18-2009, 10:15 AM

That's very interesting, so the Moscow crackdown may be more to do with the Moscow local government rather than the Russian national government?

Again, probably both ;)

The mayor of Moscow is known to be radically anti-gay - more so than the country as such. You may remember gay demonstrations in Moscow from past years that ended in violence and blood, even a member of the German parliament (Volker Beck) was beaten up and arrested in 2007 when he went to support gays in Moscow. (Pictures showing his face covered with blood were in the front pages of every paper back then...)

He (the mayor) actually warned gay Eurovision fans at a Eurovision event in December 2008: "Don't come to Moscow. You are not welcome here."

For the ESC, though, the order to keep everything "clean and proper" was most probably given by the Kremlin. For the third time now I refer to the Austrian journalist who was interviewed by a magazine (I should finally tell her name: Susanne Scholl). She said that not only are authorities prepared to cope with gay rights activists should they dare to show up (the interview was given before the demonstration), but also they'd removed everything else that's "unwanted" and would not fit the image of Russia they plan to sell... like a number of homeless who were transported to a place outside of Moskow.

They invested a lot of money, you see... The show was ridiculously expensive. (I don't have the exact figures: ORF reported 30 Mio Euros, ARD said 42 Mio Euros, one press release said 35 Mio Euros, another 24 Mio.....).
What they want to do - actually, what almost every host country wanted to do in the past years - is sell an image of their country. They know they have 100 million viewers worldwide and get a lot of media attention in the week before the show. Everything has to be right. You don't spend millions of Euros for nothing. You want something in return. And you don't want to make mistakes.

Putin himself went to check everything at the rehearsals. It was important.

So whatever the local city authorities did - maybe it wasn't an explicit order by the Russian government, but it certainly wasn't against their will. They knew there would be lots of gay men (and gay journalists) in town, they knew Russian gay activists would try to make use of the international media attention, and I very much doubt the mayor of Moscow didn't talk to the Russian government about what to do in case of a demonstration.

qgil

05-18-2009, 01:39 PM

krisse

05-18-2009, 01:59 PM

Mass media are exactly in the same position than Eurovision groups: if you are too good and serious in your profession you won't get the vote of the audience. Most people in front of a TV want simple and somehow predictable stories touching their feelings more than their deeper opions (or lack of).

That's possibly why the journalism seems to be better on late night low-rated news programmes, they know there's no audience anyway so they might as well do their job properly.

benny1967

05-18-2009, 03:41 PM

When I was still at the university, I was a member of a (then illegal) group fighting for gay rights. (Homosexuality was illegal in Austria until 1971. Being member of a gay organization and providing certain kinds of information about homosexuality remained illegal until 1996.)

Some friends went to jail or were blackmailed. Many lost their jobs or businesses without much of a chance to get a foot on the ground again because, even without going to jail, a criminal record simply doesn't look good when applying for a job.

I know I was observed by the police in those days. We could see them when they took pictures of our meetings from the most ridiculous places.

It wasn't a nice time, but some things you have to do. (Although it was never as bad as what we see in Moscow... there never was physical violence and blood.)

Sadly, we didn't get much international support back then. While most other (Western-)European countries had much more liberal laws at that time, public awareness and media support was a different issue. It simply wasn't regarded a matter of human rights. Nobody cared whether the fags went to jail in that yodelling country or not.

A lot has changed since then, and I can at least say I was part of those who pushed things. (Had there been a karma system, I'd probably gotten a few points for designing flyers, doing editorial work and writing articles for a bi-monthly paper, being a regular at a counseling hotline, founder of the first online information service ever in our country, and giving talks at public events of politically interested groups.)

So that was then.

Today, I see these things happening in Russia. I read the blogs, I chat with people, I read the websites of the now legal organisations I used to be a member of to stay informed. I am informed! Dammit!

I'm angry and feel helpless, but at the same time with satisfaction and pride I see how the public reacts, how the media react. This is more than 1000 miles away, but still there's an uproar in the same media that only a little more than 10 years ago completely ignored what was going on in their own country.

That's a good thing.

And then I read:

Mass media are exactly in the same position than Eurovision groups: if you are too good and serious in your profession you won't get the vote of the audience. Most people in front of a TV want simple and somehow predictable stories touching their feelings more than their deeper opions (or lack of).

Reading this about exactly the media that finally, after all these years, care and dare,... Reading it in the context of an interview given by Susanne Scholl, who works as a correspondent for our public national broadcaster in Moskow since 1991 and is certainly not the one to deliver simple and predictable stories... Is it necessary to belittle what the activists go through when they're arrested? Is it necessary to question the truth of Volker Beck being wounded? These are not simple, superficial "stories touching feelings more than deeper opions". - There's nobody denying it happens! Even the Russian administration doesn't, they only try to justify it on moral grounds.

I don't see the point of such a statement. This not a topic you discuss in theory like UI design and browser engines. This is about people's real lives... and scars.

krisse

05-18-2009, 04:05 PM

Some friends went to jail or were blackmailed.

This is apparently how homosexuality was legalised in the UK. There was SO much blackmail going on that even people with anti-gay feelings often favoured legalisation, because they didn't want to see criminals benefitting from blackmail.

Reading this about exactly the media that finally, after all these years, care and dare,... Reading it in the context of an interview given by Susanne Scholl, who works as a correspondent for our public national broadcaster in Moskow since 1991 and is certainly not the one to deliver simple and predictable stories...

Part of the problem is that there are excellent journalists in the field but the editors don't always give them the prominence they deserve.

There was an excellent BBC correspondent called Charles Wheeler who risked his life sneaking into Hungary during the 1956 uprising, and then managed to smuggle exclusive film of the event back out to the BBC. You'd think that would be easily their top story, but they apparently led with news from the Suez crisis instead, which was more directly connected to Britain.

fms

05-18-2009, 04:18 PM

Homosexuality was illegal in Austria until 1971. Being member of a gay organization and providing certain kinds of information about homosexuality remained illegal until 1996. .. Some friends went to jail or were blackmailed. Many lost their jobs or businesses without much of a chance to get a foot on the ground again because, even without going to jail, a criminal record simply doesn't look good when applying for a job. ... I know I was observed by the police in those days. We could see them when they took pictures of our meetings from the most ridiculous places.

Now, none of these things are actually happening in Moscow. While homosexuality is frowned upon and condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church, nobody will track you, take your pictures, or send you to jail for it. You will not even get fired, as long as you are not hitting on your straight coworkers, etc. The most you can hope for is a few slurs every now and then. In order to be beaten, you have to do something really stupid. Because in practice, nobody cares who or what you are. The city is too big for it, too many different people.

Now, those guys who came to that demonstration openly defied Moscow government specific refusal to allow the gay parade and got pretty much the same handling as other groups who previously defied government ban on public events, from liberals, to anarchists, to nazis. It is Russia after all, you can't expect Russian government to be nice and humane (see previous Russian history starting with Ivan The Terrible). The government is absolutely horrified by any public events it has no control of, especially after the Orange Revolution in Ukraine. These chinovniks are really small, closed-minded people who just want things to stay the same, everyone be quiet and happy. For them, any change is trouble, as it means being fired (at best) or sentenced (at worst).

Note that this in no way indicates that gays are being systematically persecuted by the state, like they have been in Austria. Basically, nobody but a few clinical homophobes cares.

benny1967

05-18-2009, 04:34 PM

In order to be beaten, you have to do something really stupid.

Like being too open about it outside the gay bars...

... Moscow government specific refusal to allow the gay parade

... which was what the whole thing is all about since i-don't-know-when... year after year. Being denied the right to demonstrate for your rights. A mayor refusing this democratic right on the grounds of you being "satanic" doesn't exactly help here.

For those who feel oppressed, it doesn't matter much if it's by law, by church, by the society as such (like in 2006 when a number gay bars were occupied and the police didn't do a thing to help the owners) or by a mayor who just gets away with it. This fight's been going on for years and denying it doesn't make it go away.

krisse

05-18-2009, 04:36 PM

Now, none of these things are actually happening in Moscow. While homosexuality is frowned upon and condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church, nobody will track you, take your pictures, or send you to jail for it. You will not even get fired, as long as you are not hitting on your straight coworkers, etc. The most you can hope for is a few slurs every now and then. In order to be beaten, you have to do something really stupid. Because in practice, nobody cares who or what you are. The city is too big for it, too many different people.

Now, those guys who came to that demonstration openly defied Moscow government specific refusal to allow the gay parade and got pretty much the same handling as other groups who previously defied government ban on public events, from liberals, to anarchists, to nazis. It is Russia after all, you can't expect Russian government to be nice and humane (see previous Russian history starting with Ivan The Terrible). The government is absolutely horrified by any public events it has no control of, especially after the Orange Revolution in Ukraine. These chinovniks are really small, closed-minded people who just want things to stay the same, everyone be quiet and happy. For them, any change is trouble, as it means being fired (at best) or sentenced (at worst).

Note that this in no way indicates that gays are being systematically persecuted by the state, like they have been in Austria. Basically, nobody but a few clinical homophobes cares.

Thanks for that (I'd give you a "thanks" but there's no thanks button on off-topic).

It's very very interesting to hear from people who actually live inside Russia. It's amazing when you think about it, this kind of conversation would have been totally impossible 20 years ago.

It is odd how countries get reported from the outside, Finland only gets mentioned if it relates to Saunas, Father Christmas or Nokia, which isn't exactly the whole story.

During the 1990s, apart from Yeltsin the only Russian politician who made headlines overseas was Zhirinovsky (or however it's transliterated), not because he stood any real chance of power but because he was saying some pretty outrageous things.

fms

05-18-2009, 04:53 PM

Like being too open about it outside the gay bars...
I am not sure what you mean by "too open". I observed gays kissing in the streets and that did not appear to cause any reaction from the crowd whatsoever. Maybe if you do it in front of a crowd of drunk flatheads, or in a church, that would grant you some beating, but then you won't deny you have been asking for it.

which was what the whole thing is all about since i-don't-know-when... year after year. Being denied the right to demonstrate for your rights.
The mayor denies demonstrations to quite a few other groups as well, and deals with violators in pretty much the same way, with the level of violence slowly growing with each new event. And yes, he appears to be mildly homophobic, i.e. afraid of gays but not on a crusade against them, just fencing his аss.

This fight's been going on for years and denying it doesn't make it go away.
I had no idea there was any "fight" going on, really. It is probably being fought by such a small number of people that the news do not even end up on the Net. Most people, gay and straight alike, just learn how to play the game with whatever cards they have been dealt.

benny1967

05-18-2009, 05:28 PM

I'm having a déjà vu now, really...

Just for those who still follow: I found a short summary of the situation as I know it from regular reports here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia#Post-Soviet

As for your points, fms, I'm as helpless as I was when I was personally confronted with such statements in my wild, wild youth. I heard all these things. It basically boils down to people who are not affected telling me that I don't have a problem.

I have learned from this experience that if somebody is willing to fight for his rights in spite of high risks (like being arrested, as the protesters were on saturday), there must be something to it. Who am I to tell him everything's OK? Who am I to tell him he should stop complaining because there's other groups who get the same bad treatment? Who am I to tell him that if things get rough, he probably "asked for it"? For Christ's sake!?

If they have a message to get through, then they have a right to be heard. If they're not granted this right by their mayor (and, even more, have to be afraid of physical attacks), we have a problem with human rights. And that's where all this started. Human rights. That's a very different concept from "learning how to play the game with whatever cards you have been dealt."

qgil

05-19-2009, 11:35 AM

Reading this about exactly the media that finally, after all these years, care and dare,... Reading it in the context of an interview given by

My apologies if the comment hurt but I think it's just a misunderstanding.

Actually my comment was following fms (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=288348&postcount=86)' on the simplification made by mass media about almost any event. The proof of this: the same aggression would have happened in the same time and place without Eurovision around and only a fraction of the same audience would have known (let alone discussed) about it.

This has nothing to do with the struggle, progress and vitories achieved by the gay movement in Western societies, and that includes more and better coverage by the media. My comment is actually not targeted either to the good journalists you mention - but to the headlines + 40 seconds summary + images the big chunk of the audience has seen.

[It was not a frivolous comment either. You here know me for one thing but actually ten years ago most people knew me as a former newspaper journalist writing and teaching about journalism and the new media].

attila77

05-19-2009, 11:51 AM

If they have a message to get through, then they have a right to be heard. If they're not granted this right by their mayor (and, even more, have to be afraid of physical attacks), we have a problem with human rights. And that's where all this started. Human rights. That's a very different concept from "learning how to play the game with whatever cards you have been dealt."

You *have* to put in context. You can't just take a fight of your own and apply your (past) situation to one that is in different time and space just because you sympathize with people on one side. It's not the same. I understand it might remind you of something you relate to, but the context IS different. As for the message, I'm not sure what is was and who was it intended for and where, just as I'm not sure of that in the case of, say, Whale Wars. But we have successfully beaten this topic to death, so let it rest in peace until next year in Oslo.

benny1967

05-19-2009, 02:53 PM

My apologies if the comment hurt but I think it's just a misunderstanding.

Actually my comment was following fms (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=288348&postcount=86)' on the simplification made by mass media about almost any event.

well that really was a misunderstanding then. i read your statement and thought you'd refer to the whole topic, kind of letting us know that all this is probably staged or made up by the media (or both) and we shouldn't believe a word of it because it's only a story to attract viewers. i didn't see the connection to fms's statement which now, as you mention it, is obvious.

and yes, i felt hurt. hurt, angry and ready to strike back. (i still feel this way about other statements made here... i'll better leave instead.)

sorry about that, quim. i owe you a beer prosecco.