Harmattan?

[wazd]

http://gizmodo.com/5260260/nokias-leaked-future-tablet-screenshot-large-smartphone

[YoDude]

...but it is an interesting widget-based ad-supported system subsidized by carriers.

Is this what we are all doing here?

I truly hope someone from Maemo addresses this allegation.

[krisse]

I'm never sure what to make of these kinds of "leaks".

Even if it was genuine, it doesn't really tell you anything about Harmattan because it's basically just a multi-screen calendar application. It would be like having just the tyres of a new car model: important components but not exactly saying much about the car as a whole.

If it is real, I'm going to guess this is an in-house mockup and not really a screenshot.

It looks very nice, and I like the idea of moving around the application the same way you'd move around a website.

[Snoshrk]

Looks interesting.... I am not liking the Q4 2010 release date mentioned. Did anyone happen to see the carrier "Adverts" that the writeup mentioned?

edit:
Ouch, I really need sleep... For some reason I read this as refering to the NEXT tablet , not the next plus 1.

[krisse]

Is this what we are all doing here?

I truly hope someone from Maemo addresses this allegation.

I really wouldn't read too much into that, it looks like it's just a concept screen and most leaked Nokia concept stuff never makes it off the drawing board. (For example a few years ago there was a huge spate of leaks of a "Nokia Neo (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=%22nokia+neo%22&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2)" device with no keypad or touchscreen, just a circular dial, but it was never actually released. And there must have been two or three leaked "N96"s which bore no resemblance to any released phones.)

On top of that, Q4 2010 is such a long way away that no one could possibly make a decision on such a project right now anyway.

Also, the people writing the article aren't exactly researching things properly - they refer to "Symbian S40 and S60"... S40 isn't Symbian and anyone serious about phone OSes should know that. It would be like writing an article about desktop OSes and talking about Microsoft Linux.

EDIT: Just to give a further example of being cautious about taking leaks too seriously, I once got a scoop by obtaining a genuine internal Nokia document which contained all their plans for the new N-Gage platform. A lot of the stuff in the document simply never happened, it was stuff that was planned and some of it even announced at some point but never actually carried through.

Closer to home, the Nokia 7700 was supposed to be their first touchscreen device and that too never actually went into production despite prototypes being sent to reviewers.

I'm not saying anything about this leak is wrong, I've got no idea whether it's correct or not. I'm just saying that all leaks have to be taken with a very very large pinch of salt as it's impossible to be certain which concepts and products actually make it into the shops.

[tso]

the most i can get from it is that someone at nokia is playing around with extending the screen area virtually...

[krisse]

the most i can get from it is that someone at nokia is playing around with extending the screen area virtually...

...if you took it to an extreme by assuming an always-on connection, you could even have the interface made up entirely of web pages. :-)

I don't think that's the case here, obviously, but web-based content is starting to creep into mobile apps here and there already.

[Thesandlord]

Wow guys... So critical...

I just wanted to say:

LOOKS SO COOL!!!!

[sachin007]

Silence from both peter@maemomarketing and Ragnar, proves that this in fact is remotely true..... or is it not?

[benny1967]

...if you took it to an extreme by assuming an always-on connection, you could even have the interface made up entirely of web pages. :-)

I don't think that's the case here, obviously, but web-based content is starting to creep into mobile apps here and there already.

... we can only hopy this creepy fashion will be gone again soon. ;)

[codeMonkey]

@sachin
Or maybe their timezone isn't awake yet ;)

[benny1967]

Is this what we are all doing here?

I truly hope someone from Maemo addresses this allegation.

While I don't like the idea of anything on my Maemo device (phone or not) making it irreversably dependent on an "always on"-connection, I don't really have a problem with the idea of ads.

See, right now, to get a cheap phone, I have to pay the carrier; renew my new contract for another year or two, sign up to a data plan, whatever. It's money. I can refuse the deal and pay the full price.
If I get an option for the same cheap phone by simply having part of my home screen reserved for an ad - why not? As long as there's still the possibility to get the ads-free version at full price.


The other thing that sounds bad is that the ad isn't removable, which somehow feels wrong in the context of a "free" operating system. You expect to be able to hack your device, don't you, and even more you expect to have full control over the home screen.
I don't know how they'd implement it code-wise, but I remember Nokia saying that free code may end at the level of the user interface. That's not news to us. We knew they'd probably build a proprietary UI on top of the free components... and an ad module being hardwired into this proprietary UI doesn't taint the free components or make them less hackable.

So if these rumours are true, as long as it's an option you can choose to keep the price down I'm happy with it.

And in general... I'm too busy getting my old brain to love Fremantle, I'm not inclined to worry about unconfirmed rumours that may or may not affect a device that may or may not be released 2010/2011. ;)

[sachin007]

@sachin
Or maybe their timezone isn't awake yet ;)

Actually i saw them online on the forum for quite sometime, haven't seen qgil yet.

[lma]

Silence from both peter@maemomarketing and Ragnar, proves that this in fact is remotely true..... or is it not?

Oh come on, do you really expect them to go around confirming or denying every little rumour that gets posted on some blog?

Personal opinion: I don't buy it, and even if it was an actual idea at some point the advertising bubble is bursting as we speak and 2010-11 would be a very bad time for an ad-subsidised revenue model. Not to mention the legal minefield of data protection and privacy legislation, just look at all the (very legitimate IMHO) hassle Google is getting from the EU for a lot less.

Also, the "screenshot" does look vaguely Fremantle-ish but contains nothing to support the allegation either and looks suspect in other ways (630 pixels is a very odd screen width, and seriously, "Lastest"?!).

[lardman]

Well the last Thursday the 22nd was in January (2009), and the one before that was in May 2008. Unless they're from the future, in which case October 2009 it is ;)

I was just wondering about when the software was being worked on/leaked.

[fms]

Well the last Thursday the 22nd was in January (2009), and the one before that was in May 2008. Unless they're from the future, in which case October 2009 it is ;) I was just wondering about when the software was being worked on/leaked.
It is most likely a mockup. Nevertheless, as mockups go, it looks pretty realistic. Most UI elements shown in this image can be found in previous Nokia UIs. The title bar follows the style of S60e5 menu overlays and the icons are familiar too. The vertically scrolled display can be found in the Sports Tracker. Similar widgets have been shown in the upcoming N97 UI snapshots. So, yes, that may well be a Harmattan or even Freemantle app, from the look of it.

[ColdFusion]

Silence from both peter@maemomarketing and Ragnar, proves that this in fact is remotely true..... or is it not?

And if they come and deny it, it'll be clearly that they want to hide something! :D
They are trapped! We have them now! :D

[YoDude]

...if you took it to an extreme by assuming an always-on connection, you could even have the interface made up entirely of web pages. :-)

I don't think that's the case here, obviously, but web-based content is starting to creep into mobile apps here and there already.

If pages are stored locally, the only need for a connection would be to update data.

>> EXAMPLES << (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=28221)


XUL code may even reach out to the device its own dang self. (see attachment).

The problem that I have with the quote I posted in this thread is Carrier Subsidized...
Many of us in the US and Canada have looked at Nokia as the last great hope to free us from the constraints that this business model has imposed over the years. We have seen how technology has been harbored and innovation has been stifled.

Also... something about using community developed FOSS to sell soap back to the very same community rubs me the wrong way.

It is not like you are buying all your kids "Band Candy" in order to support extra curricular activities at his/her school. Rather, it would be like being told that if you don't buy product "X", your kids school may not get the new roof it needs.

[krisse]

The problem that I have with the quote I posted in this thread is Carrier Subsidized...
Many of us in the US and Canada have looked at Nokia as the last great hope to free us from the constraints that this business model has imposed over the years. We have seen how technology has been harbored and innovation has been stifled.

Quite frankly, the grip network operators have over American phone hardware is the fault of Americans themselves. Americans who are worried about network operators crippling hardware should put their money where their mouth is instead of playing the helpless victim.

Innovation has been stifled in America more than elsewhere because Americans have this weird idea that phones MUST be bought from network operators, that phones MUST be "activated". Neither of those things is even remotely true. Americans have got into the habit of always going to their network operator to buy a phone, and they are willing to buy phones that cannot be moved to other networks. Aren't there alarm bells ringing at that point? Would you buy a computer that only works with one ISP?

If you don't want to have any network operator involvement, don't buy your phones from network operators. You don't buy PCs from ISPs, you don't buy cars from fuel stations, so why the heck are you buying phones from network operators?

I have never ever bought anything from a network operator. All of my phones have been purchased from electrical retailers, just like computers or televisions or cameras. No activation, no network-locking, just pure hardware which can work on any network (or even without a network if I choose to use it entirely through wi-fi).

Nokia offers practically all its devices in unlocked form in every region, including North America, so it's up to the customer to buy unlocked devices if they want to avoid getting operator-crippled hardware.

Vote with your wallet, it's the only way to stop network operators crippling hardware.

To those who say unlocked phones are expensive: they're not. If you buy a phone from a network operator you're buying it in installments on credit, which is financially the same thing as buying an unlocked phone on a credit card. Quite often the unlocked phone turns out cheaper than the locked one once you add up all the payments, especially as unlocked phones are a lot easier to sell on ebay etc when you upgrade to a new model.

[YoDude]

Innovation has been stifled in America more than elsewhere because Americans have this weird idea that phones MUST be bought from network operators, that phones MUST be "activated". Neither of those things is true.

...perhaps your notion that "Carrier Subsidized" is just a weird idea of North American consumers could be argued best in another thread. :)

[benny1967]

The problem that I have with the quote I posted in this thread is Carrier Subsidized...
Many of us in the US and Canada have looked at Nokia as the last great hope to free us from the constraints that this business model has imposed over the years. We have seen how technology has been harbored and innovation has been stifled.

"Carrier subsidized" means different things to different people in different markets... it's not necessarily as bad as it seems to be in North America

For me, a carrier subsidized phone is the same phone I'd get from the manufacturers store, except its a lot cheaper (mostly: free), it doesn't work with another carriers SIM-card and it may have some applications pre-installed (or settings pre-configured).

I still can use it the same way as the original model. I am not forced to keep the applications and settings the carrier put on the phone. And I can even unlock it if I want to change the carrier (although this is usually done in dingy small stores in dark and narrow streets :D ).

So when I read "carrier subsidized", I just go "Wow, nice! My carrier will offer it for free!". Nothing more.

[krisse]

...perhaps your notion that "Carrier Subsidized" is just a weird idea of North American consumers could be argued best in another thread. :)

There are people in other regions who buy network-locked phones, but America is probably the only western country where people think they MUST buy network-locked phones.

It's not just locking that's dubious, the American market has had all kinds of things like "activation" and charging for received calls which simply wouldn't be acceptable to phone users in other markets.

And like I said in previous threads, only in America was Nokia forced to remove wi-fi from some of its phones at the behest of the network operators.

There is something really rotten about the US phone market, there's no proper competition and anti-competitive measures are just waved through by legislators and consumers alike. There's just total indifference and acceptance by people who really should know better.

Did you see the thread on the iPhone 3G with the title "$199 iPhone"? That shows a total lack of understanding what that price really means, it's actually just an initial payment in a long term agreement. If you buy an iPhone 3G without making an agreement, you're looking at a price closer to $500 - $600.

The one thing that's really hopeful has been Google's insistance that the auction on certain new frequencies should only take place on condition that all devices (even unlocked non-operator ones) should be allowed to use the network.

[krisse]

"Carrier subsidized" means different things to different people in different markets... it's not necessarily as bad as it seems to be in North America

For me, a carrier subsidized phone is the same phone I'd get from the manufacturers store, except its a lot cheaper (mostly: free),

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It is NOT cheaper to buy from a carrier. You are fooling yourself if you think it is. As long as Americans (Edit: or Austrians!) continue to believe that carrier phones are cheaper or free, they will continue to support the carrier-dominated hardware market. They have to break free from this delusion if they want to stop carriers crippling hardware.

When you buy something on a credit card, do you think it's free?

No, because you have to pay it back in installments.

So why the heck do you think a carrier-subsidised phone is free?

You realise all you're doing is buying it at full price but in installments?

[Lord Raiden]

Forgive me for seeming obvious, but doesn't that look an awful lot like a KDE 4.2 desktop?? Or at the very least the widgets?

[YoDude]

...<snip>...
So when I read "carrier subsidized", I just go "Wow, nice! My carrier will offer it for free!". Nothing more.

Provided that you are eligible for an upgrade.
Agree not to be "eligible" for newer upgrades for the next two years, and realize that any deviation from these terms is a violation of your "contract" with your "carrier". Requests to terminate your contract early will be honored provided you pay a $200 early termination fee. Your carrier reserves the right to blah, blah ...first born child... blah, blah...

Again, this is a side argument best served by a new thread. :)

[RichS]

I think the point about carrier subsidised phones (at least in the UK) is that on a 'pay as you go' phone you pay for the phone and then pay for your calls. If you have to buy X amount of credit a month every month for 12 months and buy a phone you end up paying 12X+Y. If however there is a contract that costs X per month, including the phone, it totals 12X per year. It turns out cheaper and 90% of the time you get a better phone than you could afford otherwise.

[krisse]

I think the point about carrier subsidised phones (at least in the UK) is that on a 'pay as you go' phone you pay for the phone and then pay for your calls. If you have to buy X amount of credit a month every month for 12 months and buy a phone you end up paying 12X+Y. If however there is a contract that costs X per month, including the phone, it totals 12X per year. It turns out cheaper and 90% of the time you get a better phone than you could afford otherwise.

Why buy a PAYG phone instead of an unlocked phone though?

PAYG phones usually cost about the same as the same model unlocked, unlocked phones do everything a PAYG phone can do, but unlocked phones can also be used with all other SIM cards from all other networks on all other tariffs.

PAYG handsets are a total con, really. The only reason people buy them is because they think they have to buy them.


It turns out cheaper and 90% of the time you get a better phone than you could afford otherwise.

You're not getting the phone any cheaper on contract, all it's doing is spreading the cost of the phone across a year or two in monthly installments.

You can achieve exactly the same price by buying an unlocked phone on credit or bank loan, but the unlocked phone is a heck of a lot more flexible and easier to sell at the end of it.

[benny1967]

So why the heck do you think a carrier-subsidised phone is free?

You realise all you're doing is buying it at full price but in installments?

yes and no. i signed my contract in 1998 or so IIRC. i can choose to buy a new subsidized phone every xx months (depending on how much my monthly bills are). i don't use my mobile very often, so my bills are low and it's every 1,5-2 years or so for me.

yes, of course i pay for it indirectly. on the other hand: my contract doesn't change whether or not i go and get a new phone. it's not that i want a new phone, find it subsidized model somewhere and then sign a contract to get it free. it's the other way round: i pay for it anyway, and i can choose to take one or not. (usually i don't, it's too much of a hassle to switch to a new phone. i only took 2 phones so far.)

you could of course argue that i could instead have a contract with lower rates that does not include this upgrade program. yes i could, but there's other things in my contract i'd lose then, too, and those are more important for me.


OTOH, none of this is relevant when discussing subsidized phones as such in this market. the point i was trying to make was that the subsidized version of the phone here is no different (or even worse) than the non-subsidized original, which, as far as i understand, is different from the situation in north america.

[YoDude]

I'm thinkin' this is more on point...

http://www.mobilecrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/ad.jpg



...This build of Maemo is a fairly dramatic shift from past releases, having been largely rebuilt for the jump to phones.

The home screen (”Harmattan Direct UI”) is essentially one big vertically scrolling page on which users can add widgets.

We’ve seen a few widget examples so far, and they all appear to take up the full width of the screen.

These widgets are tightly tied to the rest of the phone.

Imagine, for example, that your home screen is made up of a calendar widget and a map widget, along with a handful of other widgets. If you make an appointment with one of your contacts, the appointment will automatically load into the calendar widget, place an icon in the right location on the map widget, and tie itself into any of the other widgets where appropriate

Home screen ad widgets would be tucked between these other widgets.

Unlike the other widgets, ad widgets would not be user removable or customizable.

The current plan is for Nokia to give control of these ad units to the carriers, presumably taking a cut of the ad revenue.

Nokia’s goal with these ad widgets is to make them incredibly context sensitive based on behavioral data. GPS placing you near a K-Mart? Bam! K-Mart ads. Browsing history showing you’re a peruser of Hello Kitty fansites? Sanrio ads might embarrass the hell out of you grace your homescreen.

Our source indicates that this is all part of Nokia’s larger goal of conquering the cell phone cloud services market.

Maemo Harmattan’s tentative release date is Q4 2010/Q1 2011.

Would carriers play along with this idea? Perhaps. While we were digging for independent confirmation of these details, another source pointed out that Pekka Ala-Pietilä, President of Nokia until 2005, left the company to start Blyk. As it just so happens, Blyk is a mobile operator in the Netherlands and UK which gives customers free texts/minutes each month in exchange for ad views. At the very least, this shows that there are carriers out there willing to experiment with the concept.


Community developed?

>> http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/05/18/leaked-nokia-bringing-maemo-to-phones-could-be-ad-supported/

[tso]

i cant make head nor tail of that stuff...

[ARJWright]

Man, I wish I had the energy to get into this discussion last night, but my tablets don't work well as a salsa partner :P

The mockup is a bit on the weak side in some respects, but follows what we've already seen from S60v5 in terms of some of the layout and button arrangement.

The idea that all data will be linked is nothing new, and is as much as what Palm is doing with the webOS, and Android is doing (but is allowing carrier control of those linkages). The key here will be if Maemo will stay something of a community-led effort, or if Nokia will shift the effort towards carriers, allowing communities such as this to tweak and do with how they need. And if you think about it, making the OS a battle ground for carriers and users is a pretty nasty strategy to play both sides of the fence for.

In terms of widgets that talk right into the OS, and then link over those links - nice idea. S60v3 could have done it; v5 should be doing it. Maemo should have been done this as well. Ironically enough, the Sony Mylo does this already - its just not as open as Maemo.

I like the idea, but the screenshot has me thinking that form factors are going ot be toyed with heavily. Something like dual and folding screens (Nokia Morph Concept, OLPC 2, etc.) being the driver for making the OS as transparent as possible, and at the same time as ready for the user as possible without as much intervention. Its going to cause Nokia to piss off some developers because there will need to be some tight rules around "best practices" for certain types of software.

Don't be surprised if the idea of not having a browser comes up ;) It just seems too plausable when you are dealing with linked data like this that a browser (in the traditional sense) is just not needed.

EDIT: Oh yea, I doubt that anyone from Nokia will talk in this thread; at least for the time being. There is way too much that could go wrong in terms of efforts towards M5 if Hamarratan is spoken off too soon - even in an unofficial capacity. If anything, let's just let the Nokia employees and stakeholders be for this one, and enjoy the fact that Maemo is getting some of the Silicon Valley attention that will be needed for M5's devices and Nokia's efforts in the more mainstream techie audiences.

EDIT #2: Any developers looking at making a suitable calendar app that does more than just tell events, should really take this screenshot and go to town.

[brendan]

Quim you listening...

Take out anything related to ad-supported, location based advertising.

[Gorgon]

Ad subsidy? No thanks! I have to deal with ads and banners on my computer all the time which I understand are needed to subsidize the hosting of the web site. But there's no way I want to give up bandwidth or processing power to get bombarded with ads on my mobile device to subsidize what exactly? The OS? The cost of the device? I see banners and billboards and here ads on the radio and TV and it's a little over the top. Not on my device!

[krisse]

I'm thinkin' this is more on point...

Community developed?

>> http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/05/18/leaked-nokia-bringing-maemo-to-phones-could-be-ad-supported/

If a particular phone was ad-supported, then it makes sense that the ad widgets would be proprietary and non-removable, because otherwise who would pay for the hardware? Advertisers aren't going to sign up to a widget that the user can remove, and without advertisers the hardware couldn't be ad-subsidised.

If people don't want an ad-subsidised phone they would buy the non-ad version instead.

But this really isn't worth worrying about at all for many reasons:

First of all, like I said before, leaked proposals usually don't happen. We know that from previous leaks which mostly came to nothing, or were greatly altered. I don't think we should be worrying now about something that might not (and might never) exist.

Secondly, even if there was an ad-subsidised device, it would be released alongside non-ad devices. You can watch an ad-subsidised programme on television, or you can watch it without adverts on DVD. It would probably be the same sort of choice but for hardware.

Thirdly, Q4 2010 is a very very very long time away. Given the current severe economic instability, it's virtually impossible to say whether ad-supported hardware would even be viable by then. The costs of hardware are relatively predictable, but the revenue from advertising is extremely unpredictable, so no one knows whether such an ad-supported plaform would actually pay for itself because no one knows what the ad market will be like in 1.5 years time. Even before the credit crunch the advertising market was going down the toilet, and there is no way that any company would make hard and fast plans about ad-supported hardware so far in advance, especially in the middle of a recession.

Fourthly, the whole point of OSS is that anyone can use the software as they see fit within the terms of the licence. If the licence allows them to add proprietary stuff on top of that (such as ad banners), then it's okay for them to do that. A lot of commercial websites use OSS content systems with proprietary banner code pasted on top of it, how would this be any different?

Fifthly, it's not like Nokia is just sitting there doing nothing, sucking up all the work that other people are doing like some corporate vampire. The Maemo community includes Nokia, so far they've put a lot more resources into Maemo than they have taken out (it's not like the tablets sell in huge numbers). They've dished out hundreds of heavily subsidised tablets to developers, put full-time employees to work on Maemo and recruited more during a recession. There are even some Nokia employees who come onto Talk in their own spare time, and at least one ex-employee who comes to Talk despite not even working for the company any more. There are clearly passionate people working for Nokia's Maemo department, and Maemo wouldn't exist in its current form without Nokia's support (it wouldn't exist without the community's support either of course). Beyond just the legal licence terms, IMHO they have earned the moral right to use Maemo in conjunction with proprietary non-Maemo stuff if they want to, as long as they don't force proprietary stuff on people who don't want it.

I've criticised Nokia for a lot of things when writing on All About Symbian and elsewhere (especially some of their deceptive and restrictive licence terms for purchased content), but I think they've been pretty good to Maemo and stuck with it for years despite Maemo devices not selling too well. Nokia possibly wanting to use Maemo alongside proprietary software in commercial products doesn't negate the work they've done on the platform.

[lcuk]

hmmm maybe I should sell ad space on liqbase :)

http://liqbase.net/liq.20090519_002913.lib.scr.png

nice zoomable spot in the bottom right :)

[GeneralAntilles]

The Maemo community includes Nokia, so far they've put a lot more resources into Maemo than they have taken out (it's not like the tablets sell in huge numbers).

Not only this community, but Nokia has poured tons of money and time into open source projects like Linux (the kernel), Mozilla, BlueZ, DBus, GTK, and a dozen other FreeDesktop.org technologies. Maemo was not created with off-the-shelf parts. Nokia put an amazing amount of time into those parts to get them where they needed them and the whole open source community has reaped the benefits.


Nokia's Maemo department


"Maemo Software" ;)


Maemo wouldn't exist in its current form without Nokia's support (it wouldn't exist without the community's support either of course).


Make that: "Maemo wouldn't exist." Maemo is a Nokia product and without Nokia, Nokia products don't exist (saying it wouldn't exist in its current form without them is like saying Mac OS X wouldn't without Apple ;))<


. . . despite Maemo devices not selling well.


Compared to what exactly? You keep making this assertion but I honestly don't think you're getting Maemo's position within Nokia's lineup. As far as I've been able to divine, the tablets are selling quite a bit better than Nokia planned (10x the initial estimate for the 770 from what I've heard) and Nokia's set to really begin pushing the platform with this generation. All this "aren't selling well" talk is silly both because it's highly subjective. Nokia's clearly happy, we're happing, so what's the problem?

(Been writting this post for the past four hours so appologies if it's a bit disjointed.)

[ARJWright]

GA, you do the long-compose posts too, hehehe...

Honestly, I can see Maemo being my phone/mobile OS in the near future. Even with Freemantle, I just don't really see much in the way of anything except webOS that excites me. Go figure, I'm becoming an OSS guy.

Where's texrat with his "hehehe" - isn't it time for one of those and a skillfully placed statement along the lines of "all the pieces for what Nokia is doing is already there."

These are exciting times :D

[vvaz]

Forgive me for seeming obvious, but doesn't that look an awful lot like a KDE 4.2 desktop?? Or at the very least the widgets?


More like one of Qt experiments. Below screenshot was linked.

Although whole idea sounds (and looks) very, very similar to "social desktop" announced by KDE developers:

http://dot.kde.org/2009/05/01/social-desktop-starts-arrive

I only wonder which way ideas are flowing KDE -> Qt/Nokia or the other way :)

[YoDude]

At first when I saw statements like "ad widgets would not be user removable or customizable" I could not come to terms with one of the community profiting from using community developed FOSS as a billboard to sell products to others in the very same community.
Granted that one member may be responsible for creating the community in the first place.

Then I realized (while daydreaming during a work related meeting) that none of this has been verified yet. Even if it was all true and the intent is to distribute software to more people and and as a result promote safe systems that I feel comfortable using, why not?

After all, isn't that what Google did? ...and everyone knows that their ad content is not user removable or their web apps customizable. ;)

***

Still, I wish I found out via Nokia first. Perhaps these "leaks" should be made through this forum somehow. :p

[daperl]

If a particular phone was ad-supported, then it makes sense that the ad widgets would be proprietary and non-removable, because otherwise who would pay for the hardware? Advertisers aren't going to sign up to a widget that the user can remove, and without advertisers the hardware couldn't be ad-subsidised.

Sorry, I only see two possibilities here:

Either this will be hacked or worked around. [See Apple]

or

This hardware will be so locked down that most of us wouldn't touch it with a ten foot (meter) pole. [See Archos]

If people don't want an ad-subsidised phone they would buy the non-ad version instead.Because of what I said above, this wouldn't be a different "version" of a device, this would be a completely different product. Regardless, it would most likely be from a company that I wouldn't be buying from.

[YoDude]

Sorry, I only see two possibilities here:

Either this will be hacked or worked around. [See Apple]

or

This hardware will be so locked down that most of us wouldn't touch it with a ten foot (meter) pole. [See Archos]

Because of what I said above, this wouldn't be a different "version" of a device, this would be a completely different product. Regardless, it would most likely be from a company that I wouldn't be buying from.


Shhhh...

I'm thinkin' the Nokia brand will be to hard to resist now that they have built a loyal community around Maemo... so I pick door #1. :)

Time to grab that hackmyharmattan.com domain while it is still available. :D

[jandmdickerson]

Isn't there ethical issues about location based advertisement (I am not talking about legal). Something that tracks your location and suggest things based on your purchase history or demographics. Just because we can clone a hamster/dog hybrd doesn't mean we should. Nokia seems to be proud of its social contributions, "greener planet" stuff, then why start down this dark path. I can only imagine what AT&T wireless would do with this. Atleast if I get a commercial on my cable tv programming I can fast forward through it or switch channels, its not constantly taking up my screen space and reminding me its time to buy more beer.

[fms]

Isn't there ethical issues about location based advertisement (I am not talking about legal). Something that tracks your location and suggest things based on your purchase history or demographics.
As long as it suggests these things to you alone and not to a bunch of corporate suits high in the clouds, why is there an ethical issue?

Just because we can clone a hamster/dog hybrd doesn't mean we should.
You mean we shouldn't? No way... Where is fun in that? :)

Nokia seems to be proud of its social contributions, "greener planet" stuff, then why start down this dark path.
This is called "buzzword compliance". As long as both "greener planet" and "location based advertising" are current buzzwords, there is no logical conflict here in following both.

I can only imagine what AT&T wireless would do with this. Atleast if I get a commercial on my cable tv programming I can fast forward through it or switch channels, its not constantly taking up my screen space and reminding me its time to buy more beer.
Morale: Do not try being a miser, buy a real, unsubsidized device. At the end of the day, you will pay about the same or less and avoid that terrible feeling of being sodomized by a corporate entity.

[benny1967]

Community developed?

they never claimed the UI would be community developed, did they?

i think it's a reasonable thing to do in this market: build upon a strong, free software platform, but put something on top that sets you apart from the others that use the same platform as a base.



what's much more interesting, though:

imagine there really is a subsidized version that has a place for ads hardwired to the homescreen. what does this mean for the future of alternatives like debian and mer on maemo devices?
wouldn't it mean that they'd need to block any possibility to boot into an alternate OS or else consumers would simply avoid having the ad by using mer instead of maemo?

this would be more annoying than the ad itself, because it might lead to a design decision that affects both the subsidized and the non-subsidized variants.

[attila77]

what does this mean for the future of alternatives like debian and mer on maemo devices?
wouldn't it mean that they'd need to block any possibility to boot into an alternate OS or else consumers would simply avoid having the ad by using mer instead of maemo?

this would be more annoying than the ad itself, because it might lead to a design decision that affects both the subsidized and the non-subsidized variants.

That's called 'pulling an Archos' in short :D I just hope the amount of effort invested and possibilities of a fairly open OS make it clear to Nokia big people doing something like that would be shooting their whole tablet division in the foot with a mighty big caliber weapon.

[YoDude]

...what's much more interesting, though:

imagine there really is a subsidized version that has a place for ads hardwired to the homescreen. what does this mean for the future of alternatives like debian and mer on maemo devices?
wouldn't it mean that they'd need to block any possibility to boot into an alternate OS or else consumers would simply avoid having the ad by using mer instead of maemo?

this would be more annoying than the ad itself, because it might lead to a design decision that affects both the subsidized and the non-subsidized variants.

That's^ where I was going when I first asked the rhetorical... Is this what we are all doing here?

From what I have seen of the North American market, Carriers would insist that customers couldn't easily boot into an alternate OS before they "jumped on board".

[tso]

i think it's a reasonable thing to do in this market: build upon a strong, free software platform, but put something on top that sets you apart from the others that use the same platform as a base.
Also known as:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentiation_(economics)

And that's what brought us things like a buggy network manager that only nokia can fix, as its closed source, and other pesky bits...

Sometimes i can sense what made RMS go do what he did...

[SD69]

they never claimed the UI would be community developed, did they?
And the UI for Maemo 5 indeed is not community developed. The issue (on my mind) is to what extent it reflects Diablo UI and/or community input, which we will only know upon release. I am prepared to be disappointed and hope to be pleasantly surprised.

imagine there really is a subsidized version that has a place for ads hardwired to the homescreen.
wouldn't it mean that they'd need to block any possibility to boot into an alternate OS or else consumers would simply avoid having the ad by using mer instead of maemo?

this would be more annoying than the ad itself, because it might lead to a design decision that affects both the subsidized and the non-subsidized variants.Yes, but not to say that some smart people can't jail break it. Of course, subsidized devices (which most of us hate) will expand the range of Maemo 5 devices. (afaik, Maemo 5 won't be openly licensed for the asking on non-Nokia devices so (even though it may be open as in hackable, etc.) there would otherwise be a bit of a hardware lock to Maemo devices).

I'm not following though how that necessitates a design decision that affects the non-subsidized version.

[lcuk]

http://liqbase.net/liq.20090522_123535.lib.scr.png

you dont need to wait for harmattan to get a funky cool new adverts ;)

[benny1967]

I'm not following though how that necessitates a design decision that affects the non-subsidized version.

the design decision could be to change the startup process in a way that provides no more hooks for a boot menu. for example. or use some of the nice and well-known "no open driver"-tricks that prevent you from running another OS...

if they do this, i guess it wouldn't be worth the effort to change these parts of maemo for the non-subsidized devices. - the number of people who care about being able to run alternate OSs is just too small, isn't it?

it's just a thought, though, something that could happen. (if this ad-based thing is true at all...) i'm not saying they'd need to do it and there'd be no other way.

[attila77]

if they do this, i guess it wouldn't be worth the effort to change these parts of maemo for the non-subsidized devices. - the number of people who care about being able to run alternate OSs is just too small, isn't it?

Well, I do know of at least one example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linksys_WRT54G_series#WRT54GL)

[jandmdickerson]

Well I will put a peice of paper taped over one quarter of my screen (simulating a worthless "by more beer" advertisment) and use my tablet a few days to see if this really poses any inconvenience....:rolleyes:

[lcuk]

omg, i should talk to danish bacon!

I cannot personally think of a better sponsor :p

[gerbick]

Seriously, are you all up in arms about a small area of the screen being used for ads?

If it's done right, it'll keep the costs low and not be in the way.

[attila77]

Seriously, are you all up in arms about a small area of the screen being used for ads?

If it's done right, it'll keep the costs low and not be in the way.

Two things. First, it's a question of choice - do I get to choose between an ad-supported device and a nonsubsidized one ? Second, it would be a bit of a cheat to the developers, as it was unclear upfront what the business model is. If I invest my time and enthusiasm in an Open platform, I want to be told - okay, you can develop stuff that makes us great, but in the end we'll slap an advert on top of it and make a buck off of it without you making a penny (it would be like google inserting an ad on top a web page you found on google but not paying to the owner of the site). If I agree for fame and publicity, cool, if I don't, I can always do something else in my spare time.

[gerbick]

Then touting it's openness was wrong to begin with.

And it seems like Maemo is Nokia's dip into open source. They're going to get more things wrong than right. This doesn't bother me because you're subjected to advertising even on this site and it doesn't really bother me.

[sjgadsby]

...you're subjected to advertising even on this site...

Not anymore. Nokia made the ads go away.

[qole]

Not anymore. Nokia made the ads go away.

Thank goodness, yes, they did!

http://static.maemo.org/style_maemo2009/img/banner-fn.jpg (http://www.forum.nokia.com/)


Just ignore that box above there. It isn't really there.

[YoDude]

Thank goodness, yes, they did!

http://static.maemo.org/style_maemo2009/img/banner-fn.jpg (http://www.forum.nokia.com/)


Just ignore that box above there. It isn't really there.


maemo.org has one on Forum.Nokia.com too!

When you click on it it it will take you to one of >>THESE << (http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/4-x/setting_up_usb_networking/)though. :eek:




:D

[GeneralAntilles]

Thank goodness, yes, they did!


Forum Nokia is a sister site of maemo.org that makes up the third part of the Maemo spectrum. Users go to maemo.nokia.com, community types go to maemo.org, and developers (primarily commercial) go to Maemo @ Forum Nokia. This isn't advertising (what, exactly, are they selling?).

[gerbick]

Not anymore. Nokia made the ads go away.

And you don't think that if Nokia continues to lose money hand over fist they'd not introduce advertising to yet another loss leader?

Seriously. An ad isn't the end of the world.

[gerbick]

Forum Nokia is a sister site of maemo.org that makes up the third part of the Maemo spectrum. Users go to maemo.nokia.com, community types go to maemo.org, and developers (primarily commercial) go to Maemo @ Forum Nokia. This isn't advertising (what, exactly, are they selling?).

It's called branding. Any halfwit can understand that mindshare is the goal because that leads to familiarity and thus, purchases.

The very same as advertising. Now, when will advertising get dropped from the internettabletalk.com front page? Where were these arguments over advertising on ITT?

You lot seem to have enough faith in Nokia to support them continuously into Harmattan, then have faith it'll be done correctly.

[YoDude]

Forum Nokia is a sister site of maemo.org that makes up the third part of the Maemo spectrum. Users go to maemo.nokia.com, community types go to maemo.org, and developers (primarily commercial) go to Maemo @ Forum Nokia. This isn't advertising (what, exactly, are they selling?).

Relax fella. There is no "tongue in cheek" smiley icon... and if there was, qole might think I was trying to get perverted or suttin'...

...besides, categorizing readers for what ever reason usually ends up biting the author, editor, or publisher in the buttocks. :)


I suppose for good or ill, in the end... everything is advertising. :cool:

[GeneralAntilles]

Relax fella. There is no "tongue in cheek" smiley icon... and if there was, qole might think I was trying to get perverted or suttin'...


Any of: ;), :p or :D would've been appropriate, "fella".


...besides, categorizing readers for what ever reason usually ends up biting the author, editor, or publisher in the buttocks. :)


Er? Who's categorizing anybody? Developer-centric content will be on one site, user-centric content will be on another, and community-centric stuff will be on maemo.org. The content is categorized, not the users.

[GeneralAntilles]

Now, when will advertising get dropped from the internettabletalk.com front page?

Internet Tablet Talk has been dropped, it's now Talk. The "front page" you're looking for is talk.maemo.org (http://talk.maemo.org/).

[YoDude]

It's called branding. Any halfwit can understand that mindshare is the goal because that leads to familiarity... <big ol' snip>...

I'm a half wit and I resemble that remark dude! :p

If by "mindshare" (qu'est-ce que freakin' se?) you mean what all the rest of us halfwits think about Nokia in the future?

That is already beginning to change in North America... every time someone sees a tablet.

***

I would think changing the mind set of future customers would be easier when current customers haven't fully identified with what you currently do.

That is I believe, what the "Fightin' Fish of Finland" intended to accomplish in the first place.

I believe history has shown us that in the future, the kids of an NIT user won't think Nokia only makes phones. :)

Years ago Harley-Davidson had a print ad that just showed what appeared to be at fist glance as a stock photo of a baby in crib. Under the picture the only words where "When did it start for you?"

On closer inspection I noticed that the baby's crib sheets had little H-D logos (http://www.babybeddingtown.com/babies-category-192.htm) all over them.

Later on I realized that WalMart (http://www.walmart.com/) pro'ly sold millions of sets of those exact same crib sheets....


nunna, nunna, nunna...

[YoDude]

Any of: ;), :p or :D would've been appropriate, "fella".



Er? Who's categorizing anybody? Developer-centric content will be on one site, user-centric content will be on another, and community-centric stuff will be on maemo.org. The content is categorized, not the users.

Whatever dude...

The topic isn't what works for you, remember?

[gerbick]

Internet Tablet Talk has been dropped, it's now Talk. The "front page" you're looking for is talk.maemo.org (http://talk.maemo.org/).

Looks rather active (http://gerbick.com/images/itt_still_active.gif) to me. In fact, I go there first because it's easier to parse.

And you bypassed my real question... where were the advertisement hatred then? Hmmm?

[gerbick]

I'm a half wit and I resemble that remark dude! :p
HAHAH! I wouldn't have said it unless it applied to me too!

If by "mindshare" (qu'est-ce que freakin' se?) you mean what all the rest of us halfwits think about Nokia in the future?

That is already beginning to change in North America... every time someone sees a tablet.
I'll kindly have to disagree with you here. I think that the tablets and Nokia's branding in the US is starting to slip even more. Mind you, while in China or Europe, Nokia is the brand. In America... it's being relegated to a footnote simply because the world got the N-Series while we didn't. And this is before the advent of buying unlocked was popular - which, now you'd have to be a truly savvy consumer to do so.

And to me, that means the people lesser than us halfwits need not attempt to buy unlocked. It requires computers and knowing stuff!

nunna, nunna, nunna...
Either the Twilight Zone or Batman... but for some reason, I got both stuck in my head! Darn you!

[YoDude]

I had a dang 2 hour composition that I just lost (using a spastic key combination that I couldn't reproduce if ya paid me real money) in total agreement with what you just said. :o

I was impressed with how fast iPhone sold 1 million units then 10 million units. The frequency was measured in month's...

Then I recently saw a video about Nokia stress tests. (link added later)

It it, they said Nokia produced 1 million units a day! :eek:

I'm thinkin'...
All Nokia has to do is be the next best thing in North America once to dominate a future world market for hand held devices. If what the halfwits in America are all using says Nokia on it, "it" would matriculate to other Nokia users world wide rather quickly.

Motorola learned that any other company would need to be the next best thing over and over again in North America in order to capitalize on a future world market.

I'm also thinkin' that the next battle in North America is between Palm and Apple and there will be blood... The aftermath could also take down at least one service provider. :eek:

Nokia is wise to take it slow. I still have hope that if Nokia does get into bed with a service provider, it would be with a totally new one in North America. One that doesn't have to use past business models in order to compete with the status quo.

Who knows? leaks are often calculated.

[qole]

Forum Nokia is a sister site of maemo.org that makes up the third part of the Maemo spectrum. Users go to maemo.nokia.com, community types go to maemo.org, and developers (primarily commercial) go to Maemo @ Forum Nokia. This isn't advertising (what, exactly, are they selling?).

Thank you, as always, for your helpful input.

Internet Tablet Talk has been dropped, it's now Talk. The "front page" you're looking for is talk.maemo.org (http://talk.maemo.org/).

No. For once, you're wrong (http://www.internettablettalk.com/). Not only does it still exist, RogerS has recently started posting blog entries there again.

It feels really weird correcting you on some trivial point. Like the universe has just gone bizarro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarro_World#Concept) or something.

[GeneralAntilles]

Thank you, as always, for your helpful input.


No, thank you, as always, for your helpful sarcasm.


No. For once, you're wrong (http://www.internettablettalk.com/). Not only does it still exist, RogerS has recently started posting blog entries there again.


Sorry, but you're confused. :)

It exists only in a state of limbo until a new blog system is set up either on maemo.org-proper or the forums. internettablettalk.com has become talk.maemo.org. For the time being, RogerS's stuff is syndicated to the forums.


It feels really weird correcting you on some trivial point. Like the universe has just gone bizarro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarro_World#Concept) or something.

It feels weird because you're not correcting anything.

[YoDude]

Oh, and thank you GA for showing me how to increase my post count with out contributing to the topic of a thread...

<Not sarcastic or tongue in cheek>

In any other forum popping into a thread to post minor or non-existent corrections without adding any substance to that thread is called "thread crapping (http://boards.theforce.net/communications/b10006/23309681)"

"Thread Crapping" occurs when a person comes into a thread and posts something contrary to the spirit/intent of the thread, often derailing the discussion or turning it into an argument....

Here apparently, as long as the "crap" is somehow related to maemo.org, it is acceptable and will increase your karma.

BTW, that crap you posted a while back about my use of icons is wrong (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=289340&postcount=64).

If you look back at unedited post #59, the one I think you were referring to, you will plainly see the :D icon.

***
And now for my thread crap...

It is a beautiful May day outside in the real world. I truly hope everyone makes some time to enjoy it. :)

[attila77]

It feels really weird correcting you on some trivial point. Like the universe has just gone bizarro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarro_World#Concept) or something.

Yes, quite bizarre, I know the feeling (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=288245&highlight=landmass#post288245) :D

[GeneralAntilles]

In any other forum popping into a thread to post minor or non-existent corrections without adding any substance to that thread is called "thread crapping (http://boards.theforce.net/communications/b10006/23309681)"


Let's back up a few steps here because I believe there's been a rather significant misunderstanding.

So, to summarize:

gerbick made a comment (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=289272&postcount=56) about the advertising on Talk. To which sjgadsby responded (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=289282&postcount=57) that Nokia's financing of Talk means the advertising has been removed.

Then qole proceded to make (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=289317&postcount=58) what I perceive to be a snide remark about the Forum Nokia link on the site being advertising. This I assumed partially because of the lack of any indication of humor and partially because of his historical attitude towards subjects like these. Because I disagree with his view on the Forum Nokia banner, I responded (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=289334&postcount=60) explaining why I didn't believe it was advertising (advertising with qole's negative connotation—clearly it's advertising, but the good kind).

Here's where things fall apart, you seem to think (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=289338&postcount=63) I'm responding to your post (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=289330&postcount=59) following qole's. Which is confirmed by this:


If you look back at unedited post #59, the one I think you were referring to, you will plainly see the :D icon.


Unfortunately I wasn't referring to your post, of course, since I generally quote posts that I'm responding to (as it helps avoid the sort of confusion we're experiencing here), but qole's.

As for the thread crapping, I was addressing a point brought up by gerbick and that was discussed by sjgadsby, qole, and yourself before I came in. I'm not sure how I'm the thread-crapper here.

So, please, drop the irrationality and stop letting your personal issues against me get in the way of civilized discussion. Thanks!

[GeneralAntilles]

Yes, quite bizarre, I know the feeling (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=288245&highlight=landmass#post288245) :D

Hey, if you want to make me respond, I'll respond (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=289485&postcount=54).

[gerbick]

So, to summarize:

gerbick made a comment (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=289272&postcount=56) about the advertising on Talk. To which sjgadsby responded (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=289282&postcount=57) that Nokia's financing of Talk means the advertising has been removed.
Quite the revisionist way to see things.

I commented on how ITT, which is still active - I supplied a screenshot, I can supply another since you ignored the first one - and there were advertisements there. Which were all throughout the whole ITT site.

Now, you may argue - knowing you, you shall - that since the move from ITT to talk.maemo.org, the advertisements are singular... again, I pointed out that branding is the same as advertising since they both are fundamentally going after mindshare and thus, sales.

And I finished with "Where was the advertisement hatred back then?" (paraphrase) and you've yet to respond.

So to summarize correctly... advertisements still exist on ITT, despite your continuing commentary as "talk.maemo.org is where you should go", I can still go to ITT and see what's new there since it's still connected and that site still has advertisements and this banter about ads in the OS are rather hypocritical since the site had plenty of ads and you seemingly can't answer straight questions - see above.

Despite my total dislike of repeating anything to anybody over the age of my 7 year old son, I don't expect an answer from you that's not laced with vitriol, sarcasm and other easily disliked and unnecessary tones from a "moderator" and volunteer.

Thanks for your hard work that you do while here dude. But your demeanor needs a lot of work.

No need to reply to me. I've said my fill.

Toodles.

[Aisu]

Why are we acting liking *****es?

Sheesh...

BUT, I digress... I want to know what the hell Freemantle looks like! Harmattan looks completely impractical for a touchscreen, anyways... (At least in those screen shots.)

[sjgadsby]

I commented on how ITT, which is still active...

The old main page does indeed still exist, but presumably only because Reggie hasn't finished redirecting every bit of the old domain to the new. The page is something of a dead man walking, and because of that, I believe some folks--including GeneralAntilles--have written it off already.

...I pointed out that branding is the same as advertising since they both are fundamentally going after mindshare and thus, sales.

Very true, though there's a bit of a difference between two related sites displaying reciprocal links and a site flashing banner ads for acai berries.

And I finished with "Where was the advertisement hatred back then?"

The complaints, while present, were certainly milder*, but again, I believe there's a degree of difference between easily blockable banner ads on an otherwise free web site run by one enthusiast and theoretically non-removable ads on a device from a huge, global corporation, especially if that device might additionally demand both upfront purchase, and ongoing service, costs.

It's like the difference between the perfectly reasonable ads that support free, over the air broadcasts and a crazy idea like ads on pay cable/satellite channels. People would rise up against the later in an inst...

Aww, nuts.


* Though thanks were certainly given when they were even partially removed (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=11842).

[GeneralAntilles]

No need to reply to me. I've said my fill.


Ah, excellent! Then I can save a lot of time trying to respond to your confused post.

[gerbick]

Ah, excellent! Then I can save a lot of time trying to respond to your confused post.

I expected more. Oh well... back to your cave.

[Texrat]

Quite frankly, the grip network operators have over American phone hardware is the fault of Americans themselves. Americans who are worried about network operators crippling hardware should put their money where their mouth is instead of playing the helpless victim.

The finger-pointing game is fun but it goes quickly circular. The FCC is to blame for allowing the carrier anticompetiveness to continue. The federal leadership is to blame for allowing the FCC to do so. The American voters are to blame for voting in that leadership. Etc etc etc.

Personally I blame LG, Samsung and Motorola. Nokia made a big, serious effort to turn the US market on its head and those 3, rather than recognizing the longterm benefit and joining in, chose to go for the quick bucks and take the market share Nokia "gave up".

We see where that got Moto.

[fms]

The finger-pointing game is fun but it goes quickly circular. The FCC is to blame for allowing the carrier anticompetiveness to continue. The federal leadership is to blame for allowing the FCC to do so. The American voters are to blame for voting in that leadership. Etc etc etc
Not really. The blaming game stops at the consumers getting crippled subsidized handsets (a committing themselves to contracts) instead of just buying hardware onl their own. The subsidized model works relatively well with generic phones used "just to call people" but it utterly fails smartphone users, narrowing their choice of options to 2-3 [crippled] models offered by their network operator.

[YoDude]

Not really. The blaming game stops at the consumers getting crippled subsidized handsets (a committing themselves to contracts) instead of just buying hardware onl their own. The subsidized model works relatively well with generic phones used "just to call people" but it utterly fails smartphone users, narrowing their choice of options to 2-3 [crippled] models offered by their network operator.

Unfortunately the American markets are not as densely populated as European or Asian markets. On top of that we use 3 totally different network technologies that don't always overlap. Add to that equation the fact that two of the network technologies are proprietary and the usage rights to one of these technologies is controlled by a single handset manufacturer.

In many instances geography determines what handset is used and customer choice is rather limited.

...besides, the horse is out of the barn already.

The change to an un-subsidized phone for some would require an additional $400 up front...

A $200 Early Termination Fee plus a $200 dollar premium for the equipment itself.

[Texrat]

Not really. The blaming game stops at the consumers getting crippled subsidized handsets (a committing themselves to contracts) instead of just buying hardware onl their own. The subsidized model works relatively well with generic phones used "just to call people" but it utterly fails smartphone users, narrowing their choice of options to 2-3 [crippled] models offered by their network operator.

I stand by my assessment. Nokia tried to change the game and other manufacturers torpedoed the effort... despite the fact that they would have benefitted in the long run. Nokia's move was the last best chance to change the model unless US lawmakers finally do their jobs.

As long as the subsidized model dominates in the US, many buyers will opt for the "free" or cheap phone. It's seen as buying on credit with no apparent interest-- although we all know the cost is ultimately higher.

[fms]

Unfortunately the American markets are not as densely populated as European or Asian markets.
Really? Check this table:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933563.html

It indicates that approximately 86% (262,700,000) of the US population had cell phones in 2008. Remove a few people having more than one phone, and you still get a sizable number.

On top of that we use 3 totally different network technologies that don't always overlap.
You have got GSM in several bands (usually covered by a multi-band GSM phone) and CDMA (that can be largely ignored).

Add to that equation the fact that two of the network technologies are proprietary and the usage rights to one of these technologies is controlled by a single handset manufacturer.
The standard answer here is "screw them". You have got several nationwide GSM networks, use them, ignore proprietary stuff, and it will eventually die off.

The change to an un-subsidized phone for some would require an additional $400 up front... A $200 Early Termination Fee plus a $200 dollar premium for the equipment itself.
Well, what can I say? Either wait until the end of your contract or use any loophole you can find with Google.

[gerbick]

Really? Check this table:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0933563.html

It indicates that approximately 86% (262,700,000) of the US population had cell phones in 2008. Remove a few people having more than one phone, and you still get a sizable number.
I think he meant that there is a lot more room/space between the people in the US versus other countries. We're not as tightly packed together in the US as say... Britain or Hong Kong.

[Texrat]

You have got GSM in several bands (usually covered by a multi-band GSM phone) and CDMA (that can be largely ignored).

Largely ignored???

The largest provider, Verizon, runs on CDMA.

The standard answer here is "screw them". You have got several nationwide GSM networks, use them, ignore proprietary stuff, and it will eventually die off.

Sounds great in theory, but ignores far too many inertial factors. If it was that simple it would have happened long ago... and Nokia would not have needed cooperation from Moto and the rest when the big US provider-cracking attempt was made.

[benny1967]

It indicates that approximately 86% (262,700,000) of the US population had cell phones in 2008. Remove a few people having more than one phone, and you still get a sizable number.

... even more OT: i wasn't aware of these figures. in austria (pop.: 8,316,487), there are ~10 million SIM cards in active use, which means a rate of over 120%.

i hadn't expected the gap to be so significant between the USA and a small european country.

[attila77]

... even more OT: i wasn't aware of these figures. in austria (pop.: 8,316,487), there are ~10 million SIM cards in active use, which means a rate of over 120%.

i hadn't expected the gap to be so significant between the USA and a small european country.

There are even odder cases if look at smaller countries - Montenegro (pop: 650,000) boasts a 185% (http://www.agentel.cg.yu/izvjestaji/2008/decembar_2008.pdf) rate.

[YoDude]

I think he meant that there is a lot more room/space between the people in the US versus other countries. We're not as tightly packed together in the US as say... Britain or Hong Kong.

Yup... and if you find a chart that shows the mean distance between subscriber and cell tower, you may see that the number is quite large in these parts as well.

***

The standard answer here is "screw them". You have got several nationwide GSM networks, use them, ignore proprietary stuff, and it will eventually die off.

The change to an un-subsidized phone for some would require an additional $400 up front... A $200 Early Termination Fee plus a $200 dollar premium for the equipment itself.
Well, what can I say? Either wait until the end of your contract or use any loophole you can find with Google.



You may be right fms, let the millions of iDEN and proprietary CDMA customers eat cake. :rolleyes:

For the record... it doesn't bother me a dang bit. My employer/client has provided me with unlimited service and new handsets whenever I need them for the past 8 years. Any future employment contracts I sign will have the same provisions.

...but many millions of subscribers live pay check to pay check.

BTW, fms I find your "screw them" philosophy hard to relate to. Can you provide any examples of how this attitude has worked out for you or others in the past. :)

[fms]

I think he meant that there is a lot more room/space between the people in the US versus other countries. We're not as tightly packed together in the US as say... Britain or Hong Kong.
Russia. All GSM. No subsidies, no contracts, 18% VAT. Mostly pay-as-you-go calling. And it still ends up cheaper than in US.

[Peter@Maemo Marketing]

Silence from both peter@maemomarketing and Ragnar, proves that this in fact is remotely true..... or is it not?

Wouldn't read too much into me not responding. In general, I don't comment on speculation of future devices.

[fms]

BTW, fms I find your "screw them" philosophy hard to relate to. Can you provide any examples of how this attitude has worked out for you or others in the past. :)
Attitude worked beautifully for me over the past years. I do not have to deal with the Phone Company, because I have no DSL. I do not have to deal with the Cable Company, because I have no cable. I do not have to pay monthly fees to my Cell Service Provider, because I only pay for minutes/megabytes used and that comes to <$20/month. My web browser shows clean web pages (AdBlock+) and I avoid watching TV if I can (not making a cult of this though). If I do watch TV, there is a Chinese-made recorder letting me skip through ads.

Believe me, locking all these things out of your life makes perfect sense.

[YoDude]

Attitude worked beautifully for me over the past years. I do not have to deal with the Phone Company, because I have no DSL. I do not have to deal with the Cable Company, because I have no cable. I do not have to pay monthly fees to my Cell Service Provider, because I only pay for minutes/megabytes used and that comes to <$20/month. My web browser shows clean web pages (AdBlock+) and I avoid watching TV if I can (not making a cult of this though). If I do watch TV, there is a Chinese-made recorder letting me skip through ads.

Believe me, locking all these things out of your life makes perfect sense.

Well good for you...:)

To many, you live a life of luxury that few can realistically afford...

It is kind of like that age old dilemma; What came first, the liquor store or the run down neighborhood?

...and sort of back on topic. How come all that seems to be advertised in rundown neighborhoods is liquor?

[fms]

To many, you live a life of luxury that few can realistically afford...
Which of the above things can't you afford, aside maybe from having to have at least some Net connection (DSL or cable)?

[YoDude]

Which of the above things can't you afford, aside maybe from having to have at least some Net connection (DSL or cable)?

OK... you win. This thread is now all about you and your point of view. Have fun. :)

[Laughing Man]

Russia. All GSM. No subsidies, no contracts, 18% VAT. Mostly pay-as-you-go calling. And it still ends up cheaper than in US.

I know this is a dated thread but. part of the problem is also just general concepts and ideas of how to run a country and how much influence the government should have.

I suspect for countries that are more socialist, it's more acceptable for the government to push telcos around. While if the same is done in the USA (if not carefully) tons of lawsuits are filed and advocacy groups are created. And the US being half foot in socialist, half foot in capitalist gets screwed on both halfs without the benefits of both.

[fms]

I know this is a dated thread but. part of the problem is also just general concepts and ideas of how to run a country and how much influence the government should have.
This has nothing to do with how country is run. And, believe me, there is nothing "socialist" about Russia nowadays...

[Jason404]

And the US being half foot in socialist, half foot in capitalist gets screwed on both halfs without the benefits of both.

Halves?? The US economy is more corporatist capitalist than any other country. Who were you comparing to? Historical fascist states?

/politics.. sorry.

[allnameswereout]

What I find striking is the illogic in lack of 3G standard in USA. Always different frequencies, and then the loud complaints about one or more not supported. Geez, get your standards straight!

Mabe it makes sense to read into different definitions of socialism. The compare chart here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democratic#Ideology) I found pretty useful.

Furthermore, Lord Raiden's thread "One likely reason why our cell rates will never improve." (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32055) bears a similar discussion as the one held in the last couple of posts in this thread.

[Laughing Man]

Halves?? The US economy is more corporatist capitalist than any other country. Who were you comparing to? Historical fascist states?

/politics.. sorry.

When I say socialist I don't mean like Italy during WW2. I mean modern socialist like how some countries in Europe are socialist. Maybe my use of the term was to broad. But the link allnameswereout pointed out will explain for me. As you can see while indeed the US is still more corporatist capitalist than any other country, it's also socialist. Hence my it's half foot in one, half foot in the other.

Thank you allnameswereout.

[mgtman]

Does anybody have any news concerning whether the N900 wil be able to upgrade to Harmattan??

[GeneralAntilles]

Does anybody have any news concerning whether the N900 wil be able to upgrade to Harmattan??

No. I doubt whether Nokia's even sure about that at this point.

[anidel]

No. I doubt whether Nokia's even sure about that at this point.

Is the next device multi-touch enabled?

The n900 can never have that support, how would Nokia deal with this?

Multi-touch brings in new ways of handling the content on the screen, and such ways cannot be backported to the N900.

I believe the N900 won't be able to run Harmattan.
But I strongly believe the community will be asked to step in again.

Anidel

[GeneralAntilles]

Is the next device multi-touch enabled?


This is a rumor I keep seeing pop up based on multitouch capability in Qt 4.6. Nobody outside of Nokia can answer this question, though. :)


The n900 can never have that support, how would Nokia deal with this?


Look at the iPhone or the G1, is multitouch really a make-or-break proposition there?


I believe the N900 won't be able to run Harmattan.


I disagree, but we'll just have to wait and see.

[vvaz]

This is a rumor I keep seeing pop up based on multitouch capability in Qt 4.6. Nobody outside of Nokia can answer this question, though. :)


Troll^WQt Software guys have working implementation of multitouch for Qt. Problem at the moment lies not in Qt but in underlying platform. AFAIU implementation worked on Windows but not on Linux and they were cooperating with kernel people on that.

General Qt philosophy is to publish cross-platform-working features. If they will be able to push working multitouch feature on all platforms it will be in 4.6. If not - we will wait for 4.7. Just my opinion.

[mgtman]

Well, computers aren´t "O.S. locked" for quite a long time now. O.S. upgrading ability is something very important, at least for me, to consider the N900 a real mobile computer.

[DaveP1]

Is the next device multi-touch enabled?

The n900 can never have that support, how would Nokia deal with this?

Multi-touch brings in new ways of handling the content on the screen, and such ways cannot be backported to the N900.

I believe the N900 won't be able to run Harmattan.
But I strongly believe the community will be asked to step in again.

Anidel

I would tend to agree. I don't think Nokia is where it wants to be with regard to high-end phones and tablets. I think multi-touch is a likely direction to better compete with other phones and enhanced multimedia is another possible direction to better compete with MIDs and PMPs. Then there's 4G, USB3, not to mention advances in CPUs, GPUs, RAM, SSD, etc.

I suspect that the N9x0 will parallel the N8x0. We will see an enhanced N910 sometime next year that still runs Maemo 5. We will then see a new N1000 in 2011 that runs Maemo 6. Maemo 6 will require the hardware enhancements of the N1000 and will not be usable on the N9x0.

The community will then begin work on an open source version code named Merkin. :rolleyes:

[GodLikeCreature]

I suspect that the N9x0 will parallel the N8x0. We will see an enhanced N910 sometime next year that still runs Maemo 5. We will then see a new N1000 in 2011 that runs Maemo 6. Maemo 6 will require the hardware enhancements of the N1000 and will not be usable on the N9x0:

That sounds like a realistic move, if you ask me. I think the changes in Maemo 6 can be substantial if Nokia takes enough time to make it right. That would allow for an optimised version of Maemo5, while still allowing N900 users to feel like their devices are supported for a bit longer.

My hope is that once the first solid device with Maemo6 is out, that should mark the first step in a more stable direction. In other words, I think the N900 and Maemo5 are not where Nokia wants to be (certain important features missing, it still uses GTK+, etc).

However, Maemo 6 should then be the real foundation, one that really sets the stage for evolution in these devices more like PCs evolve, with perhaps no fundamental changes for years. That would allow for OS upgrades to be used for years.

In such environment, an old device would just suffer from less powerful hardware and perhaps some non-critical features missing. Just like PCs do.

Of course, that would not make buying another device such an important thing, and perhaps device sales would decrease, but then again, that´s where the industry is going. PC manufactures realised that selling devices is no longer a business that can bring them income as it used to, and the same will apply to mobile phones quickly.

Like some other posters already mentioned, Nokia should focus on the application store and things like that as their future strategy, not about the device sales, specially considering that in a close future I see the posibility of installing Maemo on any device, just like Linux can be installed on most PCs.

[nibbles]

http://phonewebz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/maemo-harmattan.jpg

http://phonewebz.com/maemo-harmattan-the-new-nokia-mobile-os.htm

interesting quote
"Another interesting widget is the ad widgets. This widgets is special and cannot be remove or customize by user. Nokia’s plan with this widget is make it context sensitive based on environment and behavioral data. GPS place you near a car shop? Well, enjoy your Ford ads."

[daperl]

http://phonewebz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/maemo-harmattan.jpg

http://phonewebz.com/maemo-harmattan-the-new-nokia-mobile-os.htm

interesting quote
"Another interesting widget is the ad widgets. This widgets is special and cannot be remove or customize by user. Nokia’s plan with this widget is make it context sensitive based on environment and behavioral data. GPS place you near a car shop? Well, enjoy your Ford ads."

I'll go out on an optimistic, naive limb here and say that this will only be true for locked and/or subsidized phones. If so, this could be the US carrier compliance Nokia needs to establish a better presence in places like America. It would sadden me if I'm wrong.