RX-51 Tablet picture released at Engadget

[joshv06]

http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/08/nokia-rx-51-tablet-captured-in-the-wild/

I don't know if this has been posted yet, just saw it today at engadget.

[Bundyo]

Well, they were discussed here before that... ;)

[JayOnThaBeat]

Whack 3-row keyboard.

As if the spacebar wasn't hard enough to hit before...

[zerojay]

Whack 3-row keyboard.

As if the spacebar wasn't hard enough to hit before...

Wrong. The spacebar was moved over to the right to make it far easier for you to hit with your right thumb than on the N810 and it's pretty clear it will do the job.

[JayOnThaBeat]

Wrong. The spacebar was moved over to the right to make it far easier for you to hit with your right thumb than on the N810 and it's pretty clear it will do the job.

That's a matter of preference.

"wrong." lol

///EDIT: nearly impossible with left thumb (as I am also a double thumbeded typer ;))

[ciroip]

Wrong. The spacebar was moved over to the right to make it far easier for you to hit with your right thumb than on the N810 and it's pretty clear it will do the job.

I remember Axel Meyer (moderately douche nokia designer) being proud of this spacebar position on the n97. If you ask me sound more like a marketing gimmick to make Nokia feel that the designing department is actually usefull ;) .
Probably it will not make all this difference in usability and will help the device to differentiate a bit on the market

[attila77]

Wrong. The spacebar was moved over to the right to make it far easier for you to hit with your right thumb than on the N810 and it's pretty clear it will do the job.

I could live with the space (although middle was better for my typing style as I used both thumbs on it).

Left side ctrl is atrocious, though, for the reasons johnkzin outlined.

A note about right side cursors, though... I know from my use pattern I use the DPAD with my left hand as I have the stylus in my right. There goes Midnight Commander speedy use :( I also used a slide-portrait mode in my ebook reader, where I used the DPAD to scroll content (far easier than the zoom keys)... that's gone as well, duh :(

EDIT: On the plus side, at least they increased the space between the lower end of top slider part and keyboard, so it's easier to press the buttons in the top row. The buttons also seem a bit larger, but that might be an optical illusion as the rover itself is smaller than the N810...

[Cadabena]

If it's now completely finger-orientated, having your right hand free for the stylus shouldn't be a problem. I really like the stealthy face design, if it's capacitive and multi-touch, I'm sold.

[zerojay]

Yeah, I guess it sucks for left-handed typers, but it's nice to have spacebar close enough to one thumb instead of too far away from BOTH thumbs as it is on the N810.

[twaelti]

Nice nice nice... the box contains an AV-cable :-)
The pics also confirm the dual-LED flash.
Power button and zoom keys seem to be in very similar places to N810
Stylus not found yet (bottom right perhaps?)
Is the stand functionality given by the "ring" around the camera module?

[Lord Raiden]

Oh, my gawds. I've so gotta get one of these for review when they become available. This thing looks incredible!! :D

[linuxeventually]

*annoyed*
I hope they release another model with different/better input layout. They made it more of a phone than a portable computer. I want more physical buttons not less. Also would like to see a dedicated tab button, pipe, etc. Plus getting rid of the dpad, meh. Now if they replaced it with an analog stick/nub(s), I'd be all for that. But as it is...I'm hoping that this will be like how the N800 was replaced with the N810, similar specs but different format. Though I can see why they did what they did. Now to wait for release, reviews and the ridiculous MSRP to be announced.

[benny1967]

i wonder how they'd put non-english keyboard layouts on this mini-mini-"keyboard".... probably the same way they did on the N97, hiding characters you need as often as "e" and "r" behind two-key-combinations :(

[ysss]

I guess this may be one of the trade-offs that Nokia has made to bring this product into mainstream. Exchanging a 4-row, terminal friendly keyboard with a... err... what's great about this design again?

[attila77]

If it's now completely finger-orientated, having your right hand free for the stylus shouldn't be a problem. I really like the stealthy face design, if it's capacitive and multi-touch, I'm sold.

It doesn't matter if it's finger orienged or not. I will want to use my RIGHT hand finger then (instead of right hand with stylus) which precludes simultaneous screen and cursor usage unless I become ambidextrous or serious finger gymnastics.

[branitar]

Lets hope. the keys are not as hard to press as on the N810. I always have to use a lot of force compared to, say, the HTC Touch Pro and with my wide thumbs I often accidently press two keys because of it.

[lma]

Exchanging a 4-row, terminal friendly keyboard with a... err... what's great about this design again?

I wouldn't go as far as calling the N810's keyboard "terminal friendly", but this is definitely a step too much in the wrong direction. With the stylus keyboard gone, command line use just isn't workable on this device. Very disappointing compared to almost every competitor's QWERTY phones, and it's not like Nokia don't know how to make a proper (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/images/e90table1.jpg) keyboard.

Here's hoping the RX-71 (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=27262) will be better. I'd love an OMAP3/Fremantle device but I can't see myself spending money on this one.

[pH5]

Nice nice nice... the box contains an AV-cable :-)

I wish they would include some HDMI/DVI compatible output instead of low-quality analog video-out. The possibility to connect to any computer monitor could turn the device instantly into a smallish desktop PC together with a proper USB/Bluetooth Mouse/Keyboard.

[tso]

these days, a flat screen tv is a monitor. Something thats deliciously roundabout when considering the 80's...

[SD69]

I hope they release another model with different/better input layout. They made it more of a phone than a portable computer. I want more physical buttons not less. Also would like to see a dedicated tab button, pipe, etc. Plus getting rid of the dpad, meh. Now if they replaced it with an analog stick/nub(s), I'd be all for that. Well, it's not as bad as we feared and could have had far less physical buttons in going for that new, modern sleek design look. We sort of guessed it was going to be a phone and that they were going to take away the dpad. But we still have directional keys, the zoom keys, and some others - lock key(?), fullscreen key(?), menu key(?). Not a bad result when compared with expectations a few months ago.

What is a dedicated tab button, pipe, etc? Is there another device which has that?

[lma]

What is a dedicated tab button, pipe, etc? Is there another device which has that?

The E90 (http://images.google.com/images?q=e90+keyboard&imgsz=l) for one.

[zerojay]

Let's not proclaim the end of the world just because some of our favorite command line characters aren't on the keyboard (which most of the public would never use anyway). I'm sure there's an easy way to input them. Just wait until Fremantle is released.

[SD69]

The E90 (http://images.google.com/images?q=e90+keyboard&imgsz=l) for one.I don't understand. Is it just tab button? What is meant by "pipe, etc..."?

http://www.google.com/search?q=E90+pipe+button&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[zerojay]

The pipe is this character here: |
It is often used in Linux to redirect output from one command to another.

[attila77]

Let's not proclaim the end of the world just because some of our favorite command line characters aren't on the keyboard (which most of the public would never use anyway). I'm sure there's an easy way to input them. Just wait until Fremantle is released.

As long as it's not "fixed in Harmattan"... :D

@SD69: pipe is |

[SD69]

The pipe is this character here: |
It is often used in Linux to redirect output from one command to another.Thanks. Why is it on E90 (a non-linux device)?

[zerojay]

I have no clue why it would be on the E90. Completeness?

[luca]

Thanks. Why is it on E90 (a non-linux device)?

Because | is used in various operating system (yes, even dos, I don't know about symbian) to pipe the output of a command as input to the next one.
Or you can use it as a column separator in ascii art (much better that an uppercase i).

[wert613]

Or you can use it as a column separator in ascii art (much better that an uppercase i).

I think this displays the awe-inspiring completeness of the E90, including provisions for ASCII artists.

[linuxeventually]

I guess if I keep it short, my subtle comments can be picked apart. haha.

The pipe key was just an example, I actually usually it fairly rarely. I do find Home and End to be rather useful (terminal). Non-English/Non-Roman-alphabet speaking people should be infuriated.

It was just the point of Nokia headed in the phone direction rather than mobile computer.

Perhaps they think UMPCs and eventually MIDs would corner the market and they likely want to push smart phones. I'm sure they see this as an opportunity to try Linux instead of Symbian to compete with Apple, Palm, etc.

I laugh at my friend's N97 and it's feeble touch-screen keyboard (T9 seriously?!) But at least it's better than the N95 (same friend has a couple versions of it).

I hope those of you that purchase this device will be elated.

As for me, I will not. I will not purchase another NIT until they get it right. Perhaps the fabled RX-71 will be that device, if not I'm sure another company can earn my money.

[Oh and I have another thing to rag on about concerning the n97 (too early to tell what they did for the RX-51) - the N810 has a built-in stylus holder, genius (yes Palm and others did this years ago), does the N97...no, they include a stylus the size of permanent marker with a "convenient" cellphone strap. hah. what a kick in the face.]

[wert613]

^ I am also disturbed by the direction this device is headed, the attraction of the NIT's to me was the *lack* of gsm radio. I just wanted a wifi enabled PDA equivalent. The PDA is a dying species.

[Picklesworth]

^ I am also disturbed by the direction this device is headed, the attraction of the NIT's to me was the *lack* of gsm radio. I just wanted a wifi enabled PDA equivalent. The PDA is a dying species.

Same thought here. I won't pay for a GSM radio that I'm never going to use, unfortunately.

I am interested in seeing how much of that front face is the screen, but judging by the Nokia logo and the speaker, it's probably a pretty big bevel. (From which comes the thought: is the case any smaller?).

I also get the scary impression that Nokia is positioning Maemo as a direct competitor to Android and Palm WebOS. While the platform is really nice and open, I fear it could get clobbered as a phone. (I guess what would save it is a really good development environment that makes it easy to port stuff, since porting desktop apps is where Maemo shines).

I can't wrong this too much, though. That camera is beautiful.
I'll just quietly sit here and cross my fingers for an N910 that strips the phone stuff, gives me a big screen and a four row keyboard. Maybe I'm just afraid of change :)

[ysss]

3.5" is not so bad.. only about 12-13% shorter on each axis compared to my n800.. (looking at the 3.5" on my iphone).

I don't think Nokia can sustain a cellular-less device..

[wert613]

Valid point, I always have thought the NITs were a proof of concept for the MID. More of a hobbyists device, Nokias business lies with mobiles.

[ysss]

For the $15-25 more to include a cell radio subsystem, they can be sold to a much wider audience to get the required quantity to qualify for 'wholesale parts prices' ;)

It's better to demand (ask nicely?) for the product to be designed to be fully usable without activating the cellular portion\without a SIM inserted.

[drizek]

If they add a bar at the bottom of the terminal which has all our favorite buttons, it would be the best of both worlds. That way you won't even have to press a modifier key to get buttons like pipe or tilde.

Also: I see no reason not to have cellphone capabilities. I assume everyone already has a cellphone, so why keep lugging it around when you can get all the ufnctionality and more in the tablet you already take everywhere with you. THen theres the whole 3G thing that makes the "walkaround web" actually real. Since this is progbably going to TMobile, thats a $25/month charge for unlimited internets and 400 SMSs. It's not bad(AT&T charges 30/month for internet and an additional .20/each sms, or 5/200, or 15/1000, or 20/unlimited).

Edit: Unlimted text/internet from TMobile is $30 combined, but with Google Voice, I doubt I will be sending old school sms.

[wert613]

It's better to demand (ask nicely?) for the product to be designed to be fully usable without activating the cellular portion\without a SIM inserted.

Quite true but the device seems to have been limited as a MID (smaller screen, keyboard) in the attempt to make it more phone-like.

[drizek]

I just remembered that the n800 already has keys like Tab/Esc/PgUp/Contrl on a bottom bar. I would say it is almost guaranteed to be there in Maemo 5, so I personally no longer have any issues with the keyboard, other than the space bar.

It is personal preference, but I hit it with my left hand exclusively and I imagine it will be tough to get used to.

[attila77]

Guys, the phone thing has already been beaten to death. Too many times. It's not just the cost of components, with voice capability you're switching markets (see if that 15$ will buy you an upgrade from an iPod Touch to an iPhone). The fact that the Touch, Archos and others exist prove there actually IS a market for non-voice (potentially with cell data) devices. It's a completely different question which market you want to be (not) in.

[dukemagus]

you know, sometimes i just think we should put 2 touch screens and use one as keyboard... like a Nintendo DS, just better

[DarkLight]

Here is an update from boygeniusreport: http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/08/09/nokia-rover-smiles-for-the-camera/

[qole]

If they add a bar at the bottom of the terminal which has all our favorite buttons, it would be the best of both worlds. That way you won't even have to press a modifier key to get buttons like pipe or tilde.

I hope the bar is on the side. Vertical real estate (only 480 pixels) is so precious... Please take some from the 800 pixels we have horizontally.

[Laughing Man]

If they add a bar at the bottom of the terminal which has all our favorite buttons, it would be the best of both worlds. That way you won't even have to press a modifier key to get buttons like pipe or tilde.

Also: I see no reason not to have cellphone capabilities. I assume everyone already has a cellphone, so why keep lugging it around when you can get all the ufnctionality and more in the tablet you already take everywhere with you. THen theres the whole 3G thing that makes the "walkaround web" actually real. Since this is progbably going to TMobile, thats a $25/month charge for unlimited internets and 400 SMSs. It's not bad(AT&T charges 30/month for internet and an additional .20/each sms, or 5/200, or 15/1000, or 20/unlimited).

Edit: Unlimted text/internet from TMobile is $30 combined, but with Google Voice, I doubt I will be sending old school sms.

Really? When I looked into it for an Android phone (gf is also on TMobile) I thought it was more for data..

[YoDude]

Here is an update from boygeniusreport: http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/08/09/nokia-rover-smiles-for-the-camera/

The same info and pics that have been posted here over the last several days and somewhere on the net last month... The boy may be a genius but he must be one of them sl-o-o-o-w genius's or suttin'. :D

[lma]

I hope the bar is on the side. Vertical real estate (only 480 pixels) is so precious... Please take some from the 800 pixels we have horizontally.

In beta 2 it's still horizontal (pretty much the same as on Diablo), but it's not configurable or hide-able.

[SD69]

In beta 2 it's still horizontal (pretty much the same as on Diablo), but it's not configurable or hide-able.Yea, what happened to the full screen button and what's going to replace it? The multi-tasking is key and we don't know yet how that will work.

[qgil]

All this fuzz about osso-xterm... Why don't you simply add yourselves to https://garage.maemo.org/projects/osso-xterm/ and start contributing there? :)

Gabriel has been taking Fremantle patches, although something like a vertical bar should probably be discussed before. Still, it's all open source so if you want to give it a try...

[qole]

All this fuzz about osso-xterm...

Quim, you've been here long enough to know that, to us geeks, XTerm is core functionality!

So yeah, we need to know about the pipe character. ;)

[qgil]

This is why I'm surprised about speculation on a piece of software that has open source code, is open to contributions and can be tested in the Fremantle SDK since the alpha release. :)

[lma]

Yea, what happened to the full screen button and what's going to replace it?

Full-screen is still there, but it just removes the title/status bar. There's currently no way to tell osso-xterm to hide the toolbar in full-screen mode like you could in earlier versions. (Not a complaint, I fully expect that to change by the time it's released).

[lma]

All this fuzz about osso-xterm... Why don't you simply add yourselves to https://garage.maemo.org/projects/osso-xterm/ and start contributing there? :)

Speaking of which, there's been a disappointing lack of response to bug 3929 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3929) (Requesting integration of some community supplied XTerm enhancements) so far. Just bringing it up here in case the right people have not seen it yet.

[tso]

This is why I'm surprised about speculation on a piece of software that has open source code, is open to contributions and can be tested in the Fremantle SDK since the alpha release. :)

unless i have missed a VM release, the SDK appears to be a ***** to set up, especially if all you plan on doing is toy around...

[Milhouse]

Speaking of which, there's been a disappointing lack of response to bug 3929 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3929) (Requesting integration of some community supplied XTerm enhancements) so far. Just bringing it up here in case the right people have not seen it yet.

I must admit I was biting my tongue over that bug. :)

@Quim: Good to see Nokia finally giving you the resources you and your team have deserved from it's inception. It's pretty obvious Nokia are now in an awkward situation with Symbian floundering for the next 12-18 months and Maemo left as their potential "get out of jail free" card.

The RX-51 hardware looks nice and certainly has the spec to succeed, although it's too early to say anything about the UI on Maemo5 as it's yet to be seen in it's fully glory (maybe it's time to "leak" some YouTube videos!)

As ever it's likely the rest of Nokia and their knuckle headed management will be your biggest obstacles to success, but hopefully the grim future facing Nokia in the high-end device market will ensure such obstacles are cleared from your path with the minimum of fuss.

One challenge that still needs to be addressed is the need for more openness in the bug filing & reporting process from Nokia/Maemo engineers - in future Maemo will need a community, developers and mind-share more than ever! :)

[fms]

If they add a bar at the bottom of the terminal which has all our favorite buttons, it would be the best of both worlds. That way you won't even have to press a modifier key to get buttons like pipe or tilde.
Oh, god, please, not the bottom again! The screen has got some extra (in terms of 4:3 terminal window ratio) space on the side. Add it to a side! Do not take precious vertical space.

[GeneralAntilles]

This is why I'm surprised about speculation on a piece of software that has open source code, is open to contributions and can be tested in the Fremantle SDK since the alpha release. :)

Easy, because what's apparently open code, isn't actually open code at all (see Hildon), but old code or only partially updated code that's sitting in a repo waiting for the go-ahead to release the real code.

Open is OK when things are actually open, but as it stands, half the "open" components out there are nothing of the sort. Then by the time they actually attain real open status again after a release Nokia is going to have moved on into maintenance mode and wont expend any effort on addressing community bugs and enhancement requests (not even, seemingly, when those bugs comes with perfectly good patches).

So, no, you can't have it both ways here. Either you actually do your development in the community by getting your developers and managers out and participating in the community and stop with the code-over-the-wall insanity or you end this "open" fiction.

[daperl]

Oh, god, please, not the bottom again! The screen has got some extra (in terms of 4:3 terminal window ratio) space on the side. Add it to a side! Do not take precious vertical space.

Where there's a will there's a way. I know I'm a crappy UI designer, but someone has to come up with an elegant solution to save vertical real estate in landscape mode.

3899

[fpp]

ROTFL... I believe it was all about the toolbar, not the virtual keyboard :-)

[daperl]

ROTFL... I believe it was all about the toolbar, not the virtual keyboard :-)

I'm glad I was able to give you a good chuckle, but my point was that everything can go on the side, even a keyboard. :)

[fms]

Where there's a will there's a way. I know I'm a crappy UI designer, but someone has to come up with an elegant solution to save vertical real estate in landscape mode.
I hate to disappoint you, but there is much easier way to have a decent on-screen keyboard in XTerm. Simply overlay it over entire screen: as XTerm itself rarely requires mouse input, you can just as well use the whole screen as a virtual keyboard.

PS: In fact, this modification has already been applied to the current Diablo XTerm, quite successfully.

[tso]

anywhere one can download said modded xterm?

[qole]

According to Quim in the comments of Bug 3929, someone needs to open a specific bug asking that the toolbar(s) get moved to the side instead of the bottom, or even better, a way to move the toolbar(s) to any edge (left, right, top, bottom) the user prefers. And you also need to provide a patch to do it, so that the osso-xterm guy, Gabriel, can add it.

(Well, there's no guarantee that he'll add it, but I wish I was a programmer so I could try anyway.)

Any programmers out there able to provide this patch? Or is there a version already out there that can have the relevant code diff'ed out and posted as a patch?

[mikkov]

Here's a screenshot of current osso-xterm in fremantle SDK

[fnordianslip]

Is bash in freemantle, or must we suffer busybox again?

fnord

[Jaffa]

Is bash in freemantle, or must we suffer busybox again?

Why would Nokia ship it if they don't need to? If you want it, use apt-get (and probably don't make bash symlinked from /bin/sh).

[lma]

as XTerm itself rarely requires mouse input

Well, you need it to select text and (in Fremantle) scroll.

[lma]

Is bash in freemantle, or must we suffer busybox again?


It is in the repository (http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0beta2/free/b/bash/), but that's probably just for scratchbox (as in Diablo). Bash is the default interactive shell in Mer though (/bin/sh is dash).

[GeneralAntilles]

Is bash in freemantle, or must we suffer busybox again?


Well, the busybox shipping with Fremantle is newer and has many more features enabled.

The performance benefits of using busybox over GNUtils and bash are non-trivial. Although power users may be making some sacrifices with busybox, the vast majority of users will appreciate significantly improved startup times.

[daperl]

I hate to disappoint you, but there is much easier way to have a decent on-screen keyboard in XTerm. Simply overlay it over entire screen: as XTerm itself rarely requires mouse input, you can just as well use the whole screen as a virtual keyboard.

PS: In fact, this modification has already been applied to the current Diablo XTerm, quite successfully.

I own a nice ssh client that uses keyboard and function overlays. For quick stuff here and there it works fine. And maybe even for text messages or forum posts a translucent keyboard would be reasonable. But I often edit and stare at code, and I've found my side keyboard terminal program to be the most productive solution at the moment. My opinion is that being really productive on a smart phone is an open frontier, and I'm not convinced we've seen the best solutions yet. And if an apathetic person like myself gave it a try, it's likely others are thinking about it also. Maybe.

[lma]

Well, the busybox shipping with Fremantle is newer and has many more features enabled.

However it's been frozen at 1.10.2 since at least prealpha2 (it wasn't included in the first one) which is getting a bit long in the tooth now, and is not even the latest 1.10 patchlevel (which had already been 6 months old at the time prealpha2 came out).


The performance benefits of using busybox over GNUtils and bash are non-trivial. Although power users may be making some sacrifices with busybox, the vast majority of users will appreciate significantly improved startup times.

Busybox ash sucks as an interactive shell. With the extra rootfs legroom in Fremantle having bash preinstalled and used as root's and user's login shell by default (while keeping ash as /bin/sh) would make "power" users happy without sacrificing performance or delaying startup.

[nwerneck]

Here's a screenshot of current osso-xterm in fremantle SDK

What is this strange and bad looking font that is being used in Fremantle anyway? Where is the marvelous Nokia font? I am a big fan of the Nokia font, I love it that many applications use it in Maemo... The xterm, for example, uses it in the toolbox. What is this skinny thing they are trying to make us swallow??

[GeneralAntilles]

Busybox ash sucks as an interactive shell. With the extra rootfs legroom in Fremantle having bash preinstalled and used as root's and user's login shell by default (while keeping ash as /bin/sh) would make "power" users happy without sacrificing performance or delaying startup.

This, however, increases platform complexity, adds packages to support and increases testing time. It'd be much simpler for some fine community member (yourself, perhaps) to put together a small package and upload it to Extras. Then Nokia isn't saddled with lots of extras support costs, and you can get exactly what you want.

That's the nice thing about this platform, if you've got an itch then scratch it!

[qwerty12]

What is this strange and bad looking font that is being used in Fremantle anyway? Where is the marvelous Nokia font? I am a big fan of the Nokia font, I love it that many applications use it in Maemo... The xterm, for example, uses it in the toolbox. What is this skinny thing they are trying to make us swallow??

That's just a screenshot from the SDK. The SDKs have never included the Nokia font used on the device.[1]

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=306774&postcount=1 shows a screenshot of Fremantle running on a real device, displaying the Nokia font, in the title bar, which we've all come to love.

[1] A default install of the Fremantle SDK does not include it, like its predecessors, but, this time, with the Fremantle SDK, it can be installed after adding the nokia-binaries repository: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=311172&postcount=75
Thanks Yerga ;)

[volt]

Well, it's not as bad as we feared and could have had far less physical buttons in going for that new, modern sleek design look. We sort of guessed it was going to be a phone and that they were going to take away the dpad. But we still have directional keys, the zoom keys, and some others - lock key(?), fullscreen key(?), menu key(?). Not a bad result when compared with expectations a few months ago.

What is a dedicated tab button, pipe, etc? Is there another device which has that?

I don't see how they could have had any much fewer physical keys. I have yet to see a phone with keyboard that doesn't have some sort of directional keys. The zoom buttons aren't on the keyboard and that balances that most every phone has the same key and uses it for a volume key. The fullscreen key balances the standard camera shutter button, and menu keys are as essential for the Maemo platform as a Windows key for the Windows platform.

One of the problems with this keyboard is that there's no obvious way to use common european characters without removing common punctuation or other much-used characters from the Sym charset. Another is that it's less useable for typical linux terminal tasks, like " | more " or " | grep " - and this community is much about linux terminal tasks.

Of course, we can always use a bluetooth keyboard, but then they could've made a more Diamond2-like device.

[attila77]

What I found funny is that the chr key was grossly underutilized on the N810 (e.g. why menu when you could do chr+e for é as such). We can only guess what kdb input is possible with the N900 - the basics are clear but (hopefully) there are a few tricks up Nokias sleeve, maybe through some funky ctrl-shift-fn combo, or dynamic layouts (wouldn't it bee cool for layouts to change when you switch from terminal to composing mail ? or swap kbdmaps with fn-enter or sorts ?). So, it's nut just in the number of keys, but with less keys you have to be smarter on the usability side. We'll see how that plays out.

[yerga]

That's just a screenshot from the SDK. The SDKs have never included the Nokia font used on the device.

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=306774&postcount=1 shows a screenshot of Fremantle running on a real device, displaying the Nokia font, in the title bar, which we've all come to love.

It isn't completely true ;-)

The device font is available in Fremantle SDK installing the ui-fonts package: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-July/019981.html

[lma]

This, however, increases platform complexity, adds packages to support and increases testing time.

That's an entirely different conversation. I'm just saying you can have bash as the default interactive shell without impacting system performance or boot time.

But since you brought it up, it's not like ash-as-interactive-shell comes without (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=612) its (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2918) own (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3041) support (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3141) problems (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4175).

It'd be much simpler for some fine community member (yourself, perhaps) to put together a small package and upload it to Extras.

FYI, that's a solved problem: bash packages are already available both in Extras (http://repository.maemo.org/extras/pool/diablo/free/b/bash2/) and in the SDK (http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/b/bash/) repository, and the Extras one comes with a simple tool (bash-setup) to change your default interactive shell.

[qgil]

fwiw this is how x-term looks today in full screen splendour. If you want to keep this discussion, feel free opening a new thread since this topic has deviated a lot from the original post. Thanks!

[lardman]

Hmm, Debian 3:1.10.2.legal-1osso26+0m5

I suppose that implies there was an illegal version somewhere?

[lma]

The legal-1osso* busybox version suffix has been there since chinook at least, no idea why.

[debernardis]

The major Italian financial newsper sports an article on the Rover:
http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/SoleOnLine4/dossier/Tecnologia e Business/speciale-cellulari/news/nokia-rover-n900.shtml?uuid=76173caa-873d-11de-8d7d-73bbbbb8773c&DocRulesView=Libero

Suits are now informed :)

[qwerty12]

The legal-1osso* busybox version suffix has been there since chinook at least, no idea why.

And we shall never know why:


busybox (3:1.6.1.legal-1osso3) unstable; urgency=low

* Legal cleanups. Fixes: NB#66440 <--

-- Yauheni Kaliuta <yauheni.kaliuta@nokia.com> Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:48:40 +0300

busybox (3:1.6.1-1osso2) unstable; urgency=low

* 07tar-spaces.dpatch added

-- Yauheni Kaliuta <yauheni.kaliuta@nokia.com> Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:01:58 +0300


:)

But, that said, it isn't critical information to know...

[nwerneck]

Suits are now informed :)

And Italian suits, which are the best! :)

[timsamoff]

The major Italian financial newsper sports an article on the Rover:
http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/SoleOnLine4/dossier/Tecnologia e Business/speciale-cellulari/news/nokia-rover-n900.shtml?uuid=76173caa-873d-11de-8d7d-73bbbbb8773c&DocRulesView=Libero

Suits are now informed :)
In English:

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=y&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ilsole24ore.com%2Fart%2FSoleOnL ine4%2Fdossier%2FTecnologia%2520e%2520Business%2Fs peciale-cellulari%2Fnews%2Fnokia-rover-n900.shtml%3Fuuid%3D76173caa-873d-11de-8d7d-73bbbbb8773c%26DocRulesView%3DLibero&sl=it&tl=en&history_state0=

Tim

[ARJWright]

What if instead of using directional keys that Nokia took a page from what Palm did with the Pre and made a gesture area that supports directional-pad like movements, and can be combined with the accelerometer to do even more "physics-bending" movements with the device. Would that make half of you (those that want a physical directional pad) happy?

[fms]

What if instead of using directional keys that Nokia took a page from what Palm did with the Pre and made a gesture area that supports directional-pad like movements, and can be combined with the accelerometer to do even more "physics-bending" movements with the device. Would that make half of you (those that want a physical directional pad) happy?
Bad for gaming. Just keep the damn arrows.

[danramos]

For the $15-25 more to include a cell radio subsystem, they can be sold to a much wider audience to get the required quantity to qualify for 'wholesale parts prices'

It's better to demand (ask nicely?) for the product to be designed to be fully usable without activating the cellular portion\without a SIM inserted.

Last I checked... a cell phone radio version of anything never was as cheap as a $15-25 difference. I'll be damned before I buy a device with a huge markup just to have a radio sitting inside like an throbbing, sharply infected appendix I wish I could have removed.

Bad for gaming. Just keep the damn arrows.

Wholly agreed. GOD.. is it ever "wholly agreed"

[ysss]

@danramos: it's what COST them in parts per unit. How much higher they would SELL with the addition of said parts, is a different matter :D
Sure, there's the additional cost of integration, firmware\software development and whatnot..

[danramos]

@danramos: it's what COST them in parts per unit. How much higher they would SELL with the addition of said parts, is a different matter :D
Sure, there's the additional cost of integration, firmware\software development and whatnot..

In the end, as the person who'll be paying the asking price, what difference does that make? I'd rather be without the flipping piece of crap I'll never use that's raised the cost up so high.

[ysss]

@danramos: think there's a big enough market for a cellular-less tablet to sustain its lifecycle on its own?

[Cruelkix]

@danramos: think there's a big enough market for a cellular-less tablet to sustain its lifecycle on its own?

I would definitly say yes if they were willing to market it differently. Compare it to a ZuneHD which is getting alot of buzz right now and it beats the pants off it in functionality. Hell, market it against the ipod touch. Do the same parallel marketing that apple did. One with phone one without. ipod touches sell pretty well.

[Jaffa]

In the end, as the person who'll be paying the asking price, what difference does that make? I'd rather be without the flipping piece of crap I'll never use that's raised the cost up so high.

Everyone has a price that they think something is worth; and they shouldn't pay any more for something than that.

If the HSPA capability is useless to you, ignore it. Evaluate the device on everything which does matter to you and see if it's worth the asking price. If not, shrug your shoulders and move on. If you're "right" (in the sense of the market), Nokia'll learn and adapt to meet the market requirements.

If the price point - when it's known - is too high for the features you want, buy another device such as a SmartQ 5 or a new, discount, N810.

From what I can see, RX-51 is going to outsell any individual previous tablet model - and, if we're really lucky as a community - it'll outsell all the previous tablet models combined.

This'll have two advantages:

Volume means reduced costs (although by sharing components with phones, Nokia are already leveraging one aspect of their business to the benefit of another).
More users means more developers means more apps means more users means more developers... which means I can do more with my Maemo device than I can now.

[ysss]

@cruelkix: we'll have to see how well nokia can rally the content providers for it.

[tso]

hp seemed to think there was a large enough market for dedicated pda's to make the 110 and 210 series of products...

[Jaffa]

hp seemed to think there was a large enough market for dedicated pda's to make the 110 and 210 series of products...

So did Psion (and Sony and ...). Psion don't anymore. Do HP?

[attila77]

@danramos: think there's a big enough market for a cellular-less tablet to sustain its lifecycle on its own?

As stated before, the market, while not as big as smartphones, is definitely there. Otherwise you would not have the iPod Touch, Archos 5/7, SmartQ5/7, Mondi, Zune HD and similar devices available. Ideally, I'd like to see Nokia do something with the Rx-71 akin to the iPhone/Touch split, so both people who want a small all-in-one and those who want a dedicated (perhaps slightly bigger) internet device can share a common platform.

[danramos]

Everyone has a price that they think something is worth; and they shouldn't pay any more for something than that.

If the HSPA capability is useless to you, ignore it. Evaluate the device on everything which does matter to you and see if it's worth the asking price. If not, shrug your shoulders and move on. If you're "right" (in the sense of the market), Nokia'll learn and adapt to meet the market requirements.

If the price point - when it's known - is too high for the features you want, buy another device such as a SmartQ 5 or a new, discount, N810.

From what I can see, RX-51 is going to outsell any individual previous tablet model - and, if we're really lucky as a community - it'll outsell all the previous tablet models combined.

This'll have two advantages:

Volume means reduced costs (although by sharing components with phones, Nokia are already leveraging one aspect of their business to the benefit of another).
More users means more developers means more apps means more users means more developers... which means I can do more with my Maemo device than I can now.



I have several problems with that attitude. Not the least of which is that I bought into an N800 because it's exactly what I need and want. What I'd like to buy into is the next generation of what I need and want--a faster and more capable version of that device. Not some OTHER device I didn't want. It's a tad hard to 'ignore what you don't need' when it's boosted up the price enough to almost buy two of the previous generation.

Then there's the previous generation. I didn't see fit to go from the N800 to the N810--but if I don't like this painfully expensive appendix I'd rather not have to pay for, you want me to just buy an N810? You're talking about the one that Nokia no longer maintains, right? The one that shares all the same problems with my N800 of a lack of parts, support and everything that goes along with being the last generation to boot?

If this new device fails to do well--will Nokia just drop the whole line and just concentrate on their phones (which I will never buy given my experience with their support in general) or will they indeed go ahead and actually change their products to suit what the customers actually want?

Is it so hard for Nokia to actually make the offending radio a seperate module you could insert into the back like the SD cards do now--you could go out and buy your supposedly $15-$25 radio, if you so chose.. and the rest of us could happily have the same device we invested into all along the way to this point.

Near a I can tell, this thing isn't a tablet.. it's a smartphone. Call it what it is. Stop pretending it's in the same field as a general purpose device like a MID or the previous tablets. By that token, I'm still disappointed that Nokia hasn't released a new tablet that I can upgrade from my N800 to. (Sorry.. but N800 to N810 isn't an upgrade.)

[GeneralAntilles]

Not some OTHER device I didn't want. It's a tad hard to 'ignore what you don't need' when it's boosted up the price enough to almost buy two of the previous generation.

Ah! You have information about the price of the RX-51? Do share!

[Jaffa]

I bought into an N800 because it's exactly what I need and want. What I'd like to buy into is the next generation of what I need and want--a faster and more capable version of that device.

Right. And my point is that at the time, there was a device that had the features you want at the price you were willing to pay for it. You don't yet know what price RX-51 will sell at, so you can't (yet) make a conclusion about its cost-value balance.

You don't owe Nokia anything, and lack of sales is going to count more than arguments on a forum.

Then there's the previous generation. I didn't see fit to go from the N800 to the N810--but if I don't like this painfully expensive appendix I'd rather not have to pay for, you want me to just buy an N810?

No, I want you to decide what device to buy based on what meets your requirements. I ain't your popa.

Is it so hard for Nokia to actually make the offending radio a seperate module you could insert into the back like the SD cards do now--you could go out and buy your supposedly $15-$25 radio, if you so chose.. and the rest of us could happily have the same device we invested into all along the way to this point.

Yes. It's been explained multiple times that attempts at modularisation at a mobile device level have failed for technical, logistical, pace-of-change and physical reasons.

If you want modular; go to Bug Labs. If you want a MID, buy a MID. If you want a high-end Maemo device and RX-51 meets your requirements: buy it. If you want the hardware of a SmartQ 5, but you love Maemo, support Mer.

Options is one thing you're not short of, and no-one is forcing you do to anything.

Near a I can tell, this thing isn't a tablet.. it's a smartphone. Call it what it is. Stop pretending it's in the same field as a general purpose device like a MID or the previous tablets.

I don't know what "it" is. Nokia haven't announced it yet. Based on the leaks, rumours, speculation and stuff we've gleaned from the SDKs I'd say you're right - this is probably a phone. Running Maemo. A mainstream phone from the largest mobile phone manufacturer on the planet, running Linux, with an active community already and an engaged manufacturer; which ships with an X Terminal out-of-the-box (I guess).

This could get Maemo mentioned in the same articles as iPhone, Android and webOS. Hell, new apps for Fremantle will - on the whole - end up running on Mer, which'll run on existing N8x0s.

By that token, I'm still disappointed that Nokia hasn't released a new tablet that I can upgrade from my N800 to. (Sorry.. but N800 to N810 isn't an upgrade.)

Right. You're disappointed, I get that. Why are you trying to convince everyone else to be miserable too? People for whom RX-51 isn't the right device don't have to buy it. We've already seen evidence of another Maemo device in the pipeline; wait for that/don't/buy something else; it's your money and your choice.

[sunwong]

@danramos: You pointed it out very clearly in your last post... RX-51 is not a table, but a smartphone.

Now, isn't it contradictory that you demand that Nokia pulls the GSM radio out of their new smartphone, yet to be announced....?

I guess that you are in fact asking for a quick launch of their RX-71 instead..

I think the strategy is there, and the plan is very good, IMO. Launch a new smartphone based on Maemo for the general public and generate a wide user base. Then launch the MID and benefit from the multiple sinergies.

Plus, the Ovi store is getting ready for Maemo, so is Maps and other services... This has been in the works for over a year, I don't think that Nokia is going to piss any previous Maemo customer off. It is just that It's not ready yet for launch.

Are there any rumours about RX-71's hardware, BTW? I bet It will be a real monster... :)

[sunwong]

PS: I highly doubt that the new Maemo device will fail to sell well, even the 5800 has had big success in several european countries as some have said here... :)

The RX-51 will be a big success and the RX-71 will launch a mere three-six months away from it, that's my "prediction". 5800-N97 combo worked well with such timing..

[danramos]

Ah! You have information about the price of the RX-51? Do share!

I'm willing to best it'll be much more expensive than the same unit would have been without the cell phone radio. :) Do YOU know what it'll be?

@danramos: You pointed it out very clearly in your last post... RX-51 is not a table, but a smartphone.

Now, isn't it contradictory that you demand that Nokia pulls the GSM radio out of their new smartphone, yet to be announced....?

I guess that you are in fact asking for a quick launch of their RX-71 instead..

I think the strategy is there, and the plan is very good, IMO. Launch a new smartphone based on Maemo for the general public and generate a wide user base. Then launch the MID and benefit from the multiple sinergies.

Plus, the Ovi store is getting ready for Maemo, so is Maps and other services... This has been in the works for over a year, I don't think that Nokia is going to piss any previous Maemo customer off. It is just that It's not ready yet for launch.

Are there any rumours about RX-71's hardware, BTW? I bet It will be a real monster... :)

You've pretty much nailed it--what I wanted is a new tablet.. not a cell phone. That's the basis for my disappointment. Here's hoping for a new TABLET to come out sooner than later.

[SD69]

I don't see how they could have had any much fewer physical keys. I have yet to see a phone with keyboard that doesn't have some sort of directional keys. I think you misunderstood the comments. :confused: There was a time when it wasn't clear that the next device would even have a keyboard. Nokia would not disclaim that the device would not have an iphone like form factor or D-pad, etc.

The zoom buttons aren't on the keyboard and that balances that most every phone has the same key and uses it for a volume key. The fullscreen key balances the standard camera shutter button, and menu keys are as essential for the Maemo platform as a Windows key for the Windows platform.
I don't know what you mean by "balances." Very few current generation devices (other than Maemo devices) have keys or other hardware dedicated to zoom (as distinguished from keyboard shortcuts or gestures) - Smart Q5 and TouchPro2 and Touch Diamond2 AFAIK. Nokia was signalling big changes between Maemo 4 and Maemo 5, so it was not clear that the menu key would remain essential (even if it is in fact essential) in Maemo 5.

[mrojas]

I'm willing to best it'll be much more expensive than the same unit would have been without the cell phone radio. :) Do YOU know what it'll be?



You've pretty much nailed it--what I wanted is a new tablet.. not a cell phone. That's the basis for my disappointment. Here's hoping for a new TABLET to come out sooner than later.

I think that the potential launch of a RX-71 will depend on the success of the RX-51, so, it's better for us to stand together and try to push the platform forward the best we can in our own particular ways.

[danramos]

I think that the potential launch of a RX-71 will depend on the success of the RX-51, so, it's better for us to stand together and try to push the platform forward the best we can in our own particular ways.

Oh I'm all for the maemo platform--I'm just pretty sure I'm not going to want to be behind this device. Particularly if I'm told to buy into a contract with a carrier (particularly one that isn't the one I use) or else told to pay a WHOLE lot more than it's actually going to be worth to have this dangling appendix I had to pay to carry around.

I know some of you don't like to hear that repeated, but I think there's also some of us that hoped Nokia would do something Internet-Tabletty--not cell-phoney. The maemo platform itself is quite fine and I'm increasingly happier with what the maemo group is doing. Don't mistake my disappointment for Nokia as disappointment for maemo.

[qole]

Has Nokia been known for locking people into a contract with a carrier? I don't know, I'm not from the US and I've never owned a mobile phone. But my impression from reading the comments on this forum is that Nokia doesn't tend to play that game (and some people here say that it has hurt sales in the US)...

It seems to me that a Linux phone would be even less likely to be locked-in than a closed OS system, especially if the whole telephony stack is open, from the modem driver upwards. Looks like the UI is the only thing that won't be open, but we know that from the SDK.


http://qole.org/images/oFono-architecture.png (http://ofono.org/)


Again, I'm no expert here, and someone will probably point out that it is easy to lock down a phone even when everything is GPL like that...

It just doesn't seem likely that they're going to be locking anything down, considering the direction Nokia is going with Maemo.

[zerojay]

...some of us that hoped Nokia would do something Internet-Tabletty--not cell-phoney.

I think what we're going to see is Internet-Tabletty just with the added bonus of not needing to tether it to a cell phone to use it as it was intended (like a lot of people, myself included, do).

[timsamoff]

Has Nokia been known for locking people into a contract with a carrier?
Not necessarily, but carriers will lock you into a phone (i.e., US carriers typically don't resell unlocked phones, which means if you have an AT&T SIM card, it won't work in a Nokia phone from T-Mobile).

Tim

[Laughing Man]

Though there is an FCC investigation but I don't know if it'll change anything.

[GeraldKo]

I think all these kinds of tying arrangements are inherently anti-competitive. How can a small carrier compete? Just by virtue of its not being big, companies like AT&T and Apple (or Verizon and RIM, or ...) can make deals that exclude the small carrier. The small carrier ought to be able to compete head-to-head with AT&T on what they actually offer, on a piece by piece basis. All the carriers ought to be forced to offer a pure pipe, varying if they want on how much bandwidth is used; then they can all go head-to-head. Not forcing that on the carriers is inevitably bad for the consumers. Likewise allowing the carriers to force more than just pipe access on the consumers is anti-competitive.

If you had real Adam Smith capitalism, with hundreds of carriers, then some carrier would independently decide to offer a pure pipe as a means to compete against the ones who don't. But with only several carriers, there's an oligopoly and none of them find it worthwhile to compete that way, even if it's what customers most want. Instead they differentiate themselves by choosing what combination of crap they force on the consumers, and they make believe that's real competition. For many years, the American system generally has shown no interest in interfering with oligopolistic/monopolistic behavior, but it hasn't been so bad for a hundred years as it was under Bush. The current Supreme Court tilts pro-monopoly, too.

Maybe under Obama things will get better. It's a better FCC for one thing. We can hope (with more reason than we had a year ago for hoping).

[ysss]

As stated before, the market, while not as big as smartphones, is definitely there. Otherwise you would not have the iPod Touch, Archos 5/7, SmartQ5/7, Mondi, Zune HD and similar devices available. Ideally, I'd like to see Nokia do something with the Rx-71 akin to the iPhone/Touch split, so both people who want a small all-in-one and those who want a dedicated (perhaps slightly bigger) internet device can share a common platform.

Are those really in the same market as your supposed tablet though? 3 out of the 5 quoted devices are media players 'first', before 'tablet' computers. All those 3 also depend on some sort of DRM in their content delivery mechanism. AND.. out of the 5 samples you gave, there are only 2 real and 'proven' products.. which are both within this so-called the DRM-ed media player category: iPod Touch and Archos. Well, I don't really know about Archos' numbers.. but at least they've managed to sustain and rehash their product lines for a few gen.

[Reggie]

Great post from Ryan of Ars: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2009/08/nokias-linux-strategy-broadens-with-upcoming-maemo-5-device.ars

I hope he attends the summit again this year.

[Laughing Man]

Again, I'm no expert here, and someone will probably point out that it is easy to lock down a phone even when everything is GPL like that...

It just doesn't seem likely that they're going to be locking anything down, considering the direction Nokia is going with Maemo.

Have no fear, for every company that tries to lock something down. There's plenty hell bent on unlocking it. :D

[ARJWright]

Sometimes, just sometimes, the attitudes here bewilder me...

...people ask for better tablets, then complain when features are added in.
...people ask for standarization and better tools, then complain when the old stuff that can't work with the new tools aren't supported.
...people ask for a device to do more, cost less, and use fewer resources, but...

...just sometimes, I feel like when I come here, the psychology of the user base undermines the intentions of the users to actually see that they are getting what they want.
---

Again, there's nothing in Nokia's history with locked/unlocked devices that stipulates that they will offer this device only in a locked condition in all of the regions that it will be sold. I'd recommend reading the FCC filing again for the RX-51, and considering, just for a moment, that you might have more options for purchasing this than you think.

[mmurfin87]

I'm completely the opposite of some people. A tablet is useless to me unless it has a 3G radio in it. I seriously WANT a Zune HD but I may just end up skipping it in favor of the rx-51 just because it has 3G.

I mean seriously, there's no reason NOT to want a 3G radio in this thing. It replaces everything in my pocket: tablet, phone, mp3 player, gps. This is PERFECT.

And you can NEVER know that you'll NEVER use it. You may have a change of heart in as little as 2 weeks and crave that radio in it for some reason. I pay extra for things that I think might come in useful, even if I doubt I'll use it.

[GeneralAntilles]

...just sometimes, I feel like when I come here, the psychology of the user base undermines the intentions of the users to actually see that they are getting what they want.

I think the problem is is that you're treating the individual opinions and desires of separate users like some sort of self-contradictory community consciousness.

It's really as simple as different people wanting different things.

[sunwong]

My personal experience with Nokia handsets in Spain is that they have always sold them unlocked first, then subsidized through one or more carriers (those are SIM locked, except those offered by Orange).

I have always purchased them unlocked but only because I wanted to have them soon after launch, but then again you pay a premium and also It will cost a lot less a couple of months later..

AFAIR, Nokia has never played such silly game here.

[deadmalc]

No necessarily, but carriers will lock you into a phone (i.e., US carriers typically don't resell unlocked phones, which means if you have an AT&T SIM card, it won't work in a Nokia phone from T-Mobile).

Tim

I've got a contract with Orange UK at the moment, I needed it unlocking so that my missus could use it for a few days while her phone was going for repair. I rang Orange and they unlocked it for about 10GBP, it took about 5 minutes to do - so I don't really see a big issue with "locked" phones, unless it's locked in the iphone kind of way.

[tso]

and thats why i "love" the usa == world that seems to be the norm in this forum...

still, i would love to see a phone-less device myself, as i have a perfectly fine phone already.

[epertinez]

Three things:
a) I have an S60 phone and I must say that if that is all Symbian can offer Symbian is already death. (have not seen N97 running). The system is unresponsive. I don't blame it. It's been a long road for symbian and it never had an older brother to help it improve multitasking like windows or linux for desktops and servers.
So that means Nokia NEEDS Maemo to run in a phone. At least one.
b) The problem is always the same. Maemo should run in two very diferent devices. One of them is a N97 sized tablet so you can carry it around with all your best software on it. If that has a phone it is ok for me (in fact I prefer that to have a phone). So RX-51 is a great step in that direction.
Then, there is another device, that can be as big as an small kindle, that connects wiressly to the phone and let you make all things you'll do with it but without taking it away from your pocket. That device don't need to have any phone capability (like N810) yet it should extensively use bluetooth to work with the phone so well you simply forget it is not a phone. A little bit like what happens with 3G Internet connection in N810. Once you paired N8X0 with a phone it actually has 3G internet built in. It becomes easy, fast, and transparent as if it had a SIM on it.
That device should have a much bigger screen, loud speakers, nice integrated keyboard, ... Much more portable than a Netbook and usable as a phone, as a PIM and as an Internet Tablet.

3) If RX-51 is going to have phone capabilities that means it is going to have a good integrated PIM. Hope they build it having very clear that that PIM should work seamesly as a SIM phone and as a virtual phone attached to your real phone using the protocols we alreardy have: bluetooth headsets, headphones, bluetooth PIM, bluetooth data, ...

[lma]

SIM locks are only half the story. Subsidised handsets also tend to have useful features crippled (UK example (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/18/n95_crippled/), or google for a seemingly infinite number of stories about crippled bluetooth in the US) if they don't quite match the operators' revenue models.

[Kypeli]

Off topic?

[dantonic]

... The problem is always the same. Maemo should run in two very diferent devices. One of them is a N97 sized tablet so you can carry it around with all your best software on it. If that has a phone it is ok for me (in fact I prefer that to have a phone). So RX-51 is a great step in that direction.
Then, there is another device, that can be as big as an small kindle, that connects wiressly to the phone and let you make all things you'll do with it but without taking it away from your pocket. That device don't need to have any phone capability (like N810) yet it should extensively use bluetooth to work with the phone so well you simply forget it is not a phone. A little bit like what happens with 3G Internet connection in N810. Once you paired N8X0 with a phone it actually has 3G internet built in. It becomes easy, fast, and transparent as if it had a SIM on it.
That device should have a much bigger screen, loud speakers, nice integrated keyboard, ... Much more portable than a Netbook and usable as a phone, as a PIM and as an Internet Tablet.
...

I would have no problem at all with a device the size of my N800 or even slightly bigger with great video and sound, and also sporting full Phone capabilities.
In fact I would have preferred a bigger screen.

I wouldn't even feel embarrassed placing such device against my ear when making a call. :P

Of course it could always be used hands-free.

The N800 with the paired 3G phone is a bit annoying imo. A fully integrated single device as described above would be ideal for me.

[attila77]

You've pretty much nailed it--what I wanted is a new tablet.. not a cell phone. That's the basis for my disappointment. Here's hoping for a new TABLET to come out sooner than later.

Note that since the phone version addresses a broader market, on a dual phone/tablet setup it has to come first.

[timsamoff]

I've got a contract with Orange UK at the moment, I needed it unlocking so that my missus could use it for a few days while her phone was going for repair. I rang Orange and they unlocked it for about 10GBP, it took about 5 minutes to do - so I don't really see a big issue with "locked" phones, unless it's locked in the iphone kind of way.
That's a great story, but I'll bet it's a rare one -- especially when talking about the "major" wireless carriers. A locked phone with a plan can cost pennies compared with the price of an unlocked phone. (Speaking of new phones here, since I bought an unlocked LG on eBay for $30.) If a major carrier "gives" someone a phone for $9.99 plus a plan, I highly doubt that they would be eager to unlock the phone for the customer when the locked version cost $300 w/out a plan and an unlocked version costs $700 on the free market.

Tim

[Cadabena]

I've got a contract with Orange UK at the moment, I needed it unlocking so that my missus could use it for a few days while her phone was going for repair. I rang Orange and they unlocked it for about 10GBP, it took about 5 minutes to do - so I don't really see a big issue with "locked" phones, unless it's locked in the iphone kind of way.

Lucky you! when I wanted to unlock my Orange PAYG phone, they said I'd have to have £20 of credit on, and it would happen within three months! I ended up getting it unlocked (and, as a bonus, debranded) from one of the little, independent, ever-so-dodgy phone shops you see in every town. Then Orange gave me an awesome contract when I asked for my PUK code... damn you, sod's law! :p

[Milhouse]

That's a great story, but I'll bet it's a rare one -- especially when talking about the "major" wireless carriers. A locked phone with a plan can cost pennies compared with the price of an unlocked phone. (Speaking of new phones here, since I bought an unlocked LG on eBay for $30.) If a major carrier "gives" someone a phone for $9.99 plus a plan, I highly doubt that they would be eager to unlock the phone for the customer when the locked version cost $300 w/out a plan and an unlocked version costs $700 on the free market.

Tim

Pretty standard practice in the UK, actually. During the lifetime of a contract you will be asked to pay a nominal fee (£10-£20 max) to unlock the contract phone, and the network operator will often unlock the phone at no charge once the contract is up (it's now your phone, your property, the operator has no legal right to restrict your usage of that phone any longer).

It's understandable that operators charge different prices for locked and unlocked phones, but once you have signed up for a 12 month+ contract it really makes little difference to the operator what you do with that phone as long as you continue paying the monthly charges. The nominal unlocking fee while in contract is probably intended to act as a disincentive to avoid widespread abuse of the unlocking system, but any operator who refuses to unlock a phone at any time during or after a contract is just taking the p.

Cadabena - not sure about the PAYG market, obviously the economics of PAYG vs. monthly contract are very different. £20 sounds about right, although 3 months is a little excessive (unless they wanted to accrue more income...)

[Cruelkix]

The N800 with the paired 3G phone is a bit annoying imo. A fully integrated single device as described above would be ideal for me.

Again, I think this is a perfect example of what the General said. Everyone has different needs. For example:

I have a work phone with no data plan. I dont need or want to carry around another phone, HOWEVER, I do want to carry around a tablet that DOES have 3G for DATA only. Yeah, not eveyone is in that boat.

As far as I'm concerned, put the 3G radio in but dont force people into a plan for it (@danramos, it really doesnt cost that much extra , and if you ever sell the thing the person buying it will PROBABLY want it, so you will at least get a percentage of it back) . Allow a plan for Phone+Data, Data only, or no plan at all. I think we then cover all the bases, assuming it still has the same capabilities for bluetooth pairing that it previously had (which it will at somepoint because someone in this forum will make it happen if it doesnt.)

This model works for both the RX-51 and RX-71.

Nokia offers phones that are not tied to a carrier. Always has (Or at least the interent has, Ebay). So if you are willing to drop the money you can get it that way.

I dont see a flaw in this but I'm sure someone does! Have at me!

[SD69]

That's a great story, but I'll bet it's a rare one -- especially when talking about the "major" wireless carriers. A locked phone with a plan can cost pennies compared with the price of an unlocked phone. (Speaking of new phones here, since I bought an unlocked LG on eBay for $30.) If a major carrier "gives" someone a phone for $9.99 plus a plan, I highly doubt that they would be eager to unlock the phone for the customer when the locked version cost $300 w/out a plan and an unlocked version costs $700 on the free market.

TimIt's not that unusual, most people just don't know about it. I've done it with Cingular and with T-Mobile in the past, just had to wait several months after getting the subsidized phone. Don't forget that even if the subsidized phone is unlocked and you can use it on another network, you still have that 2 year contract with a hefty ETF.

[GeraldKo]

I would have no problem at all with a device the size of my N800 or even slightly bigger with great video and sound, and also sporting full Phone capabilities.
In fact I would have preferred a bigger screen.

I wouldn't even feel embarrassed placing such device against my ear when making a call. :P

Of course it could always be used hands-free.

The N800 with the paired 3G phone is a bit annoying imo. A fully integrated single device as described above would be ideal for me.

If (and only if) it could work with a pay-as-you-go plan for phone and data, it would be my ideal, too.

[qole]

Not necessarily, but carriers will lock you into a phone (i.e., US carriers typically don't resell unlocked phones, which means if you have an AT&T SIM card, it won't work in a Nokia phone from T-Mobile).


SIM locks are only half the story. Subsidised handsets also tend to have useful features crippled (UK example (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/18/n95_crippled/), or google for a seemingly infinite number of stories about crippled bluetooth in the US) if they don't quite match the operators' revenue models.

I'll be very interested to see if the carriers will be able to pull any of those stunts with Maemo phones, especially the useful-features-crippling.

I guess the carrier could butcher the system and then use a special SIM card that checks that you're running the butchered OS (and refusing to work unless you are), otherwise it would be as simple as downloading new firmware from Nokia and flashing your device...

But it seems to me that in an open source OS, even a trick like that will be easy to work around. The 1337 hackers here and elsewhere will quickly identify the carriers' daemon and provide a how-to for getting unlocked devices working with that carriers' SIM cards...

(If the device is a phone) This is going to be an interesting new world, I must say...

[GeneralAntilles]

I'll be very interested to see if the carriers will be able to pull any of those stunts with Maemo phones, especially the useful-features-crippling.

The technical issues involved are interesting, but I really can't see Nokia allowing them to fool around with things like that.

[timsamoff]

I guess the carrier could butcher the system and then use a special SIM card that checks that you're running the butchered OS (and refusing to work unless you are)...
Funny. I would really admire a company you had the resources/time to do this. It would suck for end-users (until the hacks appeared), but for a company to invest in learning/altering Linux like that, well... It would be pretty amazing.

Tim

[alex_mayorga]

Pretty standard practice in the UK, actually. During the lifetime of a contract you will be asked to pay a nominal fee (£10-£20 max) to unlock the contract phone, and the network operator will often unlock the phone at no charge once the contract is up (it's now your phone, your property, the operator has no legal right to restrict your usage of that phone any longer).

In Mexico it's pretty much impossible to get an unlock code from a carrier. At least I've never been successful when tried. :(

[phreighnq]

What I see as being more of a problem is if the radio for 3G only supports the frequencies of T-Mobile's network and not AT&T's then it wont really matter if it can be unlocked because you still won't be able to use the 3G connection with AT&T. Maybe I am not understanding how the radios are designed but if that hardware doesn't work with your provider's network unlocking is irrelevant.

I have an N810 that I have with me almost all the time. I don't mind having a separate phone but can understand why some people might. I think a tablet/phone combination is a good idea to have but would prefer a pure tablet with the same or slightly larger screen as my N810.

[eiffel]

Lucky you! when I wanted to unlock my Orange PAYG phone, they said I'd have to have £20 of credit on, and it would happen within three months!
Orange also asked me for £20 to unlock a PAYG phone. They also said I would have to wait three months, even though I'd had the phone with them for two years (because I hadn't actually registered my details with Orange). So, like you, I got mine unlocked at a dodgy (but legal) back-street shop for £12.50.

Regards,
Roger

[danramos]

Funny. I would really admire a company you had the resources/time to do this. It would suck for end-users (until the hacks appeared), but for a company to invest in learning/altering Linux like that, well... It would be pretty amazing.

Tim

Then you'll LOVE this:
http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/08/12/oh-by-the-way-the-palm-pre-phones-home-with-your-location/

Wasn't WebOS based on Linux, as I recall? Also.. Isn't the "phone stack" in Maemo 5 supposed to be called 'ofono'? Is that phone stack opened up as open-source? I'll bet it's nooooot!

and thats why i "love" the usa == world that seems to be the norm in this forum...

still, i would love to see a phone-less device myself, as i have a perfectly fine phone already.

My sentiment exactly.

[sjgadsby]

...'ofono'? Is that phone stack opened up as open-source? I'll bet it's nooooot!

http://git.kernel.org/?p=network/ofono/ofono.git;a=blob;f=COPYING;h=3912109b5cd65a68039d4 73c11c9f7ac2303e06d;hb=HEAD

[Team C]

You can't have everything. If I want a Iphone but don't want to switch to AT&T then I have to pay a premium to get it unlocked and if I then want to use it on T-mobile I will be on edge only as the 3g bands are not compatible. This is how it works in the US market so I don't know what people are complaining about. As far as other countries I have no idea. Here the carriers want a exclusive phone to make people want to switch to them. You can pay an extra $50.00 to only have a one year contract with T-mobile and you can get another new phone at full discount in only 11 months. If you keep your phone in good shape you then can sell it on eBay for what you paid for it. That way you can always have the latest and greatest. This assumes the N900 turns out to be a popular phone. People are selling their used year old G1s for $200+ and $200 was the subsidized price. I am just happy that this phone looks like its really coming out. Bring it on!!

[epertinez]

I would have no problem at all with a device the size of my N800 or even slightly bigger with great video and sound, and also sporting full Phone capabilities.
In fact I would have preferred a bigger screen.

I wouldn't even feel embarrassed placing such device against my ear when making a call. :P

Of course it could always be used hands-free.

The N800 with the paired 3G phone is a bit annoying imo. A fully integrated single device as described above would be ideal for me.
I think the annoyance is simply because you are not used to see the paradigm in that way.

If once connected you could put calls on the tablet, reply to calls, edit your S60/RX51 pim entries, use the phone multimedia files in Canola, etc, you'll simply would HAVE two phones in one. The Big one for winter time (the time you wear big pockets ;-) ) or at home, or when you walk around with a bag to put it on. The small for the rest of the day.

This is the paradigm of headsets for cars. Nobody asks for SIM-integrated phones in cars anymore. You pair your car-integrated headsets to your phone in your pocket.

I don't doubt you'll still preffer a bigger all in one machine. But I think most people could preffer the splitted paradigm once it is understood.

And this second paradigm makes nokia sell two devices a person!!

[dantonic]

I think the annoyance is simply because you are not used to see the paradigm in that way.
...
And this second paradigm makes nokia sell two devices a person!!

No,
The annoyance is because I don't want to have to mess with two devices... a phone which is basically just taking up space, and a tablet to do everything on.

It only makes sense to integrate the phone capability within the tablet itself.

I own an Ericsson TM506 currently, and it is always paired with my N800... even if I could do all my phone calls/sms on my N800, I would still be annoyed because I have to deal with a second device which would basically just be taking up space, has to be charged separately, and is doing nothing except to provide the functionality of the GSM radio.

My only gripe with the tablet coming out is that it seems to be a lot more phone like. I'll pass full judgment when I see it in action, but it appears to be more like an Iphone competitor rather than "The New Tablet with phone capabilities." The latter being what I would have rather seen, and would have used as my sole "bulky" cell phone without thinking twice about it!

I really hope that the RX-51 at least captures the spirit of the N800/N810, because if it captures the spirit of the Iphone instead, I might not buy it at all.

[mrojas]

Also from Engadget:HTC Files Patent for capacitive stylus with resistive accuracy

http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/14/htc-files-patent-for-capacitive-stylus-with-resistive-accuracy/

[anidel]

Then you'll LOVE this:
http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/08/12/oh-by-the-way-the-palm-pre-phones-home-with-your-location/

Wasn't WebOS based on Linux, as I recall? Also.. Isn't the "phone stack" in Maemo 5 supposed to be called 'ofono'? Is that phone stack opened up as open-source? I'll bet it's nooooot!



My sentiment exactly.

That statement on the Pre is not a Palm one, but a Google one as that VERY SAME statement is being asked on my Android phone as soon as I start it up for the first time.

[anidel]

^ I am also disturbed by the direction this device is headed, the attraction of the NIT's to me was the *lack* of gsm radio. I just wanted a wifi enabled PDA equivalent. The PDA is a dying species.

The GSM capabilities made the tablet smaller. No one would ever buy a 4" phone. May be Apple ones...

[nilchak]

Talking about unlocking, I have had my phone (GSM) unlocked by he carrier (T-Mobile) while under a contract here in the USA.

I travel abroad to my home country (india) and I just had to tell T-Mobile that I wanted my phone unlocked to use internationally. First they try to offer you International Roaming but of course who is such a fool ?

They pretty readily agreed to unlock it and they did so in a day.
As long as you can show a valid reason for unlocking, I think they will have to.

Also if the N900 supports tri band or quad band, then I think it will wok on any of the major carriers.
I am thing such a high-end phone should be a quad-band support phone.
Do we know anything about the bands it supports on the cellular radio ?

[SD69]

Talking about unlocking, I have had my phone (GSM) unlocked by he carrier (T-Mobile) while under a contract here in the USA.

I travel abroad to my home country (india) and I just had to tell T-Mobile that I wanted my phone unlocked to use internationally. First they try to offer you International Roaming but of course who is such a fool ?

They pretty readily agreed to unlock it and they did so in a day.
As long as you can show a valid reason for unlocking, I think they will have to.

Also if the N900 supports tri band or quad band, then I think it will wok on any of the major carriers.
I am thing such a high-end phone should be a quad-band support phone.
Do we know anything about the bands it supports on the cellular radio ?It will have quad-band EDGE. It's the 3G bands that we are unsure about.

[nilchak]

It will have quad-band EDGE. It's the 3G bands that we are unsure about.

Aha, thanks for clarifying that - didn't think about the 3G part - true.

[TenSpeed]

According to the FCC filing, the device will support 3G on 900/1700/2100. GSM/EDGE support covers 850/900/1800/1900.

Assuming, of course, that there aren't different versions for different markets...

[dantonic]

Talking about unlocking, I have had my phone (GSM) unlocked by he carrier (T-Mobile) while under a contract here in the USA.

I travel abroad to my home country (india) and I just had to tell T-Mobile that I wanted my phone unlocked to use internationally. First they try to offer you International Roaming but of course who is such a fool ?

They pretty readily agreed to unlock it and they did so in a day.
As long as you can show a valid reason for unlocking, I think they will have to.

Also if the N900 supports tri band or quad band, then I think it will wok on any of the major carriers.
I am thing such a high-end phone should be a quad-band support phone.
Do we know anything about the bands it supports on the cellular radio ?

I've been a Tmobile customer for a while. In my past experience, Tmobile will unlock any phone free of charge after the first 3 or 6 months from purchase. Cant remember exactly but it's one of those.

@anidel
The GSM capabilities made the tablet smaller. No one would ever buy a 4" phone. May be Apple ones...

I'm not so sure about that. In my personal experience, I have lots of friends and family members who when they see my tablet they make comments like: "Wow is that phone?" then I explain what it is and show them it browsing the internet and other fun stuff... and all I get from people is comments about how they wish their phone had a bigger screen.

If I had to guess, for those to whom data capabilities are most important in a phone, a phone tablet with a 4" screen would be a dream come true.
But that's just a guess. :)

[danramos]

That statement on the Pre is not a Palm one, but a Google one as that VERY SAME statement is being asked on my Android phone as soon as I start it up for the first time.

The problem is: On Android, you were asked; On the Pre, you are not asked.

[Texrat]

What is this strange and bad looking font that is being used in Fremantle anyway? Where is the marvelous Nokia font? I am a big fan of the Nokia font, I love it that many applications use it in Maemo... The xterm, for example, uses it in the toolbox. What is this skinny thing they are trying to make us swallow??

I like that font. :p