Still waiting on other shoe...

[deeteroderdas]

So, new RX-51 appears to be near to release. That's good! Specs look nice, etc. Initial rumors are that it will be a T-Mo product. Hmm, I am on AT&T. Well, maybe I can buy it unlocked. Oops, T-Mo uses different frequency band for its 3G than AT&T. Humph. Wonder if Nokia will release a phone for AT&T?

No, I won't switch carriers to get this device. Although I won't sing AT&T's praises, they've never done anything to cause me to seriously consider switching. I guess living in AT&T's hometown (San Antonio) helps.

TANJ.

[tso]

whats stopping nokia from providing a gsm radio that can talk at&t as well as t-mobile bands?

[klinglerware]

Quadband GSM is one thing, 3G support is another.

Nokia has released most of their N Series smartphones unlocked in the US with AT&T 3G frequency support. They have not released any parallel versions with T-mobile 3G frequencies.

My guess is that if this device will remain without a carrier subsidy, they will only produce it with support for one GSM carrier's 3G network and not the other.

On the other hand, since Maemo on a phone is thus far unproven--Nokia may be going with support for only the T-mobile band since it is the smaller carrier in terms of number of subscribers. I suppose that it is less of a risk to "live test" this device on T-mobile, rather than potentially alienating AT&T's larger user base if something does go wrong.

If all goes well, I would presume that more maemo phone devices would be forthcoming that would be usable on the AT&T 3g network.

[tso]

quick guess is that nokia uses radios that have their frequencies set in hardware, and as such need to burn thru the existing stock of non-t-mobile chips before deploying ones that also work on t-mobile.

this based on t-mobile only recently getting its UTMS frequencies, iirc.

[Texrat]

I guess living in AT&T's hometown (San Antonio) helps.

TANJ.

So... how do you feel about their move to Dallas? :D

[deeteroderdas]

So... how do you feel about their move to Dallas? :D

It's funny. When I was stationed in San Angelo, TX in the 80s, I seem to recall that being the headquarters of the late, great Southwestern Bell (RIP). Years later, I'm in San Antonio, where AT&T made its home.

Hmmm, I wonder if there's a move in my future? :D

Seriously, I didn't know they were moving. It really doesn't matter to me. Them being here probably had nothing at all to do with the fairly decent 3G coverage....

[deeteroderdas]

Quadband GSM is one thing, 3G support is another.

Nokia has released most of their N Series smartphones unlocked in the US with AT&T 3G frequency support. They have not released any parallel versions with T-mobile 3G frequencies.

My guess is that if this device will remain without a carrier subsidy, they will only produce it with support for one GSM carrier's 3G network and not the other.

On the other hand, since Maemo on a phone is thus far unproven--Nokia may be going with support for only the T-mobile band since it is the smaller carrier in terms of number of subscribers. I suppose that it is less of a risk to "live test" this device on T-mobile, rather than potentially alienating AT&T's larger user base if something does go wrong.

If all goes well, I would presume that more maemo phone devices would be forthcoming that would be usable on the AT&T 3g network.


Maybe AT&T felt they already had a full plate, pi**ing off iPhone owners...:D

[lardman]

I suppose that it is less of a risk to "live test" this device on T-mobile, rather than potentially alienating AT&T's larger user base if something does go wrong.

Or it's the fact that T-mobile has a worldwide presence, while AT&T is just the USA.

[GeneralAntilles]

Or it's the fact that T-mobile has a worldwide presence, while AT&T is just the USA.

We have recently come to the conclusion that Nokia absolutely does not care about the US market. . . .

I'd switch if I could but, first, T-Mobile coverage (especially 3G coverage) in my area sucks and, second, I'm on a family plan at the moment that includes two iPhones.

[YoDude]

We have recently come to the conclusion that Nokia absolutely does not care about the US market. . . .



Agreed...

If they did they would saturate this market with low cost tablets. They could then use community forums like ours to distribute FOSS software or provide a means with which to BT tether to any and all US carrier subsidized phones.

There are plenty of people in the middle of contracts that have BT capable phones that are not "Smart" phones. Some would jump on the opportunity to test drive "smart" phone features on their current networks without committing to another 2 years of contract.

With an NIT they could also take these new found features with them if they choose another carrier.

[Lord Raiden]

quick guess is that nokia uses radios that have their frequencies set in hardware, and as such need to burn thru the existing stock of non-t-mobile chips before deploying ones that also work on t-mobile.

this based on t-mobile only recently getting its UTMS frequencies, iirc.
Actually, that's not correct. The frequencies they are tuned to and the frequencies they support via the chip are two whole different things. The frequency range is controlled by the chip's IOS. The specific frequencies it transmits on are controlled by software on the device they're installed in. The rest is semantics. :)

[klinglerware]

We have recently come to the conclusion that Nokia absolutely does not care about the US market. . . .



Agree also.

I'm counting on the fact that Nokia's market is really outside of the US in hopes of being able to get this device unlocked and unbranded.

Who knows what T-mobile will try to lock down if they subsidized the phone. Will they disallow VOIP? Will they throw a fit if I tried to put Android on it? I don't want to have to play the cat and mouse game with T-mo/Nokia for stuff as simple as gaining root whenever a new firmware update is available.

[GeneralAntilles]

Who knows what T-mobile will try to lock down if they subsidized the phone. Will they disallow VOIP? Will they throw a fit if I tried to put Android on it? I don't want to have to play the cat and mouse game with T-mo/Nokia for stuff as simple as gaining root whenever a new firmware update is available.

I'd be very surprised if Nokia let T-Mobile fiddle with Maemo very much. If it is unmodified Maemo (as I suspect Nokia would insist) this will signal a bigger change in US carriers than the iPhone or Android ever did.

[qwerty12]

I'd be very surprised if Nokia let T-Mobile fiddle with Maemo very much. If it is unmodified Maemo (as I suspect Nokia would insist) this will signal a bigger change in US carriers than the iPhone or Android ever did.

Agreed (I've had fun debranding and unlocking simple T-Mobile candy-bar phones that aren't nothing special...) but even if, say, T-Mobile did **** up Maemo, it would still be less restricted than a non-jailbroken, SIM free, iPhone.

Also, with Phoenix, normal Nokia phones can be flashed to <whatever version> (and the N8x0s were already using BB5 stuff) so a device running Linux should be no problem whatsoever. :)

[sjgadsby]

I'd be very surprised if Nokia let T-Mobile fiddle with Maemo very much.

I do hope so, but it's not as though previous Maemo devices have never been locked down by a carrier. See:

Problem with N810 Singapore model upgrade to Diablo (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=21450)
Can't Flash N810 bought from Singtel (Singapore) (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=24019)


Did Singtel act without the knowledge and/or assistance of Nokia?

[sachin007]

I wonder if they can lock the software and prevent it being updated from the linux flasher too?

[zerojay]

It's open source, they can pretty much do whatever they want with it... so who knows what's going to happen until the device is in your hands.

I had no idea any of the previous tablets suffered from lock-down before though.

[GeneralAntilles]

Did Singtel act without the knowledge and/or assistance of Nokia?

That'd be my guess (or, perhaps, Nokia Singapore acted without knowledge from Nokia-proper or Maemo Software?).

The lock-down seemed more accidental than intentional, anyway. Mostly it seemed an issue of the update wizard only checking for a limited set of valid version strings.

[qole]

Until I read this thread it never occurred to me that I might not be able to use the HSDPA / phone capabilities of the RX-51 in Canada at all. Can anyone comment on the likelihood of the device being compatible with Rogers (or any other Canadian providers)?

I have a sad, sinking feeling that I'll be forced to use this next device like a tablet... Please reassure me...

I'm pretty vague about the whole issue...

[zerojay]

Yeah, as a fellow Canadian, I'm also worried that either we won't be able to use it as a phone as intended or we might have to wait a year for it to cross the invisible 49th parallel.

[sachin007]

Until I read this thread it never occurred to me that I might not be able to use the HSDPA / phone capabilities of the RX-51 in Canada at all. Can anyone comment on the likelihood of the device being compatible with Rogers (or any other Canadian providers)?

I have a sad, sinking feeling that I'll be forced to use this next device like a tablet... Please reassure me...

I'm pretty vague about the whole issue...

This is straight of the fcc documentation

"Outside of USA and Canada, the transmitter of the device is capable of operating also in
GSM/GPRS/EGPRS900, GSM/GPRS/EGPRS1800, WCDMA900 and WCDMA2100 bands which are not
part of this filing"

Good news!

[deeteroderdas]

Yeah, as a fellow Canadian, I'm also worried that either we won't be able to use it as a phone as intended or we might have to wait a year for it to cross the invisible 49th parallel.

Unless I'm mistaken, you could use the RX-51 as a phone, and probably also an EDGE device. It's the 3G band that is different between T-Mo and AT&T.

So, I guess the question for you (and fellow Canadians) becomes which band does Rogers use?

[deeteroderdas]

This is straight of the fcc documentation

"Outside of USA and Canada, the transmitter of the device is capable of operating also in
GSM/GPRS/EGPRS900, GSM/GPRS/EGPRS1800, WCDMA900 and WCDMA2100 bands which are not
part of this filing"

Good news!

For whom?

How so?

Map of AT&T's 3g band in U.S.
http://www.cellularmap.net/att_850_1900.shtml

[sachin007]

For whom?

How so?

Map of AT&T's 3g band in U.S.
http://www.cellularmap.net/att_850_1900.shtml

Sorry my bad.... i confused 900 for 1900.

[zerojay]

Unless I'm mistaken, you could use the RX-51 as a phone, and probably also an EDGE device. It's the 3G band that is different between T-Mo and AT&T.

So, I guess the question for you (and fellow Canadians) becomes which band does Rogers use?

From Wikipedia:
# GSM/GPRS/EDGE on the 850 and 1900 MHz bands (Also known as 2G GSM, or 2.5G in the case of EDGE)
# UMTS/HSPA on the 850 MHz band (Also known as 3G GSM)

[deeteroderdas]

from wikipedia:
# gsm/gprs/edge on the 850 and 1900 mhz bands (also known as 2g gsm, or 2.5g in the case of edge)
# umts/hspa on the 850 mhz band (also known as 3g gsm)

at&t, iow...

[YoDude]

Until I read this thread it never occurred to me that I might not be able to use the HSDPA / phone capabilities of the RX-51 in Canada at all. Can anyone comment on the likelihood of the device being compatible with Rogers (or any other Canadian providers)?

I have a sad, sinking feeling that I'll be forced to use this next device like a tablet... Please reassure me...

I'm pretty vague about the whole issue...

Rogers and Fido use GSM technology. For that you need an unlocked GSM phone which supports the 1900 MHz frequency at the very least, but it is strongly recommended that it support the 850 MHz frequency as well in order to get the best coverage. (The phone may also have 900 MHz and/or 1800MHz. These bands are used in Europe and Asia, but not North America). All you do to activate service is insert your SIM card into the phone and turn it on. That's it.

Bell and TELUS use CDMA technology. 'Unlocked' CDMA phones are hard to come by, and both companies have policies that they will not activate phones not sold by them onto their respective networks.

From >> http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=37717

(the N900/Rover)...is a 7-band (GSM850/900/1800/1900 and WCDMA Band I/IV(1700)/VIII) mobile phone with GPRS, EGPRS, Bluetooth, WLAN and FM transmitter...


Based on the above... I'm guessin' yeah, it can be made to work on Rogers and Fido with a provisioned/active SIM from the carrier.

I wouldn't jump in right off the bat unless Quim makes you an offer you can't refuse. :)

[deeteroderdas]

My problem boils down to this:

1) I'm not leaving AT&T any time soon (wife just got an iPhone)
2) I need/want a "smart" phone. Actually, I want a "convergence" device, always on the Internet, large screen, etc.
3) Looking at the devices AT&T has available on their web site is depressing. Except, I gotta admit, the iPhone is sexy. I've used my wife's a bit, and the idea of #2 above works almost perfectly for the areas I'm interested in: gMail, FB, gCalendar, etc.


Guess I can go online and look for an unlocked, sexy smart phone which will work on AT&T's network and not cost a crazy amount of money. I know, no subsidy, but we all know we pay for the phone at least 2x, anyway...

So, WinMo is out, Symbian, RIM, etc, I need to know more about. Having a Linux-based phone would be totally sweet!

[qole]

In a Maemo phone, where the whole telephony stack (http://ofono.org/) is open source (http://qole.org/images/oFono-architecture.png) (including the modem plug in), and the hardware is capable of using the bands of any provider, wouldn't it be straightforward to hack the device to use any provider?

What would be the roadblocks to stop or slow hackers from making a Maemo device use AT&T / Rogers HSPA, if not configured out of the box?

[YoDude]

In a Maemo phone, where the whole telephony stack (http://ofono.org/) is open source (http://qole.org/images/oFono-architecture.png) (including the modem plug in), and the hardware is capable of using the bands of any provider, wouldn't it be straightforward to hack the device to use any provider?

What would be the roadblocks to stop or slow hackers from making a Maemo device use AT&T / Rogers HSPA, if not configured out of the box?

Not much. :)

Even if the stack is closed or proprietary and Maemo is executed from within (like WinMo on a Motorola), most of the information to unlock a phone from a specific carrier is already available.

I don't think using the phone will be a problem. It is the lack of Maemo5 "Smart Phone" apps that we have seen that prompted me to advise waiting. :eek:

I mean, that's a big leap of faith for some... Will this $400 ~ $900 device be a full featured "Smart Phone"? Will it be able to sync contacts, appointments, and agendas with a desktop and the web regardless of what flavor OS is used on the other end?

[mobiledivide]

I don't think using the phone will be a problem. It is the lack of Maemo5 "Smart Phone" apps that we have seen that prompted me to advise waiting. :eek:

I mean, that's a big leap of faith for some... Will this $400 ~ $900 device be a full featured "Smart Phone"? Will it be able to sync contacts, appointments, and agendas with a desktop and the web regardless of what flavor OS is used on the other end?

It looks like maemo 5 has a standard iCal calendar implementation which is compatible with lots of calendars, I'm not too sure about the contacts. With a decent calendar and contacts implementation the rx-51 will be smarter than a lot of 'smartphones' out there

[zerojay]

It looks like maemo 5 has a standard iCal calendar implementation which is compatible with lots of calendars

Uh... where did this come from? News to me.

[YoDude]

...I'm not too sure about the contacts. With a decent calendar and contacts implementation the rx-51 will be smarter than a lot of 'smartphones' out there

...and I suppose that's good enough if you ever need to blow out the inventory on New Egg or Buy.com or something. :)

It's a shame though when Nokia accepts "good enough" as a production goal. It seems that mediocrity has a lot of competition. :eek:

So far... all I've seen of a PIM for a future device was a mock-up on harmatten and not fremantle. That mock-up appeared to be advertiser subsidized as I recall.

Any links that you can provide would be greatly appreciated. :)

[qwerty12]

Any links that you can provide would be greatly appreciated. :)

Not strictly links to a PIM solution but there is a calendar API in Fremantle: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/calendar-backend/classICalConverter.html

I can only guess that it would be used by Nokia or it would not be there. :)

http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/non-free/o/osso-icons/osso-icons-default_2.2.43+0m5-betasdk3_all.deb also contains "clock_calendar_alarm.png" (an icon showing a calendar with a "12" on it). All speculation, of course, but it does suggest that there will be, at least, a calendar application.

ke-recv (https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/ke-recv/src/pcsuite-enable.sh), the application which does things based on certain events (USB cable plugged in, memory card inserted etc.), has a script called pcsuite_enable.sh. Speculation, again, but I'm assuming that it means that it will be able to connect with Nokia's PC Suite, pretty much a standard for any modern Nokia phone. And part of the PC Suite is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_PC_Suite#Nokia_PC_Sync

Oh, pcsuite_enable.sh lists "syncd" ;)

[yerga]

Also, hildon-desktop has defined in the code the applications will be in the first screen, and they are:

browser
mediaplayer
calendar
image-viewer
osso-addressbook
rtcom-call-ui
nokia-maps
camera-ui
modest
rtcom-messaging-ui
worldclock
osso_calculator
hildon-application-manager
hildon-control-panel

Moreover, I posted some time ago the changelog of the calendar API, where there are more hints about the sync functions.

[sachin007]

So it is confirmed then..... nokia maps it is?

[debernardis]

So it is confirmed then..... nokia maps it is?

I hope so. I find Nokia Maps 3 a very good app. I hope that the Maemo 5 version will outperform the symbian version...

[lma]

So it is confirmed then..... nokia maps it is?

Anything would be better than !&*@%^ Navicore...

[JayOnThaBeat]

... Will this $400 ~ $900 device be a full featured "Smart Phone"?

If it ends up bein $900, it better fold my laundry and give massages....

[qwerty12]

give massages....

You can get those cheaper from people on the street.

N.B: This may not be legal in all places. Check your laws...

[qole]

Well, we know from the SDK that it will have a vibrator, so it could be used for various types of massage... I think the boxes of such devices tend to show a woman massaging her foot.

[tso]

why do this reminds me of a PS2 game that came with a vibrating usb attachment?

even more odd, in japan it also came with a cover for said attachment, that was supposedly easy to clean...

[zerojay]

why do this reminds me of a PS2 game that came with a vibrating usb attachment?

even more odd, in japan it also came with a cover for said attachment, that was supposedly easy to clean...

That was Rez for the Dreamcast with the "trance vibrator". There's a "game journalist" that wrote about using it inside herself while her boyfriend played the game. Of course, everywhere she goes to get a job these days, everyone's like "oh, hey... you're HER!"

Anyways.. back on topic.

[sjgadsby]

That was Rez for the Dreamcast with the "trance vibrator".

It was the Playstation 2 (http://www.gamegirladvance.com/archives/2002/10/26/sex_in_games_rezvibrator.html), not the Dreamcast.

[zerojay]

I didn't know the Dreamcast version didn't have it included. Thanks.