View Full Version : Nokia Booklet 3G
We kind of lost focus. The point was...
NOKIA RECOMMENDS WINDOWS
To whom are you recommending it ? Everybody ? I sure hope not. If someone REQUIRES windows, it's not a question of recommendation. OTOH, if someone is dumb, or, far more often, lazy, let him pay the extra M$ fee (both monetary and performance/amortization) and be done with it. However, don't rob other users from the *CHOICE* of technically fully possible alternatives, WHATEVER the reason for their preference.
I sure hope they don't recommend any other half baked operating system that won't have 100% hardware\software support on it. And seeing that this press release was intended for 'the rest of the world', recommending the industry standard may be the logical thing to do as well.
Oh, and I bet it's part of their usage license and marketing agreement as well.
Sorry to insist: I'm not aware of anybody positioning Maemo as a vertical OS at Nokia.
You mention rumours in the Internet and I keep referring to Nokia communications. Since you are blaming Nokia on this, please refer to whatever Nokia is saying and doing. It will help you understand. :)
I'm quite sure ragnar and myself make the same use of the term 'devices', meaning 'mobile devices' = fitting in your pocket.
And when I refer to the full announcement in Nokia World I just mean that look at those features, imagine them running with commercial quality in Linux and do your maths. Someone was assuming in this thread that the drivers just work with Linux. Have you checked that is true against this hardware?.
For starters, the promotional video mentions things like "secure corporate email" (where MS has a big stack) and "Nokia Music Store" (I don't know the details, but I guess some DRM is in the play). I'm only looking at the public information today and I don't know more myself, but if you have a slight idea of the technologies involved, developing the same features and user experience with Linux is not trivial.
If you only care about the hardware and Linux that's fine, but that would be a different product than the one announced yesterday. Even if the hardware would be common and decently supported at a driver level.
Espoo888
08-25-2009, 07:36 AM
Guys, this is not a smartphone - Nokia smartphones will run S60 and Maemo 5 starting with the N900. The N900 will be the first of many Maemo 5 devices which represents a massive investment from Nokia and also happens to be awesomely cool :cool:
Nokia's netbook launch comes from a belief that they can make money from this business with the added benefit that they can increase the penetration of their mobile phone services (Ovi Maps, Mail, Files, Music Store, Apps, Sync, etc.)
To quote Nokia: "we are in the business of connecting people"
OK, but if you were Nokia how would you maximise your chances of success in the already crowded and competitive netbook market?
The key is product differentiation, which at first sounds pretty tricky - I mean it's just another intel atom / windows netbook right?
Well here's what they've come up with:
1. Connecting People - Best in class built in 3G/HSPA radios + A-GPS, with hot-swappable SIM card, advanced power management and full software support.
2. Battery life - Best in class battery life - up to 12 hours. Nokia knows a thing or 2 about battery technology and power management.
3. Design & Feature Set - Nokia "industrial design", solid aluminium construction, HD glass screen, HDMI out. Increased "desirability" helps to increase margins.
4. Distribution - Mobile operators are inclreasingly selling subsidised netbooks together with data plans. In Europe 25% of all netbooks are bought from operators. Nokia already has these distribution relationships and the channels are wide open.
The OS has to be Windows in order to compete. Windows has over 80% of the netbook market and rising. The choice of Windows 7 "Netbook Edition" will add some gloss to the launch period as other products still run XP or Vista badly.
I think that they have a real chance of carving out a solid and profitable niche based on their product differentiation and competitive strengths.
The first of two Maemo devices the next 9 months.
How many Android devices the next 9 months?
zerojay
08-25-2009, 08:18 AM
You know... I was going to respond to a few more things in this thread, but the truth of the matter is that it's a lost cause and just not worth it.
Benson
08-25-2009, 08:21 AM
The Atom created the netbook market, not Linux. Linux was in because it was customizable enough to fit into netbook hardware. The same reason why Maemo devices exists, Linux can be made to work on any kind of device, something you can't do with Windows (XP barely fitted in the original netbooks).
Atom had nothing to do with it -- netbooks started with 900 MHz Celerons, and the MID-focused Menlow/Atom program shifted to emphasize netbooks only after they became an unexpected success. And IMO, the cost and size are what made the market, and one of those (cost) was a big driver for Linux as well, forcing MS to trim license prices to get XP on them.
attila77
08-25-2009, 08:22 AM
As Quim said just previously: "Sorry but do you mind specifying your sources? In our communication we are
OK, I must admit to being a bit provocative. I believe Eldar did that longinsh musing of how great a vertical OS Maemo will make for Nokia. I am of course perfectly aware that his... analyses... have absolutely no burden of being actually correct, but I was pondering the same thing. I wouldn't think putting the Maemo UI on a netbook, but the lower layers, APIs, with all the mobility stuff coming in, DID make sense to put under a custom tailored front-end UI to extend the platform for road warriors. Well, apparently not.
always clear that Maemo focuses on touchscreen devices that fit in your pocket."
Hey, I have big pockets. Too bad this kind of hints no 5"+ tablet/mediapad/whatever in the foreseeable future (hey, we have to jump to at least SOME conclusions :) ).
On another note, this does touch on communications a bit. When you keep features as major as cellular voice under wraps, it's beginning to be a real guessing game as to what this Maemo thing will be in the end... It IS kind of funny to tell people, hey I'm developing sofware for an upcoming device for almost a year now. What device, you say ? Well I don't know exactly, but it has a touch screen and fits into a pocket ! I understand *your* reasons for keeping things tight, but please understand the flip side, too.
PS. I do feel the 'Nokia recommends Windows' sticker is cheapish. Sorry.
YoDude
08-25-2009, 09:28 AM
He speaks the truth - I'm spending my first post just to point that ;)
This netbook look incredibly slick. It's like Apple had done a netbook, (but better - the macbooks looks dated already, imo).
And calm down, people. Nokia start shipping Maemo on phones (what would happen sooner or later) and lots of people bad mouth it cause it's "not just a tablet" - tablets are a dying segment, only Nokia and Intel spend money on that - sad but true :(
And now, that they announce a simple netbook, everybody expects it it would have Maemo? Already? Maemo on this thing would be a terrible choice, since nobody besides us knows what Maemo is - and Win7 IS the next big thing, despite we like it or not. And why Maemo, if a full fledged distro like Ubuntu would work much better?
Give the N900 some time... Maemo just got his first baby step in another type of device ;)
^about the best thing said in this thread so far...
This netbook look incredibly slick. It's like Apple had done a netbook, (but better - the macbooks looks dated already, imo).
... and if I might add, a lot of people on this board and elsewhere compare any future smart phone offering to Apples iPhone. Well that horse is already out of the barn and beyond anyones grasp. This Nokia Booklet however, now sets the bar for everyone else to be compared to.
Nokia's build quality and hardware is usually top notch. It is what will eventually set it apart from its competition in this form factor. It needed software on the device that does not detract from this perception. For that, M/S windows fits the bill. Even if the software did suck... it would not be Nokia's problem. :)
Some may also see this as a market dilution for Maemo devices it's not. It is a Market expansion for Nokia into high powered non touch screen devices, imho.
amigokin
08-25-2009, 09:55 AM
I haven't seen anyone complaining about the device's size.
We're talking about the _software_ that's a COMPLETE disappointment.
Without Maemo or Ubuntu, this device is an EPIC FAIL, in my opinion.
A Windows computer is an "EPIC FAIL"? That's a good one!
Do I have to remind you the Microsoft Windows market share? Or Linux netbooks return rates?
Laughing Man
08-25-2009, 10:05 AM
The first of two Maemo devices the next 9 months.
How many Android devices the next 9 months?
That's why I feel Android is going win in the long run in terms of marketshare.
attila77
08-25-2009, 10:16 AM
That's why I feel Android is going win in the long run in terms of marketshare.
Hey, that's apples and oranges. As in, Apple does one iPhone device a *year*, and still isn't the last in terms of market share.
A French blogger, via a German site, just dropped a price for the booklet : 799$ / 559€.
(sorry if it's been posted already, I tried to catch up on the thread in a hurry and didn't see it).
Hey, that's apples and oranges. As in, Apple does one iPhone device a *year*, and still isn't the last in terms of market share.
You're right, they're apples and oranges, but isn't the Android platform is more of a direct competitor to the Maemo platform than iPhone OS or Windows Mobile?
The Android devices are showing that the platform has a lot of momentum. I mean, when the N810 was released, there was a total of no Android devices. The landscape has changed a lot in a year.
The competition have taken leaps the last year. HTC Touch Pro2, Hero, Omnia HD. There are a phones with quite interesting hardware on all the platforms, now. And it seems Android will soon enough be a competitor to this Booklet, too.
I think Nokia does not seem to have sufficient momentum on this platform. It has taken too long to get here and the speed doesn't seem to be changing all that much.
Now, obviously I have opted to go for Maemo and the N810 over all and every alternatives. And I am excited about the N900. But the N810 didn't really have all that much competition, ya? At least I hadn't seen any when I stumbled over the N810. I was actually originally looking to find a cell phone with a good browser. This year, there seems to be a lot more options.
livefreeordie
08-25-2009, 11:03 AM
It makes sense to worry about Android, but lets not forget that:
a) Nokia can outsell every single Android device put together.
b) Android is crippled by design. It's going to look even less appealing on more powerful devices.
c) Even if Maemo has a slow start, Nokia has Debian's huge repositories backing it up.
attila77
08-25-2009, 11:13 AM
The competition have taken leaps the last year. HTC Touch Pro2, Hero, Omnia HD. There are a phones with quite interesting hardware on all the platforms, now.
All I'm saying is that the measure of a popularity of a platform is not the number of devices *released*, but devices *sold*. Sometimes there's a correlation between the two, sometimes there isn't.
PS. If fpp's price info is correct, I take back what I said about the corporate aspect, with that price it IS exec material.
Absolutely, and yet there's a trend here. Look at Nokia here. And these numbers are old, The "Android effect" in 2009 will make this change considerably.
http://static.arstechnica.com/2009/03/11/smartphone-sales.png
JayOnThaBeat
08-25-2009, 11:48 AM
Yes, all cars have gears. And you can make it off the lot in first gear. I didn't choose this analogy anyway.
I didn't say you couldn't make it off the lot... I just said you would notice ;)
livefreeordie
08-25-2009, 11:52 AM
Absolutely, and yet there's a trend here. Look at Nokia here. And these numbers are old, The "Android effect" in 2009 will make this change considerably.
Yet Nokia is staying afloat even with S60. And in 2010, they'll have to compete against the N900.
JayOnThaBeat
08-25-2009, 11:54 AM
Unfortunately, a lot of companies (including Nokia) have very bad and short manuals recently. They only state the obvious. ("Camera: Your phone has a built in camera. Press the button with the camera symbol for high-quality photos.")
HIL-AR-I-OUS!
This thread is about the Booklet (poorly named IMHO).
book⋅let
/ˈbʊklɪt/ –noun
a little book, esp. one with paper covers; pamphlet.
RTFB!
fragos
08-25-2009, 12:03 PM
A Windows computer is an "EPIC FAIL"? That's a good one!
Do I have to remind you the Microsoft Windows market share? Or Linux netbooks return rates?
Market share is so true but I question the Linux Netbook returns. Dell has said there is no difference between MS and Linux Netbook returns.
daperl
08-25-2009, 12:18 PM
Hey, that's apples and oranges. As in, Apple does one iPhone device a *year*, and still isn't the last in terms of market share.
I saw the comment as humor, but the author would have to enlighten us. So here is Nokia with already two phone OS's for their devices. They just announce a product with Windows. Why not at add Android as a third phone OS for their device portfolio? For that matter, what about WinMo as a fourth phone OS? It would really complement the booklet. And it's not as if they couldn't handle the support issues.
Sorry to insist: I'm not aware of anybody positioning Maemo as a vertical OS at Nokia.
I'm quite sure ragnar and myself make the same use of the term 'devices', meaning 'mobile devices' = fitting in your pocket.
I just got this Moblin Zone article (http://moblinzone.com/top_stories/495/34/37/ConnMan_Optimizes_Embedded_Internet_Connection_Man agement) in my e-mail box this morning. It starts with the following paragraph (emphasis mine):
In June 2009 Intel and Nokia announced a partnership to collaboratively optimize Moblin and Nokia’s Maemo Linux OS for Atom-based netbooks, nettops, MIDs, automotive infotainment systems and cell phones. If Maemo and Nokia aren't planning anything other than handhelds, someone better let the folks at Moblin know!
EDIT: Maybe they're planning to call it Moblin for the netbooks and Maemo for the handhelds, with the same infrastructure underneath different UIs.
Texrat
08-25-2009, 01:07 PM
Dismissing users due to their lack of knowledge is not the best way of gaining them.
We can argue about user expectations and education all day long, and that will remain true no matter what.
Texrat
08-25-2009, 01:09 PM
So here is Nokia with already two phone OS's for their devices. They just announce a product with Windows. Why not at add Android as a third phone OS for their device portfolio?
Just watch as Symbian is slowly diminished.
Reggie
08-25-2009, 01:54 PM
A French blogger, via a German site, just dropped a price for the booklet : 799$ / 559€.
(sorry if it's been posted already, I tried to catch up on the thread in a hurry and didn't see it).
Yup, a lot have been reporting that it'll be $799. Unless the carrier subsidizes it to about $99 (or free), I think it'll fail.
skatebiker
08-25-2009, 02:09 PM
The love between Nokia and Intel is starting: http://www.nokia.com/press/press-releases/showpressrelease?newsid=1336683
Windows based :(
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIHWM4liM2g
Well just install (K)ubuntu / CrunchBang or any other penguin on it ... and it runs faster even with only 1GB of RAM.
skatebiker
08-25-2009, 02:11 PM
Yup, a lot have been reporting that it'll be $799. Unless the carrier subsidizes it to about $99 (or free), I think it'll fail.
Lots cheaper than the N97 or N900 and far more powerful !
froid
08-25-2009, 02:33 PM
And don't forget hardware is often more expensive in the EU than elsewhere. I don't think you can just use the exchange rate to compare.
gerbick
08-25-2009, 03:14 PM
I'm sorry. $799 for a netbook with a 1.6ghz Intel Atom processor that can only do 720p, if pushed properly?
Hell no. Nokia is just like Sony... pricing themselves out of the competition.
That's insane. For a $100 bucks more, I can get a better equipped MacBook. Or a much better equipped Dell or... anybody.
$799 USD? What the hell Nokia? I pray that's a typo.
daperl
08-25-2009, 03:28 PM
Just watch as Symbian is slowly diminished.
Even if it's because of my ignorance, I could care less about Symbian. It's been easy for me to avoid since Nokia has yet to have a Symbian offering on smartphone hardware I'd actually want. The specs of the N97 were a fail for me from the beginning, and a small amount of phone OS contraction couldn't hurt. Thanks for all of your contributions Symbian, now, good riddance.
johnkzin
08-25-2009, 03:41 PM
For a $100 bucks more, I can get a better equipped MacBook. Or a much better equipped Dell or... anybody.
For $250 less, you can get a 15" Dell laptop with Ubuntu.
For $400-450 less, you can get a 10" Dell netbook with Ubuntu.
In both cases, it costs slightly more than that to have Windows, if that's your fetish.
While they'll have less battery life, the operative consideration with a netbook is _price_. (and, for that price difference, I can get an external battery charger that will charge both my netbook and my phone, and possibly power a cradlepoint)
At $800, this thing costs twice as much as it should. The person who compared this to "pulling a Sony" hit the nail on the head.
I'm very sure that, in netbook land, I'll be sticking with my existing Dell mini. Their price points and OS choices are exceedingly better that what we know about the Nokia offering so far. Unless the official announcement says something amazingly revealing (like there's a tablet version or a convertible tablet version, AND it comes with Ubuntu or a modified version of Maemo), I think the only mid-range device I'm still waiting to evaluate is the Apple 10" tablet.
at $800... this won't sell. but initial price != street price. so, i dunno.
didn't i see a far more sensible price somewhere, eldarish?
daperl
08-25-2009, 04:19 PM
@johnkzin:
I'm guessing you're at least a part time Mac guy. If so, Snow Leopard is out this Friday. It would be interesting if it installs well on a Dell mini. If so, with SL's Exchange support, Windows on an $800 netbook becomes more irrelevant. And if Apple actually releases a ≥ 10" tablet, it would certainly have Mac OS and not iPhone OS. But that would mean Intel and not ARM, and the rumor is that battery life has killed the project twice already. September could be a really fun month.
nilchak
08-25-2009, 05:37 PM
While I agree with the price (if it is true) being too high for a netbook, I cant understand people who say Windows 7 on this is a EPIC fail and all such.
Quite frankly has lInux (any variant) on a netbook or notebook being an EPIC success anywhere ?
For Asus who popularised the netbook form factor with its EEEPC, they also had to fall back to Windows (after starting with Linux loaded on EEE) to gain mainstream and general user acceptance.
Lets face it Windows is the popular choice of OS. So any company that needs to do viable business has to support Windows. Its plain economics, not religion.
As for Windows 7 ...
I have always used Linux since a long time (staring with Caldera maybe) on my desktops and Laptops. But a recently bought media computer with Vista gave me a whole lot of pain and so I switched to Windows 7 (beta and then RC1). It was a refreshing change to see windows that I liked.
I have since switched out the Ubuntu install from my notebook also to Windows 7 and frankly it runs faster and cleaner. Even Ubuntu of late has collected a lot of flab and has slowed down some.
I have realised its an effective machine that I need, not a statement of freedom that I have to put on my shirt sleeves for all to see.
Laughing Man
08-25-2009, 05:43 PM
It makes sense to worry about Android, but lets not forget that:
a) Nokia can outsell every single Android device put together.
b) Android is crippled by design. It's going to look even less appealing on more powerful devices.
c) Even if Maemo has a slow start, Nokia has Debian's huge repositories backing it up.
Nokia has the beginning advantage right now but as the iPhone has shown, a new competitor can easily catch up if the person on top stagnates (e.g. Windows Mobile).
Android I think is more crippled by carriers, since Google seems to give them more control over the ecosystem..
And true, Maemo has Debian repos. But programs have to be "Maemonized".
johnkzin
08-25-2009, 05:48 PM
@johnkzin:
I'm guessing you're at least a part time Mac guy. If so, Snow Leopard is out this Friday. It would be interesting if it installs well on a Dell mini. If so, with SL's Exchange support, Windows on an $800 netbook becomes more irrelevant.
I'm sort of toying with leaving Mac OS X for Ubuntu, but I still have some Macs.
An Apple Tablet would probably make me reconsider that, or decide to retain some level of hybrid approach.
I wouldn't, though, install OS X on my dell mini, for the same reason I wouldn't install Ubuntu on a random netbook (like the Nokia). It becomes harder to support, and I don't feel like fighting those battles, these days.
And if Apple actually releases a ≥ 10" tablet, it would certainly have Mac OS and not iPhone OS. But that would mean Intel and not ARM, and the rumor is that battery life has killed the project twice already. September could be a really fun month.
Yeah, the rumor is: 6" with iPhone OS X, and 10" with Mac OS X. I definitely AM interested in the 10" with Mac OS X on it, if that becomes a reality. ESPECIALLY if it has Apple's Display port and USB port(s).
But, if the Nokia netbook is getting 12 hours battery life out of a 10" netbook ... why can't a 10" Apple Tablet do the same? One of the thoughts is that Nokia is able to do this by using the next generation of Atom ... certainly Intel is just as willing (if not more) to sell that same next generation Atom to Apple.
And, while I wouldn't install Ubuntu on the metal, I might be more than willing to buy VMWare Fusion and/or Parallels, and install Ubuntu on that. Ubuntu & Mac OS X on a 10" tablet. Great for use during my commute. With a kickstand or dock-like holder, and with my folding USB keyboard (and maybe a mouse), great for use at a meeting. Add Apple's display port, with a VGA adapter, and I can hook it up to my existing KVM switches (at work and home).
What's not to like? Sure, the virtual Ubuntu install would be slow, but I don't do a lot of intensive stuff on my dell mini, either.
YoDude
08-25-2009, 06:36 PM
Yup, a lot have been reporting that it'll be $799. Unless the carrier subsidizes it to about $99 (or free), I think it'll fail.
Because I already own a N810 and have owned a N800 since day 1, I find them perfectly adequate for what I intended them for. At $799 I believe I would pick up one of these instead of spending approximately the same amount (who knows?) on the N900.
If this thing is built like the NIT's it will be like a brick out house. Depending an its moister resistance or ability to withstand liquid spills, its durability will get the attention of service companies who are looking for a low cost alternative to what their field technicians (http://www.motorola.com/staticfiles/Business/US-EN/AB/Field_Mobility_R.html) are using now.
Many are paying 3 times as much for antiquated WinMo devices simply because they will run their management software...
This thing just might take off. :)
And for the Linux purists, there are other ways to skin a cat (http://www.jolicloud.com/) btw...
http://www.jolicloud.com/images/screenshots/take-tour.png
Texrat
08-25-2009, 07:16 PM
but initial price != street price.
Common knowledge, yet you can't tell it from the (over)reactions. :rolleyes:
krisse
08-25-2009, 07:19 PM
And it says:
Doesn't GNU/Linux have windows? :D
It should be MS Windows, because most OVI services doesn't work in any other OS. Sad, but true :mad:
That might be true right now but won't be soon.
All Ovi services are being rolled into one application called Ovi Suite, which will eventually replace all of Nokia's other PC applications:
http://betalabs.nokia.com/ovisuite
Because it's written with multiplatform tools it's going to be released on both Windows and Macintosh, with a possibility of a desktop Linux version (presumably based on demand?):
6. Are you also going to release a Nokia Ovi Suite for Mac?
Yes, a version of Nokia Ovi Suite for Mac will be released at some time in the future.
7. How about Linux?
Nokia Ovi Suite has the tech enablers, but building an linux support for Ovi Suite is not in the scope currently. Naturally we are constantly following how the desktop operating system markets evolves.
The Windows-on-mini-laptops thing is depressing, but Nokia isn't alone in this. This time last year our local electronics shops all sold Linux-based laptops alongside Windows models with relatively similar prices. Now there aren't ANY Linux-based laptops in any shop near me, and most mail-order shops have stopped stocking them too. The few that do stock them charge more than the same model with Windows (how the heck is THAT possible!?).
I smell a rat over why Windows has taken over mini-laptops completely (especially the more-expensive Linux models), but whatever the reason it seems likely that it's the main thing driving Nokia to use Windows on their own mini-laptop.
Texrat
08-25-2009, 07:34 PM
Now there aren't ANY Linux-based laptops in any shop near me, and most mail-order shops have stopped stocking them too. The few that do stock them charge more than the same model with Windows (how the heck is THAT possible!?).
If I had to take a stab at it, based on what I've seen in corporate IT memoranda, I'd say a premium on Linux devices is due to support costs. Yes, I realize it sounds superficially stupid, but organizations run on Windows by default and adding Linux staff is seen as another expense.
Many IT departments are run as profit (not cost) centers these days. That makes a difference.
gerbick
08-25-2009, 09:20 PM
Common knowledge, yet you can't tell it from the (over)reactions. :rolleyes:
MSRP does not equate street price; however when was the last time you saw the MSRP cut in half on day one?
Never. $799 is too much, $599 is too much.
daperl
08-25-2009, 09:49 PM
I'm sort of toying with leaving Mac OS X for Ubuntu, but I still have some Macs.
An Apple Tablet would probably make me reconsider that, or decide to retain some level of hybrid approach.
I'm due for a hardware refresh, and I'm trying to impose the requirement that the end result would be a hardware consolidation. Sorta like you, I'm either keeping two desktops or I'm going OS X with a GNU/Linux VM. I have a good KVM, but I wouldn't mind having a solid reason to stop using it.
I wouldn't, though, install OS X on my dell mini, for the same reason I wouldn't install Ubuntu on a random netbook (like the Nokia). It becomes harder to support, and I don't feel like fighting those battles, these days.
Yes, I choose not to trail blaze much any more, but I have good luck if I use Nvidia and Atheros.
But, if the Nokia netbook is getting 12 hours battery life out of a 10" netbook ... why can't a 10" Apple Tablet do the same? One of the thoughts is that Nokia is able to do this by using the next generation of Atom ... certainly Intel is just as willing (if not more) to sell that same next generation Atom to Apple.
Maybe these new Atoms are the missing piece.
And, while I wouldn't install Ubuntu on the metal, I might be more than willing to buy VMWare Fusion and/or Parallels, and install Ubuntu on that. Ubuntu & Mac OS X on a 10" tablet. Great for use during my commute. With a kickstand or dock-like holder, and with my folding USB keyboard (and maybe a mouse), great for use at a meeting. Add Apple's display port, with a VGA adapter, and I can hook it up to my existing KVM switches (at work and home).
What's not to like? Sure, the virtual Ubuntu install would be slow, but I don't do a lot of intensive stuff on my dell mini, either.
There's no doubt that a 10" tablet with a full OS has my attention, but after that I'm most interested in weight. I would be disappointed if it was more than 1.5 pounds.
attila77
08-25-2009, 10:19 PM
Maybe these new Atoms are the missing piece.
There's no doubt that a 10" tablet with a full OS has my attention, but after that I'm most interested in weight. I would be disappointed if it was more than 1.5 pounds.
Well, it apparently has a (not exactly new) Silverthorne Atom Z530. It does have a somewhat better battery life than the N2xx Atoms usually seen in the cheapo netbooks, but the 12 hours still sounds way too much unless they presume some very artificial use-case (or are for double batteries or somesuch).
As for weight, it's 2.75 pounds (1.25kg).
daperl
08-25-2009, 11:07 PM
Well, it apparently has a (not exactly new) Silverthorne Atom Z530. It does have a somewhat better battery life than the N2xx Atoms usually seen in the cheapo netbooks, but the 12 hours still sounds way too much unless they presume some very artificial use-case (or are for double batteries or somesuch).
As for weight, it's 2.75 pounds (1.25kg).
Sorry, we got off-topic in this off-topic thread. I was talking about the weight of a non-existent netbook sized tablet. If it didn't have a hardware keyboard I would hope it'd be lighter than the lightest netbooks, which are about 2 lbs.
If the Z series can double battery life for similar clock speeds that would be great. Before I saw your post I was reading this:
Why-Is-Linux-Notebook-Battery-Life-Still-Poor (http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/09/08/25/157209/Why-Is-Linux-Notebook-Battery-Life-Still-Poor)
A tanget of the off-topic in this off-topic thread.
verumgero
08-25-2009, 11:21 PM
MSRP does not equate street price; however when was the last time you saw the MSRP cut in half on day one?
Never. $799 is too much, $599 is too much.
I really have to agree. I have toying with the idea of getting a netbook but $799 is a little rich for my blood. That's as much as I paid for the monster of a laptop I have right now.
If I had to take a stab at it, based on what I've seen in corporate IT memoranda, I'd say a premium on Linux devices is due to support costs.
When Dell came out with the Minis the Ubuntu-preloaded versions were list priced comfortably cheaper than the XP-on-extended-life-support ones, with software tech support outsourced to Canonical IIRC. Unfortunately outside their direct sales, the channel invariably only discounts the XP preloads (which could be telling in a way...).
There's much more to it than support costs though when manufacturers (or actually more like relabellers of Taiwanese ODM produce) even try and refuse to sell "their hardware" without an OS, althought that would naturally mean they wouldn't need to carry any cost for software support either.
Also based on my own admittedly limited experience as tech support, modern Linux installs tend to be "fire and forget" while the average non-pro Windows user is plagued by OS and driver reinstalls, virii and malware plus the occasional catastrophic data loss.
But back to the "Booklet 3G".
With this clean aluminum design and by jumping straight on the Microsoft Windows Seven gravy-train (although who gets the gravy is another issue) Nokia might attempt to take some thunder out of Apple's likely future inetbookish offering.
Even the battery might be Apple-style non-user-replacable one, because there's no way the thumb-thick hinge version in the PR photos will power even the lowest-power Intel CPU for 12 hours using any current mainstream battery tech, let alone standard power cells.
Apple's styling department wouldn't find that massive bezel acceptable though, for a premium-priced product.
Maybe it's a Nooklet for the crannies (as in niches) rather than one for the centre stage (aka mainstream).
Yeah, that price point is insane. More than anything else, it intrigues me.. I wonder how Nokia plans to justify the price point. I'm very curious of how they'll be marketing this device or if there's any significantly valuable part of it that is still unannounced.
daemonforce
08-26-2009, 04:33 AM
The Atom created the netbook market, not Linux. Linux was in because it was customizable enough to fit into netbook hardware. The same reason why Maemo devices exists, Linux can be made to work on any kind of device, something you can't do with Windows
If I can afford to license it, it can be made.
The netbook market started with cheap Celerons and Chompers. The market completely died after all the Pentiums and Turions started running around. A few thousand hardware failures later, we're back to Celerons but they're now competing with weird achitectures like ARM that will eventually give x86 the foot.
XP barely fitted in the original netbooks.
You're doing something wrong. Absolute minimal XP in MiniNT mode is 30MB with as much scrapping as possible. Inherently useless, but you get the idea. Most of my MiniNT builds run the gambit of 220MB with full application support. Mind you, this has nothing to do with the XPE system and was made entirely on my own time. Either way, I cannot continue work on an OS that I can no longer use. If you still doubt the possibilities, you should look into the linux source rebuild of Windows.
No that's not a joke. :\
Microsoft Office 07 can be trimmed to halfway between a pocket CD and a full CD capacity(~500MB). Network support, Skype, WinImage, IzArc and ArtRage would put the system drive just under 1GB usage. Not only does this make an Internet tablet a very feasible and productive school/business device with heavy uptime, it also slams EVERYTHING ever discussed at the PDC for the past 10 years or so continuing down a path that no one wants. This is where the design becomes fun:
Since the main disk should not be journaled, something like FAT can be used. Make the main disk a non-moving 2GB flash device. Then make the additional disk another flash disk or a moving 4/8/12GB disk. Anyone that accesses and transfers large documents frequently understands the reasoning behind this.
It's so incredibly easy to manufacture and use. It's easier yet to qualify the productive design and yet no one has looked into this strategy. The idea is that you want people to buy a product that users like, understand and can rely upon. When you use a bad hardware list and overprice it, you have a difficult design that does not sell. Is this hard to understand?
at $800... this won't sell.
...Which is exactly why I have no choice but to agree with this.
Market share is so true but I question the Linux Netbook returns. Dell has said there is no difference between MS and Linux Netbook returns.
80% of my returns are hardware related.
The other 20% is bad proprietary software completely demeaning to the product.
That 20% should not exist. Ever.
I can live with maemo despite all the weak hardware. It's not THAT bad. I kind of need the rediculous battery life anyhow. But here's the thing: When you reduce the energy footprint, you begin to see a tradeoff between capability and your actual productivity. If you're always waiting on weak hardware, you need to stop because it's killing you. Move on.
But, if the Nokia netbook is getting 12 hours battery life out of a 10" netbook ... why can't a 10" Apple Tablet do the same?
Look at the energy footprint on the Apple modbook and then compare it to any generation Apple notebook.
See the difference? Me neither. A good battery we have not. o_O
NOW compare it to an eee PC. Take note in device temperatures, I/O loads and other fine details. It's all the little things that matter.
I say just take the Nokia N8xx series hardware list as a base blueprint, raise the screen size(and framebuffer), and raise the CPU/GPU consumption footprint to about 1.6x that of the N810(requires new hardware). Sure I'll only see 5 hours of battery life with this new prototype but I won't be waiting the other 3 hours I would otherwise due to CPU/GPU lockups. I'm not saying put my 3.2GHz PII in it but make it feasible to use without the lockup frustration. THEN start playing with battery design. ;)
For CPUs the x86 Chomper is probably the oldest start. Win95-Longhorn4074 is good for it though. I guess this says a lot about power/design. A Pentium M is newer and eats far more energy(never thought I would say that) but I could definitely survive on it. Celerons and Turions have the speed/wattage issue that kills the purpose of the device. Sticking with ARM is definitely a step in the right direction. So keep doing this. <3
froid
08-26-2009, 09:43 AM
Really I can see why many people here would complain about the Booklet. This is a place where linux heavy first adopters and tinkerers frequent. The Booklet is not really for us here, it is mainstream fare.
I had a 770, I still use my N810 almost daily, but I am not a linux guy by any means. I am just a power user who tinkers a little. (I was the guy who first made the ATHF startup screens) I would never look at this Booklet to replace my N810.
However I have been in the market for a netbook or laptop as a secondary more portable PC for home...specifically for the wife and kid to use so I can actually get on my home PC. The Booklet fits the bill perfectly, a netbook with extras and Windows 7...with Nokia E series design and build quality. I have been waiting for a compelling netbook to come out and am pleasently surprised it came from Nokia.
froid
08-26-2009, 01:17 PM
Does this mean we will be seeing hot-swapable SIM cards in our phones soon too? I am walking along with my N900 in my pocket ready to receive calls, get where I am going and swap the SIM card to the Booklet to logon to email and then move it back again?
Could the 12 hour battery life mean Intel's Pine View Atom chips?
attila77
08-26-2009, 01:23 PM
As Quim said just previously: "Sorry but do you mind specifying your sources? In our communication we are always clear that Maemo focuses on touchscreen devices that fit in your pocket."
Which vertical OS are you referring to? Has Nokia ever said that for instance Maemo would be a vertical OS?
Just to return to this for a moment. I knew I wasn't hallucinating, ran across this when searching for some specs:
Intel and Nokia Announce Strategic Relationship to Shape Next Era of Mobile Computing Innovation
SANTA CLARA, CALIF., and ESPOO, FINLAND, June 23, 2009 – Further uniting the Internet with mobile phones and computers, Intel Corporation and Nokia today announced a long-term relationship to develop a new class of Intel® Architecture-based mobile computing device and chipset architectures which will combine the performance of powerful computers with high-bandwidth mobile broadband communications and ubiquitous Internet connectivity.
...
The effort also includes technology development and cooperation in several open source software initiatives in order to develop common technologies for use in the Moblin and Maemo platform projects, which will deliver Linux-based operating systems for these future mobile computing devices.
I understand 'new class' might mean something different, but that's the price of vague statements - people can and will misinterpret them.
I really don't see the point of putting a 3G chip in a netbook; isn't tethering a reasonable way to get mobile data to the netbook? And it isn't like people are going to use the netbooks like phones; if they did, we'd see everyone using VoIP apps from their laptops in the cafe. But they don't, they use their phone to talk.
I'm dreaming into the distant future, of course, but it seems to me the best solution for form factor issues is to have a "netbook" that is just a docking station for your handheld device. It has a big screen, a big keyboard, some extra expansion ports and a big battery, but that's about it. You have to snap in your handheld to actually use it. Your handheld is the "brains" of the netbook.
You would need a headset for this, because if you get a call while your handheld is docked, it will be awkward to yank it out and hold it to your ear.
mrojas
08-26-2009, 01:55 PM
@qole: Around here in the emerging markets, rarely you get a phone with an unlimited data plan. You have to add the unlimited at a hefty cost. However, you can buy a separate SIM with unlimited data, which comes in a generic 3G module which is connected to the PC through USB and used as a modem.
So this way you could skip the USB module and just insert the SIM in the netbook.
Texrat
08-26-2009, 01:58 PM
Operating Systems:
Tools, not Religions
mrojas
08-26-2009, 02:07 PM
Operating Systems:
Tools, not Religions
Preach it brother! ;)
@qole: Around here in the emerging markets, rarely you get a phone with an unlimited data plan. You have to add the unlimited at a hefty cost. However, you can buy a separate SIM with unlimited data, which comes in a generic 3G module which is connected to the PC through USB and used as a modem.
So this way you could skip the USB module and just insert the SIM in the netbook.
So it is cheaper to have two SIMs than to have one?! :confused:
mrojas
08-26-2009, 02:23 PM
So it is cheaper to have two SIMs than to have one?! :confused:
Pretty much. Just so you see how effed up carriers can be in the good ol' developing world.
Edit: When I got my E71 (more than 6 months ago) I researched the prices, they may have changed by now, but then they were:
$30 for a paid voice plan, which includes 50 SMS, 100 minutes of free calls. Above that, you get charged. (this is my current plan).
$45 to add unlimited data to my plan (unlimited, of course, is actually limited to 1Gb).
$29 for the USB 3G module with SIM with the unlimited data plan (1Gb applies too). Voice calls can't be made through the SIM (I tried!)
3G speeds are around 100-200 Kb/s, sometimes and very rarely, 400 Kb/s, with constant and full coverage in the main cities and outskirts. If there is something people don't complain about here, is the quality and extension of the cell network coverage.
Operating Systems:
Tools, not Religions
If there's a 'thanks' button, i'd be worshipping you :D
mrojas: That's totally crazy. I can't see that pricing structure remaining that way for much longer, as new and powerful devices with voice and data capabilities come out.
mrojas
08-26-2009, 02:50 PM
mrojas: That's totally crazy. I can't see that pricing structure remaining that way for much longer, as new and powerful devices with voice and data capabilities come out.
The 5800 Xpress Music (that arrived here last month) came with a $60 voice and unlimited data plan. I think the unlimited came thanks to some influence from Nokia: we got bombarded with ads (similar to what happened with the N95) showing the good graces of the 5800, 3G and "Internet everywhere". Regular TV, radio, and billboard Nokia ads are not rare at all, with Nokia even organizing concerts, parties, etc Nokia is seen here as the herald of progress and new technologies: the iPhone arrived very late, after lots of power users had the N95 already, and got nicknamed as the "phone for fags", "real men use Nokia", etc
I didn't grab the 5800 because the carrier wouldn't allow me to transfer my number to the new chip (...), but a friend did. It came with the first firmware, and carrier locked on top of that. Obviously, I hacked it and upgraded it.
Before the 5800, unlimited data plans were available only to Blackberries, and only if you were buying them throuch a corporate contract (a regular guy couldn't buy them).
The competing carrier also announced last month the iPhone and E71, to go alongside the Blackberrries in the corporate portfolio, and available too to regular users. My corporation let people chose between those, and most guys in Engineering went with the E71 and most sales guys with the iPhone (the iPhone being twice the price of the E71). Off course, eventually I had to hack/unlock the E71's and jailbreak the iPhones...
I'm dreaming into the distant future, of course, but it seems to me the best solution for form factor issues is to have a "netbook" that is just a docking station for your handheld device. It has a big screen, a big keyboard, some extra expansion ports and a big battery, but that's about it. You have to snap in your handheld to actually use it. Your handheld is the "brains" of the netbook.
Well I'd still rather have a standalone lightweight netbook, with nice sized screen and keyboard, but with ARM-like power-sipping brains and just enough SSD for storage.
However it'd be nice if I could "tether" my handheld (phone or other devices) easily and automagically to share its cycles (and storage of course) with the active device. And vice versa. Obviously smaller devices would gain bigger benefits from such instant Beowulf clustering!
Who's gonna patent that? Here would be something for the OSS gurus to figure out, using e.g. UWB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband) and some D-BUS, Avahi etc. smarts. :cool:
Maybe install Beowulf clustering software on both devices?
...Could you imagine a Beowulf cluster of those?
gerbick
08-26-2009, 09:06 PM
Maybe install Beowulf clustering software on both devices?
...Could you imagine a Beowulf cluster of those?
No, I cannot. Rather have something with some power in a cluster.
no, i cannot. Rather have something with some power in a cluster.
... :-|
JayOnThaBeat
08-27-2009, 02:31 AM
...automagically...
My new favorite word.
Awesome.
:)
ColdFusion
08-27-2009, 07:01 AM
Operating Systems:
Tools, not Religions
Like all tools one should know how to use them.:D
johnkzin
08-27-2009, 07:22 AM
Operating Systems:
Tools, not Religions
And the first rule of tool use is: always pick the right tool for the task.
I'll let you know if I ever find a task for which the right tool was Windows.
johnkzin
08-27-2009, 07:39 AM
Obviously smaller devices would gain bigger benefits from such instant Beowulf clustering!
Rather than clustering, I'd rather see something more like VMWare ESX's migration of guest host/OS images among devices (v-motion). Run my common tasks in a guest host VM that is light weight, but does the general user stuff (web, email, IM, notes, etc.).
When I'm at my desktop at home, and I need to hit the road, I v-motion that guest over to my phone. If I need to check something while mobile, can do the basics on my phone. If I get to a coffee shop (or a meeting, or a library, etc.), I take out my netbook, and v-motion the guest over to the netbook. When I'm ready to get on the road again, v-motion it back to my phone. When I get to the office, I v-motion it from my phone over to my workstation.
And if the "VMware Player" type infrastructure that makes this possible decouples the display from the compute engine, then maybe you could also (while sitting at your workstation) fire up a heavier weight task, and it would immediately v-motion the CPU/RAM/etc. over to a big compute farm, transparently hiding that from you (ie. you keep using your workstation's display/keyboard/mouse without any changes, except maybe a slight flicker when the v-motion happens).
Of course, that requires a UI that will scale from the phone up to the workstation. Or a UI infrastructure that can instantly morph from a phone sized UI to a workstation sized UI (imagine for a second, ignoring the CPU architecture, the same application -- not two separate copies, but the _same_ application, running on both an iPhone and a Mac, but having an iPhone UI on the iPhone, and a Mac UI on the Mac -- you can actually almost do that with Cocoa, but I don't know that anyone has really pushed that possibility very far), so that your applications don't miss a beat when you v-motion from desktop to phone, but they do instantly take on the UI of the new environment.
But, without that, you'd either have to get used to a tiny desktop on your phone, or a giant palmtop on your desk. Or something in between (that wont be very good in either environment). Though, the new Sharp device being talked about over in the Competitors forum has what looks like a mostly typical Ubuntu environment (with one of the NBR launchers) running on a 5" screen. If they fix the bug about easily moving back and forth from conventional Ubuntu to NBR ... then maybe that would be the type of glue it would take.
And the first rule of tool use is: always pick the right tool for the task.
I'll let you know if I ever find a task for which the right tool was Windows.
At a guess : you don't make a living in the anti-malware software industry, do you ? :-)
Texrat
08-27-2009, 11:22 AM
I'll let you know if I ever find a task for which the right tool was Windows.
No problem.
Want some suggestions? :D
zerojay
08-27-2009, 11:41 AM
Average FUD spreading TMO user yesterday: "OMG, no Linux on Nokia netbook?!? LINUX IS OVER!!!"
Average FUD spreading TMO user today: "Nokia's putting out a what? Netbook... wha? Who cares? N900 baby!"
johnkzin
08-27-2009, 01:59 PM
No problem.
Want some suggestions? :D
Go ahead. Give it a try :-)
Texrat
08-27-2009, 02:09 PM
Go ahead. Give it a try :-)
LOL... I have to assume your needs are dramatically different than mine. ;)
Operating Systems:
Tools, not Religions
Actually they are religions: there's no other explanation people keep using windows
Texrat
08-27-2009, 02:14 PM
Actually they are religions: there's no other explanation people keep using windows
Sure there is: Inertia. Investment. Not to mention all of my professional needs still unmet on other alternatives...
mrojas
08-27-2009, 02:14 PM
Actually they are religions: there's no other explanation people keep using windows
Funny, I thought that the fact that 90% of my corp apps are Windows based would be an explanation...
mrojas
08-27-2009, 02:15 PM
Sure there is: Inertia. Investment. Not to mention all of my professional needs still unmet on other alternatives...
///thanks!!
geneven
08-27-2009, 02:21 PM
Well, I dumped Linux on the computer I'm typing on, and am just running Win 7 here. BUT... there is sort of a moral dimension to running operating systems that aren't proprietary. Proprietary software makes the world a big mystery; you can't change it and its object is to hide from you how it works.
So, if you like a world that is alienating and mostly owned by someone else, support proprietary operating systems. If you want something that you can tinker with and understand, support non-proprietary.
It's a religious imperative.
Texrat
08-27-2009, 02:33 PM
I support both.
It's a democratic imperative.
johnkzin
08-27-2009, 04:53 PM
LOL... I have to assume your needs are dramatically different than mine. ;)
That, or I'm confident that all of your tasks are satisfied by applications, and not operating systems. The application being the "tool" that is "the right tool for the job". Not the operating system.
Texrat
08-27-2009, 05:07 PM
That, or I'm confident that all of your tasks are satisfied by applications, and not operating systems. The application being the "tool" that is "the right tool for the job". Not the operating system.
Chickens and eggs, John.
If the apps aren't available for the OS, then that OS is for all practical purposes useless for those dependent on said apps.
JayOnThaBeat
08-27-2009, 05:16 PM
And the first rule of tool use is: always pick the right tool for the task.
I'll let you know if I ever find a task for which the right tool was Windows.
Actually they are religions: there's no other explanation people keep using windows
This reminds me of elementary school, running around yelling "Power Rangers are gay!" because I wanted to make fun of the kids who still watched the show after I grew out of it. It didn't serve a real purpose, except to try to make myself feel as if I was better than the (gay?) kids who still enjoyed the show.
I just don't get the windows hatred. I think windows is great. Linux is also great. The Mac OS is probably great as well. They all have their pros and cons.
My point is, what's the point of the bashing? If you have no use for it, don't use it. You're never going to convert people against something they like.
If anything, use this energy to spread the word about the exciting power of Linux to those who don't know about it.
johnkzin
08-27-2009, 06:33 PM
Chickens and eggs, John.
If the apps aren't available for the OS, then that OS is for all practical purposes useless for those dependent on said apps.
Right. So, which apps that you use _only_ run on microsoft, without a just as useful and usable (or more useful and usable) and interchangeable version on Mac, BSD, Linux, and/or the Cloud?
For example, some people would say "MS Project", which itself doesn't have Mac, BSD, Linux (or Cloud that I'm aware of) versions... yet there are other project software packages that are just as good, and will read/write MS Project files. I've done entire projects where the management people above the project were all using MS Project, and the Project manager and I (if I wasn't the project manager) were using a Mac package instead. The management folks never knew the difference. So, there was no connection between "best tool" (since the tools were interchangeable) and "OS platform".
I just don't get the windows hatred
Too many things are forced on you (well, on me at least) in the name of this reli^H^H^H^Hoperating system.
If it was just a matter of everyone using what he likes, without somebody putting sticks in your wheels because of your choice, there would be no hatred.
Texrat
08-27-2009, 10:29 PM
Right. So, which apps that you use _only_ run on microsoft, without a just as useful and usable (or more useful and usable) and interchangeable version on Mac, BSD, Linux, and/or the Cloud?
For example, some people would say "MS Project", which itself doesn't have Mac, BSD, Linux (or Cloud that I'm aware of) versions... yet there are other project software packages that are just as good, and will read/write MS Project files. I've done entire projects where the management people above the project were all using MS Project, and the Project manager and I (if I wasn't the project manager) were using a Mac package instead. The management folks never knew the difference. So, there was no connection between "best tool" (since the tools were interchangeable) and "OS platform".
SolidWorks
Pro/ENGINEER (although not in a while)
No native Mac versions, and people report numerous problems on emulators.
And, really, if I were inclined I could go on and on and on. I have hundreds of apps, use dozens at any given time and most are said to run poorly in emulators if at all.
The tools we use in professional environments are rarely the tools we choose but rather those chosen for us. Now, one *could* start a silly tangent over how we have a choice in careers, companies, etc but that would be another pointless chicken and egg exercise.
But I'm surprised you even have to ask that question. It suggests to me a surprising lack of familiarity with the subject. This is well-covered ground... and a fruitless argument IMO.
dormant
08-27-2009, 10:40 PM
Right. So, which apps that you use _only_ run on microsoft, without a just as useful and usable (or more useful and usable) and interchangeable version on Mac, BSD, Linux, and/or the Cloud?
ArcGIS: No Mac version except for crappy java ArcExplorer. And no half-decent Linux GIS software, and none which does shapefiles. A major gripe with me.
Office suite that reads latest MS Office formats, although this should come soon.
Can we get back on topic please?
ColdFusion
08-27-2009, 10:45 PM
I'm going to go further, it's not about the OS or the Application. It's about the formats. If you're using open standarts you can change OSes and programs at your will, and not have your files held hostage by some software company.
But it will soon be universal to use open standarts on everything. Hell even the music and ebook industries are killing the drm right now.
You can thank the "religious nerds" for your new freedom then. Until then, "just use your tools", but try not get too much in bed with proprietary stuff or you'll wake up to disaster one day.
Texrat
08-27-2009, 10:48 PM
I'll be holding my breath.
johnkzin
08-27-2009, 11:46 PM
ArcGIS: No Mac version except for crappy java ArcExplorer. And no half-decent Linux GIS
GIS meaning Geographical Information System data software? So the task is working with GIS data? ... our GIS group swears by a Solaris GIS package (my group maintains some of the servers as an inter-departmental cooperation agreement, but we only maintain the OS, so I have no idea what GIS application they're running on top of Solaris). Why is ArcGIS the best tool for working with GIS data, as opposed to something like Quantum GIS? uDig? PostGIS? Chameleon? GRASS?
And, with ArcGIS, what's wrong with the non-Mac/non-Linux versions? (they appear to have, or had, Solaris and HPUX versions)
Office suite that reads latest MS Office formats, although this should come soon.
MS Office doesn't read them? I haven't encountered an MS Office document that MS Office for the Mac can't read. It's one of the few reasons I still have my home Mac.
SolidWorks
Pro/ENGINEER (although not in a while)
No native Mac versions
So, the task is "CAD/CAM/CAE 3D Design" ... and you're telling me that there's no such tools on the Mac? like NX? BRL-CAD? CATIA?
Or are you telling me that those two are better than NX? and any of the other Mac/Solaris/HPUX/AIX/BSD/Linux available 3D CAD/CAM/CAE packages?
I'm seeing several that can interchange files with the above programs, at the very least... but I honestly don't know where they stack up feature per feature.
Or, as I point out below, are you saying that they were chosen for you, so you didn't have the option of finding the best tool for the job?
The tools we use in professional environments are rarely the tools we choose but rather those chosen for us.
Which is NOT you choosing the best tool for the job, it's a tool (best or not) being chosen for you, from above/outside/whatever. BIG difference.
But I'm surprised you even have to ask that question. It suggests to me a surprising lack of familiarity with the subject. This is well-covered ground... and a fruitless argument IMO.
I'm familiar with the argument. Heard it hundreds of times. It's an old saw, practically. I have seen one or two EXTREMELY niche cases (both were very specialized music programs) where it's true. I haven't encountered any general situations where it's true. In those cases it's always my experience/observation that "it was imposed from above" or "that's what every one chose, so that's what we chose", with no actual evaluation of "the best tool for the job".
dormant
08-27-2009, 11:58 PM
you win ........................................
gerbick
08-28-2009, 12:02 AM
Actually they are religions: there's no other explanation people keep using windows
Give me MS Office 2007 (I'd rather not support it), Adobe Photoshop (hell, gimme the entire Adobe Creative Suite 4), proper printing (PostScript Level 2 and higher) , Autodesk 3ds Max or Modo 401... and not crappy psuedo-knock-off wannabes and I'll stop using Windows or OS X.
Linux has had 10+ years, hasn't happened yet. Won't happen tomorrow. So that's some people still use Windows.
Not all tools have been migrated, ported, approximated or replaced with better options...
johnkzin
08-28-2009, 12:07 AM
Autodesk
I do miss the days when Autodesk was multi-platform...
mrojas
08-28-2009, 12:31 AM
I understand the position some Linux/*nix/alternative platform supporters have on the different platforms of the market. From an engineering point of view, the Windows platform is inferior and problematic, and maybe even simply boring.
It is not the first time the "inferior" product, or tech with less features gets the hold of the market. Happened with FireWire versus USB. Betamax versus VHS. <insert your preferred network here> versus Ethernet. Smartphones/iPhone. CP/M-86/UCSD p-System versus PC-DOS. SPARC versus x86. There are many more examples, but those I get from the top of my mind.
Many times the winning tech gets the upper hand not because of its inherent superiority, but because of market forces (be it price, availability, user appeal/marketing, etc). And that can be infuriating. I completely get it, everytime an iPhone user comes to me excited and show me some "new" feature that I had already on my E61 years ago. You get also some "elite" satisfaction... knowing you are years ahead of what the common user thinks is new.
However, the truth of this game is that the mass market is not a meritocracy. Probably will never be. Entire business cases (and very successful ones) have been built around the fact that the a lot of users wants the slickest, fool-proof, easiest, and comfortable solution, without caring a lot for what is inside. That a lot of users just don't care about the tech they use. They only want a black box.
What I don't get is what these group of supporters want to do about it. Do they want Linux to triumph? To obliterate the competition, with them at the vanguard? To get at least more credit and recognition?
If so, then you will have to court the mass user, not dismiss them. You will have to be patient with the mass user and spoon feed them. You will have to offer more than the competition, way more, for less. You will have to climb a very steep hill. You will have to use market tactics. You will have to understand that elements that you think you have in favor are of little or no value to the average user. And yes, it sucks.
You will have to get those big and evil corporations on board as well.
All that comes for a price. Maybe some governance over the system will be lost. The system can become so massive that it will not have anymore the aura of "only the elite knows to use it" that feels so good. Maybe the triumph won't come at all!
If someone is willing to do that, despite all the work involved on it, then my best wishes and good luck! I'll give a hand when and where I can. And take a look to Ubuntu, because those guys know what they are doing.
If not, shut up already. Whining doesn't take you anywhere, and no one wants to listen to it anyway, so don't waste your breath.
Texrat
08-28-2009, 12:36 AM
John, I get the feeling you're deliberately ignoring some important points. Like where I said I was OS agnostic. Maybe you're looking for a win in a no-win argument.
Ok, like dormant said: you win.
But the objective reality is, you went one way, others went a different way, and it is what it is. There is no reason I can see for such religious hatred. But you're certainly entitled.
Can we discuss the netbooks without further hostility?
Texrat
08-28-2009, 12:37 AM
mrojas, here's where I wish I could reciprocate with those thanks. ;)
johnkzin
08-28-2009, 12:59 AM
Can we discuss the netbooks without further hostility?
The religious aspect, as far as I can tell, came from people getting in my face about refusing to buy a windows product (meaning: they introduced religious intollerance into the discussion, not me). So, if you want to point fingers, and want to stop that part of the discussion, stop being one of the people pushing it forward.
Up until the "right tool" quip, all I did was:
a) say that I refuse to buy it, because (as far as we know now) it only has support from the vendor to run Windows.
b) reply to follow ups about _why_ I'm taking that position.
If you want to buy it, or other windows systems, go right ahead. I honestly don't care, as long as I'm not asked to administrate or support them. But if (the collective) you are going to challenge me on why _I_ wont buy one, expect to hear my full opinion about why _I_ wont buy one. And don't then turn around and act like _I_ am the religious zealot -- that finger pointing goes just as firmly in the direction of people who refuse to accept that some people legitimately wont buy a windows based system. I also don't eat liver, nor listen to opera, does stating those things also get me singled out as a religious zealot?
The only hostility I've seen is: people knee-jerking about me stating my preference.
daperl
08-28-2009, 01:43 AM
I hate Microsoft. There, I've said it now about 6 times in these forums. Should I put it in my signature? Nothing religious about it; just common sense to me. And there's nothing to discuss. Consider it an opinion and move on. Stop whining about people hating Microsoft or their products. I'm here because Nokia created semi-open versions of GNU/Linux based tablets. Period. If these things were running WinCE, you would never have been bothered with me. And if some of you don't get why some of us would be very disappointed with a Nokia Recommends Windows announcement, who cares. But thanks for giving me another opportunity to say that I hate Microsoft.
Cheers!
ColdFusion
08-28-2009, 02:26 AM
The funny thing is we're here on a Linux, FOSS, forum. Why are some of you so amazed to find that there are people here that prefer Linux over Windows?
Isn't it obvious that when presented with a generic win32 netbook we're saying "meh".
Netbooks are ment for couchsurfing, they don't need specialized software or a specific OS. If you have made yourself homebrew docking stations with 30" double monitors at work, home and in the garage, and use the netbook for rocket science... then you're clearly pushing the limits and aren't exactly in the target audience so it's most likely that you'll be able to install whatever OS or software you need by yourself.
Anyway the Booklet doesn't give a Linux option not because Linux fails in some way, but because there's no OVI Suite and Nokia PC Suite which are entirely Nokia software. So it's Nokia fail.
And about return rates... again if you don't know what you buy it's all your fault. You can't run in circles and pretend "people want this and that, they don't care etc."
I find it amazing how a whole culture has it's Personal Responsibility gone AFK (http://bash.org/?627522)! It really stuns me, the same way I can't understand how you put up with everything the big corporations serve you.
gerbick
08-28-2009, 02:28 AM
a lot of jaw jacking about one's loyalty to something or another... when honestly it shouldn't have even come to that.
I pledge my allegiance to no tech companies :D
All they want is my money. And all I want is their tech..
Texrat
08-28-2009, 03:02 AM
The funny thing is we're here on a Linux, FOSS, forum. Why are some of you so amazed to find that there are people here that prefer Linux over Windows?
That isn't where the amazement comes from, CF.
Some are just skimming the discussion and leaping to wildly unsubstantiated conclusions... which again, IMO, serves to illustrate what an asinine waste of time such arguments are.
Back to netbooks, maybe?
ColdFusion
08-28-2009, 03:07 AM
Arguing on the Internet IS a waste of time anyway. ;)
Back to netbooks, maybe?
What about them? :D
attila77
08-28-2009, 04:27 AM
And no half-decent Linux GIS software, and none which does shapefiles. A major gripe with me.
Check again :) GIS is actually thriving on Linux, take a look at www.osgeo.org, it gathers some of the more prominent projects. Granted, there is no Arc-stuff, but featurewise it's not that much far behind, especially if you take into account the web-mapping solutions that originated from Linux. And the price is a bit more competitive than ESRI, but that's not that difficult to achieve ;)
What I don't get is what these group of supporters want to do about it. Do they want Linux to triumph? To obliterate the competition, with them at the vanguard? To get at least more credit and recognition?
No, I just want to use it without some ***** telling me that I need windows if I want to access a public website, to interact with my government, my local administration, or some ***** sending me files in a closed, secret, format and so on.
In other words I don't want windows forced on me, at least at home where I have a choice.
Unfortunately and ironically at work I have to use it since I have to use some tools (again, forced on me, not me choosing the best tool for the job, they're actually quite bad) that only exist for windows, though I also have some time to play with linux.
nilchak
08-28-2009, 03:45 PM
I support both.
It's a democratic imperative.
Well said ! :)
Texrat
08-28-2009, 03:55 PM
Thanks. Some of the comments have been really misguided. The evil is not in commercial enterprise ipso facto-- the evil is in far extremes... and that could include the extreme opposite. ;)
I support both.
It's a democratic imperative.
If a shop doesn't work with your browser/os you can buy from another one.
If your government web site doesn't work with your browser/os you've no other recourse, so the democratic imperative is to get rid of closed formats and browser/os specific public facing applications.
Then, and only then, everybody can use what he prefers,be it windows, linux, macos, bsd or whatever.
The problem is that they "democratically" decide that windows is on 90% of computers, if it works with windows is good enough.
Guess what? Things change. Just a few years ago internet explorer accounted for 99% of the market, and just a few were using alternative browsers (and facing the problems, I still remember many many sites not working with mozilla or simply refusing to be accessed from anything other than IE even if they worked properly), but now mozilla has a sizeable share of the market, in part thanks to those stubborn individuals that kept on using an alternative browser.
You aren't realy free to choose if one operating system is mandatory and we know pretty well that there's no technical reason for it being so, just some ***** that made some "strategic" undemocratic decision.
gerbick
08-29-2009, 06:23 AM
Alternative browser has very little to do with the OS.
I was using Phoenix, then Firebird then Firefox since nearly the beginning. Also was supporting Opera back when you had to pay for it... all because I refused to use Internet Explorer 3.02 and 4.01.
And yes... I was a Windows admin/user then too.
The thing about thinking that a browser has much to do with the OS is quite ridiculous. Before that, you had Netscape, Mosaic, Lynx and since the beginning, options have existed in the browser world.
Same for OS. It's the fanboyism that needs to be removed. So you think that Linux is the best. Great! I'm glad you found an option that made you happy. Too bad it doesn't fit everybody's needs.
Neither does Windows - don't get me started on that one - and neither does OS X. But in the end, they're all just tools that are to be utilized.
Not worshiped. And for the last 15 years, I'm glad to have been part of the 1% wedge from the beginning to disallow Internet Explorer from being 100%. I've always hated it.
ColdFusion
08-29-2009, 06:34 AM
Alternative browser has very little to do with the OS.
Really? Then why doesn't OVI services work on Firefox/Linux when they work on Firefox/Windows.
Too bad it doesn't fit everybody's needs.
Who wants to force Linux on everyone? We're bummed here because we don't have a Linux option on the Booklet. I could care less if you or Texrat buy the Linux version. I want it for myself. So it's actually Windows that's forced (and not only in this product, but like luca said, on websites, file formats etc.) on us, but Windows doesn't fit everybody's needs.
And you can't support both closed and open formats, that's not democracy.
gerbick
08-29-2009, 06:42 AM
Really? Then why doesn't OVI services work on Firefox/Linux when they work on Firefox/Windows.
Ask Nokia. You're barking up the wrong tree dude.
Who wants to force Linux on everyone? We're bummed here because we don't have a Linux option on the Booklet. I could care less if you or Texrat buy the Linux version. I want it for myself. So it's actually Windows that's forced (and not only in this product, but like luca said, on websites, file formats etc.) on us, but Windows doesn't fit everybody's needs.
Get over it. This product, in its current form, isn't for you. Perhaps with some patience, a Linux variant will be produced.
Last I checked, nobody is forcing you to buy anything. This doesn't support your choice, shop elsewhere. Or join others that want it on there. As it stands, whining does absolutely nothing.
And you can't support both closed and open formats, that's not democracy.
And if the demand isn't there, then that doesn't support capitalism.
ColdFusion
08-29-2009, 06:51 AM
Ask Nokia. You're barking up the wrong tree dude.
Like I already said not having a Linux version is a fail on Nokia, not Linux. And anyway it was about your point of browsers having nothing to do with OS.
Get over it. This product, in its current form, isn't for you. Perhaps with some patience, a Linux variant will be produced.
Last I checked, nobody is forcing you to buy anything. This doesn't support your choice, shop elsewhere. Or join others that want it on there. As it stands, whining does absolutely nothing.
But then again, windows software and file formats are forced on me.
And if the demand isn't there, then that doesn't support capitalism.
Capitalism over freedom! Yay!
Anyway, there is a demand like you see in this thread or in most blogs that said "wtf, no linux on the booklet" when it was announced.
gerbick
08-29-2009, 07:28 AM
It doesn't have anything to do with the browser. Ovi doesn't support Linux.
How hard is that to fathom? I mean, seriously.
You're all up in arms about something and want to get your panties in a bigger knot about something that really isn't relevant. A browser just gets you there.
For instance... If there's ActiveX controls on the page, then it means that you should use IE if it doesn't work in FF. Oh, you're on a Mac or Linux? Then ActiveX has nothing to do with your choice of anything other than your OS.
And that's what you seemingly cannot get right now. So I'll waste my last bit of patience with this last bit.
I don't care if you go to the site using Konqueror, Firefox, Opera, or whatever Webkit browser on your choice of OS it won't work at all.
As it stands, Nokia made the damn decision to shut out you Linux users at it's release. Your browser could have been crafted by Loki, the unknown 8th dwarf and Marty McFly, it won't work unless Nokia programmed it to work alongside your decision/choices.
And sadly, you're all up in arms with people that... well, I for one am dead tired of you people whining like you're owed anything.
Don't like Nokia's decision, don't want it to be "forced upon you to use Windows"... guess what. Take your money, take your favorite OS and support what does work for you. Apparently it's not this overpriced piece of **** netbook that doesn't support whatever the hell you're whining about now.
A browser won't help you in this situation. Getting Ovi to work in the OPERATING SYSTEM is your problem. Why can't you get that!?
ColdFusion
08-29-2009, 07:38 AM
Getting Ovi to work in the OPERATING SYSTEM is your problem.
Isn't that what this whole argument in this thread is about. I think you're missing the point somewhere. From the start we're arguing that this booklet doesn't have Linux on it only because Nokia didn't have a Linux version of OVI.
benny1967
08-29-2009, 07:44 AM
So, if you like a world that is alienating and mostly owned by someone else, support proprietary operating systems. If you want something that you can tinker with and understand, support non-proprietary.
I need to write this down. Great way to say it.
I don't believe in a world of tools, pragmatism and survival of the fittest. I believe in values (other than profit). And I want to stay in control of what I depend upon so much in my every day life: computers.
Hi all! This is Samuli Ylinen from Nokia Ovi Suite team.
First: thanks for everybody, who have downloaded the first Nokia Ovi Suite 2.0 Beta, really great to see this interest happening. Keep downloading software, spread the word to your friends interested about Nokia Betas, keep reporting your errors and ideas - it's really useful for us.
Then, couple of comments about Mac and Linux support. As you know, we've implemented Nokia Ovi Suite 2.0 with Qt, but that's for the UI of of Nokia Ovi Suite 2.0 - most of our connectivity is based on technology from Nokia PC Suite and unfortunately, this connectivity technology doesn't yet have multiplatform support.
Then answers:
Mac: We are working for Mac version of Nokia Ovi Suite - so that's coming at some time in future.
Linux: As we use Qt in Nokia Ovi Suite UI, we have the basic tecnology enablers for Linux version available, but building Nokia Ovi Suite for Linux is not in the scope currently. Of course, we are constantly following how the desktop operating system market evolves.
Could you write your comments about Linux support under following discussion topic:
http://betalabs.nokia.com/forum/topic/3210
And comments about Mac support under this topic:
http://betalabs.nokia.com/forum/topic/3219
We will be looking into these and are very interested to hear your comments about these and wishes. I would like to hear following comments:
- which features in Nokia Ovi Suite would be most important for you in Mac / Linux?
- which Linux distributions would be most useful?
--
Samuli
You might want to give feedback straight to the Ovi Suite team about the lack of Linux version..
Yay, Mac OSX before Linux...
Alternative browser has very little to do with the OS.
Tell that to websites that specifically check for firefox on windows, otherwise don't let you in (yes, I saw plenty of those, and if you delve into the javascript to pass after the gatekeeping page, unsurprisingly everything works as expected).
Not to mention sites using activex (those I'd avoid even if I were using IE) or requiring a specific version of flash, quicktime or other crap like that.
Same for OS. It's the fanboyism that needs to be removed. So you think that Linux is the best. Great! I'm glad you found an option that made you happy. Too bad it doesn't fit everybody's needs.
Where did I say that it fits everybody's needs? I just said that I want to use it without some ***** imposing me some windows only technology. That's partially acceptable for private enterprises (after all they're losing a potential customer) but it's totally unacceptable for public institutions.
mrojas
09-02-2009, 05:10 AM
http://www.nokia.com/NOKIA_COM_1/Press/Materials/White_Papers/pdf_files/data_sheets_2009/Nokia_Booklet_3G_data_sheet.pdf
There is the data sheet. The RAM is soldered down? Baaaadddddd
meizirkki
09-03-2009, 01:52 AM
Holy **** 16 cell battery!!! That thing must be really heavy O_O
mrojas
09-03-2009, 02:05 AM
Holy **** 16 cell battery!!! That thing must be really heavy O_O
1250 grams according to the data sheet, or 1.25 kilo.
attila77
09-03-2009, 03:33 AM
Holy **** 16 cell battery!!! That thing must be really heavy O_O
But take a look at the capacity, at 50+ Wh... It even might be a typo, there are 6 cells with that capacity, 9 cells going to 80+ Wh. Weird.
gerbick
09-03-2009, 04:13 AM
What do you guys think about this BetaNews opinion (http://www.betanews.com/article/Netbooks-arent-a-fad-but-the-US-still-wont-embrace-Nokia-Booklet-3G/1251907932)?
mrojas
09-03-2009, 04:54 AM
What do you guys think about this BetaNews opinion (http://www.betanews.com/article/Netbooks-arent-a-fad-but-the-US-still-wont-embrace-Nokia-Booklet-3G/1251907932)?
Random whining honestly. Complains that Nokia is not popular, but at the same time attacks the efforts of Nokia trying to be popular.
I think it's a natural response...
Nokia better come up with some visual and compelling showcases to justify asking for 2-3x the market price of similar products. The differences aren't obvious enough to many people (me included).
mrojas
09-03-2009, 05:06 AM
I think it's a natural response...
Nokia better come up with some visual and compelling showcases to justify asking for 2-3x the market price of similar products. The differences aren't obvious enough to many people (me included).
I think the idea behind the Booklet is to offer with subsidies through carriers. Even if the carrier sells it at $300, it is superior HW than the competitors and it comes with the data plan and stuff.
However, if no carrier picks it...
Well, the competitors have subsidied bundles starting at $0 to $99.
mrojas
09-03-2009, 05:12 AM
Well, the competitors have subsidied bundles starting at $0 to $99.
Oh, my bad, I didn't know those prices. Even worse for the Booklet. And I think I have figured out why the Booklet appears with Aero disabled in its media pictures: perhaps is a battery saving measure, to achieve the 12 hour mark.
TenSpeed
10-02-2009, 11:53 AM
Looks as though the Booklet 3G is being sold exclusively through Best Buy in U.S.A. (and Canada?). Priced at $599, and stock has been received.
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/10/02/nokia-booklet-3g-reportedly-hits-best-buy-inventory-system-at-599-99/
dobondo
10-12-2009, 06:06 PM
What do you guys think about this BetaNews opinion (http://www.betanews.com/article/Netbooks-arent-a-fad-but-the-US-still-wont-embrace-Nokia-Booklet-3G/1251907932)?
Just the opinion of one person. If it's a quality product then people will buy it.
karoliinasalmin
10-12-2009, 07:41 PM
Does anyone know if Ubuntu runs well on it (is HW accelerated graphcis and everything working?)?
nilchak
10-13-2009, 09:18 PM
[QUOTE=mrojas;320718
However, if no carrier picks it...[/QUOTE]
Well, in the USA AT&T has picked up the Booklet with a subsidized price of @299 with contract for 2 years (http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS159105+13-Oct-2009+PRN20091013).
By the blog reactions, it doesn't seem very exciting as most people are unaware of the features.
Of course if this was an Apple with an aluminium body the blog world would have gone ga-ga. :rolleyes:
johnkzin
10-13-2009, 11:19 PM
Anyone know if it runs Maemo yet? or when a convertible-tablet-netbook format version will be out?
@nilchak: yes, i would go gaga over it :D
because...
1. it'll run osx.
2. apple wouldn't release an 'underpowered' netbook as they've said in the past..
3. it'll probably come with nifty multitouch touchpad too.
nilchak
10-14-2009, 10:38 AM
@nilchak: yes, i would go gaga over it :D
because...
1. it'll run osx.
2. apple wouldn't release an 'underpowered' netbook as they've said in the past..
3. it'll probably come with nifty multitouch touchpad too.
Yeah, but you already have all that in the current packages (since Apple wont release "underpowered" [till the market economics says its actually overpowering :) ] netbook ) from Apple, so my point was that Apple fanatics would go ga-ga just over that Aluminium body and herald it as something revolutionary (remember than one casting body that Apple brought out with no other enhancements nearly) ?
I will give credence where it is due (like all of Apple's innovations in software and hardware), but will not jump up and down over a design which takes away from features (one casting body design took away the replaceable battery).
And come-on the Booklet is a netbook - so its not underpowered in ITS category.
DaveP1
10-14-2009, 11:13 AM
And come-on the Booklet is a netbook - so its not underpowered in ITS category.
I agree that it's not underpowered. It's problem is that it's overpriced. You can purchase the same functionality for far less than the unsubsidized price of $599. You can then add subsidized USB 3G (if you can't just tether) which will allow you to use a single data plan for all your computers.
It's nothing special and that's disappointing.
@nilchak: as long as you can hack OSX to run on it, I will pony up the admission fee :D
I agree that currently it's not underpowered in its category, but I was talking about what steve jobs (or someone from apple) said in the past that they didn't think the platform can give good enough performance (or something to that effect). Probably because of all the hardware gfx acceleration that the osx needs.
I also think that the (netbook) category is in need of a performance step up since it's been in that level for.. what.. 2 years now? At least a step up in the gpu like Nvidia's ION is doing.
johnkzin
10-14-2009, 12:36 PM
I agree that it's not underpowered. It's problem is that it's overpriced.
And doesn't have a decent vendor supported OS.
I'd pay the price they're asking, if it ran, say, a netbook optimized version of Maemo.
DaveP1
10-14-2009, 12:41 PM
I agree that currently it's not underpowered in its category, but I was talking about what steve jobs (or someone from apple) said in the past that they didn't think the platform can give good enough performance (or something to that effect). Probably because of all the hardware gfx acceleration that the osx needs.
You'll be happy to know that uber-cool Steve Jobs agrees with unter-cool Michael Dell.
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/173623/dell_slams_netbooks_says_windows_7_is_our_savior.h tml
@DaveP1:
Actually I've been using a 'hackintosh' netbook for travelling (MSI Wind: 10" lcd, atom 1.6ghz, 2gb ram) and it's sufficient for most daily tasks (mail, browsing, IM, irc, ssh, vnc, rdp, bit of online poker, etc... most of those running at the same time.) so although I would never say 'no' to more horsepower, I've found the Atom platform adequate and quite suitable (dimension+weight) for travelling.
matthewcc
10-14-2009, 01:03 PM
It would be awesome if my n900 came the same day that i pick up my Booklet on October 22.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-31012_7-10373747-10355804.html
nilchak
10-14-2009, 01:38 PM
I agree that currently it's not underpowered in its category, but I was talking about what steve jobs (or someone from apple) said in the past that they didn't think the platform can give good enough performance (or something to that effect). Probably because of all the hardware gfx acceleration that the osx needs.
Oh Steve Jobs said the iPhone is the competitor to netbooks (or something to that effect) - since “We don’t know how to build a sub-$500 computer that is not a piece of junk.”
Of course once he saw netbooks selling like crazy- then he said he has some interesting ideas in the netbook category (which then turned into the iTablet rumours eventually).
Anyways, this is not about an iPhone tablet vs a Booklet argument - and even I agree the Booklet is overpriced (but we will reevaluate that when the iTablet comes out again), but it is not underpowered - which you do agree.
Actually apart from the $60 monthly plan for 2 years bondage, I would say the booklet is a attractive up-market netbook for the discerning crowd. Its not as if all manufactureres have to make products to the lowest common denominator (Apple shines in this philosophy).
matthewcc
10-14-2009, 02:03 PM
And doesn't have a decent vendor supported OS.
.
Windows 7 is not a vendor supported os?
Did i misunderstand? :confused:
Oh Steve Jobs said the iPhone is the competitor to netbooks (or something to that effect) - since
Of course once he saw netbooks selling like crazy- then he said he has some interesting ideas in the netbook category (which then turned into the iTablet rumours eventually).
Anyways, this is not about an iPhone tablet vs a Booklet argument - and even I agree the Booklet is overpriced (but we will reevaluate that when the iTablet comes out again), but it is not underpowered - which you do agree.
Actually apart from the $60 monthly plan for 2 years bondage, I would say the booklet is a attractive up-market netbook for the discerning crowd. Its not as if all manufactureres have to make products to the lowest common denominator (Apple shines in this philosophy).
Good points.
As for the price, it's just that most Atom based netbooks are sub $500 and the only ones that comes to mind in booklet 3g's price range has a rather impressive feature, which is the Vaio P with its 1600x768 screen and even smaller than most netbooks (at the cost of having the trackpoint vs touchpad).
I don't know about the final street price.. but for a product that commands significantly higher price (msrp), the Booklet 3G seems (to me) that it's released near the end of the current generation of Atom and doesn't have that 'freshness' if it were released last year when the first Atoms were coming out.
nilchak
10-14-2009, 02:22 PM
Windows 7 is not a vendor supported os?
Did i misunderstand? :confused:
He said decent .
Seriously from a personal perspective, Windows 7 is pretty good - better than Vista obviously.
johnkzin
10-14-2009, 03:44 PM
better than Vista obviously.
That's a pretty low bar to set for a comparison, though.
And, yes, Windows 7 doesn't meet my criteria for "decent".
I'm not going to use a Windows product, and I want the product I use/depend-on to be fully vendor supported. So, I wont be buying a netbook that only comes with Windows, so that I can then install Ubuntu on it. That's a "no sale" for me. It either comes with Ubuntu/Maemo/OSX/Android/(maybe another linux dist.), or I don't buy it.
rcadden
10-14-2009, 03:50 PM
Interesting requirement, @johnkzin.
I've got the Asus 1000HE EeePC (LOVE it, btw) and I've tried UNR, EasyPeasy, Jolicloud, and one more I don't remember, and I've found that Win7 is superior to all three of those in several areas.
For one, the WiFi on the 1000HE doesn't work as well in Ubuntu (which all three of those are flavors of) as it does in Win7. Also, the overall system speed in UNR is not up to par with Win7, specifically when you start multitasking.
I also noticed that the battery drain under Linux was much greater than under Win7.
These are *my* experiences with a specific machine (1000HE), so yours may vary.
Texrat
10-14-2009, 03:55 PM
I tried the Windows 7 preview.
Not impressed. It may be more stable than Vista, but to me the UI is just as awkward. XP is elegant compared to it. IMO. YMMV.
johnkzin
10-14-2009, 05:28 PM
Interesting requirement, @johnkzin.
I've got the Asus 1000HE EeePC
Dell Mini-9 (well, the Vostro version of it) with Dellbuntu 8.04.(something). I switched it away from using the Dell version of UNR to using the vanilla Ubuntu desktop.
No issues. No problems. No complaints. Love it (as a clamshell netbook, but what I want is a tablet or convertible-tablet).
rcadden
10-14-2009, 06:37 PM
Dell Mini-9 (well, the Vostro version of it) with Dellbuntu 8.04.(something). I switched it away from using the Dell version of UNR to using the vanilla Ubuntu desktop.
No issues. No problems. No complaints. Love it (as a clamshell netbook, but what I want is a tablet or convertible-tablet).
I had the Mini 9 (tried Win7, OS X, and various flavors of Linux) but just couldn't deal with the keyboard.
nilchak
10-14-2009, 07:58 PM
[QUOTE=johnkzin;346590]That's a pretty low bar to set for a comparison, though./QUOTE]
Actually it also runs better than Ubuntu for me - in terms of speed. I reinstalled Win 7 over Ubuntu on my laptop and Win 7 over Vista on my Media computer. So far I am not dissapointed in Win 7.
YoDude
10-14-2009, 08:24 PM
[QUOTE=johnkzin;346590]That's a pretty low bar to set for a comparison, though./QUOTE]
Actually it also runs better than Ubuntu for me - in terms of speed. I reinstalled Win 7 over Ubuntu on my laptop and Win 7 over Vista on my Media computer. So far I am not dissapointed in Win 7.
That's good to hear...
I'm pro'ly going to pick up the 3G Booklet... I spend 90% of my time in the field, away from a desktop. I need something I can use that is robust, connects to company intra-nets out of the box, and I don't have to race the battery clock every time I use it or have to carry a power cord plus a DC inverter around with me as well.
Besides, xmob's work with Win 7 sideshow (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32436) might just turn the car mounted N810 that I rely on, into a useful companion for the dang thing. :)
johnkzin
10-14-2009, 11:01 PM
That's a pretty low bar to set for a comparison, though.
Actually it also runs better than Ubuntu for me - in terms of speed.
Speed isn't a big factor for me. I wouldn't be talking about a netbook if it was. My dell mini 9 is already plenty fast for me.
An OS that I can depend on, that has proper internal design, that scales well, utilizes standards instead of perverting them, that works the way I think it ought to work without getting in my way, and that isn't owned by a rapacious vendor. Those are much bigger factors.
I get some of that (but not all of it) with Ubuntu. I get some (different pieces) of that with OS X. I get _none_ of that with Windows.
(and, it's not a linux high ... OS X isn't even linux based, it's unix based -- that would be the operative concern, but I wouldn't call "having standards" being on a platform "high")
DaveP1
10-15-2009, 10:35 AM
Speed isn't a big factor for me. I wouldn't be talking about a netbook if it was. My dell mini 9 is already plenty fast for me.
An OS that I can depend on, that has proper internal design, that scales well, utilizes standards instead of perverting them, that works the way I think it ought to work without getting in my way, and that isn't owned by a rapacious vendor. Those are much bigger factors.
To each his own. For myself, my UMPC runs a 1.6GHz Via and going from Vista to Win7 was a revelation. If you turn off the eye candy, it operates fast enough that you don't notice it which is my make or break speed test. I haven't run Ubuntu but I have tried Puppy Linux and it was also fast enough that I didn't notice it.
For me, the bigger factor is software. There are things I need to do that I can do with Windows software but I cannot do with Linux software. I admit the gap is shrinking but it still exists. Perhaps the number of netbooks running Linux will push more commercial developers into the Linux arena.
rcadden
10-15-2009, 10:39 AM
For me, the bigger factor is software. There are things I need to do that I can do with Windows software but I cannot do with Linux software. I admit the gap is shrinking but it still exists. Perhaps the number of netbooks running Linux will push more commercial developers into the Linux arena.
That's it for me, too. Photoshop (I hate GiMP), video editing, etc.
MountainX
10-15-2009, 10:46 AM
That's it for me, too. Photoshop (I hate GiMP), video editing, etc.
Opposite for me. I like Gimp and I hate Photoshop.
I really dislike the way software has to be acquired and maintained in Windows. And there are so many barrierrs to doing things. I didn't realize it until I removed myself from that system for long enough to get used to a different way.
I love the repository approach of the major Linux distros because it is like having an app store (get almost anything and everything in a consistent way from one friendly place) where everything I need is free.
johnkzin
10-15-2009, 11:39 AM
For me, the bigger factor is software. There are things I need to do that I can do with Windows software but I cannot do with Linux software. I admit the gap is shrinking but it still exists. Perhaps the number of netbooks running Linux will push more commercial developers into the Linux arena.
I agree that the biggest factor is software. For what I need my immediate hands-on-system (whether it's a desktop, laptop, netbook, or even pocketable) to do, the software selection just isn't a big deal. Web and/or email client, ssh, IM client, PDF viewer, (open|ms) Office, VNC viewer, ... that pretty much covers 95% of it. If that was the only consideration, I could use ANY platform and not care. The meat of what I do involves ssh and VNC to connect to servers, and I can use any Linux, *BSD, OS X, or even Windows as a thin client for doing all of that. In that environment, the immediate hands-on-system is just a gateway to other things.
And for that other 5% of things I do ... none of it requires Windows. In fact, it's mostly terminal level stuff, and the Windows terminal environment (even with cygwin installed) pretty much sucks a*s. Plus, there's the constant threat of viruses/malware/trojans/etc. (and even though there are threats against linux/bsd/osx unix platforms, the number of threats, and impacts of most threats, are pretty minimal and easy to contain), poor system software design, etc.
And ... if 95% of what I do is platform agnostic, why use an expensive one for those things? Certainly, OS X is weakest here, but it makes up for it by being the most polished and usable platform. Windows both raises the cost of the platform, and has poor ergonomics. Linux, even Ubuntu, may not have the greatest ergonomics, but it's _free_.
(and, that's part of why I would so very much like to see Maemo on a netbook -- best ergonomics/usability of any linux platform I've used; Ubuntu being a modest 2nd, and every other linux environments I've used being very VERY far behind those two)
Have you guys seen this hands-on preview?
http://tnkgrl.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/nokia-booklet-3g-hands-on/
My apologies if it's been posted before.
YoDude
10-15-2009, 07:25 PM
Have you guys seen this hands-on preview?
http://tnkgrl.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/nokia-booklet-3g-hands-on/
My apologies if it's been posted before.
Thanks :)
1 GB RAM (soldered on motherboard)
That^ might make me want to wait and see. :eek:
I'm pro'ly going to pick up the 3G Booklet... I spend 90% of my time in the field, away from a desktop. I need something I can use that is robust, connects to company intra-nets out of the box, and I don't have to race the battery clock every time I use it or have to carry a power cord plus a DC inverter around with me as well.
WSJ reports 10 hours on batteries. I believe that is the best battery time for a netbook with 1280 x 720 display.
meizirkki
11-02-2009, 10:55 AM
WSJ reports 10 hours on batteries. I believe that is the best battery time for a netbook with 1280 x 720 display.
I don't think screen resolution has much to do with the batterylife, but anyway 10 hours is really good!
I don't think screen resolution has much to do with the batterylife, but anyway 10 hours is really good!I didn't mean to imply that it did, just interested in a netbook that has both high resolution display AND good battery life.
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