N900 Specifications

[texaslabrat]

I heard some people on a tech podcast refer to the iPhone's accelerometer as a gyroscope. Plenty other phones have these too, so.......
I'm running out of research time. Can anyone authoritatively explain what exactly is a smartphone accelerometer and how does it work?

They are pizeoresistive elements that change their resistance values according to how much mechanical stress they are under. Thus, by measuring how much resistance the element has, you can calculate the force it is being exposed to...and by extension the acceleration (F=ma). There are 3 axis in which these elements are aligned, so you can, with some fancy math, calculate the 3-d force vector the device as a whole is experiencing at a given moment. With the proper axis alignment and equations, you can "simulate" a gyroscope's ability to measure angle changes in most cases.

[vinc17]

A DigiTimes article from 2008 (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20081211PD210.html) said that there would be gyroscopes in smartphones in 2009.

[texaslabrat]

A DigiTimes article from 2008 (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20081211PD210.html) said that there would be gyroscopes in smartphones in 2009.

I guess if you were trying to build an inertial guidance system, they would be useful (if you had something against gps, or couldn't use it for some reason). However, the simple task of detecting the orientation of the handset is easily accomplished with the accelerometer (gravity points down...look for the force vector corresponding to 9.8m/s^2 acceleration and compare to baseline axis orientation to get degrees from vertical)..plus the accelerometer does other things as well (in addition to being immune from the need to be reset/calibrated). For just about every use case I can think of, gps + accelerometer + digital compass trumps the need for a gyroscope set for a non-mission-critical, non-military customer. Since those items have other functions that are useful in their own right...I just can't see the justification for adding the cost of a gyroscope set (3 axes would be an additional $150 plus the added challenge of show-horning them in to an already crowded case).

But that's just me...

[iKneaDough]

They are pizeoresistive elements that change their resistance values according to how much mechanical stress they are under. Thus, by measuring how much resistance the element has, you can calculate the force it is being exposed to...and by extension the acceleration (F=ma). There are 3 axis in which these elements are aligned, so you can, with some fancy math, calculate the 3-d force vector the device as a whole is experiencing at a given moment. With the proper axis alignment and equations, you can "simulate" a gyroscope's ability to measure angle changes in most cases.

By mechanical stress, do you mean that there is moving parts in there (like a ball that rolls up and down when you tilt it), or what else does it do to induce mechanical stress?

Also wondering if information from accelerometer can be used to make a pedometer app.

Do the current cheap $20 pedometers use accelerometers inside or some other technology?

[BadMojoUT]

By mechanical stress, do you mean that there is moving parts in there (like a ball that rolls up and down when you tilt it), or what else does it do to induce mechanical stress?

Also wondering if information from accelerometer can be used to make a pedometer app.

Do the current cheap $20 pedometers use accelerometers inside or some other technology?

There are a couple of designs for accelerometers. The one that texaslabrat describes doesn't really have (easily visible) moving structures or elements per se. Basically, the way that design works is that you get a crystal structure that has piezoresistive properties. That is, the crystal changes resistance depending on the amount of mechanical force exerted upon it (think about the sensations your body feels when the car accelerates and imagine that your body could change resistance accordingly :) ). There are also crystals that have piezoelectric properties which, as you can probably guess, generate a voltage when a mechanical force is induced upon it. There's even a method for building accelerometers by determining changes in capacitance in objects.

And to answer your second question, yes, you can build a a pedometer app that uses the accelerometer. Nokia made one for Symbian S60 3rd devices (I used it on my Nokia N95 and it works pretty nicely). I'm not sure but I'd expect the stand-alone pedometers to use both analog as well as accelerometers to detect steps.

[iKneaDough]

@BadMojoUT : Thanks for your reply! very informative.

That is, the crystal changes resistance depending on the amount of mechanical force exerted upon it (think about the sensations your body feels when the car accelerates and imagine your body changed resistance accordingly :) ).

Do you mean something like g-force ?

[texaslabrat]

@BadMojoUT : Thanks for your reply! very informative.



Do you mean something like g-force ?

yep...exactly

[vinc17]

I just can't see the justification for adding the cost of a gyroscope set (3 axes would be an additional $150 plus the added challenge of show-horning them in to an already crowded case).
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEMS_gyroscope#MEMS_gyroscope), "Relatively inexpensive (less than US$10 per part as of 2009) vibrating structure gyroscopes using MEMS technology are available." That's far from $150.

[texaslabrat]

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEMS_gyroscope#MEMS_gyroscope), "Relatively inexpensive (less than US$10 per part as of 2009) vibrating structure gyroscopes using MEMS technology are available." That's far from $150.

Well, I pulled the $150 from the $50 per single-axis MEMS gyroscope I saw priced via a google search. Feel free to show me a source of actual, purchasable gyroscopes of the proper size to fit inside the already crowded case of a phone like the N900 if you like. In any case, as I've outlined...gyroscopes are largely superfluous anyway as the accelerometer can replace them in virtually all use cases you'd want with a phone (with gps and/or digital compass filling in the gaps) plus, as I've also said before, gyroscopes require occasional resetting/calibration and thus are not a "fire and forget" proposition. What is it with you and gyroscopes, anyway? You own stock in a gyroscope manufacturer?

[vinc17]

Well, I pulled the $150 from the $50 per single-axis MEMS gyroscope I saw priced via a google search. Feel free to show me a source of actual, purchasable gyroscopes of the proper size to fit inside the already crowded case of a phone like the N900 if you like.
With a Google Search: US$4 (http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1697907-ic-mems-gyro-sensor-dgtl-16lga-ly530alh.html) for a single-axis gyro sensor. The size is 5x5x1.5mm. But miniature gyroscopes are very specific, and I suppose that large companies like Nokia would have better sources than a quick search on Google.

What is it with you and gyroscopes, anyway?
This isn't just me. Look at all the articles on the web. From the Digitimes article: To make their mobile devices appeal to more consumers, smartphones launched by Nokia, Samsung Electronics, Motorola, LG Electronics, Sony Ericsson and Apple, are all expected to come with MEMS gyroscopes in 2009, the sources said. And why does the PS3 controller have a gyroscope instead of accelerometer?

You own stock in a gyroscope manufacturer?
LOL!

[texaslabrat]

With a Google Search: US$4 (http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1697907-ic-mems-gyro-sensor-dgtl-16lga-ly530alh.html) for a single-axis gyro sensor. The size is 5x5x1.5mm. But miniature gyroscopes are very specific, and I suppose that large companies like Nokia would have better sources than a quick search on Google.


Cool..good to know...and as I suspected they are pretty big. You would need 3 of them for 3-axis sensing and every cubic millimeter you devote to a new gadget is a cubic millimeter less battery volume.


This isn't just me. Look at all the articles on the web. From the Digitimes article: To make their mobile devices appeal to more consumers, smartphones launched by Nokia, Samsung Electronics, Motorola, LG Electronics, Sony Ericsson and Apple, are all expected to come with MEMS gyroscopes in 2009, the sources said. And why does the PS3 controller have a gyroscope instead of accelerometer?

Well, just because somebody wrote an article doesn't mean it's Providence or even a good idea...the fact that said gyroscopes DIDN'T come with smartphones as predicted should clue you in to that. As for the PS3...it has a gyroscope because they decided they wanted the ability to very precisely measure all 6 axes (it also has accelerometers) at additional cost. A better comparison is the original wii controller. which had accelerometers only (they were trying to keep costs down) and did an exceptionally good job for all but the most precise motion use cases due to the excellent software they wrote for the motion control. The $30 add-on brought gyroscopes to the table for more angular precision...but it *added* to the capabilities that were already there (and it does, in fact, occassionally get out of whack and requires resetting/recalibration) . The reverse would not be true (you couldn't have made a wii controller with just gyroscopes and added the accelerometers later).

So, now we get back to the phone world. Exactly what is it that you hope that your phone could do with a gyroscope that can not be accomplished with the already included accelerometer setup? Maybe I'm just not creative enough to dream up what it is that I'm missing out by only having lateral force sensing in my phone.


LOL!

:D

[attila77]

IIRC A gyro is quicker and more precise than a digital compass. Think about it as... a compass is good for orientation, a gyro is good for recording motion (especially the yaw component). A compass will never be as precise as a gyro to tell you how quickly you are turning (ever see those iPhone augmented reality apps ? You moooove theee deviiice sloooowly or it get's jumpy real quick). At the same time the gyro will not be able to tell you which way is North without constant (re)calibration, so they are not drop-in replacements. AFAIK no game controller has gyro(s) *instead* of accelerometer(s), they have gyros *in addition* to accelerometer(s).

[vinc17]

Cool..good to know...and as I suspected they are pretty big. You would need 3 of them for 3-axis sensing and every cubic millimeter you devote to a new gadget is a cubic millimeter less battery volume.
The dual-axis gyro IDG-2000 will be released in October and is 4x4x0.9mm, so about the same size of the thinnest 3-axis accelerometer (http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2009/06/10/46260/st-produces-worlds-thinnest-accelerometer.htm) (the volume ratio is 1.28). I don't know the OEM price. The IDG-1215 was $20 per unit (but per thousands, the price should be much lower). So, I don't think it would really be expensive.

So, now we get back to the phone world. Exactly what is it that you hope that your phone could do with a gyroscope that can not be accomplished with the already included accelerometer setup?
Smartphones are not just phones. They have cameras. And it has been said that gyros help image stabilization.

[texaslabrat]

The dual-axis gyro IDG-2000 will be released in October and is 4x4x0.9mm, so about the same size of the thinnest 3-axis accelerometer (http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2009/06/10/46260/st-produces-worlds-thinnest-accelerometer.htm) (the volume ratio is 1.28). I don't know the OEM price. The IDG-1215 was $20 per unit (but per thousands, the price should be much lower). So, I don't think it would really be expensive.


Not "really" expensive in terms of absolute price perhaps..but it's added space and power consumption that doesn't get you much in the way of new capabilities that people care about. Paying "something for nothing" is not a winning strategy...it's a solution looking for a problem on this kind of platform.


Smartphones are not just phones. They have cameras. And it has been said that gyros help image stabilization.

Accelerometers are typically used for embedded image stabilization. What else you got? :p

[shadowjk]

I've been wishing for gyro too, even before reading about the AR craze. In my case I wanted them for augmenting gps data to give higher sampling rate. Inertial navigation, but reset every second by gps updates. Gyro calibration can be done automatically when accelerometers indicate no movement, with data from accelerometers and digital compass.

How useful is a digital compass anyway? i've had a few watches with digital compasses, and they required calibration to work at all, and even then they were nearly useless

[vinc17]

Paying "something for nothing" is not a winning strategy...it's a solution looking for a problem on this kind of platform.

Accelerometers are typically used for embedded image stabilization. What else you got? :p
This is not what other people say, see e.g. http://www.photographyblog.com/news/dual-axis_gyroscope_for_image_stabilisation_in_digicams _camera_phones/.

[texaslabrat]

This is not what other people say, see e.g. http://www.photographyblog.com/news/dual-axis_gyroscope_for_image_stabilisation_in_digicams _camera_phones/.

I said "typically"...yes there are high-end devices that include gyros as well (or will...did you notice the date on that article). Until you get the sensor and optics to match, there's little reason to go that route solely for the purpose of photography since accelerometers can do a pretty fine job by themselves. On a phone like the N86 with its 8MP camera (obviously being marketed towards the photography crowd) or actual single-purpose digital cameras...maybe it would be worth it. On the N900...probably not so much given it is expensive and crowded enough as-is. In any case, one would be FAR better off overall with a more sensitive accelerometer (far more general-purpose) than just throwing in a gyroscope when space and power are limited. /shrug maybe some engineers think the tradeoff is worth it if the price is right.

The only thing a gyro can truly do is add a marginal improvement in performance over an accelerometer in some cases. It doesn't add anything "new" worth talking about in a phone platform. If you are willing to pay more, have less battery life and/or have an even chunkier phone for that marginal improvement in pointing accuracy or image stabilization...then go for it. However, I'd wager 99% of the consumer market out there (myself included) is quite happy with the performance modern solid-state accelerometers can give when coupled with decent software (wii controller being a fine example..yes it can be and was improved later, but it was incredible as-is too). If they get down to next-to-free in terms of actual dollar cost, space requirements, and power draw..then sure...throw them in. At that point why not? As it is, there's just not enough margin of improvement to make it worth it for the vast majority of the consumer phone market.

So again..what else you got?

[texaslabrat]

Gyro calibration can be done automatically when accelerometers indicate no movement, with data from accelerometers and digital compass.



Yep, and you've ironically missed the fact that a gryo can be *replaced* by that combination of accelerometers, gps, and digital compass rather than just being there to calibrate it. Just because the iphone's (or your watches) digital compass sucks doesn't mean they all have to. I'd take a "good" digital compass over a gyro (assuming I already have a decent accelerometer and gps anyway) anyday. Far more useful in day-to-day activities than the incremental improvement in angle-change detection that a gyro brings to the table.

And as someone who has written gps-data processing software, I think your ideas on the inertial guidance system needs some more work ;) You're not going to gain anything from trying to update the INS every second with gps....gps just isn't that accurate (at least civilian systems) while moving. You'd be better off just relying on the INS with that rate of update. The rate at which it becomes beneficial to update with gps is related to the INS drift rate..which would need to be calculated against a known course with well-defined waypoints. So, while you're on the right track..there's more to it that you've given credit for.

[pycage]

How useful is a digital compass anyway? i've had a few watches with digital compasses, and they required calibration to work at all, and even then they were nearly useless

A compass is required for augmented reality. To determine where your device is looking at requires 3 dimensions:

- GPS: your location on the world
- Accelerometer: the angle you're holding the device
- Compass: the direction you're looking at

To see this in action, you could try Google Skymap on Android phones. You hold your phone against the starry sky and see the names of the constellations you're pointing at on screen.

[timsamoff]

A compass is required for augmented reality. To determine where your device is looking at requires 3 dimensions:

- GPS: your location on the world
- Accelerometer: the angle you're holding the device
- Compass: the direction you're looking at

To see this in action, you could try Google Skymap on Android phones. You hold your phone against the starry sky and see the names of the constellations you're pointing at on screen.
All true. Of course, with a camera, one might be able to calibrate a device by telling it which directions were north/south/east/west...maybe?

Tim

[DaKing]

i have a question about the windows live messenger application will it be released just like the one in the windows mobiles ? or how will the chat messenger of hotmail ( msn ) be ?? :confused::confused:

[sljonson]

@BadMojoUT : Thanks for your reply! very informative.



Do you mean something like g-force ?

No, not necessarily g-force. Any acceleration will be measure. These devices will work anywhere even deep space with no gravity. They work because certain crystals can generate small electrical current if the crystalline structure inside are stressed (i.e. deformed). That is if you grab a crystal and squeeze it in you fingers it will generate an electrical current.

Now for the way it works in an accelerometer, think back you basic physics. More specify Newton's 1st law. (paraphrased) An object at rest tends to stays at rest...unless acted upon an outside force. The crystal is mounted in an accelerometer normally at rest. Now when the device it's mounted in moves, a certain amount of force is exerted on the crystal. The crystal wants to stay still, but it's mounting points are pressing against the crystal which will deform the structure of the crystal. Just like squeezing the crystal in your fingers.

And the key is that the crystals inside the accelerometer is that they only measure movement along a certain direction (aka vector in science speak). So you mount 2 (or 3) crystals so you can measure the up/down and left/right movements.

[texaslabrat]

No, not necessarily g-force. Any acceleration will be measure. These devices will work anywhere even deep space with no gravity. They work because certain crystals can generate small electrical current if the crystalline structure inside are stressed (i.e. deformed). That is if you grab a crystal and squeeze it in you fingers it will generate an electrical current.

Now for the way it works in an accelerometer, think back you basic physics. More specify Newton's 1st law. (paraphrased) An object at rest tends to stays at rest...unless acted upon an outside force. The crystal is mounted in an accelerometer normally at rest. Now when the device it's mounted in moves, a certain amount of force is exerted on the crystal. The crystal wants to stay still, but it's mounting points are pressing against the crystal which will deform the structure of the crystal. Just like squeezing the crystal in your fingers.

And the key is that the crystals inside the accelerometer is that they only measure movement along a certain direction (aka vector in science speak). So you mount 2 (or 3) crystals so you can measure the up/down and left/right movements.

The term "g-force" is a colloquialism that is generally used to describe acceleration forces felt from an observer's frame of reference...not just the "g" (9.81 m/s^2 vector pointed at earth's center) imposed by the earth's gravity.

Also, the accelerometers used in applications like this utilize changes in the resistive or capacitive properties, not the measurement of a current (voltage). The resistance and capcitance changes are steady-state depending on the strain (hence stress, hence force, hence acceleration) similar to old-school strain gauges.

Voltage creation by piezoelectric devices is dependent on *rate of change* and is far less useful in this use case since you not only have to measure instantaneous voltage but have to keep a history to make that measurement useful. Contrast with a pizeoresistive or capacitive element where the instantaneous measurement of the resistance/capacitance corresponds directly to the acceleration at that very moment without need to consider the history of change to make that calculation.

Perhaps a pedantic correction..but it is worth noting IMHO.

[Kozzi]

All true. Of course, with a camera, one might be able to calibrate a device by telling it which directions were north/south/east/west...maybe?

Tim

Perhaps, with something like this (http://sheludkov.info/slider2.html#navimachine) and workload of image prosessing? :D


Navi Machine
Simple compass application for 5800. There’s no built-in compass in 5800 so you have to point your phone towards the sun and the red N shows you where north is.

[matthewcc]

Does the N900 support OTA software updates?

[pelago]

Does the N900 support OTA software updates?
Yes it does.

[shadowjk]

well I guess if Carmack gave up on using ins in his space rocket, i should give up making a faster speedometer :)

[Jack6428]

i want to ask about the memory (storage space)...uptil now i have no clue how it is divided...the device has 32GB of space...and 768MB from it is used for swap RAM...right? so, the rest (about 30GB) is free and i can put there anything i want, right? Coz i read somewhere it has actually just 65Mb of space...so, how is it really?

[GeneralAntilles]

i want to ask about the memory (storage space)...uptil now i have no clue how it is divided...the device has 32GB of space...and 768MB from it is used for swap RAM...right? so, the rest (about 30GB) is free and i can put there anything i want, right? Coz i read somewhere it has actually just 65Mb of space...so, how is it really?

See my earlier post (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=323364#post323364) on the subject.

The current layout as I understand it (all pre-release specifications are subject to change, of course):

32GB eMMC

768MB of swap
"Over" 1GB of ext3 mounted on /opt
Remaining space mounted on /home/user/$MYDOCS as FAT32

256MB NAND

Bootloader
Kernel
rootfs

MicroSD

FAT32 partition


The 1GB mounted on /opt provides a place for additional application storage, so ignore that 65MB number as it doesn't have anything to do with the final product.

[Jack6428]

See my earlier post (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=323364#post323364) on the subject.



The 1GB mounted on /opt provides a place for additional application storage, so ignore that 65MB number as it doesn't have anything to do with the final product.

so in other words...i will have just 1gb of space only for applications and the rest will be for movies, music, pictures, etc. ? not that 1gb would be small, but let's say i install alot of games...the space will be filled easily...i understand correctly, right? can this be somehow changed? and if i format my device, can i choose which part it deletes or will it delete everything?

[Bratag]

If thats the case the first thing I am goign to do is create a partition on the 30GB spare for swap. I dont like the idea of my swap space being chewed up as I install new programs.

[GeneralAntilles]

so in other words...i will have just 1gb of space only for applications and the rest will be for movies, music, pictures, etc. ? not that 1gb would be small, but let's say i install alot of games...the space will be filled easily...i understand correctly, right? can this be somehow changed? and if i format my device, can i choose which part it deletes or will it delete everything?

Sure, you could format the whole of the 32GB eMMC ext3 and use it as application storage if you wished, but that 1GB will go farther than you think.

[texaslabrat]

If thats the case the first thing I am goign to do is create a partition on the 30GB spare for swap. I dont like the idea of my swap space being chewed up as I install new programs.

Why would swap space be "chewed up" by installing programs? They are separate partitions.

[GeneralAntilles]

If thats the case the first thing I am goign to do is create a partition on the 30GB spare for swap. I dont like the idea of my swap space being chewed up as I install new programs.

Swap is on a separate partition, so neither data nor application space will "chew up" swap space. Besides, there's no sane reason to have more than 768MB of swap anyway.

[attila77]

Also, if the partition layout is known it should be quite doable (not risk free, but still, pretty painless compared to today's cloning) to provide a package that can resize the partitions and filesystems via parted/resize2fs.

[attila77]

Swap is on a separate partition, so neither data nor application space will "chew up" swap space. Besides, there's no sane reason to have more than 768MB of swap anyway.

And in case you for some insane reason DO need more, you can always just add it on through a loop device (hey, if you're filling 768 MB swap, you're far beyond the point of being concerned with performance anyway :) )

[ragnar]

I think we would have a very positive problem, once for normal users they would have so many useful applications that 1gb of space would start to become an issue.

[texaslabrat]

Swap is on a separate partition, so neither data nor application space will "chew up" swap space. Besides, there's no sane reason to have more than 768MB of swap anyway.

Yeah, 768MB of swap "should be enough for anybody" LOL! j/k

[UCOMM]

I think we would have a very positive problem, once for normal users they would have so many useful applications that 1gb of space would start to become an issue.



so do as GA says and just format as much as you want for the apps

[GeneralAntilles]

Yeah, 768MB of swap "should be enough for anybody" LOL! j/k

Based on the hardware specifications of the N900, not for all time, of course.

[texaslabrat]

Based on the hardware specifications of the N900, not for all time, of course.

bah, you ruined my quote for you in 5 years with a rational caveat... :p

[texaslabrat]

On a more serious note..I noticed from the spec sheet that the talk time is 9 hours GSM, 5 hours WCDMA. Is there a way to make it prefer GSM for voice without disabling WCDMA for data applications? Maybe it's a silly question, but when people start wondering about battery life and such I would think those kinds of optimizations would be kind of handy.

[ysss]

@texaslabrat: I'd imagine the proper logic would be to stay on GSM until data transfer is required then. But with all the widgets and automated tasks going on all the time, you'd need a more intelligent profile\detection\preference mechanism to utilize the 3G smartly.

Attila77's shepherd app could be just the thing for this when it comes to fruition.

<3 FOSS.

[R-R]

How fast is swapping on a flash memory going to kill it?
Do we know what type of flash is being used?
Evening algorithm?

[GeneralAntilles]

How fast is swapping on a flash memory going to kill it?


Not very.


Do we know what type of flash is being used?
Evening algorithm?

eMMC, which handles its own wear-leveling.

[Jack6428]

so do as GA says and just format as much as you want for the apps

just to put things straight...
do i have the same storage space for everything or not (putting everything in one place)? im sorry, but this is the most confusing thing about the phone for me and i still don't understand eventhough i understand everything else...on Symbian it was easy...one phone memory, one card memory, one ram...here it's confusing..

[GeneralAntilles]

just to put things straight...
do i have the same storage space for everything or not (putting everything in one place)? im sorry, but this is the most confusing thing about the phone for me and i still don't understand eventhough i understand everything else...on Symbian it was easy...one phone memory, one card memory, one ram...here it's confusing..

It's all completely transparent to the user, so there's absolutely no need to worry about it. :)

[Jack6428]

It's all completely transparent to the user, so there's absolutely no need to worry about it. :)

Basically like creating partitions on the PC?
Without any risk?

[GeneralAntilles]

Basically like creating partitions on the PC?
Without any risk?

No, the partition arrangement between swap, application data and user data is completely transparent to the user. You really have no reason to think about where you're installing applications or worry about how much space you have.

[vinc17]

Not completely transparent if the user wants to store data with symbolic links or when the execution bit is important (this will be possible under /opt, but not under /home/user). Or when the 1-GB partition becomes full. I think I'll repartition the device, like I did on my N810.

[GeneralAntilles]

Not completely transparent if the user wants to store data with symbolic links or when the execution bit is important (this will be possible under /opt, but not under /home/user). Or when the 1-GB partition becomes full. I think I'll repartition the device, like I did on my N810.

User is the operative term here, not a developer or a power user. /home/user is on the ext3, too, so execute bits wont be an issue there.

[vinc17]

User is the operative term here, not a developer or a power user.
It should be average user, then.

/home/user is on the ext3, too, so execute bits wont be an issue there.
OK, so the remaining space is mounted on /home/user/$MYDOCS (I wonder what $MYDOC is), not /home/user. Then this means that the other files in /home/user are on the rootfs partition, which is limited to 256MB. This isn't much, in particular if packages don't use /opt for everything. BTW, is it really ext3, or jffs2 (hence compressed) like on the N810?

[GeneralAntilles]

It should be average user, then.


I assumed that would be a reasonable conclusion to draw from the context of the conversation.


OK, so the remaining space is mounted on /home/user/$MYDOCS (I wonder what $MYDOC is), not /home/user. Then this means that the other files in /home/user are on the rootfs partition, which is limited to 256MB. This isn't much, in particular if packages don't use /opt for everything. BTW, is it really ext3, or jffs2 (hence compressed) like on the N810?

The ext3 partition is the 1GB partition on the 32GB eMMC. The rootfs is UBIFS.

[mikkov]

OK, so the remaining space is mounted on /home/user/$MYDOCS (I wonder what $MYDOC is), not /home/user. Then this means that the other files in /home/user are on the rootfs partition, which is limited to 256MB. This isn't much, in particular if packages don't use /opt for everything. BTW, is it really ext3, or jffs2 (hence compressed) like on the N810?

To be precise the big fat32 partition is mounted on /home/user/MyDocs which is same as $MYDOCSDIR

/home/user is on 1GB ext3 partition as well as /opt which is in reality a symlink to /home/opt.

edit:
it's $MYDOCSDIR not $MYDOCS

[vinc17]

To be precise the big fat32 partition is mounted on /home/user/MyDocs which is same as $MYDOCS.
OK, this now makes more sense!

/home/user is on 1GB ext3 partition as well as /opt which is in reality a symlink to /home/opt.
Interesting. So, I'll repartition the 32GB memory to have the 768MB swap and for the remaining, a single ext3 partition mounted on /home.

[korbé]

The tool mkfs, Is it available to change the partition in FAT32 to Ext2?

[GeneralAntilles]

The tool mkfs, Is it available to change the partition in FAT32 to Ext2?

What else would you change it with?

[korbé]

The format of Fat32 partition to Ext2.

[slate8]

The format of Fat32 partition to Ext2.

I guess the advantage of this would be getting over the 2Gb file limit at the cost of losing windows compatibility? Or are there other reasons to favour ext? Just curious :)

[GeneralAntilles]

I guess the advantage of this would be getting over the 2Gb file limit at the cost of losing windows compatibility? Or are there other reasons to favour ext? Just curious :)

Well, FAT32 generally being a godawful filesystem. The only reason you need it is for Windows compatibility, so if you don't need that you might as well ditch it.

By the way, ext3 is going to be a better choice than ext2.

[korbé]

@slate8: Compatibility with Windows don't interest me: I don't like use DOS systems. I use Windows only at school. In an emergency, I will keep an 8GB Fat32 miniSD in my N900. Do not have the limitation of 2GB file is not the only advantage. The very low fragmentation of Ext2 format is another.


@GeneralAntilles: Yes but Ext3 is a journaling FS. It is not good for flash memories.

[zehjotkah]

@slate8: Compatibility with Windows don't interest me: I don't like use DOS systems. I use Windows only at school. In an emergency, I will keep an 8GB Fat32 miniSD in my N900. Do not have the limitation of 2GB file is not the only advantage. The very low fragmentation of Ext2 format is another.


@GeneralAntilles: Yes but Ext3 is a journaling FS. It is not good for flash memories.

Thanks. I was a little bit worried about no Windows compatibility (not for me at my home PC but on any of my friends PC). But I can use the entire internal 32GB as ext2/3 and keep the microSD as FAT. So no need to worry anymore :-) ...

[GeneralAntilles]

@GeneralAntilles: Yes but Ext3 is a journaling FS. It is not good for flash memories.

Actually, ext3 is better for flash than having to repair the filesystem every time you run out of power. The journalling is a much smaller burden than fscking the whole fs on boot. So, no, you're mistaken.

Either way, modern flash memory is durable enough that pretty much no matter what you do you aren't going to wear it out within the usable lifetime of the device.

[javispedro]

Actually, ext3 is better for flash than having to repair the filesystem every time you run out of power. The journalling is a much smaller burden than fscking the whole fs on boot. So, no, you're mistaken.
The problem I see is that the number of times I've run out of power in the tablets is 0, which is what I'd expect considering they have their own UPSs (the batteries) after all. Metadata only journaling is nearly imperceptible in terms of flash durability, but it creates an additional performance hit.

Crashes are another story, and if we're to expect the kernel crashing a lot ext3 is the logical choice (or not , if some horror stories are to be believed...).

[dansus]

Have a look at this puppy, spot the reference to 3G on ATT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuHgBHY3nVg&feature=player_embedded#t=86

Personally i dont think he realises its running on Edge.

Edit: The text pops up later saying its Tmobile 3G.. lol.

[javispedro]

I think we would have a very positive problem, once for normal users they would have so many useful applications that 1gb of space would start to become an issue.
Well, Curse Of Monkey Island is nearly > 1 GiB. But of course, I'll assume we can still play it from FAT32.

[pelago]

Well, Curse Of Monkey Island is nearly > 1 GiB. But of course, I'll assume we can still play it from FAT32.
I think the idea for games like that is that the engine (i.e. ScummVM) would sit within the 1GB, but the data files would sit within the 30-ish GB.

[GeneralAntilles]

The problem I see is that the number of times I've run out of power in the tablets is 0, which is what I'd expect considering they have their own UPSs (the batteries) after all. Metadata only journaling is nearly imperceptible in terms of flash durability, but it creates an additional performance hit.


Yeah, I should've been less specific. Anything that causes the filesystem not to close properly. ;)

[vinc17]

I guess the advantage of this would be getting over the 2Gb file limit at the cost of losing windows compatibility? Or are there other reasons to favour ext? Just curious :)
Symbolic links and the execution bit. And IIRC, the ":" character (used, e.g., in the Maildir format).

[Thesandlord]

The problem I see is that the number of times I've run out of power in the tablets is 0, which is what I'd expect considering they have their own UPSs (the batteries) after all. Metadata only journaling is nearly imperceptible in terms of flash durability, but it creates an additional performance hit.

Crashes are another story, and if we're to expect the kernel crashing a lot ext3 is the logical choice (or not , if some horror stories are to be believed...).

Seriously? Never lost power on the tablets! Wow, either you don't go out much or have some killer battery. I loose power all the time, which is why I use a ext3 partition on my SD instead of ext2. I mean, the tablet DOES die graciously, but sometimes it freezes and you have to pull the battery.

ext4 anyone? I have no idea what benefits it has, but...

[patstew]

As I've said before, the port is USB OTG. All of the hardware is there.

Is this definitely the case? The reason I ask is that looking at http://mos.futurenet.com/techradar/classifications/gadgets/phones/mobile-phones/Nokia/Nokia%20N900%20Hands%20on/Nokia_N900_12-420-90.jpg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Types-usb_new.svg it looks like the N900 has a micro-B socket. USB-OTG devices are required to have a micro-AB socket (a square one without the bevelled corners). If it doesn't take micro-A plugs, then either it doesn't support host mode, or it doesn't comply to standards, or wikipedia is wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus#Micro-AB_Socket_OTG

[texaslabrat]

Is this definitely the case? The reason I ask is that looking at http://mos.futurenet.com/techradar/classifications/gadgets/phones/mobile-phones/Nokia/Nokia%20N900%20Hands%20on/Nokia_N900_12-420-90.jpg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Types-usb_new.svg it looks like the N900 has a micro-B socket. USB-OTG devices are required to have a micro-AB socket (a square one without the bevelled corners). If it doesn't take micro-A plugs, then either it doesn't support host mode, or it doesn't comply to standards, or wikipedia is wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus#Micro-AB_Socket_OTG

http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?contentId=14649&navigationId=12643&templateId=6123


as for standards (or failure to adhere strictly to them)...just get one of these:
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=211045542&listingid=41883616

You can also pick up a battery-driven powered usb hub to complete the ensemble ;)

[lma]

Actually, ext3 is better for flash than having to repair the filesystem every time you run out of power. The journalling is a much smaller burden than fscking the whole fs on boot. So, no, you're mistaken.

If ext2 & ext3 are the only choices I'd pick ext2 for the internal flash device (microSD cards that will be very cheap to replace by the time they are out of warranty are a different matter).

Running out of power should be an exceptional event, while the journalling is active the entire time the filesystem is mounted. While it's on, every time you change a single bit on the fs the system will have to re-write at least two entire eraseblocks on the flash (one for the journal, one for the actual filesystem data/metadata, depending on the mount options used). Wear-levelling or not, that seems too excessive for my liking.

The main issue IMHO is handling an interactive e2fsck when things go pear shaped (but ext3 doesn't eliminate the need for that completely either).

[GeneralAntilles]

Running out of power should be an exceptional event, while the journalling is active the entire time the filesystem is mounted. While it's on, every time you change a single bit on the fs the system will have to re-write at least two entire eraseblocks on the flash (one for the journal, one for the actual filesystem data/metadata, depending on the mount options used). Wear-levelling or not, that seems too excessive for my liking.

This has been discussed endlessly on #maemo, and much smarter people than myself preferred ext3 (including Nokia, it appears). Observation of flash memory survival rates (nearly 100% in what I've observed) seems to bear this out.

I'll stick to ext3, thanks.

[lma]

This has been discussed endlessly on #maemo, and much smarter people than myself preferred ext3 (including Nokia, it appears).

Well, Nokia's criteria (eg reduced support costs) may not necessarily coincide with mine (device longevity, especially past the warranty period) while both are valid individually.

Observation of flash memory survival rates (nearly 100% in what I've observed) seems to bear this out.

Survival over what period and usage pattern? Keep in mind that flash writes impact the entire block device (not partition), so having things like swap, journal, .ash_history (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4174) etc on the same chip have a cumulative wear effect.

BTW, there was some speculation that there's an extra (faster?) memory device in the RX-51 specifically for swap use, but I've lost track - was that ever confirmed either way? If there is, it could also be used to store the ext3 journal.

[GeneralAntilles]

Survival over what period and usage pattern? Keep in mind that flash writes impact the entire block device (not partition), so having things like swap, journal, .ash_history (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4174) etc on the same chip have a cumulative wear effect.


My own internal 4GB SDHC that I've been using since mid-2007 to boot from and for swap and dozens of other people's similar arrangements on both N800s and N810s.


BTW, there was some speculation that there's an extra (faster?) memory device in the RX-51 specifically for swap use, but I've lost track - was that ever confirmed either way? If there is, it could also be used to store the ext3 journal.

There's not.

[attila77]

Survival over what period and usage pattern? Keep in mind that flash writes impact the entire block device (not partition), so having things like swap, journal, .ash_history (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4174) etc on the same chip have a cumulative wear effect.


Actually, it IS better to have all these on one big device, as the wear is then spread across more flash blocks, unless you plan on introducing more chips with different technologies (=higher cost + more space + higher complexity).

Anyway, if this was a real problem, we'd be flooded with N810 users with dead internal cards by now (as the N810 is swapping on a 2GB flash device = 16x shorter life span than the N900 on equal tech and number of writes).

[vinc17]

Anyway, if this was a real problem, we'd be flooded with N810 users with dead internal cards by now (as the N810 is swapping on a 2GB flash device = 16x shorter life span than the N900 on equal tech and number of writes).
Not all users enabled swap space (I didn't), and when it is enabled, I wonder whether it is intensively used in practice.

[Bratag]

This has been discussed endlessly on #maemo, and much smarter people than myself preferred ext3 (including Nokia, it appears). Observation of flash memory survival rates (nearly 100% in what I've observed) seems to bear this out.

I'll stick to ext3, thanks.

ext3 has been shown to be the superior FS many times. This is a pretty good writeup on why. The article specifically mentions is lower power consumption. Always handy in a mobile device.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ext3

[attila77]

Not all users enabled swap space (I didn't), and when it is enabled, I wonder whether it is intensively used in practice.

Folks, please, once and for all, let the system worry about flash wear, it's more than capable of doing it, don't burden yourself with it.

As for swap usage, it will definitively be used, Linux likes to keep memory empty for cache and buffers, so if you have something that isn't too active, it will end up on the swap sooner or later.

[lma]

My own internal 4GB SDHC that I've been using since mid-2007 to boot from and for swap and dozens of other people's similar arrangements on both N800s and N810s.

I've had one card die while in normal use inside my 770 and another two in the N800 (none on the N810 so far), but I have no idea why or what conclusions can be drawn from that, other than it's made me a bit more paranoid I guess ;-)

Actually, it IS better to have all these on one big device, as the wear is then spread across more flash blocks

Maybe bigger device == wear spread across more blocks, but isn't this offset by more blocks == higher probability of some going bad? Either way, I'd prefer to keep things that cause lots of erase/write cycles out of the soldered-on chip.

Anyway, if this was a real problem, we'd be flooded with N810 users with dead internal cards by now

Oh, I'm not worried about it dying while still in warranty (all N810s are still < 2 years old).

ext3 has been shown to be the superior FS many times. This is a pretty good writeup on why. The article specifically mentions is lower power consumption. Always handy in a mobile device.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ext3

Compared to ReiserFS & XFS, which is irrelevant here. Compared to ext2 it should use slightly more power because of the journal (otherwise they're the same fs).

[qgil]

Is this definitely the case? The reason I ask is that looking at http://mos.futurenet.com/techradar/classifications/gadgets/phones/mobile-phones/Nokia/Nokia%20N900%20Hands%20on/Nokia_N900_12-420-90.jpg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Types-usb_new.svg it looks like the N900 has a micro-B socket. USB-OTG devices are required to have a micro-AB socket (a square one without the bevelled corners). If it doesn't take micro-A plugs, then either it doesn't support host mode, or it doesn't comply to standards, or wikipedia is wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus#Micro-AB_Socket_OTG

The N900 doesn't support USB host mode and the limitation comes at hardware level. Igor Stoppa and myself provide more details at http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020830.html

[quingu]

WHAT?

Does that mean it's impossible to use any USB periphery with the n900 - not even with power injection?

All previous NITs had this feature. USB support missing on the n900 would be a huge letdown.

[Bratag]

The N900 doesn't support USB host mode and the limitation comes at hardware level. Igor Stoppa and myself provide more details at http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020830.html

Isnt the issue that it cant provide power for the USB device. What about independently powered drives which dont rely on the USB host to power. I may have misread the issue.

[thecursedfly]

WHAT?

Does that mean it's impossible to use any USB periphery with the n900 - not even with power injection?

All previous NITs had this feature. USB support missing on the n900 would be a huge letdown.
Holy S**t, please don't tell me I can't attach a self powered external HD (or ANY other self powered USB device) to the N900, it was really something I was looking to... :eek:
reading the link posted by qgil I didn't get if the problem is with the power of the device of incompatibility between USB hardware and the USB consortium rules... in this last case, wouldn't there have been the same problems with the previous internet tablets?? :confused:

or is the "support" word being used as "officially supported" by Nokia, not providing the Host mode out of the box?


One totally different thing:
the N900 has a IR port; I have a Nokia 6630 since some years, and I *never* felt the need in a IR port having it bluetooth; what should I use a IR port for? anybody can illustrate me some uses for this? thanks in advance.
(hey, not complaining for a extra feature in this case, just curious :p)

[sk299]

One totally different thing:
the N900 has a IR port; I have a Nokia 6630 since some years, and I *never* felt the need in a IR port having it bluetooth; what should I use a IR port for? anybody can illustrate me some uses for this? thanks in advance.
(hey, not complaining for a extra feature in this case, just curious :p)

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31399&highlight=irreco

[SD69]

Holy S**t, please don't tell me I can't attach a self powered external HD (or ANY other self powered USB device) to the N900, it was really something I was looking to... :eek:
reading the link posted by qgil I didn't get if the problem is with the power of the device of incompatibility between USB hardware and the USB consortium rules... in this last case, wouldn't there have been the same problems with the previous internet tablets?? :confused:

USB consortium has strict rules for many aspects, including connectors. AFAIK, the previous tablets don't suffer this problem because they don't charge through USB port and, although they don't support USB host mode out of the box, a patch is available through the community.

[Laughing Man]

Ah so the reason why it wouldn't support USB host mode is because you can now charge the n900 over USB..

Bah, that's an awful tradeoff if so. I want both (it's useful being able to plug my flash drives into my n800).

[nilchak]

Now this is one thing I am dissapointed to hear.

Lack of MMS, smaller screen etc were ok and not something I would quibble over.
But lack of any USB Host mode seems like a real loss to me.
If its going to be my mobile computer, I would definitely need USB host so as to attach portable media (HDD) to it etc.

I thougt GA said he was sure USB Host mode would be supported via the host cable or something ... but Quim seems to lay to rest such an idea.

[GeneralAntilles]

I thougt GA said he was sure USB Host mode would be supported via the host cable or something ... but Quim seems to lay to rest such an idea.

My endless optimism is endlessly punished by Nokia.

[Bratag]

Well thats disappointing - but hardly nokias fault. Sounds like the issue is with the USB standards. People want to be able to charge with USB, so they have to take the tradeoff.

Have to admit I wish this wasnt the case.

[epilido]

My endless optimism is endlessly punished by Nokia.

Your optimism has gotten others hopes up only to now be dashed it would seem. Your strong presence and seeming depth of knowledge carry more weight than you think.......

Epi

[qgil]

GeneralAntilles and many others do their best to satisfy your thirst of news days, weeks and months before any official source does. It's a risky and exciting game. If you don't like it you can ignore it but please don't blame those making pronostics, most of the times based on technical accuracy.

The Maemo team also wanted this feature but for the reasons explained by Igor it was not possible. I don't think that yourselves in the same position would have made a different choice. "I want both" is a nice emotive sentence but not a realistic option we had in the time of making decisions.

[GeneralAntilles]

Your optimism has gotten others hopes up only to now be dashed it would seem. Your strong presence and seeming depth of knowledge carry more weight than you think.......


I'm as fallible as any other human. Speculation is always that and should be taken as such.

[sjgadsby]

The N900 doesn't support USB host mode and the limitation comes at hardware level.

And the shared punchline to two simultaneous, seemingly independent jokes slams home:

Maemo community (for past six months): With USB charging and only one port, how will we power our N900s while they're connected to all our USB gadgets?
Nokia: No worries! We're way ahead of you.
Maemo community (for years): With USB keyboards and mice at home and work, my Internet Tablet is one external display shy of the portable workstation of my dreams!
Nokia: Hey, we've added that video out you've been wanting...


Ah, well. It just means more creative solutions need be sought.

[SD69]

Sounds like the issue is with the USB standards. People want to be able to charge with USB, so they have to take the tradeoff.

I didn't mean to imply that USB standards compliance and USB charging are necessarily incompatible. As Nokia stated, they weren't able to solve the problem in the time they had.

[vkv.raju]

Well, I don't think people ever wanted "charging over USB" functionality at the expense of OTG though.

You could have kept the small charging connector and left the usb i/f (A type?) as like on the N810. Lacking a OTG is a big big let down IMHO. I know even noobs (like me) like this feature a lot and use it more often than we think. I am not sure, if it is justifiable to say that N900 is aimed at Tech Enthusiasts anymore. I care less about anything software-wise missing because if that is that important, some app would be later available for that. But anything missing on a hardware front IS a big disappointment.

First the Digital Compass and now this. By adding few advanced features, we are also missing some basic and well useful things.

Justification for not including MMS was that not many people use it or need it sorts of. But why this. We all knew that many people have been using this and will be using it, right?

So, is there no other way to achieve this even at the expense of adding a small connector or something?

[vkv.raju]

As Nokia stated, they weren't able to solve the problem in the time they had.

They must be kidding!

Looks like, Nokia didn't want to make the perfect device. They knowingly left an upgrade path?? Taking wrong cues from the fruit seller?? :confused:

Common Nokia, Keyboards and Mice will probably work with bluetooth, but how will my USB drives/HDDs work now :(

[Thesandlord]

Today is a SAD SAD SAD day...

There is absolutely no way, like absolutely no way that Host mode can be enabled? I mean, the 770, N800, and N810 had some form of host mode. Its super awesome.

I guess this kills Quake 3 on the TV (without bluetooth), using it with Cannon cameras and s10sh, USB quick transfers to thumb drives... wow...

It also kills the possibility of add on hardware, as some people were thinking about a USB compass and other stuff.

[theflew]

They must be kidding!

Looks like, Nokia didn't want to make the perfect device. They knowingly left an upgrade path?? Taking wrong cues from the fruit seller?? :confused:

Common Nokia, Keyboards and Mice will probably work with bluetooth, but how will my USB drives/HDDs work now :(

Network attached/shared?

[vkv.raju]

Network attached/shared?

How about when on the move? Also, not every router people have support USB drives!

[debernardis]

There's a new thread for discussing this relevant issue:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=330499#post330499

Better use it so that other people can look at the title and join the discussion.

[ysss]

How about when on the move? Also, not every router people have support USB drives!

Well, you can have PANs, albeit it'll tax some overhead in speed and power drain.

[NvyUs]

Blame the European commission, friends of the earth, green peace etc, for pushing for a standard in charging, all the big players signed up for it, in the future there will be just one standard charger for all devices no matter the manufacturer, now we have been set back lets vote no to the EU :)
I hope nokia find a solution in the future to make it happen in any upcoming devices.
On the bright side in 2010 we wont need 10 different chargers for all the different gadgets we intend to buy.

[deadmalc]

This has been discussed endlessly on #maemo, and much smarter people than myself preferred ext3 (including Nokia, it appears). Observation of flash memory survival rates (nearly 100% in what I've observed) seems to bear this out.

I'll stick to ext3, thanks.

It would be interesting to keep an eye on btrfs, that supposedly has an option "optimised" for flash devices - what ever the hell that means (in terms of real world performance) I don't really know.

Not exactly up to date or reliable info but
http://markmail.org/message/nnjqocag3hildwyz
interesting nevertheless

and from wiki http://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/FAQ#Is_Btrfs_optimized_for_SSD.3F

[deadmalc]

Well, I don't think people ever wanted "charging over USB" functionality at the expense of OTG though.


I would disagree, I desperately need charging over USB.
Especially if I'm using the N900 as much as I think I will, with USB charging it means I can charge my device almost anywhere.

[range]

Blame the European commission, friends of the earth, green peace etc, for pushing for a standard in charging, all the big players signed up for it, in the future there will be just one standard charger for all devices no matter the manufacturer, now we have been set back lets vote no to the EU :)


Yeah, but nobody forced the manufacturers to say "Hey, let's use USB for that!". :)

[javispedro]

Yeah, but nobody forced the manufacturers to say "Hey, let's use USB for that!". :)
Which, in my humble opinion, is the lamest thing they could ever decide. But we get what we deserve...

[attila77]

It would be interesting to keep an eye on btrfs, that supposedly has an option "optimised" for flash devices - what ever the hell that means (in terms of real world performance) I don't really know.

I don't think that has to do much with wear. On eMMC devices, there are so many layers between you and the actual device it's quite pointless to 'try' to do wear leveling yourself. That said, filesystems COULD be more flash friendly by taking into account flash block sizes, no head seek time, etc.

[matthewcc]

Possibly a very foolish question BUT who's 3g network will the euro version of the n900 run on if you were to bring it to the US?

[vkv.raju]

Possibly a very foolish question BUT who's 3g network will the euro version of the n900 run on if you were to bring it to the US?

If both the Euro and the US version are same (as currently thought), your N900 will work ONLY on T-Mobile USA's 3G network (1700 Mhz).

[allnameswereout]

So now that this feature is not available what are the proposed alternatives for use cases? TransferJet?

Folks, please, once and for all, let the system worry about flash wear, it's more than capable of doing it, don't burden yourself with it.

As for swap usage, it will definitively be used, Linux likes to keep memory empty for cache and buffers, so if you have something that isn't too active, it will end up on the swap sooner or later.Why doesn't Nokia use a FS which is specifically designed to run on flash like UBIFS or LogFS?

WHAT?

Does that mean it's impossible to use any USB periphery with the n900 - not even with power injection?

All previous NITs had this feature. USB support missing on the n900 would be a huge letdown.N900 has USB support. You mean USB host mode.

Maybe a USB powered hub with USB host mode could solve this? 2 in 1.

Ah so the reason why it wouldn't support USB host mode is because you can now charge the n900 over USB..I can charge my Iriver H340 over USB, and I can also use USB host mode on it, but I never used USB host mode, and the device has 2 USB. (Since Iriver H340 doesn't have 3G I couldn't use it with my digicam to upload pictures.)

It is possible to configure both features in software using the stock (!) firmware (don't know about Rockbox).

In theory, one could put a bigger 2"5 HDD in the H340 (stock is 2"5 40 GB, PATA) and use USB host mode to export this to the N900?

Or, is it then, that one would need to use the H340 because that is the device with USB host mode? In that case, a dumb device with a web interface (and preferably SSH) and USB host mode could function as a bridge.

[attila77]

So now that this feature is not available what are the proposed alternatives for use cases?

Why doesn't Nokia use a FS which is specifically designed to run on flash like UBIFS or LogFS?

Because that device is an eMMC block device, NOT a MTD device. Some years ago people realized it's a lot of fuss to work with MTD-s on the software level (wear leveling ? block management ? addressing ? error correction ? spare blocks ? MLC vs SLC ? CPU overhead ?), and put all this functionality, tailor made for that particular flash device, into something that is known as managed NAND (=aka eMMC).

Take a look for some pretty pictures at
http://download.micron.com/pdf/presentations/events/WinHEC_Cooke.pdf

(talks about eMMC around page 55)

[ldrn]

I would disagree, I desperately need charging over USB.
Especially if I'm using the N900 as much as I think I will, with USB charging it means I can charge my device almost anywhere.

I agree with this... For me, USB Host Mode would be nice, but USB charging was the deciding factor for me in upgrading. :)

It's a pity we can't have both, but it sounds like they did try pretty hard and it just wouldn't work out.

[eiffel]

It's a pity we can't have both, but it sounds like they did try pretty hard and it just wouldn't work out.

The problem isn't that it didn't work out, the problem is that we were strung along for so long: "Trust us with the details, we're sure when you see the lead Fremantle device it will be a great improvement and you'll love it".

And now my trust has been betrayed: the N900 is missing the things I valued about the N8x0: the screen size, the big battery, and now this: the loss of USB host functionality.

Maybe I need to wait a year (or whatever) for the RX-71. It sure would be nice to know something useful about Nokia's directions forwards from here with this "product line" (if the widely-differing Maemo devices can even be called a "product line").

Maybe the RX-71 is a slate with a 4.3 inch screen, big battery, and two USB OTG ports. More likely not.

Regards,
Roger

[legendemeritus]

well this IS only step 4 of a 5 step plan...

[eiffel]

well this IS only step 4 of a 5 step plan...

So what features are going to be removed or downgraded for step 5?

[frals]

The problem isn't that it didn't work out, the problem is that we were strung along for so long: "Trust us with the details, we're sure when you see the lead Fremantle device it will be a great improvement and you'll love it".

And now my trust has been betrayed: the N900 is missing the things I valued about the N8x0: the screen size, the big battery, and now this: the loss of USB host functionality.

Maybe I need to wait a year (or whatever) for the RX-71. It sure would be nice to know something useful about Nokia's directions forwards from here with this "product line" (if the widely-differing Maemo devices can even be called a "product line").

Maybe the RX-71 is a slate with a 4.3 inch screen, big battery, and two USB OTG ports. More likely not.

Regards,
Roger

On the other hand, I'm sure many people value the decreased screen size, the smaller casing and the other new features ;)

[legendemeritus]

lol, heck if i know. I agree with u, Nokia is giving us no direction where they want to go with Maemo. i was just repeating a 'line' that we've all heard before. sorry if the sarcasm wasn't emphasized...

[richie]

Swap is on a separate partition, so neither data nor application space will "chew up" swap space. Besides, there's no sane reason to have more than 768MB of swap anyway.

Read all the messages here about Swap, but can you switch off swap space in the settings? Or create a swap file or partition on a microSD on the N900?

Rich

[deadmalc]

I would assume that there are mkswap, swapon etc. commands so you can always do this manually

[allnameswereout]

Because that device is an eMMC block device, NOT a MTD device. Some years ago people realized it's a lot of fuss to work with MTD-s on the software level (wear leveling ? block management ? addressing ? error correction ? spare blocks ? MLC vs SLC ? CPU overhead ?), and put all this functionality, tailor made for that particular flash device, into something that is known as managed NAND (=aka eMMC).

Take a look for some pretty pictures at
http://download.micron.com/pdf/presentations/events/WinHEC_Cooke.pdf

(talks about eMMC around page 55)Never mind, I meant on /

My question is answered here: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2009-April/002226.html (and on Wikipedia)

Instead of JFFS2, UBIFS is now used.

[Bratag]

The problem isn't that it didn't work out, the problem is that we were strung along for so long: "Trust us with the details, we're sure when you see the lead Fremantle device it will be a great improvement and you'll love it".

And now my trust has been betrayed: the N900 is missing the things I valued about the N8x0: the screen size, the big battery, and now this: the loss of USB host functionality.

Maybe I need to wait a year (or whatever) for the RX-71. It sure would be nice to know something useful about Nokia's directions forwards from here with this "product line" (if the widely-differing Maemo devices can even be called a "product line").

Maybe the RX-71 is a slate with a 4.3 inch screen, big battery, and two USB OTG ports. More likely not.

Regards,
Roger

Then dont upgrade man. Seriously - its not like Nokia promised you the moon and didnt deliver, I am sure that many people feel the n900 IS a worth lead Fremantle device. They delivered a device that will please some people and obviously not please others. It sounds like the n900 is not the phone for you - but for a great many other people it is. Wait for a year - you may get the phone you want. Or its entirely possible you wont. Thats the way the world works.

[shadowjk]

Batterysize isn't everything. With the new cpu, doing exactly the same things as you would with n810 the battery would last longer even if it's smaller. Add to that the potential savings, if any, from the smaller screen... Subtract all the extra things youll do with the n900.. Hopefully the sum is near n810 battery performance in terms of user experience.

[eiffel]

With the new cpu, doing exactly the same things as you would with n810 the battery would last longer even if it's smaller.
That's true of course, but the use case that concerns me is web browsing. With my N810 and bluetooth phone, browsing the web over 3G is making use of two batteries: one in the tablet and one in the phone.

In the N900, one battery has to do both jobs.

Regards,
Roger

[qole]

The problem isn't that it didn't work out, the problem is that we were strung along for so long: "Trust us with the details, we're sure when you see the lead Fremantle device it will be a great improvement and you'll love it".

And now my trust has been betrayed: the N900 is missing the things I valued about the N8x0: the screen size, the big battery, and now this: the loss of USB host functionality.


So, have you seen the lead Fremantle device? I mean, other than in pictures and in youtube videos. If not, you really should. See if there's a Nokia store near you that has one, and take it for a test drive...

[frals]

That's true of course, but the use case that concerns me is web browsing. With my N810 and bluetooth phone, browsing the web over 3G is making use of two batteries: one in the tablet and one in the phone.

In the N900, one battery has to do both jobs.

Regards,
Roger

... except it won't have to do the bluetooth ;-)

[lma]

With my N810 and bluetooth phone, browsing the web over 3G is making use of two batteries: one in the tablet and one in the phone.

In the N900, one battery has to do both jobs.

That's somewhat offset by the N900 battery not having to feed both sides of a bluetooth PPP session. But yeah, 3G connectivity is probably the largest (or maybe second-largest after the screen?) battery drain on the device and there are advantages to offloading that to a separate device.

[GeneralAntilles]

That's true of course, but the use case that concerns me is web browsing. With my N810 and bluetooth phone, browsing the web over 3G is making use of two batteries: one in the tablet and one in the phone.

In the N900, one battery has to do both jobs.


Invalid comparison. The N900 doesn't have to power both sides of a Bluetooth link.

[shadowjk]

It's not entirely predicatble, but I'd say my e75 lasts longer idling on IRC by itself than serving out internet to N810 idling on IRC. Certainly on my old Nokia 6820, serving out internet over bluetooth uses huge amounts more..

hopefully IPv6 will arrive soon, and hopefully ISPs and operators wont **** it up into a similar mess as with IPv4. That would give lots of power savings for the mostly-idle use cases of IM and push email.

[Matan]

... except it won't have to do the bluetooth ;-)

Of course, bluetooth takes 2.5mW (times two for both sides of the connection), while HSDPA takes 2W, so there is much more HSDPA pain than bluetooth gain.

[Saturn]

Of course, bluetooth takes 2.5mW (times two for both sides of the connection), while HSDPA takes 2W, so there is much more HSDPA pain than bluetooth gain.

I don't remember where I read it, but ~2mW was the difference in the consumption if the BT was simply on instead of off and if receiving-transmitting should be ~1W. Could be really wrong though.

In any case, 2.5mW doesn't look like a realistic number for something transmitting/receiving. .

[attila77]

Don't forget these mW are for transmitted power, not power usage.

[eiffel]

So, have you seen the lead Fremantle device? ... If not, you really should. See if there's a Nokia store near you that has one, and take it for a test drive...

For sure I will test drive the device when I can, but there's nowhere in my city that has an N900. I notice that quite a few people here reported being "won over" by the device once they test drove it.

Maemo is exactly the software that I want on a mobile computer. A 3-row keyboard with a 3.5" screen, small battery, and small-but-fat form factor is exactly the hardware that I don't want on a mobile computer.

Not happy, after a year of promises. But I'll stop whining because it's not a constructive thing to do in a forum.

Regards,
Roger

[texaslabrat]

I don't remember where I read it, but ~2mW was the difference in the consumption if the BT was simply on instead of off and if receiving-transmitting should be ~1W. Could be really wrong though.

In any case, 2.5mW doesn't look like a realistic number for something transmitting/receiving. .

Depends on the class of bluetooth.

Class 2 has a maximum permitted transmission power of 2.5mW. Class 1 is 100mW. Either way, it's a lot less than the 3G radio's power. But that makes sense...bluetooth is generally talking to something in the same room...3G is talking to a tower hundreds of meters (or more) away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth

And has been noted...these numbers reflect the amount of power being radiated by the antenna...the underlying chip logic generating the signals consume energy in addition to that.

[Saturn]

Depends on the class of bluetooth.

Class 2 has a maximum permitted transmission power of 2.5mW. Class 1 is 100mW. Either way, it's a lot less than the 3G radio's power. But that makes sense...bluetooth is generally talking to something in the same room...3G is talking to a tower hundreds of meters (or more) away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth

And has been noted...these numbers reflect the amount of power being radiated by the antenna...the underlying chip logic generating the signals consume energy in addition to that.

:rolleyes:
Obviously I was talking about 'consumption'

I don't remember where I read it, but ~2mW was the difference in the consumption if the BT was simply on instead of off and if receiving-transmitting should be ~1W. Could be really wrong though.

In any case, 2.5mW doesn't look like a realistic number for something transmitting/receiving. .

since Matan said 'takes'

Of course, bluetooth takes 2.5mW (times two for both sides of the connection), while HSDPA takes 2W, so there is much more HSDPA pain than bluetooth gain.

I assumed takes = consumes, since he multiplies it by 2 when receiving and transmitting and the context of the conversation is battery consumption.

[texaslabrat]

:rolleyes:
Obviously I was talking about 'consumption'



since Matan said 'takes'



I assumed takes = consumes, since he multiplies it by 2 when receiving and transmitting and the context of the conversation is battery consumption.

Even so..."consumption" is likely in the 10's of milliwatts range (assuming class 2) no matter how you want to define it, with rolling eyes or not, and not in the whole-watt range as you have surmised. The chip doesn't take that much juice to run. By way of example, a typical usb bluetooth dongle has a maximum *total* power draw of around 400mW or less, and that's with all the logic to run the USB bus on top of the bluetooth logic and radio. In the OMAP3 platform, the bluetooth logic connects via a simple (and by comparison very efficient) serial bus to the chipset. Another example (and perhaps more telling) is that many bluetooth headsets consume on the order of 50mW when actively communicationg (http://www.techonline.com/product/underthehood/212000480?pgno=2) So, no matter how you slice it, the original argument stands insofar that the 3G radio is a FAR larger power hog than is the bluetooth stack.

[shadowjk]

I've seen bluetooth consume almost 150mA on an idle connection on N810, that's about 500mW :) Usually reconnecting brings the power use down. Radiated power is pretty insignificant compared to total power used by the radio.. Also noticeable with the wlan, where you basically see no measurable difference in power use between 10 and 100mW settings, not even when sending huge files from N8x0.

Another comparison point, streaming music (screen off) my N810 uses a bit more power (on wlan) than my E75 on edge. :)

[hypest]

Nope. Only volume + -, camera, lock and power buttons.


So, with the device in "standby" (screen off), in order to start a phone call, I have to turn it on (that's OK), start playing with the device in the air to bring it to an upright position so the phone App starts, touch the on-screen num buttons or select a phonebook entry and then touch the call screen-button? What happens if I'm lying on a bed where I hold the phone facing down? I still have to manage to convince the device to bring up the phoneApp...

Or else, I have to navigate to home screen and press a phoneApp shortcut etc?

I have a feeling that Nokia chose a WAY TOO minimalistic approach regarding the dedicated-operation buttons. Yesterday, I was really excited enough to pre-order it (when I "discovered" that it even has IR port!!), but today I'm thinking, I'll wait to see the next iterations and stick with my HTC Kaiser (:() and my 2 N800s (:))

hypest

[Kozzi]

So, with the device in "standby" (screen off), in order to start a phone call, I have to turn it on (that's OK), start playing with the device in the air to bring it to an upright position so the phone App starts, touch the on-screen num buttons or select a phonebook entry and then touch the call screen-button? What happens if I'm lying on a bed where I hold the phone facing down? I still have to manage to convince the device to bring up the phoneApp...
hypest

I think you can do it by 2 way.
- place phone shortcut on every homescreen.
- start typing a name (I read in some threads that n900 will start searching from contacts right away)

[mece]

Or else, I have to navigate to home screen and press a phoneApp shortcut etc?


I'm confused as to how this differs from any other phone? I need to navigate to the home screen on my N95 to make calls too. Incoming calls has a popup where you can click answer, so that is the same too.

[edgar2]

I'm confused as to how this differs from any other phone? I need to navigate to the home screen on my N95 to make calls too. Incoming calls has a popup where you can click answer, so that is the same too.

and wouldn't it even be possible to create a home screen shortcut to automatically give contact x a phone call? that would be even one step shorter than today's fastest method: key shortcut [1-9] + phone key.

[pelago]

- place phone shortcut on every homescreen.
Can you actually add the same app shortcut multiple times, I wonder?

[fanoush]

So, have you seen the lead Fremantle device? I mean, other than in pictures and in youtube videos. If not, you really should. See if there's a Nokia store near you that has one, and take it for a test drive...
Yes, first ask how long it boots, then ask about x terminal and run 'dmesg >MyDocs/x.txt' and then try web browser with your web mail account and send x.txt to yourself or post it here directly :-)

[hypest]

- start typing a name (I read in some threads that n900 will start searching from contacts right away)

this is a nice feature (HTC calls it smart-dialing and is really clever) but it needs the qwerty open and thus needs both your hands to hold and type-in! I do have such experience with my Kaiser (for strangers to HTC Kaiser: it's a qwerty equipped WindowsMobile phone, and quite similar to the n900: see the gsmarena.com comparison http://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone2=2917&idPhone1=2024) and let me tell you: qwerty open needs both your hands, or your risking dropping your precious ;)

I'm confused as to how this differs from any other phone? I need to navigate to the home screen on my N95 to make calls too.

Agree! The detail is that on your N95 you actually have a tactile button to quickly go to the home screen: the hangup button! This nice button is what I was using on all my Nokias too (and currently on my Kaiser) to quickly and successfully go to the home screen...

what I'm trying to say is that I appreciate the slickness of a button-less facade, so I would be happy with a button to bring up the phoneApp, even if this button is not in the front of the device. This button could be configurable so other people can use it for other purposes (eg. launch the browser!)... anyway, I'll cut the rant here... :)

hypest

[allnameswereout]

Yes, first ask how long it boots, then ask about x terminal and run 'dmesg >MyDocs/x.txt' and then try web browser with your web mail account and send x.txt to yourself or post it here directly :-)Twitter, Pastebin.ca ... :) (please do indeed! I'd love to test out Nokia N900 but I don't know where a Nokia shop is near me...)

[awwaiid]

Bah, that's an awful tradeoff if so. I want both (it's useful being able to plug my flash drives into my n800).

So all this discussion is interesting because I have an Openmoko Freerunner here that has the AB plug -- I flip a /sys kernel flag and it switches from regular (battery-charging/client) mode to host-mode (where it won't charge).

So odd that Openmoko solved this but Nokia did not. Perhaps OM didn't have to be as standards-compliant or something.

[attila77]

Yes, please keep in mind that Nokia has to tread more secure ground. Other, lower profile (for the general public, not geeks :) ) did not need to care that much if they have that USB certified sticker or not. For example USB configurations like the Pandora's and even the Beagleboard's are non-certifiable from the get-go (which doesn't make them non-functional, luckily :) )

[GeneralAntilles]

I've seen bluetooth consume almost 150mA on an idle connection on N810, that's about 500mW :) Usually reconnecting brings the power use down. Radiated power is pretty insignificant compared to total power used by the radio.. Also noticeable with the wlan, where you basically see no measurable difference in power use between 10 and 100mW settings, not even when sending huge files from N8x0.


The power actually used in radio transmission is a very small percentage of total power usage. As you say, this is why the 10/100mW option for WiFi on N8x0s isn't a powersaving option but a regulatory one.

[zerojay]

(Originally a slightly snarky reply to eiffel about how constructive whining is, but I didn't realize that I was responding to something much further back in the thread and that he had already said basically the same thing himself. My bad.)

The host mode thing may not be simply a matter of Nokia not finding a solution, but that they didn't have the time to implement it... or that hardware was already finalized when a solution was found. It could have been anything really.

[Jack6428]

hey, i have one question, which someone probably hasn't asked yet...and it is a silly one i guess, but here goes:

the n900 has 4 desktops... can i change the background for each desktop (thus having 4 desktops with each having a different background) ? coz on all the videos so far the 4 desktops were connected, looking as if they were made out of one large widescreen background image

[ragnar]

the n900 has 4 desktops... can i change the background for each desktop (thus having 4 desktops with each having a different background)

Yes you can. The defaults are just for a fun effect.

[Jack6428]

Yes you can. The defaults are just for a fun effect.

great, that's perfect for me..absolute freedom..finally no need to change the desktop all the time like on my old N70...man, when i get the N900...i guess i will lock myself up in a box and play with it till the battery dies lol...

[qole]

You'll discover that it is very cool, taking pictures of stuff with the camera (grass, bark, bricks, candies, beads, whatever) and then setting the picture as your background...

[allnameswereout]

You'll discover that it is very cool, taking pictures of stuff with the camera (grass, bark, bricks, candies, beads, whatever) and then setting the picture as your background...Given the camera uses same ratio as device sounds like whole new dimension :confused: :D

[ragnar]

Given the camera uses same ratio as device sounds like whole new dimension :confused: :D

Yes, it is definitely very cool. http://www.flickr.com/groups/1184299@N24/pool/ Many of those are probably taken for the desktop in mind.

[lderkacz]

Anyone knows the performance of the Internal Drive? read/write speeds?

[Laughing Man]

So I thought the iPhone 3GS's processor was only 600mhz but apparantly it's really 800 underclocked to 600. Is that the same as the n900? Or is the n900 stuck @ 600.

[attila77]

It's a 600 officially. It's OMAP3530 sibling (as seen in the Pandora) has, however, recently been up-rated to 720 MHz recently, so these things aren't set in stone.

[Laughing Man]

It's not set in stone as you could overclock it?

[GeneralAntilles]

It's a 600 officially. It's OMAP3530 sibling (as seen in the Pandora) has, however, recently been up-rated to 720 MHz recently, so these things aren't set in stone.

I think this is because the OMAP3530 moved to 45nm (i.e., OMAP36x) but I never actually saw the real announcement about this change.

[ysss]

I haven't been perusing the details, but there are slight differences in Cortex A8s (even the same model) depending on the implementor\fabricator..

In this case, Apple has contracted Samsung to make their A8s and the N900's one by Texas Instrument.

[Laughing Man]

Thanks ysss, that's what confusee me since they are both A8. Shame that it won't the possibility of the extra 200 mhz speed.

[attila77]

I think this is because the OMAP3530 moved to 45nm (i.e., OMAP36x) but I never actually saw the real announcement about this change.

The official docs (http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/omap3530) claim it's still 65nm...

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/TI-OMAP3530-720MHz-Rev-E/

[attila77]

It's not set in stone as you could overclock it?

Barring some silly board limitation, yes. Pandora folks demonstrated overclocking their rigs to 800-900MHz (http://openpandora.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/psx4pandora-running-on-angstrom/), but you probably wouldn't want to do that regularly, esp with the crammed heat/power budget of the N900 :)

[GeneralAntilles]

The official docs (http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/omap3530) claim it's still 65nm...

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/TI-OMAP3530-720MHz-Rev-E/

Interesting. Perhaps the larger package size on the OMAP3530 helps with heat dissipation?

Although the early ES2.x revision OMAP3530s had reliability issues running at 600MHz for extended periods.

[Rushmore]

There are a few hardware points obviously missing from the specs, so, no jumping to conclusions just yet :) (for example, then don't list anything about the front-panel light/proximity sensors, of if the video section applies to the main camera or the user-facing cam). I don't really expect any more from Skype and Adobe than then did the last time around. That 9.4 flash version might be an achilles heel for web usage considering some sites already go for v10 :(

Flash 9.4 covers most sites, but I expect Nokia to also get Flash 10 mobile when it is released in February (ish).

The positive is it is full Flash and reports are that it plays every site tried but hidef Flash is not smooth (It is not on netbooks either). Flash is a resource beast, hence chopped down versions on phones except the n900- until Flash 10 (in theory).

Point is this device has the best Flash support of any current phone.

On a side note- they better add an audio EQ ! ;)

[Rushmore]

The problem isn't that it didn't work out, the problem is that we were strung along for so long: "Trust us with the details, we're sure when you see the lead Fremantle device it will be a great improvement and you'll love it".

And now my trust has been betrayed: the N900 is missing the things I valued about the N8x0: the screen size, the big battery, and now this: the loss of USB host functionality.

Maybe I need to wait a year (or whatever) for the RX-71. It sure would be nice to know something useful about Nokia's directions forwards from here with this "product line" (if the widely-differing Maemo devices can even be called a "product line").

Maybe the RX-71 is a slate with a 4.3 inch screen, big battery, and two USB OTG ports. More likely not.

Regards,
Roger

This of course is a phone so a balance of compromises had to take place. Still, I wish it has number keys and a d-pad :(

Still ordered one anyway :) Too much power and features to turn down. Most complete multi function device evah'... at least for a few months ;)

[hypest]

...getting back to the "launching the phone dialer" issue, does anyone know if the Capture hardware key supports 2-level pressing? E.g. half-press and full-press.

What I have in mind is that, I suppose, it won't be too hard to remap "half-press" to launch the dialer. (other users may prefer to remap to the "home menu").

If 2-level pressing is not there, maybe a software hack will do the trick by implementing "short press" and "long press"...

touch-based UIs are the hype, ok, but nothing beats the functionality of one or two hardware keys ;)

[andree]

...getting back to the "launching the phone dialer" issue, does anyone know if the Capture hardware key supports 2-level pressing? E.g. half-press and full-press.

What I have in mind is that, I suppose, it won't be too hard to remap "half-press" to launch the dialer. (other users may prefer to remap to the "home menu").

If 2-level pressing is not there, maybe a software hack will do the trick by implementing "short press" and "long press"...

touch-based UIs are the hype, ok, but nothing beats the functionality of one or two hardware keys ;)

I agree - I was quite dissapointed seeing that n900 doesn't have any hw buttons in front (at least some for call start&termination).. but oh, well...

however, I too think about remapping some buttons to do some stuff (like volume buttons to control audio player - mentioned here http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/hardware-keys_should_control_media-player-even_when_locked ).

and as the camera will probably only be used when the camera cover is cleared, I think that remapping the shutter (in case of disabled camera) is a logical must :)) I know I'll try to do figure out how to do it :)

[pelago]

...getting back to the "launching the phone dialer" issue, does anyone know if the Capture hardware key supports 2-level pressing? E.g. half-press and full-press
I'm pretty sure I read that it does do that (probably in the my-symbian preview).

[jandmdickerson]

Has the widget that shows the lyrics for the currently playing music been identified in other videos or reviews? At about 7:20 in this video you can see a widget showing the lyrics to the Linkin Park song playing on the media player. Sorry if this has already been discussed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TrpSsZIiRg&translated=1

[Thesandlord]

Quick question, does it take video/pictures in vertical mode like the iPhone? That lyrics widget looks cool also.

[pycage]

Has the widget that shows the lyrics for the currently playing music been identified in other videos or reviews? At about 7:20 in this video you can see a widget showing the lyrics to the Linkin Park song playing on the media player. Sorry if this has already been discussed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TrpSsZIiRg&translated=1

This icon looks like TuneWiki which you can already find on Android and maybe iPhone. It hardly ever finds lyrics, though. But for mainstream music it should be OK.

[eiffel]

... does it take video/pictures in vertical mode ...
That's a good question. I've been trying to work out exactly what is meant by this item in the specifications (http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/):

Camera: Landscape (horizontal) orientation

Regards,
Roger

[kapianna]

Hi

Does the N900 have any "search" facility to search through files / contacts / appointments / music / emails etc in the "Out of the box" configuration?

Best Regards

Mukund

[GeneralAntilles]

Does the N900 have any "search" facility to search through files / contacts / appointments / music / emails etc in the "Out of the box" configuration?


Yes, Maemo 5 uses Tracker (http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/) to index (think Spotlight).

[pelago]

Yes, Maemo 5 uses Tracker (http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/) to index (think Spotlight).
Has anyone seen the UI for that yet?

[pycage]

Has anyone seen the UI for that yet?

X-Terminal? ;)

[vinc17]

Yes, Maemo 5 uses Tracker (http://www.gnome.org/projects/tracker/) to index (think Spotlight).
I hope it works better than Spotlight, which has never been able to index my text/plain files. I also hope that it can do automatic charset recognition (as many of my files are in French but use either ISO-8859-1 or UTF-8).

[konttori]

The tracker plans were shifted drmatically during fremantle development and it's really just metadata harvester/db, not a FTS system. It's easy enough to re-enable FTS, but it comes with a cost in indexing times, which was not an option. So, instead the advanced tracker use went to harmattan. What I would like to see us doing is upgrading in fremantle to the harmattan tracker at some point next year so that you devs would be able to start using the wicked cool stuff tracker 0.7 has available.

[blackbox]

Is it me, or has anyone noticed that you cant view the N900 on nokiausa's SUPPORT website?!

I remember being able to select the device, and downloading the specifications, but its no longer there. Maybe they are updating it, hence a release is around the bend. :)

[franklinn]

I'm all for the N900 and still saving up for it but I have to say the specs now pale in comparison to the Windows Mobile 6.5 based HTC HD2 - 4.3 inch screen ? 1GHZ CPU ? what !!. I'll have to check this out surely. HTC is making all the right moves. Nokia, you better sit up !

Screen size 4.3in.
Screen resolution 480 x 800
Keyboard/keypad on-screen only
Dimensions 67 x 120.5 x 11mm
Weight 157g
Connectivity GSM (850/900/1800/1900MHz), GPRS, HSPA
Wi-Fi 802.11b/g
Bluetooth 2.1
GPS yes
Main camera 5 megapixels
Front-facing camera no
CPU 1GHz Snapdragon
Memory 448MB RAM, 512MB ROM
Expansion slot microSD

[slate8]

You lost me at Windows Mobile... ;)

[andree]

I'm all for the N900 and still saving up for it but I have to say the specs now pale in comparison to the Windows Mobile 6.5 based HTC HD2 - 4.3 inch screen ? 1GHZ CPU ? what !!. I'll have to check this out surely. HTC is making all the right moves. Nokia, you better sit up !


the question here is, whether the 1200mAh battery will keep up to the hardware - there's a good chance you end up with a mobile computer (3 hours of work), instead of mobile phone (12+..) :)

but the hardware is impressive.. in fact, if Maemo was portable to it, I'd probably prefer it over n900, even with the battery isue :))

[pycage]

1 GHz sounds great, but what does it mean to battery life?

[franklinn]

1 GHz sounds great, but what does it mean to battery life?

True battery life is the holy grail now.

Is Linux kernel used in Maemo optimised especially for power efficiency or is this the full blown Linux kernel ? - forgive my ignorance.

Of all the Mobile OS' out there, Symbian appears to be the best at this - E71 just goes on and on. This is probably why Nokia will stick to Symbian for the forseeable future. Its fit for purpose for Mobile devices - perhaps not for the heavy lifting that Maemo does . Symbian^3 and 4 may change all that though with its 64bit file system, enhanced comms architecture etc.

[Crashdamage]

...the N900...specs now pale in comparison to the Windows Mobile 6.5 based HTC HD2 - 4.3 inch screen ? 1GHZ CPU ?

Screen size 4.3in.
Screen resolution 480 x 800
Keyboard/keypad on-screen only
Dimensions 67 x 120.5 x 11mm
Weight 157g
Connectivity GSM (850/900/1800/1900MHz), GPRS, HSPA
Wi-Fi 802.11b/g
Bluetooth 2.1
GPS yes
Main camera 5 megapixels
Front-facing camera no
CPU 1GHz Snapdragon
Memory 448MB RAM, 512MB ROM
Expansion slot microSD
??? Those specs hardly dominate the N900.

1000GHz Snapdragon ARM vs 600GHz ARM - ok you get that one, but...
4.3 vs 3.5 screen - depends on what you use the device for. I consider the smaller screen a major advantage.
On-screen VK keyboard only vs both VK + HK - N900.
448MB RAM vs 256MB + swap for up to 1G - call it even since swap is slower.
512MB ROM vs 32G ROM (1G+ for apps) - no contest. N900.

Otherwise, specs are pretty even. For my purposes, I give a large edge to the N900. But, that's only considering the hardware. WinMo...you can't be serious...you'll need that Snapdragon...

[franklinn]

??? Those specs hardly dominate the N900.

1000GHz Snapdragon ARM vs 600GHz ARM - ok you get that one, but...
4.3 vs 3.5 screen - depends on what you use the device for. I consider the smaller screen a major advantage.
On-screen VK keyboard only vs both VK + HK - N900.
448MB RAM vs 256MB + swap for up to 1G - call it even since swap is slower.
512MB ROM vs 32G ROM (1G+ for apps) - no contest. N900.

Otherwise, specs are pretty even. For my purposes, I give a large edge to the N900. But, that's only considering the hardware. WinMo...you can't be serious...you'll need that Snapdragon...

its WinMo 6.5 mind you. Yes but its still WinMo. I wont count Microsoft out though - if ZunedHD is anything to go by then WinMo7 will be HOT.

[pelago]

??? Those specs hardly dominate the N900.
No front facing camera either...

[peio]

I am tempted by the HD2 too, so I tried to make a comparison based only on specs sheets and not on winmo/maemo comparison:

N900---------------HD2-------------Comments

32+16Go > 16Go
Stereo speakers > not so good speaker
kickstand > additional accessories(GPS support etc)
5M photo > 5M photo not sure
video recording > video recording
physical keyboard > no
16M colors > 64k colors
FM transmitter > no
tv-out > no
Front camera > no
Price > Price


800x640 = 800x640


3.5' screen < 4.3'
no turn-by-turn < tomtom/navigon/copilot etc... To be solved?
pocketability < pocketability (a lot thinner) subjective
no compass < compass


Cortex A8 600Mhz ? Snapdragon 1Ghz Tests?
Battery ? Battery Tests?
resistive ? capacitive Depends on needs
RAM256Mo->1Go ? RAM 448Mo
micro usb ? mini usb


So in the end that's lot of advantages for the N900, despite the apparences :p
For me, the lack of FM transmitter and the limitation to 16Go are really minus points for the HD2. And the smaller screen of the N900 is compensated by the same resolution.
Plus the price of HD2 + 16Go Sd card + accessories >> N900
So only considering the hardware, I still pick the N900, even if I'd like the HD2 screen

And I'm 10x more attracted by the novelty of maemo OS than by the HTC touch flo that I've already use for too long (even if the new version seems cool) :)

[Bratag]

Don't forget the processor in the n900 is technically capable of 1Ghz but has been throttled for battery life.

[eiffel]

I think it boils down to the large screen and slim form factor of the HD2, versus the N900's QWERTY keyboard, 32GB storage, more consistent interface, better camera, lower price and open source software.

I tried to make a comprehensive comparison chart (http://quezi.com/10114), but it hasn't helped me to decide. Do I want to get a superb device that will leave me forever squinting, panning and zooming, and will bulge in my pocket? Or do I want to get a fabulous screen with my perfect form factor, loaded with an operating system that will make me feel dirty and compromised every time I use it?

Some people say "don't knock a 3.5 inch screen until you've tried it", but I know from the N800/N810 that many websites are barely usable for me on a 4.13 inch 800x480 screen.

Video demos always use sites like the NYT or the BBC which have narrow columns and can be double-clicked to zoom them into nice readability, but the real web doesn't work like that. You might need to view an 800-pixel-wide diagram, or a wide table (PayPal history, for example) where zooming is useless and you really want to be able to see the whole thing at once on a screen as large as possible.

Regards,
Roger

[SubCore]

I tried to make a comprehensive comparison chart (http://quezi.com/10114)

You write in that chart (which is very well done, btw) that the HD2 supports USB host mode on micro USB. where did you get that info?
As far as i understand the USB host issue, it's the USB specs (specifically the Micro USB port) that prevent the N900 from providing host mode, because this port is meant to be the standard charging method. Is this any different on the HD2?

[R-R]

800x640 = 800x640

It's 800x480 :-)

[GeneralAntilles]

Is Linux kernel used in Maemo optimised especially for power efficiency or is this the full blown Linux kernel ? - forgive my ignorance.

Well, it's optimized for power saving but it's also the full-blown Linux kernel. Nokia has been one of the largest mobile contributors to Linux over the past 4 years and the results have been a lot of significantly powersaving optimizations for the kernel.

[eiffel]

You write in that chart (which is very well done, btw) that the HD2 supports USB host mode on micro USB. where did you get that info?
I can't confirm USB host mode support from any official HTC docs, but it is mentioned by various XDA developers (e.g. in the photo caption here (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=4658503&postcount=479)). As they were spot-on about the other specs I think they are probably correct about USB host mode too.

Anyway, I've changed the chart to say "possibly with USB host mode".

As far as i understand the USB host issue, it's the USB specs
I've heard that too, but I don't understand it. The Toshiba TG01 has USB host, for example (confirmed by this hands-on review (http://www.phonearena.com/htmls/Toshiba-TG01-Review-review-r_2238.html), where they say "Allowing the phone to act as a USB host, we used the cable to bridge it with a USB flash memory and it performed really well.").

Regards,
Roger

[franklinn]

HTC just posted a video ofthe HD2 to Youtube. It looks impressive I must admit.

What interesting times we live in !. N900 seems to be destined to thrash all before it and then HTC launch this large screen slimline beast which by the looks of it will make a huge impression. HTC is hot right now.

Say what you like about WinMo, at least it has the apps - that is where I fear Maemo will struggle. Maemo has a killer app though - XTerm .

[Bratag]

I probably wont buy another HTC phone ever. Their constant lack of inclusion of a headphone jack on phone after phone after phone (yes I know they do it now, but STILL not on every phne they make) has left me soured on their stuff.

Add to that every HTC phone I have had has had to be replaced at least once within the first 12 months.

I have a 10 year old nokia that STILL works.

[adhika_rexuss]

I wonder if N900 will have a multi touch function like iPhone has.
I think it is a really useful feature.

anyone knows about this?

[quingu]

I wonder if N900 will have a multi touch function like iPhone has.
I think it is a really useful feature.

anyone knows about this?

Yes, you can touch the screen with multiple things, including your finger, fingernail or stylus. Iphone doesn't have this feature tho, you can only touch that with your finger - bad when using gloves etc.

[ysss]

@andhika: no, the resistive screen on the n900 is not multitouch capable.

[adhika_rexuss]

quingu, I was referring to the function where we can use two fingers to zoom in or zoom out for example.

[adhika_rexuss]

@andhika: no, the resistive screen on the n900 is not multitouch capable.

hi ysss thanks a lot for your answer, I hope it could be changed to multi touch that I wanted.

btw you've missed type my name, I don't have N characters in my name. I'm sorry for being so ignorant

[pelago]

hi ysss thanks a lot for your answer, I hope it could be changed to multi touch that I wanted.
The N900 itself will never have multi-touch, as it's a hardware thing. Maybe future devices running Maemo will, although there's been no announcement about that.

[ossipena]

quingu, I was referring to the function where we can use two fingers to zoom in or zoom out for example.

one could draw a circle for same effect with n900 for example. what's the difference? yes, you don't have to do nothing special like bringing another finger on the screen.

[pycage]

Or you could use hardware keys for zooming (and double-click for zooming on paragrpahs in the browser). This is much more comfortable than trying to perform two-finger gestures while having to hold the phone with the other hand. :)

[ysss]

Chill out, guys :) no need to be unnecessarily defensive of resistive vs capacitive.. he only asked if the screen was multitouch capable or not. Nothing else..

@ossipena: 2 fingers gestures are arguably more precise and versatile as you can pan, scale and twist with 2 fingers all at the same time if the software supports it.

@pycage: btw, 2 finger gestures are mostly used by the 2 thumbs while holding.

[Laughing Man]

I think you could, just not true multitouch. Libqbase has a multitouch like feature in the regard of mimicing pressing two inputs.

[adhika_rexuss]

Chill out, guys :) no need to be unnecessarily defensive of resistive vs capacitive.. he only asked if the screen was multitouch capable or not. Nothing else..

@ossipena: 2 fingers gestures are arguably more precise and versatile as you can pan, scale and twist with 2 fingers all at the same time if the software supports it.

@pycage: btw, 2 finger gestures are mostly used by the 2 thumbs while holding.

Thanks ysss, I don't mind if N900 doesn't follow the way iPhone does on zooming and other multi touch functionality.
I was just asking and hopefully any of you could explain the way we do zooming in N900, because I think the two fingers thing is something fun in iPhone.

[liveslow]

Quick question:

Does the N900 support multi-tasking while on a phone call? (IE talking on speaker phone while looking up other contact info, sending sms, etc.)

This is a pretty standard feature so I'm assuming it will, but a definite yes/no?

[Mandibela]

Quick question:

Does the N900 support multi-tasking while on a phone call? (IE talking on speaker phone while looking up other contact info, sending sms, etc.)

This is a pretty standard feature so I'm assuming it will, but a definite yes/no?

Yes. http://www.youtube.com/user/Maemo5UITeam The "Calendar" video around 0:50 ->

[RevdKathy]

It's that wretched screen that keeps me from ordering the HTC HD2. In other respects, despite being windoze, it will do everything I want out of the box. But I have serious reservations about that capacitive screen and my fingers: I have built in styli on every finger (sometimes varnished pretty pink) not to mention a habit of having my hands in water or worse when the phone rings.

The n900, on the other hand won't do what I want out of the box, and probably won't ever do some of that. But it will do all sorts of things I hadn't thought of.

I suspect in the end I shall have to go for a smart phone: I don't think the 'always on' nature of the n900 is meant for far flung rural places where there are so many spots with no signal. I fear an n900 would strangle its battery if it lived here. Many devices do.

[pelago]

Yes. http://www.youtube.com/user/Maemo5UITeam The "Calendar" video around 0:50 ->
The thing that isn't clear in that video is whether you can continue to speak with the person while the phone app isn't in focus.

[Flandry]

Thanks ysss, I don't mind if N900 doesn't follow the way iPhone does on zooming and other multi touch functionality.
I was just asking and hopefully any of you could explain the way we do zooming in N900, because I think the two fingers thing is something fun in iPhone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qkXBMOyvtU

You should watch the demo videos. There are a lot of them around now and they show most of the UI.

[GeneralAntilles]

The thing that isn't clear in that video is whether you can continue to speak with the person while the phone app isn't in focus.

Of course you can. . . .

[nymajoak]

Of course you can. . . .
Thanks.

Oh and by the way (this might be a good thread to bring it up), have I understood it correctly that the NDA was lifted today? ... :)

[hypest]

not sure if this is already mentioned/asked: To what extent does the touch sensitive area goes? In particular, how far to the right (landscape oriented)? I get the feeling from the various videos, that the sensitive area is certainly beyond the screen.

I'm thinking, if there is enough area over there, maybe it won't be too hard to introduce/implement simple gestures such as "up" and "down" and map them to arbitrary functions... bring up the dialer for example :)

[adhika_rexuss]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qkXBMOyvtU

You should watch the demo videos. There are a lot of them around now and they show most of the UI.

Hi Flandry, thanks a lot. In fact I've seen lots of videos this morning and finally I know that I don't even need two fingers anymore :)
Moving our finger with a spiral shape can do the zoom in and zoom out.

That's good enough for me. I can say that I'm quite satisfied with this zoom feature.

[adhika_rexuss]

We basically can open any website, but I never seen if it can open the apple movie trailer page. I didn't even see any specification mentioned that N900 can play Quicktime videos.

I don't know if this is going to be useful in the long run, but youtube is good enough so far.

[pycage]

Thanks.

Oh and by the way (this might be a good thread to bring it up), have I understood it correctly that the NDA was lifted today? ... :)

Yes, Nokia finally let the cat out of the bag yesterday and we're finally allowed to talk about our devices.

[tescatlipoca]

Battery Times:

Always online: Up to 2-4 days (TCP/IP connected)
Talk time: Up to 5hrs WCDMA, 9hrs GSM
Active online usage: Up to 1+ day
personal email accounts

mine barely makes the day without less than normal usage!!! what is the secret??

[maxximuscool]

the secret to make your N900 last more than a day is to not open any Flash contents and close all Widgets. Those you closed your Browser, the Flash will still be running at the background and draining your battery. Clear your browser cache. Turn off 3G data. :D this would help atleast 4hours

[tharanga]

Battery Times:

Always online: Up to 2-4 days (TCP/IP connected)
Talk time: Up to 5hrs WCDMA, 9hrs GSM
Active online usage: Up to 1+ day
personal email accounts

I just bought a N 900. I am test driving it for the battery life. I am a frequent user of skype(for calling) via mobile so I am online at least 2 hours a day. During the rest of the time I am I am listening to to music and it does not last for more than 10 hours..

is this a reasonable time or should I be worried or is this normal.(Even though it is unacceptable...)

[aa51575]

Battery Times:

Always online: Up to 2-4 days (TCP/IP connected)
Talk time: Up to 5hrs WCDMA, 9hrs GSM
Active online usage: Up to 1+ day
personal email accounts

It would be very kind of you, if you let us know about the battery times if we are using 3G connectivity. How much it will get discharged.

I am going to purchase a new n900.