What disappoint me in Maemo 5.

[korbé]

Hello everyone.

(and yes, I will still grumble :D)

I love the new N900 and Maemo 5, but one thing bothers me.

There is no vertical display mode for Maemo 5 (menus, desktops and software pre-installed) excluding the application "Phone".

I find that sad, especially since all competing devices with a touch screen and accelerometers have a display mode horizontal and vertical.

Moreover, the vertical display mode is very convenient: taking the N900 vertically, it can be used with one hand.

Without vertical display mode (and therefore able to use the device with one hand), many buyers may withdraw or return the device in store.

Then I ask myself the question that many people are facing a situation they do not understand: why?

Is this included in a future update?

If someone going to Nokia World, can request information on this subject to an official from Nokia?

PS: I'm sorry to complain again. :D But this is one of the few things that might not make me buy the N900.

[krisse]

There is no vertical display mode for Maemo 5 (menus, desktops and software pre-installed) excluding the application "Phone".

I agree that all functions ought to be accessible in vertical mode for one hand use.

But we don't know exactly what the situation is until it launches, and even if your worst fears were true they could correct this in a firmware update. And they would definitely do so if enough people complain.

Nokia's N95 launched without screen rotation for example, but got it in a firmware update.

[konttori]

keyboard makes landscape the 'preferred' format.

[Paxicide]

Hello everyone.

(and yes, I will still grumble :D)

I love the new N900 and Maemo 5, but one thing bothers me.

There is no vertical display mode for Maemo 5 (menus, desktops and software pre-installed) excluding the application "Phone".

I find that sad, especially since all competing devices with a touch screen and accelerometers have a display mode horizontal and vertical.

Moreover, the vertical display mode is very convenient: taking the N900 vertically, it can be used with one hand.

Without vertical display mode (and therefore able to use the device with one hand), many buyers may withdraw or return the device in store.

Then I ask myself the question that many people are facing a situation they do not understand: why?

Is this included in a future update?

If someone going to Nokia World, can request information on this subject to an official from Nokia?

PS: I'm sorry to complain again. :D But this is one of the few things that might not make me buy the N900.

It is up the application to decide. This was already discussed based on the SDK documentation in other threads.

Since you have been asking about this see this post (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=317244&postcount=2).

[Den in USA]

keyboard makes landscape the 'preferred' format.

Good point!

[sachin007]

keyboard makes landscape the 'preferred' format.

True but i dont expect to use the keyboard all the time. I would use the touch screen only for basic browsing and checking updates of widgets. I think it would be a good idea to support everything for both potrait and landscape view and the orientation can automatically siwtch to landscape with the opening of the keyboard.

[korbé]

keyboard makes landscape the 'preferred' format.

Not for the HTC G1. Yet it have got a "landscape" keyboard as the N900

It is up the application to decide. This was already discussed based on the SDK documentation in other threads.

Since you have been asking about this see this post (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=317244&postcount=2).

I was not talking about software third, but the Maemo OS and software pre-installed.

[Venemo]

Watching the videos about the UI, there is one more question: Are there actually any scroll bars in Maemo? Because it's very nice to scroll through lists the way the video shows us... but, without a scroll bar how do I know where I am in the entire list? Sometimes it isn't evident.

[attila77]

It's hard to do right. Even if you do it for system apps (effectively doubling UI work), you can't count on 3rd party apps (and on Maemo we've got plenty of those) to implement it, so you would get inconsistent real quick.

[korbé]

It's hard to do right. Even if you do it for system apps (effectively doubling UI work), you can't count on 3rd party apps (and on Maemo we've got plenty of those) to implement it, so you would get inconsistent real quick.

I do not understand how to develop software in the display mode you want (vertical or horizontal) may pose a problem.

[SD69]

Watching the videos about the UI, there is one more question: Are there actually any scroll bars in Maemo? Because it's very nice to scroll through lists the way the video shows us... but, without a scroll bar how do I know where I am in the entire list? Sometimes it isn't evident.I doubt there are scroll bars in Maemo 5. Yes, they knew about the contextual issue you mentioned but probably dropped them anyway.

[attila77]

I do not understand how to develop software in the display mode you want (vertical or horizontal) may pose a problem.

You can develop in the way you want, but Fremantle, as an OS, does not give you any OS level support for that (apart from signalling the changes). This, in other words, means extra work for developers if they want to implement both orientations.

[korbé]

You can develop in the way you want, but Fremantle, as an OS, does not give you any OS level support for that (apart from signalling the changes). This, in other words, means extra work for developers if they want to implement both orientations.

I never said it was the OS to manage the display modes of third party software. (my English is not so bad)

I think the OS that can appear in vertical mode, is a weak point because not usable with one hand.

[Paxicide]

I never said it was the OS to manage the display modes of third party software. (my English is not so bad)

I think the OS that can appear in vertical mode, is a weak point because not usable with one hand.

For the money the n900 cost I will always use two hands, since I dont want to drop it...:p

[sjgadsby]

Even if you [support both portrait and landscape orientation] for system apps (effectively doubling UI work)...

Nokia may well be saving this for Harmattan, where they need to rewrite all the application UIs anyway.

Up through Diablo, Maemo devices were (barring hacks) landscape-only Internet Tablets. Fremantle devices appear to be pocket computers with phone capabilities. Harmattan devices may use oFono and have more fully integrated phone, and portrait, capabilities.

[pelago]

Watching the videos about the UI, there is one more question: Are there actually any scroll bars in Maemo? Because it's very nice to scroll through lists the way the video shows us... but, without a scroll bar how do I know where I am in the entire list? Sometimes it isn't evident.
I'm assuming/hoping that there will be a small indicator in the margin where a scrollbar that will normally be that shows you how far you are in a list, but which fades out when you stop scrolling. Like Canola and iPhone.

[sachin007]

I'm assuming/hoping that there will be a small indicator in the margin where a scrollbar that will normally be that shows you how far you are in a list, but which fades out when you stop scrolling. Like Canola and iPhone.

Something like the one in mauku will be nice.

[krisse]

keyboard makes landscape the 'preferred' format.

Definitely, but from my experience with the N97 (which has very similar form factor and functionality) there are many many many situations where you would want to use the N900 in vertical mode too.

For example if I'm walking with a bag I simply cannot hold the device in two hands, but I may still want to access some of its functions (for example changing tracks on the music player, checking my e-mail, changing radio stations etc).

And if you want to write with one hand (which many people do on messages of various kinds) you'd need a vertical mode with a virtual keypad.

One of the main reasons the Nokia 5800 has sold so well is possibly because it is a touchscreen smartphone that works just as well one-handed as it does two-handed. Its narrow screen and vertical modes for almost every application mean you can use it just like a normal mobile phone if you wanted to. It even has a virtual predictive text keypad which I find very useful for messaging, my text entry speed is extremely high on the 5800's virtual keypad because I've been using predictive text mobiles for about seven years now.

[dwould]

since this appears to be the slight grumbles thread...did anyone else think the video showed a clunky move from gtalk chat to phone call. given how slick the rest was.I expected the message 'I'll call you' to be followed by clicking on the contacts picture in the chat session and being taken back to the contact details. Instead it exits chat, scolls to screen with shortcut for contact, selects it then calls. hopefully things can be done to reduce steps for common work patterns.

[christexaport]

how is it so hard when it works perfectly in the N95 and N97 with autorotate?

[christexaport]

since this appears to be the slight grumbles thread...did anyone else think the video showed a clunky move from gtalk chat to phone call. given how slick the rest was.I expected the message 'I'll call you' to be followed by clicking on the contacts picture in the chat session and being taken back to the contact details. Instead it exits chat, scolls to screen with shortcut for contact, selects it then calls. hopefully things can be done to reduce steps for common work patterns.

with all the possible calling options, the contact view may be necessary. many people have 2 and 3 numbers plus a web calling sip account, maybe even a voice chat presence. which call do you make?

[zerojay]

since this appears to be the slight grumbles thread...did anyone else think the video showed a clunky move from gtalk chat to phone call. given how slick the rest was.I expected the message 'I'll call you' to be followed by clicking on the contacts picture in the chat session and being taken back to the contact details. Instead it exits chat, scolls to screen with shortcut for contact, selects it then calls. hopefully things can be done to reduce steps for common work patterns.

It was probably done on purpose that way just to reenforce the idea of the widgets on the desktop. I fully expect a shortcut to be there on the device as it has in previous ones.

[hhedberg]

Something like the one in mauku will be nice.

Yes, Maemo 5 UI is very similar than the old Mauku UI. ;) At least kinetic scrolling and scroll indicators are almost the same, but the indicator is not over the scrolling content but on the side of it in Maemo 5. In addition, dialogs have been on the bottom of the screen in Mauku since version 0.something. :)

[korbé]

he problem is that most people expect a display mode horizontal AND vertical in all OS (except some software and third-party software) because this is what Competitors make.

When will people realize that there is no vertical display mode, Nokia could not sell more than N900 to N810.

[attila77]

he problem is that most people expect a display mode horizontal AND vertical in all OS (except some software and third-party software) because this is what Competitors make.

I don't see iPhone users struggling because they have different UIs than most Competitors... I remember when I first sat in a Yaris, I was shocked to see that they put the dials in the middle of the dashboard and not behind the steering wheel. It took me about an hour to get used to it, and had no problems ever since, even when I switch cars.

What I'm saying is don't prejudice things with 'people wont like/use X because every manufacturer does Y'. I'm pretty certain Nokia did their homework and would have pushed much harder on orientation stuff if the results showed people having trouble with landscape. After all, I don't see why surfing or emails on the N900 require portrait mode any more than they did on the N810 (and of all the complaints, on the forums, portrait mode is pretty much at the bottom).

[zerojay]

he problem is that most people expect a display mode horizontal AND vertical in all OS (except some software and third-party software) because this is what Competitors make.

When will people realize that there is no vertical display mode, Nokia could not sell more than N900 to N810.

I don't know anyone in the real world that uses vertical display mode on any of their phones. I know I never have either... and I never had any desire to rotate my tablets either.

[ysss]

@zerojay: the NITs were too wide (tall?) to be held vertically. You'll want to use the N900 vertically when you get hold of them..

[pelago]

with all the possible calling options, the contact view may be necessary. many people have 2 and 3 numbers plus a web calling sip account, maybe even a voice chat presence. which call do you make?
I think the idea was that you should be able to get to the contact view by clicking of the person's icon in chat (or some other direct method), rather than immediately initiating a phone call. For example, you might be wishing to view the data of birth of someone while chatting to them.
I don't know anyone in the real world that uses vertical display mode on any of their phones.
Really? That's strange. Almost all phones are used in portrait orientation.

[attila77]

Guys. How about not trying to guesstimate the ergonomy and people's preferred way of usage of a device when nobody (Nokians excl) here has seen the device in real life, much less actually used it ?

[zerojay]

Really? That's strange. Almost all phones are used in portrait orientation.

I'm talking about phones which allow rotation and a keyboard.

[sachin007]

I think it will get bad reviews for the following:

1. Battery life - But i dont mind because i am going to buy an additional battery anyway
2. Lack of portrait orientation support for the OS. I know that all 3rd party apps will support orientation but the os components will not be officially supported. Ofcourse the community will hack it for rotation support but it will not be optimal considering that this is supposed to be a mainstream phone. So nokia has to do something about this.... no more half assed support.. this is not a testing project anymore.

[pelago]

Are the Nokia-supplied apps open source, or will they be? E.g. the photo viewer, calendar, Conversations etc. (i.e. everything listed at http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/)? I know that the community could write their own equivalents to these apps, but it would be nice to be able to hack the source of the Nokia-supplied apps.

Same question for the desktop and app launcher source code - is it or will it be open source?

[konttori]

You can develop in the way you want, but Fremantle, as an OS, does not give you any OS level support for that (apart from signalling the changes). This, in other words, means extra work for developers if they want to implement both orientations.

The extra effort is setting one window property.
[Edit] - as long as you have gtk stuff correctly written so that it can adjust to new size of window.

[mrojas]

Guys. How about not trying to guesstimate the ergonomy and people's preferred way of usage of a device when nobody (Nokians excl) here has seen the device in real life, much less actually used it ?

You assume that common sense is actually common.

[konttori]

keyboard is really good. Much better than n810. The actual kb size is about the same, as there is no dpad. But the keys are really good, which makes a huge difference.

[fms]

Up through Diablo, Maemo devices were (barring hacks) landscape-only Internet Tablets. Fremantle devices appear to be pocket computers with phone capabilities.
Device orientation does not have much to do with being a pocket computer vs. internet tablet (isn't internet tablet a pocket computer as well?) or having phone capabilities.

Harmattan devices may use oFono and have more fully integrated phone, and portrait, capabilities.
oFono is a framework for handling the phone hardware (aka the baseband chip) from Linux. It has nothing to do with landscape or portrait display orientation. Besides, Quim Gil has said in a separate thread that at least the Fremantle will hnot use oFono, although oFono may use some code from Fremantle.

Either way, I find it strange how many people really think that the developers have to maintain separate UIs for vertical and horizontal device orientations. If you implement the UI layout mechanism to adapt to the screen size properly, you generally do not need to have two UIs. If you have to do a separate UI layout for each screen size or orientation, it means that you are doing something wrong.

[fms]

2. Lack of portrait orientation support for the OS. I know that all 3rd party apps will support orientation but the os components will not be officially supported. Ofcourse the community will hack it for rotation support but it will not be optimal considering that this is supposed to be a mainstream phone. So nokia has to do something about this.... no more half assed support.. this is not a testing project anymore.
OS supports the portrait orientation. 3rd party apps may use this support to implement portrait-oriented UIs. What you mean here is that applications included with the devices do not have portrait oriented UIs, except for the phone application.

[ysss]

@fms: I'd agree with you if we're talking about desktop screens where the screen estate is more bountiful.... and it was even less of a problem when the screen ratios were 4:3.

[fms]

@fms: I'd agree with you if we're talking about desktop screens where the screen estate is more bountiful.... and it was even less of a problem when the screen ratios were 4:3.
Dynamic layout code does not change with the changes in screen size or ratio. You are still doing the same thing. If you absolutely feel like you can make things better at some screen ratio, add a detection code for this ratio (i.e. "if(Width/Height>Ratio) {}") and rearrange your widgets a little bit.

The scare of supporting multiple screen sizes and ratios is mainly coming from developers who use static layouts with hard-coded absolute coordinates. Yes, for these guys supporting multiple sizes is a bane.

[attila77]

The extra effort is setting one window property.
[Edit] - as long as you have gtk stuff correctly written so that it can adjust to new size of window.

I kind agree and disagree at the same time. If you're a good dev, you can make your layout handle both, true (but I do think it is extra effort than just thinking about a landscape layout :) ).

The second bit is the usability, and this is where in my speculative developer mind things can get hairy. Portrait mode may require different elements altogether to actually look good or a very conscious rearrangement, presumes no keyboard, etc. All of which can (not necessarily, but easily) translate to extra effort :)

[Khertan]

The scare of supporting multiple screen sizes and ratios is mainly coming from developers

Of course it s a real pain with the existing framework !

[Capt'n Corrupt]

I find that one-handed FB reader portrait is much, much, much more comfortable for extended periods.

Using blue-maemo when controlling my media PC would GREATLY benefit from portrait, one-handed mode, rather than needing both hands to change volume or pause.

Sometimes when I'm stirring something on the stove but need to look up the next step, it's useful to carry out this operation with my free (as in libre, har har) arm. Grab my girlfriends ipod from my pocket and comfortably scroll the page down a bit without missing a beat.

As I understand it, choice is good, and if apple has taught us anything, when things are easy and 'just work', is when we most enjoy using them.

I believe it is a big mistake to leave out portrait as I anticipate it will dampen peoples experience with this wonderful device -- even if they can't put the 'why' into words.

YARR!
}:^)~

[jimizzle]

Edit - @Capt'n Corrupt
Sincere Apologies

See: N900 Orientation Thread

[attila77]

In conclusion, it is sad to see that Nokia has forgotten that they are designing a mobile computer NOT a computer. Thus, it is crucial that they delicately balance their two objectives to avoid total failure.

Computer: Full marks
Mobile: 70%

Funny thing, this portrait mode. Until we had cellular voice, just a few bold hackers cared about system-level screen rotation/flip. Add in a cell radio, and suddenly lack of portrait is a sign of total failure. Funny how these things work. DPAD, full SD, hard cover, move over, there is a new kid in town. Portrait Mode.

[Capt'n Corrupt]

@attila77,

From what I gather from the general chatter in this thread is that lack of portrait is not a sign of total failure, but adding it would enhance the experience of using an N900 for certain tasks; generally one-handed tasks.

}:^[~

[Capt'n Corrupt]

@jimizzle

I appreciate the thanks, but it's generally bad form to post one message in more than one thread. I've read the above post in three separate threads which some refer to this as forum spam.

}:^/~