Portrait mode use cases [Archive] - maemo.org

ysss

09-01-2009, 04:40 AM

My usecases:

- camera mode. It's not so much about the UI orientation, but it's more about where the shutter button should be located when you pull it out from your pocket to take a quick picture. Preferably the shutter can be easily reached and pressed with the thumb.

- music player. I often listen to music with earphones while the phone stays in the pocket. Whenever I need to manage the music player (skip songs, change playlist, etc), I usually just reach in to my pocket, naturally grab the device in portrait mode and take it out to manipulate the player controls with my thumb quickly and slip it back in the pocket when done.

- email. When I hear the chime of incoming mail, I just want to take the phone out my pocket to quickly scan the mail to weight its importance and whether I should take the time to deal with it now or later. It's quicker and more convenient to do this in portrait mode.

PS: I second all of the items in debernadis's list and bakso's as well.

fms

09-01-2009, 04:44 AM

maps (when walking)
media player (audio)
messaging

ragnar

09-01-2009, 04:48 AM

I don't think that nobody would really object to full portrait mode support, if it would be something that would be free to create and deliver.

vkv.raju

09-01-2009, 04:49 AM

Contacts (OSK in portrait mode??)
Games - (Tetris :) for example)

lcuk

09-01-2009, 04:53 AM

girls love to preen themselves
give them a proper mirror :)

Boke

09-01-2009, 05:27 AM

eBook Readers (FBReader)

lma

09-01-2009, 05:40 AM

Do you really need portrait mode for the Camera app?

Would be nice when shooting in portrait orientation, though I haven't seen any other camera that does this.

lcuk

09-01-2009, 05:43 AM

Would be nice when shooting in portrait orientation, though I haven't seen any other camera that does this.

you know guys.
we humans are very dexterous with our movements
we can hold a camera sideways without having to need technology.

even none computerised camera work!

myrjola

09-01-2009, 05:54 AM

Clock (screensaver), digital one, big letters (like in e71)

I think checking time from my mobile is one of the most common uses.

I also agree with the previous comments about needing to check some stuff (map/calendar/notes) while walking (or when one hand is otherwise occupied.

ysss

09-01-2009, 06:13 AM

you know guys.
we humans are very dexterous with our movements
we can hold a camera sideways without having to need technology.

even none computerised camera work!

This comment is applicable to all the other requests in this thread :)
But it doesn't really address the issue.

lma

09-01-2009, 06:27 AM

we can hold a camera sideways without having to need technology.

Yes, but when we do that all the on-screen controls are rotated 90 degrees relative to our interocular axis. Annoying, but not a showstopper and like I said I haven't seen any other digital camera rotate the on-screen display. Doesn't mean there's no room for improvement.

qgil

09-01-2009, 06:56 AM

Disclaimer: all these are my personal opinions with the N900. Maybe other N900 users want to to add their impressions to the mix. Also note than it is possible to handle the device in landscape mode and do some basic operations as well. I mean, landscape doesn't mean automatically two hands.

Browser, what is the strong point for portrait mode? As long as you are ok with 480px width and you don't need to input much text... But I agree is an interesting case and worth submitting a proper proposal at http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm

SMS texting implies a portrait keyboard that we don't have nor is planned as for today in Fremantle. Are you SO in a hurry that you can't stop few secs to text with a convenient qwerty you have paid for? Typing while running is dangerous anyway, no matter in which mode. :)

shopping list --> feature request to whoever develops the app.

calendar (for browsing), it's indeed in landscape mode but it ism possible to browser with one hand (at least for me, I have relatively big hands). Fitting a week of 7 days in a single row in portrait mode is not that simple and probably would require serious work on the UI.

calculator, doesn't look that complicated to do but is it such an important use case? Note that real calculators tend to be used with two hands, even the ones that are small with portrait shape. :) In any case you can always ask this guy (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=18230) to port his clone (or other guys porting other clones).

vvaz

09-01-2009, 07:01 AM

From applications I use on daily basis with my N800:

- book reader (FBreader)
- in fact anything which includes longer texts it is often easier to read in portrait mode including: www browser, PDF reader, (any office docs reader), RSS browser, even terminal sometimes would be handy in that way
- PIM programs which often - at least for me - includes longer lists; easier to grasp things when everything is on one screen (Agendus in portrait mode with hidden Graffiti area rocks!)
- maps: orientate map that your route is along longer axis and you don't have to "refocus" for longer time

thp

09-01-2009, 07:07 AM

Media player should definitely be in portrait mode, like this:

http://khan.thpinfo.com/~thp/images/panucci-portrait-mode.jpg

qgil

09-01-2009, 07:08 AM

i might add, if possible the panoramic desktop and dash board ? so i can choose ,see the application, and switch open programs from portrait mode ?

Portrait mode for the desktop seems rather complicated and I don't see it happening. Automatic relocation of your desktop widgets, shortcuts etc? Rotation of your background pictures? Too much hassle for too little benefit? You can always have your frequently used shortcuts in a position that is equally reachable in both modes.

Portrait Dashboard... might make sense if there are more portrait apps that you use frequently. Perhaps it's not that tricky to implement.

... and since both desktop and dashboard are all open source, you will be able to start hacking on them as soon as we release Maemo 5 final. Looking forward to see your proofs of concept! :)

attila77

09-01-2009, 07:08 AM

- in fact anything which includes longer texts it is often easier to read in portrait mode including: www browser, PDF reader, (any office docs reader), RSS browser, even terminal sometimes would be handy in that way

Might be just me, but... terminal in portrait mode ? Having lines word-wrapped is far worse than having less of them on the screen. Web browsing ? Portrait mode means constant zooming, and it's easier to scroll than to zoom (this is the thing I hated most when using a windows CE machine). For me, at least, these two do not hold too much portrait appeal (I won't MIND having them but I wouldn't use them). But feel free to differ, ergonomy is a very personal thing anyway :)

ColdFusion

09-01-2009, 07:24 AM

Um guys, you can always tilt your hand and read whatever there's in landscape. You don't need two hands for that.

ragnar

09-01-2009, 07:29 AM

Portrait Dashboard... might make sense if there are more portrait apps that you use frequently. Perhaps it's not that tricky to implement.

... and since both desktop and dashboard are all open source, you will be able to start hacking on them as soon as we release Maemo 5 final. Looking forward to see your proofs of concept! :)

The Portrait Dashboard would make sense if the major applications would support portrait mode. But if your app doesn't support portrait mode, then ... either the thumbnail in the Dashboard is wrong (wrong view, wrong orientation) or then the application wouldn't be in portrait mode, so you need to rotate the device anyway once you go there. So it's only about when do you need to do the rotation: sooner or later.

imho the Dashboard would be a complete mess if 50% of the apps would support portrait and 50% wouldn't. Just try to imagine it for a while. :)

biggzy

09-01-2009, 07:33 AM

The only thing id want in portrait mode is the messaging app, yes we could stop walking for 2 mins to reply but what if your other hand is busy? Like walking the dog, holding shopping bags etc etc, in apps like this (apps that require alot of text input) should allow the user to have both modes to use at will, its not a show stopper but we have been using mobile devices with portrait orientation to text for years, why change it now? What if your chating via IM? You dont want to stop walking to use both hands every 30 seconds etc just to reply.

ColdFusion

09-01-2009, 07:38 AM

amoult

09-01-2009, 07:48 AM

There's no onscreen keyboard that you can use to send messages in portrait mode, so you'll have to use the sliding-portrait-mode keyboard anyway.

Then I'll suggest that portrait-mode onscreen keyboard should be made :)

I'll vote portrait mode for:
Music player
messaging (at least reading)
Calendar (at least reading)

ysss

09-01-2009, 07:51 AM

Without a portrait mode on-screen keyboard, more than half of the use cases proposed here can be deleted.

ColdFusion

09-01-2009, 07:53 AM

(at least reading)

What's the problem with tilting your hand sideways and reading it?

johnkzin

09-01-2009, 07:53 AM

These are things I think should be _rotatable_ (usable in both portrait and landscape):

1) The system "list of items" widget should be rotatable, so that you can use it in portrait mode (more items visible = faster browsing through the list, less width = less detail per item) OR landscale mode (more detail per item, but fewer items visible).

This definitely applies to Contacts, Media Player (audio or not; portait - just the list of titles/artists/tracks, landscape - include the cover art), buddy list IM, conversation list in IM/SMS, MAYBE the IM/SMS messages themselves (until you go to compose one), and if there is a list/menu driven version of the application launcher (like the application menus in older versions of Maemo).

2) Media Player for audio controls

3) Rhapsody, if there's still going to be a dedicated Maemo app, should have a portrait mode. Basically, same use case as Media Player.

4) Skype. Same use case as the basic phone functionality of Maemo 5. Same with other VOIP apps. It's ok if video-calls are landscape only, but audio calls should be rotatable between portrait and landscape.

5) Document Viewers. All of them should be able to display in either mode. Those that allow editing, I can see only doing editing in landscape. But viewing should be doable either way. That applies to web pages as well (web browser should be rotatable).

6) task/todo list (I suppose this sort of fits into item #1, but I wanted to call it out). Edit items in landsacpe, view in landscape or portrait.

7) Calendar (event list and day view should be rotatable, but perhaps not week view nor month view, which I can see as being landscape only)

8) simple calculator view (but advanced calculator in landscape; in fact, on the iPhone, rotation is how you select simple vs advanced calculator modes, there's no other widget for it that I'm aware of).

9) added since I posted in the other topic: the screen saver mode should be viewable in either orientation, IMO. Not like desktop "colliding galaxy" screen savers, but like cell phone style screen savers that show you that you have X unread messages, X unread emails, X unread IMs, X% battery left, X missed calls, X voice mails, X bars of signal, which carrier you're on, etc. THAT status screen should be viewable in both portrait and landscape.

.....

in contrast, there are things that I am fine with only having a landscape mode:

a) IM/SMS/Email message composing

b) text editors (memo editor, plain text file editor), and probably editor modes of document viewers. Really, anything that you KNOW is going to be heavily driven by text entry is probably going to be ok to have a landscape only restriction (so, in a way, that covers the previous item too). And, I think with the revelation that they aren't planning to have a portrait mode virtual keyboard, this makes perfect sense.

c) Xterm (I'd hate to have curses based sessions constantly being messed with by rotation, and the canonical terminal dimensions, 80x24, are definitely wider than they are tall) ... with xterm, it's not just that it's text input driven, it's that it's a fixed width text grid. Sure, you can re-size an xterm on a regular display, but you don't generally see people doing that frequently -- they pick their preferred window geometry, and keep it. I've never seen someone re-orient it in the middle of a curses driven application, for example. That would just be ... disorienting, and probably create visual clutter. So, for me: xterm = landscape only.

d) VNC viewer -- some might make the case for it in portrait mode, but I doubt I'd ever use it that way. And I definitely want it to have landscape mode.

e) movie/tv-show/video viewing from a local file (not flash on webpages, as it would probably be too complicated to force some web pages into landscape, while allowing others to be portrait or landscape). Even low-def/non-wide-screen video needs 480 pixels of width... Though, I suppose if it's a specialized video that is narrower than 480 pixels, that'd be fine... but what's the point in catering to that special case?

I think that's it... I think probably most other things are things about which I'd be agnostic. And I can't think of any application that should be "portrait mode only" (not even the phone dialer).

YoDude

09-01-2009, 08:01 AM

ColdFusion

09-01-2009, 08:01 AM

I think that's it... I think probably most other things are things about which I'd be agnostic. And I can't think of any application that should be "portrait mode only" (not even the phone dialer).

It isn't. Look at Eldars screenshots. :)

johnkzin

09-01-2009, 08:05 AM

In today’s litigious society

UGH... design by litigation is even WORSE than design by committee. Lets NOT go down that path, please.

ysss

09-01-2009, 08:06 AM

Has there been any popular (smart)phone in the past that is landscape only?

ColdFusion

09-01-2009, 08:09 AM

In today’s litigious society and in markets where a contributory negligence defense could somehow place fault on the actual device for allowing it's operator to be distracted (<I don’t agree with this, but it happens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense)), I'm not sure it is a good idea for a manufacturer to promote one handed operation of a smart phone.

Only in the US. Don't you love to be living in a society with no personal responsibility. I mean how on earth could it be the fault of the manufacturer that you texted while driving? Is it the fault of the printing industry if you read a newspaper while driving? Seriously!!

YoDude

09-01-2009, 08:14 AM

UGH... design by litigation is even WORSE than design by committee. Lets NOT go down that path, please.

No not designed by litigation... designed with civic responsibility.

Before focusing on statements I made, quoted, or cited to support the premise of my question, can you provide possible answers to the question?

While operating a mobile device with one hand, what is it that you suppose people are doing with the other?

ColdFusion

09-01-2009, 08:21 AM

While operating a mobile device with one hand, what is it that you suppose people are doing with the other?

You could be doing a lot of things that doesn't involve putting yourself or others in danger. How about carrying a bag for example.

designed with civic responsability
There's no such thing. How would a hammer manufacturer design with civic responsibility? If you're stupid or careless enough to hit your thumb while not paying attention, it's your fault.

YoDude

09-01-2009, 08:26 AM

Only in the US. Don't you love to be living in a society with no personal responsibility. I mean how on earth could it be the fault of the manufacturer that you texted while driving? Is it the fault of the printing industry if you read a newspaper while driving? Seriously!!

Ain't that the truth... but I said "promote one handed operation".

Profit and ethics of conviction are not mutually exclusive... However, I sometimes also think that within the past 25 years, "Only in the US" do we think the opposite is true.

ysss

09-01-2009, 08:26 AM

@YoDude:
- Carry bag\plastic bag\etc (general)
- Hold a document\product for comparison with content shown on screen (ie: shopping)
- Hold a torch\flashlight\cane (ie: outdoor navigation)
- Play with your private parts (ie: redtube)

Ain't that the truth... but I said "promote one handed operation".

Profit and ethics of conviction are not mutually exclusive... However, I sometimes also think that within the past 25 years, "Only in the US" do we think the opposite is true.

So all the previous phones before the n900 'promotes' one handed operation because they work in portrait?

attila77

09-01-2009, 08:31 AM

Has there been any popular (smart)phone in the past that is landscape only?

Most Nokia communicators ? You could argue it had a 'hardware portrait mode', but that of misses the point...

johnkzin

09-01-2009, 08:35 AM

No not designed by litigation... designed with civic responsibility.

Whose version of civic responsibility?

I mean, looking into another arena, one in which manufacturers have already been sued...

Which version of "civic responsibility" do you design for, with guns? The version of 'civic responsibility" which says "all adult citizens will carry" (true in some municipalities in the US), the version that says "all households will have one" (also true in some municipalities), or the version that says "guns shouldn't exist at all". All 3 are valid versions of "civic responsibility", and yet are very different design cases.

This isn't an invitation to a gun debate, this is an illustration that "civic responsibility" is both "in the eye of the beholder" and "an easy avenue for elitist attempts to impose a point of view upon a populace".

If I was the head of a user interface design team, and someone said "we need to show civic responsibility, to avoid being sued, by making sure people can't text one handed on our devices", I would fire them from the team, on the spot, in front of the team.

YoDude

09-01-2009, 08:44 AM

...There's no such thing. How would a hammer manufacturer design with civic responsibility? If you're stupid or careless enough to hit your thumb while not paying attention, it's your fault.

You're right. However, if the manufacturer promoted the fact that their hammer is also a good way to open walnuts and it is this activity that leads to injured thumbs...well; wouldn't you agree it is in the manufactures best interest to drop promoting their hammer as a nut cracker?

Look, I'm not saying portrait mode is not useful. I use it with my N8**'s all the time (ironically cruising iPhone optimized sites). I'm just saying that I don't fault Nokia for not providing this function. Particularly when they provide a device and promote a software that can be more easily changed than others (imho) to suit the users needs. The fact that portrait mode would require a little effort on the users part or need a third parties involvement may, in the future prove prudent. :)

ysss

09-01-2009, 08:46 AM

Most Nokia communicators ? You could argue it had a 'hardware portrait mode', but that of misses the point...

Yes, those are good examples. How does that miss the point though? I think it's exactly designed to address the 1 handed usecases discussed here :)

I know the hardware portrait mode on communicators lets you use voice, sms & mms function, but I wonder if you can do other stuffs through it also?

johnkzin

09-01-2009, 08:48 AM

However, if the manufacturer promoted the fact that their hammer is also a good way to open walnuts and it is this activity that leads to injured thumbs...well; wouldn't you agree it is in the manufactures best interest to drop promoting their hammer as a nut cracker?

No.

At most, the product should come with a warning that says "Some uses of this product increase the risk of thumb injury. The user should be aware of safety risks, and take proper precautions when using the device."

qgil

09-01-2009, 09:04 AM

There's no onscreen keyboard that you can use to send messages in portrait mode, so you'll have to use the sliding-landscape-mode keyboard anyway.

Again, the Hildon Input Method framework is open source so if you *really* want one maybe someone can give it a try.

YoDude

09-01-2009, 09:06 AM

...Which version of "civic responsibility" do you design for, with guns? The version of 'civic responsibility" which says "all adult citizens will carry" (true in some municipalities in the US), the version that says "all households will have one" (also true in some municipalities), or the version that says "guns shouldn't exist at all". All 3 are valid versions of "civic responsibility", and yet are very different design cases.

This isn't an invitation to a gun debate, this is an illustration that "civic responsibility" is both "in the eye of the beholder" and "an easy avenue for elitist attempts to impose a point of view upon a populace"...

Wow! way off track with great leaps and bounds :D

You can modify NIT's in the past to provide portrait mode and until we see the N900, I'm not going to assume you can't with that as well.

Just like you can saw off the barrel of your shotgun to make it easier to bring into church on Sundays... or with the help of an internet provided tutorial, modify your assault rifle to full "rock & roll" in order to keep the neighborhood kids off your lawn. :p

pelago

09-01-2009, 09:11 AM

since both desktop and dashboard are all open source, you will be able to start hacking on them as soon as we release Maemo 5 final.
Ooh, thanks for that qgil. I wasn't aware that those items will be open source. Which other of the Nokia-supplied apps will be open-source, if interested people wanted to hack portrait mode into them - is there a list somewhere?

By the way, I think the litigation stuff should be moved to Off Topic. There are plenty of reasons for wanting one-handed portrait mode other than while driving.

ColdFusion

09-01-2009, 09:19 AM

You're right. However, if the manufacturer promoted the fact that their hammer is also a good way to open walnuts and it is this activity that leads to injured thumbs...well; wouldn't you agree it is in the manufactures best interest to drop promoting their hammer as a nut cracker?

I don't see Nokia "promoting" using heavy machinery and driving while texting in landscape or portrait mode.

At most, the product should come with a warning that says "Some uses of this product increase the risk of thumb injury. The user should be aware of safety risks, and take proper precautions when using the device."
Even that is just common sense.

Profit and ethics of conviction are not mutually exclusive... However, I sometimes also think that within the past 25 years, "Only in the US" do we think the opposite is true.
There aren't any ethics involved here. It's just the "let's put warning labels for everything so that they can't sue us" because the legal system obviously doesn't take personal responsibility into account.

qgil

09-01-2009, 09:24 AM

The call related UI is common to VoIP and cellular calls and is available both in portrait and landscape mode, based on the orientation of the device.

qgil

09-01-2009, 09:35 AM

Camera: if you are really in a hurry open the lens and press the shot button in the orientation you prefer. This is no different than any camera you had in the past.

I'm personally more than skeptical about any app that is in only one mode (e.g. landscape) but just a few features are available in the other mode as well. There might be few well reasoned and intuitive exceptions, but for the most part... Users will be confused or plainly disappointed by trying to offer them "more" and even those skilled to use those apps in the right way might end up building good triceps with all this rotation. :)

mrojas

09-01-2009, 09:42 AM

Again, the Hildon Input Method framework is open source so if you *really* want one maybe someone can give it a try.

I assume that the hacking tricks done for portrait mode won't get undone with a subsequent software update like the N8x0?

sachin007

09-01-2009, 09:52 AM

I hope the community hacks the rotation support as soon as possible like they did for the previous tablets. I dont care if the widgets are not well arranged in the potrait mode......but what i do care is that potrait mode is as important as the landscape mode.
Just because nokia says landscape mode is the ideal mode it doesnt mean that they are right and the device can be only used in the landscape mode.

Bottom line... Nokia had 2.5 years to support potrait mode in the default applications. For whatever reason it failed to do it. I truly understand that they worked on the rest of the OS and made it very nice, but i expected the n900 to be perfect.... it is not anymore.

There is really no exception for nokia for not including the following:

1. MMS
2. DUN/PAN
3. Portrait mode
4. Portrait mode keyboard
5. Fm receiver application

After knowing all these deficiencies the n900 has fallen down from super phone to just another phone, because these are pretty basic functions. I always ridiculed my iphone friends that they never had MMS, tethering etc.... now i guess it is my chance.

livefreeordie

09-01-2009, 09:54 AM

Again, the Hildon Input Method framework is open source so if you *really* want one maybe someone can give it a try.

It's not that easy. Isn't T9 patented? I assume that's what most people would want from portrait mode text input.

Anyway, what are the chances of you actually shipping any of these ideas?

ysss

09-01-2009, 09:59 AM

@qgil:
re: camera
(as I mentioned in my post about camera) I'm not that concerned about the UI orientation of the camera app, I just want to make sure that the shutter button position can be easily and securely reached with a one handed grip.

Most smartphone with a dedicated shutter button positions it where a shutter button would be located on a conventional camera (top right side when the device is in landscape position) and this isn't the optimal position when you're holding it one handed in portrait mode. Anyway, as long as there's a soft button on screen with active area near the right side of the screen in camera mode, then it should be fine ;)

@sachin: your chance? you mean your turn to get *** ****d? :D

heavyt

09-01-2009, 10:05 AM

While operating a mobile device with one hand, what is it that you suppose people are doing with the other? I mean, do you think that in at least a few cases their other hand is involved in a primary task that should have their attention?

In today’s litigious society and in markets where a contributory negligence defense could somehow place fault on the actual device for allowing it's operator to be distracted (<I don’t agree with this, but it happens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense)), I'm not sure it is a good idea for a manufacturer to promote one handed operation of a smart phone.

It is bad enough with just SMS >> EXAMPLES << (http://www.google.com/search?q=Accident+while+texting&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIC_en-US)imagine if people were booking hotel rooms, looking up lyrics to songs they just heard, or Googling recipes in order to decide if they need to stop at the market for ingredients on the way home while, all while they hurtle down the road @ 60 miles per hour while supposedly operating a 1, 1/2 ton vehicle.

It will be a while before lawsuits start hitting the news from the many injured or killed when a Los Angelos commuter rail train crashed with a freight rail and 25 people died. Just recently there was a Washington DC subway accident that killed 9. In both cases a possible cause stated was "operator distracted while text messaging". Although the investigations are not complete or may be found inconclusive, perhaps enough attention has been given to texting as a possible cause (http://www.google.com/search?q=texting+as+a+possible+cause&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIC_en-US) that a device manufacturer and/or a service provider could be named in a few of those civil actions.

Just a thought. :)

The driver of the Washington DC train was not at fault, as a matter of fact she is a hero. Please get your facts correct when making such damaging statements, thank you.

wtop.com

WASHINGTON - Three days after the crash on Metro's Red Line, investigators are trying to determine how much operator-error factored into the tragic accident.

There has been some speculation about whether the operator, Jeanice McMillan, was using her cell phone when the train collided with a stopped train during the afternoon rush hour, killing herself and eight others.

Metro General Manager John Catoe tells WTOP the cell phone was not an issue.

"We know where her cell phone was -- it was not on her. It was in a backpack."

He says all signs are showing that the operator did everything she could to prevent the crash.

"The train itself was trying to stop for several hundred feet," Catoe says. "There's not one letter of evidence that our operator did anything to cause the accident."...

nilchak

09-01-2009, 10:37 AM

I am very comfortable with the landscape mode except in certain selected cases where portrait mode fits the use case scenario better.

And I agree - with the camera, its a moot point, just turn the damned phone into portrait mode (just like with any dedicated camera). Yes a soft key button does help though.

My only portrait uses are as below

a) Browser - while landscape is better in general usage - but for GOOGLE READER, I always turn it to portrait mode - since you can see more headlines in one page and thus less scrolling. (mind you for a news reader, its the headlines you scan before you select articles to read - you dont read all articles usually).

b) In Browser to see my stock application (web based) I turn to portrait to fit more of my portfolio in one screen rather than in landscape mode.

c) Contacts - prefer to see in portrait mode again so that you can see more of the list to scan.
(Quick question - so i phone app in portrait mode, will the contacts list to select who to call also show in portrait mode ?)

Khertan

09-01-2009, 11:02 AM

Landscape can be use one handed ... if i can do it with a n810 and some beers ... everyone can do it :

the evidence : http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2891773166_e4465623e8.jpg

ysss

09-01-2009, 11:04 AM

Landscape can be use one handed ... if i can do it with a n810 and some beers ... everyone can do it :

the evidence : http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2891773166_e4465623e8.jpg

@khertan: do you know why that works? d-pad.
And it's obvious that you can't move your thumb anywhere else from that d-pad position.

qgil

09-01-2009, 11:20 AM

(Quick question - so i phone app in portrait mode, will the contacts list to select who to call also show in portrait mode ?)

Quick answer: yes.

Khertan

09-01-2009, 11:28 AM

And it's obvious that you can't move your thumb anywhere else

We bet ?

Really ?

qgil

09-01-2009, 11:29 AM

@qgil:
re: camera
(as I mentioned in my post about camera) I'm not that concerned about the UI orientation of the camera app, I just want to make sure that the shutter button position can be easily and securely reached with a one handed grip.

Take the device with your right hand, clipped with the thumb on the screen, the middle in the back and the index on the shooter. Turn the device to the left so your hand is on top. Shoot!

What's the problem with that and what makes you think that a button on the screen will make your life easier?

qgil

09-01-2009, 11:37 AM

I assume that the hacking tricks done for portrait mode won't get undone with a subsequent software update like the N8x0?

Hildon, basically a GTK+ extension, stays stable through the Fremantle maintenance releases. Harmattan will come with a framework based on Qt, as announced.

If there is a community project willing to bring Hildon further to Harmattan times, that is another story.

And before you ask :) Harmattan will support portrait mode in the way that makes more sense based on our UI vision and the feedback received from Maemo 5 users, our usability studies etc.

heavyt

09-01-2009, 11:37 AM

Landscape can be use one handed ... if i can do it with a n810 and some beers ... everyone can do it :

the evidence : http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3155/2891773166_e4465623e8.jpg

Is that a dunkel bier, man that making me thirsty. :D

ysss

09-01-2009, 11:39 AM

We bet ?

Really ?

Unless you have hidden joints somewhere, you'd have to tip the device's balance to your palm and let go of your thumb to reposition. It's not impossible, that's why I always mention 'secure and comfortable grip' condition in my previous posts.

Take the device with your right hand, clipped with the thumb on the screen, the middle in the back and the index on the shooter. Turn the device to the left so your hand is on top. Shoot!

What's the problem with that and what makes you think that a button on the screen will make your life easier?

Ok, I guess I will have to wait til I get the actual device to play with it :) Like I said previously, if this device passed Nokia's usability experts then it should be good enough for the population. It's just that there's been very few landscape-oriented phones in the past.

qgil

09-01-2009, 11:57 AM

Media Player, for audio you have consistent reasonings and you are encouraged to post your ideas to the Brainstorm. Video is a secondary case since most users will want to see them taking as much display resolution as possible (usually landscape).

Someone has mentioned controls of the media application through hardware keys and what consequences this have for portrait mode (see also http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/hardware-keys_should_control_media-player-even_when_locked/ ). You can control the volume with +/- keys even with the display locked. For more complex operations, the system actually assumes that you have headphones with such keys integrated and much more reachable than a device in your pocket.

YoDude

09-01-2009, 12:58 PM

...The driver of the Washington DC train was not at fault, as a matter of fact she is a hero. Please get your facts correct when making such damaging statements, thank you...

First off, I didn't report anything as a "fact" and the only statement I made was... "I'm not sure it is a good idea for a manufacturer to promote one handed operation of a smart phone."

I gave an opinion about future, popular perceptions based upon what is currently being reported in the news. I gave links to simple Google searches that I made to support my opinion.
As is often the case with some, if an opinion is contrary to theirs, they will find a way to change the conversation to one that they have prepared talking points for.

My opinion was not based on any belief in a Utopia or even a new world order. In fact I actually stated that.. "I don’t agree with this, but it happens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense)".

I posted that In both cases a possible cause stated was "operator distracted while text messaging". Although the investigations are not complete or may be found inconclusive, perhaps enough attention has been given to texting as a possible cause (http://www.google.com/search?q=texting+as+a+possible+cause&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIC_en-US)...

No where did I even say that I believed this was Nokia's intent. In a subsequent post I said "The fact that portrait mode would require a little effort on the users part or need a third parties involvement may, in the future prove prudent"

...again an opinion different than yours.

Lets recap shall we? :)

How do my above, highlighted (in bold) words add up to a statement of fact?

(A rhetorical question. Please don't answer. I concede, you win. I get the message.) :eek:

Edit: Corrected user name... sorry ysss

mrojas

09-01-2009, 12:59 PM

Hildon, basically a GTK+ extension, stays stable through the Fremantle maintenance releases. Harmattan will come with a framework based on Qt, as announced.

If there is a community project willing to bring Hildon further to Harmattan times, that is another story.

And before you ask :) Harmattan will support portrait mode in the way that makes more sense based on our UI vision and the feedback received from Maemo 5 users, our usability studies etc.

Thanks for the answer!

Playing around a bit with a friend's N97, I found why I am personally so worried about one handed use in portrait mode: because holding the device that way allows me to have it safely nested in my hand, and operate it only with my thumb.

I guess that a form factor a la Palm Pre is not in the works? *dreams*

ysss

09-01-2009, 01:11 PM

First off, I didn't report anything as a "fact" and the only statement I made was...

How did my username get into that quote??

heavyt

09-01-2009, 02:08 PM

First off, I didn't report anything as a "fact" and the only statement I made was... "I'm not sure it is a good idea for a manufacturer to promote one handed operation of a smart phone."

I gave an opinion about future, popular perceptions based upon what is currently being reported in the news. I gave links to simple Google searches that I made to support my opinion.
As is often the case with some, if an opinion is contrary to theirs, they will find a way to change the conversation to one that they have prepared talking points for.

My opinion was not based on any belief in a Utopia or even a new world order. In fact I actually stated that.. "I don’t agree with this, but it happens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense)".

I posted that

No where did I even say that I believed this was Nokia's intent. In a subsequent post I said "The fact that portrait mode would require a little effort on the users part or need a third parties involvement may, in the future prove prudent"

...again an opinion different than yours.

Lets recap shall we? :)

How do my above, highlighted (in bold) words add up to a statement of fact?

(A rhetorical question. Please don't answer. I concede, you win. I get the message.) :eek:
YoDude I never posted an opinion on the portrait mode subject nor do I care about it.

What you posted ¨...recently there was a Washington DC subway accident that killed 9. In both cases a possible cause stated was "operator distracted while text messaging.." is incorrect. Metro (who is part of the official investigation team) never release such a statement. Yes it was stated by whomever but it was not true. For anyone to quote/print statements that has no facts to support it I feel is acting reckless.

That driver died trying to stop that train. That is a fact. YoDude there is no more I have to say on this.

Sorry people for hijacking this tread.

YoDude

09-01-2009, 02:08 PM

How did my username get into that quote??

1000 apologies ysss, I was trying to multitask before leaving the desktop to run an errand earlier... I was pro'ly quoting you in another window and mixed them up somehow.

nilchak

09-01-2009, 02:31 PM

And before you ask :) Harmattan will support portrait mode in the way that makes more sense based on our UI vision and the feedback received from Maemo 5 users, our usability studies etc.

Thanks for that info Quim. Great ! Full system wide landscape support - where everything works correctly (and not half-baked) would be damned good.

And I presume this is because QT has very good UI auto-adjustments using its layout widgets.

lma

09-01-2009, 02:38 PM

For more complex operations, the system actually assumes that you have headphones with such keys integrated and much more reachable than a device in your pocket.

Ah, so multi-button headsets are finally supported :-)

vvaz

09-01-2009, 02:43 PM

Might be just me, but... terminal in portrait mode ?
[cut]
Web browsing ?

I usually process list, read lists, create lists. Even in terminal, so portrait mode would be useful for me. For web browsing - there *are* people who create proper web sites which are readable in 480px + with "div oriented zooming" it should be easy to zoom on longer article on, say, news.bbc and leave navigation on the sides concentrating on real content.

YoDude

09-01-2009, 02:46 PM

YoDude I never posted an opinion on the portrait mode subject nor do I care about it.

What you posted ¨...recently there was a Washington DC subway accident that killed 9. In both cases a possible cause stated was "operator distracted while text messaging.." is incorrect. Metro (who is part of the official investigation team) never release such a statement. Yes it was stated by whomever but it was not true. For anyone to quote/print statements that has no facts to support it I feel is acting reckless.

That driver died trying to stop that train. That is a fact. YoDude there is no more I have to say on this.

Sorry people for hijacking this tread.

heavyt is correct.

I did not read the individual Google results until this was pointed out. The searches were made to support my memory that there were multiple incidents with one occurring recently. The DC incident that I referred to was not text related.

The more recent of the two text related train incidents that I was searching for actually occurred in Boston (http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/05/ems_49_taken_to.html). My apologies to heavyt and anyone who may have been offended by that post.

ColdFusion

09-01-2009, 02:57 PM

So now you just have to show where Nokia promotes texting in landscape or portrait mode while driving a train.

daperl

09-01-2009, 03:00 PM

Ok, I guess I will have to wait til I get the actual device to play with it :) Like I said previously, if this device passed Nokia's usability experts then it should be good enough for the population. It's just that there's been very few landscape-oriented phones in the past.

********, you were right the first time. Anyone that doesn't get the one-handed ease-of-use of a camera phone in portrait mode is delusional.

sjgadsby

09-01-2009, 03:03 PM

So now you just have to show where Nokia promotes texting in landscape or portrait mode while driving a train.

Oh, I'll be keeping a close eye on Javier (http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/openttd/0.7.2-1maemo1/) now, I assure you. If he even thinks of adding portrait support, let me tell you...

allnameswereout

09-01-2009, 03:05 PM

While operating a mobile device with one hand, what is it that you suppose people are doing with the other? I mean, do you think that in at least a few cases their other hand is involved in a primary task that should have their attention?Well, when I go do grocery shopping I sometimes have a paper in one hand. If I had a device to flag (or scan) the items I'd prefer to do that with one hand instead of two. I'd also want as little user interaction as possible, and make sure the item is also processed in my 'inventory', as well as the date it goes bad somehow tagged and read (yeah, dream on, maybe some RFID reader in future). The same would be true when I'd walk with my grocery bag to my car and someone phones me. The fact I can simply walk around and quickly navigate with my Nokia E71 and its little keyboard and dpad provides an advantage in certain situations; purely because of its design. However, there is not one perfect product suitable for everything.

You can also imagine that the application simply behaves different (in some ways more lightweight but maybe also allowing something good different because of change) and that this is optimized for the use cases.

allnameswereout

09-01-2009, 03:06 PM

********, you were right the first time. Anyone that doesn't get the one-handed ease-of-use of a camera phone in portrait mode is delusional.Hnn, no matter what mode, I kinda like to hold a camera in 2 two hands for aided stability resulting to better quality.

YoDude

09-01-2009, 03:08 PM

So now you just have to show where Nokia promotes texting in landscape or portrait mode while driving a train.

Simple, check out the stickers they'll be putting on the phone. Not one of them specifically warns against it... :p

sjgadsby

09-01-2009, 03:11 PM

Simple, check out the stickers they'll be putting on the phone.

And people thought the "disconnect your charger" message was too much. That was only the beginning.

For external use only. Not to be used as a flotation device.

ColdFusion

09-01-2009, 03:16 PM

It does contribute to global warming, because of all the trees that have been cut to produce those warning labels ;)

pelago

09-01-2009, 03:54 PM

Take the device with your right hand, clipped with the thumb on the screen, the middle in the back and the index on the shooter. Turn the device to the left so your hand is on top. Shoot!
Thanks for that. That looks like it'll work. The only issue with that is that this is (as far as I know) rotating the the device in the opposite direction to normal portrait mode. Not a big issue if the device is clever enough to detect that.

qgil

09-01-2009, 03:54 PM

Portrait mode in xterm, go convince https://garage.maemo.org/projects/osso-xterm/ (probably better with patches). fyi this is a project without UI designers or product managers (that I'm aware for). Be prepared. :)

Portrait mode for your shopping list, none of our business but you might want to talk to the PyRecipe (http://maemo.org/packages/view/pyrecipe/) developer.

qgil

09-01-2009, 04:00 PM

Thanks for that. That looks like it'll work. The only issue with that is that this is (as far as I know) rotating the the device in the opposite direction to normal portrait mode. Not a big issue if the device is clever enough to detect that.

At least in the terrestrial atmosphere the system saves the pictures with the ground down and the sky up, both for landscape and portrait. Except you trick the accelerometers waving your hand, running, etc which usually results in funny pictures anyway.

pelago

09-01-2009, 04:18 PM

Portrait mode for your shopping list, none of our business but you might want to talk to the PyRecipe (http://maemo.org/packages/view/pyrecipe/) developer.I don't know about other people, but when I think about a shopping list, I don't necessarily think about this requiring a specialist third-party app. My shopping list may just be a text file that I use Notes to open, and it might not be so much a traditional shopping list as a list of presents ideas to look out for, or an email from a friend, or a price comparison website, or a free-text field added to a contact or To-Do or Calendar item (if this is possible) etc. For ease of flexibility, I would rather not have to copy and paste this text into a rotateable app.

So the point I'm trying to make is that one use case, at least for me, is "ability to look at (and manipulate, e.g. scroll) Notes, Email, Browser, Contacts, To-Dos, Calendar applications easily while held in one hand, for example while shopping" rather than the more specific "Have a third-party shopping list app that works in portrait mode".

allnameswereout

09-01-2009, 05:24 PM

I don't know about other people, but when I think about a shopping list, I don't necessarily think about this requiring a specialist third-party app. My shopping list may just be a text file that I use Notes to open, and it might not be so much a traditional shopping list as a list of presents ideas to look out for, or an email from a friend, or a price comparison website, or a free-text field added to a contact or To-Do or Calendar item (if this is possible) etc. For ease of flexibility, I would rather not have to copy and paste this text into a rotateable app.Yes, that is simply a todo list. More specific you'd want to have it integrated in stuff like recipe manager, and special deals on sale import ability, and you'd flag something when you grabbed it.

On iPhone (and iPod touch) I can buy an application for 1 EUR which will grab the latest stuff on sale from all Dutch supermarkets (parsing the data online). Ofcourse, I filter out the stores not near me. And then I can easily flag what I want to buy where.

handful

09-01-2009, 05:36 PM

Well :)

I know this may sound a little harsh but ... that's specifically why my talk at last summit was "We are not the users".

If Maemo4 devices, only tablets, attracted a fair amount of non-technical, already non-power users, now Maemo5 with phone features will attract massive amounts of users ( And I truly believe that, as well I believe that's Nokia's main target right).

So, While it's ok to share and gather data from the community, specially such a high standards one like Maemo, it's really risky to justify / lock features based on that.

For those who have used fully virtual keyboards (with fingers) and are fine with that (Millions of users) Specially because of the opposite pointed here (It uses screen space, but saves physical dimensions) It's simply one of the most annoying things to have to rotate the Device to perform a type.

Android phone 01 was an example of that. No surprise how much people cried over the virtual keyboard. It was really plain boring to be using the home screen, clicking on the Google search widget and nothing happened... you need to slide up, go from 1 hand to 2 hands and then type.

While most of guys here will think this is a small detail, dumb perception or whatever, This really gets annoying with the use, and special data will always have it's "optimus" orientation:

Browsing through list of contents (Contacts, Music, etc) will always be more effective in portrait, While (like Quim Gil pointed out) Browsing will be more effective on landscape. What is clear is that Nokia made a design decision : Landscape. Specially because of the input. To Hack now portrait mode, will immediately call for the portrait virtual keyboard, so this decision not only saves time, but also simplify a lot of stuff (who used Android, nows about dialogs being crippled when not designed for both resolutions, widgets running wild)

Well we can go all night, so I will resume :

don't simply justify by using

"What's the problem of turning the phone to type"

Because this is and will be proven by the real END users out there, REALLY annoying.

Once the device is out, this will be one (if not THE) loudest cries ever. Be prepared.

my 2 (or 200?) cents :)

*hoping to replace this N97 for the N900 soon, and get pissed of with the need to rotate and use to hands to type :) But as a linux device would ask for it... I will probably get a friend here in the office to do a virtual keyboard on portrait, to increase my love for my future favorite device :)

magog

09-01-2009, 06:20 PM

For more complex operations, the system actually assumes that you have headphones with such keys integrated and much more reachable than a device in your pocket.

Where would I get headphones like that? Ideally I'd like something I could plug my own headphones into ...

mrojas

09-01-2009, 08:09 PM

Amen to Marcelo Eduardo. I don't look forward to the N900 because I simply won't go turn the phone to type. I don't have to do it on a N97 (at least I can use the on-screen T9), which has a far inferior UI design, and yeah, one of the most annoying things in the N97 is to have to turn an open the keyboard for efficient typing.

So I guess I will wait until either the virtual keyboard and turning for all apps gets done, or just get a Palm Pre.

handful

09-01-2009, 10:27 PM

One good thing that people should not forget that came with Maemo is: more software updates :) So... the device will be a success and the need will make the portrait v keyboard appear on one of those, sooner or later :)

At least we know Maemo is a new way :) if it was symbian, then we would have a more complicated future :)

OVK

09-02-2009, 01:18 AM

Where would I get headphones like that? Ideally I'd like something I could plug my own headphones into ...

Is this something that might satisfy your needs?

http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/all-accessories/headsets/bluetooth-headsets/nokia-bluetooth-stereo-headset-bh-214

qgil

09-02-2009, 01:45 AM

Where would I get headphones like that? Ideally I'd like something I could plug my own headphones into ...

They are not difficult to find and actually Nokia has several models, BT and wired. If your headphones have a 3.5 mm jack they should just work.

Anyway, if anybody wants to brainstorm the idea of having media player actions related to the hardware buttons please propose, comments and vote at http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/hardware-keys_should_control_media-player-even_when_locked/

messus

09-02-2009, 03:47 AM

Basically I would like to have ALL applications available in portrait mode as well.

I really like this phone, and I was considering the iphone also, but would prefer to also be able to use the Nokia N900 i portrait mode.

Not being able to use the phone in Portrait Mode is a BUMMER if you ask me, and a "make og break" regarding choosing the phone or not..

I know it's intention is to be an internet tablet phone etc. etc., but being able to use the phone handheld in Portrait Mode does not stop the unit from still being a Internet Landscape Tablet unit.

My buy order for me and my company for this unit is put on a serious hold until I se that proper Portrait Mode also is embedded.

dissapointed

ysss

09-02-2009, 04:34 AM

@messus: could you share the specific reasons\use cases that you need the portrait orientation for?

ColdFusion

09-02-2009, 04:41 AM

I don't want portrait mode for EVERYTHING like people here are saying. Just on the apps that make sense to be used in portrait mode. No need to cripple the UI.
The browser maybe needs to get portrait mode.

ysss

09-02-2009, 04:44 AM

I wouldn't mind having portrait on EVERYTHING so I don't have to reorient the device as I -multitask- (y'know, running a few programs at the same time and moving between them).

There's gotta be some UI consistency mantra on this issue.

ColdFusion

09-02-2009, 04:49 AM

That's why the phone app has a landscape mode. For UI consistency.

ysss

09-02-2009, 04:56 AM

@CF: Advance to post #1 of this thread :) Do not collect $200.

messus

09-02-2009, 05:14 AM

@messus: could you share the specific reasons\use cases that you need the portrait orientation for?

As I said; basically for everything.

Just the fact that I am forced to go into landscape mode to answer/write messages is just ridicilous!

I fell in love with the design of this phone when I saw it 2 days ago, so much that even if the unit is lagging waaay behind both symbian/windows mobile/iphone with regards to 3'rd party SW applications available, I would be willing to accept this and see.

The N900 is powerful, has nice design etc.etc..
But I can promise you, if no Portrait Mode, no N900 for me and my IT company, for sure! Then it will be the iphone!

ragnar

09-02-2009, 05:21 AM

I don't want portrait mode for EVERYTHING like people here are saying.

Ok, just to hypothesize: so how many months later would you have accepted to announce and get the N900, if we would have gone for this direction? 3? 6? 9? 12? 18?

ColdFusion

09-02-2009, 05:44 AM

Ok, just to hypothesize: so how many months later would you have accepted to announce and get the N900, if we would have gone for this direction? 3? 6? 9? 12? 18?

You have already gone in that direction. Like I said, I don't want portrait mode for EVERYTHING like people here are saying.
Maybe only in browser it'd have been in handy.:)

attila77

09-02-2009, 06:06 AM

Ok, just to hypothesize: so how many months later would you have accepted to announce and get the N900, if we would have gone for this direction? 3? 6? 9? 12? 18?

And how many more months after that, until most 3rd party apps gain an additional portrait mode to provide a consistent experience ?

qgil

09-02-2009, 07:44 AM

ragnar

09-02-2009, 07:51 AM

Yes, the issue with the portrait keyboard is coming up with something that fits 10+ characters on the same row, while still being usable.

You can in theory do a design where you zoom the key after each press, then let go when you're on top of the right key. But solutions like that (for instance in the iPhone) use an additional predictive engine to "smooth out" / guess what character the user was actually pressing. Without the predictive component the experience simply wouldn't very good.

Of course you can say that you just need to type so that you carefully select every letter there, but then the typing experience wouldn't be very satisfactory. The bar of just turning the device to landscape and typing with the nice HW keyboard gets very low - and if so, the bother of making that keyboard in the first place might get lost.

(Qgil has the additional point about one hand use: if portrait keyboard requires two hands, you might just as well use these two hands to turn into landscape.)

qgil

09-02-2009, 08:23 AM

I don't look forward to the N900 because I simply won't go turn the phone to type. I don't have to do it on a N97 (at least I can use the on-screen T9)

So you prefer to stick in portrait and type a text on a T9 rather than turn the device and type the thing on the comfortable keyboard? Seriously? :)

ysss

09-02-2009, 08:31 AM

@qgil: I think if you read the use cases in this thread carefully, most of them talks about certain constraint that limits yourself to a one handed use. Either lack of time or lack of additional biologic appendage to deal with extraneous objects around us. Yes, you can blame or argue the person that they shouldn't be doing that in the first place for whatever reason (Ethic, efficiency, etc) but then again people have been doing that already with 99% other phones (and smartphones) that this is what they expect out of N900.

I personally think the N900 has to be heavily marketed as a miniature computer (or anything than a smartphone competitor) to take it away from any comparisons against other (Smart)phones and so that people have different expectation of what kind of interaction experience they will have with this (no one handedness, for one).

ARJWright

09-02-2009, 08:43 AM

Has there been any popular (smart)phone in the past that is landscape only?

The Danger Sidekick, sold by TMobile US (see a common thread?)

messus

09-02-2009, 08:44 AM

So you prefer to stick in portrait and type a text on a T9 rather than turn the device and type the thing on the comfortable keyboard? Seriously? :)

People want to be able to choose!! Not to be limited!!

Simple as that!

Such an expensive device, lacking way behind with regards to software, should support both landscape and portrait mode, to justify the price..

And yes, in most cases I would choose portrait mode, and not have to use both my hands just to answar an sms..

qgil

09-02-2009, 08:46 AM

I personally think the N900 has to be heavily marketed as a miniature computer (or anything than a smartphone competitor) to take it away from any comparisons against other (Smart)phones and so that people have different expectation of what kind of interaction experience they will have with this (no one handedness, for one).

And this is what Nokia is doing. Maemo is for mobile computers. If you want a Nokia smartphone you have a wide choice of models with Symbian inside. Check all our communications and you won't find the N900 defined as a smartphone, or Maemo defined as a smartphone OS.

ragnar

09-02-2009, 08:46 AM

Just like in the iPhone, where portrait and landscape mode is fully supp...

Oops.

ColdFusion

09-02-2009, 08:56 AM

Yes, the issue with the portrait keyboard is coming up with something that fits 10+ characters on the same row, while still being usable.

How about something like this:
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3425/29yoxtu.gif

attila77

09-02-2009, 08:58 AM

Guys. This is such a non-issue. If this 'OMG I'll have to flip to landscape to type an SMS' is the N900's biggest ergonomy problem, I'm very very happy.

ysss

09-02-2009, 09:02 AM

Just like in the iPhone, where portrait and landscape mode is fully supp...

Oops.

http://www.apple.com/iphone/iphone-3gs/keyboard.html

Well, the iPhone supports 100% apps in portrait mode.

As of OS 3.0 all of the build in apps can function in both portrait and landscape (yes, including the calculator which becomes a full featured scientific calculator in landscape) and a good majority of popular productivity apps (Evernotes, Pocket Informant, Toodledo Notebook, etc) have support of both landscape and portrait mode.

ragnar

09-02-2009, 09:09 AM

And we support 100% apps in landscape mode.

Some of our applications support portrait mode. 3rd party applications can support both modes, fairly effortlessly (looking at the Conboy example).

ragnar

09-02-2009, 09:13 AM

How about something like this:
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3425/29yoxtu.gif

Yes, T9 would work. It's not very fast, though.

zerojay

09-02-2009, 09:14 AM

Yes, T9 would work. It's not very fast, though.

That's *SO* much more effort to use than simply rotating the thing and using the keyboard. Wow... this is amazing.

ysss

09-02-2009, 09:25 AM

@ragnar: yes, and that would be fine if you can operate the n900 securely and comfortably with one hand, to fit some of the use cases mentioned before.

Anyway, the discussion seems to have gone around a few times already :) I'm out...

qgil

09-02-2009, 09:40 AM

Yes, T9 would work. It's not very fast, though.

Maemo 5 comes with a T9, used in the Phone application. It has the numbers and the characters as you find them in physical T9 keyboards.

What I don't know right now is whether an app could "ask for it" in portrait mode, or the work that would be needed to provide this.

ColdFusion

09-02-2009, 09:46 AM

That's *SO* much more effort to use than simply rotating the thing and using the keyboard. Wow... this is amazing.

duh... like said numerously you can't use the landscape keyboard with one hand while your other hand is busy holding a beer. And no, I refuse letting go of my beer for texting, I'd rather not text at all than letting go of my beer! ;)

Maemo 5 comes with a T9, used in the Phone application. It has the numbers and the characters as you find them in physical T9 keyboards.

What I don't know right now is whether an app could "ask for it" in portrait mode, or the work that would be needed to provide this.

That would be great if possible!

ragnar

09-02-2009, 10:00 AM

Maemo 5 comes with a T9, used in the Phone application. It has the numbers and the characters as you find them in physical T9 keyboards.

What I don't know right now is whether an app could "ask for it" in portrait mode, or the work that would be needed to provide this.

Actually you're perhaps (or am I?) a bit misled now.

Maemo 5 has the ITU-T keypad layout in the phone. T9 on the other hand refers to the algorithm where typing any number once tries to guess... there is "abc", and pressing it once predicts what the user means. ITU-T text input assumes press once for a, press twice for b, press thrice for c.

I haven't seen T9 on Maemo 5.

ysss

09-02-2009, 10:02 AM

We'll just wait and see how the 'mass' receive this limitation, shall we :)
I think this thread has served its purpose as an early indicator.

ColdFusion

09-02-2009, 10:08 AM

Combine this:
http://www.mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/rx51-n900/scr/scr23.jpg
with this:
http://www.mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/rx51-n900/scr/scr27.jpg
And make it portrait mode :)

zerojay

09-02-2009, 10:11 AM

duh... like said numerously you can't use the landscape keyboard with one hand while your other hand is busy holding a beer.

You just haven't tried hard enough! ;)

messus

09-02-2009, 10:12 AM

We'll just wait and see how the 'mass' receive this limitation, shall we :)
I think this thread has served its purpose as an early indicator.

A I agree, let's see!!

An intention and a target-group for this unit is one thing, selling the unit (making people NOT buying other units instead) is a completely different thing..

Iphone most likely instead, I have 6-700 bucks here willing to spend now, was willing to wait for the N900, but I am part of the 'mass', and no portrait mode, no N900 for me!

messus

09-02-2009, 10:14 AM

Guys. This is such a non-issue. If this 'OMG I'll have to flip to landscape to type an SMS' is the N900's biggest ergonomy problem, I'm very very happy.

Non-issue for you, maybe..

For me, a decisive issue..

If both modes were supported, both you and me would be happy, and more units would be sold and more money to maemo and Nokia..

ColdFusion

09-02-2009, 10:20 AM

messus, you could replace all the apps that you'll use and need to be in portrait mode with 3rd party apps that'll have that functionality.

ysss

09-02-2009, 10:21 AM

ragnar

09-02-2009, 10:27 AM

It's a known issue and a tradeoff. We're not trying to dismiss that there wouldn't be use for it.

If we would have decided to do every potentially useful feature known to man before launching the device, N900 only still only be a twinkle in the eye of the various people working with it. And you would have (rightfully) had even more reason to complain what is taking you guys so long.

It is not free. It would have taken a lot of time. We're on step 4. I hope that statement reads friendly and clear. :)

zerojay

09-02-2009, 10:27 AM

@messus: shush, you've just pressed the 'joint of disconnection' where Nokia and Maemo's FOSS community's interest aren't 100% aligned.

A good portion of the community here doesn't care about how many N900s units Nokia can sell because hey have no direct gain from it.

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzt. Try again, sir.

I think you should try the phone out in landscape mode before flipping out because most apps don't run in portrait mode. You might find that it works a lot better than expected and you won't ever miss portrait mode ever again.

Like me.

sjgadsby

09-02-2009, 10:28 AM

...you can't use the landscape keyboard with one hand while your other hand is busy holding a beer.

I don't imbibe, so I can't fully test this use case, but I can hold my N810 in my left hand and type. I've done so on occasion, though typing with one thumb is slower than typing with two, so it's not my first choice.

ysss

09-02-2009, 10:32 AM

zerojay

09-02-2009, 10:36 AM

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=319559&postcount=60

bottom portion.

That line wasn't meant for you in particular.

ysss

09-02-2009, 10:39 AM

That line wasn't meant for you in particular.

I'd appreciate it if you don't quote me directly before you write a line that isn't for me then ;)

attila77

09-02-2009, 10:45 AM

nilchak

09-02-2009, 10:53 AM

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzt. Try again, sir.

I think you should try the phone out in landscape mode before flipping out because most apps don't run in portrait mode. You might find that it works a lot better than expected and you won't ever miss portrait mode ever again.
Like me.

I think Messus and Ysss have a point there - its not a either or case and Ysss does believe that I am sure.

But to be objective, missing a portrait keyboard WOULD be a sore point to the bigger market as a whole - and to reviewers who will judge and evaluate a phone in comparison to the multitude of other devices. That does mean it is a dealbreaker - NO.

And to Ragner's (and Nokia's) point - yes they had to sacrifice the feature for the sake of faster bring-to-market times.

So as long as everybody realises both viewpoints are and can coexist but there will be talk of missing feature (just as in this thread), that's acceptable. I don't think YSSS is cribbing about his viewpoint solely - but the bigger view.
So lets rest this issue.

ColdFusion

09-02-2009, 11:04 AM

I don't imbibe, so I can't fully test this use case, but I can hold my N810 in my left hand and type. I've done so on occasion, though typing with one thumb is slower than typing with two, so it's not my first choice.
Actually I do that, too, sometimes (right hand, though). The thumb is on the keyboard, and I'm holding the device with 4 fingers (my palm is below and not to the sides in that case). Not the most convenient, but doable with beer in other hand (do I have to attach a picture ? :D )
You guys obviously don't drink as much beer as I do ;)

Of course It's a missing feature and of course I'd rather prefer the hw kb any time and of course it doesn't really matter that much not having portrait mode kb and stuff.

wazd

09-02-2009, 11:29 AM

I think Marat will release ATi for fremantle so you'll have these babies in your n900 replacing portrait calculator ;)
http://s58.radikal.ru/i162/0902/05/2f9bc472e0ee.jpg

handful

09-02-2009, 11:39 AM

This morning we were all watching the keynote in the hall, and I got the chance to ask people like ragnar or Mohammad Anwari (Input Method Framework) about this portrait keyboard and the possibility for the community to come up with something useful and usable.

Short and common answer: not easy at all.

Sure, Marcelo or <Your Name Here> can put some designers to work on a qwerty layout and then some coders to integrate it to the framework and make it show up when an app requires it in portrait mode. A very different thing is that Marcelo or <Your Name Here> will be able to hit those keys without mistakes, typing effortlessly with the thumb of your one hand.

If someone comes with a prototype we can start discussing on top of something more concrete.

Qgil :

That's the challenge. While I ( after designing more than half dozen on screen keyboards) now that this is hard, I only proposed after looking at a feel details:

a) The screen is almost exactly as large as the iphone (ipod touch)

And the best:

Nokia Industrial design finally removed the "bevel" around the border of the screen. this also makes the life easier because enables smaller border for the keys that are on the left or right edges.

The real deal here is not about the space: but about plugging the prediction and doing some error correction smart dictionary (flexible) based on word movement pattern.

I truly believe (because of the Ind. Design) that the N900 can have a virtual keyboard in portrait as good as the iphone, and REALLY way better than Android's (HTC MAGIC ) G2.

---

And Qim : You are not only using one thumb, you have the freedom also to double thumb on that, as well using a point finger.

The thing (like you asked before) :"Do you really prefer typing on T9 portrait than in the keyboard fully available "

It's situation based, and in our Usability studies, it does make sense for a lot of people that simply don't want to keep turning the device ALL the time they make something.

- That's truly why I totally understand why the whole device is in landscape, it sends a message : It was made for that orientation.

- And for sure, it would be PAINFUL (I know that the Nokia design UI team for Maemo would suffer like hell to please everyone)

But that's why I posted :

We are not the users :) What makes sense for you and me.. doesn't make sense to the masses :)

karoliinasalmin

09-02-2009, 02:28 PM

Clock (screensaver), digital one, big letters (like in e71)

I think checking time from my mobile is one of the most common uses.

You can just press the power button when keyboard is locked and you will see unlocking screen with clock time. It is not portrait though. This is how I check the time from my N900, I don't use my Symbian phone anymore.

allnameswereout

09-02-2009, 02:56 PM

As pointed out: development takes time, and hardware has its limits. There is no one size fits all.

People want to be able to choose!! Not to be limited!!

Simple as that!Therefore, part of your choice is to pick a different device than N900 to suit your needs.

Such an expensive device, lacking way behind with regards to software, should support both landscape and portrait mode, to justify the price..

And yes, in most cases I would choose portrait mode, and not have to use both my hands just to answar an sms..Then you'd better get device with candybar design. Do you really need touchscreen? From this post I'd say a device like Nokia E71 is good for your specific use case as outlined here. You can use it easily with one hand.

Now, does that make Nokia E71 a killer product and Nokia N900 crap? Ofcourse not. Every device has its pros and cons.

myrjola

09-02-2009, 03:05 PM

You can just press the power button when keyboard is locked and you will see unlocking screen with clock time. It is not portrait though. This is how I check the time from my N900, I don't use my Symbian phone anymore.

OK, thanks for the info.

nilchak

09-02-2009, 03:20 PM

So one thing to infer from all this

There is going to be NO Keyboard less version of the N900 anytime soon

Unless the portrait mode softKB is ready, a HWKB less N900 will be ridiculed in the market - as then you cannot justify asking users to turn the phone around to type on the soft landscape keyboard when in portrait mode. At least with the HWKBD you can justify that.

ysss

09-02-2009, 03:30 PM

@nilchak:

http://www.gsmjar.com/images/Nokia/7700/2057-L.JPG ?

messus

09-02-2009, 04:53 PM

As pointed out: development takes time, and hardware has its limits. There is no one size fits all.

Therefore, part of your choice is to pick a different device than N900 to suit your needs.

Then you'd better get device with candybar design. Do you really need touchscreen? From this post I'd say a device like Nokia E71 is good for your specific use case as outlined here. You can use it easily with one hand.

Now, does that make Nokia E71 a killer product and Nokia N900 crap? Ofcourse not. Every device has its pros and cons.

You don't get it.. I would very much appreciate landscape mode for many/most uses; movie, im, mail, etc...

But being forced to landscape mode for everything is not acceptable for me, and many many more.. I DEMAND that if I pay 6-700 EUR for a pda device it will support both portrait and landscape mode.

And don't patronize me by leading me towards the E71. I know what I want; a state of the art mobile pda device both hardware wize and software wize. - Thats why I am in this thread isn't it? - Do you think I would be making my points in here If I was looking for a symbinan device like the E71/E97 ?? -

I am just saying that if this device is pushed to the market to early without being finished, it will not be a success!!

I honestly think this device looks exceptionally nice, and that it has potential to be maybe THE device many people are looking for now to avoid the iphone epidemic.

BUT, as I have stated; taking into consideration that this device has only a fraction of applications available compared to other units (symbian/wmobile/iphone), and that you are forced to landscape mode only, you CAN NOT justify the asking price for this unit.

I belive people are looking for the ONE ultimate unit which they can use for both surfing/web/leisure, and phone/sms/mms/im etc..
People can't afford, and more importantly don't want to have one unit for surfing and one unit for phoning..

Bring me portrait mode in addition to landscape mode on the N900 and I will not only buy it, I will warmly recommend it on every forum to everyone I know. If not, I will leave you guys alone and go ahead and send my money to apple.

biggzy

09-02-2009, 05:18 PM

its not a deal braker for me altho i would like messaging in both orientations, but the past few years have seen alot of people come from crapy s40 devices and got themselvs a top end s60 device, n900 is one top spec device, people will want, it will bring s60 users to maemo, s40 users etc etc and not everyone will accept the landscape only orientation, yes thats up to the user but it will put people off the device, not everyone buys for top specs like cpu, ram etc, its just that alot of people will want it coz its new and looks nice.

on a side note i can see the n900 being a huge success due to all the hot talk about it all over the s60 forums, i reckon it will sell like the n95 did back in its glory days, theres not been so much heat about a device since the n95, so good luck to the maemo team, uv created a beast :D

range

09-02-2009, 05:37 PM

I DEMAND that if I pay 6-700 EUR for a pda device it will support both portrait and landscape mode.

Well, I also demand to be given a pony for that price, but I don't think I'll get that, even if I preorder.

Bring me portrait mode in addition to landscape mode on the N900 and I will not only buy it, I will warmly recommend it on every forum to everyone I know. If not, I will leave you guys alone and go ahead and send my money to apple.

Hollow threat. At least here.

allnameswereout

09-02-2009, 06:52 PM

But being forced to landscape mode for everything is not acceptable for me, and many many more.. I DEMAND that if I pay 6-700 EUR for a pda device it will support both portrait and landscape mode...and I demand it sets coffee for me. But I'm the only one who wants that feature, so Nokia isn't going to invest in that.

Point is, they decided to not implement that portrait feature (at least not fully) to not delay the release of Nokia N900 and Fremantle. If certain features are in high demand I am sure Nokia will consider to add them! Either way that doesn't mean you'll have your candy tomorow though.

So, outline all the use cases for portrait mode which according to you are important. That is what this thread is about; qgil asked for feedback. This is your chance!

And don't patronize me by leading me towards the E71It was an example. The point was that sacrifices have to be made in hardware design, and that there is no "one size fits all". If you believe an Apple device is right for you, you buy that instead.

(FWIW, I don't see myself using an Apple device in one hand typing though.)

I am just saying that if this device is pushed to the market to early without being finished, it will not be a success!!The point made before by several posters is that whether all applications are compatible with portrait mode or not is for most customers not a dealbreaker. iPhone 3G did not support landscape mode well either (was optimized for portrait mode), nor MMS. Were those dealbreakers? Difficult to say, but the device sold well.

I belive people are looking for the ONE ultimate unit which they can use for both surfing/web/leisure, and phone/sms/mms/im etc..
People can't afford, and more importantly don't want to have one unit for surfing and one unit for phoning..There is however not one device by one manufacturer which is the perfect choice. Else we'd see that device having 100% market penetration.

Bring me portrait mode in addition to landscape mode on the N900 and I will not only buy it, I will warmly recommend it on every forum to everyone I know. If not, I will leave you guys alone and go ahead and send my money to apple.It doesn't seem portrait mode is coming in the way you desire. Maybe you can weed the specific applications you want for portrait mode, and ask the developers to port it over. Maybe they want something back from you then, such as beta testing or money. IOW you will need to invest an amount of work to persue your goal, and crying about it here is not the way you'll get your things done.

So in short: it doesn't seem portrait mode is the primary usage of this device, and it doesn't seem it will be added soon. If it will be added you still have a hardware keyboard optimized for landscape mode. Do you really think you can be satisfied in the short term? I don't think so. You want a device primary developed for portrait mode, you want it now, and the N900 is simply not your piece of cake.

lcuk

09-02-2009, 07:48 PM

please ask nokia if they support rotated xv.
and if they don't right now, could you ask them to make sure it can do ;)

Capt'n Corrupt

09-02-2009, 10:49 PM

This landscape-only stance is rather disappointing.

I fully agree regarding portrait mode. Often it's just far more comfortable or practical to hold the device in portrait mode. As stated numerous times, this is especially true if you only have one hand free.

I can see TONS of scenarios where it would be extremely useful to use the device with a single hand in a pinch.

1) Walking, holding my girlfriends hand while finding directions.
2) Holding a shopping basket at the market while looking up the next ingredient to purchase.
3) Recording myself banging my girlfriend after a great outing and satisfying meal.

Ok, cap, game face.....

Regardless of any of this: considering the potential for many future maemo devices (with varying screen dimensions, no doubt), the team would be well advised to consider that eventually this mode may need to be less a luxury and more a requirement and start planning accordingly.

In any event, I think the Maemo team should pay close attention to the market response given this landscape-only stance; especially considering it's a software problem.

YARR!
}:^)~

qgil

09-03-2009, 12:15 AM

In any event, I think the Maemo team should pay close attention to the market response given this landscape-only stance; especially considering it's a software problem.

Of course! Paying attention to market response is one of the things Nokia does in order to improve its products. The company actually invests a lot on this, far beyond ragnar and me following this thread. ;)

Actually defaulting to landscape mode covering it in all applications is also a result of paying attention to market feedback. We believe that the target audience of Maemo devices will welcome this design paradigm and will prefer it over the default portrait mode.

We are ready to hear the feedback from real N900 users based on their real usage of Maemo devices. Having a first hint based on specs, screenshots and your experiences with other devices is also useful but... You agree that the real analysis comes after using the real thing, first impressions and after a couple of weeks.

allnameswereout

09-03-2009, 12:33 AM

1) Walking, holding my girlfriends hand while finding directions.If she lose your hand she'll feel happy after you grab hers again once you got the directions right. Or if its of such vital importance she'll have the directions on her own phone next time.

2) Holding a shopping basket at the market while looking up the next ingredient to purchase.Indeed, but Qgil asked for more use cases. To be frank I'm wondering about them as well.

I mean, what kind of situations?

Which applications and/or purposes? If its reading a lot of applications with which you can read (and/or write) fall into the class.

As of now its actually a lot like Nokia Communicator. Portrait mode for phone. Rest landscape.

3) Recording myself banging my girlfriend after a great outing and satisfying meal.Come on man, don't use guns... :(

Capt'n Corrupt

09-03-2009, 12:47 AM

@qgil,

I'm glad that nokia is listening. We're all rooting for your team, our community, and this wonderful device! So long as maemo keeps tending in a positive direction, it'll gradually get better and better and better still!

I don't know if you've heard this enough given all of the complaining in this (and similar forums), but great-job, man!

@allnameswereout,

LOL.. She's gotta have it!!

But no more beating this horse (even if there's life in'r yet). I'm sure there are many compelling reasons to use or not use the N900 in portrait or landscape mode. Time will reveal what we really want, what works for us and what doesn't.

YARR!
}:^)~

linuxeventually

09-03-2009, 12:57 AM

This thread shouldn't even exist.

There shouldn't be a question about supporting portrait mode in addition to landscape mode.

Community members created a portrait mode for the N8X0 tablets with a hacked kernel. As far as applications goes, that's on the individual developers. Including a rough portrait mode in the kernel officially (it could be hidden, but for the sake of stability) is a "duh" move.

The "well there isn't a portrait-mode keyboard", wrong. The stylus keyboard works great in portrait mode. Yes the finger keyboard doesn't. But I think we can take care of that, ok?

It's not even about reading the text, rotated 90 degrees. IM windows, web browsers, etc. allow for more content (less scrolling) on screen in portrait mode. Yes applications can do forced pseudo portrait mode, such as the calculator VTI.

As with an accelerometer on board this is no excuse.

Take the initiative team Nokia.

It doesn't need to be pretty, it just needs to work.

ragnar

09-03-2009, 01:21 AM

There shouldn't be a question about supporting portrait mode in addition to landscape mode.

Community members created a portrait mode for the N8X0 tablets with a hacked kernel. As far as applications goes, that's on the individual developers. Including a rough portrait mode in the kernel officially (it could be hidden, but for the sake of stability) is a "duh" move.

As with an accelerometer on board this is no excuse.
Take the initiative team Nokia.

It doesn't need to be pretty, it just needs to work.

http://maemo.org/community/maemo-developers/howto_enable_portrait_mode_support_on_fremantle/

http://wiki.maemo.org/Using_Fremantle_Widgets#Listening_To_Screen_Orient ation_Changes

Conboy for instance is already using this and supporting both landscape and portrait mode, and it works nicely. Even the rotation looks quite good.

qgil

09-03-2009, 06:55 AM

The "well there isn't a portrait-mode keyboard", wrong. The stylus keyboard works great in portrait mode.

Even if true, this doesn't help the one hand scenario that seems to be common to all the use cases mentioned here.

It doesn't need to be pretty, it just needs to work.

That's the thing. Except bookmark/link based browsing and media player, most of the use cases mentioned here require a one hand input method that 'needs to work'. We are only saying that it is not trivial at all.

Applications supporting portrait mode welcome. Prototypes of portrait input methods welcome.

Capt'n Corrupt

09-03-2009, 09:28 AM

Hey qgil, my man...

I figured I'd do a little less arguing and pitch an idea instead.

How about this:

Since the app can 'choose' weather it wants to support portrait, there is little worry here as the community will drum something apps up based upon demand.

For the desktop...

If widgets are limited to fitting into 2 adjacent 400px x 400px boxes (roughly half the usable area of the desktop), then rotation and re-alignment should be a simple matter: rotate the two boxes and stack one on top of the other (perhaps scale a touch -- thank jeebus for clutter). The flick gesture could remain be up/down (== side to side in landscape).

For the selection menus...

This can be applied to buttons/text/onscreen elements as well, but it implies that all items fit comfortably within two 400x400 boxes in landscape, which can more or less be automatically rotated and stacked in portrait.

I believe the N97 does something similar with it's home screen, though there's no reason why the widgets/buttons/textboxes on the N900 would have to be a uniform size.

Whaddaya think?

YARR!
}:^)~

tangs

09-03-2009, 09:39 AM

Interresting comment Capt'n Corrupt, what do you think qgil ?

I found this on the symbian-freak website :

http://www.symbian-freak.com/images/news/09/09/fennec_n900_00.jpg

intersting to, isn't it ?

:)

Capt'n Corrupt

09-03-2009, 09:42 AM

Hey, I just had a silly thought...

Can't the developers make their own desktop widgets portrait aware? Or possibly fork the nokia code to do this?

YARR!
}:^)~

Jaffa

09-03-2009, 09:52 AM

If widgets are limited to fitting into 2 adjacent 400px x 400px boxes (roughly half the usable area of the desktop), then rotation and re-alignment should be a simple matter: rotate the two boxes and stack one on top of the other (perhaps scale a touch -- thank jeebus for clutter).

Except the widgets, shortcuts, contacts and bookmarks can all be different sizes and are freely placeable.

Ah, or is your idea that you'd have some kind of margin (like a book), which a desktop icon couldn't bridge?

That might work. Apparently hildon-desktop is going to be open source, so even if Nokia didn't include the patch it could be made available through Extras.

ragnar

09-03-2009, 10:05 AM

For the desktop...

If widgets are limited to fitting into 2 adjacent 400px x 400px boxes (roughly half the usable area of the desktop), then rotation and re-alignment should be a simple matter: rotate the two boxes and stack one on top of the other (perhaps scale a touch -- thank jeebus for clutter). The flick gesture could remain be up/down (== side to side in landscape).

Yes, that is exactly what the N97 for instance does, I believe. Two columns in landscape, one in portrait. Each applet occupies a fixed box in there.

Then again, I also think that it's ... erm, not a very good experience to restrict users and applets like that.

tangs

09-03-2009, 10:06 AM

Except the widgets, shortcuts, contacts and bookmarks can all be different sizes and are freely placeable.

Ah, or is your idea that you'd have some kind of margin (like a book), which a desktop icon couldn't bridge?

That might work. Apparently hildon-desktop is going to be open source, so even if Nokia didn't include the patch it could be made available through Extras.

ideas ideas... :)

Capt'n Corrupt

09-03-2009, 10:42 AM

intersting to, isn't it ?

:)

It is interesting..

I suspect it would be in Mozilla's best interest to include a portrait mode for their maturing Firefox Mobile browser. I recall reading that it was a priority to get portrait working for WinMo devices. I suspect that a portrait maemo version should not be far off.

I hope it performs well, as it would make a nice alternative to the built-in N900 browser. Considering how close the projects [likely] are, it would probably mean they could share code quite easily.

YARR!
}:^)~

johnkzin

09-03-2009, 10:44 AM

Then again, I also think that it's ... erm, not a very good experience to restrict users and applets like that.

"While we agree that 20 peanuts is a great snack, we feel that 10 peanuts is too few. Therefore, we're going to give you ZERO peanuts."

So, rather than restricting users/applets "like that", you're restricting them to an even larger extent?

Given the choice between "quirky but workable rotation" and "no rotation", I think you'll find that "quirky but workable" will win. Certainly it's not as good as a better solution, that should be delivered as soon as it can be made to work cleanly and reliably ... but in the mean time, _some_ capability is better than _none_.

10 peanuts may be too few, but it's more/better than zero peanuts.

ysss

09-03-2009, 10:49 AM

lol john, you know that analogy was flawed.. but I had to click the Thanks button for making me LOL anyway :D

I've been hearing many explanations\excuses about not having portrait mode in N900. In general I've 'accepted' the current condition.. but I feel that none of the answers really 'clicked', maybe because none of them have been really candid\open in the delivery.

Capt'n Corrupt

09-03-2009, 10:52 AM

Ah, or is your idea that you'd have some kind of margin (like a book), which a desktop icon couldn't bridge?

That might work. Apparently hildon-desktop is going to be open source, so even if Nokia didn't include the patch it could be made available through Extras.

Yes, exactly! I should have been clearer in adding: the widgets/buttons/text-boxes/etc would not be allowed to breach the boundaries of the two boxes -- they must fit entirely within them.

I love the 'book' anaolgy. We'll hence-forth call it the a book-ui. The idea is that items can fit on two square pages, and these two square pages can be easily oriented landscape or portrait through a simple rotate.

This solution is quite elegant.

... and with that the Book UI concept was born ...

YARR!
}:^)~

ragnar

09-03-2009, 11:11 AM

"While we agree that 20 peanuts is a great snack, we feel that 10 peanuts is too few. Therefore, we're going to give you ZERO peanuts."

So, rather than restricting users/applets "like that", you're restricting them to an even larger extent?

Given the choice between "quirky but workable rotation" and "no rotation", I think you'll find that "quirky but workable" will win. Certainly it's not as good as a better solution, that should be delivered as soon as it can be made to work cleanly and reliably ... but in the mean time, _some_ capability is better than _none_.

10 peanuts may be too few, but it's more/better than zero peanuts.

Well, I really hope that you're half-kidding with this. :)

Making it crappier for the main use case, to support another use case, it's not a tradeoff without any loss. The beauty of the Home canvases now is that you can do free and pixel perfect layouts. Place items exactly where you want, as many as you want, and the items can be relatively free sizes. Align items with the wallpaper image etc.

Following the clever analogies, what pearl of wisdom could I come up with...

Either you can be the architect of your own home, and design it the way you like, make the walls and measurements down to an inch. And "it only works in landscape", the building would topple down if you turn it. Or you can build your home out of a couple of huge lego blocks, in which case you can also turn the whole cube around 90 degrees.

Ok, it's the best analogy on the internets. Or then not.

(And yes, there are of course other ways to solve this.)

But please, it's not zero peanuts.

tangs

09-03-2009, 01:35 PM

So right now, the real question is not anymore :
do we need the portrait mode on the N900 ?
but : How built the portrait mode on the N900 ? :rolleyes:

sachin007

09-03-2009, 01:43 PM

Can someone help me to understand something very basic here

WILL THE COMMUNITY HACKED ROTATION SUPPORT WHICH IS ALREADY AVAILABLE FOR MAEMO 4 WORK IF ENABLED ON THE N900?

I mean if some one re-engineered the current rotation support on to the n900 will it work?

Thanks

konttori

09-03-2009, 03:17 PM

The current rotation is x rotation base, quite like the maemo 4 version was. So, most of that work is already done. All applications need to do is set their window to support portrait mode.

konttori

09-03-2009, 03:19 PM

sachin007

09-03-2009, 03:31 PM

So my question is that will the community be able to hack that x support to the default applications including the desktop? It doesnt have to be perfect but will it atleast work like the current rotations support in n8x0 tablets?

Thanks

Capt'n Corrupt

09-03-2009, 04:13 PM

As to the other comments, let's just say that we are investigating options on how to extend the currently limited support of portrait mode. Whether that would extend significantly, we would definitely also support portrait in switcher. On desktop I don't see rationale for it for multitude of reasons, most having been mentioned already before, but for example bg image being an addition to the already mentioned examples.

The background image issue is not an issue at all: in portrait it becomes an up/down slide rather than a side to side slide. It's actually a more natural motion (IMO) for the thumb anyway (similar to a vertical kenetic scrolling list). The important info (the widgets) would be clearly readable at the correct orientation and easily accessible.

A few more use cases (just to throw it out there):

Changing tracks while jogging after pulling the unit from the pocket. Jogging with both hands tied up is very difficult.
Changing tracks while riding a bike. Ok with one hand, dangerous with 2. Generally I quickly skip tracks, not play with playlists, and I often do this without looking, on empty rural roads. It's rather safe
Using the device as a 'remote control' for ones PVR or HTPC.

Just thought I'd throw those in there. Anyhow, as before, we'll see what the market says.

YARR!
}:^)~

ysss

09-03-2009, 04:25 PM

How is the background orientation becomes a problem?

It should rotate along with the rest of the on screen items. Just like paintings hung with string to nails on a wall, they just follow gravity.

Capt'n Corrupt

09-03-2009, 04:26 PM

@konttori

I know it's difficult to imagine given your perspective why it might seem pointless to have portrait more supported. I can give you my honest testimony.

From presonal experience using a ipod touch, I know that I spend around 60% of the time in portrait mode and 40% in landscape while using the device. Some things are just more comfortable to simply casually do with one hand, and most of my actions are casual.

YARR!
}:^)~

ysss

09-03-2009, 04:31 PM

rofl cap'n, you've said the cursed word... now your opinions will be worthless in this forum :D

ragnar

09-03-2009, 04:36 PM

The background image issue is not an issue at all: in portrait it becomes an up/down slide rather than a side to side slide. It's actually a more natural motion (IMO) for the thumb anyway (similar to a vertical kenetic scrolling list). The important info (the widgets) would be clearly readable at the correct orientation and easily accessible.

I'm sorry, but are you now really thinking about the problem at all?

Imagine your Home screen in landscape, filled with widgets, with text, going horizontally within the widgets, say one widget being full width on the home canvas; and an image of a wallpaper, say a picture of some seascape.

Now how exactly would that look like in portrait?

Capt'n Corrupt

09-03-2009, 05:02 PM

Capt'n Corrupt

09-03-2009, 05:04 PM

rofl cap'n, you've said the cursed word... now your opinions will be worthless in this forum :D

This has suddenly got as awkard as me being next to a really hot girl as well my girlfriend....

Can I re-register as Col. Corrupt? :D

YARR!
};^)~

sachin007

09-03-2009, 05:13 PM

allnameswereout

09-03-2009, 05:53 PM

Changing tracks while jogging after pulling the unit from the pocket. Jogging with both hands tied up is very difficult.
Changing tracks while riding a bike. Ok with one hand, dangerous with 2. Generally I quickly skip tracks, not play with playlists, and I often do this without looking, on empty rural roads. It's rather safe
Using the device as a 'remote control' for ones PVR or HTPC.
OI,

Jogging is one of the main sports I perform. Instead of using an iPod touch with Nike+ for jogging I'd rather have a device like an iPod nano with my favourite jogging tracks. It is very easy to skip a trick with iPod nano. However what is really nice on iPod is the way it big brother takes track of your music taste. Rating, most played tracks, playlists, favourite tracks, browse on genre/artist/album, and so on.

Now, during jogging there is one thing I want to do and that is: jogging. I don't want to take device out of my pocket (do you know how **** that runs?), look on my touchscreen instead of concentrating, or skip through huge lists of music to find that one track I want to hear. That is why I have an armholster for my iPod touch. Mind you, the thing is still too heavy to be comfortable, but it works. I could control the iPod touch from my arm, but during running that isn't feasable and the accelerometer keeps hesitating back and forth.

Instead, while running I pick a 'mix' (something long which already is mixed and good) or I control the iPod music using my wrist watch remote control. This would easily work for Nokia N900 as well. In fact, I'd say voice commands are in future the only viable way to control your music player during sports.

For remote control I understand, but that is just legacy issues. You don't have to point the device to the PVR or whatever as it goes via WiFi or BlueTooth. It does not matter in which way you hold or point the device, and the touchscreen buttons can be shown in either way.

IO.

How is the background orientation becomes a problem?

It should rotate along with the rest of the on screen items. Just like paintings hung with string to nails on a wall, they just follow gravity.Almost no backgrounds are 1:1. 800x480 resolution is not 1:1. So your background is not exactly the same anymore. While for some backgrounds this won't matter, for many it will.

Just because some widget with wide lines you don't want to support portrait mode? We totally understand that some widgets are not meant for portrait mode... but give us the choice. If we really want that widget to act well in the portrait mode we will reduce the width and make the single line show in double lines. Dont act like apple and tell us what to do and what not. We totally understand that you had to prioritize your resources. But what we don't like is telling us to use the landscape mode only. We believe the community can easily hack rotation support and everyone will be happy. Just don't tell us what to do and what not.Well with the source open we as community have that freedom. Just don't expect Nokia to plan to deliver such unpolished experiences to the default experience. Do you see it before you, someone trying out the device and experiencing some ugliness like this? Certain media like Engarde would love to write about that.

range

09-03-2009, 06:00 PM

I think you should go back and [re]read some of my previous posts regarding the widgets.

I'd rather have no portrait mode on the Desktop screen than being able to only have two widgets on it which cannot be wider than 400 Pixels. Think RSS reader or twitter widget - I'd want them as wide as possible.

Or let me have three or four widgets on one Desktop.

How is that supposed to look when rotated to portrait mode?

sachin007

09-03-2009, 06:16 PM

I'd rather have no portrait mode on the Desktop screen than being able to only have two widgets on it which cannot be wider than 400 Pixels. Think RSS reader or twitter widget - I'd want them as wide as possible.

Or let me have three or four widgets on one Desktop.

How is that supposed to look when rotated to portrait mode?

You could always disable what you don't need.

range

09-03-2009, 06:22 PM

You could always disable what you don't need.

Like Portrait Mode? :rolleyes:

allnameswereout

09-03-2009, 07:05 PM

You could always disable what you don't need.Or enable what you do need.

mrojas

09-03-2009, 08:47 PM

So you prefer to stick in portrait and type a text on a T9 rather than turn the device and type the thing on the comfortable keyboard? Seriously? :)

Yeah, seriously. When I am walking around and I need to do something quick on the screen, I very much prefer to have one hand free just in case. That's the reason I chose a E71 over an iPhone (and why I didn't end buying a N97): because I can use it decently with one hand, and very speedy with two hands. The situation is different when I am sitting in my house, then I could spring out the keyboard.

Another reason: around here in the third world (a market Nokia likes) there are plenty of people waiting to snatch your phone and run away. Common targets are people that have their two hands busy. And I feel my phone safer when I grab it fully with my hand (I have big hands, though). When I carry something with two hands, it is very easy to grab the phone by the middle and snatch it away.

And finally, and tbh, I find the N97 keyboard....not so good compared to the E71's.

mrojas

09-03-2009, 08:56 PM

elimoon8

09-04-2009, 12:47 AM

Just an idea, and I don't know if this will go over well, but....

How about a completely different desktop layout in portrait mode?
I mean: different contacts, different backgrounds, different widgets, the works.

This idea came from watching all of the n900 videos, where all the home screens for most of the users are already cluttered - this would give users 8 home screens to work with instead of 4. It would also let users arrange things as they want in either mode, since the widgets don't transfer anyway.
The *big* downside: If users want to access some widget they put in a landscape-orientation while holding the phone in portrait mode, they will have to rotate the phone, which will get kind of annoying after the first couple of times.

OR

When the phone is switched to portrait mode for the first time (or landscape mode for the first time), all the desktop widgets lose their positions and clutter at the bottom of the screen (annoying, I know). The user is then given an option on each thumbnail to "lock" its position in that location (kind of like drag-lock, but more location based). That way, say I wanted a widget in the upper left corner in both portrait and landscape orientation. I would just move it there in landscape and rotate the phone and "lock" it in place in portrait. It would be annoying the first time, but from then on out, the desktop would look like I wanted it to. This would solve the problem of making the software figure out where to put widgets and instead leave that choice to the user (and that's what we're all about, isn't it?).
The *slightly smaller* downside: widgets that span the whole screen in landscape will not work well at all. Widgets even slightly bigger than the width of the screen in portrait mode will break it. Possible solution: a toggle that would make such widgets automagically "hide" in portrait mode.

A "tweak" to the last solution I proposed: instead of having the widgets lose positions, the software could *attempt* to reorient them and indicate to the user that the layout is a temporary one that they can tweak and customize. I know quite a few people that wouldn't bother changing the order of the widgets around. It would also give a more polished "feel" to the rotation and not give the user a "darn, now why did I do that" sort of moment when the icons lose position.

Just throwing that out there...

ragnar

09-04-2009, 01:23 AM

Thanks Elimoon8, that is already a bit more sensible. Separate free layouts for portrait and landscape would already solve some parts of the layout puzzle. It doesn't yet solve the wallpaper (which also could be separate for both), or very wide widgets like the Mauku widget (where resizing would need to happen).

In general, as Konttori also said: yes we're actively working on increasing portrait mode support. Perhaps I could chat with Quim over how much of that roadmap we could share already.

johnkzin

09-04-2009, 01:28 AM

Well, I really hope that you're half-kidding with this. :)

Yes, half. :)

And, I realized the analogy was absurd, but I couldn't think of a good one, so I just rolled with it. I still think it made the point though ... while the stated N97 style of home-screen rotation may not be ideal, it's better than no home-screen rotation at all, IMO (and apparently in the opinions of other people here). But, what I was replying to came across as "we don't like the N97 style of home-screen rotation, so we didn't give you home-screen rotation at all".

While, I do recognize that there are cases where something that is half-done, especially in a user interface, can be worse than doing nothing at all ... but it sounds like the N97 style was good enough for Nokia to ship it, so I don't think that fits this argument.

(and, I don't think you're giving us zero peanuts, that was just part of making the point)

elimoon8

09-04-2009, 01:53 AM

Separate free layouts for portrait and landscape would already solve some parts of the layout puzzle.

I know it does simplify things quite a bit, but I can just see myself trying to check a weather widget and realizing that I left it on the 2nd home screen in landscape orientation. :(

I just don't know.

Side comment about possibly why people want portrait mode:
I think it's just because it feels more like paper. We grew up using paper in portrait orientation. I know, for one, when I want to read something and not interact a lot (like just reading the news/online articles), I would prefer to hold the device in portrait mode. Note that even most websites are designed like sheets of paper. Logic follows, that more of the content could be seen in a portrait orientation.

Even responding to a quick text message on the go, I would prefer a portrait mode keyboard, rather than a landscape one. Note that I *would* be using both hands in my portrait mode cases: one hand to hold the phone, the other to type, scroll, etc.

If I were to get deeply into a text messaging session with someone, or go to a website that requires a lot of user interaction (Facebook/social networking sites, for example), I would definitely pull out the hardware keyboard and proceed to use that.

I don't know, I think it's just something psychological. It's almost as if pulling out the hardware keyboard is a commitment to devoting time to whatever activity you're planning on doing.

Also, I'm sorry it makes things harder on you guys, and I can't exactly explain why, but portrait mode "feels" right for some things (for me at least).

johnkzin

09-04-2009, 01:55 AM

I'm sorry, but are you now really thinking about the problem at all?

Imagine your Home screen in landscape, filled with widgets, with text, going horizontally within the widgets, say one widget being full width on the home canvas; and an image of a wallpaper, say a picture of some seascape.

Now how exactly would that look like in portrait?

I'll mention another of ysss' accursed word (android/g1) ... but this works just fine in Android. They cheat a little, which you can figure out from using it a little bit ... but it does have a grid of home screen objects. The grid is basically a 4x4 grid, and objects can take up 1 or more grid spaces (have to rectangular, but it could be a 4x1 grid, a 3x3 grid, etc ... application icons, by default, are 1x1 though).

You can rotate it, and the grid just rotates. And the image behind it. You do get different views of the background image when that happens (the closest way to describe it on a NIT would be: the background image is 800x800, and you see different sub-sections of that based on whether you're in portrait or landscape ... or, if you don't like that android-ish method you could simply re-scale/re-stretch the image on each rotation).

Part of their cheat is that: it's a 4x4 grid, in the middle of the screen. 4x4 rotates quite easily. The other cheat is that the bottom of the screen (in portrait)/right side of the screen (in landscape) is taken up by the application tray, which helps hide the fact that the grid is only 4x4, and not the whole screen.

In Maemo, you'd probably say that the grid is (in pixels) 480x480, centered on the screen. The area to either side of the grid could be for special things, or just for "see through to the background image" area. They could even be for certain universal buttons (answer call/dialer, browser, calendar, reject call/screen saver), and the other area could be for status symbols (an envelope if you have email, something else if you have SMS messages, something else if you have a missed call, something else if you have a voice-mail, etc.; click on the status icon to pull up that application).

Within the 480x480 area, you'd divide that up into however many grid spaces you want, as long as each space is square, and evenly divides the 480x480 area (so, for a 4x4 grid, each space would be 120x120). And then you can allow widgets to take up a 2x2, 3x2, 2x3, 3x3, 4x1, 1x4, or maybe even a 4x4 area (assuming you did a 4x4 grid).

And, note that those last two paragraphs are JUST for the home screen, not for the user interface in general.

I don't know about anyone else, but that'd be good enough for me, for the home screen. I could use it for quick status checks and to launch other applications, and not have to care what orientation it's in -- in any orientation, it will still work. No worries about how I'm holding it, no worries about reading the text or recognizing icons that are rotated away from horizontal, etc.

johnkzin

09-04-2009, 01:58 AM

As I said, in the N97, I don't have the prettiest solution, nor the best on-screen keyboard (T9 ugh), but at least I have something. Very different from not having it at all. If we can get at least it (maybe borrowing from the phone as you mention), then great. Something is something!

Want some peanuts? :)

ragnar

09-04-2009, 02:03 AM

Yes, half. :)

And, I realized the analogy was absurd, but I couldn't think of a good one, so I just rolled with it. I still think it made the point though ... while the stated N97 style of home-screen rotation may not be ideal, it's better than no home-screen rotation at all, IMO (and apparently in the opinions of other people here). But, what I was replying to came across as "we don't like the N97 style of home-screen rotation, so we didn't give you home-screen rotation at all".

While, I do recognize that there are cases where something that is half-done, especially in a user interface, can be worse than doing nothing at all ... but it sounds like the N97 style was good enough

Yes. Well. The N97 is a fine product and S60 5.0 is a fine piece of software, I don't want to say that. But ... um, lets say that perhaps there are even better solutions to this problem. ;)

I'm all for enabling methods for the community to try out Home in portrait and trying to find clever solutions for the problems in hand.

I'm not all for shipping by default "to normal customers" with non-optimal solutions. In those cases, from my perspective, no feature at all is a better solution than a poorly thought out and implemented feature.

The hooks to detect portrait mode are there, as seen in Call app and in Conboy. But enabling it would basically require enabling portrait in the Dashboard view, because they are so integrally linked.

And that's a whole other can of worms: what would the Dashboard show in portrait mode, if the user came to Dashboard from landscape mode and then turns the device: do we ask each application to re-render itself into portrait. What do those applications do that cannot re-render themselves. Are there portrait and landscape thumbnails there at the same time. Or vice versa, if the user comes to Dashboard from portrait view. Do portrait applications still have a landscape app shaped thumbnail. Are the thumbnail contents rotated 90 degrees around. Do the users get surprised if the thumbnail icon they press in the Dashboard does not elegantly zoom into the full screen view (since the Dashboard would then have the thumbnail of the incorrect orientation [many apps look different in portrait and landscape] etc.).

ragnar

09-04-2009, 02:14 AM

I know it does simplify things quite a bit, but I can just see myself trying to check a weather widget and realizing that I left it on the 2nd home screen in landscape orientation. :(

Side comment about possibly why people want portrait mode:
I think it's just because it feels more like paper. We grew up using paper in portrait orientation. I know, for one, when I want to read something and not interact a lot (like just reading the news/online articles), I would prefer to hold the device in portrait mode. Note that even most websites are designed like sheets of paper. Logic follows, that more of the content could be seen in a portrait orientation.

Also, I'm sorry it makes things harder on you guys, and I can't exactly explain why, but portrait mode "feels" right for some things (for me at least).

Well, you could specify that it's a free layout per orientation, but the same contents for each of the pages. So that if your weather is on the first page, it is there on both orientations: it could just be in a different position in portrait and in landscape.

And yes, I agree and I think we all agree that ... I hope that it doesn't feel that we would be disputing that there wouldn't be uses to portrait mode, that it wouldn't be a good feature to have. One hand usage etc. are all fair and true. So no need to convince anyone that it wouldn't be useful. It would be useful.

... Remember, this is not step 5. ;)

elimoon8

09-04-2009, 02:25 AM

I can see ragnar's points, and I think what he proposes would be fine. The instructions for enabling portrait mode for community members should be clear enough for non-developers to follow (like myself) with a boldfaced note that some features will not be as smooth as in landscape mode (or some features may be downright broken).

I *do* think, however, that we *can* find solutions to those problems and eventually push it as an update for "normal" users. It just might take a little time.

I disagree with johnkzin that an unfinished portrait mode should be enabled by default for "normal" users. Apple, with their iPhones/iPod Touch devices, follows the logic that giving "normal" users access to only *fully* developed features makes for a better "experience" overall. I know the people in this forum are quite different than the iPhone/iPod Touch market, but believe me, most of the people owning those device love them a lot. Why else would they pay ridiculous fees to mobile contractors to keep the devices?

ColdFusion

09-04-2009, 04:05 AM

Here are three scenarios:
1. A contact widget with the photo of the contact and his status. - you could just rotate that 90 degrees, no problem here.
2. A widget that spans the whole width in landscape like mauku - shrink it to fit the size in portrait mode, it's still useful because you could see if there is a new message, but if you want to read it you'll have to do that in landscape
3. Long widgets that don't have text in them - like OMWeather it could reorient itself automatically with five icons in a row or in a colon.

You could give rotation posibility to the widgets and leave it to the developers how they'd look like in portrait and landscape modes. They could transform in something different. Like for example the twitter widget could display the whole tweet in landscape mode or just the number of new tweets in portrait mode.

I also like the idea to be able to place the widgets in different positions in landscape/portrait modes. No need for a new wallpaper imho.

In the Dashboard the apps that have portrait mode could reorient themselves automatically.

pelago

09-04-2009, 07:46 AM

I've been thinking about the widgets on desktop problem myself over the days since I saw the first videos, and in my mind have come to similar solutions as ragnar and elimoon8. That is, the user could move widgets to separate positions on portrait and landscape mode, and those positions would be remembered once set.

I propose that resizable widgets should allow the user to resize them separately in the two orientations (so if I resized it in one orientation, it would not affect the other orientation). That way you could have a one-line very wide widget in landscape mode that the user could chose to resize to a less wide two-line widget in portrait.

There might be a problem with non-resizable widgets which are wider in landscape mode than 480px. Maybe it should be a style guideline that no widget can force a minimum width greater than 480px.

I would suggest by default when you first rotate, individual widgets rotate around a point that makes sense, probably their mid-point, rather than falling to the bottom of the screen or similar. Maybe the widgets could also auto-resize so that at least all four corners are reachable to allow resizing. That would create a good first estimation, but then the user could tweak their position and size to suit the new orientation. Just to repeat to make clear, the positions and sizes would be remembered per widget separately for portrait and landscape. There could be some fancy transition eye candy if desired between the two states, so that the eye doesn't lose sight of the widget one is interested in when rotating.

As ragnar says, it's probably best to keep widgets on the same page in both orientations. Otherwise you might be looking at, say, a scrolling RSS widget, change orientation then find it disappears because it's not present on that page in the other orientation. For the same reason, I don't think the user should be allowed to hide widgets in one orientation vs the other, even if they cannot find an optimum position for the widget in both orientations, as that would later cause confusion, I'm sure.

Regarding the desktop wallpaper, I think by default just use the same wallpaper, but allow the user to use different wallpapers for the two orientations if they wish. That way, if they had text on a wallpaper (which would normally appear sideways on the other orientation), the user could choose different wallpaper that made sense in the other orientation.

In my mind, I think I would prefer to still swipe left and right to reach different pages in portrait mode (rather than up and down as suggested above), although without actually trying with a device I'm not 100% sure.

ysss

09-04-2009, 08:01 AM

Falling to the bottom of the screen sounds like a chore.

Would it be hard to simply rotate the icons and text, without rotating the widgets? So there's no need of widget resize\replacement\movements. They all stay where they are, except the text and icons are rotated 90'.

This can be used as temporary measure until the rest of the system is ready to adopt more portrait-friendly usecases.

Jack6428

09-04-2009, 11:07 AM

for me would be enough if Nokia added to portrait mode even only sms(read, write)...and calculator.. but hey, anything extra is welcome as long as it works

tangs

09-04-2009, 11:07 AM

maybe a part of reply inhere :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhrGxyVfEZ0

I think it's interesting to see it

ColdFusion

09-04-2009, 11:34 AM

maybe a part of reply inhere :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhrGxyVfEZ0

I think it's interesting to see it

I like the touch focus and the virtual fish :D And that are some fast typing thumbs ;)

Capt'n Corrupt

09-04-2009, 12:13 PM

lol... Virtual fish? Where the frak did that come from?

}:^D~

korbé

09-04-2009, 12:53 PM

Elimoon8, Ragnar, Your ideas for the widget rotate are simply great and awesome.

I realy like thath.

For the background, rather than using a default 3200x480 ((800x4)x480), why not use a 3200x800 ((800x4)x800?

And for widgets too wide, we could make like for software: 2 UI

Right, remains there any problem finding a solution?

christexaport

09-04-2009, 01:19 PM

I haven't had time to read this entire thread, but autorotation of the entire UI is a must for me. I champion one handed usage, and with a touchscreen, it is mandatory to have it.

Has anyone looked at Android and how it handles autorotation of the freely placed widgets on its desktops?

I think going forward, since the widgets are freely set, they should have separate placements for landscape and portrait modes, and when rotating, the widgets should animate and move to their new locations with each rotation.

Another is to keep them still and only rotate the content within the widget box, which is a bad idea in my opinion. Keeping the widgets' orientation static as the screen rotates may not suit the content within.

korbé

09-04-2009, 01:26 PM

Elimoon8 has already proposed an idea for Widgets. It is very interesting and quite easy to make.

korbé

09-04-2009, 02:21 PM

I have a question:

When a software goes to vertical mode, is this his window that rotates 90deg and resized or is it the X Window server?

If it's X Windows, it's no need to rotate 90deg widgets: simply reverse their coordinated X and Y.

And during the first rotation, after placing a Widget, Maemo can correct automatically coordinated of the Widget if it exceeds the screen.

After, be it Maemo which corrects any single the position of the Widget, or be the user moves it, Maemo remembers hes position in horizontal mode and vertical mode.
Thus, the widgets will have different positions for the vertical mode and horizontal mode. Like the very good idea of Elimoon8.

mrojas

09-04-2009, 03:49 PM

Look what I found (credit to Marcelo Eduardo off course)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/handful/3880956497/in/photostream/

Capt'n Corrupt

09-04-2009, 04:05 PM

Look what I found (credit to Marcelo Eduardo off course)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/handful/3880956497/in/photostream/

That's not the only noise in the market. Slashgear makes specific mention that one-handed tweeting on-the-go isn't realistic with the unit in their review:

http://www.slashgear.com/nokia-n900-browser-demo-first-impressions-video-0455122/

}:^|~

Capt'n Corrupt

09-04-2009, 04:17 PM

I should add, it's not negative, but it is being noticed.

}:^!~

allnameswereout

09-04-2009, 04:28 PM

I have a question:

When a software goes to vertical mode, is this his window that rotates 90deg and resized or is it the X Window server?The thing doing the rendering does this. Nowadays its all GL, so I think Clutter (http://www.clutter-project.org/) handles this. So the software would check if X > Y or not and tell Clutter to draw horizontally or certically.

PS: MPX and XI2 is only recently being included in X.Org.

elimoon8

09-05-2009, 02:21 AM

I want to create concepts for the n900 desktop rotation. I *may* not have time to do it myself, but I'm sure if the following things were available, *someone* with moderate image editing skills could do it.

Things needed:
- Actual pictures of all 4 desktops from a user. The messier, the better (it'll help to figure out how the rotation will actually work). Remember to blur out anything you don't want us to see.
- A picture of one of those "dialog boxes" that popup near the bottom of the screen (one of those that you can dismiss by just touching outside the information/confirmation box.
- An idea of the actual font used in the n900 system "dialog boxes." This could help make the concept pictures more realistic.

Deedend

09-05-2009, 03:06 AM

Non-issue for you, maybe..

For me, a decisive issue..

If both modes were supported, both you and me would be happy[...]

I agree... I hope there will be any day in the future a portrait version at least of the messaging (sms) and browser section...

Tommy

09-05-2009, 07:34 AM

I've red most of the thread and I didn't understand, does it support portrait mode "the first screen after unlocking? Do I need to slide my thumb over a line or just flick the side button. For example, I'm holding it in portrait mode with one hand and what..... always when I unlock it somehow, the calling pad activates...?? I hope I am stupid..... :confused:

ysss

09-05-2009, 12:06 PM

Check out this crazy gimmicky video of Sony Experia x2's way of handling multi-oriented home screen:

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/09/02/sony-ericsson-xperia-x2-first-hands-on/

YoDude

09-05-2009, 12:55 PM

Check out this crazy gimmicky video of Sony Experia x2's way of handling multi-oriented home screen:

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/09/02/sony-ericsson-xperia-x2-first-hands-on/

Lol... WinMo 6.5

***

The problem as I understand it isn't so much the home screen, or multiple desktops, or even the dang dashboard by themselves... The problem is consistency among all applications while managing multiple tasks.

I am pro'ly wrong (as that is about to be pointed out :) ) but as I also understand it, this shortcoming may only be with fremantle at this point and will be supported in future releases of Maemo by Nokia.

Is this about right?

christexaport

09-05-2009, 08:17 PM

I slightly agree. Maemo5 has things I like, but giving up one handed operation will be hard for me. I used to do all of my writing while walking my dog, a 78 lb. pit bull. I doubt I can do that with Maemo and a QWERTY pad. I think T9 support via an onscreen or even better a real keypad would be great. That along with no portrait support for the entire UI are my biggest complaints for the otherwise great device.

pelago

09-06-2009, 06:02 AM

jimizzle, I initially clicked Thanks on your post, until I saw you posted the same thing in three threads! Please just post once.

hhedberg

09-06-2009, 06:39 AM

It doesn't yet solve the wallpaper (which also could be separate for both), or very wide widgets like the Mauku widget (where resizing would need to happen).

This may be a little bit off topic, but I am going to share you a secret (that can be found from the source code also).

The size and the shape of Mauku Widget is based on the widget's background image. The image is normally loaded from the file /usr/shareimages/mauku-widget-background.png. However, if there exists an image in /home/user/.mauku-widget/background.png that is used instead.

So, if you want to change the shape or the look of your Mauku Widget, just put an image into user's home directory before launching the widget. Portrait mode supported... ;)

benny1967

09-06-2009, 07:57 AM

I hardly believe I read through this whole thread now... I never even opened it before, because its title almost seemed like an insult: "Portrait mode use cases" - What??? Being a mobile phone is a portrait mode use case. So what else do you want? Why make it sound like landscape only is the reasonable thing to do and users would have to come up with excuses for portrait?

From what I read now, things look much brighter:

My interpretation now is that Nokia is aware of this being a problem and they are in no way happy with landscape only. - It's just that they didn't manage to make full, system-wide portrait mode happen in this release. Accepted.

I also get the impression that this, along with other issues on the phone-side, is the reason for what some of us called Nokia "downplaying" the N900.

I have to admit that during the last few days, whenever I used my S60 phone, I checked if what I did with the phone would be possible with an N900. Very often, unfortunately, the answer was no. A lot of this has to do with one-thumb-usage.

My 2 cents about a portrait mode keyboard:

I'd rather have it numerical/T9-like than mini-QWERTY. The main reason why I'd want to type in portrait mode at all instead of using the slide out keyboard is that I use only one thumb while I walk. It's much easier to hit the right key on a numeric/T9-keyboard than on a small, iPhone-like QWERTY.

Also, everything that has to do with launching and switching applications should be available from portrait mode, given that in all the one-thumb use cases, I'll start from portrait. (If you could do with landscape and 2 hands to launch an application, you could as well continue using it in landscape...)

Looking forward to step 7 of 9 ...

Capt'n Corrupt

09-06-2009, 09:37 AM

I most like the simple idea of having a *different* desktop entirely for portrait use. This was mentioned by a previous post.

The 'portrait' desktop would have a different customization of widgets, and a different background. Best of all, the widgets would be apps best suited for one-handed use as selected by the user for on-the-go scenarios (eg, large clock on top, message feed in the middle, mp3 player on bottom in portrait vs. RSS feed, photos of mate in landscape, etc).

{:^)~

tangs

09-06-2009, 02:06 PM

Application in portrait mode :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNOHIO8SmI0

Jack6428

09-06-2009, 02:08 PM

Application in portrait mode :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNOHIO8SmI0

im no expert, but i can tell this video is important :D

benny1967

09-06-2009, 02:13 PM

im no expert, but i can tell this video is important :D

Looks like "Nokia 2.0".

Jack6428

09-06-2009, 06:41 PM

cool 2 new vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBKSBAaJpc8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6OnWuZ9mYs

the 1st being more important... he clearly says...that it's not that it couldn't be done (portrait), nor that they wouldn't do it...it's just they thought the features would be better to use on landscape...and if enough people want for eg. the browser in portrait, it could be done...

so, we might get what we want in firmware updates :D

BaKSo

09-06-2009, 07:32 PM

handful

09-06-2009, 11:17 PM

Application in portrait mode :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNOHIO8SmI0

Oops :) Houston we have been uncovered :) Yes, but the video is really about: The EXACTLY same code running on Maemo and Symbian :)

*ps it's Not nokia 2.0. It's a QT experiment to really try to prove (no IFDEFS) that you can indeed have the same same code on 2 platforms. So in the end.. doesn't matter if it's Maemo or Symbian :) good for developers!

:)

ysss

09-06-2009, 11:58 PM

tswindell

09-07-2009, 04:25 AM

For a portrait text input method, could the dialer keypad not be modified to allow for alpha-numeric text entry ala your bog standard mobile phone? That seems to be the main requirement here.

handful

09-07-2009, 09:38 AM

What does 'exact same code running on maemo and symbian' means?
Simply that it doesn't need manual porting work during the build phase, or that they're somehow binary compatible (like OSX with dual intel+ppc binary bundles)??

So no manual intervention (or if def to allow platform specific stuff to be loaded) when compiling.

After that, we will have PySide (QT bindings) working, then we will have exactly the same "binary" running in both platforms.

:)

Capt'n Corrupt

09-07-2009, 09:41 AM

What does 'exact same code running on maemo and symbian' means?
Simply that it doesn't need manual porting work during the build phase, or that they're somehow binary compatible (like OSX with dual intel+ppc binary bundles)??

They could be using that web framework they were going on about some time back.

In a speculative case, the container for running the javascript/html/whatever could be some natively compiled qt client with an exposed API to system resources (files/sound/accelerometer/etc). If you mirror the client on many machines (regardless of the OS), then the same javascript code will run -- exactly how web browsers work today. The benefit is run-anywhere, easy to develop and test code. The cost is app performance (you won't likely see an PSX emu developed this way).

This is WILD speculation (none of it is real information), but it's a reasonable solution with some very large benefits.

}:^/~

handful

09-07-2009, 10:25 AM

They could be using that web framework they were going on about some time back.

In a speculative case, the container for running the javascript/html/whatever could be some natively compiled qt client with an exposed API to system resources (files/sound/accelerometer/etc). If you mirror the client on many machines (regardless of the OS), then the same javascript code will run -- exactly how web browsers work today. The benefit is run-anywhere, easy to develop and test code. The cost is app performance (you won't likely see an PSX emu developed this way).

This is WILD speculation (none of it is real information), but it's a reasonable solution with some very large benefits.

}:^/~

Yes this was wild speculation :)

We are not using any web based stuff. But you pointed out exactly the point : If we go Javascript, python or any other dynamic language you pay the price for performance.

That's why the code is PURE QT, and thus runs on the N97, and the N900 without any modification to the source and no ifdefs.

It would be too simple to use JS on top of QTwebkit :)

The demo is to demonstrate that Nokia is getting there :) real cross platform development :)

BR

Marcelo

ysss

09-07-2009, 10:49 AM

This must be what Eldar found exciting and what he hinted to be announced at the event on the 2nd\3rd Sept. Why didn't Nokia simplify the message of 'cross platform apps\developments' that could really rock the news?

I'm not talking about making baseless hype, but a little factual excitement can't be that bad.

Capt'n Corrupt

09-07-2009, 02:29 PM

texaslabrat

09-07-2009, 02:37 PM

This is very interesting indeed. Is there a wine type layer in between on at least one of the platforms? What is the Symbian executable file format like? Is it somehow compatible with elf (assuming maemo apps are compiled to ELF)?

I'm very curious about this (links would be lovely). From what I understand, unless the apps are being compiled to processor-and-os-independant byte-code (which should be entirely possible), this is a hack at best. If for example the processing architecture changes with natively compiled apps, then you'll have to emulate to run apps which can bear a heavy processing/development cost. I think this is why Google went with java as the platform for android apps (uh, I think). Perhaps there's something I'm missing?

\:^!~

I think you are reading too much into the "exact same code" thing. They mean the exact same source code, not binary executable. Each platform needs an architecture-specific compilation done to get an executable. But in this case, it is just that...a straight compile with no modifications necessary in the source code to accomodate the different platforms. The QT SDK takes care of the underlying details.

In this way, it's similar, yet different from Java. Java bills itself as "write once, run anywhere" when it is more aptly labeled "COMPILE once, run anywhere" due to the production of platform independent bytecode and the presence of platform-specific virtual machines on each target. QT, on the other hand, is more strictly "write once, run anywhere" since you write the code once, but then you compile it for your targets.

johnkzin

09-07-2009, 03:06 PM

Each platform needs an architecture-specific compilation done to get an executable.

That's not completely true. If they have the same CPU family (meaning same instruction set architecture/binary-image), and the same executable file format (ELF, DWARF, etc.), then mostly what you really need from there is compatible library layers. That is, as long as no one is doing things like system() calls (ie. stick to QT calls, and things in the libraries you've provided for compatibility, and you're ok).

This has been done, in the past, to get things like BSD based OSes to run Linux and Solaris binaries. All it takes is: same CPU, support for the executable file format, and a set of compatible libraries. And, really, that's what WINE attempts to do (it's not an emulator, it's cross platform library linking, for the MOST part). WINE just doesn't have a full set of libraries and library definitions from which to build up that environment.

Symbian and Maemo don't have that limitation -- each team can easily talk to the other. And the QT team is in that same community. I'm willing to bet that they have more than enough opportunity to develop a full scope of library definitions for providing a complete common executable environment that can run 1 exact binary image on two OSes.

My main question would be: is it

a Symbian library set (would run on any OMAP+ELF?+Symbian+QT system),
a Linux library set (would run on any OMAP+ELF?+Linux+QT system),
a Maemo library set (like the last one, but requires some Maemo specifics),
pure QT libraries (no Symbian nor Linux/Maemo calls allowed, but would then run on any OMAP+ELF?+QT system), or
a completely different executable environment (that wouldn't run on a straight Symbian+QT environment, nor a straight Linux/Maemo+QT environment, it would require OMAP+ELF?+QT+this-extra-library)

texaslabrat

09-07-2009, 03:13 PM

That's not completely true. If they have the same CPU family (meaning same instruction set architecture/binary-image), and the same executable file format (ELF, DWARF, etc.), then mostly what you really need from there is compatible library layers. That is, as long as no one is doing things like system() calls (ie. stick to QT calls, and things in the libraries you've provided for compatibility, and you're ok).

I guess I should have been more specific in my use of the term "platform". In my world, "platform" necessarily implies hardware architecture unless otherwise specified (with the term "environment" referring the the OS/toolset unless otherwise specified). In the case of existing symbian devices (such as the E71) and the N900 (the comparison for which the demonstration was made), these cases would be different platforms even if they were both running the same OS or not, and thus would need a re-compile in order to fully take advantage to the respective cpu instruction sets (is there a performance-hindered, but compatibility-maximized least common denominator for the ARM series like there is in the intel world by compiling to "target=386"?). That was the point I was trying to make in reference to Cap'nCorrupt's questions/musings regarding an emulation layer to make the applications work cross-platform: They will either work because they can run natively (ie identical binary) due to the same platform or compiled to some least-common-denominator platform, or they will need to be recompiled. There is no vm/bytecode equivalent in the QT world as there is in Java, nor is QT a "just-in-time" language like python...and there's no emulation layer that's acting as glue to create the cross-platform capability. QT is basically a macro-ing engine for C++ if you want to get down to brass tacks...with the SDK handling all the "IFDEF" stuff for you behind the scenes. All the other usual restrictions regaring re-compilation remain the same as they would for a C++ application.

attila77

09-07-2009, 03:30 PM

johnkzin

09-07-2009, 03:41 PM

You'd have to stick to a lowest common denominator (which can be really low, depending on how old Symbian/ARM sets do you want to support) and at that point it's not that attractive anymore (as you loose all the fancy extensions which actually constitute a large part of the improvements).

Right. For the devices given, we're talking about ARMv6 (N97 and E71) vs ARMv7 (N900) instruction sets, right? Hopefully the set of common instructions/features between ARMv6 and ARMv7 isn't too restrictive.

Same with the Symbian in use -- I'd bet it's rather recent. And, while I've never done low level Symbian coding (nor high level, for that matter), it's my understanding that it does a good job of abstracting away specific hardware (peripherals and peripheral configurations, and such), just like *nix platforms tend to do. So, a difference in peripheral modules probably wouldn't keep you from running the same application.

attila77

09-07-2009, 04:20 PM

Right. For the devices given, we're talking about ARMv6 (N97 and E71) vs ARMv7 (N900) instruction sets, right? Hopefully the set of common instructions/features between ARMv6 and ARMv7 isn't too restrictive.

Well, kind of. The problem is that ARM is not as incremental as x86 is (in order to provide minimum silicon that can do the job), so in each generation you have several processors with different feature sets, with a basic common functionality. Even if you restrict yourself to ARMv6 in general, you have to drop VFP, Thumb2 and whatnot as not all ARMv6-es have them (not to mention you're compiling for the wrong pipeline and cache sizes). The point is that on mobile devices overhead directly translates to lower battery life, so, unlike x86, you really want the best optimized code in there for that particular unit.

Capt'n Corrupt

09-07-2009, 10:15 PM

Haha.. I love this community!

In this day and age, I think that bytecode is the way to go. I feel there's a good performance to portability tradeoff.

Considering a long-term play, android, for example has the advantage of quickly being able to jump to many devices with without sacrificing the app library. Not so for apps that require a re-compile, even if it is simple recompile. For each additional piece of hardware, a new compile must be done for each app in the library. Of course, you can always distribute source, but this has it's own set of consequences.

I think an app layer like QT is good for portability but it is old-school-chic. In the age of bytecode interpreters, and more-than-before cpu options, it makes sense to distribute in a write-once/compile-once, run-anywhere manner.

Oh yeah, and portrait orientation rules!

}:^)~

johnkzin

09-07-2009, 10:27 PM

Haha.. I love this community!

In this day and age, I think that bytecode is the way to go. I feel there's a good performance to portability tradeoff.

It depends on how performance intensive the app is.

The good news for byte code is: it's portable to every platform that has the interpreter. And as time moves forward, and CPU's upgrade, it not only retains that application ecosystem, it gets faster at running those apps.

The bad news is: native will always do better. Handheld games that really push the envelope of a given platform will always do better than a bytecode version of the game. You can somewhat mitigate that by doing JIT compiling (or "compile to native at install time"), but not everything with JIT, or bytecode-to-native, does as well as something written to native APIs.

I don't think either strategy will eliminate the other. The best would be a platform that gives developers the ability to pick between bytecode apps, native apps, and hybrid apps. (Android, as far as I recall, only gives you "bytecode" and "hybrid" options, where hybrid means "mostly bytecode, but with some API's to call out optimized native code for some parts of the app)

In that regard, I think Maemo is much better positioned than iPhone-OS-X or Android. The possibility to get a JVM on it is there. The possibility to get Dalvik on it is here (and I wish someone would do both of those). And you've definitely got the ability to do fully native code. I don't see Dalvik for iPhone coming out, nor full JVM for Android (nor a fully native environment for Android) coming out.

qgil

09-08-2009, 12:25 AM

Do you realize post #225 was the last on-topic in this thread?

The discussion about Qt portability is *very* interesting but don't expect anybody finding it under a thread about portrait mode in Maemo 5.

Can you please continue in a new thread? And can admin please move all these posts there? Thank you!

phutterman

09-08-2009, 07:04 AM

Yeah, not to go back on topic or anything...

Anyway, I know this has been said ad nauseum, but just want to remark that I, too, consider a near-universal portrait mode a must. Android -- even from the outset -- did that rather well. But it lacked a text entry mode for portrait, which was really irritating. Sure you could turn it and flip out the keyboard and use two hands -- no doubt about it, that's really easy to do. But It's also pretty easy to reach into your bag and get out your laptop -- but for all of us here, the convenience (and inconveniences) of an N8x0 are worth not having to do that. Especially for a device intended to reach a broader audience -- people who aren't willing to inconvenience themselves for the benefit of their devices -- that's an unacceptable limitation.

At least the iPhone only allows landscape where it has a landscape keyboard. It never fools you by allowing landscape and then not having a way to enter text. I think if the N900 does this, it will be a big mistake. I suppose, then, from the outside, until there's an OSK, only applications that will seldom or never take text input should be portrait enabled, like the media player, phone dialer, etc. And, frankly, that's a shame.

$800+ US ought to buy a whole lot of convenience for the user (especially since nowadays many other higher end smartphones can be readily acquired, albeit not necessarily new, but sans contract obligations for $500 or substantially less).

messus

09-08-2009, 09:36 AM

To defend the asking price of this unit you will need a lot of 3rd party software.

For people to want to develop software they will want to earn money, to earn money they will need a lot of users, to get a lot of users you need a unit lot of people will buy, for lot of people would want to buy the N900 you will need portrait mode..

End of story..

tangs

09-08-2009, 09:39 AM

Coming back to the subject, do you think that will be possible to see one portrait mode release before the end of the year ?

Jack6428

09-08-2009, 10:19 AM

sure, im confident Nokia is thinking about it...as they said, if people will want it really alot, theyll put it in..i mean, they must if they want good sales

christexaport

09-08-2009, 12:29 PM

Now that I've had time to get over the initial lust, I've really assessed my mobile style on the go. I will definitely get the N900 if possible just because of its unprecedented power and versatile package. But the lack of universal automatic screen/UI rotation will severely limit the N900's role in my mobile life.

In my busy and hectic life, I always take time to exercise my 78 lb. pit bull Raki. I don't allow that to stop my productivity, usually keeping my N95 8GB in my right hand for posting to the Symbian-Freak site and forums, checking and updating my MySpace page, checking and responding to email and messages, and listening to the FM radio for sports news simultaneously. My dog's powerful dragging never stops me from carrying on my online errands and tasks.

The N900 will be a great device, but unless they embrace T9, preferably via a hardware keypad in portrait mode (and not the intrusive onscreen T9 option from S60), and in turn automatic screen rotation of the whole UI, its utility for highly active users will be limited.

Nokia seems intent on pushing QWERTY on the smartphones on the high end, and keeping T9 only for midrange devices. This will be a mistake, and ignoring the N95/N82 fans who have waited over 2 years for a suitable hardware upgrade. Many of us FAVOR T9, and Nokia and the community should really think of the direction going forward.