What's the latest on OpenGL(ES) on Maemo5?

[quingu]

Hej,

now that we have seen the swedish n900 hands-on video with the "Bounce" game part, we have proof that the n900 is able to do stunning 3d graphics. But if you search the forum for up-to-date 3d app development, there's virtually nothing there!

I had preordered a Pandora in March but canceled it a few days ago in order to get a n900 in october. I've been watching progress on the pandora project closely. As you might know, they have been quite successful in porting OpenGL games to the platform, most importantly Quake3.
Since the basic hardware of the pandora and the n900 is nearly the same, i've been wondering when the first news of opengl apps ported to the n900 would pop up. But up to now, there doesn't seem to be any port started.

It leaves me a bit worried why there ain't any effort to port high-end opengl software to the n900, despite the platform being so powerful and open to develop for.

There has been some discussion on the opengl vs. opengl-ES porting problem in this thread: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=29085
but the gist of the thread was "let's wait for this guy to improve opengl integration with Hildon desktop".

Please excuse my impatience. I'm just worried that people seem to care a lot more about keyboard layout or frequency bands than the beautiful processing power that this little gem has under the hood, and what could be done with it.

When will we see the new generation of games for Maemo?

[theflew]

Wouldn't the Pandora version also run on the N900? Also since know one outside of Nokia and the NDA people have had them I imagine you're not going to see ports like that until they're in peoples hands.

Pandora has it because they are trying to make a gaming machine. I think the bigger question "Is Pandora going to get support like Maemo?" Nokia has already shown some good 3rd party integration.

[yerga]

Search in Twitter for "N900 Quake".

[attila77]

When will we see the new generation of games for Maemo?

The problem is twofold. First, you don't have shipping devices. There won't be any games until the devices land. Second, serious 3D games require serious effort, very often manageable only in commercial products, and Maemo devices are not (yet!) ready for large scale introduction commercial products (this is where qgil bites my head off, but that's how the commercial SW developer part of me feels :) ). With N900 selling like hotcakes and an efficient and functioning Ovi store for it, the picture might change, but until then, don't expect (too) much (just ports basically).

[quingu]

Search in Twitter for "N900 Quake".

Thanks a ton.

I'm still too much adjusted to the small pandora community. They have one blog, one forum and a few dozen active developers. A few clicks and you are up to date.

n900 community is growing so enormously fast and huge that i'm having trouble keeping up on the interesting stuff. Is there a blog that focuses on n900 games and app development?

[Capt'n Corrupt]

I feel very much the same way. Consider this: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31304 as a potential method to kickstart development in a major way.

}:^|~

[Jaffa]

The problem, as attila77 says, is the lack of real hardware. The SDK doesn't emulate Open GL-ES, so you get the full Open GL of the host computer available. This isn't particularly helpful.

There are also outstanding questions, raised on maemo-developers, about whether you have to stop hildon-desktop, go through hildon-desktop (and suffer a speed penalty) or use something else which will play nicely with Clutter.

Nokia have this information (they must have shared it with Rovio - the developers of Bounce Evolution), but it's not been well communicated to the community yet. Hopefully it will be, and we won't have to waste time re-discovering stuff which is already known.

[mikkov]

Thanks a ton.

I'm still too much adjusted to the small pandora community. They have one blog, one forum and a few dozen active developers. A few clicks and you are up to date.

n900 community is growing so enormously fast and huge that i'm having trouble keeping up on the interesting stuff. Is there a blog that focuses on n900 games and app development?

Where are pandora developers keeping their source code for open source software? For example I haven't seen anything but a youtube video of quake3 running on pandora.

[javispedro]

The problem, as attila77 says, is the lack of real hardware. The SDK doesn't emulate Open GL-ES, so you get the full Open GL of the host computer available. This isn't particularly helpful.

It does. The current FREMANTLE_X86 SDK target contains the official TI OGLESv2 "simulator", and in fact I've got it to run some book examples.
It seems to be a bit outdated, but if you can get an app to work there, supposedly it should work in the real device with minor modifications.

/me waits for the updated version of the Fremantle SDK, though.

[Jaffa]

It does. The current FREMANTLE_X86 SDK target contains the official TI OGLESv2 "simulator", and in fact I've got it to run some book examples.

Fancy publishing them and what you had to do to play nicely with whatever cut-down hildon-desktop is in the SDK?

I was going off the info here: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/46442

[javispedro]

Of course,

http://depot.javispedro.com/oglesv2test/ogltest.png

In Fremantle X86 SDK, you need present /usr/lib/libGLESv2.so and libEGL.so, and /usr/include/EGL & GLES2 .
(I am writing filenames instead of package names because they're not the same even in _ARMEL vs _X86).
Tarball(tarbomb) with binary: ogltest.tar.gz (http://depot.javispedro.com/oglesv2test/ogltest.tar.gz)
Warning: From the tarball, files test.c and esUtil.h are straight from http://www.opengles-book.com , so go buy the book if you find them interesting :)
Also, the binary is x86.

[lcuk]

Of course,

http://depot.javispedro.com/oglesv2test/ogltest.png

In Fremantle X86 SDK, you need present /usr/lib/libGLESv2.so and libEGL.so, and /usr/include/EGL & GLES2 .
ogltest.tar.gz (http://depot.javispedro.com/oglesv2test/ogltest.tar.gz)
Warning: From the tarball, files test.c and esUtil.h are straight from http://www.opengles-book.com , so go buy the book if you find them interesting :)
Also, the binary is x86.


when i compiled tinygl directly on the n810, i was more impressed by seeing 2 rotating boxes than I am about most multi mega polygon game on big pcs.

javispedro, your hacking will take you far :)
ill chip a little in for the book if you need it.

your recent help with liqbase packaging is very much appreciated.

[quingu]

Where are pandora developers keeping their source code for open source software? For example I haven't seen anything but a youtube video of quake3 running on pandora.

Since the pandora isn't released yet (case mould creation will take another 1-2 weeks, then mass production will start), they haven't published that much stuff.

They have a file archive here: http://dl.openhandhelds.org/cgi-bin/pandora.cgi?0,0,0,0,1

Most apps seem to be uploaded with sourcecode, for example http://dl.openhandhelds.org/cgi-bin/pandora.cgi?0,0,0,0,115

Since most of the ports are still WIP, i guess the easiest way of obtaining the source would be asking the devs of that port.
Makes one really appreciate the well-organized maemo garage and file archive.

I mean, kudos to their community, they have come a long way. But to be honest, as much as I anticipated the pandora console - the maemo project suits my needs way better, even if it means i have to spend twice the cash.

[Andre Klapper]

Also see https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4177 : "Nokia will not officially support OpenGL in games".

[mikkov]

Also see https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4177 : "Nokia will not officially support OpenGL in games".

That means (imo) only that Nokia will not support SDL1.3. But SDL1.3 at least compiles fine with GLES support for fremantle. It should also work with no issues, because it works on pandora.

[Bundyo]

Yes, but can SDL 1.3 work beside Clutter or it has to be stopped?

[javispedro]

SDL can (some of the sdl apps I uploaded to fremantle extras already work), the question is of course if OGLESv2 apps can work with the compositor on, at a decent performance.

I think the Bounce game is the answer, since it is after all AFAIK an OpenGL ES 2 game. I remember seeing it being composited, but can't find the video right now. If someone with a device could have a look at what it does... ;)

Also, trying the above demo to see if it works in real device will be good too :)

[Jaffa]

I think the Bounce game is the answer, since it is after all AFAIK an OpenGL ES 2 game. I remember seeing it being composited, but can't find the video right now.

AFAICT, you can have Bounce open alongside multiple apps, and the Ctrl-Backspace shortcut will show you the dashboard with the Bounce thumbnailed window still updating.

That'd suggest to me that the compositor is still running with Bounce, which is a Good Sign.

[Bundyo]

Or... Bounce is using Clutter :)

[javispedro]

Or... Bounce is using Clutter :)

That would be a bit suicidal: http://www.busydoingnothing.co.uk/blog/2008/06/06#AbusingClutter , but hey, who knows :) :p

[pycage]

Remember that the N900 runs a modern X server with compositing and most likely EXA acceleration. Compositing videos and OpenGL is possible with that. On desktop Linux this often still remains a dream because the drivers are not there yet, but the N900 has the appropriate drivers.

OTOH, I doubt that we are going to see as many 3D apps for Maemo as for the iPhone. Even on Android 3D games are rare and often disappointing. The only good 3D game I can remember is Amardillo Roll, which is a tech demo by the CPU maker Qualcomm, and looks very similar to that Bounce game on the N900.

[ArnimS]

The problem, as attila77 says, is the lack of real hardware. The SDK doesn't emulate Open GL-ES, so you get the full Open GL of the host computer available. This isn't particularly helpful.


Perhaps the nested x-server can be compiled with opengl-es rendering in software. Doing this on a multi-core linux system might allow all that rendering to be handled by a seperate cpu core. [edit] Yes i know that sounds terribly slow, but my feeling is it could be quite acceptable at 800x480 if running on its own core.

[qole]

Thanks to quingu for asking this again; I am also still very curious as to how OpenGL-ES will work for games, and what we need to do it.

Quim said the Quake3 port is being done by Maemo devs and will be released at the Summit (1 (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=327581#post327581))(2 (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=327591#post327591)). I'm hoping they'll make the source available and it will be very clear to developers how to make new OpenGL-ES games using their methods. It will also provide a good 3D engine for making new games, as there are lots of games based on the Q3 engine...

[JayBomb999]

I have a couple questions about OpenGL(ES) and its implementation in the UI's composting. How complete is it? Can we expect improvements before release?

My biggest concern about this device (which I have pre-ordered) is that nearly all of the demo videos show significant UI lag, stuttering, and hesitation in my opinion. I've noticed this occasionally with the panoramic desktop and very often with transitions. This is especially obvious to me when transitioning from "the dashboard" to full screen.

I know many people will be quick to say "prototype" and I am really hoping this is correct. I suppose my question really comes down to wondering what more can be done to smooth out the user experience?

When looking at the Palm Pre, iPhone, Zune HD, etc, they have a beautifully fluid transitions and scrolling. Is it unrealistic to expect such a liquid experience with this device given the OpenGL acceleration?

[theflew]

@JayBomb999

I'm not making excuses but there are huge differences with what the Pre, iPhone and Zune are doing compared to the N900.

[javispedro]

Stop complaining and start porting your OpenGL ES games, ladies and gentleman! :)

http://liqbase.net/javispedro_ogltest_20090921_004.jpg

We got OpenGL ES 2 working! :D Check the previous page for a screenshot of this sample in SDK and source code download :)

[JayBomb999]

@JayBomb999

I'm not making excuses but there are huge differences with what the Pre, iPhone and Zune are doing compared to the N900.

OK. Does that mean expectations for smooth transitions and lag-less UI are unrealistic?

[Thesandlord]

From everything I have seen, it is smooth, liquid, and "lag-less"

[qole]

javispedro: how does this perform? The last word that I heard (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=293245#post293245) from the Maemo folks was that yes, OpenGL-ES works, but there's a terrible performance hit (30%). Kimmo Hämäläinen said that he was "working on it".

[lcuk]

qole

i have to say, it renders beautifully.
its really slick and responsive and the colors are bright and vibrant.

as for in motion, i do not know since its a static single triangle.

[qole]

lcuk: hahahahahaha!

A wonderfully slick, responsive, bright vibrant ... triangle.

There's gotta be some sort of GL-ES equivalent of "Gears".

[attila77]

You could copy over the demo from the powervr sdk, I guess, that's fairly simple... Or, if you really want to get crackin' take a look at http://www.imgtec.com/powervr/insider/powervr-demos.asp

[javispedro]

There's gotta be some sort of GL-ES equivalent of "Gears".

There's, of course.


Btw, I've been asked this a few times: the x86 sdk package is called "libgles2-dev", and iirc it's in the tools repo.

But the official Imagination SDK is also now available (for now its the only one allowing you to test ogl es 1.1 apps in x86, but this one seems to have some problems running along the fremantle compositor).