Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900? [Archive] - Page 2 - maemo.org

ajflex

01-26-2010, 07:24 PM

Aigo launches feature-packed N500 Maemo MID

By Jeremy To
Categories: Linux | MID

Makers of a line of mobile internet devices that included the P8860, the first Intel-powered MID to be available worldwide in 2008, Aigo has just launched the N500, which is a bit of a departure in several areas compared to most of its previous MID offerings.

For starters, the device uses an ARM-based 806MHz Marvell PXA310+ processor powering the Maemo OS, rather than an Intel Atom running Moblin. This makes the N500, ironically possessing a very Nokia-esque name, the second non-Nokia device to run Maemo, the first being the very similar Optima OP5-E. Going beyond the capabilities of most other MIDs, Aigo has packed the N500 full of additional functionality creating a really versatile mobile device, including telephone communications and GPS.

The aigo N500's phone interface

The N500 has a 4.3-inch WVGA resistive touch screen, 128MB DDR RAM, 256MB ROM, b/g WiFi, Bluetooth 2.0, 3G (EVDO) voice and data connectivity, GPS, VGA webcam, 3.2MP back facing camera, and a high capacity 2600mAh li-on battery.

Although the specification seems similar to a high-level smartphone, Aigo still classifies the device as a MID due to its larger size and heavier weight of 11.3 ounces. Early reports indicate the device has very good performance and the touch screen is responsive and easy to use with either finger input or the provided stylus. The build quality is also said to be very good, with the white casing having a textured matte finish and a polished metallic border around the edge of the front.

If you haven't noticed, the N500 and Optima OP5-E both possess nearly identical specifications, though I'm uncertain whether this is coincidence or a result of a collaboration between the two companies.

As with the Optima, I think the N500 has a lot of potential with its good hardware specification, myriad features, and the promising Maemo OS. It is on sale in China now for 3999 RMB, which works out to around US$586. Could this be the start of a building wave of non-Nokia Maemo MID devices?

3G SIM card slot and battery compartment

[PConline]

the n900 is more powerful than this phone byfar

ajflex

01-26-2010, 07:26 PM

javispedro
ok brother

ZShakespeare

01-26-2010, 09:26 PM

And seriously, when the N-series VP actually said that there won't be "Maemo 6" for N900...

What's your source on this?

maxximuscool

01-27-2010, 06:07 AM

I have read an interesting annoucement of Nokia from one of the blog regarding the new Nokia Maemo 6 device that will be coming out this 2nd half 2010. Maemo 5 is not even yet refined and the N900 only just came out not long ago and it is already slowly forgotten by Nokia. Like we all are here waiting for Nokia's mercy to provides us the portrait mode UI. But so far no official words from Nokia that portrait will become available anytime soon.

Yet the new QT4.6 UI has been announced that it will be available on the SYMBIAN OS and the MAEMO 6. But nothing heard with MAEMO5. This is upsetting to know that the N900 that only recently released will soon be history.

A good question is will Nokia ever made MAEMO6 available for N900? too few little words heard from the official Nokia.. our hope is getting slimmer everyday.

Maemo5 will soon become history along with it's shell the N900. It's legacy will be rememberred by us.

Rest in pieces my beloved N900. PS. when the next N910 or N902 or what ever it call when it come out.

msa

01-27-2010, 06:15 AM

hm.
i dont think (or rather hope) that the n900 will be forgotten

i mean, how much different can the n9xx be? the n900 has more than enough hardwarepower, so nokia doesnt necessarely need a new platform for maemo6. and nokia knows that we (the community) know that.
the only thing they'll do is disappoint all the n900 users. since this is not the apple-community, i think nokia cant afford doing such a move.

jsomby

01-27-2010, 06:17 AM

jsomby

01-27-2010, 06:20 AM

maxximuscool

01-27-2010, 06:27 AM

Check this first: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kkS2vP4-_4&feature=related Its about QT 4.6 :)

And second, it was already known that next version is coming out in first half of 2010, but for resale in later 2010, maybe 2011 Q1.

yeah i saw that. see my comment at the top? lol. but that is not officially support by Nokia yet. QT4.6 is still in it's beta. Nokia still not in a hurry to put it in use on N900 yet. if Nokia would make maemo6 compatible on N900 then i bet there will be more happy customers and more moneys for them. I would not mind to pay another 50 dollars to get an official upgrade to maemo6 OS on the N900 as long NOKIA make the N900 moving forward.

maxximuscool

01-27-2010, 06:32 AM

And from nokia website:

Nokia announces official Qt port to Maemo 5
Developers will be able to target the Nokia N900 and upcoming Maemo and Symbian devices.

STATUS UPDATE:
19 January 2010 -- Beta now available.
01 December 2009 -- 2nd technology preview now available.
09 October 2009 --Espoo, Finland --Nokia today announced the creation of the official Qt port to Maemo 5 and published an initial Technology Preview release. This port to Maemo 5 means that developers can now use Qt to target the upcoming N900 device and also ensures that applications can be easily ported
to all Qt’s supported platforms including the next Maemo 6 release as well as Symbian and Windows Mobile.

yes you are right. but QT is already ported to N900. The only problem is it is not the QT4.6. I think the version N900 using is QT4. it make a lot of difference if you think of the limitation in this version.

Would be nice to have all QT4.6 integrated into the OS fluently. And QT4.6 can do much more graphic support with hardware rendering. It is nice but when will NOKIA decides to do it?

mrebanza

01-27-2010, 06:42 AM

Check this first: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kkS2vP4-_4&feature=related Its about QT 4.6 :)

And second, it was already known that next version is coming out in first half of 2010, but for resale in later 2010, maybe 2011 Q1.

Oh come on . . . that is too cool . . . . can the N900 really do this . . . and if so please give it too us . . . . what are you waiting for . . . . I will beta test . . . . Do you see the visual effect from vertical to horizontal ????!?!?!?!

The phone looks like a N900 but reads N00?!?!

what gives Nokia???

Does the N900 have the proper hardware to do Landscape to Portrate as shown on the video???!?

pelago

01-27-2010, 06:42 AM

The current version of Qt on N900 is 4.5.something, and I believe 4.6 is coming soon. Out of interest, what was the blog post you mention in your first post in this thread?

maluka

01-27-2010, 06:44 AM

jsomby

01-27-2010, 06:46 AM

Taken again from nokia website:

The Qt port to Maemo 5 is designed specifically to work within the Maemo 5 environment, which will power the upcoming Nokia N900 device. The port itself will be based on Qt’s upcoming version 4.6 and is scheduled for final release in Q1 of 2010.

https://qt.nokia.com/about/nokia-announces-official-qt-port-to-maemo-5/newsitem_view

benny1967

01-27-2010, 06:52 AM

Like we all are here waiting for Nokia's mercy to provides us the portrait mode UI. But so far no official words from Nokia that portrait will become available anytime soon.

IIRC, it was stated clearly and officially that Nokia will not include portrait mode UI for the system UI (=the desktop, the task switcher, the application menu) in Maemo5. No need to wait.

javispedro

01-27-2010, 07:19 AM

What's your source on this?
Me.

I heard him say so along with a few hundred people in Barcelona.

itpastorn

01-27-2010, 07:28 AM

I am sure an intrepid hacker will get everything to work on my n900 if Nokia does not do it themselves. Open source and all that...

bulelet

01-27-2010, 07:30 AM

how narrow minded is the guy that made this thread? n900 has the hardware, all it needs is a software update.

ossipena

01-27-2010, 07:31 AM

who cares? I have a great device

mahousaru

01-27-2010, 07:34 AM

how narrow minded is the guy that made this thread? n900 has the hardware, all it needs is a software update.

Actually doesn't it also depend on how _broad minded_ the devs are? For example if they make the screen capacitive only and fully dependant on a TPM chip... Of course I really hope they don't do something as bad as this!

dantonic

01-27-2010, 08:41 AM

My hope is that nokia will see how popular the N900 is becoming, and realize how important support for this device will be to the future of maemo.
The next device based on the speculation I've read, will be more of a tablet than a phone. Much bigger in size than the N900. The N900 might still appeal to a very large crowd more than step 5, because of its size. other maemo devices are not even on the horizon yet.
In other words step 5 and the N900 might not actually have to compete with each other.
A steady growth in popularity of the N900 might force Nokia to invest more into perfecting the device, and maybe even porting maemo 6 to it.

Really I'm just hoping... Who knows what'll happen.
In the meanwhile I'm certainly enjoying my N900 now!

benny1967

01-27-2010, 08:50 AM

Actually doesn't it also depend on how _broad minded_ the devs are? For example if they make the screen capacitive only and fully dependant on a TPM chip... Of course I really hope they don't do something as bad as this!

I wouldn't call making an OS suitable for capacitive screens only "broad minded"... it's actually very narrow minded.

leetut

01-27-2010, 08:50 AM

salawat

01-27-2010, 08:55 AM

so... there will be more apps produced for the new maemo 6 device than the n900???

benny1967

01-27-2010, 08:56 AM

so... there will be more apps produced for the new maemo 6 device than the n900???

Probably not. Developers will have heard of the Maemo 7 device by then.

smarsh

01-27-2010, 08:59 AM

When buying any electronics you should buy what is the best for you NOW and enjoy it. Prices go down and new models come up all the time. If you are always gonna wait for the next version, you could be waiting for ever!

Absolutely. It's a bit like buying a car. It's depressing to think perhaps that you could have waited for next year's model, but consider you'd have been walking for a whole extra year...

Obsolescence is, however, in the mind of the beholder. My Newton still works (I use it most often as an occasional fax machine). My N810, which seems to have been written off, performs sterling service in many ways. The N900 I have in hand will perform likewise until it dissolves. It does what it does now. Waiting would have meant I walked a lot further this year...

Lacedaemon

01-27-2010, 09:00 AM

And who said you have to buy the Maemo 6 device when it comes out? If you weren't happy with your N900 you could have sold it.
Don't get frustrated by marketing tricks.

pabloniss

01-27-2010, 09:10 AM

Maemo5 will soon become history along with it's shell the N900. It's legacy will be rememberred by us.

I dont think so.. This is not a symbian...

GeneralAntilles

01-27-2010, 09:15 AM

I wouldn't call making an OS suitable for capacitive screens only "broad minded"... it's actually very narrow minded.

I find it interesting to observe the corporate cognitive disconnect that permits Nokia to implement a plan to use their R&D devices to build a strong community around their future flagship platform while simultaneously doing everything they can to kill that community with each successive hardware revision.

Nokia isn't a company so strapped for cash or personnel that it couldn't managed to ship both a capacitive and a resistive device side-by-side. Thus appealing to at least 50% more users.

Nokia's hedging on this platform may yet be the death of it. . . .

GameboyRMH

01-27-2010, 09:17 AM

It would be nice if Maemo 6 would be ported to the N900, especially coming out so soon afterwards, but I'm assuming it's not going to happen...as has been said Nokia has a long history of tying a software release to a hardware release. Besides, you probably won't be missing much. The guys with their N8xxs seem to be getting along just fine.

Kxer

01-27-2010, 09:21 AM

zehjotkah

01-27-2010, 09:28 AM

I wonder why it says N00 as the model number.

all N900 prototypes had N00 as model number...

tissot

01-27-2010, 09:40 AM

Judging from this we might actually get Maemo 6 to N900
"Nokia has a policy on the (former) Internet Tablets to offer an upgrade to the following version of the OS, which has been the case on every device since the original 770 was released (back when it was OS 2007, 2008 etc).

We were told at Nokia World (last September) that this would continue on the N900 and its successors. It seems likely that the next two models (one which is going to be a netbook design) will have Maemo 6, upgradeable to 7. At this point, the N900 would be on 6 and theoretically have no further support.

Having said that, Nokia has usually continued support for longer than you'd expect. I suppose with Apple and Google/Android now offering free upgrades on an ongoing basis, Nokia will find it harder to simply say something is end of life as quickly as they have done before.

I hope this helps!

Regards,

Jonathan Morris
Editor, What Mobile magazine & online"
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=495495&postcount=237

I did know that Maemo 6 and Maemo 5 where in the making parallel and Maemo 6 will be going full Qt like Nokia's whole smartphone portfolio including Symbian^4. Main focus on Maemo 5 will not last even fragtion the time that Qt loving Maemo 6 will that's for sure. So can't say i'm mad to Nokia or anything because i already knew what might happen.
I buy new phone pretty much every 6 months so maybe i shouldn't even be talking here ;)

But hey there's possibility that Maemo 6 really is coming to N900 even if it costs something your device still have more life in it. Looking at the old tablets support with the fraction of the sales that Maemo 5 will probally get i'm sure this community will deliver. So many things yet we don't know so we will see. Plus maemo 5 already got more apps in not long future than the WebOS.

GeneralAntilles

01-27-2010, 09:45 AM

all N900 prototypes had N00 as model number...

Not actually. ;)

zehjotkah

01-27-2010, 09:48 AM

Not actually. ;)

okay... nearly all :D

schettj

01-27-2010, 10:26 AM

I have read an interesting annoucement of Nokia from one of the blog

Please post the URL for this blog.

You need to relax and just enjoy your device :D It's a phone for heaven's sake - it's obsolete the day it's announced.

pycage

01-27-2010, 10:33 AM

it's obsolete the day it's announced.

Quite literally yes. They announced it as step 4 of 5.

jsa

01-27-2010, 10:50 AM

Please post the URL for this blog.

http://www.nokia.com/press/press-releases/showpressrelease?newsid=1358666

The relevant part being a bullet point in Devices & Services operational priorities: "Deliver our first Maemo 6-powered mobile computer, with an iconic user experience, in the second half of 2010"

I might add that "second half" in corporate speak usually means "end of the year" and with the massive undertaking of writing the user facing applications from scratch in Qt/WRT along with other changes to the platform I wouldn't be surprised if the schedule slipped a bit.

For those interested, Nokia capital markets day presentations and software strategy:

http://cmd.nokia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=107224&p=irol-cmd09_presentations

mahousaru

01-27-2010, 10:54 AM

I wouldn't call making an OS suitable for capacitive screens only "broad minded"... it's actually very narrow minded.

I was just pointing out how the OP's post isn't narrow minded as they _might_ support specific hardware only. I also said I hope that it doesn't happen!

NvyUs

01-27-2010, 10:56 AM

as long as there is a user base and community around the n900 it will not be history for a couple years.
as for maemo 6 it will have a longer life and will powering many more devices so most probably will get more support and even OS upgrades.
I'll even pay for new OS

x61

01-27-2010, 10:59 AM

penguinbait

01-27-2010, 11:08 AM

I really hope that means that the n900 is like the n800 and the n910 will have a keyboard.

This thread sure reminds me of the n800 when the n810 was coming out. Although the devices are compatible and Nokia gave all the n800 users a CPU bump with firmware upgrade.

Will the n910 bring a faster clock speed on the n900? My guess is NO, for the next maemo device to have the same CPU specs as the n900 would put if behind before it was even announced. Phones are breaking the 1Ghz barrier these days.

Either way I have seen several places comment that 2010 will be the year of the smartphone, and there are going to be some pretty cool things out by the end of 2010. I wonder what we will be talking about in December.......

Laughingstok

01-27-2010, 11:16 AM

So make it a glorious 6 months then.

Make love to it, take pictures of it, make some "private films" for your enjoyment, then kick it to the curb when the next model comes around. :D

zehjotkah

01-27-2010, 11:23 AM

@ Laughingstok
it's funny to check out the views on your imageshack album...
:D

bonerp

01-27-2010, 11:23 AM

Nokia are pretty good at supporting their phones long term. Look at the Ovi store and still releases for older phones on Symbian. If Nokia forget about the n900 it will loose customers which in its situation (of missing the boat a few times of late), it won't forget about its loyal supporters. The majority of us on here a pleased with the N900 so we 'sell' it to friends and colleagues. Thats a better receommendation than any shop or review will provide.
I know Nokia have sold about 10 N900s just directly off the back of me. How many indirect sales I don't know.
maemo is new (to most). Ignoring its 5 custom base would be suicide.
Enjoy the n900. Lets face it who will keep it for much more than 12 months anyway before you want the latest bit of kit??

WilliePre

01-27-2010, 11:39 AM

who cares? I have a great device

Yes, a great device. And.....it is/was known that Maemo 5 is/was and interim step. There will be (I hope) many more releases of Maemo Vnn, in the future.:D

My only compaint, is that the N900 consumes too much time;). Because there no excuse any more not to check your mail, keep up to date with the blogs, stay abreast with what happing on the maemo talk forum etc. Because its right here in your pocket and not sitting out there somewhere on your desk. The N900 allows you to be "hyper connected" !:D:eek:

Laughingstok

01-27-2010, 11:44 AM

Yes, a great device. And.....it is/was known that Maemo 5 is/was and interim step. There will be (I hope) many more releases of Maemo Vnn, in the future.:D

My only compaint, is that the N900 consumes too much time;). Because there no excuse any more not to check your mail, keep up to date with the blogs, stay abreast with what happing on the maemo talk forum etc. Because its right here in your pocket and not sitting out there somewhere on your desk. The N900 allows you to be "hyper connected" !:D:eek:

Yep. Which is why I don't blog, facebook, twitter, or any of that stuff. Otherwise I'd go crazy.
Strangely though, I get a strange enjoyment out of going offroading/camping out in the middle of nowhere and still being able to poke around on a forum occasionally. :D

Texrat

01-27-2010, 11:46 AM

Too much drama, too little attention paid to details.

attila77

01-27-2010, 11:54 AM

Will the n910 bring a faster clock speed on the n900? My guess is NO, for the next maemo device to have the same CPU specs as the n900 would put if behind before it was even announced. Phones are breaking the 1Ghz barrier these days.

The question is if it actually IS the same CPU like in the case of the N800/N810 was (I don't really think it's the case, if I had to bet on the CPU I'd say it's going to be an OMAP3630 - the timeframe is right for a 45nm CPU and the top 1GHz dog has serious juice/heat implications)

HangLoose

01-27-2010, 12:07 PM

I am not expecting nokia to make M6 compatible with N900. And frankly, I could not care less...

I do care about the long-term vision on how maemo is going to be delivered. The excuse that future devices,M6 for example, cant be upgraded because of this or that does not enter my mind anymore.

If they manage to scare developers one more time, and they are succedding if you see the backlash of the high-profile people here, then I do not see much futurre for Nokia besides going back to selling rubber boots.

HangLoose

01-27-2010, 12:10 PM

Too much drama, too little attention paid to details.

could you point out some of the ddetails you have in mind?

gohan2091

01-27-2010, 12:13 PM

The question is if it actually IS the same CPU like in the case of the N800/N810 was (I don't really think it's the case, if I had to bet on the CPU I'd say it's going to be an OMAP3630 - the timeframe is right for a 45nm CPU and the top 1GHz dog has serious juice/heat implications)

Would a 1GHz CPU enable a smartphone to run HD videos smoothly?

attila77

01-27-2010, 12:32 PM

Would a 1GHz CPU enable a smartphone to run HD videos smoothly?

a) Video playback is done on dedicated video hardware, not the CPU core. Even the 720MHz OMAP3 CPU is capable of HD decoding. On the other hand, even a 1GHz CPU is unable to do proper HD without hardware assistance.

b) It's unclear what video out will the Maemo 6 device have. If it's the same as the N900, HD is pointless as both the screen and video out can only go 480p.

romanianusa

01-27-2010, 12:35 PM

Yes...we are the guinea pigs of Maemo. Rejoy and wag your tails.

x61

01-27-2010, 12:38 PM

This reminds me of when I rash to purchase the N97 off ebay for $350 thinking it was a great deal and that it was the "top of the line" smart phone Nokia was able to produce. Only to find out 15 mins after paying that the device was the Chinese edition. So I emailed the guy to cancel the order. He initially refused to cancel it because he claimed he "had already shipped the item". Mind you, there was nothing on the page that indicated that the phone was a chinese version. So, I told him if he does not cancel the order, I am calling my credit card to dispute the charge. Then he said, "alright, I will cancel it but I have to charge your 15% restocking fee." I told him "over my dead body"... then he said "Ok, but you have to pay the $15+ ebay fees." I said "Nay, I am going to email ebay to explain the problem and if worst comes to worst you'd have to eat that money because you did not mention anywhere on the listening that the device was a chinese version"... Well, I got my money back. FULL refund.

Anyway, I thought to myself, I would probably wait for another year or so, stick around with my N95, to get a good device. 5 weeks later, I heard of the N900. Read the features, and said to myself... "after all, I don't have to wait that long." I was glad I did not buy the N97 but Nokia should give people a chance to show off their new device before they push a superior one in...

Texrat

01-27-2010, 12:38 PM

could you point out some of the ddetails you have in mind?

Others already responded with them near the beginning.

theflew

01-27-2010, 02:09 PM

Personally I would be surprised Maemo 6 wouldn't be on the N900. Given they are porting Qt4.6 to it and will be available Q1 (in beta now). Maemo 6 depends on Qt4.6 and 4.6 has been shown running quite well on the N900. Right now the only things we know the N900 doesn't have that Maemo 6 "will support" is capactive screens with multi-touch and DRM. And I don't even know if the N900 is incapable of supporting DRM or just not support yet. This is a very different situation than the N8X0 to the N900.

As far as processor speed I don't know, but that's more of a function of battery technology than availability of faster processors.

pycage

01-27-2010, 02:16 PM

N900 will be history in 6 months and we were all part of this history-making device. Isn't this just awesome? :)

hectorh82

01-27-2010, 02:22 PM

as many techies know, if the hardware can support the new os you can upgrade... so if the new n000 is the same as the n900 the we will get it.

salawat

01-27-2010, 02:25 PM

attila77

01-27-2010, 02:28 PM

Personally I would be surprised Maemo 6 wouldn't be on the N900. Given they are porting Qt4.6 to it and will be available Q1 (in beta now). Maemo 6 depends on Qt4.6 and 4.6 has been shown running quite well on the N900.

Actually, having a fully functional (and hildonized) Qt 4.6 is an argument toward NOT having Maemo 6 on the N900. Why would you invest the effort to do a Maemo 5 port if you're going to shove Maemo 6 in there after just a few months ?

craftyguy

01-27-2010, 02:33 PM

When buying any electronics you should buy what is the best for you NOW and enjoy it. Prices go down and new models come up all the time. If you are always gonna wait for the next version, you could be waiting for ever!

Typically products aren't replaced/outdated by the manufacturer within 6mo (see iPhones, etc). If this is indeed true, then this N900 in my hands right now will be my first and last Nokia phone. Who wants to own a device that the manufacturer would drop support for within a few months of launching??

theflew

01-27-2010, 02:40 PM

Actually, having a fully functional (and hildonized) Qt 4.6 is an argument toward NOT having Maemo 6 on the N900. Why would you invest the effort to do a Maemo 5 port if you're going to shove Maemo 6 in there after just a few months ?

Because who could ask for a better test bed? Also you would have only one OS out there, instead of Qt and GTK+ based ones. Also explains why Maemo 5 is getting more plumbing fixes instead of UI enhancements. Plumbing is portable between Maemo 5 and 6.

hectorh82

01-27-2010, 03:08 PM

if you read the news.. nokia is leaning towards keeping support for the n900 due to the n97 bombing in the market.. consideringt the n900 was a oops product (was not supposed to be this amazing). sooo with that said i believe that any update verision will come to us

Texrat

01-27-2010, 03:11 PM

if you read the news.. nokia is leaning towards keeping support for the n900 due to the n97 bombing in the market..

Almost like "toss them both out and see what sticks", eh? ;)

NvyUs

01-27-2010, 03:22 PM

a) Video playback is done on dedicated video hardware, not the CPU core. Even the 720MHz OMAP3 CPU is capable of HD decoding. On the other hand, even a 1GHz CPU is unable to do proper HD without hardware assistance.

b) It's unclear what video out will the Maemo 6 device have. If it's the same as the N900, HD is pointless as both the screen and video out can only go 480p.
considering maemo 6 will be for high end flag ships i expect it to have HDMI out and HD recording b/c apparently that will be introduced in symbian^3 which apparently will be priced below maemo 6 on nokia's range.

Ahmed360

01-27-2010, 03:49 PM

omg qt4.6 lookss aweeeeeeesoooooome

jorjino

01-27-2010, 04:24 PM

If Nokia release Maemo 6 version for N900 I am willing to get it, even it is payed.
As Apple and Google are software copanies and Nokia is at this days hardware company for me it make sense nokia to start upgrading OS of his last devices. Because the market demands it. If not - Nokia will lost his market share very quick.

So I think that we will receive Maemo 6 when it is done.

Regards.

mikec

01-27-2010, 04:34 PM

I'm so impressed with Maemo 5 that Maemo 6 will have to be seriously kick *** to make me upgrade.

Just think when Maemo 6 comes out you have a shiny flashy UI but no apps. Your Memo 5 device will have a fully stocked app store, serious polish and reliability, and they would have fixed that niggly thing that you have a gripe with (drop your own personal beef in here).

And I will be able to pick up N900s at 150 quid a pop on ebay because you schmucks have all gone to the next great thing.:D

Why would I upgrade?

nightfire

01-27-2010, 04:37 PM

Considering Maemo is just Linux with X11, a fancy GUI, and a bunch of proprietary apps, porting Maemo 6 to the n900 should be very straightforward. Just copying over the userspace from an n910 (or whatever) should resolve 95% of it. The only differences should be things like kernel support for the video driver (if any), maybe an extra (or different) radio, and a few others odds and ends.

Assuming there are no major roadblocks like binary-only modules that won't link against a kernel that'll run on the n900, I could probably port the OS over in a weekend.

theflew

01-27-2010, 04:43 PM

mikec

01-27-2010, 04:48 PM

1) Because developers can write Qt 4.6 apps now and run on Maemo 5.
2) Maemo 6 can run Gtk+ apps. in the same way Ubuntu can run KDE apps and Kubuntu can run Gnome apps.

Even less reason to upgrade then, as I have Qt4.6 apps on my N900.

maxximuscool

01-27-2010, 05:06 PM

The current version of Qt on N900 is 4.5.something, and I believe 4.6 is coming soon. Out of interest, what was the blog post you mention in your first post in this thread?

Can't remember which one but saw it on google search by accident.
I think this is one of them:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/02/nokia-promises-to-take-symbian-user-interface-to-a-new-level-i/

FYI, I love my N900. I dropped it once and it gave me a heartattack. Luckily it dropped on my foot. So no damage was found. I want to see N900 grow with maemo6 and Hopefully getting all the CANDIES LOVE!

aironeous

01-27-2010, 05:11 PM

There is a resistive multi-touch screen controller chip out now.
http://www.symbian-freak.com/news/010/01/resistive_multi_touch_screen_microcontroller.htm

shadowjk

01-27-2010, 05:59 PM

Anyone actually seen any sensible snapdragon benchmarks? GHz is useless...

For example, the N900 cpu even if it ran at 400MHz like in N810, would still be about twice as fast as the N810 CPU...

maxximuscool

01-27-2010, 06:03 PM

Anyone actually seen any sensible snapdragon benchmarks? GHz is useless...

For example, the N900 cpu even if it ran at 400MHz like in N810, would still be about twice as fast as the N810 CPU...

I think 800Mhz would be the best CPU of mobile device, I remembered that iPhone overclocked it to 800Mhz and then it drain battery like a thirsty person sucking on a juice bottle. But now it currently underclock to 600Mhz to resolve the problem with battery.

As for the multi-touch chip ST32, it's very nice I would like and prefer resistive mult-touch over the Capacitive though.

Tosa

01-28-2010, 02:26 AM

This is going to affect my purchase, n900 will only be launched in South Africa in q2, will keep checking this thread for any developments before i buy something that will be cease to be supported when its finally launched here.

unkno

01-28-2010, 04:06 AM

i dont really care if n900 gets maemo 6 or not, of course it would be nice but not a big problem for me, a big problem for me is whether apps/games will still be produced for the n900 when maemo 6 comes out, if apps stop getting produced for maemo 5 and n900 i think i should sell my n900 before its too late

It is quite obvious that support for Maemo5 will diminish greatly (aside from individual developers from the community) once Maemo6 is released.

Wiener

01-28-2010, 04:41 AM

It is quite obvious that support for Maemo5 will diminish greatly (aside from individual developers from the community) once Maemo6 is released.
.... but if both run Maemo 6?
Then we have a big community .....

jcompagner

01-28-2010, 05:46 AM

if nokia is smart they will bring out maemo 6 first for the N900 so that we will beta test the new os for them, then after the first big upgrade they will launch a new phone with it. So that that phones has a tested (except multi touch) os...

pelago

01-28-2010, 05:56 AM

Me.

I heard him say so along with a few hundred people in Barcelona.

I missed that. Can anyone link to a full quote of this speech?

jcompagner

01-28-2010, 06:21 AM

FYI, I love my N900. I dropped it once and it gave me a heartattack. Luckily it dropped on my foot.

ouchhh.. how is your foot?? ;)

jcompagner

01-28-2010, 06:27 AM

I think 800Mhz would be the best CPU of mobile device, I remembered that iPhone overclocked it to 800Mhz and then it drain battery like a thirsty person sucking on a juice bottle. But now it currently underclock to 600Mhz to resolve the problem with battery.

As for the multi-touch chip ST32, it's very nice I would like and prefer resistive mult-touch over the Capacitive though.

Nokia is always using TI stuff i think (as far as i know of)
current TI stuff are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_OMAP

I dont think they will go to OMAP4 at this time, that would be really cool, because i think dual core would really let a phone fly, now sometimes the cpu is just used completely and switching or the desktop is very laggy, this would be gone in dual core mode.

But they could get a faster OMAP3 now they are using a OMAP3430 (whats the difference between OMAP3420? same for 3630 and 3620). So they could go to the 3440 (65nm) or 3630 or even the 1Ghz 3640 (both 45nm so battery wise better choice)

shadowjk

01-28-2010, 06:35 AM

I've never experienced this laggy desktop switching you speak of..

jcompagner

01-28-2010, 06:39 AM

I've never experienced this laggy desktop switching you speak of..

just run the application manager update, or install a program and when it is installing and after that updating the list. the app manager takes a lot of cpu. If i dont want to wait for that (which happens a lot thats why i want multi taksing) and i press the dashboard button. Then i do really notice that it is really busy with something.

Same for if you really 'hurt' the browser by loading large pages.

sygys

01-28-2010, 08:21 AM

If im right the current n900 CPU can go up to 1 Ghz right? atleast thats what it says on the manufacturer website.

But to go back to the point. Some people keep protecting nokia, saying they need to keep making new devices every day. but look at the iphone! it sure had a couple of upgrades but this proves you dont need to make 1000 of phones to make money! You need 1 phone (like the n900) and give it all the support you possible can to make it perfect! then fill the freaking ovi store with more then 10 apps!! (omg nokia hurry a little and attract great developers!) You can make allot of money if you have a good filled store (apple proven it).

I had the n95 and n96 before this phone. Both of these phone had terrible crap apps in the ovi store. Some of them were prised beyond the 30 dollars. People even who have not bought the n900 are getting pissed off because of this! The only thing nokia wants is making 1000 phones a year. getting money out of the pockets of their customers... more and more people are fed up with this and are leaving to other phones especially the iphone, who does the exact opposite.

I really cant think of why nokia isn't getting all these complaints about us customers. its really like they dont give a $hit.

I really dont care of not getting maemo 6 on the n900. But forgodsake! atleast fill the ovi store and get the freaking maps app to finnaly do turn by turn voice navigation! Why the hell is it still not there??

And why is there still no update of the ovi suite for the n900? Whats wrong with you people!!! i Payed 599 euro's for this device. i needed to even wait 1 months before the ovi store was reachable.

This is not the way you should support your customers.

I you guys may have noticed im very fed up with this! If there wasn't a good community like this there wouldn't have been anything that we could have done with our n900. Only scrolling the internet without a descent java support with stuttering video's. watching custom movies wont work because the lack of a good nokia video encoder. music is a pain in the *** because the widget doesnt work right. The phone function is a pain. mms is not supported. and fmms is crap and a standalone app. Maps is not finished etc. etc. support or not this needed to be fixed on release! Nokia is dumping phones on the market without caring how they work. look at the problems of the n97 and n96 (still a pain).

If in 6 months this phone isnt supported anymore and the maps app stil not finished and ovi store still emty. then this is absolutely my last nokia!

I allready said that after the n96. but had great hopes with this n900. but after reading all this im fed up with nokia.

GeneralAntilles

01-28-2010, 08:58 AM

But they could get a faster OMAP3 now they are using a OMAP3430 (whats the difference between OMAP3420? same for 3630 and 3620).

The OMAP3420 has a smaller framebuffer.

So they could go to the 3440 (65nm) or 3630 or even the 1Ghz 3640 (both 45nm so battery wise better choice)

OMAP3440 and OMAP3640 are off the table, OMAP3630 is likely.

Lord Raiden

01-28-2010, 03:45 PM

im absolutely sure nokia will add some kind of hard ware to their next device just to make sure the n900 cant run maemo6, they have never allowed a symbian device to upgrade to a newer OS, why would they, they need to sell new devices. im more than happy with maemo5 and n900 so its not really an issue to me
Yeah, this is the planned obsolescence that companies force on you these days that drives me nuts. For once I'd like them to just sell me one device, and then encourage me to add options or something to it that generates a micro-revenue stream enough to allow them to NOT forcefully make me upgrade just because my other device is now obsolete. Just provide me with cool stuff to keep my current device going as long as I want, and when I'm ready, have something worth upgrading too. One or two steps worth of improvement does not justify upgrading for me. One or two stories worth of updates or improvements, now that's another story entirely.

hectorh82

01-28-2010, 03:54 PM

Almost like "toss them both out and see what sticks", eh? ;)

actually no lol.. they wanted the n97 to be the flag ship.. but the n900 stole the ship and the flag haha..

c0rt3x

01-28-2010, 04:12 PM

Nokia is always using TI stuff i think (as far as i know of)
current TI stuff are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_OMAP

I dont think they will go to OMAP4 at this time, that would be really cool, because i think dual core would really let a phone fly, now sometimes the cpu is just used completely and switching or the desktop is very laggy, this would be gone in dual core mode.

But they could get a faster OMAP3 now they are using a OMAP3430 (whats the difference between OMAP3420? same for 3630 and 3620). So they could go to the 3440 (65nm) or 3630 or even the 1Ghz 3640 (both 45nm so battery wise better choice)

Here's a pretty complete list of all OMAP microprocessors, but it's in Swedish (can you read Swedish numbers? ;)):
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_OMAP#Processorer

M|ch

01-28-2010, 07:01 PM

nokia would be to stupid not to introduce maemo 6 on N900, specially that all windows mobile , androids and iphones get the updates. if they dont introduce it seriously im not gonna buy any nokia phones anymore, im loyal to nokia. but when i see other companies supporting their product, while nokia keep rushing their products on the market like that , then i have to stop buyin nokia phones, its like when i bought the n96 i was happy with it for a week then they announced n97 WTF, then when n97 was launched good thing i didnt buy it , cuz who bought n97 got screwed, i was happy that i waited for the n900 before realisin this sh*t now.

zfarooq

01-28-2010, 07:11 PM

i think they will m6 will be on n950 keyboardless, thus wont or shudn affect sales too much since keyboard ppl will go for the N900

Texrat

01-28-2010, 07:13 PM

Sigh. ajflex, stop.

It is _already known_ (not a rumor) that the next device will have a capacitive screen and multitouch gimmicks.

And seriously, when the N-series VP actually said that there won't be "Maemo 6" for N900...

Yes there are indicators of a capacitive screen, but can you provide a quote for the other?

russo_br

01-28-2010, 07:22 PM

Alex Atkin UK

01-28-2010, 09:13 PM

I would have to disagree with you there, yes its bad they gave ovi maps free for everyone else except the n900, But lets look at the big picture. Maemo 5 is the best open source os i have seen out so far and to compare it to iphone os because of one missing program isnt at all logical.

Now as it stand sygic are working on turn by turn navigation for the n900 and i have to say that program is looking pretty damn good(Alot better then ovi maps thats for sure).

From nokias point of view the n900 was made so that people like us(small time programers) Dont have to wait for nokia or any other developer to make an application we want as we have the tools to do it oureselves. Thats the number reason why i bought the n900 in the first place, come one the iphone didnt even support mms when it came out and it tooks three years to get it, For the n900 it took just over a month and its getting better and better(thanks frals).

The way i see it im thankful that we get an open source os instead of ovi maps(which isnt all that good if you ask me).

I actually agree with both the above posts.

Yes Nokia did release to N900 to get developers in on the Maemo action, but that is no excuse for the Nokia/Ovi written software to plain suck.

The fact so much is open source makes it even more of a poor excuse, as you would expect that to leave more money to be spent working on the closed-source software rather than less. I get Nokia did actually do a lot of work, much of which was paid for by Nokia yet become open source. But still, for the price you expect this device to at least be somewhat comparable to what went before.

I can live with the half assed media player and most other issues (although the 2G not dropping GPRS when a call comes in is a problem) but I am pissed at the poor Ovi Maps. Its the only really disappointment for me about the N900, as why does my friend with a 5800XM get a feature on his cheapo phone that I do not have on my far more expensive device?

If Nokia do not deliver on the N900 I will have serious second thoughts about buying a Maemo 6 device for fear of them pulling the same tricks again. So please Nokia, we deserve, paid for and expect the N900 to be at least comparable to what your cheaper Symbian phones can do. Its pathetic leaving out features because "they will be in the next device" as every change you make to Maemo 5 should be upwards-compatible with Maemo 6 anyway. Its a Linux device, treat it like one. You can backport pretty much anything on Linux to older versions, no excuses.

DarkPand0r

01-28-2010, 09:22 PM

russo_br

01-28-2010, 09:36 PM

Its been out a month........Why is it that everyone believes that because the iPhone has 2,000,000 applications that every phone should have near that at launch?

Although I can admit it has its flaws and Nokia has made quite a few mistakes....

General complains are not about App availability, but not having Ovi Suite ready after more than a month (even version 2.1 beta doesn't add support N900) is almost as Apple launches an iPhone4 without iTunes compatibility!! The obvious conclusion is that they launched N900 before Nokia was structured to support a non-Symbian platform. Probably a lot of project management faults among the company.... I imagine Maemo development team worked completly isolated from other groups, and now it is also a phone are trying to recover the lost time...

fatalsaint

01-28-2010, 09:41 PM

Its been out a month........Why is it that everyone believes that because the iPhone has 2,000,000 applications that every phone should have near that at launch?

Although I can admit it has its flaws and Nokia has made quite a few mistakes....

What concerns me is not that the app is not available right after the phone comes out... it's that things like this are being marked for harmattan... not fremantle.

That implies to me that this will not be available to the N900 unless M6 comes available to the N900 (of which I have not heard an official word either way. There is another thread about this where someone claims a VP said in Barcelona it would not be.)

The fact that the N900 has been out 2-3 months and is already getting dismissed is what is concerning... not that the app isn't available NOW (at least to me), but that it just might not be EVER.

venusrising

01-28-2010, 10:14 PM

I feel disgusted right now. I spoke to a Supervisor at Nokia in December that assured me that a firmware upgrade to solve things like:
missing MMS
Ability to download all email images as opposed to one by one
would be available at the end of January, today the upper level N900 tech says he has no idea when it will be soon or not until March. The same lack of an answer was given regarding OVI Maps
Essentially he said that since most of their platform is Symbian that they are waiting on Maemo to get the patches fixed etc so they can get OVI Maps and maybe ( a bit maybe) stable N900 MMS working.
Having a new device that is missing such fundamental archaic features like bluetooth keyboard support ect just is lousy (and yes I have tried all the support hacks and mods with no luck so far.)
I think the OVI Map launch just feels like adding insult to injury when a new device, the N900 does not get some type of priority in the support area is bad business. I hope Nokia gets their head out of the sand before they blow this one.

goodfellabk718

01-28-2010, 10:15 PM

curious, any ideas of system specs for "Harmattan"?

DarkPand0r

01-28-2010, 10:33 PM

"Fundamental Archaic Features Like Bluetooth Keyboard Support" - I never knew this was a fundamental feature on mobile phones anymore.

Also, iPhone didn't have MMS for a LONG time......

javispedro

01-28-2010, 10:34 PM

can you provide a quote for the other?

I can't, since AFAIK it was not recorded (and he was answering this topic's question because someone asked him).

craftyguy

01-28-2010, 10:40 PM

Also, iPhone didn't have MMS for a LONG time......

iphone HAD fully working support for itunes syncing, a functional maps program (with navigation added later..that worked on the same device..)
And let's not forget the abundance of android devices on the market NOW that support turn by turn out of the box, and have no problems syncing with applications released by the manufacturers.

My point is that Nokia JUST released this device to the public 1 month ago, touting it as the "future", and now they are saying that standard features of phones/tablets that have been out for at least a year will not be included on the n900 in the near future.
AND to throw salt on the wound, they are supporting these features on phones that are a fraction of the cost of the n900.

90% of all the "information" on these forums is speculation... speculation because Nokia does not seem to like to address any of these issues themselves.

Frank Banul

01-28-2010, 10:45 PM

Wow, I had my N810 for at least 6 months before I started seeing fixed in Fremantle. Fixed in Harmattan indeed. I've had my N900 for a month or so. Oh well, my applications will only run on tablets I own. Just a small part of the ecosystem for sure. But I can't be the only one.

Frank

stopgap

01-28-2010, 10:49 PM

what I dont understand is that there are many owners (including myself) who are disppointed with Nokia, a fraid that N900 will be left aside in favor of a new Maemo 6 device

maybe it is bad management, but I really hope that they are keepng silent to release good news when they got new updates ready... otherwise Nokia will loose a lot of fans/early adopter. This portion of customer may be relative small, but are very important to influence regular users, developing apps and mods, beta testing for free, etc...
Alas this is Nokia's way... they just fail to communicate with customers, it's like some strange self-harm condition they seem to have developed over the last 10 years. Perhaps they are always dreaming away about better past-times when all they had to do was churn out logs and not worry about all this PR/customer relations malarkey. If only they had the ability to whip up a hype a-la Mr Jobs and his latest iPap eh!

jakiman

01-28-2010, 11:02 PM

Okay....

So when is Maemo6 device expected?
Definitely within this year or most likely next year?

I am the type to change mobile phones every 1.5 years to 2 years.
I've had my N900 for 2 months now. So 13 months until I buy another.
If Maemo 6 device is better than N900 which it should be, I'll buy it.

But I would want some more significant updates for it within next 6 months for the N900 to keep it competitive / useful.

twoboxen

01-28-2010, 11:04 PM

"Fundamental Archaic Features Like Bluetooth Keyboard Support" - I never knew this was a fundamental feature on mobile phones anymore.

Also, iPhone didn't have MMS for a LONG time......

Well, fortunately as people on this forum will point out... the n900 is not marketed as a mobile phone. It's an internet tablet (without USB OTG). Or is that defense only valid when it serves Nokia's purpose(s)?

craftyguy

01-28-2010, 11:08 PM

Well, fortunately as people on this forum will point out... the n900 is not marketed as a mobile phone. It's an internet tablet (without USB OTG). Or is that defense only valid when it serves Nokia's purpose(s)?

What android/apple "smartphone" out now is NOT considered an "internet tablet" and phone?? Most "smartphones" out there are better at being an "internet tablet than the N900 is at the moment..

jakiman

01-28-2010, 11:14 PM

"Fundamental Archaic Features Like Bluetooth Keyboard Support" - I never knew this was a fundamental feature on mobile phones anymore.

Also, iPhone didn't have MMS for a LONG time......

I would rather type emails with a bigger bluetooth keyboard if I'm at a hotel checking my work emails.
It's a must for many people who rely on typing things a lot with their phones.

Also, iPhone at least got "official" support for MMS later on.
But on N900, we will never get it as Nokia said it's not planned.

2-3 months into N900, Nokia are already pushing many things to Maemo 6 and abandoning N900 altogether.
Seriously, N900 even as it is now is pretty darn good. But it won't get much better if Nokia is already thinking about the next model.

twoboxen

01-28-2010, 11:31 PM

I just think that it's funny how Nokia treats the Maemo crowd. Nokia's advertising sucks (at least in the US... I can't comment on how it is world-wide), so they rely on word-of-mouth. Who buys phones like the n900? Geeks (mostly). And what how do many normal people decide what phone to get? They ask their geeky friends, family, and coworkers.

Nokia, you're pissing all over your free marketing. Actually, you're pissing all over a lot of your free developer resources, too. Wow, thanks.

You want to remedy it? Treat us as customers you actually respect. Announce things like the n900 will support Maemo 6, n900 will get turn-by-turn in XXXX month, the n900 will get full portrait support in XXXX month, etc. [note: we'll accept all those XXXX features being in Maemo 6, just so long as you tell us that you WILL support it's arrival on the n900 OFFICIALLY.]

Where are those Nokia reps that were all over these forums hyping up the n900 months ago? Why don't they come on here and address some concerns?

nashith

01-29-2010, 12:24 AM

vkv.raju

01-29-2010, 12:41 AM

I am not sure who to point fingers at regarding backward compatibility or backporting. The simple fact is, other operating systems like the Android/iPhone gets the updates which run on older hardware. A few days back I saw a G1 running the latest Eclair. Nokia is probably doing something wrong since I haven't seen Fremantle running on any of the previous NITs. Please don't say it's an Internet Tablet. We are taking about software, software that is open source. Makes you wonder why we don't have a massive following like the Andriod.

Its not about the hardware capabilities or such. Maemo 6 (aka Harmattan) will be fully Qt based (Maemo 5 aka Fremantle is not). It makes sense for Nokia to fully pay their attention and energy towards the Harmattan release for such big and new features. You would not want them to develop code which they wont care after a new release, right. And I am almost sure that Harmattan will be officially released for the N900.

I would even go further saying that once the Qt-based Maps application is ready, even the Symbian phones will get another new update. This is the advantage of going with Qt. You develop only once but deploy on multiple OS's.

pinsh

01-29-2010, 12:47 AM

I have been holding off buying an N900 so far to see how it develops. I was really excited about it but I start to think that it may have been a good thing that I haven't bought one yet..

I see Nokia's dilemma, they only have have so much resources they can/want to commit to Maemo and at this point they don't want to invest too much in developing things for Mameo 5 since they have to take these resources away from Maemo 6 development.

I think it would make a lot of sense for Nokia to officially confirm that Mameo 6 will work on the N900. If they did that I would probably buy one now. If they are planing to release the device (N920?) at the end of the year they pretty much know at this point what hardware they will be using, so they know if the N900 will be able to run Mameo 6. Sure, the Mameo 6 device will have multi touch, but it is not such a huge engineering feat to design the UI framework such that it works with and without multi touch.

Come on Nokia, give the people here (who work tirelessly on improving and marketing your product.. mostly for free) some official information.

rewt

01-29-2010, 01:00 AM

It makes sense for Nokia to fully pay their attention and energy towards the Harmattan release for such big and new features. You would not want them to develop code which they wont care after a new release, right. And I am almost sure that Harmattan will be officially released for the N900.

In the meantime, we have all purchased a half-baked product and are on our own to solve the problems until Harmattan comes along, possibly a year or more later. That is only if Harmattan is even released officially for the N900. Personally, I'm seeing too many will-fix-in-Harmattan decisions to hang around and give it a chance (out of fear it'll be the same situation all over again). I love what Maemo is, but Nokia needs to not keep us in the dark and give us a clue as to what the future holds, if they can't bring the device up to par and/or start fixing more problems today.

qgil

01-29-2010, 02:06 AM

17 posts have been merged from the thread [Under development] Ovi Maps - Turn by Turn Navigation (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=37358)

qgil

01-29-2010, 02:45 AM

Now, let me summarize the situation from a technical point of view (if you are looking for a business point of view you will need to ask a business representative).

- In the Gran Canaria Desktop Summit we announced the Nokia strategy of Maemo and Symbian adopting Qt for their application frameworks in order to provide a common API. One day apps will run in Maemo and Symbian seamlessly or with little porting effort.

- A lot of information was shared in the Maemo Summit about Harmattan / Maemo 6, including OMAP3, OpenGL ES, capacitive screen support and multitouch UI. See http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Summit_2009 and feel free helping me extracting the useful information at http://wiki.maemo.org/Open_development/Maemo_roadmap/Harmattan

- It is also known that the Maemo 6 API will have it's baseline in Qt, with several variables to be defined in the first Harmattan SDK releases: compatibility of plain Qt APIs, selected Qt Mobility APIs, a Web runtime running on top of Qt-WebKit and an additional framework running on top of QGraphicsView.

- There was a timeline announcing a Harmattan alpha SDK release in 1Q2010 and a beta in 2Q2010.

- It is also known that Qt 4.6 is in its way of becoming officially supported in Maemo 5. Of course this Qt release for Maemo comes also with Qt-WebKit, QGraphicsView and the rest of the official Qt release. All these components are already in Extras-devel.

- Then in the Nokia Capital Markets it was announced that a Maemo 6 product will be delivered in 2H2010.

In my opinion all this is actually a lot of information already given about 'the next product' just when 'the current product' is hitting the shelves. Customers always want to know more! - I understand that, but you need to understand that we will keep informing about next releases and products when it's the right time.

And when it's the right time?

- In order to understand the compatibility between Maemo 5 and Maemo 6 at an API level at least a Harmattan alpha release needs to be out. From that point we will be able to discuss how easy/complex is to run/port apps between Maemo 5/6. This topic is specially interesting to developers in order to organize their work.

- In order to understand the compatibility between the N900 and the Maemo 6 product coming later this year such product needs to be announced.

I recommend you to enjoy Maemo 5 and to keep helping improving it (enjoying the act of collaboration as well). It works as advertized and it has plenty of potential - a potential that in big measure depends on yourselves. If you prefer to keep speculating that's fine but it is advisable that at least you enjoy while you are at it. Really, nobody is obliged to come here to suffer. :)

Flandry

01-29-2010, 02:56 AM

t works as advertized

http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/
Integrated A-GPS

Find your position quickly and accurately with the built-in Assisted-GPS receiver. The Nokia N900 works seamlessly with Ovi Maps to give you the quickest available route as you make your way from A to B.

* Assisted-GPS receiver
* Ovi Maps pre-installed

I beg to differ. I'm sorry, but this point on the N900 advertising page was a large reason for my initial interest and is still inaccurate. It's false advertising. Ok, technically there's nothing completely false about that: it's just a huge exaggeration, and fails to mention that "oh, by Ovi Maps, we mean a broken, half-assed version of the program known as Ovi Maps on other phones."

Generally Maemo 5 and the N900 is a good product, but this is one area where "Fixed in Harmattan" is simply not acceptable to me unless Harmattan is coming to the N900.

bandora

01-29-2010, 03:14 AM

http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/

i beg to differ. I'm sorry, but this point on the n900 advertising page was a large reason for my initial interest and is still inaccurate. It's false advertising. Ok, technically there's nothing completely false about that: It's just a huge exaggeration, and fails to mention that "oh, by ovi maps, we mean a broken, half-assed version of the program known as ovi maps on other phones."

generally maemo 5 and the n900 is a good product, but this is one area where "fixed in harmattan" is simply not acceptable to me unless harmattan is coming to the n900.

<capitalization>thank you!!!!!</capitalization>

GeneralAntilles

01-29-2010, 07:28 AM

Yes there are indicators of a capacitive screen, but can you provide a quote for the other?

By "indicators" you mean, of course, the official announcement of support in Harmattan.

As for the quote from BCN, well, it's in Spanish and, no, I don't have a source handy but I was sitting next to Anidel, lcuk and VDVsx and we can all corroborate what we heard. ;)

Now, let me summarize the situation from a technical point of view (if you are looking for a business point of view you will need to ask a business representative).

For me, the biggest issue I have is that the reasoning that's generally been provided for not releasing Maemo 6 on the N900 is, well, bogus. Multitouch is no justification, it's a marketing reason, not a technical one.

Any business justification is, frankly, also pretty bogus. Nokia's continued insistence on jettisoning the majority of their existing customer base with each successive product release (which is a behavior that's, amazingly, getting worse each year and not better) is both short-sighted and an excellent way to counteract whatever community building efforts they've invested by making early developer-oriented releases of their R&D platform. The number of disgruntled 770 owners who will never touch Maemo again is both disheartening and astounding. Nokia's great opportunity to pull in large swaths of the free software community was squandered away by shortsighted "business" decisions. Seeing how much worse that is with the N810 and will be with the N900 is just depressing.

I love this platform and this community, but Nokia's marketing-driven platform decisions with the N900 and its successor are going to make me look elsewhere for my mobile devices in the future.

johnel

01-29-2010, 07:50 AM

1) What Nokia should be doing with maemo is evolving it and ensuring maemo 5 apps will run on maemo 6 without modification.

2) Ensure maemo 6 can run on the n900. QT is just another library. The gtk-based library should be regarded as legacy - and the preferred option to develop to QT. There is no technical reason why multi-touch should inhibit the ability to upgrade an older version of the OS.

3) Nokia will actually increase the volume of applications available for future devices - Apple, Google and Microsoft can do this. If nokia cannot do this then kiss the smartphone/tablet market goodbye.

4) I'm sure this will pee-off developers if they have to re-compile and tweak their software again.

I have just forked out £500 for the n900 is Nokia telling me I have to do this again to get the next OS upgrade. No thank-you I'm off to android if that is the case.

russo_br

01-29-2010, 08:02 AM

http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/

I beg to differ. I'm sorry, but this point on the N900 advertising page was a large reason for my initial interest and is still inaccurate. It's false advertising. Ok, technically there's nothing completely false about that: it's just a huge exaggeration, and fails to mention that "oh, by Ovi Maps, we mean a broken, half-assed version of the program known as Ovi Maps on other phones."

Generally Maemo 5 and the N900 is a good product, but this is one area where "Fixed in Harmattan" is simply not acceptable to me unless Harmattan is coming to the N900.

Couldn't agree more!! GPS navigation was also a decisive feature for me to choose N900 since I was used to it on N95, and it is Nokia's obligation as a supplier to deliver what is declared on the product features. The client is not responsible for extensively research if the official statement "Ovi Maps and A-GPS included" actually is a very deficient GPS app compared to Ovi Maps 3 on Symbian.

At least regarding Ovi Maps, seems it was included intentionally before it was ready, just because GPS navigation is now a must-have feature for most phone consumers, and that would be a total lack of respect for clients...

johnel

01-29-2010, 08:09 AM

I don't expect feature-parity with the Symbian version.

Even if Nokia did a .5 release that enables the free navigation would be enought for the time being.

NvyUs

01-29-2010, 08:13 AM

Yes there are indicators of a capacitive screen, but can you provide a quote for the other?
on the slides from maemo summit it says "multitouch on capacitive displays" and "multi-touch Gestures" on the Maemo 6 UI Framework slide
http://www.allaboutmaemo.com/news/item/10602_Maemo_6_Slides_from_the_Maemo_.php
as for n900 wont get maemo 6 quote there is no info to back that up but i really hope it does not get it.
b/c it wont be able to run same apps as say n910 without extra work to substitute for its short comings e.g no multi touch amongst other things
so it will just go largely ignored by commercial developers porting software from other platforms like from iphone.
and new software developed from scratch will be coded with the weakest link in mind to boost units distributed limiting the innovation on new maemo 6 devices if n900 gets upgraded.

zwer

01-29-2010, 09:43 AM

Couldn't agree more!! GPS navigation was also a decisive feature for me to choose N900 since I was used to it on N95, and it is Nokia's obligation as a supplier to deliver what is declared on the product features. The client is not responsible for extensively research if the official statement "Ovi Maps and A-GPS included" actually is a very deficient GPS app compared to Ovi Maps 3 on Symbian.

You think that's bad? What Nokia did with the N95 in my country after purchasing Navteq was nothing short of criminal. They've advertised the N95 as fully capable GPS navigation device, and that was one of the main reasons I went with Nokia after the debacle that N80 was. I even bought the voice navigation package even tho I didn't really need it. All in all, I gave almost 1000€ to Nokia (well, local retailers did get a good piece of the action) and the device worked as advertised for almost two years, and I couldn't be happier... Then one day I updated the firmware which came with the latest Maps and boom - no more maps for my country (and several surounding ones). And no way to turn back. So, they've wrecked one of the most advertised features of the N95 in my country without breaking a sweat, and even without warning people that they'll loose the feature they've purchased the N95 for if they update it. And it's been a year and a half since then, IIRC, still no maps... At least they've clearly stated that no maps are available for my country on the N900 so it's not that I'm loosing an advertised feature by the omission of the fully featured Ovi Maps...

Now don't get me wrong, N95 was a fantastic device, but that lame move from Nokia have severely shaken my decade-old trust and confidence in the company, and if N900 didn't came along I'd probably have a competitors device in my hands right now, and I wouldn't look back. I'm not sure that Nokia can afford to f-up with the N900, too, at least not from my perspective (as a user, and a developer).

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 10:31 AM

on the slides from maemo summit it says "multitouch on capacitive displays" and "multi-touch Gestures" on the Maemo 6 UI Framework slide
http://www.allaboutmaemo.com/news/item/10602_Maemo_6_Slides_from_the_Maemo_.php
as for n900 wont get maemo 6 quote there is no info to back that up but i really hope it does not get it.
b/c it wont be able to run same apps as say n910 without extra work to substitute for its short comings e.g no multi touch amongst other things
so it will just go largely ignored by commercial developers porting software from other platforms like from iphone.
and new software developed from scratch will be coded with the weakest link in mind to boost units distributed limiting the innovation on new maemo 6 devices if n900 gets upgraded.

I disagree with this on many levels.

The only apps it won't be able to run properly are multi-touch apps.... the entire android line of phones seem to work just fine without it.. and even if Android 2.1+ get it, it's not like all the previous phones suddenly become void.

If M6 were to come to the N900 it is still the same basic framework as M6 for the 910... exactly the same OS with one difference: Driver for the touchscreen. All QT or whatever apps coded for the one will run on the other (assuming an ARMEL device), or PyQt4 or whatever - just some may not be 100% functional without the touchscreen.. and others may not work as well on the 910 without the accuracy of a resistive.

However, what I do think is it is an unbelievably horrific business practice to release a device or phone with the intention of ignoring it and making it obsolete less than 3-4 months after release. That is completely unsatisfactory that some things are marked with "harmattan" as a milestone for fix.. and it NOT coming to the N900. There was simply no reason for the N900 at all if that were to be the case.

johnel

01-29-2010, 10:40 AM

It seems that Nokia are not listening to us!

If they do ignore the n900 then maybe we should organise some kind of letter or petition and send it to Nokia.

I'll have my n900 over the next couple of years( I'm really happy with it) and will keep a very close eye on how Nokia treat the version of maemo 5 and the n900.

If they do consider it obsolete after a few months release and keep bumping fixes to the next version then I will not buy the their next device.

If people feel strongly about how Nokia treat them then the simple answer is don't buy the next maemo-based device

Simple.

chowdahhead

01-29-2010, 11:11 AM

I really don't see why multitouch alone is an exclusion for Maemo6 on the n900. It's no different than remapping mouse gestures or keyboard shortcuts. Why does there have to be only pinch to zoom, and not the spiral zoom as well. We already have multiple ways to zoom in the n900's browser--the volume rocker, the spiral gesture, and the double tap gesture. Maemo 6 could support single- and multi-touch input simultaneously and the user could choose what to use. If the SOC is the same generation, I don't see the utility of manufacturing the n900 and with Maemo5 alongside the next n-series with Maemo6. It would be a waste of resources.

Aelhadidy

01-29-2010, 11:14 AM

After releasing Ovi maps with free navigation for symbian and ignoring maemo 5, I started to worry about N900 to be ignored and left behind even before releasing the next maemo device.
I am very impressed with N900's open nature, promising OS and this active community supporting it, and was intending to buy one, but now I can't decide because my budget is limited and I can't afford buying the next maemo device after a few months from buying N900. So, the device that I will buy will stay with me for more than a year, and I don't want it to be ignored after a couple of months. Can you help me decide? I just want to make sure that N900 will be supported for along time (With firmware updates, new apps, and even installing maemo 6 on it)

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 11:16 AM

I don't see the utility of manufacturing the n900 and with Maemo5 alongside the next n-series with Maemo6. It would be a waste of resources.

You're correct... and the indications so far are that won't be the case for that reason. Maintaining both *is* a waste of resources. That is why things are marked for the next release as a milestone, but not fixed for fremantle.

Thus, if the next maemo is not on the N900 - it becomes obsolete nearly as fast as it hit the market, and everyone that bought one is out the $$. It will become a decayed dinosaur like the N810, not maintained or updated by Nokia - all new devs and customers will get the new device - and it will slowly whither and die off of attrition.

If M6 comes to the N900 this is a non-issue.. as things developed for M6 will still work on the N900. They just need to add a description of "requires multitouch" in their apps if they make use of that feature.

The reverse logic is like saying Windows shouldn't run on computers with intel graphics card or ATI cards, just because some games run better with nvidia cards than ATI cards, and intel cards just suck. Nevermind the fact that some games also run better with ATI cards (resistive touch accuracy).. that's not important.. because all leadership cares about is nvidia (multitouch) specifically!

Makes no sense.

c0rt3x

01-29-2010, 11:18 AM

Time will tell. Past decisions may be changed in the future.

Quite off topic, but the N86 8MP was originally going to have Xenon. This was later changed due the designers' dislike of the look.

pelago

01-29-2010, 11:29 AM

As for the quote from BCN, well, it's in Spanish and, no, I don't have a source handy but I was sitting next to Anidel, lcuk and VDVsx and we can all corroborate what we heard. ;)

Thanks for this. I probably didn't read the Barcelona threads at the time, where the "no Maemo 6 on N900" thing may have been mentioned, but I'm surprised more wasn't made of this as it seems rather a large announcement.

GeneralAntilles

01-29-2010, 11:57 AM

Thanks for this. I probably didn't read the Barcelona threads at the time, where the "no Maemo 6 on N900" thing may have been mentioned, but I'm surprised more wasn't made of this as it seems rather a large announcement.

It wasn't exactly a surprise, just something that was more-or-less finally made official.

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 12:04 PM

I'm going to say yes. Not because of Ovi Maps necessarily but because it was more or less confirmed ('http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=500722#post500722') that Maemo 6 will not be coming to the N900.

Without Maemo 6 the N900 has no future.. since many things are being worked on for maemo 6 and not 5.. even current feature requests or bug reports.

So anyone buying an N900 today is effectively planning to be on their own in a short while.

russo_br

01-29-2010, 12:13 PM

Whatever Nokia decides about supporting N900, its lack of public commitment is just adding doubts for potential buyers like yourself... and worrying current owners like me, who don't want to feel that our money was invested wrongly in one of the most expensive devices on the market and not getting any support from its supplier

hstende

01-29-2010, 12:15 PM

phi

01-29-2010, 12:21 PM

You know, if Nokia truly cared about the community that is helping it develop the Maemo platform, they'd offer a trade-in program.

I'd be willing to trade in the N900 for the Maemo 6 device and pay a nominal fee for the upgrade. I don't want to add *another* internet tablet to my ever growing pile of Nokia devices that can't be upgraded. (Mer doesn't count seeing how slow the dev is going on that)

cashclientel

01-29-2010, 12:22 PM

My thoughts are exactly the same as those posted thus far - in that Maemo 5 was just a 'toe in the water' exercise for Nokia. They're interested when they can stick Maemo on a mass market device and really make some cash from it. I doubt there's much money in N900 sales. The net markup can't be that good and they haven't shifted the number of units required to meet their usual targets for devices.

Support for Maemo 5 is going to dribble on for another few months and will be officially dead by late summer. Nokia haven't invested enough in community resources (like a good website) so the community won't be big enough to take over.

The positive is that most people are on 12-24 month contracts, so when that's up you can get a new phone.

I hate being an early adopter!

bugelrex

01-29-2010, 12:23 PM

I think if the qt-framework will be the same on maemo6 and 5 it will still have a future. Then apps can be developed for both. Maybe some features in maemo6 can be backported to maemo 5, and maybe maemo6 can run on N900, only future will tell.

If Nokia decide to have a much higher 'minimum' spec for Maemo then yes, N900 will be completely ignored. Reasons for minimum higher spec:
- how much more hungry is Qt4.6 for CPU and memory. Nice UI and features are not free
-Competitors have already started higher spec phones. Faster processor, more physical RAM

How 'optimized' is Maemo 6 going to be such that it can run on n900 hardware IF Maemo 6 have higher hardware specs? Optimizing and writing efficient code is tough, extremely tough and requires very experience developers.

.. not to mention to resources Nokia would have to add to back-test M6 on n900. They are already behind the competition and need all resources to focus on M6.

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 12:24 PM

The positive is that most people are on 12-24 month contracts, so when that's up you can get a new phone.

$550 for a new phone every year is certainly not saving anybody any money no matter what TCO model you use...

DaveP1

01-29-2010, 12:24 PM

I just want to make sure that N900 will be supported for along time (With firmware updates, new apps, and even installing maemo 6 on it)

Based entirely on past experience with Nokia's support of previous Internet Tablets, I think you can count on firmware updates until Maemo 5 reaches a stable state. New apps will be available for a time but developers will start to jump on Maemo 6 as it is closer to release. Whether you can Install Maemo 6 on the N900 continues to be a subject of debate. My personal take is that you won't be able to, just as I wasn't able to install Maemo 5 on my Maemo 4 device (the N810).

Slick

01-29-2010, 12:27 PM

I thought when I bought this phone that hings were gonna be different then how they handled the n97, the phone I almost got instead of this one. All of the promotional videos had a feel or air about them that seem to embrace the community. And after the release it was absolutely clear that they hadn't changed at all. n900 owners are just financial funders for maemo 6, and buyer of the maemo 6 device will fund maemo7. I think once they have your money they don't care about supportting your device.

russo_br

01-29-2010, 12:29 PM

Now don't get me wrong, N95 was a fantastic device, but that lame move from Nokia have severely shaken my decade-old trust and confidence in the company, and if N900 didn't came along I'd probably have a competitors device in my hands right now, and I wouldn't look back. I'm not sure that Nokia can afford to f-up with the N900, too, at least not from my perspective (as a user, and a developer).

Didn't know that they did that after acquiring Navtec, and I had maps from both Nokia and Garmin, so it was functional to me. I don't even think N95 was that great, but the information you gave just makes me more afraid about how Nokia will act with N900 customers... The main point of this discussion (on my opinion) is simply that N900 owners or potential buyers want to be sure they are not wasting their money on a short-life device.

And like you said, developers should be concerned as well, since they would not just lost their money to buy a device, but time and investments too.

bugelrex

01-29-2010, 12:36 PM

russo_br

01-29-2010, 12:38 PM

You know, if Nokia truly cared about the community that is helping it develop the Maemo platform, they'd offer a trade-in program.

Never heard of such action from a mobile supplier... I don't think shareholders would approve!! Such move would imply in cutting some heads from Nokia's management...

alexreed88

01-29-2010, 12:39 PM

man honestly i hate hearing about this topic. i think about it every day. the n900 was the first ever phone i spent over 500 on..and many people thought i was crazy..but i felt it was a good investment. i love this phone..but honestly..in like of the "milestone-harmattan" junk..if i could go back in time i would totally tell myself to keep the cliq for a while longer and pass this one up. it even seems like this site is dying a bit..there are rarely any new apps...nothing new on ovi..and nokia NEVER provides any feedback to any of our concerns.

its sad that a person thats (sort of) new to nokia has to learn this tha hard way..im quite sure that if we are screwed over this time that i will never buy another nokia..regardless of how cool maemo 6 looks...

cashclientel

01-29-2010, 12:40 PM

$550 for a new phone every year is certainly not saving anybody any money no matter what TCO model you use...

Well agreed...but...

I'm not sure where you're based, where I am (UK) the phone is free on a £30/month contract for 18 months. This is a fairly typical deal for comparable phones. When you come to renew the contract on month 18 you get another handset free... that's just how it goes. If the thing breaks in that time you just use an old one until your contract is up and you get a new handset.

Contracts without phones have just started appearing, but they aren't really that good of a deal if you buy the handset seperately. I.e. the equivilent data/minutes for £30 with a free N900 is £20... i.e. the N900 'costs' about £150

mrebanza

01-29-2010, 12:40 PM

This guy is very upset about his N97 . . . . . lol . . . . OMG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dngtLBV70kM

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 12:43 PM

@alexreed:

I'd have to agree.. I didn't think finding out M6 wasn't coming to the N900 would prevent me from getting it.. but the more I think on it it just might.

I still believe Maemo is by far the best mobile platform available... but I just can't justify giving half a grand to a company that seems to maintain little continuity, or future for any of the devices they bring out. So far, I have not seen a legitimate reason why the N900 could not run M6. We've already seen some videos of QT4.6 powered interfaces running on N900-like devices.. it's got to be powerful enough to run it. And multi-touch is just a cop out.

Maybe I'll just buy an N900 from someone who is bound to sell it after being screwed.. that way - I'm not directly paying Nokia :(. I fully support their work in the Open Source fields.. but this business model just can't stand when the competitors (here in the US) are supporting their devices for years.

Matan

01-29-2010, 12:45 PM

Support for Maemo 5 is going to dribble on for another few months and will be officially dead by late summer. Nokia haven't invested enough in community resources (like a good website) so the community won't be big enough to take over.

Here you are certainly wrong. Nokia don't even have the decency to announce when they stop supporting a device, so it will not be "officially dead", only "practically dead". Look at the N810 for details.

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 12:45 PM

I'm not sure where you're based, where I am (UK) the phone is free on a £30/month contract for 18 months. This is a fairly typical deal for comparable phones. When you come to renew the contract on month 18 you get another handset free... that's just how it goes. If the thing breaks in that time you just use an old one until your contract is up and you get a new handset.

The N900 is free for you??? Holy **** batman!

I didn't know the N900 was subsidized even in the UK. But I am in the US.. I have no such option.

ZackMorris

01-29-2010, 12:46 PM

I think Nokia's aim with the N900 and Maemo 5 was to see how the techie/geek community would embrace the device. I think it's a safe bet to say that most of us, who aren't students, have better paying jobs than the average consumer, and therefore can afford several high end devices a year. Maemo 5 in a sense is a proving ground for what is going to work when it's sent out to the masses in Maemo 6. It makes logical sense to have compatibility on the N900 to have Maemo 6 because they can have two version of Maemo 6, capacitive and resistive, which I think might be the goal. I think Nokia has been tightlipped about it all, because why let the competition have any sort of information in a cutthroat industry such as this?

craftyguy

01-29-2010, 12:49 PM

Now, let me summarize the situation from a technical point of view (if you are looking for a business point of view you will need to ask a business representative).

Thanks for that explanation. Now let me explain from a CUSTOMER point of view (since I can vote with my wallet by never purchasing another Nokia device again, and influencing my family and peers to do the same)

I bought the N900 1 month ago. After monitoring the bug tracker and the brainstorm(lol..) section of this site, I'm noticing a LOT of issues being pushed off on the NEXT version of maemo, and there IS NO OFFICIAL WORD that maemo 6 will even work on the N900. As a consumer, this sickens me. Technical reasons or not, Nokia ****ed up, and I know I'm not the only consumer of the N900 that is thoroughly upset with Nokia's 1) lack of communication with the customers, 2) focusing bug fixes and features on a totally different OS ONE(1) MONTH AFTER IT IS RELEASED (again that may not even work on N900, but Nokia gives NO peace of mind here!)

As a business professional, I SERIOUSLY question the "do not tell the customer anything!" strategy that Nokia is taking on this issue (and pretty much every issue I can remember with my experience dealing with Nokia and their products). Some companies can be successful in slowly feeding information to customers (Apple), Nokia has demonstrated time and time again that they are doing it totally wrong.

Hey Nokia, quit avoiding the question. Will Maemo 6 run on the N900?

/very disgruntled customer

Rob1n

01-29-2010, 12:49 PM

but this business model just can't stand when the competitors (here in the US) are supporting their devices for years.

Apple are, yes (so far anyway - rumours are this is changing with the next version). Android aren't getting version updates. Not sure about Blackberry or WinMo, and Palm are too recent to know.

alexreed88

01-29-2010, 12:56 PM

cashclientel

01-29-2010, 12:57 PM

Here you are certainly wrong. Nokia don't even have the decency to announce when they stop supporting a device, so it will not be "officially dead", only "practically dead". Look at the N810 for details.

Thanks given for the laugh this gave me.

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 12:59 PM

Apple are, yes (so far anyway - rumours are this is changing with the next version). Android aren't getting version updates. Not sure about Blackberry or WinMo, and Palm are too recent to know.

Eh?

The G1 got from 1.5-1.6, the only reason it's not going to 2.0 is there isn't space in the boot area.. The CLIQ is not getting 2.0 because most of the features added to 2.0 were done the "motorola" way with their BLUR. But both of these devices still get updates if a flaw is found in the kernel, etc.

The Droid should be getting an update to 2.0. Several other lesser-known androids will get it too.

Not to mention, that almost 2 years after the G1 release, I still get new apps on it. If the N900 is surpassed in 6-8 months after release.. there will be no new apps for it. Just like there are no new apps for the N810 really anymore. Even most of the old apps in independent repo's are dead and gone.

So yes.. the G1 is still not yet abandoned - and even if it became obsolete tomorrow lasted longer than what it appears the N900 will last at twice-three times the price.

alexreed88

01-29-2010, 01:02 PM

Eh?

The G1 got from 1.5-1.6, the only reason it's not going to 2.0 is there isn't space in the boot area.. The CLIQ is not getting 2.0 because most of the features added to 2.0 were done the "motorola" way with their BLUR. But both of these devices still get updates if a flaw is found in the kernel, etc.

The Droid should be getting an update to 2.0. Several other lesser-known androids will get it too.

Not to mention, that almost 2 years after the G1 release, I still get new apps on it. If the N900 is surpassed in 6-8 months after release.. there will be no new apps for it. Just like there are no new apps for the N810 really anymore. Even most of the old apps in independent repo's are dead and gone.

So yes.. the G1 is still not yet abandoned - and even if it became obsolete tomorrow lasted longer than what it appears the N900 will last at twice-three times the price.

Motorola recently announced that the cliq is in fact getting 2.1. Also the droid shipped with 2.0, so its update will be to 2.1. It seems that none of the other manufacturers would pull this move.

russo_br

01-29-2010, 01:05 PM

Hey Nokia, quit avoiding the question. Will Maemo 6 run on the N900?

Is that really so difficult to answer??? DIRECT ANSWER FROM AN OFFICIAL SOURCE is just what the majority of the community is demanding, not even have to give us the date...

If Nokia will indeed support Maemo 6 on N900, why keep it a secret??

Pulzar

01-29-2010, 01:09 PM

This release cycle just seems strange to me. I don't think the specs can be that much different from the N900. Probable enhancements for the N910 will just be capacitive screen, more mem and faster cpu in Mhz. In light of these speculations Harmattan in my mind is going to run on the N900.

The poor implementation of Ovi Maps really pisses me too, but realistically I don't need the service critically. Turn by turn navigation is coming but probably not from Nokia first.

The apathy from these forum posts is really contagious and im feeling the depression already and I haven't owned the device even for a week. I really hope we just keep out hopes and spirits high and try to offer our support to those devs that are doing a good work developing apps that we want and giving positive feedback.

Spreading negative and apathic rumors around only makes new users like me feel that I made the wrong decision to invest in only the best device on the market.

Quit the negative rumor spreading and start spreading positive feelings and positive ideas.

Rob1n

01-29-2010, 01:09 PM

Eh?

The G1 got from 1.5-1.6, the only reason it's not going to 2.0 is there isn't space in the boot area.. The CLIQ is not getting 2.0 because most of the features added to 2.0 were done the "motorola" way with their BLUR. But both of these devices still get updates if a flaw is found in the kernel, etc.
Those are minor version updates, not much different than the PR1.0, PR1.1, and forthcoming PR1.2 updates for the N900.

The Droid should also be getting an update to 2.0.
The Droid came with 2.0 didn't it? Again, a minor update to 2.1 is predicted.

Not to mention, that almost 2 years after the G1 release, I still get new apps on it. If the N900 is surpassed in 6-8 months after release.. there will be no new apps for it. Just like there are no new apps for the N810 really anymore. Even most of the old apps in independent repo's are dead and gone.
I still get new apps for my N800. This has nothing to do with support by Nokia/Google though - it's down to the developers. And the G1 release date was Oct 08, so it's not even 1.5 years old yet.

I'm quite willing to admit that Nokia are failing to make the commitment they ought to for longer term support (whether they fail to offer the support will only be seen in time though). To claim that all their competitors are far superior in this matter is way off mark though.

slux

01-29-2010, 01:10 PM

Nokia has certainly gotten things all wrong if they are both dropping package compatibility between different versions and ALSO not providing major release upgrades to older devices. Not caring about binary compatibility works for open source/ free software because everybody can always be running the latest version. Having neither the latest upgrades nor binary compatibility is the most braindead way one can do things. It means a lot of porting between the different devices all the time and zero buildup of available packages.

hectorh82

01-29-2010, 01:15 PM

nope, can't ignore your best phone to date... its like benching your best player and losing.

sgbirch

01-29-2010, 01:17 PM

So yes.. the G1 is still not yet abandoned - and even if it became obsolete tomorrow lasted longer than what it appears the N900 will last at twice-three times the price.

The support for older Android phones is in stark contrast with the Maemo experience. While I love the N900 the lack of Nokia support means that my next phone will have to be Android.

Such a terrible shame Nokia is letting this beautiful architecture die.

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 01:18 PM

Those are minor version updates, not much different than the PR1.0, PR1.1, and forthcoming PR1.2 updates for the N900.

True, but I guess motorola announced an upgrade to 2.1 according to alexreed: that's not a minor update.

The Droid came with 2.0 didn't it? Again, a minor update to 2.1 is predicted.

Yeah I jumped the gun on this one.. I just remember it *was* getting an update and didn't check my versions. This was my bad.

I still get new apps for my N800. This has nothing to do with support by Nokia/Google though - it's down to the developers.
You still get new apps from the official repositories for your N800? How many and how often? This is surprising seeing how upset so many people on here that had their previous tablets are. I know I didn't touch my N810 from around 8 months from when I last flashed diablo... not a single update appeared in my notification area or HAM.

I'm quite willing to admit that Nokia are failing to make the commitment they ought to for longer term support (whether they fail to offer the support will only be seen in time though). To claim that all their competitors are far superior in this matter is way off mark though.

I disagree on the second part.. Android with even their first product of G1 still sells and still maintains the platform. You're right that it's just over a year, the end of this year would mark 2, since android itself has been on the market but the original phone just hasn't "died". Every day I can refresh the App Market and see new things. This is due to the nature of android being so universal.

The longest player in the game is Apple since it was first (for this specific phone market).. and it is still updating their first device.

The N770 has long since stopped receiving official updates, the N810 was released in 07 and stopped receiving even minor revisions within a year, from diablo (in 08). The G1 I believe got some form of update in January of this year, I just can't seem to find the details on it.

So yes.. I do think they are failing when compared to their US competitors.

sgbirch

01-29-2010, 01:30 PM

Can previous tablet owners confirm if Nokia told them in advance they would receive an OS upgrade before it was released?

I have a N800 and upgraded to the N810 when it was released. This is the first I have heard about a discount on the N810.

SD69

01-29-2010, 01:39 PM

If Nokia truly will not to allow M6 on n900, the least they can do is to open up every line of of source code in Maemo 5 (except maybe some internal phone stuff) so developers can change anything and everything themselves... its the least they could do

Given that Nokia hasn't opened any parts of Maemo 4 in the last year even though Maemo 5 won't work on N8x0, I'd say it's unlikely.

attila77

01-29-2010, 01:52 PM

Well, Nokia should've/would've things aside, my pint-of-beer-bet is that Qt 4.6 (a.k.a. PR1.2) *is* the silent official upgrade path for the N900 as theoretically that should mean easy backports from Maemo6 (unless DUI messes things up).

hectorh82

01-29-2010, 01:53 PM

wont die, my guess is whatever they do as far as update or new os, there will be a n900 version.. why cause all the tech in the n900 is new!!! thus meaning the next will most likely have the same tech specs..

mikec

01-29-2010, 02:00 PM

Whoa, never mind Nokia ignoring the N900, you lot have already decided to do so, where do I slit my wrists. :(

Crashdamage

01-29-2010, 02:02 PM

Ok, I gotta say a few things...

1st, the G1 is now only getting minor updates and would probably not get those except it's still on the market. The original iPhone and iPhone 3G get updates becuse it's still on the market (3G anyway) and easy to do. Don't kid yourself that it's because Apple 'cares' about customers molre than Nokia. No doubt the N900 will get at least some support as long as it's sold and reasonable to do so also. When it's only avaiable on Ebay and/or too difficult support for almost any device stops.

2nd, Android OS updates are pretty hit-and-miss, both for users and developers. A lot of stuff can and does break. iPhones have had serious update horrors too, despite the Apple gestapo's iron-fisted control. The OTA update of my N900 went perfectly.

3rd, while sure, a Harmatten upgrade would be nice, I really don't much care. Maemo 5 is nice and will still work fine after Maemo 6 and 7 are out. If I can just get bugfixes and maybe even some updates to the basic apps for the next year or 2 - basically the lifetime of such a device, I'm cool with that.

Happily peckin' away on my N900...

Milhouse

01-29-2010, 02:04 PM

Here we go... deep breath:

Should it ever be confirmed that Harmattan is not going to be made available for the N900 I would urge the Community Council to resign en mass. Everyone should unsubscribe from the mailing lists. Bugzilla accounts should be deleted.

I know for sure that my involvement would end, permanently (some of you may say that's a good thing! ;)) and I would switch to a competing device and very likely never come back to Nokia, ever.

The purpose of filing bugs, and being involved in this community is, if we're honest, mainly selfish as we want to see the products we already own improve. So it really, really sucks to spend all our time finding and filing bugs only to discover that in order to obtain any kind of resolution we need to purchase yet another device costing several hundred pounds/dollars/euros.

And you make this purchase KNOWING that it will result in the same torment: find a bug, file a report, watch it lie dormant for months only to be resolved in a future OS incompatible with your current device. You will not see any benefit* from filing that bug on your current device. Really, why should we bother?

This is NOT how the competition behaves.
This is NOT how the competition treats its loyal customers and community members.
This IS why Nokia must change.

Harmattan must be made available for the N900, forcing owners to buy a new device with each OS release is simply the fastest way to alienate customers. And I can't see content partners being too happy about it either.

* Obviously some bugs will be fixed for the current device, but many others never are, and enhancements are can be forgotten.

mrebanza

01-29-2010, 02:05 PM

Droid gets updates!!!!!

But it is true that the G1 will not get an Android 2.0 because the hardware cant support it supposedly.

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 02:06 PM

3rd, while sure, a Harmatten upgrade would be nice, I really don't much care. Maemo 5 is nice and will still work fine after Maemo 6 and 7 are out. If I can just get bugfixes and maybe even some updates to the basic apps for the next year or 2 - basically the lifetime of such a device, I'm cool with that.

Um.. except for the fact that "bugs" and "feature requests" are getting marked as "fixed in harmatten?"

So... how long exactly do you expect to be getting bugfixes again?

I know I'm being a bit of a naysayar... but I'm pretty annoyed ATM now that I've seen at least some form of an official statement saying there will be no M6 on the N900.

IF the bugs in bugzilla and current feature requests *for* the N900 were being marked as fixed *for the N900* then this would not be an issue.. they still support Maemo 5 and Maemo 6.. while I personally think that's a waste - so be it.

But with things being marked as "milestone: harmattan" and set to "fixed".. that implies to me that it will not be fixed or added to the N900. You have what you've got, be happy with it. I don't like that idea.

And it doesn't matter if apple "cares" for their customers.. we all know they dont.. what matters is, from a consumer perspective, the guy who purchased his iphone 3 years ago still got updated.

hectorh82

01-29-2010, 02:09 PM

all about the hardware.. nokia will not kill a flagship device over night. plus they need to bank off the opps factor (did not expect n900 to take off) and keep it going.. best handset to date..

draco.bdn

01-29-2010, 02:10 PM

And it doesn't matter if apple "cares" for their customers.. we all know they dont.. what matters is, from a consumer perspective, the guy who purchased his iphone 3 years ago still got updated.

It would be very short sighted not to upgrade the firmware on the iPhone. The users can still buy things in AppStore and iTunes Music Store.
New function weren't implemented and some software is not running on the iPhone 1G or 2G the way it meant to be.

Hopefully Nokia will do this the same way with the N900 but on the other side I doubt. Would be a pleasant surprise ;)

theflew

01-29-2010, 02:11 PM

Technically it doesn't matter in Maemo 5 is going to be upgraded to Maemo 6 given we know Qt 4.6 is being ported to Maemo 5 (available Q1 2010, in beta now). that means applications from Maemo 6 should run on Maemo 5 assuming they don't require hardware specific to the Maemo 6 device.

Milhouse

01-29-2010, 02:11 PM

nope, can't ignore your best phone to date... its like benching your best player and losing.

Rafa Benitez* is running Nokia? That explains it all! :)

* Rubbish football manager of Liverpool FC

mikec

01-29-2010, 02:13 PM

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 02:13 PM

It would be very short sighted not to upgrade the firmware on the iPhone. The users can still buy things in AppStore and iTunes Music Store.
New function weren't implemented and some software is not running on the iPhone 1G or 2G the way it meant to be.

Hopefully Nokia will do this the same way with the N900 but on the other side I doubt. Would be a pleasant surprise ;)

Correct, not everything works.. but it wasn't abandoned either.

What irks me, as I said, is combination of current problems with the devices, and feature requests for this device (which it's capable of), being marked as fixed in harmattan - and then Nokia saying Harmattan will not be on the N900. Especially this soon after the devices launch.

When you add these two together you get an abandoned device. Certain bug requests not being fixed, and many feature enhancements will not be added. It's a disturbing thought, IMHO.

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 02:15 PM

(Apologies in advance to those that did not buy on contract).

Or those that could not... since the N900 is not available to any US carrier subsidized (that i am aware).

DaveP1

01-29-2010, 02:17 PM

nope, can't ignore your best phone to date... its like benching your best player and losing.

Or like trading your best receiver, T.O., and improving?

Actually that might not be a bad analogy. T.O. (Terrell Owens, for that part the world that follows a different form of football) is a very gifted player who would be a very desirable player in a single player sport. Unfortunately he plays a team sport and he doesn't work well with the rest of the team.

Nokia, Maemo, and the N900 seem, in a sense, to be like this. Nokia has no overarching team concept when it comes to hardware. One could not upgrade a Nokia device and expect to get the same functionality plus more. Instead, some capabilities will be new, some old capabilities will work better, but some old capabilities may have vanished. Maemo bounces from being Nokia's star to being Nokia's unwanted step-child depending on which company representative is talking to which audience. Then, when you get down to specific implementations, the N900's various apps don't seem to form a team, just a group of players who often seem to be going in opposite directions.

Looking at this jumble is one thing that can make a lesser device like the iPhone attractive. Devices with equivalent or better hardware running Android are even more attractive. And the "we're more open" argument is running thin.

Milhouse

01-29-2010, 02:22 PM

Heres the thing.

I'm paying £30 a month to Vfone for the pleasure of using my N900 NOW. In 18 Months I expect to b paying £25 a month. And they will throw in an N9XXX or what ever it is.

THATS THE DIFF between the N770,N800,N810.

So while it might have pissed me off when I had those devices, strangely enough I'm pretty easy with the whole situation. Do I regret getting the N900, nope still cant see an alternative out there for my needs.

(Apologies in advance to those that did not buy on contract).

I don't get it - what difference does it make if you bought your phone with an interest free loan (aka contract) or purchased it outright/SIM free? You're still stuck with a super phone that most likely will not receive updates after at most 12 months, while the competition are still supporting devices from 3 years ago.

The competition entice customers to upgrade by offering improved hardware but still supporting old customers, while Nokia "entice" customers to upgrade by shutting down firmware updates!

Phones aren't cheap, and there is no respect for loyalty from Nokia. Times are changing, Nokia should too. :)

casper27

01-29-2010, 02:27 PM

Millhouse
Should it ever be confirmed that Harmattan is not going to be made available for the N900 I would urge the Community Council to resign en mass. Everyone should unsubscribe from the mailing lists. Bugzilla accounts should be deleted.

The purpose of filing bugs, and being involved in this community is, if we're honest, mainly selfish as we want to see the products we already own improve. So it really, really sucks to spend all our time finding and filing bugs only to discover that in order to obtain any kind of resolution we need to purchase yet another device costing several hundred pounds/dollars/euros.

Harmattan must be made available for the N900, forcing owners to buy a new device with each OS release is simply the fastest way to alienate customers. And I can't see content partners being too happy about it either.

* Obviously some bugs will be fixed for the current device, but many others never are, and enhancements are can be forgotten.

How about OUR elected council members stand up and make our statement heard. I think the only thing Nokia are going to reply to is the patter of feet leaving the Maemo Open source door. If ,and that is a big if, Nokia eventually officially announce non compatibility for Maemo 6 and the N900 we as their Beta Testers should show them we will not stand for it. Why should we be non paid, non appreciated, non informed and non listened to Bug fixers, App writers and indeed customer relation managers. The majority of new personel on here from Sep last year onwards only did so after hearing about the Flagship device Nokia was releasing. The amount of times a thread has been answered with the time old "Next firmware release", "Be patient and Nokia will announce" and the best one "It'll be fixed in Harmattan". This device cost alot of money and indeed will be some peoples main phone for the next 2 years. To stop supporting it after only 1(ONE) month is not only rediculous but god damn insulting.

Anyway just my 2 cents....

draco.bdn

01-29-2010, 02:29 PM

Correct, not everything works.. but it wasn't abandoned either.

What irks me, as I said, is combination of current problems with the devices, and feature requests for this device (which it's capable of), being marked as fixed in harmattan - and then Nokia saying Harmattan will not be on the N900. Especially this soon after the devices launch.

When you add these two together you get an abandoned device. Certain bug requests not being fixed, and many feature enhancements will not be added. It's a disturbing thought, IMHO.

Than just give the N900 a runaway and tell Nokia what you're thinking about their behaviour.
I like the N900 very much, but if they don't support a 600€ device, I wont buy a device ever again ;)

zfarooq

01-29-2010, 02:31 PM

has there been any offician confirmation that no M6 on n900?

havent previous versions recieved updates

Crashdamage

01-29-2010, 02:43 PM

To those worried about long-term support...then just don't get a N900. It's like linux distros. Do I load Fedora/Unbuntu and get the latest and greatest cutting-edge stuff or go for RedHat Enterprise/Debian Stable for 7-year long-term support? Ya can't have it both ways. In this case, the N900 is the cutting-edge choice.

In the tech world there's always something newer and shinier just around the corner that your present PC/TV/phone/microwave/vacumn cleaner can't use. So wait for Maemo 6 or 7 or Android 3 or 4. Wait 'til Apple guarantees 7 year iPhone support. Use a rotary phone. They still work.

I just know this N900 seriously kicks the *** of the G1 it replaced. Whatever bugs are in Maemo 5 aren't bothering me. Everything I struggled to do on the G1 I blast right through with the N900 now. This thing works great for me. If it doesn't get another bug fixed from now on, I'm still glad I ditched Android and bought a N900. And that's the bottom line for me.

Sheon

01-29-2010, 02:44 PM

/sigh this pose is making me regret buying my n900 now -_-

russo_br

01-29-2010, 02:46 PM

I also think that the (lots of) complains on talk.maemo.org are having little effect, not to say no effect at all.

The complains must be done directly to Nokia employees who have the authority to give us any definitive answer, and ultimately write to Mobile Review sites and similar media channels to get bad publicity. Sure this would be the last resource since it could hurt Maemo future generally, but as a customer I won't accept to be left with a 2-months old phone already deprecated, and one that I paid big bucks for.

Hotshot

01-29-2010, 02:47 PM

All I got to say is i left HTC/winmo for this? I was tired of htc hardware short coming with lack of proper drivers for there phones and low specs and even more tired of winmo slow to release a proper rom to the carriers so they can release it to the masses. And when custom roms making your phone better but stop simple but needed features thats not cutting. So I set out to find a new phone. Iphone was out of the question the itouch is all I needed from apple. The palm pre didnt fit my needs and design was not to my liking. The blackberry "paper os" couldn't do much for my needs either. And I just wasn't ready to give google my "soul" just to use one of there phones even though they have pretty okay phones. All the while hunting for a phone all I can remember is how great my nokia n95 8gb was. Than I stumbled across the nokia N900 and was blown away had to have it. Did my research and made the choice to buy it outright(like I do all my phones) and was amazed by it but hearing nokia might not support the device much longer is sadden. They not treating the n900 as a flagship phone should be treated. Nokia really have a gem on they hands just needs to be polished like an gem to truely shine.

Texrat

01-29-2010, 02:48 PM

By "indicators" you mean, of course, the official announcement of support in Harmattan.

I was in a hurry, didn't recall the original details, and erred to the side of caution.

craftyguy

01-29-2010, 02:51 PM

The complains must be done directly to Nokia employees who have the authority to give us any definitive answer

I have never been successful in getting anyone than a level 1 (or 2 if I'm lucky) tech support monkey at Nokia. If anyone knows the contact information of someone who matters at this company, please PLEASE post it. It is not good business practice to NOT listen to customers, so I don't think they would mind receiving our feedback...

CoffeeNAS

01-29-2010, 02:52 PM

If this is the way it is going to be, I'll just jump ship to a phone with Android or Windows Mobile 7. A great community can only do so much when the parent company more or less disowns their own products like Nokia is doing.

johnel

01-29-2010, 02:54 PM

Maybe if we generate enough noise then Nokia will have to listen.

Perhaps if the press, blogs and more importantly majority shareholders were told how we feel then Nokia's policy will have to change.

It is not enough for a company to just sell mobile phones anymore. The market has changed where people expect mobile applications and be able to still use them when they upgrade to a new phone.

The idea of "mothballing" a device that is barely 2 months old is a very short term goal. Nokia should have a long-term strategy and actually grow the mobile applications aspect of the market. The only way to do this is to allow an OS to exist on different devices and keep compatibility a priority.

I'm amazed of the arrogance of a company that thinks by managing bugs in the current version of the OS and then saying they will be fixed in the next version(only available with a new device).

If this is the case there will be no chance I will buy the next maemo device. I strongly suggest other users do the same.

If you buy the next maemo device knowing the way Nokia if behaved so far then more fool you.

attila77

01-29-2010, 02:54 PM

Eh?

The G1 got from 1.5-1.6, the only reason it's not going to 2.0 is there isn't space in the boot area..

Now, the question is why is that a good excuse for the G1, while there is a chance that will be exactly the same (speculative) reason the N900 is not getting Maemo 6 ? Or will people suddenly say 'ah ok, flash space, then I'm cool with the N900 not being upgraded' ? There are three things that can kill Maemo 6 on the N900 - NAND/opt/flash space, RAM size and input UI differences. While you can go and argue about UI, RAM and flash size are a given, and there is no point of M6 on the N900 if it sucks because of these two. It would be even worse than the current situation to say 'hey fellas, don't worry, you'll have M6 on N900 !', only for the users to discover after an upgrade from M5 that it works like Vista on an early eeePC.

slux

01-29-2010, 02:55 PM

To those worried about long-term support...then just don't get a N900. It's like linux distros. Do I load Fedora/Unbuntu and get the latest and greatest cutting-edge stuff or go for RedHat Enterprise/Debian Stable for 7-year long-term support? Ya can't have it both ways. In this case, the N900 is the cutting-edge choice.

Sorry but it's not at all like Linux distros. With Linux distros losing support is not at all such a big issue because everybody always has the right to upgrade to the next version, no cash required.

With Linux distros you can still today probably load the latest release of pretty much any one of them on a computer that has a Pentium processor. Some go even further than that...

Still, I guess this upgrade policy Nokia seems to have is a result of being stuck in the era where phones weren't really yet upgradeable and didn't resemble "real" computers. They need to wake up.

I wish Maemo really was more like a Linux distro, that way we'd have no worries about getting the latest. Maybe we won't now either if Mer develops well but who knows...

schettj

01-29-2010, 02:56 PM

Jumping ship to WinMo... that's funny!

You do know that you get zero long term support there, right?

casper27

01-29-2010, 02:57 PM

Maybe if we generate enough noise then Nokia will have to listen.

Is that not what our elected council members are for????
Come on guys a bit more noise from the chosen few might make a difference!!

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 02:59 PM

There are three things that can kill Maemo 6 on the N900 - NAND/opt/flash space, RAM size and input UI differences.

I have heard nobody say this is the reason there is no Maemo 6. Also, a repartition of the internal space (considering it comes with a 32gb internal card) would negate this. It might run slower, we won't know till it's there.

So, if they were interested in supporting it, then they simply wouldn't release it in an SSU fashion. They would release it as a complete reflash, which is perfectly acceptable.

And UI input differences I just don't see it.. they can't possibly make such heavy use of multi-touch that it renders the UI unusable without it. That would just be insane.. I mean the phone CURRENTLY is hard enough to use with one hand - if nearly every gesture, including clicking a menu button, required two hands and multiple touches... that would just be sad.

schettj

01-29-2010, 03:02 PM

Still, I guess this upgrade policy Nokia seems to have is a result of being stuck in the era where phones weren't really yet upgradeable and didn't resemble "real" computers. They need to wake up.

It's *still* a handset. The lifespan is 18 months. Or less. Much less right now since hardware in this space is changing very quickly, and especially in the maemo + hardware space since both are evolving very quickly.

If you want a (possibly) longer-term supported device, waiting for whatever is after the n900 isn't a bad choice. Like the first iphone was never going to be able to be a 3g device, the n900 isn't ever going to be everything the next device is.

Then again, that's always true. The G1 isn't the Nexus One, nor will it ever be. After 18 months, the G1 is looking pretty dated.

cBeam

01-29-2010, 03:05 PM

Texrat

01-29-2010, 03:07 PM

I agree that this is certainly an important issue for the council to address, and I have introduced it as an action item. More as it manifests.

craftyguy

01-29-2010, 03:08 PM

It's *still* a handset. The lifespan is 18 months. Or less. Much less right now since hardware in this space is changing very quickly, and especially in the maemo + hardware space since both are evolving very quickly.

If you want a (possibly) longer-term supported device, waiting for whatever is after the n900 isn't a bad choice. Like the first iphone was never going to be able to be a 3g device, the n900 isn't ever going to be everything the next device is.

Then again, that's always true. The G1 isn't the Nexus One, nor will it ever be. After 18 months, the G1 is looking pretty dated.

The N900 has only been shipping LESS THAN TWO MONTHS and we're already seeing bug fixes being deferred to the next Maemo version.
Last time I checked, 2 mo < 18 mo.

Having just purchased an N900, and taking into account my above statement, why would I want to purchase a new Nokia device that (possibly..lol) be supported long-term?? Nokia has done NOTHING to instill confidence in me about their product and future plans. I openly invite them to do so.

mikec

01-29-2010, 03:20 PM

erm a firmware release just 2 weeks ago if I remember.

schettj

01-29-2010, 03:27 PM

Nokia has done NOTHING to instill confidence in me about their product and future plans. I openly invite them to do so.There were two firmware updates released so far. There will be more of them. Why are you so convinced that there won't be.

It's an open platform - it will continue to be one. The device will work just as well in the future.

I mean, why buy anything? It will always be replaced by future products.

God's Toy

01-29-2010, 03:29 PM

Yep reading this thread can bring you down alright... but not me! I still love this device and was planning to changer it next year/when the next one comes out anyway so I will just get on with enjoying this here and now.
To me nothing comes close to it and that makes me happy.

HangLoose

01-29-2010, 03:34 PM

I might get stoned to death here by playing the judas but here it goes...

I think that Nokia since the beginning hinted that N900 wont support M6. I think that if people bought the device knowing that it "is step 4 of 5" and knowing how Nokia is and still come here to complain it is worthless... I bought N900 and I am really really satifsfied with it.

Having said that, I hope/wish that the "final" step,M6, brings the much wanted OS updates. If not, this was my last Maemo device. I trully hope Nokia is keeping and eye in this.

Marketing a device as a mobile computer is a heavy statement. And I expect that with M6 I can get OTA updates,paid or not, of M7.

Rushmore

01-29-2010, 03:37 PM

IF correct:

If Nokia does not support Maemo 5, they can forget a lot of future business by N900 owners. People that have a love crush with Nokia do understand it is not reciprocated by Nokia- don't they?

Keep hearing, "Just wait, there will be TONS of apps". Not seeing them and there is very low commercial support.

I use mine as a netbook and media player, so no problem here, but people that use this as their main device should be pi55ed if correct. I will be happy with efforts being done by the community, but I may be in the minority for being happy with that.

Seems silly to create an OS just for one device. I expected to be able to update to Maemo 6 as a result of this perhaps poor assumption.

ZackMorris

01-29-2010, 03:38 PM

Whoa, this could turn into a Nokia marketing nightmare pretty soon.

- N900 has bugs and fixes are marked "Maemo 6"
- There is no word from Nokia if N900 will run Maemo 6.
- Nokia announces free turn-by-turn Nav for their S60 and S40 smart-phones
- But Nokia does not mention the N900, just says it's not on the roadmap and N900 users should not hold their breath.
- And there is still no official word from Nokia regarding N900 support, if Maemo 6 will run on it and if so, when.

Does anyone have the phone # of the N900 product manager? It seems to me they need to start to communicate, otherwise we will see a lot of vocal and frustrated N900 users on the tech blogs.

And it's just not necessary. Nokia could do so many things, especially communicate!

Don't know where misinformation like this is coming from.

http://noknok.tv/2010/01/22/free-ovi-maps-3-03-on-the-nokia-n97-and-nokia-n900/

Seriously this thread is like watching a bunch of emo kids at a death cab for cutie concert. Yes the N900 will become outdated, Yes the new Maemo 6 device will be better, Yes even the Mona Lisa is falling apart....but has your N900 lost any sort of functionality in the meantime? Do you really think your phone will be the rage 12 months+ past purchase? Do you think there will zero compatibility between Maemo 6 and Maemo 5, all this lament seems to come from the fact that yes, what was once new, will one day become old. Stop being so damn emo and enjoy the best mobile device on the market right now and for the immediate future(ie 3-6 months). If the new one comes out and has more bells and whistles that you really desparately need, go get it. I came from a N82 and I was thinking for a cellphone I really don't need much more, I love the camera, and I can function with the mobile web fine if need be. However I did own a N810 and loved it, and was interested to get my hands on the N900 and I'm glad I did, the contacts integration alone won me over.

FFS stop feeling like a petulant 14 yr old boy with a new stepmom that gets more of your dad's attention, and be thankful for the greatness in your hands right now.

alexreed88

01-29-2010, 03:39 PM

I agree that this is certainly an important issue for the council to address, and I have introduced it as an action item. More as it manifests.

Best post on this thread.

And to anybody that thinks were complaining, whining and being greedy, that is not the case. It is seriously a problem when you buy a device brand new a month or two before and you see enhancements and bugfixes as "fixed in harmattan" similar to what happened to the NITs without gprs hardware.

Don't know where misinformation like this is coming from.

http://noknok.tv/2010/01/22/free-ovi-maps-3-03-on-the-nokia-n97-and-nokia-n900/

Seriously this thread is like watching a bunch of emo kids at a death cab for cutie concert. Yes the N900 will become outdated, Yes the new Maemo 6 device will be better, Yes even the Mona Lisa is falling apart....but has your N900 lost any sort of functionality in the meantime? Do you really think your phone will be the rage 12 months+ past purchase? Do you think there will zero compatibility between Maemo 6 and Maemo 5, all this lament seems to come from the fact that yes, what was once new, will one day become old. Stop being so damn emo and enjoy the best mobile device on the market right now and for the immediate future(ie 3-6 months). If the new one comes out and has more bells and whistles that you really desparately need, go get it. I came from a N82 and I was thinking for a cellphone I really don't need much more, I love the camera, and I can function with the mobile web fine if need be. However I did own a N810 and loved it, and was interested to get my hands on the N900 and I'm glad I did, the contacts integration alone won me over.

FFS stop feeling like a petulant 14 yr old boy with a new stepmom that gets more of your dad's attention, and be thankful for the greatness in your hands right now.

Apparently you arent quite getting the point. Of course the n900 will become outdated..its just alarming at the rate its going. At this rate, if maemo 6 comes out this fall, maemo 5 will stop receiving any enhancements by this summer.

penguinbait

01-29-2010, 03:39 PM

Millhouse

How about OUR elected council members stand up and make our statement heard. I think the only thing Nokia are going to reply to is the patter of feet leaving the Maemo Open source door. If ,and that is a big if, Nokia eventually officially announce non compatibility for Maemo 6 and the N900 we as their Beta Testers should show them we will not stand for it. Why should we be non paid, non appreciated, non informed and non listened to Bug fixers, App writers and indeed customer relation managers. The majority of new personel on here from Sep last year onwards only did so after hearing about the Flagship device Nokia was releasing. The amount of times a thread has been answered with the time old "Next firmware release", "Be patient and Nokia will announce" and the best one "It'll be fixed in Harmattan". This device cost alot of money and indeed will be some peoples main phone for the next 2 years. To stop supporting it after only 1(ONE) month is not only rediculous but god damn insulting.

Anyway just my 2 cents....

Posted on 9/28/07
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=78308&postcount=26

After 2 years of Nokia's crap, isn't anyone else sick of being a beta tester. Its like QA doesn't even exist over there.

Posted on 11/3/06
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=24803&postcount=49

I see no reason to upgrade when I am completely stable right now. Especially with all the problems people seem to be complaining about. I love my Nokia 770, but I am sick of being a BETA tester because they refuse to QA this stuff. It's not just the 770 though, I also have a Nokia 6682, while the phone is great, it reboots occaisonally and sometimes its when it rings. Call me cooky, but thats a serious bug, and there is no update, I have the latest software version and they will not be updating it. So I am stuck with a $300 phone that reboots sometimes when people call it.

NOKIA - GET IT TOGETHER!!

Welcome aboard!!! The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Being elected to the council gave my voice no more weight. In fact you might argue I was more vocal and listened to more, prior to joining the council in September. Just because the council MAY agree with you, doesn't necessarily mean we can do anything about it. And like it or not, nobody cares if I quit the council.... Some may even be happy (you know who you are) :D:D

Matan

01-29-2010, 03:43 PM

The problem with your link is that the opinion of the writer includes N900, the quote from Nokia says Maemo, so it does not really mean what you want it to mean.

russo_br

01-29-2010, 03:44 PM

Is that not what our elected council members are for????
Come on guys a bit more noise from the chosen few might make a difference!!

Were they elected by the community or by Nokia employees?? :D

Just kidding, didn't even know that there were a council... A suggestion to Nokia would be to indicate a PR employee to talk directly with these members, who could replicate official position to this forum, thus avoiding the increasing rumors and complains.

Rob1n

01-29-2010, 03:45 PM

Don't know where misinformation like this is coming from.

http://noknok.tv/2010/01/22/free-ovi-maps-3-03-on-the-nokia-n97-and-nokia-n900/

What was actually said (and quoted there) is that support for Maemo will be coming. Not necessarily Maemo 5 support though, and the feature requests have been changed to target Harmattan, not Fremantle. Whether it'll get backported afterwards or not is another question though.

VDVsx

01-29-2010, 03:46 PM

Below my personal opinion, as a community member:

First the nature of Open Source communities is peaceful, we don't make rebellions, if we have problems we try to fix them, people with those intentions are not welcome at least from my side.

I don't know who said that the device doesn't have support anymore, but is public that Nokia is working in PR 1.2, so that assumption is false.
As for the maemo6 in the N900, I perfectly understand the situation, but you guys want that Nokia make a promise based in a unfinished product ? Well if I were a manager I would not do that, during the development phase a lot of things can change, even some blocker that prevents maemo6 in the N900 can appear, then Nokia will be lying to the community.

I think Nokia already knows that we want maemo6 in the n900, so we should move along and stop the futurology and try to improve what we've now: Maemo5.

Matan

01-29-2010, 03:53 PM

Why do you collaborate with Nokia PR?
Why should we care that Nokia work on 1.2 which is sure to include a new theme, when practically every bug in bugzilla is WONTFIX in N900, a two months old device?

phortize

01-29-2010, 03:53 PM

this is the same for everything: programmed obsolescence. funny how the n900 which is probably the device in which there is less of it gets the more complaints. i think because they didnt programmed well and didnt communicate enough. but i guess their main problem is that we are a little bit smarter than the average iphone owners. there's also why our market is so little compared to that. sadly there's no so much they can do to fix this bug (fixed in harmattan??)

cBeam

01-29-2010, 03:54 PM

Don't know where misinformation like this is coming from.

http://noknok.tv/2010/01/22/free-ovi-maps-3-03-on-the-nokia-n97-and-nokia-n900/

Seriously this thread is like watching a bunch of emo kids at a death cab for cutie concert. Yes the N900 will become outdated, Yes the new Maemo 6 device will be better, Yes even the Mona Lisa is falling apart....but has your N900 lost any sort of functionality in the meantime? Do you really think your phone will be the rage 12 months+ past purchase? Do you think there will zero compatibility between Maemo 6 and Maemo 5, all this lament seems to come from the fact that yes, what was once new, will one day become old. Stop being so damn emo and enjoy the best mobile device on the market right now and for the immediate future(ie 3-6 months). If the new one comes out and has more bells and whistles that you really desparately need, go get it. I came from a N82 and I was thinking for a cellphone I really don't need much more, I love the camera, and I can function with the mobile web fine if need be. However I did own a N810 and loved it, and was interested to get my hands on the N900 and I'm glad I did, the contacts integration alone won me over.

FFS stop feeling like a petulant 14 yr old boy with a new stepmom that gets more of your dad's attention, and be thankful for the greatness in your hands right now.

It is obvious that you did not get my point.

Here again especially for you:

A 2 month old device has bugs. They need to be fixed. These bugs are marked as "Maemo 6". There is no indication if / when the 2 month old device will be able to run Maemo 6.

Conclusion: We do not know if / when the acknowledged bug will be fixed for the N900 or not. This is unacceptable.

Regarding your NokNok link: It was stated numerous times on this site that there is neither confirmation nor denial that turn by turn navigation will run on the N900. All it states that Nokia plans to make it run on Maemo, But which Mameo version? And will N900 be able to run it if it is not Maemo 5?

So why all this fuzz? Only because Nokia - so far- does not communicate. And Nokia could remedy this easily. Just communicate. This was the point of my post.

And please refrain from remarks like "petulant 14 yo". It just shows how immature you are.

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 03:55 PM

Do you really think your phone will be the rage 12 months+ past purchase? Do you think there will zero compatibility between Maemo 6 and Maemo 5, all this lament seems to come from the fact that yes, what was once new, will one day become old. Stop being so damn emo and enjoy the best mobile device on the market right now and for the immediate future(ie 3-6 months).

You're being very forgiving here. The M6 device is reportedly coming 2H2010?

Now, go through this list:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Abugs.maemo.org+harmattan

And you will see several times:
Setting
target to Harmattan only to indicate that, it considered, this is the earliest
release where we could see it implemented.

Too late for Fremantle, but we're discussing this item in regards to Harmattan.

(Too late for Fremantle?! It's been out 2 months! You can't make *any changes at all* after the phone is released? Really?)

The aim is to implemented this feature in Harmattan.
....
But no plans to change the current settings in Fremantle. There is an
opportunity for a community plugin if this is technically possible.

Etc.

Almost everything you look in there says "Version: 5.0" which is what the bug was opened against... and then "Target Milestone: Harmattan".

There's an awful lot of "enhancement" requests there that the N900 is perfectly capable of, being put off to "harmattan" - that provides absolutely no benefit to the N900 users at all. Plus, it's being pushed out, 2 months after the device hits the market!

How can that not be a *little* annoying?

As I've said before.. it's not entirely that Harmattan is not coming to the N900 that is the complaint.. it's combination of Fremantle not getting any additional features (or even some bugs fixed), and the N900 not getting the OS that *is* getting these features and bugs fixed. THAT's the problem.

If this were 6-12 months after the device was released, and THEN they started pushing crap off to the next version.. that's not so bad. 2 months? Really?

javispedro

01-29-2010, 03:55 PM

Also, I don't understand the craze about Maemo 6. How do you know it doesn't suck? It may even have LESS features than Maemo 5! (in fact if the past trends were any indicator it WILL have less features -- and some of the WONTFIXes are because of components no longer developed).

I'd personally be more angry about every non OSS component since that means bugs I cannot fix.

Flandry

01-29-2010, 04:04 PM

Indeed. I don't want M6 on my N900 so much as i don't want to see key things marked "Fixed in Harmattan". The thing is, if we know we will get M6 for N900, it will reduce the sting of that a bit.

russo_br

01-29-2010, 04:05 PM

Originally posted at: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=39397&page=2

Judging by the picture on this support page http://support.ovi.com/index.php?id=support_ovi_suite_sublanding&lang=en_GB hopefully things will be changing soon. :)

This is kinda off topic since it is related to Ovi Suite, sorry for that in advance... but it is ridiculous that in its own site Nokia publish a photo of the N900 besides the link for Ovi Suite download, since it is not supported!!

rewt

01-29-2010, 04:09 PM

Bugs opened against Fremantle, fixed or considered for fixing in Harmattan (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Maemo+Official+Applications&classification=Maemo+Official+Platform&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=RESOLVED&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=target_milestone&type0-0-0=equals&value0-0-0=Harmattan&field0-1-0=version&type0-1-0=regexp&value0-1-0=%5E5&field0-2-0=resolution&type0-2-0=notregexp&value0-2-0=%5E%28MOVED%7CWONTFIX%29%24). 37 After 2 months. What will this be in another 2? or 4? All signs point to only major bugs being resolved in Fremantle - no enhancements or anything minor. This means if Harmattan doesn't come to the N900, we're stuck with a half baked and unsupported product, lacking many commonplace features. Period.

hqh

01-29-2010, 04:11 PM

practically every bug in bugzilla is WONTFIX in N900, a two months old device?

A search in bugzilla could quickly reveal this claim to be BS.

phortize

01-29-2010, 04:15 PM

There's an awful lot of "enhancement" requests there that the N900 is perfectly capable of, being put off to "harmattan" - that provides absolutely no benefit to the N900 users at all. Plus, it's being pushed out, 2 months after the device hits the market!

How can that not be a *little* annoying?

thats what i was talkin about and its exactly the point here. its also the reason why steve jobs didnt put camera and flash plugin in the ipad 1.0. and its the programmed obsolescence. its a market rule. enjoy the fact that n900 is still the best right now.
and yes the wrong side here is that they didnt programmed well the obsolescence and that we are too smart for this market style.

Frank Banul

01-29-2010, 04:16 PM

How does one find all bugs that are targeted at Harmattan? I tried but the advanced search does not allow it that I could find.

Frank

sjgadsby

01-29-2010, 04:17 PM

...practically every bug in bugzilla is WONTFIX in N900, a two months old device?

I see 69 bugs WONTFIX'ed in 5.0-final on up (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&classification=Maemo+Official+Applications&classification=Maemo+Official+Platform&target_milestone=5.0-final&target_milestone=5.0-update3&target_milestone=5.0+%281.2009.41-10%29&target_milestone=5.0%2B&target_milestone=5.0+%281.2009.42-11%29&target_milestone=5.0%2F%281.2009.44-1%29&target_milestone=5.0%2F%282.2009.51-1%29&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=CLOSED&resolution=WONTFIX&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Bug+Number&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=) and 17 bugs already lost to Fremantle, being FIXED in Harmattan (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&classification=Maemo+Official+Applications&classification=Maemo+Official+Platform&target_milestone=Harmattan&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=CLOSED&resolution=FIXED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Bug+Number&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=) instead, but a whopping 157 bugs FIXED in 5.0+ (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&classification=Maemo+Official+Applications&classification=Maemo+Official+Platform&target_milestone=5.0%2B&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=RESOLVED&bug_status=VERIFIED&bug_status=CLOSED&resolution=FIXED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Bug+Number&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=). We know there's at least a 1.2 update on the way for Fremantle, and there's been hints of other, additional updates beyond that, so we're not at that Diablo-like "Yeah, we fixed it internally, but we're not releasing it" stage.

To say I'll be unhappy if Nokia does not make Harmattan available for the N900 is an understatement, I assure you. At the same time, you're exaggerating a wee bit here about how bugs are being resolved.

EDIT: As GeneralAntilles points out below, I didn't take into account where bugs were filed, so my Harmattan count is high. Many of its bugs were introduced with it, not Fremantle. In short, GA's numbers are better.

GeneralAntilles

01-29-2010, 04:18 PM

A search in bugzilla could quickly reveal this claim to be BS.

Of the 3064 (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&version=5.0&version=5.0-alpha&version=5.0-alpha-pre1&version=5.0-alpha-pre2&version=5.0-beta&version=5.0-beta2&version=5.0-final&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.41-10%29&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.42-11%29&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.44-1%29&version=5.0%2F%282.2009.51-1%29&version=Fremantle&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=) bugs filed against Fremantle, 475 have been marked FIXED, 470 (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&version=5.0&version=5.0-alpha&version=5.0-alpha-pre1&version=5.0-alpha-pre2&version=5.0-beta&version=5.0-beta2&version=5.0-final&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.41-10%29&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.42-11%29&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.44-1%29&version=5.0%2F%282.2009.51-1%29&version=Fremantle&target_milestone=Fremantle&target_milestone=5.0-alpha-pre1&target_milestone=5.0-alpha-pre2&target_milestone=5.0-alpha&target_milestone=5.0-beta&target_milestone=5.0-beta2&target_milestone=5.0-final&target_milestone=5.0-update3&target_milestone=5.0&target_milestone=5.0+%281.2009.41-10%29&target_milestone=5.0%2B&target_milestone=5.0+%281.2009.42-11%29&target_milestone=5.0%2F%281.2009.44-1%29&target_milestone=5.0%2F%282.2009.51-1%29&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&resolution=FIXED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=) of those are fixed in an existing or upcoming Fremantle release, while 5 (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&version=5.0&version=5.0-alpha&version=5.0-alpha-pre1&version=5.0-alpha-pre2&version=5.0-beta&version=5.0-beta2&version=5.0-final&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.41-10%29&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.42-11%29&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.44-1%29&version=5.0%2F%282.2009.51-1%29&version=Fremantle&target_milestone=Harmattan&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&resolution=FIXED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=) are fixed in Harmattan (of that 3064, 950 (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&version=5.0&version=5.0-alpha&version=5.0-alpha-pre1&version=5.0-alpha-pre2&version=5.0-beta&version=5.0-beta2&version=5.0-final&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.41-10%29&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.42-11%29&version=5.0%2F%281.2009.44-1%29&version=5.0%2F%282.2009.51-1%29&version=Fremantle&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&resolution=INVALID&resolution=WONTFIX&resolution=DUPLICATE&resolution=WORKSFORME&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=) have been marked INVALID/WONTFIX/DUPLICATE/WORKSFORME).

Edit: Damn you, sjgadsby! I blame Bugzilla being slow. :(

mrojas

01-29-2010, 04:18 PM

A search in bugzilla could quickly reveal this claim to be BS.

We could re-phrase it as "practically every bug I care about in bugzilla...".

Milhouse

01-29-2010, 04:22 PM

And like it or not, nobody cares if I quit the council...

The entire council resigning in protest is not something I want to see happen, but if Nokia sh1t on this community once more by refusing to give us OS updates after we have found a ton of bugs and enhancements at our own cost (both financial and temporal) then it may be the only action that will result in the kind of publicity that would cause Nokia to reconsider or - better still - avoid making the mistake in the first place.

Even those customers who haven't submitted bugs/enhancements deserve to be rewarded with an OS update otherwise they won't stay loyal Nokia/Maemo customers for much longer. Anyone who wants a smart/super phone, once they leave the Nokia fold I very much doubt they will ever come back.

Nokia needs to work a lot harder at retaining customers, and making existing customers buy a new device just to get new features and/or bug fixes is not the way. The competition have shown that improved and more capable hardware makes a better case for upgrading, while continuing to offer updates even for old devices.

omeriko9

01-29-2010, 04:26 PM

Well, we are all in the same boat here. Understand it now or in the next couple of weeks, but bug fixes (and I'm not talking about enhancements, only bug fixes) that are postponed to the next OS that will "probably" won't support our product is more than annoying - this is something that we as customers should not tolrate.

Since the first drops of "Will n900 support Harmattan?" here on talk.maemo.org and until this thread that points directly to a rare Nokia's offical communication with us, the customers, about the bug fixes - I thought deeply on what can be done, from a consumer point of view. And the fact Nokia is keeping radio silense only encourage me to think they don't want any offical "No, it won't support" comm as they don't want the rage of their current customers would become offical, and enjoy the dubios pleasure of us not being able to officaly protest against their (weird) buisness strategy.

First, we, the customers, should address Nokia directly with this.
I've seen the Texrat thread about taking it up with the council, and that's great, but it doesn't prevent us from taking action and turning to Nokia.

Only question left is how? (Should this be discussed in a brain storm? :p )
I thought about an electronic petition - a website that summerizes all being said here, and hopefully gets the web & the community's attention. On the site we can demand the minimum (or maybe more) that we expect right now - like bug fixes. If this thing catches momentum we might even ask for reasenable enhancemes (which also appear at bugzilla).

The petition will also remind Nokia that buying the next n9x0 device is not obvious and grately depends on how they will treat n900 and its community.

Your thoughts?

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 04:33 PM

Bugs opened against Fremantle, to be fixed in Harmattan (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&classification=Maemo+Official+Applications&classification=Maemo+Official+Platform&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=RESOLVED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=target_milestone&type0-0-0=equals&value0-0-0=Harmattan&field0-1-0=version&type0-1-0=regexp&value0-1-0=^5&field0-2-0=resolution&type0-2-0=notregexp&value0-2-0=^%28MOVED|WONTFIX%29%24). 37 After 2 months. What will this be in another 2? or 4? All signs point to only major bugs being resolved in Fremantle - no enhancements or anything minor. This means if Harmattan doesn't come to the N900, we're stuck with a half baked and unsupported product. Period.

Ok, using bugzilla search *definitely* better idea than my google method.

However, depending on your search parameters,

sjgadsby ('http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=501561&postcount=325') and GeneralA ('http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=501563&postcount=326') would disagree with your numbers.

However, I think your search does include some they miss, such as ones that are not actually marked "fixed", but in the comments say "being considered for harmattan" and/or have the milestone for Harmattan.

qgil

01-29-2010, 04:33 PM

As said in my previous post, let's start talking in more detail about Maemo 6 after releasing the alpha SDK announced for this quarter. Please.

The excellent Bug Jars at http://www.octofish.net/bugjar/ reflect part of the work the Maemo team is doing on Maemo 5. Follow them every Monday if you are not doing so already. There is more for N900 users to come from Nokia and of course there is more for you to come from the Ovi Store and maemo.org Downloads.

And now sorry for the off-topic, I hope it helps to bring this thread (and others you are following) on topic:

"Generating noise" out of bugzilla/brainstorm resolutions and Talk discussions won't help the work of Nokia employees like me sharing information about unreleased software. Discussions degenerating in rants haven't helped anybody in any community I have been part of.

maemo.org is a community where people collaborate, including Nokia employees (in their Nokia role, on their own or both). Of course we can discuss and even argue with each other. As a member of this community I have been disagreeing with and thanking to plenty of contributors. Almost always there has been a big respect, and this is one of the greatest values of the Maemo community. This is how real communities work.

Now, everybody should have clear that this is not a customer care channel. If you want to exercise your customer rights or plainly complain as a Nokia customer there are several ways to do it. Ranting in maemo.org might actually count since Nokia actually listens, but it's probably the less efficient and more expensive way in terms of "community energy". If you understand what I mean.

Milhouse

01-29-2010, 04:35 PM

First the nature of Open Source communities is peaceful, we don't make rebellions, if we have problems we try to fix them, people with those intentions are not welcome at least from my side.

The problem here is, and it's always been "the problem" is that we're mixing an open source community and a business. The business, from Nokias point of view, still seems to be run along the pre-2007/Symbian phone release model.

Since 2007 however, the tables were turned against Nokia yet nothing seems to have changed - Nokia devices/phones are still obsoleted as quickly as possible. That attitude is unsustainable, IMHO.

As for the maemo6 in the N900, I perfectly understand the situation, but you guys want that Nokia make a promise based in a unfinished product ? Well if I were a manager I would not do that, during the development phase a lot of things can change, even some blocker that prevents maemo6 in the N900 can appear, then Nokia will be lying to the community.

The Fremantle/Harmattan situation is uncomfortably similar to OS2007 problem with no support for the 770. By the time anyone realised it wasn't going to be supported on the 770, it was too late in the development process. At best we ended up with the Hacker Edition which proved it would have been possible to support the 770 had it been a consideration earlier in the development cycle.

So when should we make noises about the potential lack of Harmattan support on N900? Wait until it's about to be released, only to be told "too late, sorry"? Or make our voices heard NOW? There should be few technical reasons why Harmattan cannot run on the N900 hardware - any new hardware in the Harmattan devices (eg. digital compass) would simply not be available on N900.

Other mobile device manufacturers manage this sort of multi-device support without any issues, so should Nokia.

attila77

01-29-2010, 04:38 PM

Conclusion: We do not know if / when the acknowledged bug will be fixed for the N900 or not. This is unacceptable.

I always wonder how the semi-public bugzilla will be viewed by people no used to that sort of development model. I mean, would it be more acceptable to just not have a public bugzilla, not react to bugs and not have contact with some of the actual developers until the next version is out ? 'Cause thats pretty much what the competing platforms do. The 'forumization' of bugzilla is also a good indicator of this.

russo_br

01-29-2010, 04:38 PM

Below my personal opinion, as a community member:
First the nature of Open Source communities is peaceful, we don't make rebellions, if we have problems we try to fix them, people with those intentions are not welcome at least from my side.
......
I think Nokia already knows that we want maemo6 in the n900, so we should move along and stop the futurology and try to improve what we've now: Maemo5.

Sorry but there are facts that are not fixable by the community:
- Ovi Maps is not Open Source, and it is advertised by Nokia that N900 has navigation which is not true, it is an unfinished product... Telling that the community should make its own GPS software like Navit is just trying to get rid of their duties. If Nokia releases Ovi Maps for Maemo source code I think we get free navigation in a few weeks!!
- Most improvements that the community are suggesting for Maemo 5 are being pushed to Harmattan (and the most relevant ones I might add), so how can we not worry if Maemo6 will be available for N900?
- About being peaceful and not making rebellions, it seems to me like a hippie speech... everyone of us have to work somehow to make their living, and we gave a considerable money for our devices. Let's ask Nokia then if they will give us the next Maemo 6 device for free... I am sure they don't mind about money.

For instance, let's imagine you bought a new SUV car and realized that it didn't come with an advertised feature like 4x4 traction, and the seller tells you that they will only have 4x4 traction on the next year model, which will be launched in a few months, so I have to buy a new one if you want that. Would you pay someone to rebuild your car to add the 4x4 traction or demand that the seller deliver what was advertised? "Adding 4x4 traction" is not even feasible, therefore this example is very similar to the corrections that are being pushed to Maemo 6... and our brand new car will loose its value and get rusty...

reviver

01-29-2010, 04:40 PM

You do understand that people can create an endless list of enchantments? Did you go through that list of 37 bugs? If I would get to choose 37 improvements that they did for M5, I don't think it would contain many of those.

Most of them are far from major bugs. Only small improvements that you would think happen in hundreds between major platform upgrades. The only "major" classed bug has a workaround in the second comment.

Mac OSX development environment?
Binding maemo keys with their own keycodes?
Changing the device name?

We might get these things with M6, on the other hand, when M6 comes around the targets might be moved to M7 or rejected.

This is completely within my expectations of step 4 out of 5 with Maemo. Just as I bought the device. I did not buy step 4 that magically turns into step 5. Sure that would be nice bonus, but I am not going to expect that. For me N900 was by far the best thing out there and I really needed a new "phone". I am happy.

sgbirch

01-29-2010, 04:40 PM

when i bought the n96 i was happy with it for a week then they announced n97 WTF, then when n97 was launched good thing i didnt buy it , cuz who bought n97 got screwed, i was happy that i waited for the n900 before realisin this sh*t now.

Yup ... and so it goes. Why on earth do you think the new device will be different when you know exactly how Nokia operates. It is quite reasonable to expect the same for the M6 device, two months after it hits the streets it too will be unsupported and obsolete.

Caveat emptor.

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 04:41 PM

I always wonder how the semi-public bugzilla will be viewed by people no used to that sort of development model. I mean, would it be more acceptable to just not have a public bugzilla, not react to bugs and not have contact with some of the actual developers until the next version is out ? 'Cause thats pretty much what the competing platforms do. The 'forumization' of bugzilla is also a good indicator of this.

Ok.... and this is one of the many reasons why I support maemo and believe it to be the best mobile platform: it *is* the most open platform I've seen for these devices.

How, though, does that change the fact that there is a few bugs and enhancements already, this close to after the device release, being pushed off to the next one?

Anyway.. When I went to lunch I realized this entire debate was folly - it's not like we're going to *change* anything by ranting on Maemo.org... and then qgil ('http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=501587&postcount=329') went and verbalized my realization before I had a chance to.. so I think I'll just bow out now.

maxximuscool

01-29-2010, 04:42 PM

the best answer is! "if nokia doesn't port maemo6 to N900, then this is my last NOKIA, period!" I'll go for Android 2.0 instead. At least google didn't abandon it's devices.

Texrat

01-29-2010, 04:45 PM

I also want to clarify something about the appeals to the council, just to prevent possible misunderstandings:

We are your elected representatives. We willingly take heat from all directions in order to help bring you the best experience possible. If you guys only felt it like we do...

That said, we have very tiny teeth. We certainly can't dictate any terms to Nokia. And while I can empathize with the sentiment behind an en masse council resignation, I can tell you I won't participate-- simply because I see my role and goal as larger in scope than being an advocate for device continuity (although that is certainly important).

Now... do I like the term "Fixed in Harmattan"? Absolutely not. We can laugh now with the distance of time between us and past unpleasantries, to the point that "Fixed in Fremantle" makes a cute tee shirt slogan, BUT the community has made it clear this is a "fool me once" sort of thing. It can't happen again.

As to Maemo 6 on the N900... something I want? You bet. Something I think Nokia should strive for? Very much so. Will it be a dealbreaker for me personally if it doesn't happen? No, and I would be disingenuous to say otherwise. But I could see it as a dealbreaker for "my" constituency and so in that capacity I will campaign for it as much as I can.

The council can't deliver any ultimatums... but I have proposed we craft a statement of our intent, reflecting the will of this community. There's been some push back but we'll see how it plays out. If there is no consensus, *I* will deliver a statement that addresses the community members with whom I identify (ie, "my" constituency).

It's a side subject, but I see the council as failing miserably when it comes to periodic resolutions and statements of intent, philosophy, etc. I will try to drive more of that. You deserve no less than the most transparency and critical messages we can manage.

fatalsaint

01-29-2010, 04:45 PM

the best answer is! "if nokia doesn't port maemo6 to N900, then this is my last NOKIA, period!" I'll go for Android 2.0 instead. At least google didn't abandon it's devices.

True... my problem is google spends as much effort into keeping you out of your device as Nokia seems not to spend updating their old ones..

It doesn't really matter what company you go with.. you're being screwed in some way or another. Which may be the reason I still wind up with an N900... lack of upgrade path or not - it's still better than Android... *shrug*. It just makes me vomit a little every time I pay a company that blatantly pisses me off... it happened when google Cease and Desisted Cyanogen, and it'll happen when/if I pay Nokia.

That's just the nature of the beast in the consumer world though..

RFS-81

01-29-2010, 04:45 PM

Seriously this thread is like watching a bunch of emo kids at a death cab for cutie concert.
Ex-frickin-actly!

mrojas

01-29-2010, 04:50 PM

The decision of making Harmattan available on the N900 can be either come from a business or engineering point of view.

From a business point of view, it could happen that a decision comes from higher up saying "Make Maemo 6 available on the N900 no matter what", in which case engineers will make it happen.

From an engineering point of view, Maemo 6 could be developed until it reaches a point where it can be seen if it is feasible to make it available on the N900... and let business guys pick the broken dishes if not (angry customers, trade-in option, etc).

cBeam

01-29-2010, 05:00 PM

If you want to exercise your customer rights or plainly complain as a Nokia customer there are several ways to do it.

Can I take you up on that? All I need is the phone # of the N900 product manager.

Official Nokia support via their 1-800 numbers does not bring me anywhere.

Or are there other effective avenues I am not aware of. Letter to the CEO?

http://theprodigalguide.com/2010/01/28/an-open-letter-to-nokia-ceo-olli-pekka-kallasvuo-11-things-you-need-to-do-to-be-a-contender-in-the-high-end-smartphone-market-again/

VDVsx

01-29-2010, 05:01 PM

- About being peaceful and not making rebellions, it seems to me like a hippie speech... everyone of us have to work somehow to make their living, and we gave a considerable money for our devices. Let's ask Nokia then if they will give us the next Maemo 6 device for free... I am sure they don't mind about money.

Well, the only advice that I can give to you if you're not happy with the N900 and don't want to collaborate in the community, is return it, ask for a refund. As already said here this is not Nokia care, and I think no one is here for obligation.
Extreme measures would only damage the community, nothing more than that.

maxximuscool

01-29-2010, 05:01 PM

romanianusa

01-29-2010, 05:13 PM

Can we trade in N900 for N920??

danramos

01-29-2010, 05:14 PM

could some one out there porting MAEMO6 to NOKIA N900 please? if NOKIA won't do it then we are the community will do it.

Opensource OS can be use on most machine. i don't see the impossibility in this though. someone out there will hack MAEMO6 to work on N900. :) that is my hope!

Absolutely! We can clearly see how well 'FIXED IN FREMANTLE' worked out and how back-porting that is a smashing success, what with all the openness and availability of Nokia to its customers and all! So stop all your whining and just do it yourselves. heh

Can we trade in N900 for N920??

Hopefully, that's the cheaper one without the damned cell phone, with a bigger screen, etc,etc, right? Where did you get the N920 from? heh

johnel

01-29-2010, 05:16 PM

What I am grateful for is that the software is open source (one of the reasons I bought the phone).

This means if the community really wanted to we could fork our own version of maemo and maybe make our own compatible version.

That's one of the benefits of open source - a company can't hold you to ransom and force you to upgrade. At least you have the freedom to modify the software.

Nokia have done some great things with open source specifically LGPLing the QT library.

If maemo 6 in not officially ported to the n900 then maybe the community can try. The problem for developers is if Nokia make maemo 6 incompatible with maemo 5 then developers will yet again have to port their software over.

rezberlin

01-29-2010, 05:19 PM

Ex-frickin-actly!

HAHA! I agree.. and I even like DCFC!

My N900 is great. I love it. And be it M5 or M6 - the PRESENT product will surely continue to work and click for me for the next 2 years. What comes then, only the stars will know (if at all...)!

The only thing I dislike: NOKIA's PR and CONSUMER MARKETING & SUPPORT. It's like: hello, you're the #1 mobile phone producer in the world, and you can't roll-out the N900 correctly and in a way that makes sense? The german Nokia MAC Multimedia Transfer webpage STILL doesn't even know, that the N900 exists!

Depending on how well Nokia can catch up with my expectations as an early adopter/believer and hopefully valued customer during these next 2 years, I will continue to support the brand or jump the ship asap.

Mind you, I come from a SonyEricsson P990i! So, in comparison with Sony, Nokia is still better :)