Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?

[fatalsaint]

This means if the community really wanted to we could fork our own version of maemo and maybe make our own compatible version.


Follow Mer ('http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer'). they are also working on N900 functionality.

[phortize]

im going to trade my n900 for an n810!
no just kidding.

we just should boycott next device if maemo 6 is not backported. maybe some n810 owner did it with the n900. or demontrating in front of nokia factory and block the production for some months in order to remain the owners of the best phone for some time more. or we could develop it by ourselves since is open.

what we will actually do is: buying silently the next device like sheeps. ill take three of them.

[dyce]

is android considered more open than maemo then? the xda developer community ports later versions of android to their phone and its also possible to port it to n900. thee community here wont be able to have a community port to n900 of harmattan?

[omeriko9]

This is completely within my expectations of step 4 out of 5 with Maemo. Just as I bought the device. I did not buy step 4 that magically turns into step 5. Sure that would be nice bonus, but I am not going to expect that. For me N900 was by far the best thing out there and I really needed a new "phone". I am happy.

Well this is not within MY expectations, as I couldn't find any Nokia advertisments saying "Hey, this is the n900, step 4 out of 5!".

Furthermore I can't find any "Step 4 out of 5" label in any of these Nokia's official websites:

http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/devices/nokia-n900#/main/landing

http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/

http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/phones/nokia-n900#/main/landing

[fatalsaint]

is android considered more open than maemo then? the xda developer community ports later versions of android to their phone and its also possible to port it to n900. thee community here wont be able to have a community port to n900 of harmattan?

This was discussed here ('http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=41552').

There are more proprietary components making up the base of Maemo than there are Android. They both have proprietary drivers, but some of the other parts of maemo that actually make it function are closed off as well. The base Android OS is totally available for anyone to compile and use and put their own drivers in place.

Plus, using things like xda-dev's isn't the best way to express "openness" considering, as I mentioned elsewhere, cyanogen got a Cease and Desist order from Google for distributing their proprietary software (maps, market, etc).

[thinh]

lol nokia need to start taking advice from dominos pizza....

[mrojas]

The decision of making Harmattan available on the N900 can be either come from a business or engineering point of view.

From a business point of view, it could happen that a decision comes from higher up saying "Make Maemo 6 available on the N900 no matter what", in which case engineers will make it happen.

From an engineering point of view, Maemo 6 could be developed until it reaches a point where it can be seen if it is feasible to make it available on the N900... and let business guys pick the broken dishes if not (angry customers, trade-in option, etc).

I am quoting myself on this to make a point perfectly clear:

In my opinion, there needs to be a business-higher-up type of decision that says "Maemo 6 needs to be supported on the N900, not matter the cost or the effort". Period. If more time is needed to further develop Maemo 6, if more money is going to be needed hiring developers, if money is going to be lost by launching the device later than intended, so be it.

If for X reason, it is just technically impossible to fit Maemo 6 in the N900, then a trade-in discount program should be launched.

But Nokia can't afford to alienate customers, that have put their faith and goodwill on this nascent platform in such a gross way.

[wmarone]

This was discussed here ('http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=41552').cyanogen got a Cease and Desist order from Google for distributing their proprietary software (maps, market, etc).

Which aren't part of the base Android sources. Therefore you can't count cyanogen's run-in with Google against Android.

And while Maemo's governance is more open, it isn't obvious how much power it has nor does it give enough indication of future courses to quell threads like this or the other whiner thread.

[Crashdamage]

Threads like this kinda drive me crazy - they did on Android forums too. Same complaints I heard there are here. Like Louis CK said "Everything's amazing, nobody's happy..."

I have in my hands right now probably the most amazing chunk of technology they've ever held. It's not perfect. But it's awesome enough to make iPhone 3GS owners stare and mumble. And still people can't just use it and enjoy it. As usual, they want more. When they get more, they want more.

In a nutshell...QT 4.6 is coming to Maemo 5, so likely (most) apps developed later for Maemo 6 will run on 5 with little or no work. So if we get Maemo 6 - good. Not get Maemo 6 - still good, we can still run most new apps on 5. Isn't that the plan?

And like with Android/iPhone, apps can add missing features/functionality. Jeez, my G1/Android 1.0 couldn't do hardly anything when it came out. When the G1/Android had the initial release press conference, people kept asking "Does it xxx?" And the answer was mostly "That sounds like an excellent opportunity for a 3rd-party developer." because Android 1.0 was crippled crap. I haven't spent time with an Android 2x device, but with just the default stuff the N900 alreadykills anything running 1.6 or earlier. I'm SO glad I got away from Google/Android! And the iPhone...well...it's just frustrating.

Look, the N900 works today. It will still work tomorrow, next week, next year. Updated or not, it's still good. I just don't see a significant problem.

Edit: I'm not saying Maemo 6 shouldn't be supported on the N900. I think it would be smart business and good customer relations if it is. Nokia should definitely listen up to what's being said. I'm just sayin' as a user, I don't see a major problem it it's not.

[fatalsaint]

Which aren't part of the base Android sources. Therefore you can't count cyanogen's run-in with Google against Android.

No but I wasn't using against Android I was using it against xda-dev's... where a vast majority of those ROM's *do* include those components. Did you read my post? I did say the Android OS is more freely available for porting. However, most of those things on xda-dev's are *technically* illegal, except for cyanogen's new "legal" roms and some that take his methods of "copying" the proprietary components over.


And while Maemo's governance is more open, it isn't obvious how much power it has nor does it give enough indication of future courses to quell threads like this or the other whiner thread.

I'm not quite sure what you were getting at with this...I *think* I agree with your second part if I am understanding it right.. Nokia has a more open ecosystem with regards to it being "your" device than either Google or Apple, however Nokia has very little in the way of announcements or customer interaction that I've witnessed.

As far as How much "power" maemo has? It's blatantly obvious to me... it's a GNU/Linux system.

[DaveP1]

Well this is not within MY expectations, as I couldn't find any Nokia advertisments saying "Hey, this is the n900, step 4 out of 5!".

Furthermore I can't find any "Step 4 out of 5" label in any of these Nokia's official websites

I've never been able to find anything official either, certainly not on their websites.

So where did this come from? Or is it just wishful thinking? Does anyone have a source quoting a Nokia official? :confused:

[wmarone]

Did you read my post?
Of course not. Blithely ignoring the contents of other peoples posts is what I'm supposed to do, right? More importantly, your sentence was phrased such that I read it not as a dig against xda-devs but against google (suggesting that because of that incident Android was less open.)

I'm not quite sure what you were getting at with this...I *think* I agree with your second part if I am understanding it right.. Nokia has a more open ecosystem with regards to it being "your" device than either Google or Apple, however Nokia has very little in the way of announcements or customer interaction that I've witnessed.

As far as How much "power" maemo has? It's blatantly obvious to me... it's a GNU/Linux system.

You misread what I said. GA noted that Maemo was more open due to its governance, which is true. The community has a lot of say in what happens. However, how much "power" the community has isn't immediately obvious, and it doesn't appear to be strong enough to quell ridiculous fearmongering regarding the future of the N900.

What you said about Maemo is a given. I wasn't talking about Maemo itself.

[fatalsaint]

Of course not. Blithely ignoring the contents of other peoples posts is what I'm supposed to do, right? More importantly, your sentence was phrased such that I read it not as a dig against xda-devs but against google (suggesting that because of that incident Android was less open.)
Yeah.. I just have NO idea how you got that from:
Plus, using things like xda-dev's isn't the best way to express "openness" considering, as I mentioned elsewhere, cyanogen got a Cease and Desist order from Google for distributing their proprietary software (maps, market, etc).


You misread what I said. GA noted that Maemo was more open due to its governance, which is true. The community has a lot of say in what happens. However, how much "power" the community has isn't immediately obvious, and it doesn't appear to be strong enough to quell ridiculous fearmongering regarding the future of the N900.

What you said about Maemo is a given. I wasn't talking about Maemo itself.

Oh, then yes.. in this case I agree with you. I like Maemo more for it's open governance, however agree fully that it's based operating environment is more closed.

While I would prefer that to be fixed.. I still see Maemo as the better choice.

[Teemax]

Hello Maemo talk,

I just took a look at an N900 in store, and it looks interesting. There's a promotion on N900 until tomorrow (100euro off) so I need to make up my mind on whether to get it or not fast...

Could someone please tell me if Maemo 6 would be supported on N900 or not? If it's not, I probably would never buy a Nokia phone again.

Thanks!

[wmarone]

Yeah.. I just have NO idea how you got that
Subtle difference in reading. Not relevant in any case.

I still see Maemo as the better choice.
Well yes, it's essentially the only choice. Which is why I got my N900 and have zero regrets about it and can only facepalm at all the fearmonger threads.

[cBeam]

Hello Maemo talk,

I just took a look at an N900 in store, and it looks interesting. There's a promotion on N900 until tomorrow (100euro off) so I need to make up my mind on whether to get it or not fast...

Could someone please tell me if Maemo 6 would be supported on N900 or not? If it's not, I probably would never buy a Nokia phone again.

Thanks!

Teemax,

Your guess is a good as anyones.

AFAIK Nokia did not release an official statement that Maemo 6 will run on N900. They also did not release a statement that it won't.

[fatalsaint]

Well yes, it's essentially the only choice. Which is why I got my N900 and have zero regrets about it and can only facepalm at all the fearmonger threads.

I wouldn't say it's the only choice.. depends on what's important to you. I don't facepalm at "fearmonger" threads if that's what you're calling this because there is good info here and valid concerns about a device being left behind rather quickly after it was released.

If updates for the next 2 years are more important than access to your phone and an "open" community - then Android is the choice you would make as a consumer. If the more open OS, and a more free community outweigh a habit of the parent company to abandon projects... then Maemo is where it's at.

Just because there are a lot of "N900 FTL, Android iz teh bomb!" crap threads doesn't mean they are *all* that way. There is a valid point here.. it's just falling on deaf ears to anyone that matters.. that's all.

[zwer]

I've previously stated what happened with my N95 with a flip of a switch from Nokia (loosing its most marketed functionality in my country). To say that I was dissatisfied would be a gross understatement. Yet, despite all that, I still ended up with N900. So far, at least in the past ~15 years, my experience with Nokia has been somewhat sour-sweet (one device awesome, one device crap), but that's usually how end-user dealings with companies are, and I don't think I can name more than a few companies that never f-ed me up. And I'm perfectly fine with that. That's just the way it is.

I'm just trying do differentiate myself from the resident whiners and express my point of view that goes a fair bit beyond the device in question.

In the past few months, and especially in the past few weeks since I've had the pleasure to dive in it directly, I felt in love with the Maemo platform. N900 is probably one of the best gadgets I've ever had pleasure to own, period. And even if Nokia is to declare that Harmattan won't be supported on the N900, and even if couple of bugs I find mighty annoying, or a couple of essential missing features are not to be fixed on it EVER, I'd still buy it. Even at its current state, it quite fulfills most of my needs, certainly more than anything pocketable out there, and I don't regret giving 630€ for it, not for a second. So, most of the whining directed towards N900, crying how `this will be my last Nokia if...` and similar sorts of childish emotional blackmails certainly ain't my cup of tea.

However, naturally, I do feel as a part of the Maemo community, and I do care what will happen with it in the future. And for it to have any future, IMHO, some issues must be ironed out. It's irresponsible for Nokia to treat N900 as a side-project now when it does have a `critical mass` of users - at this point, I'd argue, that N900 is more important for the acceptance of the Maemo platform than the next device. It's not that there will be no new users in the future, and it's not that whenever their device with Maemo 6 comes out it won't get its own `critical mass`, but by turning their focus away from N900 and towards the next device they will alienate plenty of Maemo early-adopters. And it will leave far greater dent in the Maemo platform acceptance than ever before. People will be rightfully disappointed if their `new shiny preciousss` ends up as Nokia's expensive experiment. And those people will advise their friends to stay clear from Nokia, and what's more saddening, from the Maemo itself. And with the present market and fierce competition in this area, Maemo will have a hard time to get through, so the public outrage would be the last thing it needs. I would like dearly for Maemo to succeed for a number of reasons that cannot even fit this board, and that's why I am concerned with the current status, and I'm asking Nokia to give the N900 more support. It will pay up in the long run for the both sides - Nokia and it's users.

And that is just from the user perspective. When I switch to developer perspective things get even more problematic. I've contributed to numerous more or less successful FOSS projects, and I actually make a living by developing open-source solutions or at least partially open-source solutions. Maemo as a platform, even if not as opened as I'd like it to be and as general opinion is, simply begs to dive in. But the bar for a developer is slightly higher than the one for a mere consumer - while the latter requires a simple money investment, the former also requires the time familiarizing with the platform, SDK, its quirks and glitches, its limitations... And without a clear picture of what will become of Maemo it's not very persuasive argument for a developer to jump in on the bandwagon. If the Maemo platform ends up as a catastrophic failure (I'm almost certain it won't, but you never know...) it's hours and hours wasted, and that's what professional developers are trying to avoid. I'm not talking just about me, I'm talking about big developers that are in the end what will define it's success on the market. And so far, Nokia seems too quiet on addressing the rising concerns about QT portability, the future GTK+ support, and such, not to mention how the platform will evolve and what will be required from the developers to stay in the game. How can I be sure that I won't need to rewrite my app from scratch to make it work in the future versions of Maemo? I'm not even sure that all the time I invest in exploring the Maemo structure will be of any merit on the future Maemo platform. Sure, we have a rough road map, we have more-or-less open Bugzilla, heck, we even have some of the core developers on this board, but that's just not enough, or at least is not assuring enough for major developers to dive in...

Without a more positive feedback and definite support from Nokia themselves, one has to ask if they are indeed serious on bringing the Maemo to fulfill its potential, or are we just serving as guinea pigs for some Nokia's side project that might as well never get to a place we know it could belong.

Just my 2¢...

[reviver]

I would really like to see the iPhone 3GS commercial saying "Still no multitasking!" ;)

Still, on non-marketing level, I feel Nokia has been pretty open about this not being a "full package" and more targeted to early adopters.

Anyway, here is an old article that quotes Anssi Vanjoki...
http://www.mobilenewscwp.co.uk/News/314511/nokia_networks_may_reject_n900.html

[Milhouse]

Assuming M6 ever becomes available for the N900, I can give my N900 to my brother while I trade up to the new M6 device (he tends to upgrade on a cycle about 12-18 months behind me and typically takes my old phone, currently an N85). With my N900, my brother can continue to buy more M6 applications from the Ovi Store as they become available, and I can do the same on my new M6 device.

However if the N900 can't run M6, and it won't be compatible with all the new apps in Ovi Store then while my brother may still want it, the selection of apps in Ovi Store that are available to him will steadily become more limited and in turn the income generated from him will begin to approach zero. Or my N900 may go into a drawer (I'm a hoarder, don't ask) if some of the more annoying bugs are never fixed in M5 as I won't want to be held responsible for giving him a sucky phone (he's not interested in being a Maemo beta tester), but either way Nokia will not see any more money from my N900, whereas it could continue to be a revenue generator if it could be given a new lease of life with M6.

The competition have recognised that while compatibility across devices may lead to reduced income from device sales (compared to the old "obsolete quickly, sell many" device mentality), this multi-device compatibility massively increases the size of the potential market for application sales AND it means that content suppliers can target many more end users, making the platform more popular which in turn leads to more device sales. Everyone is happy. :)

Literally every iPhone application works on every iPhone model - iPhone developers are not faced with having to choose if they want to support just the latest 3GS model ("and to hell with the other 20m+ non-3GS devices, didn't care about them anyway!") It's why the iPhone is so attractive to developers and content publishers alike - it's a stable, progressive platform and not one that chucks the baby out with the bath water with each OS release.

Leaving the N900 stuck on M5 with no M6 compatibility just makes it all the harder to convince developers and content providers that they should support the new M6 device and M6 OS, whereas making M6 available for the N900 means there will be a ready and willing client base (ie. market) from the word go.

Not making M6 available to N900 owners would be just sheer bl00dy madness.

Anyway, last comment from me on the subject for the time being. :)

[NvyUs]

At Nokia World when presenting the N900 they said it was step 4 of 5.
I've also seen it quoted many times in interviews with nokians since.
If people missed this which I don't know how they could b/c every mobile blog on the net quoted it and still are when writing about n900 then you must of done lack of research about the product before hitting purchase.

[slux]

This was discussed here ('http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=41552').

There are more proprietary components making up the base of Maemo than there are Android. They both have proprietary drivers, but some of the other parts of maemo that actually make it function are closed off as well. The base Android OS is totally available for anyone to compile and use and put their own drivers in place.

Plus, using things like xda-dev's isn't the best way to express "openness" considering, as I mentioned elsewhere, cyanogen got a Cease and Desist order from Google for distributing their proprietary software (maps, market, etc).

Well, I for one don't think it's that simple as was discussed on that thread. The governance is only one thing... another thing is that the difference between even the Android and Maemo base platform may not be that great if you count in the Google Apps which do provide some pretty basic functionality as well.

Device manufacturers can add even more non-free software on top of that and/or modify the base Android system without releasing the modified versions anywhere because of the Apache license used for all of it.

Also, if you look at the rest of the apps installable for the platform, most of Maemo's apps seem to be open source while Android has about 10 free software apps available.

[Stskeeps]

Time to weigh in on this thread as maemo.org distmaster and as someone who has been trying to put Fremantle on N8x0 along with lessons learnt from this experience and why things didn't pan out well for Mer and why I think the situation is different than with the N8x0.

There's a load of different questions in this thread, which can be summarised as:

1) Technical: Will the Harmattan 'distro' run on N900 hardware?

Let's start with a comparison. The key difference between a N8x0 and a N900 is the fact that the N900 has a GLES2.0 capable chip and a N8x0 has a GLES1.1 capable chip. The centerpiece of the N900, the desktop, requires a GLES2.0 capable chip to run smoothly and properly. Another problem is the fact that the SDK of Maemo5 compiles exclusively for ARMv7 and up, while N8x0 has ARMv6.

From a distribution point of view, it is simply later versions of most of the same packages that made up Diablo on your N8x0s with some added functionality, new APIs, new kernel. But the desktop is the dealbreaker as well as the application binary incompatibility.

As someone said earlier in the thread from a summit slide 'Harmattan / Maemo 6, including OMAP3, OpenGL ES, capacitive screen support and multitouch UI'

From a purely distribution (speaking of source packages) point of view and SDK point of view, I'd like to hope that the distribution would run. Since they're both OMAP3, the applications would probably be compatible too.

Why do I think it probably would? Because we're already running many of the Harmattan versions of packages open sourced at http://maemo.gitorious.org in Mer. On the N900.

2) Usability: Will the Harmattan UI be usable on N900 hardware?

The general question is if UI relying on multitouch would be usable. Who knows. But the argument I keep repeating to myself (as this matters to me in Mer and it's future) is that a developer will have to run their SDK on a single-touch desktop machine and hence there will be a way to deal with single-touch in the UI.

3) Support: Who will maintain Maemo 6 on N900? Who do I complain to when something goes wrong?

Would it be a Nokia released OS (with all the bells, whistles and support), or something maintained by community or by a third party.

Is community capable of providing it if they had all the assistance needed including relicensing of some components?

From my side, I'd really hope we would be capable of this in the community.

The foundation for this is already in Mer and while Mer isn't that functional yet (bad choices and GLES turning out to be 1.1 on N8x0), for Harmattan, we wouldn't have to work for a year to get to this point again - we have something we can drop packages into and see how well it works. Hopefully we can start doing this in alpha SDK, just like we did with Fremantle pre-alpha and alpha SDK.

Someone once said: "Mer is also a proof point of the openness of the Nokia devices designed for Maemo. For me one of the beauties of Maemo is that you can get rid of it. It is not imposed".

We are capable of taking matters into our own hands and help make the Nokia devices do our bidding and -replace- our phone OS with our -OWN- OS image. And even have a collaborative relationship with the original OS makers while doing it, working out licensing terms etc instead of every day living with a C&D risk.

Instead of looking at Nokia only providing support for a certain time after device release, look at how they're trying to help us take matters into our own hands. They're empowering us.

And they're already now taking steps to put Harmattan pieces out in the open on http://maemo.gitorious.org and http://qt.gitorious.org and developing them openly. They already take patches, too!

[rewt]

In a nutshell...QT 4.6 is coming to Maemo 5, so likely (most) apps developed later for Maemo 6 will run on 5 with little or no work. So if we get Maemo 6 - good. Not get Maemo 6 - still good, we can still run most new apps on5.
[...]
Updated or not, it's still good. I just don't see a significant problem.

So you're fine with receiving no more OS bug fixes/enhancements, except for major issues? Let's see if you still agree with that statement once you're affected by something that won't be fixed without spending another $600.

[fatalsaint]

Well, I for one don't think it's that simple as was discussed on that thread. The governance is only one thing... another thing is that the difference between even the Android and Maemo base platform may not be that great if you count in the Google Apps which do provide some pretty basic functionality as well. Device manufacturers can add even more non-free software on top of that. Also, if you look at the rest of the apps installable for the platform, most of Maemo's apps seem to be open source while Android has about 10 free software apps available.

None of that has to do with actual opennes of the operating environment though. All of that has to do with the ecosystem.

Take for example NITDroid ('http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=25410'). That is a truly free Android port. Note, many found it "useless" because it does not, and cannot (unless they got around it) include the "Google Market" which is a proprietary app.. however - Android is not the Market, Android is the Operating system. All apps that are *on* the market should run on the NITDroid, but getting them is problematic because google has locked down the Market itself.

However, other market systems *do* work for it.. that also work on an android device.

Now your turn - wheres the Maemo-port done by the android community for their phone?

ETA: Also, there are more than 10. I only use Free software and I have quite a bit on my G1 phone.

[Lind1e]

Hi all, I'm new to all of this "forum" stuff, so please excuse me if I make an error. I've just finished an 18 month pay monthly contract with O2 (I live in the UK) and I'm due a handset upgrade (some are free, some aren't depending on the cost of the handset). My relationship with O2 is ending as they won't touch the Nokia N900 with a bargepole. It seems they are too up Apple's backside with the iPhone (most of the people that I know who have one, reckon that it's the dog's.........) but I've decided NOT to run with the pack and take my valuable custom elsewhere and go with Vodaphone for 24 months on the understanding that I get a N900. I've heard such good things about this phone - the OS, for one thing, which is Linux based, if I'm not mistaken? However, it seems that no matter how many good reports I've read, these have been really shaken by some of the things that you guys have been putting on the last nine pages of this thread. I'm not even going to try and quote some of the things, but basically, what I've read is that it will not be supported by Nokia, OS wise, and maemo 5 will be more or less out of date in the next few weeks/months? Am I right? Do I bother dragging myself into Vodaphone tomorrow to get my holy grail, or do I wait? Or god forbid, do I get an iPhone? Sorry about typos - I get quite emotional :(

[Lacedaemon]

Go on a store and play with it. If you like it and it does what you need it to do, then purchase it.

Also, it can be a great device if everyone contributes instead of creating more whine posts.

[fatalsaint]

....

Thank you STskeeps for weighing in and for this post.

So in all honestly then... the entire maemo base (any version) was available and open for you to recompile and use for mer? Or did you have to replace components with your own software due to licensing/proprietary concerns??

(not including drivers).

This is more for my own curiosity than for relevance to the actual thread.

[Teemax]

I don't really see any reason why Maemo 6 cannot be supported by the N900, except to drive the sales of the M6 device...

A public statement of M6 support would do WONDER for the N900 and the Maemo platform. As a potential buyer of the N900, I'm pretty much sold, until I read about M6 and its uncertain future on the N900.

[Stskeeps]

So in all honestly then... the entire maemo base (any version) was available and open for you to recompile and use for mer? Or did you have to replace components with your own software due to licensing/proprietary concerns??

(not including drivers).

People should remember this announcement (http://maemo.org/news/announcements/first_maemo_5_sdk_release_targeting_platform_devel opers/) which said:

"This early release comes with an invitation to build variants based on Maemo 5 compatible with existing hardware like the N800 and N810. Maemo SW can't promise commercial quality for such configurations but through maemo.org we are able to collaborate at a community level with technical support, license changes and code."

Our hybris was also that we wanted to start out with a fully open source base instead of cutting corners with closed source things. Also, we went in directions that made us incompatible with Maemo5 for some things as well. So in some ways, in all the organisation build-up and hacking day after day, we forgot to remember about the goal - having a usable OS by the user. In practice, we didn't ask for that much relicensing and those we asked for, we got.

But the invitation still stands, I'd say. If we needed recompiles, I'm sure it would be possible to work it out somehow - especially with my role as distmaster now.

[slux]

None of that has to do with actual opennes of the operating environment though. All of that has to do with the ecosystem.

Take for example NITDroid ('http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=25410'). That is a truly free Android port. Not, many found it "useless" because it does not, and cannot (unless they got around it) include the "Google Market" which is a proprietary app.. however - Android is not the Market, Android is the Operating system. All apps that are *on* the market should run on the NITDroid, but getting them is problematic because google has locked down the Market itself.

However, other market systems *do* work for it.. that also work on an android device.

Now your turn - wheres the Maemo-port done by the android community for their phone?

ETA: Also, there are more than 10. I only use Free software and I have quite a bit on my G1 phone.

Well, arguing about what constitutes or doesn't constitute an "operating environment" or "operating system" is an endless thing as we can easily see from the GNU/Linux vs. Linux controversy for example. If you take the most conservative possible approach and only include the kernel, you won't have a single actual Android device that functions as a phone with only open source components anyway. But then you'd probably pick some other arbitrary line.

Maybe it is so that even forgetting about the kernel modules, you can't even get a basic phone implementation of Maemo that is completely free/open source at the moment. Even in that case I'd say it's not so simple to say "this one is more open than that one" because being able to run a free (minus the kernel modules) version is just one way of looking at it. I agree that it can be considered a fairly important factor though.

Not having a Maemo for an Android device right now that the first phone-capable Maemo device has been out for two months doesn't really mean there will never be one either, it's still a bit early. Which other market systems are you talking about btw?

My "about 10" estimate came from the lists compiled by the SFLC folks. Certainly they hadn't catalogued more than 20 even if being generous.

[fatalsaint]

People should remember this announcement (http://maemo.org/news/announcements/first_maemo_5_sdk_release_targeting_platform_devel opers/) which said:

"This early release comes with an invitation to build variants based on Maemo 5 compatible with existing hardware like the N800 and N810. Maemo SW can't promise commercial quality for such configurations but through maemo.org we are able to collaborate at a community level with technical support, license changes and code."

Our hybris was also that we wanted to start out with a fully open source base instead of cutting corners with closed source things. Also, we went in directions that made us incompatible with Maemo5 for some things as well. So in some ways, in all the organisation build-up and hacking day after day, we forgot to remember about the goal - having a usable OS by the user. In practice, we didn't ask for that much relicensing and those we asked for, we got.

But the invitation still stands, I'd say. If we needed recompiles, I'm sure it would be possible to work it out somehow - especially with the role as distmaster now.

While I appreciate the attempt at being politically correct, and I'm sure your position as an official distmaster has something to do with that... what I took from that was "No."

Which is just the subtle point I was trying to make regarding the "openness" of the Maemo Operating System.

I respect and agree that Nokia is more willing to work with their communities than other manufacturers.. and that the environment in the community, apps, and "root" on device is more open than - say - android... the founding structure of Maemo itself is not fully available.

To grab the sources, and build a working, bootable to desktop version of maemo is not possible, in my understanding - correct?

I love Mer and everything it tried to do.. and hope it does frame into something that is needed in the future, either a stop-gap to M6 for the N900, or just a plain open source replacement to M5 or M6.. either is perfectly wonderful..

But unfortunately Mer (to my understanding) cannot be used as an example of openness like the NITDroid can.. they didn't need to work with Google to get a working port (AFAIK).

Anyway.. this particular topic is off-topic for this thread and belongs in the other one I linked to a few posts back.. You just chimed in at a perfect time :).

[pycage]

This thread should be clearly marked [FUD] in its title.
It's nothing but fear based on uncertainty and doubt. You will see the facts in maybe end of the year. Until then, enjoy your device. And then, continue enjoying or get the next thing (whether that will be from Nokia is your choice, you don't have to follow any herd).

[Crashdamage]

So you're fine with receiving no more OS bug fixes/enhancements, except for major issues
I believe that's what I said. My N900 works very well for me. It's not perfect, but it's very good and there's nothing else like it.

Think about this...since the iPad was announced, tech-type guys are moaning about how it should have Apple's full OS-X on it, a 'real' OS, not the limited 'phone' OS-X version. But if it ran Maemo 5, there would be no such complaints, 'cause it would be running a 'real' OS.

So I'm gonna moan an' groan an' throw a hissy fit because my N900 which already has the most powerful mobile OS on the friggin' planet may not get an even more awesome version? Naaa...

[Stskeeps]

Maybe it is so that even forgetting about the kernel modules, you can't even get a basic phone implementation of Maemo that is completely free/open source at the moment. Even in that case I'd say it's not so simple to say "this one is more open than that one" because being able to run a free (minus the kernel modules) version is just one way of looking at it. I agree that it can be considered a fairly important factor though.


Repeat after me: There are no closed source kernel modules on a standard N900 firmware image. Find me one.

Phone parts - Ofono already runs under Mer (see jebba's post). Battery management, well, blob, but Nokia doesn't mind Nokia SW on Nokia devices. If the actual audio works (properly) in phone, not sure yet, but this is something we should work with getting working - at that point it would be comparable to a Freerunner in terms of usefulness ;)

[fatalsaint]

Well, arguing about what constitutes or doesn't constitute an "operating environment" or "operating system" is an endless thing as we can easily see from the GNU/Linux vs. Linux controversy for example.
Being able to boot to a desktop and perform the most basic function: Make a phone call (I might even make this part optional if we can get a fully bootable desktop). You can do this in android (in my understanding).

Which other market systems are you talking about btw?

My "about 10" estimate came from the lists compiled by the SFLC folks. Certainly they hadn't catalogued more than 20 even if being generous.

http://www.wipconnector.com/appstores

And there is an option in the official android market to "show only free apps"... They may or may not be open source: like Pandora Radio - but they are free to me as an end user... and there are many hundreds.

[Stskeeps]

While I appreciate the attempt at being politically correct, and I'm sure your position as an official distmaster has something to do with that... what I took from that was "No."

Which is just the subtle point I was trying to make regarding the "openness" of the Maemo Operating System.

To grab the sources, and build a working, bootable to desktop version of maemo is not possible, in my understanding - correct?


Nah, I'm not trying to be politically correct, just explaining my own experience - I work for community, not Nokia, so in those areas I'm still a PITA :). And you're 100% right, this is not possible. In a couple of days, my openness report will go out, so you can isolate exactly why some things are closed. And yes, that Maemo isn't 100% OSS is hurting me daily in Mer. But let's take that in another thread, feel free to fork.

[omeriko9]

At Nokia World when presenting the N900 they said it was step 4 of 5.
I've also seen it quoted many times in interviews with nokians since.
If people missed this which I don't know how they could b/c every mobile blog on the net quoted it and still are when writing about n900 then you must of done lack of research about the product before hitting purchase.

The ifone 2G was a step before the 3G. Apple didn't declare it as a step, but it was obvious that something better will come. Android 1.0 was a step before 2.0 & 2.1 and again, no one declared it as a step.

A declaration of this kind is meaningless. It's a very vague announcement that allows them to hide behind it and use it the way they want to, and to you to interpret it as the lack of basic operations and functionalities in the device is OK because it's only a step.

Every electronic device these days is a step.

If I'm buying an expensive product, and this product is a milestone, a step, and a complete product that better products will follow it - great.
But if the product is a beta, which is what the n900 feels to me, and I'm actually the one doing the QA on the device for the next device to come, that's not acceptable, although the idea of selling a beta product (in contrary to product with a beta version) is ingenious.

Maybe I haven't done my research properly, but I'm not the only one. If you feel great with your step 4 device - that's cool.
If you don't - let Nokia hear you and know that this is not acceptable by their customers.

[Matan]

Our hybris was also that we wanted to start out with a fully open source base instead of cutting corners with closed source things. Also, we went in directions that made us incompatible with Maemo5 for some things as well. So in some ways, in all the organisation build-up and hacking day after day, we forgot to remember about the goal - having a usable OS by the user. In practice, we didn't ask for that much relicensing and those we asked for, we got.

But the invitation still stands, I'd say. If we needed recompiles, I'm sure it would be possible to work it out somehow - especially with my role as distmaster now.

Can you even charge the battery in N8x0 with open source only?

[sxc]

If Nokia aren't going to properly support the N900, they're shooting themselves in the foot big time!

Maemo is a late and so far pretty marginal, if potentially very promising, entry in the crowded smartphone OS field. It's too far from being comparable in terms of many features and performance with Nokia's own incumbent S60 platform.

If we, the early adopters get once again taken for a ride, I really don't see who's going to buy the next Maemo device. Nokia will slowly but surely regress to the rank of cheap & cheerful "convenience" phone manufacturer and we all will be running either Android or Apple OS phones in ~18 months' time.

If, on the other hand, Nokia concentrates hard to make the N900 a wotrhy competitor to Android, S60 and the iPhone OS, then there's hope...

[Stskeeps]

Can you even charge the battery in N8x0 with open source only?

If you chroot into initfs, sure. And I forgot to add 'with some closed source hardware support' :P But let's fork this thread if this is what we have to discuss. Original thread is too important to take this direction.

[raily]

I hate this thread and Nokia for putting the N900 at this price to the market just to dump it for an upcoming Maemo 6 device

[danramos]

I hate this thread and Nokia for putting the N900 at this price to the market just to dump it for an upcoming Maemo 6 device

Which, once again, brings me to my rants about the cellular radio (which is a large contributing factor to the price). :)

Why didn't they just concentrate on putting GREAT VOIP software on a new wifi device, make it cheaper, lighter with a bigger screen (what with all that new real estate that the removal of cellular radio provides). Spend your resources on the software... THEN, if it proves to be an AMAZING VOIP phone, down the road, add cellular or mobile radio when it's much cheaper and smaller to implement. While we're at it, the resources should also have gone into better supporting the customers and providing a means to get repairs and parts rather than shmoozing with T-Mobile just to lose it or putting all that effort into cellular at all.

The executives/management have really porked this one.

[crenquis]

The impression that I got when reading "road map" type articles about where maemo is going is that the n900 is going to be like the 770 tablet -- somewhat abandoned after less than a year...

I still bought a n900, because I think that this will be the last nxxx tablet that is completely open.

[huschke]

I still have faith in Nokia. I mean they have to support a device I paid 600 € for, right?

[Lind1e]

Hi again, guys. Now that is what I call more positive! Thank you :) Believe me, I had every intention of going to pick up my own personal "Holy Grail" in the morning - I've been looking forward to it all week. I've also been reading (not on this website, I might add) a thread all about "x" and this joke.....

If the designers of X Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles - but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that.
-- Marcus J. Ranum, Digital Equipment Corporation

which is rather funny.

Finally, although the Vodaphone contract is for 24 months the handset is free :D and from what I can gather, so are most of the applications........

[qgil]

How, though, does that change the fact that there is a few bugs and enhancements already, this close to after the device release, being pushed off to the next one?

Because of relatively obvious reasons in platform development. Within one release you avoid touching the kernel and low level components unless you have a very good reason. You don't introduce changes in the UI specs unless you have a very good reason. You don't touch components providing an API unless you have a very good reason. Things like these.

In the specific case of the step from Maemo 5 to 6 we have a change of toolkit, which means that our applications are being rewritten/redesigned. If a feature request implies deep work and is actually being done in the new version, then we prefer to put the resources in a good Harmattan implementation rather than in 2 half-backed implementations... or a N months delay.

This is why in certain cases we know that a certain bug or feature request is not going to be addressed in Maemo 5, independently of the time the N900 has been in the shelves. You have the option of getting nervous because of this information... or you have the option to get used to open development practices.

Tip for the weekend. Don't get nervous & enjoy the ride. Let's talk again after the Harmattan alpha release.

[raily]

The N900 and any other smartphone above 500€ just cannot justify the price by the pure system specs. there needs to be a certain software background which needs to be growing and updating after the device purchase. at least that is what I expect. otherwise I could go back to basic telephony&sms phones with 2 weeks battery life selling at 50-100€

[fatalsaint]

Because of relatively obvious reasons in platform development. Within one release you avoid touching the kernel and low level components unless you have a very good reason. You don't introduce changes in the UI specs unless you have a very good reason. You don't touch components providing an API unless you have a very good reason. Things like these.

In the specific case of the step from Maemo 5 to 6 we have a change of toolkit, which means that our applications are being rewritten/redesigned. If a feature request implies deep work and is actually being done in the new version, then we prefer to put the resources in a good Harmattan implementation rather than in 2 half-backed implementations... or a N months delay.

This is why in certain cases we know that a certain bug or feature request is not going to be addressed in Maemo 5, independently of the time the N900 has been in the shelves. You have the option of getting nervous because of this information... or you have the option to get used to open development practices.

Tip for the weekend. Don't get nervous & enjoy the ride. Let's talk again after the Harmattan alpha release.

While I normally appreciate and agree with you completely qgil this is what makes it frustrating.

Sure, you're making harmattan great - but evidently that does absolutely nothing for those that bought the N900 and have paid Nokia now.

I don't really call it "open development" practices.. if it were open - We'd get harmattan on the N900 and this entire debate would be a non-issue.

[danramos]

This is why in certain cases we know that a certain bug or feature request is not going to be addressed in Maemo 5, independently of the time the N900 has been in the shelves. You have the option of getting nervous because of this information... or you have the option to get used to open development practices.

I sincerely hope you mean to imply that Maemo 6 will certainly be released for the N900 and that you're not implying, once again, that it will be up to the community to backport features for a community run distribution like the N8x0 devices were relegated to.

Otherwise, with apologies, I might summarize what you wrote as "Piss on consumers! Everybody should be a developer!"

Tip for the weekend. Don't get nervous & enjoy the ride. Let's talk again after the Harmattan alpha release.

This certainly didn't help alleviate the aloof nature of my rephrasing of your statement.

[jsa]

About dedication to the community, I'd like to point out that Quim Gil is posting here in a more or less official capacity at 1:30 AM(!) his local time at a friday night. My respects.

[danramos]

If the designers of X Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles - but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that.
-- Marcus J. Ranum, Digital Equipment Corporation

which is rather funny.

HAH! It's funny, alright. To think that the more open X Window System (singular, not plural, btw) is still here while Digital's GEM is gone to obscure history.

[crash16]

i bought an n900 thinking that is the best phone on the market! but i think i changed my mind because you can't do anything with it. there are no applications to download....nothing! and more than that has a lot of bugs, no portatrit mode....it sucks

[qgil]

Sure, you're making harmattan great - but evidently that does absolutely nothing for those that bought the N900 and have paid Nokia now.

Your words, based on your thoughts. Allow me to disagree. :)

Again, I recommend you to come back to this topic after the Harmattan alpha release.

[fatalsaint]

Your words, based on your thoughts. Allow me to disagree. :)

Again, I recommend you to come back to this topic after the Harmattan alpha release.

Which is fine but it's not really "based on my thoughts". It's based on the information I have available to me at this time.. and I've made those clear. I don't randomly go around making wild accusations or drawing uneducated conclusions for my own amusement.

We have bug reports being held to harmattan, and a Nokia VP saying Harmattan will not be on the N900.

Other than that.. no official word on backporting, maintaining or any other aspect of anything. I respect you're an "insider" and may have inside information I do not.. but unfortunately we are not able to base conclusion on information we do not have.

Thus, maybe you know about backporting possibilities.. or maybe you know that M6 will actually be, in some capacity, available to the N900.. but whatever it is that makes you so optimistic is not public knowledge - and that in and of itself is a problem to the consumer.

I have not yet purchased an N900, and this information gives me pause of whether or not I will. Thus, something official should be released to reassure current and/or future N900 users that they aren't garbage. Cuz so far, aside from your word, there hasn't really been anything to the contrary.. but there HAS been what I said above.

[crash16]

what can i do with that if i won't be able to install it on my n900?..i feel so dissapointed about the fact that i spend 500£ on this useless phone:(...i like it, is powerfull, but what can i do with power if there is no "brain"?

[javispedro]

I don't really call it "open development" practices.. if it were open - We'd get harmattan on the N900 and this entire debate would be a non-issue.
Sigh... if it weren't open, there wouldn't have been a word about Harmattan until the day after the N900+1 is in stores. Save for "selected parties". Thus no complains until the N900+1 comes and everyone suddenly forgets about the N900.

[fatalsaint]

Sigh... if it weren't open, there wouldn't have been a word about Harmattan until the day after the N900+1 is in stores. Save for "selected parties". Thus no complains until the N900+1 comes and everyone suddenly forgets about the N900.

Now we're debating between "some level" of openness, closedness, and fully open... all the while avoiding the point I was trying to make.

*sigh* is accurate.

[zwer]

i like it, is powerfull, but what can i do with power if there is no "brain"?

You have no idea how right you are... Tho I'm sure we are not referring to the same type of brain. :rolleyes:

[danramos]

i bought an n900 thinking that is the best phone on the market! but i think i changed my mind because you can't do anything with it. there are no applications to download....nothing! and more than that has a lot of bugs, no portatrit mode....it sucks

Although I'm sour on the N900, your complaints don't make sense. What type of applications are you looking for that you couldn't find on the N900? More importantly, being such a newly released product, you have to give it a little time for the applications to keep rolling in and before bugs are worked out in general. I can't speak to the portrait mode--I thought the N900 had a portrait mode. And then, I prefer landscape for most things myself anyway, but that's small relief to someone that prefers portrait. I wouldn't, quite yet, be so defeated by the things you're pointing out.

[crash16]

Although I'm sour on the N900, your complaints don't make sense. What type of applications are you looking for that you couldn't find on the N900? More importantly, being such a newly released product, you have to give it a little time for the applications to keep rolling in and before bugs are worked out in general. I can't speak to the portrait mode--I thought the N900 had a portrait mode. And then, I prefer landscape for most things myself anyway, but that's small relief to someone that prefers portrait. I wouldn't, quite yet, be so defeated by the things you're pointing out.


All my friends have an Iphone, it has a lot of games, they can install a proper navigation app like sygic, tomtom, IGO!!...etc.I can't do anything of this on my N900:(...

[lma]

Also, I don't understand the craze about Maemo 6. How do you know it doesn't suck?

What he said. We have had so little information about Maemo 6 so far that we can't want it (or not) rationally. If the reason for wanting it is that the version is one higher, I've got some nice amps that go to 11 to sell you :-)

It may even have LESS features than Maemo 5! (in fact if the past trends were any indicator it WILL have less features -- and some of the WONTFIXes are because of components no longer developed).


BTDTGTTS

[danramos]

Your words, based on your thoughts. Allow me to disagree. :)

Again, I recommend you to come back to this topic after the Harmattan alpha release.

I put the question to you again: are you implying that Maemo 6 would be available for the N900?

[crash16]

i understand that it is a new phone but the price the customers pay is really high as well..so we should have more things on it. Before, i had a n95 8gb and i was really impressed about it that's why i've got a new nokia phone!

[fatalsaint]

i understand that it is a new phone but the price the customers pay is really high as well..so we should have more things on it. Before, i had a n95 8gb and i was really impressed about it that's why i've got a new nokia phone!

You have full flash in a browser.. that does a lot of what probably 90ish percent of the "iphone" apps provide. You hit some very specific points, IE: map/navigation, that are known weaknesses with the N900 and should have been known before spending that kind of money.

There is a good amount of useful apps in the repos... ask your iPhone buddies to play Quake on your TV, or listen to pandora through your car without an adapter or cables.

Go to pretty much any flash-based website.. or stream a local radio station through the browser.

There are several threads around here about how to "show up" iphone users if that's your thing. I personally don't see much point in it: You either like the device and what it offers you (control, flexibility) or you don't. If you wanted an iPhone that's probably what you should have went for.

[mrojas]

I put the question to you again: are you implying that Maemo 6 would be available for the N900?

I am pretty sure that if Quim could answer, he would have answered already.

Perhaps, depending on technical-timing-financial factors, they don't know yet.

There are many possibilities... Maybe they can do it, but they would need to hire 10 more devs and need the approval of a higher up to do it. Maybe they can do it, but in order to do it, Maemo 6 wouldn't release on time and need to work on the re-scheduling. Maybe it can't be done, but they are working on some kind of trade-in which isn't ready yet to be announced.

So many things that can happen! And one thing will happen for sure: people will hold Quim and Nokia accountable for what they say, will expect their word to be fulfilled, and there will be hell if it doesn't (remember the N900 launch delay?).

[bijoux]

The device is simply not for you. Return it and get yourself an Iphone.

I bought the device for what it is (allow me to refresh your memory (http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/)). And what it is, serves my needs 100%. M6, shiny apps and games are just bonuses to me.

All my friends have an Iphone, it has a lot of games, they can install a proper navigation app like sygic, tomtom, IGO!!...etc.I can't do anything of this on my N900:(...

[danramos]

All my friends have an Iphone, it has a lot of games, they can install a proper navigation app like sygic, tomtom, IGO!!...etc.I can't do anything of this on my N900:(...

Ah, it sounds like maybe you've got that problem that loomed for YEARS in the 'Linux vs Windows' wars on the desktop. ie: I went to the store to buy a game but it won't run in Linux! (replace Linux with Macintosh or Amiga or Atari, etc.)

It's just a matter of finding this platform's rockstar killer must-have apps.

I don't have an N900, but I do have an N800 and I have no shortage of available software from games to multimedia to office programs and console (terminal) tools to do real work. Last I checked, Sygic is VERY close to being released on the N900. I think THAT will come as a GREAT comfort to you, as I understand the OviMap navigation suuuuuuuuucks. Just a short wait, I'm hoping.

In the meantime, take a wander over to the Maemo downloads site ( http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/ ) to see some of the recommended apps, if you haven't already been there. Be sure to also scour the forums for N900 app-related topics.

I hope this helps.

[fatalsaint]

I am pretty sure that if Quim could answer, he would have answered already.

Perhaps, depending on technical-timing-financial factors, they don't know yet.

There are many possibilities... Maybe they can do it, but they would need to hire 10 more devs and need the approval of a higher up to do it. Maybe they can do it, but in order to do it, Maemo 6 wouldn't release on time and need to work on the re-scheduling. Maybe it can't be done, but they are working on some kind of trade-in which isn't ready yet to be announced.

So many things that can happen! And one thing will happen for sure: people will hold Quim and Nokia accountable for what they say, will expect their word to be fulfilled, and there will be hell if it doesn't (remember the N900 launch delay?).

Precisely, which is why I don't push him.. and also why I specifically said I was sure he had insider knowledge. But then he, nor anyone, can really blame us for operating on the information, albeit maybe little (which is not our fault), that we have to work from.

[ste-phan]

I do not get it, this is supposed to be a geek phone that allows you to run some linux applications, is it not?
IF you feel the need to impress iPhone friends then open a shh terminal connection or something and install a web server or hack a bank while everybody thinks you are SMS chatting. If they are not geek enough to get it, you have the wrong friends :D


These days people are so spoiled good things hardly become a classic before everyone realises the next best thing wasn ' t worth all that waiting.


When I bought this phone I was expecting to get a better surfing experience than on E71 and it delivers. I am still keeping E71 it for navigation.
N900 is well worth the 200 Euro price difference
Contact integration, large memory, nice music player, quick menu navigation, native skype.

The only thing needed to enhance the surfing experience is the ghostery and noscript plug ins for Firefox to stop google watching the every move.

Ah yes, there is no excuse for having not the slightest web cam integration in the Skype program, Skype being such a closed program.

That said, I recon it is easy to start whining so I quit here and wish everybody a lot of enjoyment of their little toys.

[mrojas]

Ah yes, there is no excuse for having not the slightest web cam integration in the Skype program, Skype being such a closed program.

You actually got the excuse right on that precise sentence (i.e.: Skype being closed).

[danramos]

So many things that can happen! And one thing will happen for sure: people will hold Quim and Nokia accountable for what they say, will expect their word to be fulfilled, and there will be hell if it doesn't (remember the N900 launch delay?).

Then why act coy instead of simply stating as much? I'm just asking whether he's implying it. He could explain the factors (if he's allowed) or simply state that he's not allowed.

Ultimately, the posture of recommending that the community should backport the operating system features helped make it sound like the N900 is already an orphaned system. I hoped to see something to dispel that notion.

[Crashdamage]

Sure, you're making (Windows 7) great - but evidently that does absolutely nothing for those that bought (Vista) and have paid (Microsoft) now.
I could've changed that to almost any OS or software. It's just the way things are done. Even in open (or in this case, I suppose you could say semi-open) development, as qgil plainly explained, sometimes desired changes go too deep and are too difficult to implement without just saying 'Screw it, we'll hafta go for it in the next version.' All - hey, not even most - bugs and feature requests are ever fixed or added in existing versions of software, usually just what has to be done.

There's always a next version in the works, so what. Nokia may have made a mistake in being a little too forthcoming about their plans instead of keeping them secret until just before release. Many people here evidently can't handle the truth. Now there's rampant speculation and angry expectations. If the was no Maemo 6 in progress, that's when I'd be worried, not because there is. That's supposed to be good news.

But as I said before, I do agree it would be good business and very good public relations to support Maemo 6 on the N900 if at all possible. I'm guessing it will be possible, but differences between 5-6 would be significant enough it would require a reflash/reconfigure, not just a simple seamless OTA update. If so, that represents a real customer support problem for Nokia. IOW, the upgrade may be possible, but more complicated than the average Joe user can deal with and so cannot be implemented to the general public. In such a case, maybe Nokia could release a download for manual upgradng? Let's hope for the best. Have some patience.

Relax and enjoy your N900s. Upgraded or not, either way I'm a happy camper.

[fatalsaint]

That's not quite right.

Let's replace my comments with Ubuntu Intrepid and Ubuntu Karmic koala.

Sure, intrepid gets orphaned - but I can then use Karmic. Mostly, this same can be said for windows.. but with windows you pay for an upgrade. However, windows offers discounted upgrade versions of the OS for previous customers.

So for your argument to be taken seriously... Nokia would need to offer an upgrade device for cheaper to those that already have an N900... or, of course, bring M6 to the N900 and give us the option of loading it.

[danramos]

I could've changed that to almost any OS or software. It's just the way things are done. Even in open (or in this case, I suppose you could say semi-open) development, as qgil plainly explained, sometimes desired changes go too deep and are too difficult to implement without just saying 'Screw it, we'll hafta go for it in the next version.' All - hey, not even most - bugs and feature requests are ever fixed or added in existing versions of software, usually just what has to be done.

Humbug! At issue is whether a newly released piece of expensive hardware will remain supported by its vendor's distribution so soon after its release, versus being a beta-test already-orphaned device that few people should have purchased... In the wait for a release candidate device... In wait for the final REAL product made for the ordinary consumers.

That's not quite right.

Let's replace my comments with Ubuntu Intrepid and Ubuntu Karmic koala.

Sure, intrepid gets orphaned - but I can then use Karmic. Mostly, this same can be said for windows.. but with windows you pay for an upgrade. However, windows offers discounted upgrade versions of the OS for previous customers.

So for your argument to be taken seriously... Nokia would need to offer an upgrade device for cheaper to those that already have an N900... or, of course, bring M6 to the N900 and give us the option of loading it.

That's PRECISELY my point as well! THANK YOU! A faithful-brand customer discount like car dealers often do. Even the Apple folks have their goofy little stickers, clubs and discounts or SOMETHING to make them feel like a proud brand owner. I can't help feeling like Nokia doesn't give a damn that you stuck with their brand.

The comparison is also apt in that you can almost always install the new OS onto whatever computer you've already been using, too.

Relax and enjoy your N900s. Upgraded or not, either way I'm a happy camper.

Excellent, but you're not really representing the typical consumer... which is whom Nokia should be more concerned about. As others keep pointing out, there IS a lot of competition out there. I, for one, don't enjoy the N900 and so didn't waste my money. I clearly hope that the next device is better suited to me, but even if it is, I have reservations about the support issues. I want to know that the brand I purchased will not leave me feeling orphaned and raped when I have a problem.

[crash16]

Maybe you are right but what will happen if there will be released another phone with some more things the n900 doesn't have...and you won't get any updates, games, proper apps...etc. AND all the developers will forget that exists. As about sygic nav is not released because of nokia. Does anyoane have a clue why?

[Arif]

May I remind you all the old N95 got an update recently ? :D
If the N900 will be popular enough, which it seems to be, looking at the huge shortage. I guess we'll be getting support for at least 1.5 years...:) And if not. Most people buy a new phone after 1-2 years when their contract ends anyway :p

[wmarone]

versus being a beta-test already-orphaned device that few people should have purchased...
Oh so you already have inside information that Nokia has (in the past few days) dropped support for the N900 entirely? Or are you just trolling because you don't like the fact that the N900 has a cellular modem?

I, for one, don't enjoy the N900 and so didn't waste my money. I clearly hope that the next device is better suited to me, but even if it is, I have reservations about the support issues. I want to know that the brand I purchased will not leave me feeling orphaned and raped when I have a problem.
The moment the G1 (or any Android device for sale now) is dropped from sale you will see support dry up instantly. Even if you have a bug in a library that can't be upgraded without upgrading some driver, you will not get assistance.

That said, between how open Maemo is and with Mer moving forward, if a usable install for the N900 is ready before the next device is out I think a lot of complaints will be moot, and Nokia will show themselves willing to at least give the community enough support to keep their devices alive as long as possible.

Also, I don't think the days of a WiFi only internet tablet are coming back. WiFi is extremely restricting and had the N900 not come with GSM I'd probably be using an Android device now, disappointed in how limited the OS is and still thinking "if only..."

[damion]

the best answer is! "if nokia doesn't port maemo6 to N900, then this is my last NOKIA, period!" I'll go for Android 2.0 instead. At least google didn't abandon it's devices.

Eh? They've not provided updates to many of the older handsets such as the G1. There are technical limitations like free space on the root filesystem. Many apps should still be portable across the old and newer releases of Android, but it's almost exactly the same issue as M5 to M6.

[fatalsaint]

Eh? They've not provided updates to many of the older handsets such as the G1. There are technical limitations like free space on the root filesystem. Many apps should still be portable across the old and newer releases of Android, but it's almost exactly the same issue as M5 to M6.

Portable?... eh.. The Google Market works in older and newer androids alike due to the davlik VM environment...

There's a big different between native C++ apps and interpreted apps. If the M6 device is near identical on a chip-level to the N900, then the same binaries may work. Otherwise a re-compile, and a maintainer, for every app will be needed; as some developers will not want to maintain several binaries or compiles.

And the G1 isn't getting updated to 2.1+ which was discussed, but the MyTouch ('http://www.eurodroid.com/2010/01/htc-magic-mytouch-3g-will-get-android-2-1-by-the-middle-of-2010/'), the second device release mid-last year, is. HTC announced that recently. That's 8-10 months.. word around these forums (however inaccurate or accurate is unknown) is the m6 will be second half 2010.. so while the mytouch gets a new upgrade to the new OS - the N900 gets... bandaids.

[danramos]

Maybe you are right but what will happen if there will be released another phone with some more things the n900 doesn't have...and you won't get any updates, games, proper apps...etc. AND all the developers will forget that exists. As about sygic nav is not released because of nokia. Does anyoane have a clue why?

I think it'd be fine, so long as the OS is still available on both devices. Simply having different or more features on a newer device doesn't make a current device orphaned so long as the software is available for both and recognizes that there CAN be different hardware (as desktop apps do, for instance).

I thought Sygic was just awaiting approval from Nokia. Did you find out one way or the other?

Oh so you already have inside information that Nokia has (in the past few days) dropped support for the N900 entirely?
Or are you just trolling because you don't like the fact that the N900 has a cellular modem?


hehe.. that's ADORABLE, how you called someone a troll as you troll on through yourself. But no, I was asking whether that was the case.

The moment the G1 (or any Android device for sale now) is dropped from sale you will see support dry up instantly. Even if you have a bug in a library that can't be upgraded without upgrading some driver, you will not get assistance.

In the meantime, they DID get pretty good jumps in upgrades. I think you're confusing a device that was released a year and a half ago, with a device that was released less than 3 months ago.

That said, between how open Maemo is and with Mer moving forward, if a usable install for the N900 is ready before the next device is out I think a lot of complaints will be moot, and Nokia will show themselves willing to at least give the community enough support to keep their devices alive as long as possible.

Like actual customer support, parts and styluses? Your definition of support is myopic.

Also, I don't think the days of a WiFi only internet tablet are coming back. WiFi is extremely restricting and had the N900 not come with GSM I'd probably be using an Android device now, disappointed in how limited the OS is and still thinking "if only..."

Maybe (http://www.archos.com/products/imt) ... you're (http://phandroid.com/2010/01/29/msi-android-tablet-harmony/) ... right! (http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/10/27/odroid-portable-android-gaming-machine-sells-through-initial-dev-units/)

[javispedro]

Portable?... eh.. The Google Market works in older and newer androids alike due to the davlik VM environment...

No; it works on multiple devices because Android has a stable API along versions. Which can either mean "good API design abilities" (usual commercial PoV) or "very slow progress" (Linus' PoV).

(It doesn't help that we build binaries for armv7, but "flipping the switch" and starting building armv4 binaries which would even work on the 770 is way more trivial than creating a VM, and the end result might be even faster).

[Crashdamage]

Ok, my analogy is imperfect. Guilty as charged. Vista is not a N900. But it still gets the general idea across. Which is...most bugfixes and new features are added in new releases, not existing ones, be it hardware or software. Sometimes new software demands new hardware. Sometimes new hardware demands new software. The original iPhone never got retrofitted for 3G. iPhone owners cussed and wanted discounts on iPhone 3Gs. Windows 2000 never got IE7 and tabbed browsing. Users were pissed. The G1 won't ever get Android 2x. People who have a 2 month old G1 are ticked. Etc., etc. Usually, to get new stuff ya gotta buy new stuff. Whatever. You get the idea. Cutting-edge tech is a fast-moving thing. Hang on or get off the bus.

I'm quite sure that whether I ever get Maemo 6 or not, my N900 will serve me well for a long time. And that Nokia will support it with at least basic, necessary bugfixes for, at the minimum, as long as it remains on the market.

Again, I'm very happy with mine. Wouldn't trade it for anything else out there. If you're concerned, well, DON'T BUY ONE! If you're not, maybe get one, after doing your homework. If you already have one, relax and enjoy the most powerful pocket computer on the planet. But don't whine endlessly about events yet to be determined, especially if you haven't made the investment.

I'm outta this thread...it's gotten as ridiculous as Android forum stuff..."...is the G1 gonna get Cupcake? It better or I'm goin' WinMO or iPhone!" Arrrrgggghhhh!!!! I'm gonna go hotrod a carpet cleaner or something...

[raily]

just by the means how this thread explodes, how can the N900 die with maemo 5? there will be tons of N900 users out there when maemoe 6 arrives on a new phone. only a few will be willing to spend another 500€ for a new phone after just bought the N900 6 month ago.

[raddg]

This thread should die. It's like having a conversation with a macfanboy and showing the n900 to them yet they will argue to no end about the *cough* 4G iphone *cough*. Some people need to use it NOW... like in NOW...

I love my n900, 3 weeks into it after being on iphone from '07. dont miss it. dont need gps/nav, I live on an island. lol.

[russo_br]

Now, everybody should have clear that this is not a customer care channel. If you want to exercise your customer rights or plainly complain as a Nokia customer there are several ways to do it.

Yes, you are right that maemo.org should be focus on other subjects rather than complains. The problem is that customer care channels are failing to give clients the proper attention....

[mullf]

I'm sure they'll sell Maemo 6 to you all for $99.99.

[omeriko9]

Yes, you are right that maemo.org should be focus on other subjects rather than complains. The problem is that customer care channels are failing to give clients the proper attention....

Well I'm not a lawyer, but don't they have some kind of obligation to do so?

[dantonic]

Your words, based on your thoughts. Allow me to disagree. :)

Again, I recommend you to come back to this topic after the Harmattan alpha release.

Oh boy Oh boy, can't wait!! ^_^

[jsa]

Well I'm not a lawyer, but don't they have some kind of obligation to do so?

I'm very sorry to inform you that there are currently no laws governing customer care telling you whether your handset can or cannot be upgraded to the latest OS that is to be released at some point between 6 and 12 months from now..

I'm hoping for Maemo 6 on N900 as much as the next guy, but let's be reasonable?

[russo_br]

Well I'm not a lawyer, but don't they have some kind of obligation to do so?

Unfortunately I don't think it would be a legal obligation to have a GOOD customer care, like confirming if N900 will have Maemo6. Even it may not be an obligation still is a decisive aspect for retaining customers, and competitors are probably doing a better work... I guess you wouldn't even see lots of mention about N900 on Apple fanboys or Android forums...

[cenwesi]

Ok i can't believe i read this whole thread. I do believe nokia will release m6 for the n900. Here is why i think they will and again i might be wrong. It seems to me they are fixing most if not all the bugs we reported in m5 to m6. They are probably will release a new update with these fixes for m5 that will probably down the road get us ready for m6. It doesn't make sense that nokia will screw us up like this. They should remember that we the customers have more power than they do. We decide if they stay in business or not. Can you imagine if we all show up in the next meeting when they are about to announce or release the next N9x0 and complain and ***** right in the middle of the announcement how the current N900 customers have being ignored or ripped of. If we make use of the internet and start posting all over the place how the new n9x0 new customers might be treated that might not be so good for nokia's revenue down the road. All it takes is for us all to start a movement and believe me they will listen and figure something out :). Just hoping nokia doesn't make us do something THEY will regret.

[penguinbait]

Now, everybody should have clear that this is not a customer care channel. If you want to exercise your customer rights or plainly complain as a Nokia customer there are several ways to do it.


Yes, you are right that maemo.org should be focus on other subjects rather than complains. The problem is that customer care channels are failing to give clients the proper attention....


ITT and now talk.maemo.org is a support organization IMO. That is why people come here. Whether wanted or not, whether official or not. We are providing customer support 24x7.

Customer care, maybe that's different than customer support? However I hope we can continue to have open conversations about our complaints. This is how they get resolved.

[Cue]

personally I do not care if we get maemo 6, it's just a name. what I'm worried about is maemo 5 not improving simply because they want to add a given feature to 6. I understand hardware limitations so I'm not asking for the impossible but if a feature is possible and isn't added or in some cases not fixed because they would rather forget about 5 and do it for 6. Then I won't be too happy.

[Flandry]

ITT and now talk.maemo.org is a support organization IMO. That is why people come here. Whether wanted or not, whether official or not. We are providing customer support 24x7.

Customer care, maybe that's different than customer support? However I hope we can continue to have open conversations about our complaints. This is how they get resolved.

Yes, but it is important that those coming here for support realize that maemo is not Nokia. It's an easy mistake to make, and leads to extra angst and misplaced (IMO) vitriol.

[qole]

...So in some ways, in all the organisation build-up and hacking day after day, we forgot to remember about the goal - having a usable OS by the user. In practice, we didn't ask for that much relicensing and those we asked for, we got.

But the invitation still stands, I'd say. If we needed recompiles, I'm sure it would be possible to work it out somehow - especially with my role as distmaster now.

I still want to see our Distmaster guide the final bugfix version of Diablo out the door as a community SSU. That acomplishment would put a lot of these angsty threads to rest; people would see that Nokia does help our community support old devices. The next step would be getting Mer into a usable state. Really, it doesn't need to be beautiful or feature packed, but it needs to the basic stuff.

As for all the council quitting bluster -- Whatever. You got a Big Agenda you want to push? Run for council yourself.

I myself am more interested in backporting features to Maemo 5, cherry picking the interesting stuff and adding it to what I've got...

I don't want an iPhone clone, I want a handheld Linux distro. And "multi-touch capacitive screen" screams "iPhone" to me. Big fat greasy fingers sliding sloppily around a touch screen may appeal to a lot of people. Not to me. I love a high resolution screen and a precision stylus. The more you go away from the desktop paradigm of keyboard and (single, precise) pointer, the fewer productivity apps will work with any ease on the device... :(

[jvtc10]

i like too much my n900 thats enough for me!
use one for such a time and you gonna realize what i'm talking about.
and don't be nervous whit nokia, they now how to do.

[hteink.min]

i dont care about maemo6.. as long as my m5 do the front cam..gps voice navigation n potrait mode... if nokia didnt fix it.. they gonna loose the big fan.. i m not going for another nokia device nor recommend to anyone .. so far i recommended n97 to my closee friend.. he was angry bec there is no skype which being promised.. now he is enjoying it bec of free ovi maps.. but who knows nokia has all sort of suprise to keep it fans.. nokia just have to sure that its connection wth big fans are still in touch.. word of mouth is the strongest marketing tool n nokia has to realize not to disspoint its core customer

[zwer]

I don't want an iPhone clone, I want a handheld Linux distro. And "multi-touch capacitive screen" screams "iPhone" to me. Big fat greasy fingers sliding sloppily around a touch screen may appeal to a lot of people. Not to me. I love a high resolution screen and a precision stylus. The more you go away from the desktop paradigm of keyboard and (single, precise) pointer, the fewer productivity apps will work with any ease on the device... :(

Couldn't agree more. That is partly why I am very much interested in the future of N900, besides the general interest in the Maemo platform from a user/developer perspective - if the rummors are true, N900 might very well be my only Maemo device for a long time. Maybe even the one and only if Nokia decides to go with the flow. I won't buy a capacitive screen device (with multi-touch I am ok, there are precise resistive solutions out there), or a device without a hardware keyboard, no matter of the rest of the hardware. Those two are the clear deal breakers for me. I won't trade precision, haptic feedback and speed for some hipsterish gimmicky features. I'm buying a device that I want to use, not show-off.

And that is a prime reason why I'd like to see full M6 running on the N900 - if I am to develop for the Maemo platform, I don't want to limit myself to just M5, and I refuse to buy an iPhone clone, as you've put it, under any circumstance, so I'd have to rely on the SDK to testbench my apps which is nowhere near to testing om the device...

[bandora]

Lets all write an official letter to Bill Gates or anyone who's extremely rich to donate to us new Nokia phones every 6 months.. It would be like spending pennies for them.. :D

[GeneralAntilles]

Yes, but it is important that those coming here for support realize that maemo is not Nokia. It's an easy mistake to make, and leads to extra angst and misplaced (IMO) vitriol.

s/maemo/maemo.org/

Maemo (capital M) is Nokia, maemo.org (lowercase m, .org) is not.

[draco.bdn]

It's hard to believe that Nokia will ignore the N900.
The Maemo 6 device will be shipped in arround 8 months?
Here is a mass of users who didn't get their N900 yet and still waiting for it.

Nokia is not so high in business that they can "afford" a lack in customer support right now.

[torshind]

In Italy, n900 has never arrived in telephone shops. The only place you can find it is Nokia shop. IMO things are just starting to get interesting around here.

[filbert]

Yep reading this thread can bring you down alright... but not me! I still love this device and was planning to changer it next year/when the next one comes out anyway so I will just get on with enjoying this here and now.
To me nothing comes close to it and that makes me happy.

Well said!

[HangLoose]

just a tip for people that might be feeling screwed by nokia: sell the n900 and buy something else that suites your needs.

like someone else said, dont make your life so terrible. you should enjoy the device. if a cell phone is making you start thinking about plots, conspiracy theories and boycots over a device that is working perfectly fine something is clearly wrong...

and it is not with the phone.

[bbns]

um ... I don't know why you guys are so sure it will come out in 6 months even I do not know either. Making software is not something easy enough to say 'it's gonna finish in ## of months'.

By the way, don't you guys ever see Qt4.6 is in beta on N900? And did you see we ever slow down the progress on M5? You can check here: http://maemo.gitorious.org/

For M6, you can even check the code here: http://qt.gitorious.org/maemo-6-ui-framework

It's pretty open. Why said you guys being ignored when we post day-to-day progress there? :-)

[Flandry]

Thanks, that's exactly my point. :D

I've finally gotten around to using upper and lowercase for the name appropriately after a few months, but how's a random joe off the street to have any clue that maemo.org ("maemo") isn't the same as Maemo, ergo part of Nokia? A big subtitle next to maemo.org in the header banner "maemo's not Maemo"?

[GeneralAntilles]

Thanks, that's exactly my point. :D

I've finally gotten around to using upper and lowercase for the name appropriately after a few months, but how's a random joe off the street to have any clue that maemo.org ("maemo") isn't the same as Maemo, ergo part of Nokia? A big subtitle next to maemo.org in the header banner "maemo's not Maemo"?

Well, there's no "maemo". Just maemo.org and Maemo. ;)

[nwerneck]

If Maemo is supposed to be a mobile Linux distribution, it must be possible to always try to run newer stuff on older hardware. If a program like a 3D desktop requires more powerful hardware, the old users should just be able to opt out of installing it, just like we can choose between Gnome and Xfce (and Awesome in my case) on the desktop.

There are lots of improvements that don't relate to processor-heavy eye-candy, and we musn't let these new flashy possibilities be confused with the whole of what a distro is supposed to be.

I think the whole problem is that it's too damn _difficult_ to manage this. It's just easier to focus on single devices. We were lucky to have been able to upgrade the N800. Though some people have disliked it...

Only something like Mer will bring us the support for multiple devices. It just doesn't fit the industry setting to think so wide.

Myself, I bought an N800 6 months ago. It was just what I wanted, for a nice price (450 BRL, 250 USD). There are just no alternatives to it, they are either too simple, or too featureful and expensive, or simply don't actually exist (e.g. Pandora).

I was lucky with my timing. I had no sort of mobile gadget at first. Then I got the N800 in its maturity, and for a good price. Now I'll probably be able to get something else just by the time “step 5” comes by. I hope by then we have figured out how the next decade is supposed to look like! :)

[c_legaspi]

i was thinking about buying this phone when it first came out but im kind of glad that i held off, especially when my current phone is still on par with the new phones(its 1 1/2 years old).

i would be disappointed if n900 wouldnt be upgradeable to maemo 6 but then again there are a lot in this community that will somehow make it work.

usually a new os means upgraded hardware. sure it might work on the n900 but it may run a bit slower. i would be more concerned if maemo 6 apps would run just as good or be backward compatible on maemo 5 platform.

[aironeous]

Will centipede, dig dug, pac man, stargate, tempest and every other arcade game that made money from the 80's and 90's get ignored?

Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_HXUhShhmY
and
blublu.org
stop motion animation

[sgbirch]

I still have faith in Nokia. I mean they have to support a device I paid 600 € for, right?

Errr ... no they dont have to.

[attila77]

If Maemo is supposed to be a mobile Linux distribution, it must be possible to always try to run newer stuff on older hardware. If a program like a 3D desktop requires more powerful hardware, the old users should just be able to opt out of installing it, just like we can choose between Gnome and Xfce (and Awesome in my case) on the desktop.

There is nothing preventing that on Maemo. AFAIK you are free to install XFCE, KDE or any other environment your hacking heart desires (and suffer the integration problems that brings).

The trouble is that here people expect the opposite of what you say - they do NOT want just working components (which is precisely what the officially announced Qt4.6 gives you and were perceived as 'bandaids' by some in this very thread), but want an uncompromising Maemo 6 in it's fullest. That's the problem. New/prospective N900 owners without the linux/tech background are more likely to think in black and white - I get Maemo 6 and all will be dandy, or I don't get Maemo 6 and the N900 is brick and Nokia sucks. The reality is, however, that neither of those statements is true, but that is a message people don't (want to) hear.

[kojacker]

Hello all, my n900 arrived yesterday and my first post here.

I like my shiny new n900, but it must be said it is missing a lot from what I'd expect a modern phone to have. In fact, it's missing a lot from what ancient phones had, and budget models too. Other than a brief flirtation with Sony Ericsson, all my handsets have been Nokia. In the drawer beside me I have 4 Nokia handsets reaching back to the 3210, and that was the last Nokia phone I had which didnt have mms. I've only had the phone for a day, but there are a lot of bugs and features missing that you'd expect in 2010 - but there's no point going over that old ground again. Some of them I knew about before I bought it, and some were an unpleasant surprise. My hope is that Nokia will support fixes for these.

I must say, since visiting maemo.org my faith in Nokia has been shaken. It does feel like everything is on hold until the next maemo release, but like one of the nasty kids from Willy Wonka's chocolate factory I want them now. There's a guy called Andre Klapper on here, I suspect in real life I would like him. I'd enjoy sitting down for a pint with him and listening to him talk about all he knows. But right now due to the internet I hate him. Every bug report I read that he has labelled "invalid" or "wont fix" or otherwise 'learn to lump it lol' is like a dagger in my Nokia loving heart. I actually googled his name to see what he looks like, so in my brain I could have a better image of my nemesis. He has one of them little devil beards, a blonde one no less, so now whenever I see him dismissing the next frustrating bug as 'invalid' I'll imagine grabbing those tufts and tugging it off his chin.

I suspect there won't be much improvement now until maemo 6, it's not so far away and all resources will now be focused on it. However I do think we'll get some version of it on our n900. In the meantime we'll have to grit our teeth and bear the frustrating scroll or the glitchy UI, in the hope of better things to come. Or, maybe some bright spark in the community will be able to come up with something in the meantime. But this project needs to be Nokia driven. I see a hungry Google pushing Android, Apple continuing to improve the iPhone, Nokia are still putting all their weight behind Symbian (the same managers plotting Nokia's future direction are probably the same who have to justify the cost of purchasing it ofcourse), and Andre Klapper's mean expression hovering over the future of Maemo, "invalid" stamp in hand, like the mean bank manager from "It's a wonderful life". Where's our George Bailey?

Now Im going to look for posts from that kathy girl who has all them pics of happy bears around the place, to help cheer me up.

[ajflex]

remember the raw power arm cortex 8a

GENERAL 2G Network GSM 850 / 900 / 1800 / 1900
3G Network HSDPA 1700 / 2100 / 900
Announced 2009, August
Status Available. Released 2009, November
SIZE Dimensions 110.9 x 59.8 x 18 mm, 113 cc
Weight 181 g
DISPLAY Type TFT resistive touchscreen, 16M colors
Size 800 x 480 pixels, 3.5 inches
- Proximity sensor for auto turn-off
- Accelerometer sensor for auto-rotate
- Full QWERTY keyboard
SOUND Alert types Vibration; MP3 ringtones
Speakerphone Yes, with stereo speakers
- 3.5 mm audio jack
MEMORY Phonebook Practically unlimited entries and fields, Photocall
Call records Detailed, max 30 days
Internal 32 GB storage, 256 MB RAM
Card slot microSD, up to 16GB, buy memory
DATA GPRS Class 32
EDGE Class 32
3G HSDPA, 10Mbps; HSUPA, 2Mbps
WLAN Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g, DLNA
Bluetooth Yes, v2.1 with A2DP
Infrared port Yes
USB Yes, v2.0 microUSB
CAMERA Primary 5 MP, 2576x1936 pixels, Carl Zeiss optics, autofocus, Dual LED flash, video light
Features Geo-tagging
Video Yes, WVGA(848 x 480)@25fps
Secondary Yes, VGA
FEATURES OS Maemo 5
CPU ARM Cortex A8 600 MHz, PowerVR SGX graphics
Messaging SMS (threaded view), Email, Push Email, IM
Browser xHTML, HTML, RSS feeds
Radio Stereo FM radio (via third party software); FM transmitter
Games Yes, 5 + downloadable
Colors Black
GPS Yes, with A-GPS support; Ovi Maps
Java No
- Skype and GoogleTalk VoIP integration
- MP3/WMA/WAV/eAAC+ music player
- WMV/RealVideo/MP4/AVI/XviD/DivX video player
- TV-out
- PDF document viewer
- Photo editor
- Adobe Flash Player 9.4
BATTERY Standard battery, Li-Ion 1320 mAh (BL-5J)
Stand-by Up to 96 h
Talk time Up to 9 h (2G) / Up to 5 h (3G)
MISC SAR US 0.92 W/kg (head) 0.82 W/kg (body)
SAR EU 0.80 W/kg (head)

[fatalsaint]

we will be getting maemo 6 upgragde it is fully compatible to n900 arm cortex a8 gpu
according research it coming to Nokia n900
but some third party apps thats come will not be free you wouold of to pay for some games and apps they builbing it around ovi besides what inside
i will repeated maemo 6 will be on nokia n900 it will be availabile around the second half 2010 some adobe 10.1 qt4.6 ruby
it will also be open linux(maemo 6) is more powerfull

Really???

I've heard Rumor ('http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=496467&postcount=251') of a VP ('http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=500722&postcount=289) at the Nokia N-series project that may disagree with you.

[nicola.mfb]

Not totally true, at least for me.
Of course I'd like to see harmattan on the n900, but I'll survive happy and will not consider my new device a brick only if maemo5 will get upgrades and enhancements.
I'm speaking about ovi maps 3, umts/skype video calls, flash player upgrades, phone enhancements (like the easy differentiation of ringtones per group/user).
But it seems that ovi maps 3, for example, is scheduled for harmattan only, that's the only reason of my interest in this thread!

My2c.

Niko

[dyce]

what are the chances Mer will be compatible with Maemo 5 and Maemo 6 apps? Maybe the community can just ditch Maemo for Mer?

[inidrog]

Not because of the person you mentioned, but yes, before Nokia get the finger out of its a** or even promote a spokes person tha that actually can stand behind his/hers words, N900 in my and whom ever actually wonders if this is a buy or rabbit-hole device should stay away. I did not get what i most honestly thought I bought.

[FranzDages]

i bought an n900 thinking that is the best phone on the market! but i think i changed my mind because you can't do anything with it. there are no applications to download....nothing! and more than that has a lot of bugs, no portatrit mode....it sucks

No apps? I've had my N900 for a little over a week. In that time, the number of downloads at Maemo.org had grown by around 20. Even if these are all updates to software, that is still progess. Yes, there are no fart apps, or the other 10,000,000,000,000 or whatever junk apps iPhone has, but quite a few of those aren't needed as we have Flash on the N900. Thus we can go to the actual web page and not have to use an app. Not to sound nasty, but if all you want is something to show off to your friends, than the N900 possibly isn't for you.

[Catacylsm]

oh god....right sooo

has nokia officially dropped support for the n900?
has nokia said that m6 will/wont run on the n900?

because all i see here is pointless speculation about the devices purpose and lifetime,

and please dont use iphone and n900 in the same sentence, they are both worlds appart but i'd easily class the n900 as the uprated device.

the fact is we don't know what will happen, but we do know there is a firm maemo community and that devices get nowhere without the community support, have faith people! i will have my device for two years on contract and ive been using it more then my main lappy, im attached to this thing and cant wait for future releases!

[RevdKathy]

Now Im going to look for posts from that kathy girl who has all them pics of happy bears around the place, to help cheer me up.

That Kathy girl with the bears is here. Actually, Andre and the bug team are pretty good guys, Even the ones who seem fierce and bad-tempered round here are good blokes when you meet them. They have to be quite strong to tame a monster like Bugzilla.

I think Nokia will go on ironing out bugs. There are rumours of at least a couple more updates (one minor, one more major) during the spring. What I suspect they will do less of is adding more features.

What you have to ask yourself is why you bought the device: was it for what it did have, or for what you convinced yourself it might?

See, I bought a feature set, knowing that it met *most* of my wishes/needs. And there wasn't a device out there with all of them. So I'm not really disappointed for what it doesn't have. And it will still have those things even when Maemo 6 comes out. If I'd waited for Maemo 6, then Maemo 7 would have been just around the corner. ;)

I bought it for what it does now. And it does. The community is adding features, but I don't expect Nokia will. I do expect them to fix the worst of the bugs. ;)

And Qt 4.6 is awesome. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1i0nDZgXvE

(And it definitely runs on n900 - it's running 'sheep' on My Mo ;) )

You have an amazing device in your hand... no, put that away! I mean your n900. You have the best spec and the best software right now. We might all be blowed up by an hemorrhoid before Maemo 6 arrives.

[Aelhadidy]

After starting this thread and reading your helpful replies ,I have some positive thoughts:
What do we need exactly from Nokia (except another one or two firmware updates)? almost nothing!
-After seeing windows 3.11 / windows 98 / android running on N900, I'm almost sure that maemo 6 will be ported to N900 somehow unofficially.
when this happen, the whole problem will be solved (although this depends on the degree of compatibility after porting)
-Even if maemo 6 will not be ported to N900, currently Qt4.6 is being ported so maemo 6 apps written using Qt4.6 will be compatible with N900 and this ensures that n900 will have access to new apps after releasing maemo 6 and will not be dead as we fear.

So I think that the worst case of Nokia to ignore N900 is not a big problem.
Am I right in these thoughts or I am too optimistic?

[RevdKathy]

After starting this thread and reading your helpful replies ,I have some positive thoughts:
What do we need exactly from Nokia (except another one or two firmware updates)? almost nothing!
-After seeing windows 3.11 / windows 98 / android running on N900, I'm almost sure that maemo 6 will be ported to N900 somehow unofficially.
when this happen, the whole problem will be solved (although this depends on the degree of compatibility after porting)
-Even if maemo 6 will not be ported to N900, currently Qt4.6 is being ported so maemo 6 apps written using Qt4.6 will be compatible with N900 and this ensures that n900 will have access to new apps after releasing maemo 6 and will not be dead as we fear.

So I think that the worst case of Nokia to ignore N900 is not a big problem.
Am I right in these thoughts or I am too optimistic?

I'd say you were spot on. ;)

[Catacylsm]

noope your dam right ael , faith in the hardware software and the community will lead to high praised results!

i have no doubts at all :)

[kojacker]

That Kathy girl with the bears is here.

Hi that Kathy with the bears :)

Actually, Andre and the bug team are pretty good guys,
Yes, he probably is and I don't really hate him, but he'll have to do until I can find somebody who actually deserves it. I do still wish to tug his devil beard though, nothing you can say will quench that urge.

I think Nokia will go on ironing out bugs. There are rumours of at least a couple more updates (one minor, one more major) during the spring. What I suspect they will do less of is adding more features.

Yes, I think you're right. But I wants moar features.. MOAR!!

What you have to ask yourself is why you bought the device: was it for what it did have, or for what you convinced yourself it might?

Both of the above


You have an amazing device in your hand... no, put that away!

Spoilsport.

I mean your n900. You have the best spec and the best software right now. We might all be blowed up by an hemorrhoid before Maemo 6 arrives.
I have an amazing device in both hands, I've been checking out that thread about making certain videos invisble...

Not really ;)

[RevdKathy]

Hi that Kathy with the bears :)

I have an amazing device in both hands, I've been checking out that thread about making certain videos invisble...

Not really ;)

Ceiling cat is watching you. ;)

[blue_led]

Before N900 a had Fujitsu T830. after a year of using T830 i want something better than it but until now i have no choice
Now I have large screen, usb2.0 but no host mode, great storage , decent camera, some extras like FM rx/Tx.
T830 have almost no support from fujitsu or siemens :o and it have lousy range of applications but iGo6 work great on it and i travel over the Europe guided by my T830.
I want from my N900 running app like IGo8, decent ( working ) imaps mail client, fast office suite ( with edit), remote desktop, secure connection to my servers and some games. until now n900 is 90% close to my desire. All of us we are a snapshoot on Nokia production plan/ range. Support from mother company would be gread. Decent default applications also would be great, bug fighting is energy consumming task. It is so hard to make bug free app. over the entire range of maemo ? Can we inherit app from previous release, bug corected ?
Is only a matter of will ! Hope Nokia have .
I love my N900, maemo so i took N810

[jsa]

I've been wondering about this.. does the N900 have all enablers required to implement the Maemo 6 security framework as described in these slides http://www.slideshare.net/peterschneider/maemo-6-platform-security ? OMAP3430 data sheet mentions ARM Trustzone support but I have way too little knowledge about security and related sw/hw to really draw any conclusions either way.

By the way, the author of those slides answered some questions about the design here http://wiki.maemo.org/MaemoSecurity

[wmarone]

I've been wondering about this.. does the N900 have all enablers required to implement the Maemo 6 security framework as described in these slides http://www.slideshare.net/peterschneider/maemo-6-platform-security ? OMAP3430 data sheet mentions ARM Trustzone support but I have way too little knowledge about security and related sw/hw to really draw any conclusions either way.

By the way, the author of those slides answered some questions about the design here http://wiki.maemo.org/MaemoSecurity

Ah "Security" and "Trustzone", aka "How your hardware is used by a 3rd party against you."

[Catacylsm]

i definatelyagree blue, a decent sat nav app would be great along with nokias personal support of the device! i would like to see flash ten support on the device (i think flash ten alpha for linus was released) that way our hardware would go even further with flash content! lol

this things a great entertainment platform

[attila77]

But it seems that ovi maps 3, for example, is scheduled for harmattan only, that's the only reason of my interest in this thread!


That's exactly what I'm saying - you ask for one thing assuming that it ensures another. Maemo 5 might as well run Harmattan applications at some point. Harmattan itself might not run well on the N900 for whatever reason (multitouch? memory? DRM?). I don't (necessarily) want Maemo 6. I want next generation apps on the N900 all right, but I leave to Nokia to decide whether Maemo 6 or a Qt-steroidized Maemo 5 is better suited for that - I simply do not have the inside knowledge to judge that choice at this point.

[cheve]

Any device that ever got made by any company is going to be ignored by its maker -- eventually. So why sweat it??? You have the device now, if the spec meet your needs or you are able to tolerate the features(ie. those that are important to you) that are missing now; then enjoy the unit to the fullness. If it is not your cup of tea, then go ahead and sell it - chalk up the experiences as a lesson learnt.

Cheers,

[YoDude]

This issue has picked up steam because of one thing... "Free Maps"...

That's it... If that announcement wasn't made or if the majority of those that are crying now were simply given free navigation, (or any freakin' navigation for that matter) we wouldn't see as much turmoil. Premature demands for statements regarding backward compatibility would not be as loud.

Many users may believe that they are stuck with what they now have and that the current OVI maps application on their N900's, as well as other OVI products like OVI Suite (http://discussions.nokiausa.com/discussions/board/message?message.uid=588120) will not see any more improvements. Regardless of turn-by-turn navigation, things like not being able to save locations and the absence of an on screen keyboard makes the N900 version more like Cripple or Demo-ware. Certainly not a finished product.

For this I blame Nokia and not Maemo. In fact I blame Nokia for the whole OVI debacle with regard to Maemo. It's as if one side of their house has no idea about what the other side does. Or worse, someone like "Joe Isuzu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Isuzu)" is running the marketing campaigns.

If the purpose of this was just to be able to say "Yup, the N900 has maps." then they could have saved us all a lot of space by just pointing to a preinstalled, JPG image of a map of the world or suttin' instead. :rolleyes:
... it would be about as useful.

***

As someone said earlier, "How do we know M6 doesn't suck?"

Perhaps things like OVI and increased contributions from commercial developers will be better on Harmattan because areas of M6 will be less open to us... :eek:

[blue_led]

i definatelyagree blue, a decent sat nav app would be great along with nokias personal support of the device! i would like to see flash ten support on the device (i think flash ten alpha for linus was released) that way our hardware would go even further with flash content! lol

this things a great entertainment platform

firefox mobile for n900 with flash addon is ok. it work.

[Catacylsm]

Oh i agree, im running flash content flawlessly, but flash 10 (on net tops is allowing HD video playback from a once stuttery enviroment.)

The performance gain is pretty massive.

[johnel]

http://wiki.maemo.org/MaemoSecurity

This is some scary sh**!

If Maemo 6 includes this "security framework" then I am keeping my n900 the way it is!


What is "Open Mode" and can it be revoked remotely?

"Open" mode is when an unsigned kernel has been booted. Disabling it remotely would, presumably, require a change to the bootloader. See slide #??? --Jaffa 11:36, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Can network operators restrict you switching to Open mode?

Like if a device is sim-locked to a particular network, does the device get locked down in closed DRM mode only too? Can you always switch to open mode?

Elena Reshetova: If the device is SIM-locked, operator can restrict you to the usage of one particular kernel (slide 5), for example the one, which was shipped with a device. However, it is up to you to decide to buy the device from the operator or form the Nokia store.

I've changed my mind - I don't want Maemo 6 on my n900!

Maybe Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer) is the way forward.

[fred123]

Elena Reshetova: If the device is SIM-locked, operator can restrict you to the usage of one particular kernel (slide 5), for example the one, which was shipped with a device
Would this let an operator control what applications coulld/could not be installed on the device?

[jsa]

http://wiki.maemo.org/MaemoSecurity

This is some scary sh**!

If Maemo 6 includes this "security framework" then I am keeping my n900 the way it is!

I've changed my mind - I don't want Maemo 6 on my n900!

Maybe Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer) is the way forward.

Out of curiosity, why? You can buy always buy it unlocked. The "open mode" will be available at least on unlocked phones and as far as I understood it, it's pretty much like what you get with Maemo 5 now.

It's up to each one to decide whether they think that's worth having and they do have the choice. If Nokia wants to take this mainstream they have to woo operators(possibility to sim lock) and they have to woo companies(possibility to use DRM).

I have a bad feeling this thread is about to derail though, which is not what I intended with my original question.

[ajflex]

i want maemo 6 and its full state on nokia n900 why maemo 5 will always be incomplete maemo 6 supports landscape and portrait mode and much more goodie if i know that i would bought a incomplete device i would supported $700 us is alot of money to support something which is incomplete
if nokia n900 dont put maemo6 on the n900 they will be lose one of their biggest i from nokia 6230 6680 6681 3230 n91 n93 n73 n93i n800 n96 n95 n85 n86 n97 and currently n900 and nokia 2680 i love nokia phones that alot of support please nokia give us maemo 6 and adobe 10.1 and all the goodies that comeswith it, which is more production ready thank

[chowdahhead]

It was inevitable that this would happen. For Maemo to propagate and compete with Android and Apple, which both have DRM built in, than it would eventually have to adopt DRM too. It won't get support from content providers without it, and cell providers are insistent on having control of the devices on their network. At least Nokia is being pragmatic about it and offering an unsigned mode for the phone operate in. And I hate the term "trusted computing", it's like calling the IRS my personal financial advisor.

Also DRM is usually based in software, so it's adoption shouldn't prevent moving the n900 to Maemo6.

[johnel]

Out of curiosity, why? You can buy always buy it unlocked. The "open mode" will be available at least on unlocked phones and as far as I understood it, it's pretty much like what you get with Maemo 5 now.

It's up to each one to decide whether they think that's worth having and they do have the choice. If Nokia wants to take this mainstream they have to woo operators(possibility to sim lock) and they have to woo companies(possibility to use DRM).

I have a bad feeling this thread is about to derail though, which is not what I intended with my original question.

Just looked at the slides pointed at to from the original post (http://wiki.maemo.org/MaemoSecurity) it appears the DRM aspect is indeed "optional".

Generally should not be an issue if you buy the device directly from Nokia.

The question is if you decide to use an open source version of the kernel you will not be able to use any software that signs itself to the security framework.

Worst case scenario would be something like the phone/modem is proprietary and is "security-enabled". Would this mean you may not be able to access it via an open source kernel?

I don't expect Nokia would lock-out something essential like this but it does raise a few questions.

I suppose all we can do is wait and see what Maemo 6 brings.

[Stskeeps]

http://wiki.maemo.org/MaemoSecurity

This is some scary sh**!

If Maemo 6 includes this "security framework" then I am keeping my n900 the way it is!



I've changed my mind - I don't want Maemo 6 on my n900!

Maybe Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer) is the way forward.

If the security framework is open sourced and available to non-Nokia signed kernels, Mer would probably have it too. Heck, I wouldn't mind it on my PC.

[jsa]

The question is if you decide to use an open source version of the kernel you will not be able to use any software that signs itself to the security framework.

Worst case scenario would be something like the phone/modem is proprietary and is "security-enabled". Would this mean you may not be able to access it via an open source kernel?

From the wiki page again..

Q: Cellular is marked as a protected ressource in the slide. Can one still use it (phone, data, sms etc.) while running in open mode? While runnin a rebuilt kernel?

A: If you use your own kernel, you are the one to set the security policy for the device, meaning that your SW in this case can make calls, send sms and so on (for example). Please note that the list of protected resources on the slide is given just as example (to show the possible granularity level), so it doesn't mean that we would have exactly these resources.

I suppose all we can do is wait and see what Maemo 6 brings.

Or better, contact Elena again. Communication, u know? :)

[qgil]

The Mawemo 6 security framework has been discussed at length at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32672 - please continue there that discussion.

We'll merge all the "Maemo 6 in the N900" threads to this one since currently there is a lot of duplicated discussions.

[zwer]

I have no problem with the DRM. Well, actually I do, I would never buy DRMed content, but I understand the need for it - it's hard to convince content publishers that DRM is from a practical point of view pure BS - the ones that care not to pay (pirates and pirated content consumers) will still get that content one way or the other, while the legit paying customers will be treated as criminals upfront and will have a big inconvenience in consuming their rightfully owned/licensed content (it actually makes legit customers to turn to pirates from time to time when they cannot get the content they paid in a way they want). So, since most (luckily not all) content providers go haywire when they hear `the platform is fully open and supports no DRM of any kind`, one has to cater to their needs if they are to come to their platform. Yes, it's stupid, all the things I said still stand, but do you really think that some manager that decides about those things from some major content provider even knows the problems with DRM or how it works? No, he has instilled mantra `no glove (DRM), no love`, and in today's market if you want to draw people to your platform you need to have plenty of content available on it. That's just the way it is.

What I have a problem with is the way it is to be implemented, judging from that wiki page - you need to use a different kernel for `opened` and for `closed` mode. That's even more of an inconvenience than the DRM itself. There are plenty of ways to implement DRM (at the expense of CPU/memory, tho) without killing the openness. After all, typical DRM implementations work on widely opened and documented types of encryption - it's the keys that are kept as secret. What I'd propose is to move the DRM support from the kernel into additional software layer (or at least a kernel module that can be loaded/unloaded run-time), just the way it is on today's computers. There are plenty of ways to do that, from encrypted partitions/folders, to real-time checking with DRM servers (after all, it's meant to be `always connected`), to hardware implementations. All of which wouldn't require you to boot into a different kind of system whenever you want to consume DRM content, and would allow you to enjoy the openness and the DRM content at the same time.

I hope that the people that decide about that have thought long and hard about the implications and inconveniences that could come from dual-kernel system as a DRM implementation. I'm not sure that they could even do that given the GPLv2 on the linux kernel.

edit: Sorry, qgil, just saw your post. If I have something more to say about the security implementation I'll take it there.

[ajflex]

we want maemo6 on nokia n900,
we want maemo6 on nokia n900,
we want maemo6 on nokia n900,we want maemo6 on nokia n900
we want maemo6 on nokia n900, we want maemo6 on nokia n900

[ajflex]

i want maemo 6 os better to have a compete maemo os than incomplete one

[ZShakespeare]

After further consideration, I would say that maemo 6 not being on the n900 would be a bad thing only if:

1. maemo 6 apps can not be run on maemo 5. Since both will be using QT this seems unlikely. Also, the term 'Backports' comes to mind.

2. Nokia decides to focus on developing maemo 6 rather than giving us our portrait mode, better virtual keyboard. etc. Given Nokia's treatment of Symbian, Hanlon's razor may apply here.

[nightfire]

Am I the only one who doesn't care about portrait mode at all?

In fact, am I the only one who is annoyed that the phone app switches the phone to portrait mode if the keyboard isn't out?

I guess I don't understand, because frankly I think everything should be in landscape mode. Maybe I have big hands but I have no trouble operating it with one hand...

[slender]

Am I the only one who doesn't care about portrait mode at all?

In fact, am I the only one who is annoyed that the phone app switches the phone to portrait mode if the keyboard isn't out?

I guess I don't understand, because frankly I think everything should be in landscape mode. Maybe I have big hands but I have no trouble operating it with one hand...

This is probably OT but you do not understand. What then if it had ALSO portrait mode? Should you care? I would care even thought I can live without portrait mode, just because it´s must have option for some people and nice to have for quite many so more customers for this device and probably more developers for applications and that makes me happy.

Have to admit that sometimes I would like to use my phone with one hand on go, but right now its quite hard.

[gerbick]

The merging of the threads has confused me a bit...

[ZShakespeare]

I've had mine for a couple weeks now, and almost daily I come across a situation where I wish I could bang out a quick sms with one hand, mostly because I am carrying something in the other. Also my phone app only goes into portrait mode when the device is turned on it's side. There is an option for that in the phone's pulldown menu.

[nightfire]

I've had mine for a couple weeks now, and almost daily I come across a situation where I wish I could bang out a quick sms with one hand, mostly because I am carrying something in the other. Also my phone app only goes into portrait mode when the device is turned on it's side. There is an option for that in the phone's pulldown menu.

Ah, man... thanks! :) Didn't know about that menu option.

[sairon]

Maemo 6 will most likely be released for the N900 for various reasons. As already pointed out multi touch is a non issue, if you can't design an OS which doesn't fail as soon as a new input method arrives "you're doing something wrong".

If we entertain the thought that the N900 has been doing pretty well for being an N series device ( which judging by the activity on the boards and numerous rumors, it has ), then from a business pov it wouldn't make sense to leave the N900 behind unless the next device is very far of. It would be a disaster from a PR pov for a OS whose whole point is leveraging the open source community since their developer workforce by and large is also their market.

For me personally, I won't upgrade to a new phone in a very very long time for various reasons. The largest being that I believe the N900 will be the last device which has the hardware setup I want ( physical keyboard and resistive screen, multi touch is **** and I want the precision of the stylus ).

[mmlado]

http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/ovi_maps_turn_by_turn_navigation/

in development. Milestone: Harmattan

One more nail in N900's coffin. :(

[bandora]

<complain>

Only thing I don't get here is the Sygic move, I know it's a different company than Nokia, but how come we have to pay money for Sygic just because we are on the Maemo platform while the Symbian fellas can enjoy free navigation right now.. :S

</complain>

Anyways, I am too hoping that Maemo 6 will be available for the N900..

So the Maemo 6 Alpha SDK is going to be released when exactly? Q1 2010?

[Helmuth]

One more nail in N900's coffin. :(

If you're only searching nails, I've got a big one for you: Email: Keep Sent and Drafts on IMAP server (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/keep_sent_and_drafts_on_imap_server)

[Rob1n]

<complain>

Only thing I don't get here is the Sygic move, I know it's a different company than Nokia, but how come we have to pay money for Sygic just because we are on the Maemo platform while the Symbian fellas can enjoy free navigation right now.. :S

</complain>
Why do I have to pay for Windows when the Linux people enjoy a free OS? Forget Sygic - if you like the software and think it's better than Ovi maps, then buy it (when it comes out). The presence (or absence) of Sygic has no effect on whether Nokia will produce free navigation for the N900.

My suspicion is that, when development of Ovi Maps for m6 is complete, they'll make a decision on making it available for m5. Until that point they don't know whether it'll work, or even whether it's worth it (if m6 is out shortly afterwards, and will be available for the N900, why bother).

[mmlado]

If you're only searching nails, I've got a big one for you: Email: Keep Sent and Drafts on IMAP server (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/keep_sent_and_drafts_on_imap_server)

That is a really a big one. :(

[kojacker]

<complain>

Only thing I don't get here is the Sygic move, I know it's a different company than Nokia, but how come we have to pay money for Sygic just because we are on the Maemo platform while the Symbian fellas can enjoy free navigation right now.. :S

</complain>

I think it's a little unfair. From my understanding, the move to make latest Maps free on Symbian is a licensing issue - the software was already built and there so it was matter of making it "free". It is not built or available on Maemo, and would therefore require resources to make it in the first place before it can be provided along with the handset.

I do have my suspicions, however, if it were available to be released today would Nokia hold it back to allow Sygic "first shot" so to speak.

[bxbomber]

as long as we get backwords compatibility with applications i figure most people can live that.

hopefully with qt 4.6 running on the n900 it'll ensure that most apps can run on both.

[hteink.min]

sometime.. it's very hard to realize.. you been cheated by the biggest mobile phone company you ve been loyal for ages!! ******** ovi maps.. front cam doesnt work.. dissapointed

[danramos]

just a tip for people that might be feeling screwed by nokia: sell the n900 and buy something else that suites your needs.

like someone else said, dont make your life so terrible. you should enjoy the device. if a cell phone is making you start thinking about plots, conspiracy theories and boycots over a device that is working perfectly fine something is clearly wrong...

and it is not with the phone.

DONE! Got a Droid. Thanks for the tip but I think, as someone else put it, it's also a matter of feeling like your brand loyalty in Nokia has been stomped on. I'm primarily talking about the lack of customer service, lack of loyalty programs and the feeling that your loyalty buys nothing at all, despite the costs.

Honestly, Nokia doesn't NEED to do anything special nor does it even have to provide any real form of customer service. But then, by the same reasoning, I don't feel that I should remain loyal to the brand that isn't loyal to their customers. Bam! Done. I'm hanging on to my N800 until it either dies or I sell it to someone who doesn't mind dealing with Nokia. I, for one, have had a much better experience of walking into my local Verizon store to actually get surprisingly excellent service with my Droid, so far. I can't say that I've ever had anything nearly as positive to report with my N800 (which I ended up having to re-purchase since Nokia, no anyone else, would sell me the parts I needed to fix it).

You're absolutely right, though, and you're providing the best reason for many of us, who aren't N900 or Nokia, to go out and have a more pragmatic look at the competition and how it might fit our needs better, or else come back and buy that N900.

Why do I have to pay for Windows when the Linux people enjoy a free OS? Forget Sygic - if you like the software and think it's better than Ovi maps, then buy it (when it comes out). The presence (or absence) of Sygic has no effect on whether Nokia will produce free navigation for the N900.

My suspicion is that, when development of Ovi Maps for m6 is complete, they'll make a decision on making it available for m5. Until that point they don't know whether it'll work, or even whether it's worth it (if m6 is out shortly afterwards, and will be available for the N900, why bother).

I'm not sure I understand why anyone should complain that the price is higher. Personally, I'm much more thankful that it's available at all and I would feel justified to pay the higher price for something that was ported over so well. There's FREE.. and then there's CHEAP. They're not necessarily the same. Ovi Maps is both. It would be worse if it wasn't free. Sygic is, thankfully, neither--even though it would be nice if it were inexpensive or free--but I'll take not being CHEAP over free any day.

[GeneralAntilles]

You're absolutely right, though, and you're providing the best reason for many of us, who aren't N900 or Nokia, to go out and have a more pragmatic look at the competition and how it might fit our needs better, or else come back and buy that N900.

Here's the problem, though, the competition sucks. Nobody's as open, nobody offers the same experience. Android is a joke, iPhone OS is a joke, and WebOS is an even worse one. There. Is. No. Substitute.

This is why Nokia's behavior is so frustrating. I want with all of my heart to love the product and this platform, but they pretty consistently do everything in their power to punish that.

[danramos]

Here's the problem, though, the competition sucks. Nobody's as open, nobody offers the same experience. Android is a joke, iPhone OS is a joke, and WebOS is an even worse one. There. Is. No. Substitute.

This is why Nokia's behavior is so frustrating. I want with all of my heart to love the product and this platform, but they pretty consistently do everything in their power to punish that.

Sadly, I fully agree.

I think I've been pretty consistent on the point that the increasing openness and the operating system are not disappointing to me. (Although I've begun to question whether the openness is truly Nokia's doing--but that's probably my cynicism at this point.)

I even considered that the N900 MIGHT be a worthwhile device for me to purchase... but in the intervening time (from full announcements, specs and pictures... to the moment it was actually being shipped and available for purchase) I had to do some real thinking and, ultimately, had to remind myself about all the frustrations I've had to deal with whenever I had a problem with Nokia hardware.

Maemo has been like a dangling carrot--it's delicious, it's right there in front of you but it's ALWAYS just right there in front of you.. that promise of EXACTLY what you want as a consumer. GREAT device with an excellent operating system and openness... but the true appreciation of that carrot is AAALWAYS just out of reach with customer service issues (parts? stylus!? ... SOMETHING??) and the appearance of an uncaring attitude toward customers.

Open source is a good move--but as a hardware manufacturer, openness all by itself doesn't make a piece of hardware valuable--it simply makes it MORE valuable than not valuable at all. But if you treat your customers badly, "more valuable" is still falling short of being "valuable" and you'll have lost customers which will be MUCH harder to win back.

I could argue that the N900 misses the mark as the device *I* want.. but even if I wanted to try it out and reconsider, I can't because of the consistently appalling customer service history I've had after purchasing MULTIPLE Nokia products. After a while, you begin to learn what to expect from Nokia and you begin to look elsewhere.

[mrojas]

Here's the problem, though, the competition sucks. Nobody's as open, nobody offers the same experience. Android is a joke, iPhone OS is a joke, and WebOS is an even worse one. There. Is. No. Substitute.

This is why Nokia's behavior is so frustrating. I want with all of my heart to love the product and this platform, but they pretty consistently do everything in their power to punish that.

From my personal opinion, the open sourced Symbian^4 could become close enough for me. It would need a better interface, an improved way of delivering apps, and to run on OMAP3 hardware, among other things, but wouldn't be so... "imprisoning" as other platforms..

About customer service, around here in this part of the world it does not exist regardless the brand (and there is no Android, WebOS here either), so when something breaks we are used to fix it ourselves, like I did with my N800 screen.

As an anecdote, just a week ago a friend took a PC main board to be repaired in a "street shop", he didn't have money for a new one, but for the equivalent of $3, a guy cannibalized components from older main boards and fixed it in less than 25 minutes.

[zwer]

******** ovi maps.. front cam doesnt work.. dissapointed

And when exactly Nokia promised any of this for the N900? If you need someone to blame, blame yourself for buying a product with no research of its shortcomings.

[omeriko9]

And when exactly Nokia promised any of this for the N900? If you need someone to blame, blame yourself for buying a product with no research of its shortcomings.

I know this is a bit offtopic, but come on, please stop this "do your research" propaganda against any complaints heard about missing basic functionality in the n900.

A research should be made, I agree, but also should not be overestimated. It cannot, by all means, cover EVERY aspect and feature the device might of might not have.
If the device have front camera but no video calls - that's a yet-to-be implemented functionality rather than "no video calls".
If the device has (a)GPS but no good turn-by-turn navigation software, this again should be implemented sooner or later, rather than be treated by the "hey, do your research before you buy" approach.

I should not digg the 'maemo talk' forums just to figure if the n900 has unique ringtons for every caller - I expect Nokia to provide it as it did for me for the last 10 years I buy its product: out of the box (same goes for MMS). No research should be SO comprehensive, as the research's Value Of Information must be taken in account when the research is done.

[bandora]

Why do I have to pay for Windows when the Linux people enjoy a free OS? Forget Sygic - if you like the software and think it's better than Ovi maps, then buy it (when it comes out). The presence (or absence) of Sygic has no effect on whether Nokia will produce free navigation for the N900.

My suspicion is that, when development of Ovi Maps for m6 is complete, they'll make a decision on making it available for m5. Until that point they don't know whether it'll work, or even whether it's worth it (if m6 is out shortly afterwards, and will be available for the N900, why bother).

Hah I don't pay for Windows.. Sorry. And no I don't get it pirated.. And also you can switch to linux or to windows.. Because it's by choice and it's not like you're forced to use Windows.. In this case we're kind of getting forced to go with Sygic (I won't.. but I am still not gonna have Turn By Turn Voice Navigation because of that).. So your example cannot relate to what I am saying.

And really you think I am actually dumb by thinking that I thought that Sygic has an effect on Ovi maps or on Nokia? If osmething that should have an effect on another is Nokia having an effect on Sygic and other Navigation softwares.. Btw that's why I stated I know that Sygic has nothing to do with Nokia in post (two different companies).. So please before you share your input try to read and understand the posts. Thank you.

[zwer]

I know this is a bit offtopic, but come on, please stop this "do your research" propaganda against any complaints heard about missing basic functionality in the n900.

It's not a propaganda, it's how things work:
1) You need a new device
2) Some features are of a crucial importance for you, some you can live without
3) You do your research and find the device that mostly meet your criteria
4) You are a happy user

Any other approach leads to a certain disappointment. I've been following Maemo progress since the 770, and it cut the bar only with the N900, so I bought it knowing what to expect. I could've bought the 770/800/810 tablets and come here whininh that they are missing basic functionality, but what good would it bring? I'd just annoy the users who are happy with their device and endure frustration that I'm not.

If you know what you are getting and you are aware of its shortcomings, you won't be disappointed. As simple as that.

Assuming that some device has some feature because some other device has it is quite foolish. And you know what they say about assumptions...

[flydeep]

This maemo forum is working like an anti-NOKIA and anti-N900 viral discussion. Either NOKIA rep has to step in and try to steer it in right direction or this product is going to dumps, it will definitely in the US.

I got my new N900 few days ago and have grown to like it. It has its limitations but I still like it for the open-ness part of it. Now based on the anti Nokia feeling going around here, I am thinking NOKIA is an evil corporation which does not care about its customers and will not support my N900 for all the glorious hardware it has. When my hard earned $500+ does seem to have a life beyond 1-2 years, I am starting to question its 'value' (read- not everyone can afford to throw around $500 although they like to have a nifty gadget). If things do not turn around for the better in the next couple of weeks (at least OVI navigation release could be a demonstration of NOKIA's commitment), I might just have to return the bugger back to Amazon :(

[zwer]

In this case we're kind of getting forced to go with Sygic (I won't.. but I am still not gonna have Turn By Turn Voice Navigation because of that).. So your example cannot relate to what I am saying.

Sorry, but that's a bit like saying that Windows users are forced to purchase Adobe Photoshop since the included MS Paint just doesn't cut it :rolleyes:

You are not forced to do anything. You can always write your own GPS navigation app if the provided doesn't meet your needs and you don't want to pay for someone else to write it.

[kojacker]

I don't think people are turning particularly anti-Nokia, but I think a lot of people feel let down and frustrated at the moment.

Nokia have a huge success on their hands in the n900, much against their own making and to their surprise it must be said, but they are sitting back and not capitalising on it. Nor do they seem to be acknowledging it or celebrating in it. I'm sure all of us would love to see Nokia grasp this bull by the horns and really drive it on. Instead it feels like they are ignoring it and continue to put their weight behind Symbian.

We should be expecting good news coming in the next couple of weeks, from the Barcelona event. If not, that would be disappointing.

[bandora]

Sorry, but that's a bit like saying that Windows users are forced to purchase Adobe Photoshop since the included MS Paint just doesn't cut it :rolleyes:

You are not forced to do anything. You can always write your own GPS navigation app if the provided doesn't meet your needs and you don't want to pay for someone else to write it.

You're missing the point here. If there's something that's already there and it's free, and it's also free on every platform that the company makes, but one of the platforms is missing functionalities, and they will or have fixed it but you (so far) have to fork out another $600+ in order to get it.. Does that sound logical? If so.. well then I think I know where to ask for money when the next device comes out.. :p

I am used to OVi maps and I was expecting that it would have the same support as Symbian.. (I actually paid for the Symbian version of "Nokia Maps")

And really your examples are so bad (not trying to be rude here), but MS paint isn't missing functionality here.. It's designed to be like that.. It's a finished product.. So it's quite different than the Adobe Photoshop..

OVi maps isn't a complete product and is missing functionality.. So really what is the point of your example there?


Also, as the post above this says, noone's turning Anti-Nokia.. I know I am not.. but really some moves like this really doesn't make sense and angers/frustrates people.. Nokia is supposidly changing.. but that obviously isn't enough, they're still doing things that basically gives the impression of "We don't want loyal customers to stay loyal.. SHOO GO AWAY"

[YoDude]

The merging of the threads has confused me a bit...

Perhaps that was the intent. :)

[omeriko9]

I could've bought the 770/800/810 tablets and come here whininh that they are missing basic functionality, but what good would it bring? I'd just annoy the users who are happy with their device and endure frustration that I'm not.


That's another misconsumption. "whining", or more accurately - discussioning about missing features/functionalities led, so far, to the community developing apps and filling the gap (fMMS, android on n900, Mer, call recording, full call records and the list goes on and on...).

Besides, it's always good to put it all on the table, rather than hiding it under the carpet. If something is wrong, in ones opinion, let him express himself.


Assuming that some device has some feature because some other device has it is quite foolish. And you know what they say about assumptions...

I don't agree at all. I won't spend a second to verify my new TV comes with a remote control, or that the new 6 gears car I'm gonna buy has a reverse gear. I let myself assume that the new scientific calculator has the "+" operator, although I'd probably will check if it can add complex numbers.

There are certain things I would definitely spend time to check, but for others I'll have to assume exitance. And tracking Maemo history to the n770 is not a reasonable research for my opinion.

[zwer]

You're missing the point here. If there's something that's already there and it's free, and it's also free on every platform that the company makes, but one of the platforms is missing functionalities, and they will or have fixed it but you (so far) have to fork out another $600+ in order to get it.. Does that sound logical? If so.. well then I think I know where to ask for money when the next device comes out.. :p

I am used to OVi maps and I was expecting that it would have the same support as Symbian.. (I actually paid for the Symbian version of "Nokia Maps")

But you, my good sir, are missing the point - there is nothing out there that is free for the Maemo platform except for the most basic Ovi Maps implementation. And at the time when 99% of us bought the N900 it wasn't free for the Symbian either. While Nokia/Ovi Maps have been in development for years, and it already had turn-by-turn navigation implemented, such features must be written from scratch on Maemo. I wouldn't be surprised, nor disappointed if I don't see that on my device during its lifetime. I'd be very happy if Nokia does it, tho. And I actually think that it's more viable than the prime subject of this topic - Maemo 6 on the N900. I assume they'll rewrite Ovi Maps from scratch in Qt, and thus it should be, in theory, very easy to port to Maemo 5.

As for the support of Symbian Ovi Maps, scroll couple of pages back and you'll see how Nokia f-ed up big time my experience a couple of years back - this time at least they didn't promise something they didn't deliver.

[danramos]

It's not a propaganda, it's how things work:
1) You need a new device
2) Some features are of a crucial importance for you, some you can live without
3) You do your research and find the device that mostly meet your criteria
4) You are a happy user

Any other approach leads to a certain disappointment. I've been following Maemo progress since the 770, and it cut the bar only with the N900, so I bought it knowing what to expect. I could've bought the 770/800/810 tablets and come here whininh that they are missing basic functionality, but what good would it bring? I'd just annoy the users who are happy with their device and endure frustration that I'm not.

If you know what you are getting and you are aware of its shortcomings, you won't be disappointed. As simple as that.

Assuming that some device has some feature because some other device has it is quite foolish. And you know what they say about assumptions...

Since when did a front-facing camera imply that the device shouldn't have some software to take advantage of it out-of-the-box? At the very least, so that you can try it out to make sure it's working properly?

I can at least agree with you on the mapping application--there's no implied entitlement to a mapping application at all. Just, at least, SOMETHING that uses it so that, once again, you can see that it works.

It's simply disappointing that Nokia hasn't provided a better experience, but seeing as how they supposedly sold this as a 'computer first' in their ads, it's beyond disappointing (and very eyebrow raising) that they're beginning to create a walled garden in the Application Manager to prevent third party deb's and repositories and promoting this Ovi Store while making the customers, who're eagerly anticipating Sygic (a clearly MUCH better product), sit on their thumbs for Nokia to approve it for the N900. Maybe it would dispel the cynicism if we knew WHY it was sitting in limbo and an expectation of how long it takes for apps to go through approval, too.

The people criticizing you for your flippantly dismissive, "do your research," have a point in that they're pointing out what they don't like. I would argue that although you're absolutely correct--maybe they shouldn't have bought an N900--you might not be improving the process nor the product to dismiss them as customers or part of the community and send them off elsewhere. Nokia would do well to listen too, otherwise you end up with a lot of miserable owners and some of this...

This maemo forum is working like an anti-NOKIA and anti-N900 viral discussion. Either NOKIA rep has to step in and try to steer it in right direction or this product is going to dumps, it will definitely in the US.

I got my new N900 few days ago and have grown to like it. It has its limitations but I still like it for the open-ness part of it. Now based on the anti Nokia feeling going around here, I am thinking NOKIA is an evil corporation which does not care about its customers and will not support my N900 for all the glorious hardware it has. When my hard earned $500+ does seem to have a life beyond 1-2 years, I am starting to question its 'value' (read- not everyone can afford to throw around $500 although they like to have a nifty gadget). If things do not turn around for the better in the next couple of weeks (at least OVI navigation release could be a demonstration of NOKIA's commitment), I might just have to return the bugger back to Amazon :(

Pragmatism would dictate that it would be unwise to dismiss the N900 because a bunch of other people are pooping all over it. It would also be unwise to dismiss the competition, as some have. For me, so far the Android platform has met all of my requirements where I didn't even expect it.

At least you're willing to give it the two weeks. Hopefully by then you might find it suits you better, but if it's not.. the great thing these days is that there is plenty of competition out there for your money.

I don't think people are turning particularly anti-Nokia, but I think a lot of people feel let down and frustrated at the moment.

Nokia have a huge success on their hands in the n900, much against their own making and to their surprise it must be said, but they are sitting back and not capitalising on it. Nor do they seem to be acknowledging it or celebrating in it. I'm sure all of us would love to see Nokia grasp this bull by the horns and really drive it on. Instead it feels like they are ignoring it and continue to put their weight behind Symbian.

We should be expecting good news coming in the next couple of weeks, from the Barcelona event. If not, that would be disappointing.

I fully agree with your first paragraph, but I feel as if your second paragraph misplaces my own sentiments. I believe the problem lies less with tooting their horn and advertising, and lies much more in Nokia's lack of customer care, customer needs and brand loyalty. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your message, though.

[horus]

I wouldn't mind paying a third-party a decent price for a navigation app that worked.

The fact it doesn't exist is just annoying.


Anywho;

if
N900.Capability == Maemo6
then
Population.happy = True
else
Population.happy = False
Nokia.wallet_boost = True

[wmarone]

they're beginning to create a walled garden in the Application Manager to prevent third party deb's and repositories
Since when have they done that? You can still add repositories trivially, and installing 3rd party debs forces you to do so explicitly instead of casually jumping completely out of stream. I don't get why people think that .deb files are like .apk or .cab files. They're meant to be used via the repository model, not traded around.

I'll buy the walled garden when it becomes necessary to actively root the system like you do Android.

[danramos]

I wouldn't mind paying a third-party a decent price for a navigation app that worked.

The fact it doesn't exist is just annoying.


Anywho;

if
N900.Capability == Maemo6
then
Population.happy = True
else
Population.happy = False
Nokia.wallet_boost = True

I can't help thinking there's a big exploitable bug in there.

[danramos]

Since when have they done that? You can still add repositories trivially, and installing 3rd party debs forces you to do so explicitly instead of casually jumping completely out of stream. I don't get why people think that .deb files are like .apk or .cab files. They're meant to be used via the repository model, not traded around.

I'll buy the walled garden when it becomes necessary to actively root the system like you do Android.

Agreed, actually.. but it's one more mechanism that you're denied. You do not need to 'root' an Android system to install apk's. (There's a system option to allow or deny installing non-Market apps.. no rooting necessary. You can even install apps by scanning the barcode on the screen.. bam, done. Again, no rooting. ie: http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/).

[bandora]

But you, my good sir, are missing the point - there is nothing out there that is free for the Maemo platform except for the most basic Ovi Maps implementation. And at the time when 99% of us bought the N900 it wasn't free for the Symbian either. While Nokia/Ovi Maps have been in development for years, and it already had turn-by-turn navigation implemented, such features must be written from scratch on Maemo. I wouldn't be surprised, nor disappointed if I don't see that on my device during its lifetime. I'd be very happy if Nokia does it, tho. And I actually think that it's more viable than the prime subject of this topic - Maemo 6 on the N900. I assume they'll rewrite Ovi Maps from scratch in Qt, and thus it should be, in theory, very easy to port to Maemo 5.

As for the support of Symbian Ovi Maps, scroll couple of pages back and you'll see how Nokia f-ed up big time my experience a couple of years back - this time at least they didn't promise something they didn't deliver.

I know that when I bought the N900 Ovi Maps wasn't free.. And I didn't care at that time (and which I thought that they will still implement Turn-by-turn Navigation on the N900 or for Maemo 5, but for a price just like symbian).. But when the whole service is now free.. why do we have to look for somewhere else? And yes, I fully understand that it has to be written from scratch as this is a linux and Symbian.. well it's symbian.. but what I am saying is that (going with Nokia's opinion of Maemo 5) it's step 4/5, so why can't they "test/develop" the full Ovi maps on Maemo 5 (don't forget that QT 4.6 will be coming to Maemo 5 also), and then keep on making it better with firmware updates until Maemo 6 (then they will both share the same version).. (Kind of like Symbian S60v3 and S60v5).. This way Ovi Maps would be so much better and mature also when Maemo 6 actually becomes available too!

They would be killing two birds in one stone that way..

[wmarone]

Agreed, actually.. but it's one more mechanism that you're denied. You do not need to 'root' an Android system to install apk's. (There's a system option to allow or deny installing non-Market apps.. no rooting necessary. You can even install apps by scanning the barcode on the screen.. bam, done. Again, no rooting. ie: http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/).

True, but Android applications are insulated from the system. They don't install like standard Linux applications, which (all?) Maemo applications are. APT requires you be root (assuming your permissions are sane.)

I'd like it more if sudo worked out of the box and required you set a password on startup. Then you could at least get some of the "do you really know what you are doing" across without forcing people to hit the repos to install out of stream packages. -maybe- a GUI combined with gksudo.

[qgil]

Maemo, a walled garden? And then Android the alternative? Interesting argumentation. Maybe signaling that it's time to review what are we all doing in this discussion.

For instance, all these users willing to have free turn-by-turn navigation in the N900 asap: have you tried Navit, currently in extras-devel? I installed it few days ago and it definitely needs volunteers and feedback. Consider investing there some of your time spent in this speculative thread.

Now back to the topic.

Look, our time to start discussing Harmattan in more detail comes with the Harmattan alpha release. Think of it: makes sense. In the meantime Nokia representatives are encouraged not to make promises or especulate, which also makes total sense.

Maemo 5 has a roadmap of updates that includes more than bugfixes. It hasn't been disclosed, but the plan exists and is being executed as we speak.

No matter what you think today, I bet by the Harmattan alpha release your thoughts will be different based on the new information we will have shared with you. In the meantime, trust me: the value and usefulness of this thread beyond (say) the post 100 is arguable to say the least.

And for you to consider: if setting "Harmattan" target milestone in maemo.org bugs and brainstorms causes all this especulation, bad mood and anxiety then you are making it easier for someone to tell us (Nokians active in maemo.org) to stop sharing any Harmattan related information, for the good of the N900 customers. Threads like this one wouldn't help us defending the increase of openness beyond the scope of open source projects.

So really, if you want to contribute to the future of Maemo and the N900 then please invest your time filing/improving/voting bug reports and brainstorms, help pushing apps from Extras-testing to Extras, try/rate/comment Ovi apps, pick your preferred missing feature and collaborate with anybody willing to push it... All this is actually fun, not only for you but also for the rest of users that will benefit from the improvements you will help pushing.

If you are not really in Maemo collaboration mood then that is also fine of course. Enjoy your Maemo device or enjoy whatever else (including competitors' devices if they suit you better). But nobody really needs more acid posts adding nothing really new to a point that has been clearly made.

Thank you, and enjoy your ride.

[gerbick]

Perhaps that was the intent. :)

It doesn't take much to confuse me.

[johnel]

Dear qgill

This thread must be deeply frustrating for you and I understand how you feel.

I bought the n900 in December and it never leaves my side. The hard work that has gone into the design, implementation of the hardware and software is nothing short of amaziing - the technical teams at Nokia who put this together are talented and have my gratitude.

However, this statement seemed to upset a few people (including me) and the trouble started:


"In a call with Michael Halbherr, Nokia's VP of Social Location, we were told that the new Ovi Maps would arrive on the flagship N97 very shortly. It's currently a "software logistics issue" related to the maturity of the N97 device. N900 owners shouldn't hold their breath, though, as Nokia is focusing on bringing its free navigation service to the next generation of Maemo devices. That's not to say that the N900 won't get it eventually, only that it's not currently on the roadmap."


In particular this line "the next generation of Maemo devices".

There has been an enormous amount of speculation on this line "next generation of Maemo devices".
So new OVI Maps will only be available on "next-generation of Maemo devices" is what people here are thinking (I know this is off-topic but it proves an important point).

The next two questions this raises is "A new version of Maemo is in the pipeline - historically speaking a new version of Maemo is only released on a new device)":

(1) Does this mean my n900 is being side-lined? and
(2) Will Maemo 6 be available on my n900?


If the n900 is being side-lined then people who bought the device at it's release (2 months ago) will be annoyed.

qgill, surely you can understand this sentiment?

With regards to the next version of Maemo (Harmattan) how much different will it be?

If the major change to Maemo will be the inclusion of QT and this is the core of Harmattan then that's fine. A version of QT is available for the n900 and developers can target it.

Also some bugs that exist in maemo 5 will only be fixed in Harmatten?
If these fixes are back-ported to maemo 5 via an update of some kind that's fine. If these bugs will only be fixed in Harmattan and Harmattan will run (maybe with some tweaking) on n900 that's fine too. If these bugs are fixed in Harmattan and ignored in maemo 5 (the n900) then that is extremely dis-respectful to people who bought the n900.

I know alot of this is speculation and that is the problem. We just do not know what Nokia are plannning next.

Nokia seems to have very little actual contact with the community and seem to value "silence is better than communication". If this policy is to create speculation and "get people talking" then I am afraid this is back-firing quite badly.

I'm not suggesting Nokia tells us everything or release information that competitors can take advantage of I'm just saying give us some idea on what is going on.

The "let's be cool and mysterious by being secretive" approach only works for Apple not Nokia.

Nokia must communicate.

Give us a roadmap and give us an idea of what is going on. It's only a roadmap not the 10 commandments written in stone handed to Moses!
It just gives us an idea what is going and sometimes things change, roadmaps change and may take a different route - that's fine.

When Nokia maintains publicly silent the company appears elusive and sinister. People may get the wrong impression and think Nokia is up to "something".

Look, our time to start discussing Harmattan in more detail comes with the Harmattan alpha release. Think of it: makes sense. In the meantime Nokia representatives are encouraged not to make promises or especulate, which also makes total sense.

We are not asking anyone to speculate or make promises you cannot keep, we are asking you "tell us what you are doing", "how much does Harmattan differ from the current version of maemo".
These are just example questions - "keep us in the loop".

Maemo 5 has a roadmap of updates that includes more than bugfixes. It hasn't been disclosed, but the plan exists and is being executed as we speak.

Show us the roadmap, tell us the plan and why won't you disclose it?

You need to disclose something or the speculation and rumours within the community are going to get worse.

If you want a good example of a roadmap look at Gnome, KDE or Phonon - they are on your roadmap page (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap)


And for you to consider: if setting "Harmattan" target milestone in maemo.org bugs and brainstorms causes all this especulation, bad mood and anxiety then you are making it easier for someone to tell us (Nokians active in maemo.org) to stop sharing any Harmattan related information, for the good of the N900 customers. Threads like this one wouldn't help us defending the increase of openness beyond the scope of open source projects.

If you want to stop threads like this appearing on the maemo.org site then you need to be forthcoming with information.

All we really basically know is Maemo 6 will be QT-based, the next device will have multi-touch and "free" OVI Maps will be available on Maemo 6 only and a page proposing a security framework.

So really, if you want to contribute to the future of Maemo and the N900 then please invest your time filing/improving/voting bug reports and brainstorms,

The problem is that people in this community are wondering and speculating "If Nokia are concentrating on the "next-generation" of Maemo devices. Is it worth my time contributing to the current version of Maemo"

But nobody really needs more acid posts adding nothing really new to a point that has been clearly made

I absolutely agree.

However, the lack of concrete information by Nokia is driving these kind of comments.

So, come on qgill and Nokia be more forthcoming with your plans for the Maemo platform!

You have a great product - it's even inspired people to learn to program and develop software for the n900 now that is a commitment to the platform!

The speculation and the ill-feeling from members of the community will only grow if things continue the way they are.
If it continues then eventually the IT press will pick-up on it and then it will damage Nokia's chances of being a global player in the smartphone market. Can you imagine if a site like Slashdot.org reported what was going on?

My very first mobile phone was a Nokia phone. Until recently we were staunch Sony-Ericsson users. For the first in many years my wife and I bought Nokia phones (she has the 5800 xpressmusic) and I of course have the n900.

As a UK citizen and a member of Europe I am really proud that a european company like Nokia is competing against large american companies like Apple, Google and Microsoft.

This can only mean good things for the consumer.

[lwa]

I'm not sure why people are struggling with this so much...
qgil has spelt it out pretty clearly in a few posts now that nokia has a plan and that still includes the n900 in some capacity.

it might be full M6 support or it might not but hes practically said
"i cant offically say anything but just wait and see" *wink wink*...

[nintendogs]

--big post--

Best post ever. End of thread :D

[attila77]

All we really basically know is Maemo 6 will be QT-based, the next device will have multi-touch and "free" OVI Maps will be available on Maemo 6 only and a page proposing a security framework.


Emphasis mine. Nobody said that. Targeting (timewise) a M6 milestone does not necessarily mean that it will be ONLY available on M6. We'll know more about backports/compatibility options when the SDK comes out.

[johnel]

I'm not sure why people are struggling with this so much...
qgil has spelt it out pretty clearly in a few posts now that nokia has a plan and that still includes the n900 in some capacity.

it might be full M6 support or it might not but hes practically said
"i cant offically say anything but just wait and see" *wink wink*...

Rather than say "i cant offically say anything but just wait and see" *wink wink" just come out and say it.

Make it official. Put everyone's mind at rest and we can all say "phew! we can relax now"

We can then end this bl00dy thread! ;)

[zwer]

You see, there are those little pesky things called NDAs, and a common sense of providing no promises if you are not sure that you can live up to them. qgil said as much as he could/would, as any responsible developer would, respect that and stop bothering him.

[johnel]

You see, there are those little pesky things called NDAs, and a common sense of providing no promises if you are not sure that you can live up to them. qgil said as much as he could/would, as any responsible developer would, respect that and stop bothering him.

Yes you make a fair point with NDAs and it was not my intention to "bother" qgil.
If that is the case then I must offer my sincere apologies. :(

I know he is doing the best he can under the circumstances and the line "Make it official. Put everyone's mind at rest and we can all say "phew! we can relax now"" was really directed at Nokia and I should have made that clearer.

Nokia seems to have a clear idea on where Maemo is heading and I think Nokia should allow qgil to make things clearer. It will maybe take the heat out the issue of "Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?".

My still stand by what I said in my post(#688) (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31346&page=69) but I did not mean to bother or harrass qgil. To be fair it was more directed at Nokia.

Judging by the size of the thread this is a "heated" debate and people feel strongly about it.

If Nokia Formally and officially make an announcement about Maemo 6 then this would clear the air immensely.

Maybe I should take this up with Nokia directly?

[russo_br]

Maemo 5 has a roadmap of updates that includes more than bugfixes. It hasn't been disclosed, but the plan exists and is being executed as we speak.
No matter what you think today, I bet by the Harmattan alpha release your thoughts will be different based on the new information we will have shared with you. In the meantime, trust me: the value and usefulness of this thread beyond (say) the post 100 is arguable to say the least.


Thanks qgil, just to have an affirmation that Maemo 5 roadmap includes more than bug fixes is something that, if were well announced by Nokia PR like on the Ovi Maps announcement, probably would have made this thread much shorter...


If you are not really in Maemo collaboration mood then that is also fine of course. Enjoy your Maemo device or enjoy whatever else (including competitors' devices if they suit you better). But nobody really needs more acid posts adding nothing really new to a point that has been clearly made.


Please understand that despite emotional posts saying things like "won't never buy a Nokia device again", we are still here, and that's because we all are enjoying N900 but at the same time worried about its future. It seems from human nature complaining more than praising...

Now you set a new milestone for our anxiety, Harmattan Alpha SDK release... :rolleyes:

[zwer]

Well, I've been in qgil's shoes (totally different projects, tho) several times and I know how it is when people are asking you questions you really cannot answer, be it because of the NDA, or because of still unclear position on the subject, and in such cases it is better to keep your mouth shut than giving a glimpse to calm down those who'd like to know everything here and now - because in such situations the old one `give a finger, they'll ask you for your arm` comes to mind.

In the past n pages the exact same thing was asked of qgil and he always calmly and clearly answered that until Harmattan Alpha SDK is out no promises cannot be made because there are just too many unknown things and/or things he cannot disclose at the moment, yet people kept asking him the same thing. I just felt sorry for the guy - that's a very unpleasant position.

I do agree that Nokia should make a bit more effort to communicate on an official level, I clearly stated that couple of pages back, but since we can't get to them we are venting our frustrations on people that do not deserve that. I, for one, am happy that at least some of the `insiders` are even willing to talk with the community disclosing their position and identities, you won't meet that on many places.

[russo_br]

Nokia seems to have a clear idea on where Maemo is heading and I think Nokia should allow qgil to make things clearer. It will maybe take the heat out the issue of "Maemo 6 / Harmattan on N900?".
......
Maybe I should take this up with Nokia directly?

Qgil told a few times that Maemo.org is not supposed to be a channel for customer care, but in my opinion it could fill this role as well, just don't think Qgil should be the responsible for that.

Nokia should assign a PR or anybody else to relief him from all these complains so he can focus on other subjects, even if this PR doesn't respond what we want to know... at least would be a target, er... I mean, point of contact... :D

[gerbick]

I think patience is required right now if you don't have faith...

So those dollars/euros/lint in your pocket that sees the N900 as "shiny shiny, gotta have it", if Maemo 6 is a priority to you, patience.

*sits on wallet*

[mrojas]

You see, there are those little pesky things called NDAs, and a common sense of providing no promises if you are not sure that you can live up to them. qgil said as much as he could/would, as any responsible developer would, respect that and stop bothering him.

AMEN.

Thread over.

[jcompagner]

reading this thread (i have to admit not every post ;)) i came to the conclusion that i don't really care if i dont get M6 on the N900 as long as i do get all the libs that the apps that are then made for M6 so that i can run them.

So if the latest QT libs are just working on the N900 then that means that every app thats build then is still working fine on the N900.. Also the other way around should Nokia support, so the M6 should be able to run all apps of that are made for the M5/N900. Dont break everything again.. Thats just bad for the developers and bad for the people that by the N900+1 and still don't really have apps from day 1.

But this does mean one thing. And i have said this before in other threads. I don't really care if the base OS is not updated any more at some point. BUT the problem is that the current firmware is not only the base OS, It has the email client (Modest) it has the browser (MicroB) it has the Media player and OVI Maps. (and i guess a few more but those are for me the most important onces)

So if it means that i don't get updates anymore also on those.. that would be bad, really really bad. (Modest really really needs to be way better, it doesnt compare to profimail on S60)
Please extract these from the firmware and let those 4 items be just repository applications that you can update.

Don't tell me because they are integrated in the OS. Please if thats the case then that is a very negative thing about linux/maemo. Windows even allows you to override all the default applications if you like....

So extract the applications from the firmware, make sure that M6 apps do run on M5 then i dont mind to much about not being able to upgrade the base OS...

[danramos]

reading this thread (i have to admit not every post ;)) i came to the conclusion that i don't really care if i dont get M6 on the N900 as long as i do get all the libs that the apps that are then made for M6 so that i can run them.

So if the latest QT libs are just working on the N900 then that means that every app thats build then is still working fine on the N900.. Also the other way around should Nokia support, so the M6 should be able to run all apps of that are made for the M5/N900. Dont break everything again.. Thats just bad for the developers and bad for the people that by the N900+1 and still don't really have apps from day 1.

But this does mean one thing. And i have said this before in other threads. I don't really care if the base OS is not updated any more at some point. BUT the problem is that the current firmware is not only the base OS, It has the email client (Modest) it has the browser (MicroB) it has the Media player and OVI Maps. (and i guess a few more but those are for me the most important onces)

So if it means that i don't get updates anymore also on those.. that would be bad, really really bad. (Modest really really needs to be way better, it doesnt compare to profimail on S60)
Please extract these from the firmware and let those 4 items be just repository applications that you can update.

Don't tell me because they are integrated in the OS. Please if thats the case then that is a very negative thing about linux/maemo. Windows even allows you to override all the default applications if you like....

So extract the applications from the firmware, make sure that M6 apps do run on M5 then i dont mind to much about not being able to upgrade the base OS...

I thought I'd complained about this PLENTY of times before, regarding my N800--and I thought I was told that these programs were removable in Maemo 5 without damaging the system, so you could free up the space for other apps that you prefer. Is this NOT the case?


Also, with regard to Nokia claiming maemo.org isn't a customer support site... where CAN customers go to where Nokia will survey complaints and obtain opinions on their products? Near as I can tell, it doesn't look like the company has ANY inclination to care for the customer, once a sale is completed.. which is, again, fine.. but this is the sort of thing that makes for a lot of regret and loss of loyalty, as I've been chanting repeatedly into the ether.

[GeneralAntilles]

Also, with regard to Nokia claiming maemo.org isn't a customer support site... where CAN customers go to where Nokia will survey complaints and obtain opinions on their products? Near as I can tell, it doesn't look like the company has ANY inclination to care for the customer, once a sale is completed.. which is, again, fine.. but this is the sort of thing that makes for a lot of regret and loss of loyalty, as I've been chanting repeatedly into the ether.

http://www.nokiausa.com/get-support-and-software/contact-us

[flydeep]

Online Email form:

https://www.nokiausa.com/get-support-and-software/contact-us/email-us

Ranting there could be helpful?

http://www.nokiausa.com/get-support-and-software/contact-us

[Mandor]

Look, our time to start discussing Harmattan in more detail comes with the Harmattan alpha release. Think of it: makes sense. In the meantime Nokia representatives are encouraged not to make promises or especulate, which also makes total sense.

Maemo 5 has a roadmap of updates that includes more than bugfixes. It hasn't been disclosed, but the plan exists and is being executed as we speak.

No matter what you think today, I bet by the Harmattan alpha release your thoughts will be different based on the new information we will have shared with you. In the meantime, trust me: the value and usefulness of this thread beyond (say) the post 100 is arguable to say the least.

Happy now people ? We can all go back to our lives.

And for you to consider: if setting "Harmattan" target milestone in maemo.org bugs and brainstorms causes all this especulation, bad mood and anxiety then you are making it easier for someone to tell us (Nokians active in maemo.org) to stop sharing any Harmattan related information, for the good of the N900 customers. Threads like this one wouldn't help us defending the increase of openness beyond the scope of open source projects..

??? ... shut it or we will be evil ?

[NvyUs]

people wanting to lodge complaints or want official help can try here too http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/discussions/

[jakiman]

Well, by the time Maemo 6 comes out, I can only assume that my N900 will most likely look quite bad compared to the new N950 or whatever it's going to be called. (cpu, gpu, memory, lcd etc etc) So if that's the case, I'll just upgrade to the newer phone. =P

N900 even if it is stuck with Maemo 5 was and still is and most likely will be the best little device you can get for quite some time. As qgil pointed out, it seems Nokia has some nice little surprises planned for us N900 users for some time. To me, that's more than enough of an answer to keep me happy for now. =)

[danramos]

Well, by the time Maemo 6 comes out, I can only assume that my N900 will most likely look quite bad compared to the new N950 or whatever it's going to be called. (cpu, gpu, memory, lcd etc etc) So if that's the case, I'll just upgrade to the newer phone. =P

N900 even if it is stuck with Maemo 5 was and still is and most likely will be the best little device you can get for quite some time. As qgil pointed out, it seems Nokia has some nice little surprises planned for us N900 users for some time. To me, that's more than enough of an answer to keep me happy for now. =)

Given past history, I'll hold my excitement in check until I actually see something that impresses me. The price of the N900 is already the first roadblock and a no-go for me to bother with it as it is. Had there been a version made without the cellphone. There would have to be a LOOOT of compelling software functionality for me to want to bother spending near-laptop money on this thing and right now, it isn't there.

[gerbick]

Given past history, I'll hold my excitement in check until I actually see something that impresses me. The price of the N900 is already the first roadblock and a no-go for me to bother with it as it is. Had there been a version made without the cellphone. There would have to be a LOOOT of compelling software functionality for me to want to bother spending near-laptop money on this thing and right now, it isn't there.

Ditto. I've gotten real used to carrying two devices and honestly, I'd rather have the browser on the N900, the screen from the N810, and ultimately I'd be able to drop my iPhone and go with a simpler phone, saving me $30 a month for data I rarely use outside of wi-fi areas.

The non-committal answers surrounding something as simple as "Yes, we'll continue to support your N900 with the next Maemo OS, thus making early adopters and their valuable input that much more important to refining step 4 out of 5 and making step 5 of 5 an inevitable success..." would lord... make me buy one right now.

Simply because then I'd know that in 13 months from release, I'd not be left behind like I was with the N810. Past behavior from Nokia made me gun shy. Then the price - sorry, I got hit during this recession finally - so knowing that I'll not be losing an investment.

Maybe being aloof is the new "hype" perhaps.

[jakiman]

With ALL of my older Nokia/Philips/SonyEricsson/Samsung/LG phones over the past 15 years or so, I never cared or even expected new OS or new funky features to be added to the phone after about first 12 months. Heck, most phones, I never even updated to a newer firmware etc.

I guess the whole expectation of continous future support is also due to iPhone/Android and WinMo devices which are able to be upgraded to newer OS versions. Also, the fact that N900 is much more computer like than most other "phones". Well, I hope I can upgrade it to Maemo 6, but really, it's already good enough to last me a while till my next new flashy gadget from Nokia or others.

[gerbick]

My expectations would be much less if only the next iteration of the hardware was not using the same level of CPU. And given the nature of the prior internet tablets - some went all the way up to 2008HE on the 770 - the changes aren't that major to where the OS cannot be fit onto the machine as it stands.

Sure, there might be true reasons forthcoming why it will not work; but given what we know about the upcoming Maemo 6 device, it should be a no brainer.

As far as phones go, I'd like to get 2 full years out of one. For one that costs $600 USD, I'd expect that and no less. I'm coming up on 2 years with the iPhone3G, had the iPhone for almost 16 months... had a Startac for like 4 years, if not 5.

I don't want new features or a new OS on my phone as much as I'd like to have my new phones that boast more computer like inputs and updates and abilities to also be supported like my computers - for more than 1 year.

Call it a "portable computer", then support it like one. I do not buy a computer each year.

[geneven]

we want maemo6 on nokia n900,
we want maemo6 on nokia n900,
we want maemo6 on nokia n900,we want maemo6 on nokia n900
we want maemo6 on nokia n900, we want maemo6 on nokia n900

Is that to the tune of "All wOrk and no plAy Makes jacK a Dull bOy?"

[danramos]

With ALL of my older Nokia/Philips/SonyEricsson/Samsung/LG phones over the past 15 years or so, I never cared or even expected new OS or new funky features to be added to the phone after about first 12 months. Heck, most phones, I never even updated to a newer firmware etc.

Right, you're missing the heritage of this device and what brought it to this point. The cell-phone aspect of this device is being billed NOW as a secondary feature (despite the fact that it initially was being pushed as a cell phone, and they were INTENTIONALLY making sure people didn't call it an Internet Tablet. If this isn't a cell phone, and you're pushing it as a general computing device on par with desktops, laptops or even PDA's, then by God, I do expect it to be supported with updates, patches and a good bonus would be general compatibility with other operating systems too. If it was just a cell phone, then why is it such a crappy phone? In which case, I'd expect they should WANT to update it to make it more attractive as a phone.

[ArmandHammer]

Right, you're missing the heritage of this device and what brought it to this point. The cell-phone aspect of this device is being billed NOW as a secondary feature (despite the fact that it initially was being pushed as a cell phone, and they were INTENTIONALLY making sure people didn't call it an Internet Tablet. If this isn't a cell phone, and you're pushing it as a general computing device on par with desktops, laptops or even PDA's, then by God, I do expect it to be supported with updates, patches and a good bonus would be general compatibility with other operating systems too. If it was just a cell phone, then why is it such a crappy phone? In which case, I'd expect they should WANT to update it to make it more attractive as a phone.

Well put, why doom a phone by not updating it to the newer software. If there is a phone from tha same company but with the bigger and better software no one is going to want to buy the n900 after this future phone is released.
If the future phone with maemo with an all touch screen then wouldnt it make sense to update the n900 so that they could have one touch and one with a full keyboard. I would think that would boost their sales and give them a MUCH better lineup. just my 2 cents.

[rocky272727]

Nokia N900 will not be able to get an update or Maemo 6 as Nokia will not let it happen. They always launch new OS with New Device and its there strategy to do business. If N900 will be able to get Maemo 6 update then the sale for Nokia N920 or N** will drop which will be bad for nokia and they would have already thought about it and that is why I think Maemo 6 will not get an update.

I love this phone and am dying to explore more of it. But I am sure there are many Einstein developers who might make M6 tweak and work on N900 as I do not think there will be any hardware issues.(Hope they do not update the OMAP chip)

Cheers

[Brank]

rocky, they might put a price tag on upgrading to Harmattan, which might work alright.

[Legis]

I do not think the new Nxxx will be bad sale if N900 has Maemo 6 upgrade. Think of iPhone/iPhone 3Gs. iPhone 3Gs still sold very very good, even iPhone could have OS upgrade. That's because the new service or new software only works on new device.....That's the point.

but if N900 has Maemo 6 upgrade, N900 still could have another benefit. ex: full QT 4.6 base framework (??), full portrait mode, or new home screen ?

But it all depends on Nokia.

[Matthaus]

I see android is going from 1.6 to 2.1 on the HTC hero - so would be nice of nokia gave us Maemo 6.

[ArmandHammer]

My point is why not make a device with better stats: capacitive screen, snapdragon processor,....... Put maemo 6 on that device and upgrade the n900 to maemo 6. Their lineup will be unmatched with two elite devices running the new OS. One with a keyboard and one without.

[attila77]

Neither capacitive screens or a Snapdragon processor imply better stats. In fact, if there was a Snapdragon in there would be *ZERO* chance of backporting Maemo 6 to the N900 as it belongs to a very different (sub)family of ARM processors.

[wmarone]

Neither capacitive screens or a Snapdragon processor imply better stats. In fact, if there was a Snapdragon in there would be *ZERO* chance of backporting Maemo 6 to the N900 as it belongs to a very different (sub)family of ARM processors.

How so? Accounting for drivers, if you have the proper compiler with an appropriately ported kernel, it's not -that- different. What is it about the Snapdragon that would make it impossible to backport software?

[SubCore]

What is it about the Snapdragon that would make it impossible to backport software?

backporting software is not the issue, but backporting Maemo 6 as a whole.
If nokia were to develop Maemo 6 solely for the Snapdragon, they would have to maintain two branches of code for the lower system stuff, which they won't do.

sure you can just recompile most of the userspace apps, but optimizations on the system level require a lot more effort.

[wmarone]

they would have to maintain two branches of code for the lower system stuff, which they won't do.
Which makes me curious as to what extent there are actual -code optimizations- for the A8, versus optimizations to GCC.

sure you can just recompile most of the userspace apps, but optimizations on the system level require a lot more effort.
Considering the whole of Maemo exists in userspace, I'm still trying to see what's so wildly different about Snapdragon's ARM branch from the Cortex A8 line.

[abubakar]

i am with you, love landscape mode! thats the way i want it to be.

[SubCore]

disclaimer: i cannot provide any facts, i'm merely speculating.
and "userspace" was probably the wrong word :)

i imagine the main reason would be power management.
most of system libraries like libalarm, pulseaudio, but especially the connectivity subsystems need to know how to deal with different power saving states.

also, i'm not sure if rewriting drivers is such a trivial task...

[qgil]

Janne Heikkinen announced in the Maemo Summit that Maemo 6 will be based in OMAP 3. http://www.slideshare.net/peterschneider/maemo-6-technology-highlights

[wmarone]

Well it was definitely going to be an OMAP of some sort. I don't see Nokia using a Qualcomm device any time soon!

[tissot]

Janne Heikkinen announced in the Maemo Summit that Maemo 6 will be based in OMAP 3. http://www.slideshare.net/peterschneider/maemo-6-technology-highlights
Well it's all open. With Samsung having 45nm 1ghz for OMAP3 that supports 1080p and got same release time frame as OMAP4. Not too sure that Nokia will be example using that processor thought.

[attila77]

Just to make sure on the same page - we're not talking about the theoretical ability to make things run on different hardware. We're talking about Nokia doing the backport of Maemo. Now, if they are reluctant to commit to a backport to something that uses a SoC from the same family (OMAP3), I would see zero chance of them committing to the level of effort a new kernel and driver port would require. And good kernel/driver support is a big deal in the embedded world, a running state is just half of the work, them comes power management, etc.

[AlMehdi]

One problem now for N900 and Maemo is market share. If Nokia get's to defensive they will be overrunned. In the Linux world the latest stable rules. So an early release of Maemo 6 would make people adopt the Maemo OS better.

Now they are competing with Android which will have pretty fast release cycle. Nokia need to get on the train if they not want to lose.

Ubuntu which also are based on Debian have 6 month cycles.. That would be a good measure for Maemo too. They can't keep the old way of releasing with a new device. That will make people get bored. They will look on their neighbor (droid) who always will have the latest and best. And when the times come switch and never look back.

The Maemo user could try to install other OS's but as long as it's not native it will not work for a longer amount of time.

This is how i reason right now. I want Maemo but on a better device than N900. I do not know if i will wait for N920 or if i just go with SE-X10 who have a snapdragon cpu.

[ajflex]

AlMehdi speak for yourself
i thick n900 is very powerful and can run maemo 6 and beyond
stop killing new product your problem that it is resistive screen dis and advantage each technology is different i prefer resistive because you use figure and stylus and physical keyboard capacitive only finger that's why multi touch

stop comparing iPhone with the (super computer) Nokia n900
all we need is maemo 6 and more apps much much more game
the n900 is the best thing since the Nokia n95 and the e90 in my option

[ZShakespeare]

You can't really compare a 1Ghz snapdragon to a 600Mhz Arm A8 using clock speed alone, they are completely different processors and those numbers don't really mean much of anything unless you compare them to processors of the same family.
If you look at Android on the Nexus One and Maemo on the n900 you would be hard pressed to find a performance difference, because the major difference is the operating system.
Also we already know from the M6 slideshow that the next device will be built on the same hardware platform, OMAP3, OpenGL ES, etc. It also specifies that multitouch will be available for capacitive touchscreen devices. indicating that it will also still support resistive touchscreen devices (Why wouldn't it?). This means the is no reason to assume that Nokia would need to maintain two maemo for two architectures.

[AlMehdi]

Ajflex: Read my post again. I wasn't flaiming. I love the openess of Maemo but still this is a device i will use for at least 3 years. I will not use the same OS for 3 years. It is great that Maemo 6 will come to the N900. That might make it worth it.. but i do not think it is enough.

Capacitive or resisitive is nothing i care about and i hate Apple. Where did you se me write about that?

AlMehdi speak for yourself
i thick n900 is very powerful and can run maemo 6 and beyond
stop killing new product your problem that it is resistive screen dis and advantage each technology is different i prefer resistive because you use figure and stylus and physical keyboard capacitive only finger that's why multi touch

stop comparing iPhone with the (super computer) Nokia n900
all we need is maemo 6 and more apps much much more game
the n900 is the best thing since the Nokia n95 and the e90 in my option

[AlMehdi]

Thanks! You read and understod what i was asking.

So you meant the snapdragon can be compaired with Arm A8 in speed? I have not tried to compair them before but now i might do so. If what you say is true. It would be wonderful.

Do you know the differens in bus speed of the two systems?

My fear though is that 600Mhz is little in the long run. It might be okey for the Maemo5 and 6 but what about the future?

If i get a device with 1000Mhz i will increase my chance of using the latest and best. If the updates of Maemo stop after version 6 i will need to try other OS's like Ubuntu (Arm) and here 600Mhz could be to slow. I know fennec is under development and will get better. The browser will be my most used device. I will get Java and Flash support.

This things need power.

You can't really compare a 1Ghz snapdragon to a 600Mhz Arm A8 using clock speed alone, they are completely different processors and those numbers don't really mean much of anything unless you compare them to processors of the same family.
If you look at Android on the Nexus One and Maemo on the n900 you would be hard pressed to find a performance difference, because the major difference is the operating system.
Also we already know from the M6 slideshow that the next device will be built on the same hardware platform, OMAP3, OpenGL ES, etc. It also specifies that multitouch will be available for capacitive touchscreen devices. indicating that it will also still support resistive touchscreen devices (Why wouldn't it?). This means the is no reason to assume that Nokia would need to maintain two maemo for two architectures.

[ZShakespeare]

What I am saying is that a 600mhz Arm processor can be just as fast as a 1000mhz snapdragon processor depending on what it is doing. Honestly though what happens after Maemo 6? I think that if you are looking to buy a phone that will still be top line after 3 or 4 years down the road, you will be engaging in an exercise in futility. There is always something better on the horizon in this industry.

There is NO phone that exists right now that will run a desktop linux distro like ubuntu at what most would consider a reasonable speed.

[ajflex]

AlMehdi no offence

Nokia over all its my thing

1ghz snapdragon vs arm cortex a8 processor

Qualcomm Snapdragon QSD8650 RISC Chipset
Simplified Technical Specifications

Type: Snapdragon QSD8650
Manufacturer: Qualcomm
Year Released: 2007
Predecessor: 32bit Qualcomm MSM7600
Characteristics
CPU Structure (complexity): RISC
Width of Machine Word: 32 bit
Primary (RAM) Data bus: 32 bit
Instruction Set
Supported Instruction Set(s): ARMv7
CPU Core: Qualcomm Scorpion
Clock Frequencies
Recommanded Maximum Clock Frequency: 1000 MHz
Technology
Semiconductor Technology: CMOS
Minimum Feature Size: 65 nm
Additional Details
Special Features: Embedded 600MHz DSP (GSM, GPRS, EDGE, UMTS/WCDMA, HSDPA, HSUPA, MBMS, CDMA2000 1xRTT, CDMA2000 1xEV-DO, CDMA2000 1xEV-DO Rev. 1, CDMA2000 1xEV-DO Rev. B, baseband), Embedded Seventh-generation gpsOne GPS module, gpsOneXTRA Assistance
Datasheet Time: Apr 22, 09 0:21:59






ARM Cortex-A8 RISC Microprocessor
Simplified Technical Specifications

Type: Cortex-A8
Manufacturer: ARM
Year Released: 2005
Predecessor: 32bit ARM 1176JZ-S
Characteristics
CPU Structure (complexity): RISC
Width of Machine Word: 32 bit
Address bus: 32 bit
Primary (RAM) Data bus: 32 bit
Instruction Set
Supported Instruction Set(s): ARMv7-A
CPU Core: ARM Cortex
Caches
Level 1 cache: 32KiB data cache / 32 KiB instruction cache
Level 2 cache: 1024 KiB
Technology
Semiconductor Technology: CMOS
Minimum Feature Size: 65 nm
Additional Details
Instruction Execution Performance: 2000 million instructions per second @ 1000MHz
Special Features: Superscalar processor, Configurable L1 and L2 cache sizes, 13-stage pipeline, FPU, MMU, AMBA 3.0 AXI bus, NEON Media Processing technology, ARM Thumb-2 Technology, ARM TrustZone Technology, ARM CoreSight, ARM Jazelle RCT
Datasheet Time: Sep 4, 07 17:10:

[ajflex]

look carefully that the cortex arm 8a have fastest cache 1 mb
that is than snapdragon have cache 256 kb not as fast as the cortex

[ajflex]

the arm cortex a8 is more powerful than the snapdragon.
and much much more feature has you can see

[Helmuth]

Why are you comparing here the Prozessors?

The most of the time is the N900 running at 250MHz, not 600MHz... don't think about Prozessor speed. Think about the Battery!

[attila77]

This is a user-perception thing. Battery parameters don't sell devices, GHz is much better from a marketing perspective. You would have thought since desktop processors made clock speed far less relevant people would would not buy into the same selling pitch again. Apparently they still do :S

[AlMehdi]

Thanks guys! This is what a community should be. This is why i now have ordered a N900. I have peaked at the droid community and could not find much. That might change.. anyway you are the best!

Now i just need to figure out or find an OS that just run the core phone functions and dual boot with Maemo. So i can save battery. :)

That is might be litte ot and should be discussed in another topic.

[nightfire]

Thanks guys! This is what a community should be. This is why i now have ordered a N900. I have peaked at the droid community and could not find much. That might change.. anyway you are the best!

Now i just need to figure out or find an OS that just run the core phone functions and dual boot with Maemo. So i can save battery. :)

That is might be litte ot and should be discussed in another topic.

Welcome! :) We are unix hackers, embedded hardware designers and curious tweakers. I've had my n900 (first Nokia device in 10 years) for about a month now and it's the coolest piece of tech I've owned in ages.

A debian box in your pocket. :D

[arbitrabbit]

Why are you comparing here the Prozessors?

The most of the time is the N900 running at 250MHz, not 600MHz... don't think about Prozessor speed. Think about the Battery!

Hear Hear. I used to develop software for hi-tech watches and I think the lessons hold true for most battery powered devices. For us, the struggle was not to have a fast processor but low idle power consumption and how often could be keep the processor idle. Anything above 1% average CPU consumption was considered bad. So yes, snapdragon may have a faster clock speed than A8 but what would be more important to us is how efficient is the pipeline and power consumption, though of course thanks to Intel, most device manufacturers would push frequency over efficiency (easier to use one number than explaining the detail)

[jcompagner]

why are many discussion the mhz/ghz here.. my next phone after the N900 needs to be a dual core. if i just look where i wait the most on on my N900 then a few mhz more will not help me..

so many times some application takes to much cpu that for example if the phone rings its very hard to pickup the phone because of lack of cpu cycles.

if i see what the dual core brought me on the desktop, then thats what i want on the phone, programs dont have to really run faster (if it now cost 5 seconds and a faster cpu brings that down to 3 then that still means that everything has to wait 3 seconds which is an eternithy). but ui input should always have cpu cycles for it to handle even if another program is now using a lot...

but the next device wont be a Cortex A9, cant believe that yet. but i guess it will be a sligtly faster A8 and hopefully it will be a omap36x version (45nm)
and then the next device after that one is a dual core A9...

[VDVsx]

FYI, the Maemo6 UI library[1] is already available in the extras-devel repository, install the dui-demos packages if you want to see the performance of some demos running in the N900 :)

[1] -http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search[1][property]=name&org_maemo_packages_search[1][constraint]=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search[1][value]=dui

[mrojas]

From Ari Jaaksi blog

"Will there be a full MeeGo port on N900? I'm pretty sure there will be a MeeGo port on N900 for those who wanna play with it. There is also an Andoid, Mac, ..and god knows what ports available. It is an open devivice. N900 will run a lot of MeeGo apps ... and developers and users will fully utilize it."

(http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2010/02/this-is-next-step-step-forward.html#3544283825241288872)

Interpret this as you want, but for me, this means no official distribution of MeeGo for the N900, unless it is a provided through hacking by the community.

[Kajko]

From Ari Jaaksi blog

"Will there be a full MeeGo port on N900? I'm pretty sure there will be a MeeGo port on N900 for those who wanna play with it. There is also an Andoid, Mac, ..and god knows what ports available. It is an open devivice. N900 will run a lot of MeeGo apps ... and developers and users will fully utilize it."

(http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2010/02/this-is-next-step-step-forward.html#3544283825241288872)

Interpret this as you want, but for me, this means no official distribution of MeeGo for the N900, unless it is a provided through hacking by the community.

Exactly. Which to me is a bunch of crap.

[mrojas]

Exactly. Which to me is a bunch of crap.

Repeating what I wrote in another thread: "Maybe it isn't clear, but the reason people is asking for Maemo 6 on their N900 is because the OS itself is perceived to be lacking in many areas, and they would rather have an official, Nokia launch of the new software, instead of waiting for the community to pick up the job (which may or may not happen quickly).

Consider also that Maemo is so far monolithic, if there is a bug in, let's say, Modest, so far you won't be able to install Maemo 6 Modest, you need the whole block of the OS. That's a situation that presented itself in Diablo and the whole "Fixed in Fremantle" issue. "

[Rob1n]

Consider also that Maemo is so far monolithic, if there is a bug in, let's say, Modest, so far you won't be able to install Maemo 6 Modest, you need the whole block of the OS. That's a situation that presented itself in Diablo and the whole "Fixed in Fremantle" issue. "

You certainly can update any of the (open source) components whenever you want. Nokia are only pushing out the updates in monolithic patch-sets, but there's nothing preventing you from compiling & installing your own fixed version before then (someone has already put up their own repository for doing just this).

[messus]

what is harmattan bring to the table that maemo 5 doesnt already do...

i really just thought the aim for that was more towards the older tablets since the hardware was dated in comparison to the n900

It will bring the most important and most missed feature : FULL PORTRAIT MODE

[Helmuth]

It will bring the most important and most missed feature : FULL PORTRAIT MODE

Not really. But also some fixes for IMAP email. (store send messages on the server)