N900 on The Engadget Show

[Capt'n Corrupt]

I haven't watched it (the video is HUGE), but apparently the N900 is getting the spotlight on the first ever airing of The Engadget Show. Nokia sponsored the event.

It should be a good watch!
http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/17/the-engadget-show-001-jon-rubinstein-bit-shifter-ipod-event/

Enjoy.

}:^]~

[nilchak]

I thought Engadget wouldn't pan it at all - since they don't seem to be appreciative of anything Nokia - but of course maybe the Nokia sponsorship helped ?

[Laughing Man]

I wonder if they are going bash it some more for having a resistive touch screen. >.>

[Capt'n Corrupt]

Well, Joshua has already cracked on Nokia saying something to the effect of "they need all the help they can get," which is bad form considering the statement that they couldn't have done the show without Nokia at the shows start.

I'm curious as to the treatment the N900 will get, but I haven't watched that far yet.

}:^(~

[Capt'n Corrupt]

It's a bit annoying listening to Joshua talk. He needs to stop finishing the sentences of his guest (Palm CEO), and let him talk more and tell his story..

}:^/~

[epilido]

wow I am glad they have a lot of bandwidth the ipod version is 700meg!!!! Yikes


the hd version is 1.6 gig.......have they never heard of compression???????


Epi

[jandmdickerson]

I thought Engadget wouldn't pan it at all - since they don't seem to be appreciative of anything Nokia - but of course maybe the Nokia sponsorship helped ?


Well looks like Nokia is finally listening to me....:D

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=317693&postcount=18

[epoch24]

video won't play on my pc :(

it doesnt paly on mine as well

[sachin007]

The so called n900 part starts from 55:10 to 60:00.

There is nothing in there regarding the device. Joshua is an idiot who is blinded by apple and again brings the resistive vs capacitative thing.
I hate engadget and thier apple centric fanboyism. Why did nokia sponsor this show. They could have sponsored a community show which would have been 10000000x better than what they discussed about the n900.

[GeneralAntilles]

I hate engadget and thier apple centric fanboyism. Why did nokia sponsor this show. They could have sponsored a community show which would have been 10000000x better than what they discussed about the n900.

Engadget has been on a steady decline since Block left.

[JayOnThaBeat]

He says the touchscreen sucks, but he also refers to the OS as "May-Mo."

Maybe his finger swiping is as weak as his pronunciation research......

[JayOnThaBeat]

Guy on the end (Paul Miller):

"I wish it had a touchscreen keyboard!"

Idiots.

[mrojas]

Guy on the end (Paul Miller):

"I wish it had a touchscreen keyboard!"

Idiots.

What...

Well, in the positive side, the open nature of Maemo makes possible to add a touchscreen keyboard.

Can you add a physical keyboard to an iPhone?

...:D

[R-R]

Wow, i thought they'd at least try... Please nokia don't give these *****s a dime... go try with Gizmodo maybe? or others?

[sachin007]

Wow, i thought they'd at least try... Please nokia don't give these *****s a dime... go try with Gizmodo maybe? or others?

Why gizmodo?

Just imagine a similar show with timsamoff, qole and anyone from nokia with their devices. It would be 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000x Better than what those idiots put up!

[GeneralAntilles]

Well, in the positive side, the open nature of Maemo makes possible to add a touchscreen keyboard.


Yeah, well, except for the fact that they already include one (http://images.dailymobile.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/maemo5-keyboard.jpg). ;)

[bbin]

There is an on screen keyboard also. Bloody idiots. Full of engadgetism.

[quipper8]

man, these guys are just total a-holes. can't stand them

[Capt'n Corrupt]

Haha... Not quite the N900 review I had in mind. Still, they really didn't say anything bad about the phone other than the resistive wasn't as 'good as capacitive'. They even squeaked in a few praises.

Considering how they generally rip into Nokia, this is a huge win for the N900 and a fine testament to its build quality and the general implementation of the device and OS.

}:^)~

[TedMilker]

What I thought was most telling was that they had so little to complain about. If the best they can come up with is resistive touch screen and brief anecdotal statements about "when it works", that is fine with me.

But really, this was no serious review or even an attempt at it. It was a "We have five minutes left in a really long first show and we need to unwind a bit." I am not putting a lot of weight into it.

[ioioio]

I haven't watched it (the video is HUGE), but apparently the N900 is getting the spotlight on the first ever airing of The Engadget Show. Nokia sponsored the event.

It should be a good watch!
http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/17/the-engadget-show-001-jon-rubinstein-bit-shifter-ipod-event/

Enjoy.

}:^]~

I would like to take back my thanks Capt'n Corrupt. :) That was the least informative 5 minutes of video (n900 starts at 55min mark) I've seen in a long time. I've seen more informative Pokémon cartoons than this.

[Capt'n Corrupt]

@Jay
Yeah, those complaints were about the screen and unfortunately made up much of the discussion. However, they did praise aspects of the os briefly (multi-tasking and smoothness), and didn't otherwise complain about the device.

I would have much preferred if they got off the 'resistive < capacitive' rant that they've beaten to death on the blog. An actual inspection into the device that's more than skin deep (quite literally in this case) would have been nice.

it seemed as if they were exploring the device for the first time.. The individual that had it in his pocket didn't know that there was an on-screen keyboard..... :p

}:^)~

[Capt'n Corrupt]

I would like to take back my thanks Capt'n Corrupt. :) That was the least informative 5 minutes of video (n900 starts at 55min mark) I've seen in a long time. I've seen more informative Pokémon cartoons than this.

Don't worry, I shant keep you awake. I weep softly.... :D

In all seriousness....

I know this forum that engages in discussion to improve maemo generally likes maemo/nokia advocacy, but I suppose it's helpful to get a broader view of perspectives from outside the walls of this utopian society. I don't know of any challenges that have been surmounted by pretending they didn't exist.

}:^)~

[JayBomb999]

I agree with the sentiment that Engadget has declined deeper into Apple Fanboy-ism since Ryan Block left, however...

Josh does demonstrate the responsiveness (or lack thereof) of the N900's screen and I can tell you as an American, this demonstration will unfortunately resonate with many US consumers for whom the iPhone, and to a much lesser extent extent the Palm Pre and Android, are the only touchscreen phone(s) worth consideration.

It's pretty hard to argue that a capacitive screen isn't more satisfying and easier to use when navigating with your finger. Perhaps not by much, but Josh's demo is telling--whether you like it or not.

[sachin007]

I agree with the sentiment that Engadget has declined deeper into Apple Fanboy-ism since Ryan Block left, however...

Josh does demonstrate the responsiveness (or lack thereof) of the N900's screen and I can tell you as an American, this demonstration will unfortunately resonate with many US consumers for whom the iPhone, and to a much lesser extent extent the Palm Pre and Android, are the only touchscreen phone(s) worth consideration.

It's pretty hard to argue that a capacitive screen isn't more satisfying and easier to use when navigating with your finger. Perhaps not by much, but Josh's demo is telling--whether you like it or not.

I agree capacitative is more responsive but is worth compared to multi-tasking?

[Crashdamage]

That was the least informative 5 minutes of video (n900 starts at 55min mark) I've seen in a long time.
I second that notion. I feel like I just completely wasted my time. It's not that they kinda bagged on Nokia and the N900. It's that they had no idea what they were talking about and had absolutely nothing worthwhile to say - good or bad.

Mostly, seemed they were trying to be funny, not informative. Ended up being neither.

[Ludio]

I personally liked that they brought up new technology that may include capacitive touch with character recognition for foreign languages which is possible as I read across the net somewhere. Its not a bad argument to present and ask for a step above the rest approach if u have the funds and want to make a mark why NOT? My only real complaint as I felt I was looking at a bunch a misinformed men talk tech was the nokia n900 does have a onscreen keyboard like if he bothered to click a box write a text or something on the device he would have saw that which i guess they didn't have time to at all play with it... If Nokia your sponsoring the show why not allow quality time with the device before hand so at least they are not talking out there arse...

[Bratag]

You can see when the tool running the show is swiping - the screen is partially moving but he just isnt swiping far enough - not a problem with the screen - a problem with him being an Apple fanboy (surprise surprise) and not having bothered to understand the OS/phone at all.

[Laughing Man]

I agree capacitative is more responsive but is worth compared to multi-tasking?

I also thought resistive touch screens were capable of a higher resolution and pixel density. Doesn't the n800 have a better resolution and pixel density then the iPhone 3GS? o.O

Anyway, I really dislike their bashing of resistive touch screens. Especially from watching the video, he said it wasn't working well and you could see the desktops start to slide (haha). Perhaps they just don't understand resistive touch screens and how they work (with force) rather than capactative (with electricity). Them bashing resistive is like me bashing my cousin's iPhone 3G because when I tried to use it I couldn't get it to work (I'm guessing when your use to one way, fingernail or finger your use to it). But finger scrolling is possible on the n800 with certain software like Mauku and now based on anedoctal evidence from users here the resistive touch screen in the n900 is even better so it should allow moderate finger usage (though not as easy as the iPhone where you don't even have to exert any force).

What...

Well, in the positive side, the open nature of Maemo makes possible to add a touchscreen keyboard.

Can you add a physical keyboard to an iPhone?

...:D

Actually you can. But it's a hardware modification/addition. So it's even more unfriendly to most users. =P (it works the same way as those developing game pads for the iPhone. I believe it connects through the dock)

[JayBomb999]

@sachin007

In my opinion definitely not. That's why I don't own an iPhone and have an N900 pre-ordered. ;)

However, I am a "tech-enthusiast", "early adopter" and "Geek" that Nokia claims to be targeting this device to. In other words, a minority opinion. :-/

[NZtechfreak]

@laughingman: Capacitive touch screens capable of the same resolutions as resistive as far as I'm aware (at least WVGA)

I'm sick to death of the touch technology debate. Clearly capacitive is best for finger, and also build quality as it lets you use hardened glass, but in many markets (like asia) being able to use a stylus is very popular due to pictographic written languages. I just wish HTC would hurry up and produce their patented capacitive stylus, the one that is the same thickness as a regular stylus and not one of the horrible ones available now, then we can relegate this argument - simply ship all capacitive screens with a decent stylus - end of debate.

[Ludio]

I also thought resistive touch screens were capable of a higher resolution and pixel density. Doesn't the n800 have a better resolution and pixel density then the iPhone 3GS? o.O

Hmmmm the screen tech as as far as i know has no bearing on the phones resolution the new HTC Leo is a 4.3in capacitive screen with the same resolution as the N900. Its the limit of the components used to render the display and choices of the odm not the screen be it resistive or capacitive.

[JayOnThaBeat]

Don't worry, I shant keep you awake. I weep softly.... :D


}:^)~

http://sadviolin.com

:D

[Laughing Man]

Ah, I got that idea from somewhere off this forum. But thanks for the correct info.

[aikon800]

The first sentence he should have said was that he is holding a prototype version and the software might change for the final product. But he didn't, that's the peanut brain category persons.

Anyway The n900 looked very small in hands and very pocketable, seems very promising phone then for sure. :)

[mrojas]

Yeah, well, except for the fact that they already include one (http://images.dailymobile.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/maemo5-keyboard.jpg). ;)

Ah, thanks man. I thought I had read somewhere that the on-screen keyboard was removed (the stylus one?).

I can't shake the feeling that when they were trying the N900 he wasn't even trying on the screen, just so they can claim later "it is worst than capacitive." It amazes me that such people get so much consideration... at least they have been called on their crap on the comments on their blog lately.

[Laughing Man]

Eww is that really the on screen keyboard? Is that just the full one like in Maemo 4? Is there a smaller one more similar to the iPhone? Not like Maemo 4 where the keys are so small you need a stylus or careful aim.

But yeah, they do give resistive more crap than it warrants. Yes it's less sensitive then capacitative when it comes to using your fingers (not fingernails). Does that mean it sucks? No, it's still usable, you just have to apply a little force. You can't just glide over it like you do with capacitative.

[Capt'n Corrupt]

Yeah the on-screen in Maemo 4 stinks (though I still use it for quick one-offs).. From what it seems like in maemo 4, the Onscreen is an app, which should make it pretty easy to replace with something more functional and less screen hungry. Hopefully the same is true for Maemo 5.

This type of thing could easily be implemented in python. Perhaps it's worth look into (somebody other than me)...

}:^)~

[redstar1949]

ok, i've been following this resistive vs. capacitive debate for a really long time.

I've owned a resistive phone before (T-Mobile MDA), and I just absolutely hated them. I don't have finger nails, and I just like capacitive screens. But I'm in love with Maemo5.

Does anyone know if Maemo5 will be on other devices with capacitive screens? I just don't know if i can take another resistive screen...

[Laughing Man]

It's quite possible. And considering Maemo6 will have multi-touch I'm guessing Nokia is planning on moving towards capacitative? I'm guessing the reason why they're not used more often is expense compared to the more established resistive tech.

[Bratag]

I will be honest - I have had several resistive HTC phones before and I never had any issue using them with a finger - Hell i still use one of them as my main GPS. Maybe I just have bony fingers.

[mhotep]

OK. If Engadget has a phone. Can they not give us a first look or hands on review? Or did I miss it. That 4 minute talk didn't tell me anything.

[ioioio]

Anyway The n900 looked very small in hands and very pocketable, seems very promising phone then for sure. :)

Actually, No, it looks bad. The n810 screen and keyboard are perfect. In the n900 they shrunk the screen and the keyboard looks like its going to be a huge handicap. If they actually tried to do something useful on the show, like oh maybe use the phone and type on it, we could get a feel for it.

[GeneralAntilles]

Yeah the on-screen in Maemo 4 stinks (though I still use it for quick one-offs)..


********. The on-screen keyboard gets me up over 40wpm. It's not ideal, but it certainly doesn't stink.

[ioioio]

OK. If Engadget has a phone. Can they not give us a first look or hands on review? Or did I miss it. That 4 minute talk didn't tell me anything.

Here is an actual hands on review of the phone.

http://www.umpcportal.com/2009/09/jkk-gets-hands-on-with-the-nokia-n900-video-and-podcast/

[aikon800]

Actually, No, it looks bad. The n810 screen and keyboard are perfect. In the n900 they shrunk the screen and the keyboard looks like its going to be a huge handicap. If they actually tried to do something useful on the show, like oh maybe use the phone and type on it, we could get a feel for it.

ahhh... N900 was made as a phone, the N810 is just a tablet, so yah as a phone its compact enought to retain the features...not bad.;)

Smaller screen bad though. :cool:

[Capt'n Corrupt]

********. The on-screen keyboard gets me up over 40wpm. It's not ideal, but it certainly doesn't stink.

********. You're typing speed has little to do with how much I enjoy the on-screen... ;)

Haha.... Seriously though as a primary user of the on-screen, IMO there's a whole lotta room for improvement. I would like to see a variant that didn't take up the entire screen but could still be used easily with the finger.

}:^)~

[ioioio]

ahhh... N900 was made as a phone, the N810 is just a tablet,

Wasn't the n97 (http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/devices/nokia-n97#/main/landing)supposed to be the phone and the nXXX the mobile internet tablets? Is the n900 is supposed to replace the n97? I'm confused.

[mhotep]

Here is an actual hands on review of the phone.

http://www.umpcportal.com/2009/09/jkk-gets-hands-on-with-the-nokia-n900-video-and-podcast/

Yeah I've seen it. Just wondering why they haven't done their own review. They usually do.

[tso]

if noia could lend him one, jkk would probably review it. he seems to be phone hunting right now...

btw, on the screen thing, have anyone considered the difference between finland and california?

[access]

I agree capacitative is more responsive but is worth compared to multi-tasking?

Sometimes too responsive, just take a look at Engadget's Zune HD review where they try to demo the apps and browser and accidentally activates stuff all the time. :)

[Architengi]

I thought BoyGeniusReport is the worst biased reviewer, but Joshua is 100 times more lame:

Joshua-quote: >>> "This N900 resistive simply does NOT work, a touch device that cannot be used with fingers... It's BAD... I mean is not THAT bad, but for a 800 US$ device... someone needs to tell Nokia how to do things, me, a person with experience, someone should go there and stop the production lines"

[UCOMM]

I agree with the sentiment that Engadget has declined deeper into Apple Fanboy-ism since Ryan Block left, however...

Josh does demonstrate the responsiveness (or lack thereof) of the N900's screen and I can tell you as an American, this demonstration will unfortunately resonate with many US consumers for whom the iPhone, and to a much lesser extent extent the Palm Pre and Android, are the only touchscreen phone(s) worth consideration.

It's pretty hard to argue that a capacitive screen isn't more satisfying and easier to use when navigating with your finger. Perhaps not by much, but Josh's demo is telling--whether you like it or not.

i dunno, every other video i've seen on the n900, people don't seem to have a problem scrolling around

[ysss]

Can we please not be whiny fanboys here?

It doesn't help to cuss and curse at 'apple fanboys' out there when we're displaying a form of our own lame fanboyism here.

[qgil]

I'm simply happy that this happened, no matter what the content was.

Using a mobile OS and device that is new to you when you are actually happy about the mobile device and OS you are familiar with it's a bit like finding a new lover while you are so used to love someone. It takes time to stop trying to find the old lover in the new one, no matter how good your new lover is.

But I guess most of us learned great things from new lovers? Any emotional relationship has a first encounter.

[tso]

I thought BoyGeniusReport is the worst biased reviewer, but Joshua is 100 times more lame:

Joshua-quote: >>> "This N900 resistive simply does NOT work, a touch device that cannot be used with fingers... It's BAD... I mean is not THAT bad, but for a 800 US$ device... someone needs to tell Nokia how to do things, me, a person with experience, someone should go there and stop the production lines"

I find myself reminded of the palm foleo, and how engadget, imo, over stepped by sending a open letter questioning the product...

[joshua.maverick]

Yea Josh is annoying as hell, an insult to a good name lol. Honestly, did you see him TRY to not use the resistive, it's resistive, it's not going to work like capacitive, press down a bit. Really annoying how they do this, I bet he's sleeping with Steve Jobs.

[R-R]

I was just scrolling on the n810 with my finger through a heavy boxwave screen protector, almost not touching the screen and it worked...

wtf is he talking about? Are people getting handicapped? :P

[allnameswereout]

Wow, finally I found people who are more *****ic than I am :)

[GeneralAntilles]

Honestly, did you see him TRY to not use the resistive, it's resistive, it's not going to work like capacitive, press down a bit.

I see this all of the time in videos with iPhone users demoing resistive hardware. They always exaggeratedly poke at the screen "trying" to get a response to "prove" how much better resistive is.

Goes to show exactly how important marketing really is.

[Architengi]

Yea Josh is annoying as hell, an insult to a good name lol. Honestly, did you see him TRY to not use the resistive, it's resistive, it's not going to work like capacitive, press down a bit. Really annoying how they do this, I bet he's sleeping with Steve Jobs.

And the whole first engadget show was sponsored by NOKIA, and right now Nokia is running top payed banner adds on his engadget site... and simply this guy josh slammed Nokia bad, bad. The device was presented at the end of the show, and actually no focus on the device, no specs, nothing. just slam, slam, slam... because he cannot use it by not touching with a bit more pressure, pressure is needed for resistive, if he does not know that, stop making phone reviews and get a life... :D

[allnameswereout]

Using a mobile OS and device that is new to you when you are actually happy about the mobile device and OS you are familiar with it's a bit like finding a new lover while you are so used to love someone. It takes time to stop trying to find the old lover in the new one, no matter how good your new lover is.Yes, understanding creates compassion. But that doesn't make his statements less biased.

Try explaining to Jenny you said "ohhh Maria" while making love to her.

Anyway, its Engadget. Move along, move along.

[tso]

Yea Josh is annoying as hell, an insult to a good name lol. Honestly, did you see him TRY to not use the resistive, it's resistive, it's not going to work like capacitive, press down a bit. Really annoying how they do this, I bet he's sleeping with Steve Jobs.
for of habit, bordering on indoctrination...

btw, i recall seeing someone try "pinching" a image on the N900 from one of the nokia world videos...

habits, when spread in a social context becomes culture and/or religion...

[ioioio]

And the whole first engadget show was sponsored by NOKIA, and right now Nokia is running top payed banner adds on his engadget site...

If these guys can run a money making gadget site, how hard can it be? What could it take to have gadget section in Maemo where people can post gadget reviews?

[vkv.raju]

Ok, now let me do the honors!

Junk, St*pid, Id*ot, Lame, Nonsense, Crap, Bullsh*t, Mor*ns, Useless, Waste, Senseless :D

[romanianusa]

Boring unprofessional goofy uninspiring trying too hard to be funny and not nervous going a long type of show!! BOOO

[qole]

Even this (http://bit.ly/KCYMl) is a better review than the Engadget one. And it's hard to decide which inspires more lust, the N900 or the B0085.


(yeah, I tweeted this one earlier, but it's funny)

[HangLoose]

Can we please not be whiny fanboys here?

It doesn't help to cuss and curse at 'apple fanboys' out there when we're displaying a form of our own lame fanboyism here.

Yes guys... lets stop trashing the forum here...
LETS TRASH THEEEEIR FORUM... WOHOOOOO :D

[Architengi]

>> It doesn't help to cuss and curse at 'apple fanboys' out there...



Yes guys... lets stop trashing the forum here...
LETS TRASH THEEEEIR FORUM... WOHOOOOO :D

LOL

[tso]

Even this (http://bit.ly/KCYMl) is a better review than the Engadget one. And it's hard to decide which inspires more lust, the N900 or the B0085.


(yeah, I tweeted this one earlier, but it's funny)

i see no B0085...

[qole]

i see no B0085...

I thought it would be obvious, but maybe I'm being too obscure (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080226215519AAnqnD4). It's an old digital calculator joke. 8=B, 5=S.

[tso]

its been ages since i last looked at a old gray scale calc...

and these days, its 1337-speak, no?

[ragnar]

Suspicion towards resistive screens and preference towards capacitive screens is somewhat understandable, because historically there have been very many bad experiences with resistive screens and some very well known good experiences with capacitive screens.

But it's an unfortunate mistake to make the association totally related to the screen technology. You can make a pretty good resistive experience, that's what the N900 shows. I'm all for finger usage, but having the ability to occasionally pop out the stylus for certain web pages is really actually also quite nice.

The experience is as strong as the weakest link. I'm pretty sure you can make a pretty bad experience also with a resistive display, providing your display drivers and SW then doesn't properly react to the input signals that the drivers provide.

[YoDude]

Suspicion towards resistive screens and preference towards capacitive screens is somewhat understandable, because historically there have been very many bad experiences with resistive screens and some very well known good experiences with capacitive screens.

But it's an unfortunate mistake to make the association totally related to the screen technology. You can make a pretty good resistive experience, that's what the N900 shows. I'm all for finger usage, but having the ability to occasionally pop out the stylus for certain web pages is really actually also quite nice.

The experience is as strong as the weakest link. I'm pretty sure you can make a pretty bad experience also with a resistive display, providing your display drivers and SW then doesn't properly react to the input signals that the drivers provide.

Agreed. To me the argument has always been a veiled comparison to the iPhone... a way to compare a new device to the iPhone without using the word iPhone and risk turning off viewers who may be sick of hearing about the dang iPhone. (^that bit used the word 4 times... sickening :p )

What isn't often mentioned is the clock speed of the device the screens are attached to. Comparing one technology to the other on a device that could have almost double the CPU horsepower is a bit ingenuous if you ask me.

I wonder how the two technologies would compare with the same CPU, OS, but at various ambient temperatures. :)

[msoini]

I thought BoyGeniusReport is the worst biased reviewer, but Joshua is 100 times more lame:

Joshua-quote: >>> "This N900 resistive simply does NOT work, a touch device that cannot be used with fingers... It's BAD... I mean is not THAT bad, but for a 800 US$ device... someone needs to tell Nokia how to do things, me, a person with experience, someone should go there and stop the production lines"

Now, people are entitled to their own opinions, of course. Personally, to me it feels a bit unwise to make absolute statements on behalf of every person, with what feels like very little actual experience with the particular device itself.

Joshua seems to expect that every piece of technology should behave EXACTLY like the capacitive technology works. Given that resistive technology is simply physically different from capacitive, you really can't make 1-to-1 comparisons in terms of what you exactly do with the finger... at least if you want to be a bit more objective about it.

What happens when some technology beyond capacitive comes to devices? Is Joshua going to be ranting about how bad capacitive is then?

Anyways, to put it very roughly, the resistive screens in general need slightly more pressure from the finger to work correctly. With that in mind, the screen can be very responsive.

I use both capacitive and resistive touchscreens every day, and I have no problems jumping from one to another.

Personally, I'm just happy that people with the desire to use stylus or who have long fingernails, or even people with gloves (in some cases) can use the resistive screen with no problems.

[tso]

What happens when some technology beyond capacitive comes to devices? Is Joshua going to be ranting about how bad capacitive is then?

only when it starts showing up on products with a logo based on half-eaten fruit ;)

[dccupp]

And the whole first engadget show was sponsored by NOKIA, and right now Nokia is running top payed banner adds on his engadget site... and simply this guy josh slammed Nokia bad, bad. The device was presented at the end of the show, and actually no focus on the device, no specs, nothing. just slam, slam, slam... because he cannot use it by not touching with a bit more pressure, pressure is needed for resistive, if he does not know that, stop making phone reviews and get a life... :D

Maybe his muscles are just too atrophied to work the resistive screen :shrug:

I found the article about what's in his bag amusing. Especially when he tries to defend his pricey metro hipster accessories in the comments esp. the colorful Steven Harrington sleeve and Jack Spade bag (MSRP $475)
http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/07/unbagging-joshua-topolsky/

Not that I have any particular problems with what he carries... but if you're going to be "secure" enough to carry stuff like that like he claims he is and then show the whole world, you ought to be secure enough to realize people are going to comment about it and just igore the negative comments. :o

[YoDude]

only when it starts showing up on products with a logo based on half-eaten fruit ;)

Ya mean like this?

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/4794601/2/istockphoto_4794601-half-eaten-banana.jpg

[Rotkaeqpchen]

Engadget Show is like having a meeting with my parents, talking about technology and devices, while knowing nothing about anything. Sorry, if i had a show and could present the N900, i would talk ABOUT THE DEVICE, not about what i like or dislike...

[dccupp]

Ya mean like this?

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/4794601/2/istockphoto_4794601-half-eaten-banana.jpg

That's just Bananas TM ;)

[nilchak]

Quite frankly overall the show was lame.
Josh in particular was TRYING to be funny on every line - which he doesn't realise takes away from any serious conversation.

Why do these guys have to review product with that hackneyed made up funny bone ? It really not that funny at all.

And secondly because of this attitude - they were actually trying to make jokes on nearly every product - the Moto Cliq, Blur, the Nano's with the tiny cameras and of course the N900.

I liked it at least when Josh said that its not really Apple's fault cause they were under so much pressure (as usual the Apple sucker) and Nilay interjected and said the ONLY pressure was to put the camera into the iPod Touch and instead they go put it into the Nano. And Josh was - "oh I am not trying to be apologetic for Apple " or some such back-tracking. Lame sucker at that !

And of course the silliest act of the show was the swiping gesture on the N900 by Josh - come on put some brains into that head full of hairs - its resistive screen - Nokia SAID SO.

And Paul was even sillier - "I love soft keyboards" - like they are manna from heaven.

I just felt like I was watching three rich snotty college kids with an attitude reviewing tech gadgets without a basic sense of technology or market economics.

[bbin]

I found the article about what's in his bag amusing. Especially when he tries to defend his pricey metro hipster accessories in the comments esp. the colorful Steven Harrington sleeve and Jack Spade bag (MSRP $475)
http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/07/u...shua-topolsky/

Looking at all those accessories I would have thought that he would be dressing pretty well for a show which had lots of viewers. But instead this guy shows up on stage wearing sneakers, unfitting jeans and an unfitting shirt. Seems like you can not buy good taste in fashion :)

sorry I had to :D

[Bratag]

Looking at all those accessories I would have thought that he would be dressing pretty well for a show which had lots of viewers. But instead this guy shows up on stage wearing sneakers, unfitting jeans and an unfitting shirt. Seems like you can not buy good taste in fashion :)

sorry I had to :D

Agree. He looked like a bag lady

[tso]

i'm surprised the bad did not hold a DSLR...

still, 4 phones?!

[JayBomb999]

@ Resistive screen fans and apologists

First of all, with the exception of the theme music, I thought the Engadget Show was pretty lousy. His 'demo' (and I use that word loosely) of the N900 was nothing short of childish. With that said, I do think his halfhearted attempt to use the touch screen is telling.

I'm tired of the screen debate but I'd like to give a perspective on this topic that I don't often read about (especially in this forum)--the perspective of a first time buyer. I have never owned a smart phone before. I have been in the market waiting for the 'perfect' phone for awhile and I think the N900 is the closest to matching my idea of perfection.

Still, with all the great things about this device, I am buying it in SPITE of the resistive screen--certainly not because of it. When I see people in these forums touting the 'ability' to use a stylus _in 2009_ as a good thing, I just shake my head. To me as potential new user, not having to EVER use a stylus is a much more desirable feature.

[dccupp]

@ Resistive screen fans and apologists

First of all, with the exception of the theme music, I thought the Engadget Show was pretty lousy. His 'demo' (and I use that word loosely) of the N900 was nothing short of childish. With that said, I do think his halfhearted attempt to use the touch screen is telling.

I'm tired of the screen debate but I'd like to give a perspective on this topic that I don't often read about (especially in this forum)--the perspective of a first time buyer. I have never owned a smart phone before. I have been in the market waiting for the 'perfect' phone for awhile and I think the N900 is the closest to matching my idea of perfection.

Still, with all the great things about this device, I am buying it in SPITE of the resistive screen--certainly not because of it. When I see people in these forums touting the 'ability' to use a stylus _in 2009_ as a good thing, I just shake my head. To me as potential new user, not having to EVER use a stylus is a much more desirable feature.

Maybe... but what do you think about the 'ability' to use the phone with fingernails... and gloves...

[ysss]

Looking at all those accessories I would have thought that he would be dressing pretty well for a show which had lots of viewers. But instead this guy shows up on stage wearing sneakers, unfitting jeans and an unfitting shirt. Seems like you can not buy good taste in fashion :)

sorry I had to :D

lol.. this is precisely what I had in mind.
when I think about the open source crowd.. STYLE and FASHION are the two foremost words that are associated with us.

Come on.. all this childish tit for tat stuffs are pretty lame. What good does a collective sigh do in our forum?

[DaveP1]

Quite frankly overall the show was lame.
Josh in particular was TRYING to be funny on every line - which he doesn't realise takes away from any serious conversation.

This is the most valid criticism of the show so far.

I just felt like I was watching three rich snotty college kids with an attitude reviewing tech gadgets without a basic sense of technology or market economics.

Engadget is meant to be a site with a bit of humor (after all, they have tags for everything from HelloKitty to RobotApocalypse). Plus, this was their first "feature length" show so I think you have to expect reviews with attitude and [attempted] humor more so than depth. I would guess they aspire to be AOTS Gadget Pron.

That said, I don't think their review was much different from what you will see when the general media start to review the N900. You need to first and foremost remember that in the US you can get a subsidized iPhone or G1 or PalmPre for a fraction of the cost of a non-subsidized N900. The expectation will be that the N900 should offer hundreds of dollars of additional value. Any area where the N900 is not better than all of the competition will be pointed out as a failure. Get used to the phrase "for the price you'd think they could have made the <blank> better."

As far as the screen debate, if it doesn't have a Wacom digitizer, it's a poor excuse for a screen. I personally would have liked the N900 to ship with a dual digitizer - active and capacitive. However the masses have not seen the benefits of active digitizers so we are stuck, for the most part, with resistive and capacitive screens. Those same masses tend to view capacitive screens as easier to use and they are right. A very well made resistive screen can, at best, be almost as easy to use with a finger as a capacitive screen but the best capacitive screen is still better for fingers than the best resistive screen.

[livefreeordie]

When I see people in these forums touting the 'ability' to use a stylus _in 2009_ as a good thing, I just shake my head. To me as potential new user, not having to EVER use a stylus is a much more desirable feature.

Why don't you EVER want to use a stylus? This desire to remove features just because they're unfashionable or something is ridiculous.

Just as one example, I'm pretty sure I'll be installing dosbox and some classic games as soon as possible. Many would be impossible to play if you obscure the action with your thumb, and the limited accuracy would be equally painful.

No one is forcing anyone to use the stylus for everyday tasks - the UI will be quite up to handling your finger. Not to mention that some of us actually prefer to use our nails. To me, my 5800 is much more pleasant to use than a capacitive screen.

So stop trying to badmouth our choice of tech. We don't want Nokia to cease using it just because it's "uncool" and gets them too much bad press to be worth it. That Engadget ***** is a complete ***.


Edit: imho the ideal solution would be a next gen resistive screen that the user can set from super sensitive to very insensitive. That way everyone could choose for themselves.

[zehjotkah]

Edit: imho the ideal solution would be a next gen resistive screen that the user can set from super sensitive to very insensitive. That way everyone could choose for themselves.

You can do something like that a little bit on the n810: while screen-calibrating press very soft on the points: it will be much more sensitive than pressing very hard on the points.

[livefreeordie]

You can do something like that a little bit on the n810: while screen-calibrating press very soft on the points: it will be much more sensitive than pressing very hard on the points.

That sounds interesting. I'll have to look into it when I get the N900. I thought it was too sensitive when I tried it out.

[jandmdickerson]

Why don't you EVER want to use a stylus? This desire to remove features just because they're unfashionable or something is ridiculous.

Just as one example, I'm pretty sure I'll be installing dosbox and some classic games as soon as possible. Many would be impossible to play if you obscure the action with your thumb, and the limited accuracy would be equally painful.

No one is forcing anyone to use the stylus for everyday tasks - the UI will be quite up to handling your finger. Not to mention that some of us actually prefer to use our nails. To me, my 5800 is much more pleasant to use than a capacitive screen.

So stop trying to badmouth our choice of tech. We don't want Nokia to cease using it just because it's "uncool" and gets them too much bad press to be worth it. That Engadget ***** is a complete ***.


Edit: imho the ideal solution would be a next gen resistive screen that the user can set from super sensitive to very insensitive. That way everyone could choose for themselves.

Agreed. With resistive I can use Xournal and annotate and edit my legal opinions when away from my desk. This is a very key feature for my business use. Fuerther, I am sure there are a hundred other good reasons not to forsake using a highly sensitive resistive screen.

[nilchak]

You can do something like that a little bit on the n810: while screen-calibrating press very soft on the points: it will be much more sensitive than pressing very hard on the points.

I didn't know it did THAT ?
Got to test it out with my N810.

[bbin]

lol.. this is precisely what I had in mind.
when I think about the open source crowd.. STYLE and FASHION are the two foremost words that are associated with us.

Come on.. all this childish tit for tat stuffs are pretty lame. What good does a collective sigh do in our forum?

Heyyy come on! Don't be such a party pooper! :D

I mean how serious must we take these things? These aren't the most important thing in life we are talking about here... Take it easy dude and a have beer or something. Its friday :D

[sevla]

A very well made resistive screen can, at best, be almost as easy to use with a finger as a capacitive screen but the best capacitive screen is still better for fingers than the best resistive screen.
Yea that's the long and short of it. I really wish the n900 had a capacitive screen. I'm sorry but the benefits far out weigh the cons (at least for me and lot of people). Plus capacitive screens tend to look better. I once did a test with my n97 and the iphone by displaying the same image on both phones at the same time and for whatever reason the n97 screen changed the hue of the image and it wasn't as bright even on the highest setting ;(.

[JayBomb999]

Why don't you EVER want to use a stylus? This desire to remove features just because they're unfashionable or something is ridiculous.

Just as one example, I'm pretty sure I'll be installing dosbox and some classic games as soon as possible. Many would be impossible to play if you obscure the action with your thumb, and the limited accuracy would be equally painful.

No one is forcing anyone to use the stylus for everyday tasks - the UI will be quite up to handling your finger. Not to mention that some of us actually prefer to use our nails. To me, my 5800 is much more pleasant to use than a capacitive screen.

So stop trying to badmouth our choice of tech. We don't want Nokia to cease using it just because it's "uncool" and gets them too much bad press to be worth it. That Engadget ***** is a complete ***.


Edit: imho the ideal solution would be a next gen resistive screen that the user can set from super sensitive to very insensitive. That way everyone could choose for themselves.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in conveying my perspective as a new smart phone buyer. The ability to use "dosbox" isn't compelling to me. Nor is using the device wearing mittens or with fingernails. I think people only "prefer" using their nails because it's what they are used to having to do. Again, I am not in this demographic.

I think using a stylus is something long time smart phone users cling to because it's what they know. I get that. However, it's not what I know or want to know and whether you like it or not, this sentiment is growing.

Call me shallow, but being fashionable does matter somewhat to me. Frankly, I think in a world where the iPhone exists, using a stylus looks silly and old fashioned. An OS that can comfortably accommodate my finger is preferable to me. Maemo 5 appears to be able to do this 90% of time and that's good enough. It's just not ideal in my opinion.

There are plenty of other great things about this device that make me want it. I'm just saying the screen, or the 'ability' to use a stylus, fingernail, mitten, etc. isn't one of them.

[hhedberg]

Using a mobile OS and device that is new to you when you are actually happy about the mobile device and OS you are familiar with it's a bit like finding a new lover while you are so used to love someone. It takes time to stop trying to find the old lover in the new one, no matter how good your new lover is.


That is exactly why I used to have a break between lovers (now I am married ;)).

But how many of us could live even a single day without Maemo? :)

[christexaport]

Despite the horrid display that was the Engadget show, people watch and trust them. We have to accept that people subscribe to their opinions, and they can feel how they wish.

Fact is, many people never used smartphones until the iPhone, so they expect a similar experience. We must do more to SHOW how the screen is more versatile. Maybe an art app for drawing, a better handwriting recognition app, comparing the various devices on video in cold weather or with dirty fingers (mechanic looking at photos of a part in the shop. Putting those hands on your iPhone??) We are not doing OUR job of showing the benefits properly, and the US market hasn't bought our idea because of it.

So how about taking the N900 out in public, showing it to people, and asking what THEY think about the screen? How about asking them how responsive it is? Compare the web experiences of various sites on the devices, screen resolution, camera. They need to SEE its better, not be told. The US market is nascent, and it will take much more education and exposure, no matter how good or bad the Engadget show is. I'm glad that came out. Maybe Nokia should've had a product specialist on that show, but they let this court jester talk about it with no background or in depth insight. Bad idea on Nokia's part. Couldn't they've sent texrat or someone??

[jandmdickerson]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in conveying my perspective as a new smart phone buyer. The ability to use "dosbox" isn't compelling to me. Nor is using the device wearing mittens or with fingernails. I think people only "prefer" using their nails because it's what they are used to having to do. Again, I am not in this demographic.

I think using a stylus is something long time smart phone users cling to because it's what they know. I get that. However, it's not what I know or want to know and whether you like it or not, this sentiment is growing.

Call me shallow, but being fashionable does matter somewhat to me. Frankly, I think in a world where the iPhone exists, using a stylus looks silly and old fashioned. An OS that can comfortably accommodate my finger is preferable to me. Maemo 5 appears to be able to do this 90% of time and that's good enough. It's just not ideal in my opinion.

There are plenty of other great things about this device that make me want it. I'm just saying the screen, or the 'ability' to use a stylus, fingernail, mitten, etc. isn't one of them.


Yes this is a fairly normal view many North American users have. But lets try it out and see if your viewpoint stays the same. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. ;)

[christexaport]

Yea that's the long and short of it. I really wish the n900 had a capacitive screen. I'm sorry but the benefits far out weigh the cons (at least for me and lot of people). Plus capacitive screens tend to look better. I once did a test with my n97 and the iphone by displaying the same image on both phones at the same time and for whatever reason the n97 screen changed the hue of the image and it wasn't as bright even on the highest setting ;(.

What makes you think the iPhone's display was presenting a true image versus the N97? I've made this mistake before with PC monitors. Unless you have an image that has been viewed on a professionally calibrated monitor meant for media (imaging and video heads know what I mean, even if I can't think of the proper term right now), you have no reference for how the image is supposed to look.

I found the N97's screen to be far better than the iPhone, but I prefer a cooler color pallette. Its a preference. The iPhone is warmer, but it made reds too vivid, and not natural.

[JayBomb999]

@jandmdickerson

I have already pre-ordered it. :)

[jandmdickerson]

@jandmdickerson

I have already pre-ordered it. :)


Nice!! And since your a man of your word and don't need your stylus please send it to me. :D:D

Of course I will pay shipping. ;)

[Laughing Man]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in conveying my perspective as a new smart phone buyer. The ability to use "dosbox" isn't compelling to me. Nor is using the device wearing mittens or with fingernails. I think people only "prefer" using their nails because it's what they are used to having to do. Again, I am not in this demographic.

I think using a stylus is something long time smart phone users cling to because it's what they know. I get that. However, it's not what I know or want to know and whether you like it or not, this sentiment is growing.

Call me shallow, but being fashionable does matter somewhat to me. Frankly, I think in a world where the iPhone exists, using a stylus looks silly and old fashioned. An OS that can comfortably accommodate my finger is preferable to me. Maemo 5 appears to be able to do this 90% of time and that's good enough. It's just not ideal in my opinion.

There are plenty of other great things about this device that make me want it. I'm just saying the screen, or the 'ability' to use a stylus, fingernail, mitten, etc. isn't one of them.

I think the problem is where you are coming from that determines what is best for you.

Phone -> Smartphone trying to be a computer?

Or a computer trying to be a phone?

But indeed for what the mass market wants (a smartphone) the n900's choice of a resistive screen doesn't bode well for their regular uses. But for say our community that may run anything from what the default Maemo OS to OS like Debian, Ubuntu, Windows CE/95 =P it makes more sense to have it be resistive since not everyone is going rework every application ever created to be finger-friendly.

[JayBomb999]

Nice!! And since your a man of your word and don't need your stylus please send it to me. :D:D

Of course I will pay shipping. ;)

I also said that being fashionable is somewhat important to me. I can't very well have a giant hole in the side of my device can I? ;)

I didn't mean to say that I don't need a stylus, just that I don't want to need a stylus.

I'll think about it though. :)

[bbin]

Bad idea on Nokia's part. Couldn't they've sent texrat or someone??

As they mentioned in the show... They didn't get the device stright from Nokia. They propably got it from some tester...

[ysss]

After using Palm (Pilot, III, Visor, Vx, Treo 600, 650, 680), Sony (N70), Nokia IT (N800) and Windows Mobile (Toshiba G900 w/ 800x480!) with resistive screens.. I can't say that my overall experience with resistive screens were superior than the comfort and practicality that I get from using the capacitive screen on my iPhone (currently 3GS).

One handed usage is natural with the thumb on a capacitive screen, you don't need to bother with stowing\unlatching the stylus, and the performance is great. I don't get why capacitive screens are getting so much !@#! here.

PS: note that I don't handwrite or draw on my devices, so I've never missed the single superior feature that resistive screens have over capactiive.

[sevla]

What makes you think the iPhone's display was presenting a true image versus the N97? I've made this mistake before with PC monitors. Unless you have an image that has been viewed on a professionally calibrated monitor meant for media (imaging and video heads know what I mean, even if I can't think of the proper term right now), you have no reference for how the image is supposed to look.

I found the N97's screen to be far better than the iPhone, but I prefer a cooler color pallette. Its a preference. The iPhone is warmer, but it made reds too vivid, and not natural.

Your right. However I found the iPhone's image to be a closer representation to the image or at least it was more pleasurable to me. Your exactly right in the "cooling" effect. The n97 tends to have a blue hue which I don't really care for. In short I just found the glass screen to present an overall better image. The "vivid red" you referring to is probably more of a software issue then effects of the glass/plastic screens.

[sevla]

After using Palm (Pilot, III, Visor, Vx, Treo 600, 650, 680), Sony (N70), Nokia IT (N800) and Windows Mobile (Toshiba G900 w/ 800x480!) with resistive screens.. I can't say that my overall experience with resistive screens were superior than the comfort and practicality that I get from using the capacitive screen on my iPhone (currently 3GS).

One handed usage is natural with the thumb on a capacitive screen, you don't need to bother with stowing\unlatching the stylus, and the performance is great. I don't get why capacitive screens are getting so much !@#! here.

PS: note that I don't handwrite or draw on my devices, so I've never missed the single superior feature that resistive screens have over capactiive.

I think the handwriting debate with regards to resistive/capacitive screens is very very weak. You don't need a stylus to write in "difficult" languages such as chinese. A coworkwer of mine has the iPhone and has language support turned on in Chinese. He was able to use his finger and write his text messages with no problems and WITHOUT a stylus.

There simply are less and less reasons to use a resistive screen over capacitive. The only real TRUE advantage (notice I said advantage not preference such as "I like using my finger nail better") is that resistive screens can be used with gloves and even that issue with capacitive screens can be solved with hardware buttons.

[Laughing Man]

After using Palm (Pilot, III, Visor, Vx, Treo 600, 650, 680), Sony (N70), Nokia IT (N800) and Windows Mobile (Toshiba G900 w/ 800x480!) with resistive screens.. I can't say that my overall experience with resistive screens were superior than the comfort and practicality that I get from using the capacitive screen on my iPhone (currently 3GS).

One handed usage is natural with the thumb on a capacitive screen, you don't need to bother with stowing\unlatching the stylus, and the performance is great. I don't get why capacitive screens are getting so much !@#! here.

PS: note that I don't handwrite or draw on my devices, so I've never missed the single superior feature that resistive screens have over capactiive.

The problem is you are comparing the iPhone and its capacitative screen using software designed specifically for the iPhone. Of course the usability and performance would be great, it's like if you bought a Mac with OSX on it. Both the hardware and software side is controlled by Apple.

But say anyone could put any type of software on Apple without following guidelines and it was approved. Your experience with finger usability and the device is quickly going to be diminished. Suddenly you'll find that your finger is to big to hit certain prompts. Or other problems similar to that.

Now with Maemo we have all sorts of software. We have software from companies (Skype, etc..), we have software created for the platform, we have software ported over from Linux desktops that are optimized. We have software ported over from Linux desktops that are unoptimized. You can imagine that if we were stuck using a purely finger interface how quickly headaches would come.

Thus the solution, a resistive screen that allows for both finger usage, and when necessary precision from the stylus or fingernail.

It's as I pointed out earlier, it depends on where you are coming from. Smartphone to computer, or computer to phone. But yes the general market generally just wants a smartphone, not a computer.

[sachin007]

After using Palm (Pilot, III, Visor, Vx, Treo 600, 650, 680), Sony (N70), Nokia IT (N800) and Windows Mobile (Toshiba G900 w/ 800x480!) with resistive screens.. I can't say that my overall experience with resistive screens were superior than the comfort and practicality that I get from using the capacitive screen on my iPhone (currently 3GS).

One handed usage is natural with the thumb on a capacitive screen, you don't need to bother with stowing\unlatching the stylus, and the performance is great. I don't get why capacitive screens are getting so much !@#! here.

PS: note that I don't handwrite or draw on my devices, so I've never missed the single superior feature that resistive screens have over capactiive.


I think i read somewhere in this forum about capcitative not able to support higher resolutions. I dont know how much this is true but if it is true it is very easy to understand nokia's decision. Having a high resolution is a huge advantage especially for me when i regularly vnc into my desktop.

Even if that is false does anyone know of a smartphone with capcitative screen and atleast the same resolution of the n900 which has already been released?

[Laughing Man]

It's not true (I read the same thing before and have been corrected). They are capable of same resolution and all. The lack of capicitative touch screen phones that have a similar resolution is probably due more to price.

[christexaport]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in conveying my perspective as a new smart phone buyer. The ability to use "dosbox" isn't compelling to me. Nor is using the device wearing mittens or with fingernails. I think people only "prefer" using their nails because it's what they are used to having to do. Again, I am not in this demographic.
I think being a new smartphone buyer, you should take a second and listen. You SOUND like a new smartphone user, and I don't mean that as a slight. You just don't know what may be important to you later down the line yet. That's fine. But these guys are giving you some good food for thought. Just listen and research for yourself, because the features mentioned are really important once you use any smart device awhile.

For instance, what happens when you need to use your device in freezing weather and you need gloves? What if you're working in the shop and have an accident with a saw and sever your fingers? How can you use the phone? Maybe if you use a pen in your mouth to tap the screen like a finger... NOPE! Capacitive REQUIRES a finger. Not a nail, pencil, toothpick, car key, nothing! So dirty fingers mean dirtier screens. Is that what you want? Doubt it. And what about handwriting recognition? The guys using capacitive don't have good handwriting software, which is why they don't need a resistive screen. Nokia allows you to write with accuracy, at least on the N97. And what about when you sneeze and sling a huge line of snot across your screen? (happened to me, seriously. Gross, I know) Wipe the capacitive screen, and it actually activates stuff, but a light wipe on a resistive screen won't.

The required pressure is minimal, but its a better solution when done right, and Nokia has, from all accounts except the Engadget Show. Many reviewers had to ask if it were capacitive or resistive, because it wasn't obvious from performance. Its not because we're used to using fingernails, its just good to keep your screen from being always smudged with oils, and the ability to use anything beats being forced to use your finger only. Agility beats a pigeon hole anyday. One works with fingers and the other works with fingers or anything else you like. Which sounds better?



I think using a stylus is something long time smart phone users cling to because it's what they know. I get that.

Not so fast! We don't cling to it. Most like the finger solution. But the versatility and handwriting recognition is the main reason we like resistive. Why give up options for something that won't give many improvements, and will only exclude many people and the Asian markets from using it? Ask the Chinese how many like the iPhone. Its not feasible for most of them without resistive for handwriting recognition. The N900 is a far more powerful and capable solution, and nothing like the iPhone, Pre, or N97 for that matter. You have to look at the purpose of the device. The N900 is a desktop replacement device, not just a smartphone.

Call me shallow, but being fashionable does matter somewhat to me. Frankly, I think in a world where the iPhone exists, using a stylus looks silly and old fashioned.

Well, if your device must make a fashion statement, I think you should just look at photos and make a choice. But you should expect to run into roadblocks and issues that you compromised on in order to look cute. I can name a list, but if its not important, haven't you already made your choice? Or is the N900 as sexy to you as it is to me? Once you learn more about technology, the physical prowess of a device is just as fashionable as the cute devices.

[quote}There are plenty of other great things about this device that make me want it. I'm just saying the screen, or the 'ability' to use a stylus, fingernail, mitten, etc. isn't one of them.[/QUOTE]

Well that's fair. If a responsive screen is one of them, regardless what type it is, I don't think you have much to worry about. The display on the Engadget Show showing an unresponsive screen was contrived, and not normal. He had to TRY to not activate the screen, and watching the other 20 million N900 hands on videos should prove my point.

Good luck with your final choice.

[Laughing Man]

Oh I have seen the character recognition software for the iPhone (watched a few videos of it when it first came out). It is indeed a possible replacement for using a stylus (though I wouldn't argue that it's better).

As for the stylus issue, I believe there are styluses being developed that would work on capacitative screens. So in the future it does look like resistive will be dead or not the ideal choice for a device like this. But for now resistive and capacitative both have their place in this market sector. It's just more what you are going to do with the device that determines which screen to use.

Edit:

"And what about when you sneeze and sling a huge line of snot across your screen? (happened to me, seriously. Gross, I know) Wipe the capacitive screen, and it actually activates stuff, but a light wipe on a resistive screen won't."

Eww. But you could just lock the device then wipe it..I do that already when I want to clean the screen protector of the n800.

[ysss]

@Laughing Man: Yes and in that sense I also think Apple made a good call with their UI. They redesigned it for one hand use without stylus that makes 90% of my daily usecases just 'better' on it.. so, like you said, everything just fits together well.

@sachin: yes, actually I'm looking forward to trying out the N900's screen because I saw in one of the video that Peter@Maemo said he prefers to use the N900 WITHOUT A STYLUS and that he's been using it that way for some time.

So yeah, the best case for me would be if the screen can behave as sensitive and responsive as a capacitive screen for 90% of my daily usage scenario (one handed use) and if for some reason I need to manipulate very small objects on the screen with high precision, the I have the option to take out the stylus.

Not having multitouch is ok, AS LONG AS THE ALTERNATIVE CONTROLS ARE SANE. Looking at the nipple twirls for browser zoom, I haven't been that impressed. It's the same gesture used in HTC browsers... but, whatever, no big deal, as long as they implement double-tap-to-zoom-to-div-width properly.

I do have slight reservation about N900's high resolution screen. I've owned the Toshiba G900 which has a 3.2" 800x480 screen. Yes, it's the same resolution as NIT and N900, and even smaller.... and at 3.2" it's kind of pointless to have that much detail. You'd have to squint and look at small things closer, which lessens the comfort from usability point of view.

Higher resolution also means = high resource requirements. This means CPU, GPU and Drive space consumption (the graphic assets are bigger in general?).

[christexaport]

I think i read somewhere in this forum about capcitative not able to support higher resolutions. I dont know how much this is true but if it is true it is very easy to understand nokia's decision.

You DID read that, but not the way you're saying it. Capacitive screens are accurate and sensitive for detecting touch, but the touches aren't high resolution. For instance, the resistive screen can detect the differences in pixels selected much better. Capacitive screens MUST have larger elements, since it can only detect touches of a particular size. Don't forget, capacitive detects the PAD of a finger. Now that's a pretty large pointer. Resistive can detect a pinpoint touch, and elements can be much smaller. So the resolution applies to the touch detection, not the pixel density.

[christexaport]

@jandmdickerson

I have already pre-ordered it. :)

YEAH! Congratulations!! :eek::D

What won you over? I thought the sexy and slim iPhone would win from your style mentions. I'm shocked, but I bet you'll thank yourself if you can try the N900 beside and iPhone user. They'll almost always be jealous if the N95 was any indicator.

[JayBomb999]

YEAH! Congratulations!! :eek::D

What won you over? I thought the sexy and slim iPhone would win from your style mentions. I'm shocked, but I bet you'll thank yourself if you can try the N900 beside and iPhone user. They'll almost always be jealous if the N95 was any indicator.

I was won over almost a week ago. If you had actually taken the time to read my posts in this thread, you would know that I think this device is near perfection. My only point was that while Josh of Engadget's demo was atrocious, his halfhearted demonstration of the touch screen is telling.

I later went on to explain that I understand the purported benefits of resistive screens, and that I am simply not impressed by them. I also said that I am buying this device in SPITE of the screen. Lastly, I clearly stated that this is my opinion as a new smart phone user/buyer--not an economist. Do you really think that the possible use of hand-writing recognition for people in Indochina is at all compelling to me as an American consumer?

I wouldn't normally suggest someone scroll through a thread as long as this one before responding, but given your completely off the mark diatribe a few posts back, I feel it's only fair. You took almost everything I said out of context, exaggerated it and condescendingly assumed I'm either uniformed or stupid.

Edit: Oh yeah... YES I think the N900 is sexy as hell. I just don't think whipping out a stylus to maximize a flash video is.

[TedMilker]

Yea that's the long and short of it. I really wish the n900 had a capacitive screen. I'm sorry but the benefits far out weigh the cons (at least for me and lot of people). Plus capacitive screens tend to look better. I once did a test with my n97 and the iphone by displaying the same image on both phones at the same time and for whatever reason the n97 screen changed the hue of the image and it wasn't as bright even on the highest setting ;(.Capacitive or resistive touch has nothing to do with the LCD screen or display. They are both a layer over the top of the LCD glass.

[ysss]

For some of us, it's not about picking and getting the device that will make other smartphone users out there jealous. It's about getting the device that works best to get you through the day.

If you're more concerned about what a reviewer says about your device than what your experience with that device tells you, then you may need to recheck your priorities..

EDIT:

Ok, in a larger context, we're a community that cares about the success of N900 and Maemo, and we all understand how people on soapboxes (reviewers, etc) may be holding the megaphones that may reach into a larger audience that may contribute to N900's sales.

In that sense we are all concerned about how they are depicting the product and obviously we're all hoping for positive reviews to further our interests...

[sachin007]

@Laughing Man: Yes and in that sense I also think Apple made a good call with their UI. They redesigned it for one hand use without stylus that makes 90% of my daily usecases just 'better' on it.. so, like you said, everything just fits together well.

@sachin: yes, actually I'm looking forward to trying out the N900's screen because I saw in one of the video that Peter@Maemo said he prefers to use the N900 WITHOUT A STYLUS and that he's been using it that way for some time.

So yeah, the best case for me would be if the screen can behave as sensitive and responsive as a capacitive screen for 90% of my daily usage scenario (one handed use) and if for some reason I need to manipulate very small objects on the screen with high precision, the I have the option to take out the stylus.

Not having multitouch is ok, AS LONG AS THE ALTERNATIVE CONTROLS ARE SANE. Looking at the nipple twirls for browser zoom, I haven't been that impressed. It's the same gesture used in HTC browsers... but, whatever, no big deal, as long as they implement double-tap-to-zoom-to-div-width properly.

I do have slight reservation about N900's high resolution screen. I've owned the Toshiba G900 which has a 3.2" 800x480 screen. Yes, it's the same resolution as NIT and N900, and even smaller.... and at 3.2" it's kind of pointless to have that much detail. You'd have to squint and look at small things closer, which lessens the comfort from usability point of view.

Higher resolution also means = high resource requirements. This means CPU, GPU and Drive space consumption (the graphic assets are bigger in general?).

Ysss do you currently or in the past use any of the internet tablets?

[ysss]

Ysss do you currently or in the past use any of the internet tablets?

Yes, I've listed some of the devices with resistive touch screens that I've used in the past just a few posts ago and you should find N800 in that list.

It's actually in front of me now, because I took it out of hibernation a few days ago to verify some things mentioned in another thread here :)

[sevla]

Capacitive or resistive touch has nothing to do with the LCD screen or display. They are both a layer over the top of the LCD glass.

Ok well whatever the case the "layer" on top of the of the n97 gives the overall image a not so bright blueish tinge.

[sachin007]

For all the guys who have doubts about the sensitivity of the touch screen i think this video clearly shows how responsive it is.

http://www.gearlog.com/2009/09/hands-on_video_nokia_n900.php

[ysss]

@sevla: i don't know if it's the same layer that changes N97's screen color, but I've seen a video of guys scratching keys and metal objects to N97's screen (with no screen protectors) and it survived with no scratches whatsoever!

[sachin007]

Yes, I've listed some of the devices with resistive touch screens that I've used in the past just a few posts ago and you should find N800 in that list.

It's actually in front of me now, because I took it out of hibernation a few days ago to verify some things mentioned in another thread here :)

Oh ok. Since you do not have the n810 i think you could not appreciate the usefulness of the keypad considering that the whole screen is usable for content and not obscured by the virtual keyboard(similar to iphone). Believe me you will be blown away by the use of the keyboard. When i upgraded from the n800 to n810 i could appreciate the use of the full screen with content.

[dccupp]

Disclaimer: I don't have much experience with capacitive screens.

I don't know what the big deal about capacitive screens is. I've used the 5800 as my main phone for the past few months and I've only used the stylus when I first got it just to try it out. I haven't had any technical issues using the interface with my fingers. There are some design issues to S60 5th Edition and some design issues with the phone hardware design itself that make it a pain to use sometimes but that's a whole other topic.

Bottom line: I use the 5800 resistive screen with my finger, no stylus.

Another thought about capacitive... correct me if I'm mistaken but you can't use screen covers with capacitive screens. I use a screen cover with my 5800.

[Laughing Man]

Oh ok. Since you do not have the n810 i think you could not appreciate the usefulness of the keypad considering that the whole screen is usable for content and not obscured by the virtual keyboard(similar to iphone). Believe me you will be blown away by the use of the keyboard. When i upgraded from the n800 to n810 i could appreciate the use of the full screen with content.

True but for quick text entry I don't want to have to slide open the hardware keyboard. Enter text, and close it. (I've only had the n800). But I do understand the extreme pros of a hardware keyboard.

[JayBomb999]

Another thought about capacitive... correct me if I'm mistaken but you can't use screen covers with capacitive screens. I use a screen cover with my 5800.

Screen covers work just fine with capacitive screens. If not better.

[ysss]

@sachin: You'd notice that a good majority of the devices I mentioned have hardware keyboards. And those are just a partial list of ones with resistive touch screens :) That should be a (not so subtle) hint of my preference..

So, yes, I think I can appreciate the usefulness of a hardware keypad from first hand experience.

[sachin007]

True but for quick text entry I don't want to have to slide open the hardware keyboard. Enter text, and close it. (I've only had the n800). But I do understand the extreme pros of a hardware keyboard.

From my usage it is not so much as opening the keyboard and typing it and then closing it because that task is very easy and happens sub conciously. But the problem comes when your other hand is occupied and you need to just type a quick word... it is a pain in the ***. But i think a portrait osk will be almost immediately available at least for the browser. I am basing this assumption from one of the renders made by one of the canola members a while ago which looked similar to the OSK on the iphone. Since it is open source one needs to figure out how to include that in the browser which i am sure can be done easily?

[ysss]

@sachin: The htc G1 (android) has portrait mode without on-screen keyboard in their initial OS release.

[eiffel]

...i think this video clearly shows how responsive it is.
http://www.gearlog.com/2009/09/hands-on_video_nokia_n900.php
You mean like at 1:43 where he jabs the screen and nothing happens?

[sachin007]

You mean like at 1:43 where he jabs the screen and nothing happens?

Yeah make that an exception. But look how smooth it reacts when he swipes the panoramic desktop.

[UCOMM]

Another thought about capacitive... correct me if I'm mistaken but you can't use screen covers with capacitive screens. I use a screen cover with my 5800.


you can still use a cover with the cap screens

really though, all this talk about res vs cap is funny

they both have their places, cap probably in a more media centered device, resistive in a more professional device.


and seriously doubting the sensitivity of a resistive? my older car(urquattro) has a garmin gps unit(cheapy 300$) in it and it works fine with light pressure, it doesnt come with a stylus either.


edit:i think the infiniti has a built in resistive screen as well(never gave any trouble, so i never looked to see what it was), guess what i finger swipe it just fine as well, oh yea, no stylus as well

and as long as the ts works(as example in the infiniti) it doesnt matter what it is

[eiffel]

...does anyone know of a smartphone with capcitative screen and atleast the same resolution of the n900 which has already been released?
The closest I'm aware of is the Samsung i8910 Omnia HD, which has a 3.7 inch 640x360 capacitive screen.
http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_i8910_omnia_hd-2691.php

Amongst unreleased phones, the HTC Leo has a 4.3 inch 800x480 capacitive screen:
http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/09/18/htc.leo.capacitive.touch.evident/

Regards,
Roger

[Capt'n Corrupt]

Haha. This is hilarious. It's like arguing the value of a vehicle on the choice of securing the spare tire using square nuts over hexagonal nuts.

As long as the screen works well as a touch screen (as it seems to), it's not going to matter past the spec page. There are more important factors to base decisions on.

This thread is striken with fanboitis. Apparently one of the symptoms is pointing the finger....

}:^)~

[quipper8]

I can see capacitive being kind of difficult on 800x480 in 3.5 inches. I mean how exact could a capacitive be in that situation maybe on some web forms with check boxes or radio buttons? I guess you can zoom in or something.

[sachin007]

The closest I'm aware of is the Samsung i8910 Omnia HD, which has a 3.7 inch 640x360 capacitive screen.
http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_i8910_omnia_hd-2691.php

Amongst unreleased phones, the HTC Leo has a 4.3 inch 800x480 capacitive screen:
http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/09/18/htc.leo.capacitive.touch.evident/

Regards,
Roger

So at this point of time there is no capacitative touch screen device with greater than 640x360. May be that was one more reason not to use capacitative screen for now. Anyway nokia is seriously looking at multi-touch/capicitative screen for maemo 6....

[DaveP1]

Now that we've established that resistive is better because capacitive is too sensitive except for those times when capacitive is better because resistive is not sensitive enough. And forgetting for the moment the advantages of being able to use a stylus with gloves versus the benefits of being able to use your nose when your gloves are too thick to hold a stylus. I'd like to discuss another comment by Paul Miller, to wit:

"I don't think Nokia thinks we can comprehend their smartphone operating system and I think they might be right."

Is the Maemo 5 UI still too complicated for the average consumer who confuses Linux with Charlie Brown's friend?

[switchfiend]

If you watch that section again, I'm pretty sure that he's actually talking about the Symbian OS.

They are talking about how Nokia hasn't been pushing their smartphone platform here in the US.

That's actually a pretty common criticism of Symbian, that it's too complicated.

Aside from their complaints about the touchscreen (which to be honest, folks on this board should prepare to hear lots more once it launches, whether right or wrong), they didn't really have anything bad to say about Maemo.

Now that we've established that resistive is better because capacitive is too sensitive except for those times when capacitive is better because resistive is not sensitive enough. And forgetting for the moment the advantages of being able to use a stylus with gloves versus the benefits of being able to use your nose when your gloves are too thick to hold a stylus. I'd like to discuss another comment by Paul Miller, to wit:

"I don't think Nokia thinks we can comprehend their smartphone operating system and I think they might be right."

Is the Maemo 5 UI still too complicated for the average consumer who confuses Linux with Charlie Brown's friend?

[Rauha]

I think the handwriting debate with regards to resistive/capacitive screens is very very weak. You don't need a stylus to write in "difficult" languages such as chinese. A coworkwer of mine has the iPhone and has language support turned on in Chinese. He was able to use his finger and write his text messages with no problems and WITHOUT a stylus.


Yes it is possible to handwrite with fingers, but stylus is far better for the job. Just like it is possible to write on paper with finger paint but most of us would prefer to use a pen. Stylus/pen is just far more ergonomic.






As far as whole capacitive vs. resistive goes, I'm pretty much agnostic. Both technologies have their strenghts.

Capacitive:
-More sensitive
-Supports multi-touch

Resistive:
-Option to use stylus (not necessity)
-More precise
-No requirements for skin input (cold weather, moist fingers,
etc)
-Cheaper

Bottom line (for me personally): Resistive for single touch UI's like Maemo 5. I would prefer multitouch which would require capacitive, but that isn't a possibility in Maemo 5. (IMHO) Nokia made right choice to use resistive in Maemo 5/N900.

[eiffel]

So at this point of time there is no capacitative touch screen device with greater than 640x360
I also found the LG BL40 which is shipping and has an 800x345 4.0 inch capacitive screen.
http://www.letsgomobile.org/en/cellular/2018/lgbl40/

[range]

I think i read somewhere in this forum about capcitative not able to support higher resolutions. I dont know how much this is true but if it is true it is very easy to understand nokia's decision. Having a high resolution is a huge advantage especially for me when i regularly vnc into my desktop.


I think the resolution of the touchscreen is meant: How close can touched pixels be to each other and still be recognized as single pixels.

[sachin007]

I also found the LG BL40 which is shipping and has an 800x345 4.0 inch capacitive screen.
http://www.letsgomobile.org/en/cellular/2018/lgbl40/

Coming soon. Exp. release 2009, 3Q

[wazd]

I like the part where Joshua says "You know, when I just touch screen (he starts to swipe around and device responds immediately)... well, the camera is dead anyway, bla-bla-bla...". Fail.

[qwerty12]

FCUK THE RIAA, IpHONES, AND ENGADGET!

[Laughing Man]

Like I wrote earlier.. it is possible for capacitative touch screens to use a specialized stylus.

[Rauha]

Like I wrote earlier.. it is possible for capacitative touch screens to use a specialized stylus.
Expensive + plus at leat the ones I've seen have tips rougly the size of fingertips making using pretty much pointless.

[jandmdickerson]

You mean like at 1:43 where he jabs the screen and nothing happens?

Trust me dude, there has been many a time I have jabbed at my iphone and not got the response I was looking for or were i was poking a letter and got the wrong one. Much is based on the users skill. However, like I said you have to use it before you know if you like it.

[GeneralAntilles]

Like I wrote earlier.. it is possible for capacitative touch screens to use a specialized stylus.

Yes, but unfortunately capacitive displays don't have the precision to make stylus devices useful.

[f(x)]

I noticed that he wanted to attack the phone (Apple/Palm $Cash$/fan-guy). (Probably the only research he have done was that n900 got resistive touchscreen). He took it within his hands and start tapping it in a way to make sure that it looks useless and don't register. The funny part is,it did but to move from a desktop into anther he have to be keep holding it while moving his finger horizontally.

Over all for someone who'v got 4 mobiles I am sure he won't believe himself if he got it for free (The way he was starring at it :P)

[Dead1nside]

I thought the representation was a little unfair from Engadget, it did make the N900 look like an expensive paper weight: which clearly it isn't.

I've used a 5800 and the screen wasn't bad at all, so if this is any better than that I don't think it would be a disaster. From the videos of people using the device, and hand's on time that people have had with the device it seems positive.

[Laughing Man]

Trust me dude, there has been many a time I have jabbed at my iphone and not got the response I was looking for or were i was poking a letter and got the wrong one. Much is based on the users skill. However, like I said you have to use it before you know if you like it.

True. I was trying to type out my email address on my cousin's iPhone earlier today at dinner. He has Shazam to let him identify songs playing (I want Shazam on the n900!) and I wanted to send him to send it to me so I could look into it later. It took me a good few minutes to type out my first + last name @ gmail.com with the iPhone's keyboard in portrait mode.

I should've bashed it for being imprecise. =P

PS: If anyone's interested this was the song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8GU-aullq8

[ysss]

@Laughing Man: if you're not used to using the iphone's osk, it's easier to use the 2 handed hold & point method :D I think the main issue is that cap screens register the surface (and shape?) of the contact areas and in iPhone's case it determines the intended tap\click area as the (averaged) middle spot... and this may not be the most natural thing for us at first when trying to thumb type (different people have different areas of the thumb that comes in contact with the screen).

[qole]

PS: If anyone's interested this was the song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8GU-aullq8

Hm, catchy title! "This video is not available in your country due to copyright restrictions."

[Laughing Man]

@ysss

Yeah, I know, that's why I don't bash the iPhone capacitative touch screen for being imprecise (I was joking about it up there). With any given device there's some user learning that has to be done no matter how much usability testing that has been done.

@qole

*sigh* Copyright fail again. >.<

[eiffel]

Coming soon. Exp. release 2009, 3Q

Maybe that's the case in the US, but the BL40 is in stock and on sale at Carphone Warehouse in my city in the UK.

And they better hurry up where you are, because there's only about ten days of 3Q left!