N900 will not allow USB OTG! [Archive] - Page 2 - maemo.org

allnameswereout

09-22-2009, 10:07 AM

You know, I really don't have to justify my preference. It's not inherently "right" and you might even be able to define it as "wrong", but it's still my preference and that's what I'll base my purchasing decision on.

But, since you ask: I have a 16 GB card in my pocket computer, and a 32 GB flash drive in my pocket. Obviously, the flash drive can hold more than the pocket computer. Sometimes I want to access files on the flash drive. Do you seriously think I would choose to go to a desktop computer, transfer the files I need from the flash drive to the desktop, then from the desktop (DIRECTLY! -- as you put it) to the pocket computer?

Thanks, but I'll wait for a pocket computer that actually fits my needs, rather than adapting my work to a poorly designed (in terms of meeting my needs) pocket computer.If, instead of 1x 32 GB flash, you would not want 2x 16 GB microSD as alternative I question whether you value the other advantages the N900 has to offer, and it makes me wonder what device you're comparing to which currently does fulfill your needs.

allnameswereout

09-22-2009, 10:21 AM

http://cgi.ebay.ie/-USB-3G-HSDPA-Mobile-Broadband-Wireless-802.11g-Router_W0QQitemZ150368073541QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2 0090825?IMSfp=TL090825144001r210

http://www.simsim.lv/index.php?categoryID=2202

http://www.pixmania.com/fi/fi/286623/art/d-link/tulostinpalvelin-wifi-air.html

http://www.coolcomputing.com/article.php?sid=3159

Are these possible solutions or not? How to get n900 to understand these devices? Is there something more like to put in pocket solution available. My opinnion is that wifi is maybe the solution if hacking won't work.

And Amazon has it's own too: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001M8IK1K/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=Noh. I think this would suffice:
1) Linux (or *NIX) computer in small case. Low-power x86-32 or one of the RISC (PPC, ARM, ...).
2) Internal drive bay for 3"5 HDD.
3) One USB OTG port for CD/DVD burning or N900.
4) BlueTooth or WiFi for controlling the device over SSH, HTTPS. These interfaces also allow one to perform CD/DVD burning.
5) Then mounting NIT using SSHFS and then rsync or whatever.
6) Requires power adapter. Maybe add second USB EH port for powering up the NIT. Then you almost have a docking station.
7) The device would be a bit bigger than a standard 3"5 drive bay.

Yes, ofcourse it will cost money. However, I wonder, is this approx what USB OTG proponents would like to use?

thecursedfly

09-22-2009, 10:43 AM

USB 3G HSDPA Mobile Broadband Wireless 802.11g Router (http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120458861337)

D-LINK DP-G310 (http://www.dlink.co.uk/cs/Satellite?c=Product_C&childpagename=DLinkEurope-GB%2FDLProductCarousel&cid=1197319429608&packedargs=locale%3D1195806691854&pagename=DLinkEurope-GB%2FDLWrapper&p=1197318962342)

maybe these two could work, dunno..
the first one looks really like a good solution, also in case of devices which require a powered hub.
though, I need to find more info/hands-on reviews; do they work well with maemo? do they work with any device instead of only as printer servers (looks like the case of the second one)? can I attach a DVD drive to it via USB and stream its contents to the N900?

anyway, a cable/software hack for the N900 microUsb is still preferrable... ;)

edit: review (http://www.v3.co.uk/personal-computer-world/hardware/2228905/review-solwise-5g-wlan-mobile)
edit 2: our use case model seems to be covered (http://www.purpleslurple.net/ps.php?theurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.co.uk%2Fws%2Fe BayISAPI.dll%3FViewItem%26item%3D170376455912#purp 209)
edit 3: user manual (http://www.jeroenvermeire.com/digidimi/readers/Solwise%203G%20Router%20Mobile%20User%20Manual.pdf )

quingu

09-22-2009, 10:44 AM

Noh. I think this would suffice:
1) Linux (or *NIX) computer in small case. Low-power x86-32 or one of the RISC (PPC, ARM, ...).
2) Internal drive bay for 3"5 HDD.
3) One USB OTG port for CD/DVD burning or N900.
4) BlueTooth or WiFi for controlling the device over SSH, HTTPS. These interfaces also allow one to perform CD/DVD burning.
5) Then mounting NIT using SSHFS and then rsync or whatever.
6) Requires power adapter. Maybe add second USB EH port for powering up the NIT. Then you almost have a docking station.
7) The device would be a bit bigger than a standard 3"5 drive bay.

I think asus makes those... they're called Eee or something... perhaps someone can post a link.

:rolleyes:

allnameswereout

09-22-2009, 10:54 AM

I think asus makes those... they're called Eee or something... perhaps someone can post a link.Eh? Assuming it supports USB OTG since when does Eee come with 3"5 bay? It also comes with a LCD. Formfactor is not what I had in mind (compare to N800 + 3"5 or Soekris). And far too high horsepower for the purpose I mentioned. On a positive note it supposedly has a battery allowing the data to be accessable while travelling.

qole

09-22-2009, 12:08 PM

Too bad N900 won't probably play back 720p smoothly.

Um, it doesn't have a 720p screen? It is a high resolution screen for a mobile device, but still half a million pixels short of 720p.

I'm not living in the 720p world yet. I guess when I am, I'll be upset about having to transcode for mobile devices, too.

The N900 playback quality will depend how well we can use the DSP and other extensions - the OMAP34340 should be very capable of 720p if the extensions are fully utilized.

I'm going to try to find some 720 source material and see what it looks like on the somewhat-optimised VLC player...

vinc17

09-22-2009, 12:33 PM

You know, I really don't have to justify my preference. It's not inherently "right" and you might even be able to define it as "wrong", but it's still my preference and that's what I'll base my purchasing decision on.
But you can't blame Nokia for making choices that would satisfy most users. I'd say that most users will be happy with the N900 concerning file transfers with another computer (I'm talking about file transfers for use with another computer, not just storing data).

But, since you ask: I have a 16 GB card in my pocket computer, and a 32 GB flash drive in my pocket. Obviously, the flash drive can hold more than the pocket computer. Sometimes I want to access files on the flash drive. Do you seriously think I would choose to go to a desktop computer, transfer the files I need from the flash drive to the desktop, then from the desktop (DIRECTLY! -- as you put it) to the pocket computer?
You're changing the subject. Here you just want to store data. My question was just on the file transfers. I recall what you had said: "The way I expect my mobile computer to exchange files with my desktop and other computers is via flash drive.".

qole

09-22-2009, 12:42 PM

This is where Shepherd (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31524) will be useful! When you plug a USB device into your NIT, Shepherd will notice and can ask if you want to start the ad-hoc wifi network. Then, on the N900, when you connect to the adhoc network, Shepherd can ask if you want to mount the USB devices from the tablet on your N900, and open the file manager for you.

attila77

09-22-2009, 12:51 PM

Would you mind adding this to the Shepherd thread so I don't forget about it ? (surfing from the NIT right now) Thanks.

thecursedfly

09-22-2009, 12:57 PM

qole

09-22-2009, 01:09 PM

maybe for those wo have another NIT and care to carry them both around... ;/
anyway, it may be some kind of solution for somebody...

If you don't have an N8x0, you should go and get one. They're pretty cheap right now, and they do a lot of the stuff that the N900 can do. The N800 has two full size SD slots, and a mini USB connector (as opposed to the micro USB connector), not to mention it is probably cheaper on eBay, so it might be better to use as your WiFi USB Host.

dalonso

09-22-2009, 02:35 PM

For those of you needing OTG for reading pendrives and such, what about this:

http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=184658

?

Matan

09-22-2009, 02:41 PM

Physical problem with N900 SD slot.

What is the performance?

Will it work with > 32GB storage?

bocaJ

09-22-2009, 02:45 PM

For those of you needing OTG for reading pendrives and such, what about this:

http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=184658

?

IIRC, that device was brought up previously, the problem being that the micro-SD portion of the adapter wouldn't fit in the recessed microSD port under the back-panel.

I like the constructive ideas though! One person already found a solution to using serial ports via bluetooth. It seems like the problems we have remaining are:

USB Mass storage devices
Other USB peripherals

dalonso

09-22-2009, 03:15 PM

@bocaJ: Doesn't the N900 have a microSD port in one of the sides? From the specifications it says there are two microSD expansion slots, one internal upto 32Gb and another one external upto 16Gb. From the 3D model in http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/360/ the external slot doesn't seem to have problems for this device to connect.

@Matan: From the producer specifications page it seems 32Gb is the limit, as it is the limit for the SDHC host. Anyway I imagine the N900 external microSD slot would limit this to 16Gb.

pycage

09-22-2009, 03:27 PM

I think there's only one MicroSD slot. The 32GB are built-in. And 16 GB is the maximum currently available for MicroSD, so it's advertised as a slot for 16 GB.

techdork

09-22-2009, 03:56 PM

andree

09-22-2009, 04:23 PM

I truly hope that Nokia will fix whatever the "several HW bugs" exist and plan for a model that will support USB OTG. This device without USB support to me is simply a high performance phone, not a "high performance mobile computer" as advertised.

The question still remains .. would it be at all possible to provide USB peripheral support with some sort of software and hardware hack? I've yet to see this question definitively answered.

if you read pg 88 of this:
http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/litabsmultiplefilelist.tsp?literatureNumber=sprufd 4b

you'll find the TESTMODE register mentioned before.. unless nokia did something nasty to the hardware, this *could* make the usb host possible (maybe with some external usb bus powering workarounds)..

however if the hardware is crippled, don't hold your breath for the n900 to get 'fixed' during it's liftime by nokia.. you can only wait for n910 or similary... next year or later :)

Jack6428

09-22-2009, 04:30 PM

so you guys are telling me i can't plug in a keyboard via USB ?
Only via bluetooth?

andree

09-22-2009, 04:41 PM

nobody knows yet, except for nokia hardware devs - who probably won't tell anyway... :)

thecursedfly

09-22-2009, 05:09 PM

sorry for bringing up something allready posted but it's for visibility; isn't what's shown here a possible solution to the USB host problem?
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=331503#post331503

(only possible problem would be that this system requires electricity, but it covers the case of HDs and DVD players, where you need electricity anyway..)

plus the mentioned "testmode", to see if it exists and works in some way.

probably we'll have a more definitive answer in a couple of months...

BruceL

09-22-2009, 05:15 PM

if you read pg 88 of this:
http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/litabsmultiplefilelist.tsp?literatureNumber=sprufd 4b

you'll find the TESTMODE register mentioned before..

This looks hopeful. Who knows how to set a USB register like this?

The test modes are entered by writing to the TestMode register (offset address 0x40F).

The Force Host test mode enables the user to instruct the core to operate in Host mode, regardless of
whether it is actually connected to any peripheral i.e. the state of the CID input and the LINESTATE and
HOSTDISCON signals are ignored. (While in this mode, the state of the HOSTDISCON signal can be read
from bit 7 of the DevCtl register.)
This mode, which is selected by setting bit 7 within the Testmode register, allows implementation of the
USB TEST_FORCE_ENABLE (7.1.20). It can also be used for debugging PHY problems in hardware.
While the FORCE_HOST bit remains set, the core will enter Host mode when the Session bit is set and
remain in Host mode until the Session bit is cleared even if a connected device is disconnected during the
session. The operating speed while in this mode is determined for the setting of the FORCE_HS and
FORCE_FS bits of the Testmode register in Section 1.1.4.11.

NvyUs

09-22-2009, 05:17 PM

techdork

09-22-2009, 05:35 PM

i just want to say just b/c on nokia specs its says microSD supported upto 16GB it dont mean anything bigger wont work. i have older phones saying 4GB is limit but bigger ones work with it,
i think nokia just test and go by whats out at the time and whats being mass produced.

No offense, but I totally do not see what that has to do with the topic of this thread, other than an attempt at a thread hijack :s

gerbick

09-22-2009, 05:38 PM

Based on the sheer amount of workarounds described in hardware, some would nullify a warranty on the spot.

I think that a software method to get files between phones is actually ideal. I already use one on the iPhone, so doing it this way would mean less of a hardware purchase requirement on my end.

qole

09-22-2009, 06:02 PM

so you guys are telling me i can't plug in a keyboard via USB ?
Only via bluetooth?

No, you can't plug in a keyboard via bluetooth either. ;) :p

Mara

09-22-2009, 06:06 PM

This looks hopeful. Who knows how to set a USB register like this?

The test modes are entered by writing to the TestMode register (offset address 0x40F).

The Force Host test mode enables the user to instruct the core to operate in Host mode, regardless of
whether it is actually connected to any peripheral i.e. the state of the CID input and the LINESTATE and
HOSTDISCON signals are ignored. (While in this mode, the state of the HOSTDISCON signal can be read
from bit 7 of the DevCtl register.)
This mode, which is selected by setting bit 7 within the Testmode register, allows implementation of the
USB TEST_FORCE_ENABLE (7.1.20). It can also be used for debugging PHY problems in hardware.
While the FORCE_HOST bit remains set, the core will enter Host mode when the Session bit is set and
remain in Host mode until the Session bit is cleared even if a connected device is disconnected during the
session. The operating speed while in this mode is determined for the setting of the FORCE_HS and
FORCE_FS bits of the Testmode register in Section 1.1.4.11.

Take a look at page 167 where they talk about emulating the VBUS signal... this may be more "clean" method of trying to get the controller into host mode?

Also, when I read the document it is apparent that the OMAP USB pins are not designed to be connected directly to the USB port. It needs some tranceiver chip between. I'm not sure if there are any other limitations on that tranceiver chip that prevent the host mode from working? (I don't think so, but you never know...)

Frank Banul

09-22-2009, 06:31 PM

The USB transceiver is probably either the TWL4030 (http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbugencontent.tsp?DCMP=WTBU&HQS=ProductBulletin+OT+twl4030&contentId=4634&templateId=6123) or a close relative.

lma

09-22-2009, 06:55 PM

No, you can't plug in a keyboard via bluetooth either. ;) :p

Joking aside, it turns out that BT HID is not (http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Fremantle_Unsupported_Bluetooth_pr ofiles) officially supported so some hacking will be required to make it work - apart from the bare bluetooth connection there's also all the stuff the bluetooth keyboard control panel applet does in Diablo and previous versions.

GeneralAntilles

09-22-2009, 06:55 PM

Also, when I read the document it is apparent that the OMAP USB pins are not designed to be connected directly to the USB port. It needs some tranceiver chip between. I'm not sure if there are any other limitations on that tranceiver chip that prevent the host mode from working? (I don't think so, but you never know...)

The transceiver part number is in the kernel somewhere. I don't have it handy at the moment, but its sheets definitely mentioned OTG support.

Jack6428

09-22-2009, 07:10 PM

No, you can't plug in a keyboard via bluetooth either. ;) :p

man, this pisses me off...coz in czech we got the qwertz keyboard..and i would kill nokia for that...they switched the two navigation keys for those special symbols...i dont want that..have they asked me? no? haven't asked anyone...i want the phone, but i want to have Maemo in Czech...with an english layout...and the fact i cant connect any keyboard is just horrible... is there any way to contact Nokia HQ and rant about the qwertz layout real loud? i seriously don't want it, nor does anyone else in Europe...nokia fked this up..i want keys, not symbols

NvyUs

09-22-2009, 07:25 PM

No offense, but I totally do not see what that has to do with the topic of this thread, other than an attempt at a thread hijack :s
maybe you should try reading thread then,
i was just correcting something stated on previous pages go back and quote all them too and accuse them of same stuff .
btw dont say no offence then acuse me of hijacking when thats obviously offensive.

JayOnThaBeat

09-22-2009, 07:46 PM

btw dont say no offence then acuse me of hijacking when thats obviously offensive.

Everyone arguing on this thread is a bunch of idiots.......

no offense :D

GeraldKo

09-22-2009, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by qole:

No, you can't plug in a keyboard via bluetooth either.

man, this pisses me off...coz in czech we got the qwertz keyboard..and i would kill nokia for that...they switched the two navigation keys for those special symbols...i dont want that..have they asked me? no? haven't asked anyone...i want the phone, but i want to have Maemo in Czech...with an english layout...and the fact i cant connect any keyboard is just horrible... is there any way to contact Nokia HQ and rant about the qwertz layout real loud? i seriously don't want it, nor does anyone else in Europe...nokia fked this up..i want keys, not symbols

@Jack6428 Assuming you aren't joking, too, I can't let you go on being upset. Qole was joking, in his Canadian way, that you can't plug in a Bluetooth keyboard. You can, however, wirelessly connect a keyboard to the N900 via Bluetooth.

(I'll do what I can to avert yet another Finnish/Czech war.)

thecursedfly

09-22-2009, 09:39 PM

@Jack6428 Assuming you aren't joking, too, I can't let you go on being upset. Qole was joking, in his Canadian way, that you can't plug in a Bluetooth keyboard. You can, however, wirelessly connect a keyboard to the N900 via Bluetooth.

(I'll do what I can do avert yet another Finnish/Czech war.)

and I add that it shouldn't be too difficult to buy a N900 with the english layout (maybe online)... then you can always set the OS language to czech I guess... /OT

asys3

09-23-2009, 03:42 AM

@Jack6428 Assuming you aren't joking, too, I can't let you go on being upset. Qole was joking, in his Canadian way, that you can't plug in a Bluetooth keyboard. You can, however, wirelessly connect a keyboard to the N900 via Bluetooth.

I hope that you can connect any BT keyboard and mouse - that would be at least necessary to use the N900 as a desktop computer replacement - that would be a "mobiel computer" - though only in the sense of sth. like a network client because of the lack of the usb host.
The N810 doesn't allow you to connect to all bt mice and keyboards (the system manager bt tool was limited).
And the command line doesn't help furteher.

If you don't have an N8x0, you should go and get one. They're pretty cheap right now, and they do a lot of the stuff that the N900 can do. The N800 has two full size SD slots, and a mini USB connector (as opposed to the micro USB connector), not to mention it is probably cheaper on eBay, so it might be better to use as your WiFi USB Host.

Qole. The N800 isn't the solution for the lack of the usb host in the N900!

You could also take a N800 and use a 3G phone instead in some cases.

No - I want one device! Not again a second one for usb host.

And according Wifi-Adhoc. That covers only some usb usecases. And not all.
Not to talk about the time it takes to build up a adhoc network in comparison to plugging in a usb cable...

Sorry guys.

Hope that the production version tells us if the necessary id line of the usb port is wired internally but usb host not supported officially to follow the usb consortium specs.

In this way there would be place for a hack in software and a modified cable - so everyone could find a not supported but working solution on his own.

Hope for this.

asys3

Jack6428

09-23-2009, 09:07 AM

@Jack6428 Assuming you aren't joking, too, I can't let you go on being upset. Qole was joking, in his Canadian way, that you can't plug in a Bluetooth keyboard. You can, however, wirelessly connect a keyboard to the N900 via Bluetooth.

(I'll do what I can to avert yet another Finnish/Czech war.)

nope, im not joking..and i won't let it be...i want Nokia Czech to fix this and sell the phone with 4 keys... so if you can do anything to help, i will be glad...

about the BT keyboard...will nokia bother to make and sell a special one for the N900?

allnameswereout

09-23-2009, 09:55 AM

nope, im not joking..and i won't let it be...i want Nokia Czech to fix this and sell the phone with 4 keys... so if you can do anything to help, i will be glad...

about the BT keyboard...will nokia bother to make and sell a special one for the N900?You will need to perform a small hack to get BlueTooth HID profile working. Nokia sells Nokia Wireless Keyboard SU-8W for quite a while, and it works fine just like any other BlueTooth HID keyboard. You could buy your Nokia N900 elsewhere, for example in UK (GBP is low). Consider to contact Nokia Czech.

Jack6428

09-23-2009, 10:09 AM

You will need to perform a small hack to get BlueTooth HID profile working. Nokia sells Nokia Wireless Keyboard SU-8W for quite a while, and it works fine just like any other BlueTooth HID keyboard. You could buy your Nokia N900 elsewhere, for example in UK (GBP is low). Consider to contact Nokia Czech.

i could buy it in the UK, but then the OS wouldn't be localized in Czech and the keyboard wouldn't be czech aswell...i hope people understand what i am trying to accomplish..the fact in Czech the keyboard is QWERTZ and localised is ok, but they could have done it without sacrifcing two arrow keys aswell...i contacted Nokia Czech, but they told me (actually just an operator girl on the infoline) they can start to deal with this when the device starts selling here (October 20th). I don't want to wait a month without doing anything. I even started to complain on Nokia's facebook forum...

about the BT keyboard..will the hack be hard? that keyboard i know, its old, but good enough for me...

allnameswereout

09-23-2009, 10:19 AM

i could buy it in the UK, but then the OS wouldn't be localized in Czech and the keyboard wouldn't be czech aswell...i hope people understand what i am trying to accomplish..the fact in Czech the keyboard is QWERTZ and localised is ok, but they could have done it without sacrifcing two arrow keys aswell...i contacted Nokia Czech, but they told me (actually just an operator girl on the infoline) they can start to deal with this when the device starts selling here (October 20th). I don't want to wait a month without doing anything. I even started to complain on Nokia's facebook forum...

about the BT keyboard..will the hack be hard? that keyboard i know, its old, but good enough for me...Hack will be easy. See here (http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Unsupported_Bluetooth_profiles). The support is right there, its just not officially supported by Nokia, and you need to enable it yourself by editting a config file.

I think you will be able to change the device language to Czech either right out of the box or by downloading Czech language support. I surely hope I can change the device language from Dutch to English even though I buy the device in Netherlands. And in the past, that was possible. It is possible with my Nokia E71 too. Just need to download the software for it. So for that I wouldn't worry.

As for the Czech hardware keyboard, judging from the reply you got Nokia will value user feedback after the device is released. So you cannot influence the manufacturing of the Czech hardware keyboard for N900 right now.

I have SU-8W, it worked on N8x0 too. I quite like it because its foldable and portable.

Jack6428

09-23-2009, 10:52 AM

Hack will be easy. See here (http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Unsupported_Bluetooth_profiles). The support is right there, its just not officially supported by Nokia, and you need to enable it yourself by editting a config file.

I think you will be able to change the device language to Czech either right out of the box or by downloading Czech language support. I surely hope I can change the device language from Dutch to English even though I buy the device in Netherlands. And in the past, that was possible. It is possible with my Nokia E71 too. Just need to download the software for it. So for that I wouldn't worry.

As for the Czech hardware keyboard, judging from the reply you got Nokia will value user feedback after the device is released. So you cannot influence the manufacturing of the Czech hardware keyboard for N900 right now.

I have SU-8W, it worked on N8x0 too. I quite like it because its foldable and portable.

thanks for replying...atleast someone cares lol... about the keybaord, yup, that's the same reason i like it too. It's not big, but good enough and portable. If it worked with N8xx, then it should work with this aswell. I know there is a stand for the phone with the keyboard. I don't have to put the phone into that, right? Since it wouldn't fit in anyway in landscape...I'll have to check wheter Nokia in Czech still sell this thing..

about the other thing... well, i probably could change the language to Czech if i bought it from the UK (although i know that the localization of Maemo 5 to Czech is a last moment decision by Nokia Czech, so who knows? Maybe it will be Czech Republic exclusive?), but then i wouldn't have the czech keys, although i would have all 4 arrow keys...man, this is complicated and dumb...i wanted to get the phone day1, now i will be happy if i get it on Christamas (IF nokia changes the keys)

allnameswereout

09-23-2009, 11:23 AM

thecursedfly

09-23-2009, 12:56 PM

anyway, not to be annoying, but this is all OFF topic... ;)

Jack6428

09-23-2009, 01:01 PM

You do not have to use the SU-8W's stand. It is optional. Nokia N900 has its own stand too.

PS: See this thread (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31236) about hardware keyboards and localisation.

great, then im buying that bt keyboard..
now just to solve the hw keyboard and its fine..ive checked that thread, but sadly no czech layout picture..anyway, if i make a new rant thread, will nokia read it, just to let them know?

qole

09-23-2009, 02:16 PM

Qole. The N800 isn't the solution for the lack of the usb host in the N900!

You could also take a N800 and use a 3G phone instead in some cases.

No - I want one device! Not again a second one for usb host.

And according Wifi-Adhoc. That covers only some usb usecases. And not all.
Not to talk about the time it takes to build up a adhoc network in comparison to plugging in a usb cable...

Well, it certainly is a solution for storage (HDD, DVD, USB key) use cases. And you only have to set up your ad-hoc network once, and you just switch to that network on both devices when you want to copy files.

I only want to carry one device too. And, most of the time, with the N900, you will.

For those occasions when you think you might need to copy information from a colleague's USB key, you buy a Nintendo DS case and in it, you put your N800, SD-to-microSD adapter, USB OTG adapter, usb hub and cables, N900 video-out cable, and 4xAA battery pack.

(EDIT: might as well throw in a BT keyboard and mouse!)

You put this in your "manly bag" and use this equipment to get files off of the external storage device and onto your N900. And since you have it along, you can also use the big N800 screen to watch videos or read a book on the train to work.

--- taunting trash-talk follows - humour alert --

But I'm a hardcore geek. There are some of you out there, I know, who are only poser geeks, who still take their big, heavy laptops everywhere, and who want someone else to make everything easy for them, rather than figuring out a way to make things work on their own. I understand that my solution is probably too complicated and technical for you. I'm sorry that my solution doesn't involve Windows Vista or the iPhone.

But seriously, you need to stop pretending that you need USB host mode on a handheld device, ok? USB host mode on a handheld device is a hardcore geek thing, not something posers should be messing around with. You might get hurt.

hee hee hee! ;) :p

thecursedfly

09-23-2009, 02:32 PM

qole, don't take it as offensive please, but i don't really see the sense in your last post.. :p

the "take a N8*0 with you" is a solution (for some), but not the one most people in this thread is searching for I think. And I think it's not hard to guess why. ;P

and I don't find it a great idea to go around stereotyping people and "posers" :p

allnameswereout

09-23-2009, 02:40 PM

great, then im buying that bt keyboard..
now just to solve the hw keyboard and its fine..ive checked that thread, but sadly no czech layout picture..anyway, if i make a new rant thread, will nokia read it, just to let them know?The discussion is offtopic in this thread please use the thread I linked to. I think instead of rant be constructive :) various Nokians read the boards here. Maybe Brainstorm or filing a bug report on Bugzilla will catch their attention, especially if you're constructive.

mikec

09-23-2009, 03:05 PM

Seems people have gone awol on all the options to move data around. Lets see, why not just get rid of you usb thumb drive and send the data directly to where you got your thumb drive data from. Bluetooth, wifi, 3G, usb client .............or JWTYGH just wait till you get home.:rolleyes:

Mike C

qole

09-23-2009, 03:24 PM

the "take a N8*0 with you" is a solution (for some), but not the one most people in this thread is searching for I think. And I think it's not hard to guess why. ;P

No, I can't guess why. Tell me why.

and I don't find it a great idea to go around stereotyping people and "posers" :p

That was a joke. Seriously. :)

thecursedfly

09-23-2009, 03:41 PM

No, I can't guess why. Tell me why.

- because a part of those going to buy a N900 don't own a previous maemo device, and don't want to spend 200-300€ more on top of 600€
- because there's a difference between carrying a N900 and carry a N900 plus something even bigger and heavier
- especially because you often don't know when you'll need that feature and don't want to carry the N8*0 around always just in case...
- because for that price people have the right to expect that feature included (maybe not officially, but with a hardware that makes it available in some way, as a software hack or/and modified cable)
- because there wouldn't be a thread "N900 will not allow USB OTG!" with 30 pages of people searching for a solution if everybody could so simply get a N8*0 to carry around and solve the problem

didn't think it was hard to guess any of these reasons that just came up in my mind, looked like common sense; sorry
and sorry for not understanding the joke :o

attila77

09-23-2009, 03:43 PM

But seriously, you need to stop pretending that you need USB host mode, ok? USB host mode is a hardcore geek thing, not something posers should be messing around with. You might get hurt.

hee hee hee! ;) :p

Sooo, anyone without a USB dock (http://www.displaylink.com/shop/index.php?product=1) is a poser now ? :D

qole

09-23-2009, 03:46 PM

because a part of those going to buy a N900 don't own a previous maemo device...

Ok, so there are some of you out there who want USB host mode but don't have tablets at the moment.

That's puzzling to me!

If you don't currently have a tablet, what mobile device are you currently using that does have USB host mode? And what do you use it for?

...because for that price people has the right to expect that feature included...

I completely disagree with that statement.

Matan

09-23-2009, 03:58 PM

No, I can't guess why. Tell me why.

If I am already taking a tablet with it, then I will take with it a small cheap phone, not an iphone wannabe.

Ok, so there are some of you out there who want USB host mode but don't have tablets at the moment.

That's puzzling to me!

Probably those confused by Nokia decision to call their new phone a "computer",

allnameswereout

09-23-2009, 04:01 PM

- because a part of those going to buy a N900 don't own a previous maemo device, and don't want to spend 200-300€ more on top of 600€I guarantee you a N800 won't cost 200 EUR in december 2009. Especially not a second hand.

- especially because you often don't know when you'll need that feature and don't want to carry the N8*0 around always just in case...You better know, because else you're having the external HDD or external CD/DVD writer with you just because you may have to use it.

- because for that price people have the right to expect that feature included (maybe not officially, but with a hardware that makes it available in some way, as a software hack or/and modified cable)As qole already said USB OTG support is not something customers commonly request.

- because there wouldn't be a thread "N900 will not allow USB OTG!" with 30 pages of people searching for a solution if everybody could so simply get a N8*0 to carry around and solve the problemLots of noise, and many discussion, people trying to be helpful. Quantity of pages discussion says nothing about need for feature, nor about the possible solutions for the problem. Because your post I quote does not take the root of the problem into account, nor does it take into account the harsh reality. No amount of stamping on your feet is going to change this harsh reality.

Ok, so there are some of you out there who want USB host mode but don't have tablets at the moment.Maybe he sold his tablet like I did (well, OK, traded for SCSI controller) :o

If you don't currently have a tablet, what mobile device are you currently using that does have USB host mode? And what do you use it for?I think if he had one (which is portable) he wouldn't need it on N900.

thecursedfly

09-23-2009, 04:04 PM

Ok, so there are some of you out there who want USB host mode but don't have tablets at the moment.

That's puzzling to me!

If you don't currently have a tablet, what mobile device are you currently using that does have USB host mode? And what do you use it for?

I have a laptop and a Nokia 6630. To have a N900 with that feature could make me leave these both home. I'm a student at university, and allready posted in the past pages what I would use it for.
If I didn't have such a great unified device so far doesn't mean I cannot look forward to own finally one.. ;)

I completely disagree with that statement.

i did not say "pretend"; i said "have the right to expect", meaning that I can have the right to look for a device with that possibility, if I think the money I would pay is enough for that.

You better know, because else you're having the external HDD or external CD/DVD writer with you just because you may have to use it.

as if those were the only use cases we discussed about so far...

As qole already said USB OTG support is not something customers commonly request.

there are only 30 pages about it in this thread.. and maybe people didn't request it because it was believed to be there... (unofficial, but as long as it works, people don't have a reason to complain)

allnameswereout

09-23-2009, 04:05 PM

If I am already taking a tablet with it, then I will take with it a small cheap phoneSure, if you wish to compare the soft- and hardware capabilities of N8x0 versus N900...

allnameswereout

09-23-2009, 04:06 PM

i did not say "pretend"; i said "have the right to expect", meaning that I can have the right to look for a device with that possibility, if I think the money I would pay is enough for that.Sure, you have the right to pray for a Cray falling down from heaven too...

Mara

09-23-2009, 04:27 PM

Personally I don't care much if the N900 does not have the USB OTG. In the past I did experiment with it when using N800. (You may remember the scripts and application entries I created to switch between the host and OTG modes?) Basically, it was just a one time interest and I rarely used it since then. (And the use was just experimenting... not that it was anything really useful.) When I changed to N810 I didn't even bother purchasing an adapter to make this work. I have had the N810 now about year and a half and I do not remember a single case where I was thinking "dang... I wish I had that adapter now..."

Not to say that for some this is a very important feature. But for 99% (?) of the folks it is not.

Also, you should not forget that the USB-OTG is not the same as full blown USB port that you see on PC's. OTG officially support 100mA current for the VBUS, where normal USB supports 500mA. Lots of devices need more than 100mA. In other words, many devices will not work with OTG port. (Like many memory card readers do not...) In that case you'd need external powered USB hub.

In my opinion the USB-OTG is more or less a niche. If it was supported and advertised feature on N900 box, guess how many unsatisfied customers there would be who say "my device doesn't work!", while they do not understand the difference between regular USB and USB-OTG?

thecursedfly

09-23-2009, 05:40 PM

I understand and agree about the facts that many won't need it, and that if officially supported it would bring who knows how many complaints; thx also for the numbers. (I didn't know it was you who created the host mode script, nice work! ^^)

Personally I can't say it's something vital which I'll surely use everyday; it's a feature more that I knew previous models have, which I find cool and/because I imagine it can be very useful in many situations. Not to have that possibility lowers a bit the value for money I was earlier giving to the device, which made me post in search for a solution in this thread.
That doesn't mean I don't find it an exceptional device anymore; I could still find it interesting enough to get it.
But if it only had... ;)

Lets discuss back in search for a possible solution please... or wait for the device/some news... :p

Unless somebody has a prototype of the N900 and wants to share info or try dangerous (?) testmode scripts, both of which I don't really see happen, we can only wait for the N900 to be on the market.
Meanwhile, somebody can always have alternative ideas..

qole

09-23-2009, 06:03 PM

... try dangerous (?) testmode scripts...

Sorry, where are these testmode scripts?

thecursedfly

09-23-2009, 06:19 PM

Sorry, where are these testmode scripts?

I guess they still have to be coded by somebody capable of doing it.. (not pushing anybody! but maybe there's somebody capable and interested in doing it)

bocaJ

09-23-2009, 07:03 PM

Anybody have experience puting together a bounty for this sort of thing? I'd chip in $20 to anyone who would develop a patch that gave the N900 full host mode or at least OTG capabilities without a hardware mod (aside from a special cable, perhaps).

BruceL

09-23-2009, 07:05 PM

Take a look at page 167 where they talk about emulating the VBUS signal... this may be more "clean" method of trying to get the controller into host mode?

Also, when I read the document it is apparent that the OMAP USB pins are not designed to be connected directly to the USB port. It needs some tranceiver chip between. I'm not sure if there are any other limitations on that tranceiver chip that prevent the host mode from working? (I don't think so, but you never know...)

So use an emulated VBUS to tell the chip to go into TESTMODE-Force_host?

I have only short bursts of time to work on things like this. Can someone read page 167-169 and figure out what this is saying and how to send a message on an emulated VBUS?

allnameswereout

09-24-2009, 09:11 AM

Mara

09-24-2009, 10:12 AM

Nobody interested in helping BruceL? The document is http://focus.ti.com/lit/ug/sprufd4b/sprufd4b.pdf

With USB OTG on microUSB the microUSB-B is always the EH, and the microUSB-A the OTG. The Nokia N900 has a microUSB-B connector; not microUSB-AB connector. Because of this it can only function as EH; not OTG. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go#OTG_Micro_Plugs and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus#Micro-AB_Socket_OTG (the PDF linked to earlier mentions this as well). So you would either need to hack USB on both devices, or get a microUSB-AB plug on the Nokia N900. Or do you think grounding that one pin would work? Even so, you'd then have a microUSB-B to microUSB-B link.

I read a bit of those pages, and I don't really know how to "translate" it to simple commands. It seems the USB operation status is set by setting bits in a certain register, and it should do the trick. That register is also readable which should help on debugging/troubleshooting.

Also, the presence of Vbus normally tells if the device should be Host or Peripheral. But, this signal is not a direct input to USB controller. Tranceiver chip is the one to detect it which should output its status to the OMAP. After that it is purely a SW that does the rest. This is actually good news since it tells that there is no "hard wired" control to keep the USB controller in Peripheral mode. Just writing the correct bits to this USB register should make it into Host mode. :)

Sorry, I don't think I can figure out how to do this exactly, but for qwerty12 this should be a piece of cake... ;)

nilchak

09-24-2009, 10:13 AM

Ok, so there are some of you out there who want USB host mode but don't have tablets at the moment.

That's puzzling to me!

If you don't currently have a tablet, what mobile device are you currently using that does have USB host mode? And what do you use it for?

I completely disagree with that statement.

Just assuming that I can pose for a moment that I don't have a Nokia Tablet (gave it to my wife :D), I have a Sharp Zaurus - which has USB Host mode.

And I want USB Host mode on the new device that I crave for - the N900.

And I use USB host mode for when I go on trips and take a lot of pictures and videos (large videos). WhenI get backt o the hotel room, I phug in my Camera and the portable HDD to the Zaurus - and copy all the media to the HDD as a backup and clean up the Camera media for the next day. In fact I do this for the whole group I go with - I am the chief Backup man.

Seriously now how do I do this with the N900 ?

timsamoff

09-24-2009, 12:18 PM

Seriously now how do I do this with the N900 ?
I've been trying to follow this thread, but I often scratch my head at some of the use-cases that I'm hearing. In your case, removable media (SD, MMC, whatever) is so cheap now, why not take several with you and use the media itself as backup (i.e., for a 7-day trip, take 7 cards...)? And, if your camera uses microSD, why not just take the card from the camera and put it into the N900 to do the same thing? (If your camera uses regular SD, just slip a microSD card into an adapter.)

Yes, I know that there are valid reasons for USB Host mode, but in most cases, it just sounds like people want a way to (a) backup files, or (b) transfer/sync files. This can all be done via wifi, bluetooth, or USB (connected to a computer).

So... Maybe I'm missing something huge, but I just don't get the importance (for most normal users).

Tim

zehjotkah

09-24-2009, 12:38 PM

we can see a program called "usb control" on the n900 which is used by eldar:
watch the video. on 7:03 you can see it.
http://www.mobile-review.com/review/nokia-maemo5.shtml

qole

09-24-2009, 12:39 PM

nilchak:

Sounds like your Zaurus is doing a good job there. It is nice and small, so it probably fits nicely into your luggage, and it is sturdy, so it will probably keep doing a good job into the future.

The tablets are also small and sturdy, and for almost all of the use cases listed here, I would recommend using a tablet (or Zaurus) to do those jobs. You don't need a fast processor or telephony capabilities to connect to Cisco networking gear, or to download files from a USB key. You don't need a laptop either.

Matan

09-24-2009, 12:50 PM

Did Nilchak say he only uses the zaurus for media backup and connecting to Cisco routers?
Obviously, in addition to the USB use cases described in this thread, the hand held computer is also used for email/web/office/octave/ebooks/whatever. That is why people are looking to replace zaurus/n810 with newer, more powerful devices, and are disappointed by Nokia not releasing one.

allnameswereout

09-24-2009, 12:59 PM

we can see a program called "usb control" on the n900 which is used by eldar:
watch the video. on 7:03 you can see it.
http://www.mobile-review.com/review/nokia-maemo5.shtmlThat is this application (http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/usbcontrol/). Just because it is available in Extras or installed on a N900 does not mean it works properly.

attila77

09-24-2009, 01:19 PM

Apropo Zaurus... in case you've got some Japanese connections, the netwalker (http://www.techfresh.net/sharp-netwalker-mid/) is starting to sell tomorrow. A bit pocket bursting sized, but otherwise not too shabby specs.

qole

09-24-2009, 01:25 PM

Matan: I understand why people are disappointed. However, all I'm saying is that the N900 is definitely a newer, more powerful device that will replace the tablets and Zaurus for many things. Just not USB connectivity. And for those not-so-common occasions when you need USB connectivity, your tablet or Zaurus is a lot smaller than a laptop.

EDIT: That netwalker looks really great too.

GeneralAntilles

09-24-2009, 01:25 PM

allnameswereout

09-24-2009, 01:40 PM

Sharp has recently unveiled their upcoming Mobile Internet Device ‘NetWalker’ for the Japanese market. Powered by a 800MHz Freescale i.MX515 processor, this new MID offers a 5-inch touchscreen display with 1024 x 600 resolution, a full QWERTY keyboard layout, a 512MB RAM, a 4GB of storage, a microSDHC card slot, WiFi, two USB 2.0 ports, a miniUSB 2.0 port, 10 hours of battery life and runs on Ubuntu Linux 9.04 OS. The Sharp NetWalker MID is scheduled to be released in Japan in September 25 for an estimated price of $480. [Product Page via GadgetFolder]Maybe an alternative for Pandora. The keyboard is QWERTY, unlike Zaurus which also had Kanji characters. If it is for the Japanese market I find that rather strange. Plus, 2 USB ports and 1 miniUSB port is a lot. The disadvantage is it has only 4 GB storage. BlueTooth is not mentioned either.

Addendum: her size and weight are...

161×109x20-25 mm and weight is about 410g

(Quoted from Gadgetwalker.)

RobbH

09-24-2009, 02:16 PM

So... Maybe I'm missing something huge, but I just don't get the importance (for most normal users).

You may be correct about this. It's entirely possible that those of us who are objecting to the lack of usb host are reacting irrationally. Maybe if I carefully considered all the possible uses, I would come to the conclusion that it won't be as crucial as I think.

But, we aren't entirely concerned with rational reactions here, are we? When my opinion of the N900 was, "Wow, I want that!" that was (at least in part) an emotional response to a set of stimuli that bypass rational thought. And now that I'm thinking "Close, but not quite my dream machine," it works the same way.

But the change in my opinion is not a response to the usb problem alone. It is something that has built up over time. My first thought on seeing images of the N900 was, "The keyboard isn't as good as my N810's. I don't like that, but I think the N900's benefits could outweigh this disadvantage."

Later on, I thought, "The display is smaller than the N810's. That's a disadvantage, but there are still some things I really like about the N900."

And this time, I'm thinking, "So, it doesn't support usb host mode, either. Maybe I could get by without it, but combined with the other negatives, I'm just not interested in the N900 now."

The effect of the various negatives is cumulative, and it just happened that, because of the order in which I encountered them, it was the usb limitation that tipped me over from positive to negative.

And none of these negatives (as I perceive them) mean that the N900 is worthless, or that Nokia shouldn't sell it, or that others shouldn't buy it. Taken together, they do mean that it doesn't suit me and I do not intend to buy it now. That's all, and I don't expect Nokia to be distraught over my decision.

attila77

09-24-2009, 02:30 PM

Let's not get carried away, this makes the Pandora look smallish and the N900 minuscule, it's even a bit larger than the UMID M1 (although probably runs circles around the M1 for 10 hours :) )

http://www.sizeasy.com/page/size_comparison/25665-Rover-vs-Pandora-vs-Sharp-Netwalker

timsamoff

09-24-2009, 04:29 PM

"The keyboard isn't as good as my N810's...."
You will really be pleasantly surprised that the N900's keyboard is easier to type on than the N810's. I promise.

"The display is smaller than the N810's....
Not only will you be pleasantly surprised how unimportant the screen size is, I'll be you are blown away. It is that good.

Don't count it out until it's in your hands. ;)

Tim

allnameswereout

09-26-2009, 11:15 AM

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/LT-Infotech-TI-OMAP3530-Reference-Platform/

Its a reference platform though.

Processor -- TI OMAP3530 @ 600MHz
Memory -- 128MB DDR II
Flash -- 256MB NAND flash
Flash expansion -- Micro-SD slot
Storage -- 1.8-inch CE-ATA HDD
Display -- 4.3-inch, QVGA (480 x 272) TFT LCD touchscreen
USB -- USB 2.0 Host and OTG support
Wireless connectivity:
WiFi
Bluetooth
GPS
DVB-H
FM tuner
Other features -- VGA camera; 3x3 matrix keyboard
Audio -- Speaker, Mic, headset
Power -- supports 3.7V, 1AH Li-Ion battery
Operating system -- Linux, Android 1.1, and WinCE 6.0

nilchak

09-26-2009, 11:39 AM

I've been trying to follow this thread, but I often scratch my head at some of the use-cases that I'm hearing. In your case, removable media (SD, MMC, whatever) is so cheap now, why not take several with you and use the media itself as backup (i.e., for a 7-day trip, take 7 cards...)? And, if your camera uses microSD, why not just take the card from the camera and put it into the N900 to do the same thing? (If your camera uses regular SD, just slip a microSD card into an adapter.)

Yes, I know that there are valid reasons for USB Host mode, but in most cases, it just sounds like people want a way to (a) backup files, or (b) transfer/sync files. This can all be done via wifi, bluetooth, or USB (connected to a computer).

So... Maybe I'm missing something huge, but I just don't get the importance (for most normal users).

Tim
Tim, I appreciate your suggestions, but unless you have tried it its difficult to comrehent the inconvenience of using multiple SD cards (or any cards) to backup your media.

My use case is a real use case and I did try the SD card method initially on a smaller trip. Its too much of a hassle. I know - hassle <> impossible - but for a real use case when you are travelling and have just the nights at the hotel to backupand clean up your media, the hassle part becomes a big factor. Not this is not some armchair debating I am getting into - its from my practical experience I am speaking about my use case.

And dont even mention backing up video (large videos at 30 FPS from your regular camera (Canon G10) via bluetooth. Now THAT is armchair discussions of technology - not real use case scenarios based on realistic factors. And if I had a computer with me while travelling, we wouldn't even be discussing USB host mode.

Lets just realise deficiencies where there are real deficiencies and not try to pooh-pooh it away. Not that lack of USB mode takes away all positives from the N900, but its simple fact its not there and for peope looking for it, its a missing point. That's all. Not every device is going to fulfill every use case, but that doesn't mean the use case is invalid or not important for some.

Like Qole said, it also does not have a color fax on it. :)

vvaz

09-26-2009, 11:52 AM

And none of these negatives (as I perceive them) mean that the N900 is worthless, or that Nokia shouldn't sell it, or that others shouldn't buy it. Taken together, they do mean that it doesn't suit me and I do not intend to buy it now. That's all, and I don't expect Nokia to be distraught over my decision.

Generally I agree with your post (hence "Thanks") but completely disagree with last sentence: I hope Nokia will be distraught enough with my (and few other people) decision to work on this features (USB host/OTG, proper BT profiles support, rotation in my case) and include them in next generation.

Without voicing of my (our?) displeasure it is completely possible Nokia will decide that those features are unimportant and there will be other, more important things to work on.

allnameswereout

09-26-2009, 12:22 PM

And dont even mention backing up video (large videos at 30 FPS from your regular camera (Canon G10) via bluetooth. Now THAT is armchair discussions of technology - not real use case scenarios based on realistic factors. And if I had a computer with me while travelling, we wouldn't even be discussing USB host mode.Did you consider Eye-Fi with which you can use SDIO to use WLAN (works even with MIFI (and Joikuspot) uploading to web right away).

I don't get why people are OK with having 1) a portable HDD 2) USB powered hub 3) USB cable 4) adapter for USB powered hub whereas something like a netbook (which does not require power for some while hence more portable) is the work by the devil. Makes no sense to me.

No offense though. Just trying to think of solution...

attila77

09-26-2009, 06:53 PM

I actually tried eye-fi for a short while, it's ok for for quick snapping (aside from a few quirks), but...

4GB max size
Slow. Really, you don't want to be transferring several gigs with it
150$+tax/duty (can't use the cheaper ones as they don't do RAW or Ad Hoc mode)

I'm ok with the host setup (actually mine is a bit simpler as I don't use a HUB but a powered drive) because it was 3x cheaper than the cheapest netbook at the time. As easy as that, no religious hatred towards netbooks (though if I'm lugging a netbook with be, I might not really need a Maemo device for the task...). Also, for some reason transfers where the N810 is the host are a lot faster than when it's connected as mass storage, but that might just be me, and with the extra grunt of a cortex might not be an issue an all.

JayB059

09-26-2009, 07:19 PM

Hey guys,

I am a fairly new member here and I don't think I've actually posted here before, but I often read a lot.

I have been using the N810 for a few months now and it is quite perfect for the things I use it for. I discovered the N810 late in the game, so fortunately, there were already nice apps and scripts developed by others to accomplish the things I needed.

I have developed a hand held SIGINT system (I am a government contractor) that uses the N810 as the user interface to the system. The main N810 features/apps I make use of are Jalimo for the Java GUI and the ability to connect the N810 to the tuner/signal processing unit of the system via USB used as gadget Ethernet (micro A on the N810 side, mini B on the other end). Then, the back end of the GUI just sends and receives TCP/IP to and from the other device who has some C programs listening on the appropriate ports. This setup only works if the the N810 is the host device so I can set the usb0 IP address accordingly, which can't be set if I were using a USB mico B cable.

So, I was hoping that the N900 would also "support" USB OTG the same way the N810 does so my company can continue to make this hand held system. I understand that most consumers would not have a need for USB OTG, but this is a case where it was needed and there was no other option with this set of hardware. I have no problem continuing to use the N810, but I don't think they are making them anymore. It was rather difficult to acquire the sqrt(225) we recently purchased.

If I can't use the N900 the same way I have been using the N810, I would need a device that supports the use of Java and USB OTG in a similar form factor/design to the N810 that has a touch screen and doesn't have a clam shell/laptop design...any ideas?

Where exactly does it say that the N900 will not have or cannot support (due to hardware) USB OTG?

Thanks much :-)

~ Jay

Thesandlord

09-26-2009, 07:29 PM

@JayB059

welcome! From what I have read, there are three camps:

1) USB host is impossible on the n900
2) USB host might be possible via software/register modification, but the hardware won't supply enough power or work correctly.
3)USB host might be possible via software/register modification, and it will work like the n810.

Best case is the last one, the second case will probably need a power injector or something. The first case means no-go. No one really knows until it ships and the hackers here start working on it.

neopwn

09-26-2009, 09:01 PM

@JayB059

2) USB host might be possible via software/register modification, but the hardware won't supply enough power or work correctly.

This will be the case, unless Nokia has gone out of their way to prevent it by using an external usb transceiver which only supports client mode.

Mara

09-26-2009, 09:18 PM

This will be the case, unless Nokia has gone out of their way to prevent it by using an external usb transceiver which only supports client mode.

My guess is the same, except that there likely is no power at all to supply the VBUS. (SImilar to the 770, that supported host mode but you had to do your own power injection.)

neopwn

09-26-2009, 10:29 PM

My guess is the same, except that there likely is no power at all to supply the VBUS. (SImilar to the 770, that supported host mode but you had to do your own power injection.)

Correct, power injection I'm assuming will be a must.

Ratva

09-27-2009, 05:07 AM

quingu

09-27-2009, 05:29 AM

I visited yesterday in Nokia Store Helsinki, Finland. I checked the application manager and there was USB control available to install. I don't what that means, but I think it can give us some hope. There was no USB devices available so I didn't test it.

it means, well, nothing. usb control is for n8x0 devices and has no effect on the n900. Not even on the 770.

andree

09-27-2009, 05:30 AM

I visited yesterday in Nokia Store Helsinki, Finland. I checked the application manager and there was USB control available to install. I don't what that means, but I think it can give us some hope. There was no USB devices available so I didn't test it.

It's a regular package in the extras-devel repository

http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/u/usbcontrol/ ... :)

all it does is

echo host > /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/mode

...and the like.. unless such 'file' also exists on n900, and works the same way, the usbcontrol wouldn't be much of an use :)

debernardis

09-27-2009, 05:35 AM

I'm tempted to get a Mobidapter and use it on my E51 (which is going to be the companion of my future n900, since I have separate sim cards for voice and data). Though, it's quite expensive. And, no used ones on ebay.

EDIT you can get a Mobidapter for about 20 EUR less than Expansys on http://www.roalan.com. Mine is going to cost 40 EUR including VAT and airline shipping.

tto

09-28-2009, 04:57 AM

Hi!

First post for me!

According to Michal Jerz, who have been testing the device (n900) for a couple of weeks it will be possible to use USB host.

Questions to Michal Jerz:
Is it true it has the usb host feature ?
if yes did you try to read some usb memory key with it ?

Answer:
It is not enabled by default, but it's quite easy to enable it. Google for "USB host N810". You can do it the very same way on the N900.

good start of a new week?

debernardis

09-28-2009, 05:34 AM

Unfortunately, that's not so easy my friend. Read the first post of this thread.

Maybe Michal was generalizing to the n900 what was already known for the n8X0 - but there seem to be some hardware differences which don't allow an easy turning to otg mode.

frals

09-28-2009, 05:46 AM

http://my-symbian.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=368257#368257

The thread I assume tto is refering to. Last post atm (the one link leads to):

Guys,

I'm sorry, I haven't read about it on Maemo.org, and I haven't tested it on the N900 yet. I was using USB host successfully on N800/N810 and that's why I assumed it would be the same on the N900....

But the Maemo.org folks surely are in the know and they can't be wrong... Well, what a pity... it was a very useful feature...

tto

09-28-2009, 06:26 AM

That’s typical, to good to be true.

Mandor

09-28-2009, 08:49 AM

I do have a question and I apologize in advance for the very basic technical terms used in this post.

The TI OMAP3430 used in the N900 is a System on a Chip (SoC), that means everything comes together and you have to live with it, right ? The OMAP3430 does support (http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?templateId=6123&navigationId=12643&contentId=14649) High Speed USB 2.0 On-The-Go.

How can Nokia modify the OMAP3430 to take that feature out of the N900 ? Is it something easy to do ? I mean like not plugging the "thing" that support USB On-The-Go.

Frank Banul

09-28-2009, 10:34 AM

USB OTG consists of 5 signals in the connector, 2 power, 2 data and one ID to indicate host or device. It would be as simple as removing this ID signal and leaving the other 4 signals and then hard coding the USB transceiver to be device only. So the OMAP3430 supports OTG, it's just never being told to go into host mode.

How can Nokia modify the OMAP3430 to take that feature out of the N900 ? Is it something easy to do ? I mean like not plugging the "thing" that support USB On-The-Go.

Frank

qole

09-28-2009, 12:41 PM

Frank: What is "hard coding" the USB transceiver to be device only? Is that user-accessible software (even the kernel is user-accessible), or is it "hard wiring," either with physical wires or firmware that can't be reached by the user?

Frank Banul

09-28-2009, 12:50 PM

It could be either. The signal could be physically tied high to indicate a device. I would be inclined to do it via software myself to give the flexibility to change later without changing the hardware.

I have to admit that I've only forced host mode via software, so I'm not entirely sure that device mode can be forced via software but I think it's a safe assumption.

Frank: What is "hard coding" the USB transceiver to be device only? Is that user-accessible software (even the kernel is user-accessible), or is it "hard wiring," either with physical wires or firmware that can't be reached by the user?

Frank

Mandor

09-28-2009, 07:47 PM

@qole :

Thank you for the translation, that is what I meant.

@Frank :

Correct me if I am wrong but from what I understand (and again you should take that lightly) OMAP3430 does support charging through the USB port and does support USB OTG. So I really don't understand when I read (http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020830.html) Nokia had to sacrifice USB OTG in order to get USB charging. Both are there anyway, don't they ?

The Pandora (http://pandorawiki.org/FAQ#What_about_the_power_supply_or_power_cable.3F) , for example (is it a good example ?) does support USB OTG, host and charging (through USB and dedicated power supply).

Again, I am just trying to understand and educate myself.

allnameswereout

09-28-2009, 08:14 PM

Yes, through the mini-AB OTG portThe USB specification does not allow microUSB to be used for both charging and OTG. Read the PDFs linked to in this thread, and the comments on these PDFs. Please read the thread before replying!

I don't understand why there is still discussion to try to enable it in software. Clearly, it does not work to enable it via procfs (or sysctl). Doesn't that automatically mean you're gonna resort to a hardware hack? While OS is running how can you go more lower level than kernel? I think, we'll have to see about that 5th ID pin.

quingu

09-29-2009, 04:48 AM

@qole :
The Pandora (http://pandorawiki.org/FAQ#What_about_the_power_supply_or_power_cable.3F) , for example (is it a good example ?) does support USB OTG, host and charging (through USB and dedicated power supply).

Well, the pandora does have two seperate usb port - one fullsize type A, and the mini otg port. Yet the developers said that one could use the otg port as a host, iirc.

Also, the pandora's otg port is exclusively usb1.1, while the fullsize port is exclusively usb2.0. Not sure what witchcraft they did to those ports.

TA-t3

09-29-2009, 05:19 AM

Also, the pandora's otg port is exclusively usb1.1, while the fullsize port is exclusively usb2.0. Not sure what witchcraft they did to those ports.
No, that's not correct. Both ports are USB2.0, but the fullsize port (the host port, USB A connector) is HS (High Speed) only, it cannot support the other two (lower) speeds. On the other hand it can provide 500mA.

The small-connector OTG port (USB mini-AB) is also USB2.0, but it can support all three speeds. It can also be configured to be host port. But this port cannot provide more than 100mA.

Edit: Found a link that describes it better than I can: http://pandorawiki.org/USB_reference

quingu

09-29-2009, 05:40 AM

I stand corrected. Thanks TA-t3.

attila77

09-29-2009, 05:54 AM

The Pandora (http://pandorawiki.org/FAQ#What_about_the_power_supply_or_power_cable.3F) , for example (is it a good example ?) does support USB OTG, host and charging (through USB and dedicated power supply).

The Pandora is sporting an uncertifiable USB configuration. It doesn't mean it doesn't work, but is (strictly speaking) against the (sometimes brain damaged) procedures and specs. But the USB certified or USB OTG sticker means a lot less for the Pandora folks than it does for Nokia.

TA-t3

09-29-2009, 06:36 AM

Note that the N900 uses micro-USB, the Pandora mini-USB. The rules are different for the former and that's what causes this particular problem.

attila77

09-29-2009, 08:13 AM

Note that the N900 uses micro-USB, the Pandora mini-USB. The rules are different for the former and that's what causes this particular problem.

Not different - the latter is simply not allowed by the standard so it has no rules :) It's the same thing as with the N800's OTG, which isn't quite OTG certified either. USB OTG (http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb_20_052709.zip) specifies "The USB On-The-Go standard introduces a new plug receptacle called Micro-AB. An OTG product must have a single Micro-AB receptacle and no other USB receptacles.". And this is just the connector, we haven't even started talking about the software/logic part of it which is also part of the certification process...

TA-t3

09-29-2009, 09:12 AM

Well yeah, some mini-usb combos were removed from the standard so in that sense it's not _now_ allowed by the standards..

As for powering a device via micro-USB: EU or someone forced the phone makers to agree on a common power charging standard. For some reason micro-USB was chosen as the plug to use. Well, anything is better than charging via an unreliable multi-connector, as most of them do, and presumably none of the others wanted to move to a "Nokia" connector, so micro-USB it is. Now, does that mean that because micro-USB is used as a power plug, _all_ USB handling has to go through it, with the limits the charging functionality causes? An additional mini-USB would, in this case, have been better. But that's not even in the standard anymore, according to e.g. the link I posted a couple of postings above (or even _allowed_, according to your quote.)

Of course the whole insane mess is only due to the USB consortium. OTG, host mode, etc. etc. --- none of that would be needed at all if the standard had been sane. Instead we're stuck with this rubbish.

quingu

09-29-2009, 09:17 AM

By the way: what exactly are the benefits of the OTG certification? What would the n900 miss if it wasn't otg certified, besides the logo?

/edit
ok, so the n900 couldn't be sold with any usb port if it wasn't certified, and anything besides micro-usb for charging isn't allowed anymore... so without the certified microusb the n900 would have been illegal or something?

Frank Banul

09-29-2009, 09:18 AM

@Mandor,

The OMAP3430 does not support charging via the USB port, that's a function of the USB transceiver which I would speculate is the TWL4030 (http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbugencontent.tsp?DCMP=WTBU&HQS=ProductBulletin+OT+twl4030&contentId=4634&templateId=6123).

@Frank :

Correct me if I am wrong but from what I understand (and again you should take that lightly) OMAP3430 does support charging through the USB port and does support USB OTG. So I really don't understand when I read (http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020830.html) Nokia had to sacrifice USB OTG in order to get USB charging. Both are there anyway, don't they ?

Frank

Frank Banul

09-29-2009, 09:27 AM

The OMAP3 processor contains 3 USB controllers (http://focus.ti.com/lit/ug/sprufd4b/sprufd4b.pdf), an OTG, an EHCI (high speed only) and an OHCI controller (full and low speed). There are some USB related errata (http://focus.ti.com/lit/er/sprz278d/sprz278d.pdf) that limit USB implementations. See 3.1.3.

No, that's not correct. Both ports are USB2.0, but the fullsize port (the host port, USB A connector) is HS (High Speed) only, it cannot support the other two (lower) speeds. On the other hand it can provide 500mA.

The small-connector OTG port (USB mini-AB) is also USB2.0, but it can support all three speeds. It can also be configured to be host port. But this port cannot provide more than 100mA.

Edit: Found a link that describes it better than I can: http://pandorawiki.org/USB_reference

Frank

TA-t3

09-29-2009, 10:42 AM

Yep, and that is whey the Pandora and the Beagleboard both have the same USB setup. And the N900 could have too, if it wasn't for the one-port only rule (see post #374 above)

qole

10-01-2009, 02:15 PM

Anyone want to compile these drivers (http://beaversource.oregonstate.edu/projects/cspfl/browser/trunk/linux-omap-2.6/drivers/usb/host?rev=34) and post the .ko files? The ehci and ohci stuff especially.

The hardware (http://beaversource.oregonstate.edu/projects/cspfl/wiki/CSPFL_Hardware) sounds very similar, although of course there's no guarantees of anything.

allnameswereout

10-01-2009, 02:54 PM

Not different - the latter is simply not allowed by the standard so it has no rules :) It's the same thing as with the N800's OTG, which isn't quite OTG certified either. USB OTG (http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb_20_052709.zip) specifies "The USB On-The-Go standard introduces a new plug receptacle called Micro-AB. An OTG product must have a single Micro-AB receptacle and no other USB receptacles.". And this is just the connector, we haven't even started talking about the software/logic part of it which is also part of the certification process...Yes, but that is from that last update from may 2009. The Nokia N800 was made before that date. Or, do you mean there never was officially a thing as USB OTG using miniUSB connectors?

Anyway, from what we gathered, Igor is absolutely right that USB consortium is the one and only organisation we should be angry at, and devote our complaint at. Not Nokia.

If your device does not adhere USB standard, you are not allowed to call that feature USB. Those are simple trademark rules, and these are even important for open standards (like with Android's 'Java'). If Pandora does not adhere USB standard but calls the ports USB then they may be in shallow waters. Perhaps they can work around by calling it USB-compatible, but even that is strictly speaking incorrect.

mini-A and mini-AB connectors have been removed from the present USB standard. This means that the above connectors may vanish from the market at some point (although there will probably be demand for them for some time). There are a lot of connectors available that were never standardized. It is recommended that you do not use them as they may lead to non-working connections. Stick to the cables and adapters mentioned above and look for a mention of "OTG" or "On The Go" and you should be on the safe side.[/quote]

Then follow 3 links:

USB 2.0 Standard (including present OTG spec) (http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb_20_122208.zip)
Original OTG Specification defining mini-A and mini-AB and allowed connections (http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/otg1_0.pdf)
mini-A and mini-AB Deprecation Announcement (http://www.usb.org/developers/Deprecation_Announcement_052507.pdf)They do not link to the revision from may 2009.

The last link is from may 23 2007 and is of particular interest:
Vendors of USB On-The-Go (OTG) products are directed to adopt the Micro-AB receptacle on all new OTG designs in lieu of the Mini-AB previously approved for this application. In addition, all Mini-A and Mini-AB connectors that are currently on the Integrators List will be removed.andOn-The-Go Supplement to the USB 2.0 Specification, Version 1.3 – Previous versions of the OTG specification contained protocol and mechanical definitions, in this new version the mechanical section is removed. The Mini-A and Mini-AB cables and connectors previously defined in the OTG Supplement no longer have a place in any USB current specification.I don't know how this certification works though. Does a final product require a certification? Then final Pandora will not pass USB certification.

TA-t3

10-02-2009, 06:27 AM

allnameswereout,

Thanks for digging through all those details. It's clear that the USB consortium is flat without any common sense. Maybe the Pandora wouldn't pass an USB certification, I don't know if there is one, but there are rules for what stickers you're allowed to use. Pandora has already, afaik, determined that they won't use the official sticker.

The Pandora has a full-size USB (host) connector plus a mini (OTG) connector, and this makes sense. And it's not the only one, my Beagleboard (bought just a few months ago) has exactly the same.

debernardis

10-02-2009, 09:23 AM

I just received my Mobidapter but it seems that the microsd slot of the E51, even if positioned on the side of the device, is too deep, and the adapter can't reach its contacts:mad::mad::mad:

I'll have to find a solution for that :mad:
At present, they are 40 Eur thrown away.
Well, maybe I'll be able somewhat to attach a flat cable and use it with the N900 :confused:

allnameswereout

10-02-2009, 11:27 AM

debernardis

10-02-2009, 12:01 PM

:confused: you can send it back and then you only lost S&H cost.

No, I'll rather try to hack it, it's more fun. I don't think it's too difficult to solder a flat cable to the contacts; on the opposite end, maybe I should use a small pcb, cut in the shape of a microsd. This way, it could allow me to connect a usb thumb drive to the n900.

allnameswereout

10-02-2009, 01:07 PM

No, I'll rather try to hack it, it's more fun. I don't think it's too difficult to solder a flat cable to the contacts; on the opposite end, maybe I should use a small pcb, cut in the shape of a microsd. This way, it could allow me to connect a usb thumb drive to the n900.Fair enough, but you cannot get your cake both ways. Either its 40 EUR wasted or its 40 EUR invested on a hack project. ;) (interesting you're onto it though!)

debernardis

10-02-2009, 01:55 PM

Instead, it seems they're really 40 Eur thrown away.

The damned thing does not work, either with E51, E90 and N810. I could insert it into the E51 slot by extracting the pcb out of the plastic shell, thus exposing a longer stem for the microsd-like contacts.
No joy, though.

When I connect the Mobidapter+the usb stick to a phone, the leds soldered to the board (which by the way are exposed only when the plastic case is opened) light briefly, and also the usb stick led lights for a second or so.

No device recognized the external flash memory.

Furthermore, after a brief experiment, the battery of my N810 got almost flat discharged.

I bet that the microsd contacts don't allow enough raw Coulombs times second for the Mobidapter circuit and the usb stick to work, and maybe there's the risk that an excessive current drawn from the thingie might damage something.

I don't know if this is a problem of the unit I received, or the Mobidapter is a prank... However, I can't advice the purchase of such a gadget.

I'll try to get a refund :(

twoboxen

10-06-2009, 09:07 PM

Bratag

10-06-2009, 09:30 PM

NOOOO!!! This thread is mucho bad news. Is there any chance that during the delay they fixed this hardware lapse?? I seriously doubt it, but man would that be nice.

Will anyone be able to discuss possible workarounds with Nokia folks at Maemo Summit this weekend?

Its not a lapse - it has to do with USB standards and a desire to squeeze something into the device - USB charging.

Its a bummer I agree.

gunni

10-08-2009, 12:16 PM

In a report that the EU demand 3.5 audio plug to be standard.
Hmm, this seems to be too late:

Nach EU-Angaben bietet nur etwa ein Viertel aller verkauften Geräte Datenfunktionen an, doch selbst Einfach-Handys sollen in Zukunft über eine Micro-USB-Buchse geladen werden. Sofern die Geräte auch eine USB-Host-Funktion aufweisen, könnten die Hersteller nach Meinung der CTIA jedoch auf die Klinkenbuchse verzichten und stattdessen ein Headset mit USB-Anschluss mitliefern.

Google translated:

According to EU figures only provides about one quarter of all units sold to date functions, but even easy phones will continue on a micro-USB connector to be loaded. If the devices have a USB Host function that would allow the producers, according to the CTIA, however, dispense with the jack and instead supply a headset with a USB port.

Source (german): http://www.heise.de/mobil/meldung/CTIA-fordert-3-5-mm-Buchsen-fuer-Mobiltelefone-818548.html

*Edit*: Ok, could also be read as "when the device has micro for loading, and additional mini (or other allowed for USB-Host)"

SubCore

10-08-2009, 12:49 PM

the text you quote only says that a 3,5mm audio jack is optional if the device provides USB host mode.
otherwise, a 3,5mm audio jack is required to ensure headset compatibility between devices.

imokruok

10-08-2009, 01:49 PM

I realize that this is probably just piling on, but I was hoping to combine three devices with this product - a netbook, an MP3 player, and a backup GSM phone. I travel with all of those things, plus my Blackberry for worldwide push e-mail and calling. The netbook serves the purpose of browsing on a larger screen, watching videos, and backing up/posting pictures from my DSLR.

Doesn't look like that last feature will be possible on the N900, since I won't be able to copy files off of an SDHC card to the device. Also, I can't remember how many times I've been traveling with friends or colleagues, and we need to have a sneakernet with a USB drive to share a large file. Bummer, really, since this might be the only thing that keeps me from selling three items on eBay and pulling the trigger on this.

LOVED my N800 but can't see a reason to jump to this new unit yet unless someone comes up with a USB workaround.

mikec

10-08-2009, 02:35 PM

imokruok

10-08-2009, 03:04 PM

Yup, that's one way to solve that problem, but inelegant. I already have a wallet full of class 6 SDHCs that would cost $$ to replace in micro format. Plus, the micro+reader is inherently less reliable from a shock/vibration aspect. I have occasional problems with micro->full SD adapters when they're on my desk...can't imagine they fare any better when subjected to constant movement.

I really want to like the N900. But convergence for me may have to wait until the next model. Would love to get this side by side with an iPod touch as well. Looks like the same screen size, but the resolution is so much higher!

gunni

10-09-2009, 04:18 AM

the text you quote only says that a 3,5mm audio jack is optional if the device provides USB host mode.
otherwise, a 3,5mm audio jack is required to ensure headset compatibility between devices.
Thats true, but as micro-USB is mandatory for loading, it would make no sense to add another USB port just for allowing host mode.
I interpret that as "USB will allow host mode over micro-USB", but thats just interpretation.

yannj

10-10-2009, 11:30 AM

If anyone has an idea about both this questions :

- Will Wifi integrated card allow promiscuous mode (... to use with Wireshark)
- What could be the best way to connect a ethernet adapter (and please don't say : buy a AP and connect is to network, because AP could filter packets regarding to MAC addresses...)

Matan

10-10-2009, 11:36 AM

- What could be the best way to connect a ethernet adapter (and please don't say : buy a AP and connect is to network, because AP could filter packets regarding to MAC addresses...)

There is no way to connect an ethernet adapter. Why would you want to connect a cellular phone to an ethernet network?

pelago

10-10-2009, 12:00 PM

Why would you want to connect a cellular phone to an ethernet network?
I'm not yannj but for me this would be useful for network admin stuff, e.g. testing Ethernet sockets or switches. I use a netbook for now, but an N900 would be even smaller/lighter, which is good when climbing up ladders.

thecursedfly

10-10-2009, 12:01 PM

- What could be the best way to connect a ethernet adapter (and please don't say : buy a AP and connect is to network, because AP could filter packets regarding to MAC addresses...)

maybe wirelessly with something like what I wrote here? dunno
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=331503&postcount=268

yannj

10-10-2009, 04:41 PM

Accessing a cabled ethernet network is an important thing when working in network. That sometimes not possible to take with you a laptop.
Moreover, I would like to use N900 to probe a network for capture during several hours and get the device back for analysis..
This could be another use for this device... which is more than a internet communicator I guess

allnameswereout

10-10-2009, 05:03 PM

Accessing a cabled ethernet network is an important thing when working in network. That sometimes not possible to take with you a laptop.A netbook?

Moreover, I would like to use N900 to probe a network for capture during several hours and get the device back for analysis..
This could be another use for this device... which is more than a internet communicator I guessYou'd leave your N900 alone for several hours? Might as well connect sth like SheevaPlug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SheevaPlug).

Matan

10-10-2009, 05:21 PM

Accessing a cabled ethernet network is an important thing when working in network. That sometimes not possible to take with you a laptop.

So you want a mobile computer, not a cellular phone.

andree

10-10-2009, 05:49 PM

So you want a mobile computer, not a cellular phone.

yes, and it's been mentioned here a few times already - nokia itself claims n900 is a (mobile) computer in advertisments... (without usb, a kinda' limited one...)

yannj

10-10-2009, 06:01 PM

"Internet tablet" ... that's what N900 is said to be (at least in France...)

allnameswereout

10-10-2009, 06:23 PM

Hmm the name internet tablet is phased out. :confused:

Not all mobile computers have ethernet... there are more ways to get Internet connectivity besides using ethernet for connectivity.

As I said there are many devices already which do this what you want, and are cheaper (SheevaPlug costs 100 EUR). I mean, why would you leave your 600 EUR worth phone alone for 2+ hours.

Yes, would be really nice if N900 could do it, yet it won't! Send your complaints to USB IF though.. not Nokia...

:)

mattiviljanen

10-10-2009, 06:40 PM

About Ethernet connection: simply overkill. IMHO, note IMHO, N900 is a cell phone, with wifi and multimedia capabilities. Should it have RJ-45 port, it would A) look ugly as hell B) add extra cost C) be useless to most users. And it has 3G data transfer, too!

About USB OTG: not so overkill. To me, quite useless - with the sole exception of USB mass memory connection, and with a huge question mark, game controller. Bluetooth can be used, too, and is more elegant with a small device like N900 (it's smaller than the controller!)

Please, try to remember, that purpose of N900 is to be Internet tablet, media player, backup camera and a cell phone. Everything else is just frigging cool candy! It is very hard, or in many cases impossible, to make the device do something not supported by the hardware. The power lays in software, instead! I have, for example, completed some of my programming homework using gcc on my current N810 - just how cool is that?

yannj

10-10-2009, 07:45 PM

Well of course I don't want it include a ethernet card.. but if the USB had supported host feature it would have allow the connection of a USB ethernet adapter.
For the moment I will use as it is done for : internet, phone etc...

bdogg64

10-10-2009, 09:13 PM

Found this is in the extra-devel repository in the maemo 5 final sdk

BruceL

10-11-2009, 12:49 AM

Please, try to remember, that purpose of N900 is to be Internet tablet, media player, backup camera and a cell phone.

Says who? That isn't my purpose. If that was the purpose Nokia was thinking of (and I'm fairly sure it isn't) they are small visioned.

My purpose is that I want an all-in-one-device: Full computer, camera, GPS, guitar-tuner, network-tester, music studio, oscilloscope, communicator, tri-corder, medical diagnostic tool, car/home e-key, credit-ecard. I don't think I'm the only one. When I go out I want to grab my "phone" device, a pocket tool-kit/knife, and maybe a harmonica, and have all my stuff with me. I don't want to go "hmm for my job today I'll also need a laptop and some reference books, and an iPod and ..."

So that's my purpose. And the N900 can do a LOT of that. So what do I want in the next model? Spectrometer, Projection screen (1600x1024), bluetooth watch-as-a-dashboard support, ...

Not everyone has the same purpose for buying something.

vkv.raju

10-11-2009, 01:34 AM

Says who? That isn't my purpose. If that was the purpose Nokia was thinking of (and I'm fairly sure it isn't) they are small visioned.

My purpose is that I want an all-in-one-device: Full computer, camera, GPS, guitar-tuner, network-tester, music studio, oscilloscope, communicator, tri-corder, medical diagnostic tool, car/home e-key, credit-ecard. I don't think I'm the only one. When I go out I want to grab my "phone" device, a pocket tool-kit/knife, and maybe a harmonica, and have all my stuff with me. I don't want to go "hmm for my job today I'll also need a laptop and some reference books, and an iPod and ..."

So that's my purpose. And the N900 can do a LOT of that. So what do I want in the next model? Spectrometer, Projection screen (1600x1024), bluetooth watch-as-a-dashboard support, ...

Not everyone has the same purpose for buying something.

Me too want a swiss knife ..err... fin knife ..err... fin fone

qole

10-11-2009, 04:30 AM

bdogg64: usbcontrol doesn't work.

others: If you need a portable network testing device that is smaller than a laptop, get your company to buy an N810 for you. It is a great Internet radio listening device when it is on your desk, too.

allnameswereout

10-11-2009, 04:47 AM

Found this is in the extra-devel repository in the maemo 5 final sdkYeah, and that means exactly nothing. Its been there since july 14 2009. (http://maemo.org/packages/view/usbcontrol/) But its software support for Fremantle. Doesn't mean it will work correct on Nokia N900...

andree

10-11-2009, 05:12 AM

qole:

and you really don't see the beauty of a single device for all of it? Ever since nvidia released the tegra platform, I 'dream' about device, that will have a hdmi ouput (at least. 1680x1050 :)), some usb port (for external kbd, mouse, ethernet, usb dongle), and an open linux inside.. N900 could've been almost it - we'll see what n900+1 will be...

(btw, once one does networking stuff at work, it really makes no difference, whether he has to use mobile+netbook, or mobile+n810+usb2eth... single device+usb2eth would be a different story...)

however, it makes me sad that some of you guys already have your n900's (some at least since the nokia parade in Amsterdam) - yet noone tried to test the usb otg...

Instead we're still discussing the same things over and over (this is 413. post)... ;-)

mattiviljanen

10-11-2009, 06:54 AM

My purpose is that I want an all-in-one-device: Full computer, camera, GPS, guitar-tuner, network-tester, music studio, oscilloscope, communicator, tri-corder, medical diagnostic tool, car/home e-key, credit-ecard. [...]

This (http://www.nokia.fi/tuotteet/minikannettavat/nokia-booklet-3g) is for you, then.

:D

SubCore

10-11-2009, 07:38 AM

however, it makes me sad that some of you guys already have your n900's (some at least since the nokia parade in Amsterdam) - yet noone tried to test the usb otg..

come on now, there's still stuff scheduled for today (http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Summit_2009/Schedule#Sunday.2C_October_11). don't be so impatient ;)
since the NDAs apparently have been lifted, i'm sure it's only gonna be a short time before someone tries.

adamnair

10-11-2009, 05:28 PM

Mobidapter

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/backend/phpThumb/phpThumb.php?wl=200&wp=100&src=/home/allabout/public_html/reviews/images/mobidapter1.jpg

Ugly as hell, but might work?

http://mobile.allaboutsymbian.com/reviews/item/Mobidapter.php

wont work because N900's card reader is only accessible after removing the battery cover

allnameswereout

10-11-2009, 05:46 PM

wont work because N900's card reader is only accessible after removing the battery coverCraves1 hack showed a flat extension 'cable' can be made. If it matters so much to you... why not.

debernardis

10-12-2009, 12:24 AM

Craves1 hack showed a flat extension 'cable' can be made. If it matters so much to you... why not.

I'm waiting for my *new* mobidapter to try out. (The one I received was horribly faulty).

icebox

10-12-2009, 08:07 AM

mobidapter schmobidapter, there's more to plug into usb than sticks :)

Since developers got n900's at the summit we should expect real info soon.

I think this thread is deviating from the original purpose. I see two camps: people that want to plug something and people replying with different ways of achieving that function (ethernet vs portable ap, usb sticks vs cardreaders and mobidapters and so on)

I think we should stick to the original point: does or does it not allow usb host mode (even limited power or power injection). Leave it up to the ones that care about usb host to use it.

AndyM

10-12-2009, 12:34 PM

JayOnThaBeat

10-12-2009, 12:36 PM

Sorry if I'm a bit slow, but what does this restriction mean in practice? What (if any) USB devices will work with the N900, and which won't?

With my N810, I can connect to my laptop (with the supplied cable), and to memory sticks and a portable USB keyboard (using an OTG cable I got on ebay). Would I be able to do any of these with the N900?

You will be able to read the N900 as a drive on your pc, but you won't be able to read other drives on the N900.

...nor keyboards and whatnot, as is my understanding.

Flandry

10-12-2009, 12:57 PM

Yeah the distinction is between host vs client mode. If you are plugging the device into something else (e.g. computer) and using it on than something else, it will work fine. On the other hand, if you want the N900 to act as a host--to plug something into N900 and use it on N900--it won't.

Except on the off chance that OTG is supported after all. After reading a lot of this thread, i really think that horse has been dead and beat into the ground and people are now just beating the ground. :D

allnameswereout

10-12-2009, 07:20 PM

One guy who got a N900 demo model has been told on Summit he would not need to worry about USB host mode since it was a software issue. Source (http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_message/32721596#32721596).

English translation (used Google Translate; accurate result):

I've tried to install USB control, but that seemed to do nothing (I think it is intended for Maemo 4, was in fact the developer experimental unstable repository).
But during the summit has a Nokia employee told me that I'm not to worry, and USB host mode is indeed possible, it would be a software issuePlease note I'm just journaling this information. I do not know the authenticity.

Here is output of lsusb -v (http://pastebin.ca/1615184) as mentioned by someone in 'please post dmesg' thread.

pelago

10-13-2009, 06:59 AM

Oooh, interesting. I wonder who the Nokia employee was, and whether this really is correct.

twoboxen

10-13-2009, 09:18 AM

I'm guessing we all want it to be true so bad, that even likely incorrect information will get us excited.

That being said, I REALLY hope that the information is true.

danish

10-13-2009, 10:26 AM

check this link guys

http://pocketnow.com/smartphone/ctia-nokia-demoes-n900-tablet-with-maemo-and-linux

qgil

10-13-2009, 10:56 AM

Remember that this thread started with a link to maemo-developers emails where Igor Stoppa and myself being clear. Trust Igor.

Flandry

10-13-2009, 11:01 AM

You can pronounce it may moe like the rest of the native English speaking world if you want...

I didn't hear any mention of USB host in that vid clip. Too tired maybe. I mean, my be.

JayOnThaBeat

10-13-2009, 11:05 AM

You can pronounce it may moe like the rest of the native English speaking world if you want...

I didn't hear any mention of USB host in that vid clip. Too tired maybe. I mean, my be.

Ur right on both counts.

1. I actually liked it better when I thought it was 3 syllables, but i'll stick with may-moe now that I know the truth.

2. no mention of usb otg.

in conclusion, I didn't take this off-topic, the joker with the vid link did. :D

|||EDIT

Well, I just figured it out where I subconsciously got the "May" from:

Fannie Mae(May) -> Mae(May)-Mo.

It isn't Fannie-My, after all ;)

shadowjk

10-13-2009, 11:06 AM

I guess one bit of confusiln comes with OTG vs Host mode. I've personally never used otg, but used host mode many times on N810. The otg adapters are nearly impossible to find, but female-female usb adapters can be found in almost any store, which is kinda funny, what good are they for besides n8x0 usb?

It's very clear tha n900 has no OTG, since the port is wrong type.

what hasn't been clear, I think, is whether the transceiver can at all be configured into host mode from software, or if it requires fifth pin signaling and otg adapter (which is impossible since n900 doesn't have it)

shadowjk

10-13-2009, 11:24 AM

Oh, I'd also guess that n900 lacks the hw for supplying power on usb, so even if the transceiver can be put into host mode from software, and the kernel is taught how to do it, if possible, power injection would be a must.

pelago

10-13-2009, 11:45 AM

Remember that this thread started with a link to maemo-developers emails where Igor Stoppa and myself being clear. Trust Igor.
Thanks Quim. Maybe you need to tell these Nokia reps (whoever they are) to stop saying the device can do USB host or USB-OTG, if it isn't true.

sarahn

10-14-2009, 02:24 AM

If I'm reading the kernel configuration correctly, the n900 kernel has OTG support with both host and peripheral support compiled in, in addition to other drivers used by a host. I would find it a tad odd if that were enabled for no reason. So eh, why not try it even if it's not officially to the USB spec and you have to use a powered hub. There should be an easy knob to twist.

ladoga

10-14-2009, 04:36 PM

USB host mode is really important for me as I wan't to upload images taken with my DSLR camera while on the move.

As you might know most if not all of hobbyist/pro range DSLR cameras use Compact Flash cards and the only sane way to copy images to a computer (or similar device) is through USB. (or a CF card reader that plugs into USB/IDE/SATA bus).

IMHO "mobile computer" needs to have an USB host mode. People have lots of USB devices and being able to use them with their "mobile computer" as with any other computer is a must.

I'm looking for a device which would combine my cellphone and portable computer so I wouldn't have to lug both with me. N900 sounds almost like it. It has everything in it and runs on open source OS...everything except USB host mode.

From what i've read here i got an impression that the next maemo device after N900 will have the USB host. I think i'll pass this one and wait for it.

JayOnThaBeat

10-14-2009, 04:39 PM

From what i've read here i got an impression that the next maemo device after N900 will have the USB host. I think i'll pass this one and wait for it.

That impression is unfounded... nobody knows anything.

On a separate note, welcome to the forum!

pierro78

10-14-2009, 04:40 PM

As you might know most if not all of hobbyist/pro range DSLR cameras use Compact Flash cards
I don't know about performance but you could put a micro sdhc card in a CF adapter (exple : http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000YZGCIU ) to use it in your camera. (the N900 then has a micro sdhc slot).

Hogwash

10-14-2009, 04:48 PM

Matan

10-14-2009, 04:51 PM

That impression is unfounded... nobody knows anything.

Nokia specifically said that the N900 does not have USB host due to time constraints[1]. It makes sense to understand that Nokia think that USB host mode should be in a "mobile computer", and that if the next device will not be rushed to market, it will have this functionality.

[1] http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020828.html

Matan

10-14-2009, 06:29 PM

This problem of both charging and providing power on the same pins can be solved. Even if not, it can be worked around.

convulted

10-14-2009, 06:47 PM

This problem of both charging and providing power on the same pins can be solved. Even if not, it can be worked around.

Technically, sure, it can be worked around and/or solved. However, for Nokia to obtain USB certification, they couldn't do both.

---

And one other thing, to whoever suggested putting an SD card inside a CF to SD converter: DSLR cameras use CF for a number of reasons, but primarily speed. I do not think this advantage carries over to using SD cards inside CF to SD converters. Moreover, some card types (xD, thanks Fuji!) have no equivalent converters, so those of use who use them are screwed in this respect.

I suppose that this usage case, while common, is not going to be a dealbreaker for many people.
What I absolutely cannot understand, as a use case, is wanting to use the N**0 with a DVD drive. Sure, it's fun in a geeky sort of way (and I'm sure many of us who had the original 770 connected it to a vast array of peripherals), but no one seriously expects Nokia (or any sane company, for the matter) to cater for the bizarre eventuality of someone saying that they do not want to rip their CDs or DVDs but want to lug around the drive and connect it to their phone. It might be interesting as a side project, and it may even give some useful by product, but calling it a dealbreaker is... well... stupid.

Just my 2p.

</rant> ... <lurk>

Hogwash

10-14-2009, 06:52 PM

@convulted - I think the 'dealbreaker' aspect of this is that you can't connect a USB thumbdrive or keyboard...far more reasonable use cases.

convulted

10-14-2009, 07:02 PM

@convulted - I think the 'dealbreaker' aspect of this is that you can't connect a USB thumbdrive or keyboard...far more reasonable use cases.

I understand that, and can (almost) see why people would want to give up on the device because of that shortcoming, but I guess what I wanted to convey was:

1. >99% of users will not be affected by this issue...
2. ... except in a few instances where workarounds can be found
3. For some people, there is no alternative to using USB while on the go (!= OTG; no pun intended)...
4. ... and for those people: shouting at Nokia until you're blue in the face will do you no good. It is the USB guys you have to be shouting at. However, ...
5. ... if your use case is as silly as wanting to connect a DVD/CD drive because you do not want to rip movies/songs, then you need to take a deep breath, count to 10 and decide to grow up. Just my opinion, of course.

Hogwash

10-14-2009, 07:23 PM

Shouting at the 'USB people' simply isn't a sincere or credible option. Regular joes aren't part of the engineering scene. The only interface the public realistically has is with the actual consumer-goods producers - the Nokias of this world.

It is up to Nokia et al to sort this out. Raising hell is the best way to bring our demands to their attention....we are their raison d'etre.

bocaJ

10-14-2009, 08:54 PM

Maybe getting back on topic, what have the 300-400 or so prototype owners tried in terms of getting USB enabled? Not too long ago, people were talking about being able to force host mode via a software "TEST_MODE" flag. Any luck with this? Can anyone smarter than me (with or without a device) post a script for adventurous users to try?

Personally, I wouldn't feel too bad about having to carry around a little powered hub with some sort of batter pack hack to get this working.

qole

10-14-2009, 09:12 PM

Yeah I would appreciate it if nobody else posted whining, this-is-a-dealbreaker nonsense. We've got several hundred of those posts now. Yeah we get it.

If you don't have solutions, or at least suggestions for solutions, there's really nothing more for you to say here.

Could someone compile the drivers I linked to a while ago? That would be helpful.

BruceL

10-15-2009, 06:33 AM

Yeah I would appreciate it if nobody else posted whining, this-is-a-dealbreaker nonsense. We've got several hundred of those posts now. Yeah we get it.

Actually, and surprisingly, it doesn't sound like you do get it. Perhaps you (falsely) believe that it means I/we will abandon Nokia. No; It just means waiting until the fixed hardware so we don't have to purchase twice. At $500 it certaintly isn't nonsense to wait a little while for the fix.

5. ... if your use case is as silly as wanting to connect a DVD/CD drive because you do not want to rip movies/songs, then you need to take a deep breath, count to 10 and decide to grow up. Just my opinion, of course.

You clearly don't get it either. I DO want to rip media. But how can I do that without USB? I'd have to have an entire extra computer just for ripping - I have other plans for my current one and N800. So if my choices are

1) Pay $500 now, AND maintain another computer for ripping, and other USB tasks, AND pay $500 more when the fix arrives.

2) Wait a bit and just pay $500 once and not have to keep/maintain another computer for ripping/etc.

It's not irrational that some people prefer #2. Qole, when USB is fixed, are you going to want to pay another $500? I'd rather wait.

What's with all the pressure to censor this forum? Everyone who would rather wait a little while for the USB fix and save $500 let it be known that this is important.

Qole and everyone who seems to (for reasons I don't understand) have an emotional issue with my/our choice: CHILL!

If ligitimate posts are triggering some kind of child-hood issue or something, DON'T READ THEM! But ask yourself why a post is causing you such anxiety.

--
I'll iterate one more time because I don't believe you are catching the content:

1) I have another use planned for my current computer and N800.
2) I want to have USB so that I can do things like rip media.
3) The N900 apparently doesn't support USB in that way.
4) But a soon pending model probably will.
----------------------------------------
Therefore, I'll EITHER have to buy an extra N900 when the fix arrives,

OR I can wait a little while longer which is a significant financial advantage for me.

--> I'm not abandoning Nokia.
--> It isn't irrational
--> Letting Nokia know of the problem is helpful to them.
--> The apparent "postophobia" some have IS irrational.
--> So drop it.

attila77

10-15-2009, 06:41 AM

What I absolutely cannot understand, as a use case, is wanting to use the N**0 with a DVD drive. Sure, it's fun in a geeky sort of way (and I'm sure many of us who had the original 770 connected it to a vast array of peripherals), but no one seriously expects Nokia (or any sane company, for the matter) to cater for the bizarre eventuality of someone saying that they do not want to rip their CDs or DVDs but want to lug around the drive and connect it to their phone. It might be interesting as a side project, and it may even give some useful by product, but calling it a dealbreaker is... well... stupid.

After playing back some videos on the TV I realized it would have been sort of 'natural' to hook it to a DVD drive and play stuff from there, too. Yes, I know, DVD players are dirt cheap. However, they cannot do all the funky subtitle/video/audio stuff you can do with good ole mplayer. So there, not a dealbreaker, but I do miss it as with the video-out we gained a few more use-cases for the thing.

Yeah I would appreciate it if nobody else posted whining, this-is-a-dealbreaker nonsense. We've got several hundred of those posts now. Yeah we get it.

Drink !

qole

10-15-2009, 02:03 PM

BruceL: I really don't care about your use cases, or whether or not you buy the N900. Seriously. There's no emotional issues there at all. You do what you feel is right for you.

I just have come to terms with the fact that the N900 will not have USB host mode, at least not out-of-the-box from Nokia. Maybe some future device will have it, but that isn't what this thread is about, and telling everyone that you aren't going to buy the N900 just isn't useful here.

I'm a long-time USB host-mode user on the tablets. I find it very useful. I'd like to see some of this functionality on the N900 too.

I'm just really bored with the complaining. Why don't we all start trying to see what we can do to fix things, instead?

But as JayOnThaBeat pointed out, this isn't do.maemo.org, it is talk.maemo.org.

So carry on.

(Here's a link to my post (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=337668&postcount=380) requesting some drivers get compiled, for anyone who wants to try to do something.)

Hogwash

10-15-2009, 02:09 PM

Could someone compile the drivers I linked to a while ago? That would be helpful.

Quit the whining "compile my drivers!" posts ;)

BruceL

10-15-2009, 02:10 PM

I'm with you on that Qole. But it IS useful to register that the issue is important to people. I am resigned to the USB situation as well and I haven't actually canceled my pre-order. :o

But language like "whining" and "silly" and "nonsense" that appeared to apply to my (not silly at all) concerns solicited my response because I don't want the message that USB is important in the future to be watered down. And, it seemed like a personal attack.

Cheers!

qole

10-15-2009, 02:53 PM

Hogwash: You're so mean. I hate you.

BruceL: No, no. No personal attacks intended. It's not you, it's me. Let's just be friends, OK?

allnameswereout

10-15-2009, 03:07 PM

USB OTG is not the same as USB Host. USB OTG is an embedded spec that enables devices to have knowledge about certain other devices built into them. That way you can plug a camera directly into a printer and have them talk...without needing to have a PC in-between.

Even basic USB supports host (A-device) or peripheral (B-device) mode. It's a software issue. I don't understand why this basic functionality would be crippled...unless they only had time to fully test the B-mode software, and do not have A-mode coded yet. Maybe A-mode sucked to much power so they left it uncoded.

Can Quim speak to this?qgil has already spoken... read the thread.

What you say is also already addressed. I've read the microUSB spec a bit (the revision). Not every device with microUSB supports A and B mode. For starters, the plug has to support both to support both A and B. Furthermore, the spec says it is not allowed to support both powering via microUSB as well as host mode. This is limited on hardware layer.

If you Nokia N900 wih USB host mode you're wanting something which will probably never be possible. Don't count on it. Change your priorities.

Can someone edit the first post with clarification linking to qgil's post. Or add that post in the first post. We're getting the same arguments based on misinformation over and over again.

debernardis

10-16-2009, 01:25 AM

Can someone edit the first post with clarification linking to qgil's post. Or add that post in the first post. We're getting the same arguments based on misinformation over and over again.

Done. Indeed, both Quim Gil and Igor Stoppa were already linked from the first post. Now they are explicitly quoted.

convulted

10-16-2009, 06:21 AM

BruceL: No, no. No personal attacks intended. It's not you, it's me. Let's just be friends, OK?

Oooh so much love. Can I be friends too?
(I've been reading the runaway "Did Your N900 Ship Today?" thread and started getting a little bit silly myself...)

andrecg

10-16-2009, 10:16 PM

Please see this blog:
http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/kate-alholas-forum-nokia-blog/2008/01/21/usb-on-the-go

And this specification:
http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/1822/

And this cable:
http://www.cableuniverse.co.uk/catalog/cables/USB-A-to-Micro-USB-B-Cable.html

nashith

10-16-2009, 10:46 PM

I just had to say something, does anybody except the USB Consortium know WHY they need to have USB-OTG and for what type of devices do they actually intend USB-OTG? If the N900 doesn't fit to the type of device then its alright, else we could partially blame Nokia for false marketing or not knowing what users want. This thread is getting so big, somebody please resolve this or just freeze it.

daperl

10-17-2009, 10:37 AM

Furthermore, the spec says it is not allowed to support both powering via microUSB as well as host mode. This is limited on hardware layer.

Did you mean "charging" and not "powering?" Regardless, this statement is untrue even if I don't understand what you're trying to say. As an example, please read section "6. Accessory Charger Adapter" of "Battery Charging Specification, Revision 1.1." Here's a diagram of an OTG device acting as host while being charged:

4399

pelago

10-17-2009, 05:57 PM

allnameswereout

10-17-2009, 06:46 PM

Did you mean "charging" and not "powering?""Powering" as in "empowering".

Regardless, this statement is untrue even if I don't understand what you're trying to say. As an example, please read section "6. Accessory Charger Adapter" of "Battery Charging Specification, Revision 1.1." Here's a diagram of an OTG device acting as host while being charged:Please refer to your source (http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/batt_charging_1_1.zip) next time you quote from one.

Your example is the only exception I'm aware of.

MicroUSB revision says a USB OTG device may only have 1 MicroUSB connector which must be MicroUSB AB type.

Nokia N900 has MicroUSB type B which may only use EH mode.

If Nokia N900 had MicroUSB type AB it'd not be allowed to be used for charging and host mode using its same port without an accessory such as the one you state. In that case, one might as well carry a Nokia adapter for charging.

daperl

10-17-2009, 10:29 PM

Please refer to your source (http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/batt_charging_1_1.zip) next time you quote from one.

Sorry, thanks.

MicroUSB revision says a USB OTG device may only have 1 MicroUSB connector which must be MicroUSB AB type.

Nokia N900 has MicroUSB type B which may only use EH mode.

If Nokia N900 had MicroUSB type AB it'd not be allowed to be used for charging and host mode using its same port without an accessory such as the one you state. In that case, one might as well carry a Nokia adapter for charging.

If you're saying that the USB specs seem too brittle, I agree. Maybe backwards compatibility is causing some problems. That would be a bummer, because I like USB and I like backwards compatibility.

lmf

10-19-2009, 02:25 PM

There is a possibility to add USB host to the n900.
This might sound weird, but we'll need a seccond device... an access point, which also runs Linux, and has a USB (host) port...
I did something similar a few months ago (on another device)

I've submited a few ideas to the PUSH program, and If I get lucky enough to be selected and get a n900 (or a discount), I'll try and implement a virtual usb port for the n900.
This way, you can connect a usb device to a specific (but cheap) USB enabled access point, whose "host port" is then "forwarded" to the n900, via WIFI.

keeping my fingers crossed.. ;)

qole

10-19-2009, 03:05 PM

lmf: Sounds a bit like my idea... The N800 could be considered a "cheap USB enabled access point" these days... The problem is finding them...

allnameswereout

10-19-2009, 04:52 PM

This might sound weird, but we'll need a seccond device... an access point, which also runs Linux, and has a USB (host) port...

[...]

This way, you can connect a usb device to a specific (but cheap) USB enabled access point, whose "host port" is then "forwarded" to the n900, via WIFI.Thanks, but both ideas are already discussed in the thread, and various solutions are linked to. Each solution has their side effects.

For example, in the first example the 'second device which runs Linux' (does not _have_ to be Linux btw) is the actual 'client' because its the 'host'; the N900 is assumed a dumb device (EH). Can be solved by issuing remote CLI commands or SSH X11 forwarding. It also must have 2 USB ports: 1 for the N900, 1 for the USB device (printer, camera, HDD, ...).

The second solution provides much less bandwith. Its an option I can use right now e.g. my DSL modem can get a USB HDD attached.

A dedicated project for this might be best. I think it could even integrate the hosting of the 3"5 SATA. OTOH, I don't take USB for data transfers too seriously... eSATA, FW, (i)SCSI, FC for me. Perhaps ZFS + iSCSI is a nice solution.

qole

10-19-2009, 05:46 PM

Would something like this Bluetooth USB Hub + Cardreader (http://usb.brando.com/55-in-1-bluetooth-card-reader-hub_p00280c031d015.html) work? Or does it need to be plugged into a computer?

Matan

10-19-2009, 06:10 PM

This (or something similar) came up in this thread a few times. It is a USB hub with a BT dongle (and a card reader) connected to it. Nothing that helps the N900.

bocaJ

10-19-2009, 06:40 PM

The description of the device is kind of vague, Qole, but I think that yeah, it is really designed to be used by a device that has a USB port and give that device bluetooth.

Still, some sort of wireless device wouldn't be out of the question, I just have yet to see a bluetooth->USB Port device.

In the mean time, anyone try compiling the USB drivers that Quim has linked to several time?

allnameswereout

10-19-2009, 06:52 PM

attila77

10-19-2009, 07:20 PM

bocaJ

10-19-2009, 07:25 PM

USB drivers??? Which???

Someone with Nokia N900 do benchmark on how much max throughput in mbps is when scp to copy to and from Nokia N900 using 802.11g, and USB. On Nokia N810 I got something like 24 mbit/sec; it never saturated over 802.11g. The reason this is interesting is to get clear the performance difference between 802.11g versus USB, to understand if 802.11g is a worthwhile contender.

I said Quim, meant Qole, sorry. Anyways, he posted these drivers here. Hopefully the N800/810 USB adapter cable+Powered USB Hub+These drivers+lots of luck=Full USB support:

http://beaversource.oregonstate.edu/projects/cspfl/browser/trunk/linux-omap-2.6/drivers/usb/host?rev=34

allnameswereout

10-19-2009, 07:47 PM

USB is a LOT faster on the N900 than it was on the N8x0s. I'm getting fairly consistent 10MB+/s speeds without the N900 breaking a sweat. WiFi is also significantly faster, but not by as much as the USB.Thanks. Indeed, 802.11g max 54 mbit/sec, that is already much less than 10MB+/sec. I still would like to know the max over USB though.. :)

Texrat

10-19-2009, 07:57 PM

Aaarrrggg!!!

/me commits to writing VBulletin macro that automatically bounces posts to appropriate topics.

allnameswereout

10-19-2009, 08:32 PM

I said Quim, meant Qole, sorry. Anyways, he posted these drivers here. Hopefully the N800/810 USB adapter cable+Powered USB Hub+These drivers+lots of luck=Full USB support:

http://beaversource.oregonstate.edu/projects/cspfl/browser/trunk/linux-omap-2.6/drivers/usb/host?rev=34Why was this removed?

It was first move to http://beaversource.oregonstate.edu/projects/cspfl/browser/trunk/software/linux-omap-2.6/drivers/usb/host?rev=126&order=date&desc=1 btw 126 is last revision this tree existed.

Note several files got updated after revision 34!!! All the way up to revision 95, and outside of drivers/usb/host a few more revisions.

Comment of 83 is: "USB HOST IS WORKING-ISH RIGHT NOW!@#!@"

This comment however is 9 months old. The MicroUSB revision is from 24 may 2009.

The project is not hosted anymore on the page you referred that is why the last revision is 126. Here are correct links http://beaversource.oregonstate.edu/projects/cspfl/wiki/CSPFL_Kernel

texaslabrat

10-19-2009, 08:42 PM

USB drivers??? Which???

Someone with Nokia N900 do benchmark on how much max throughput in mbps is when scp to copy to and from Nokia N900 using 802.11g, and USB. On Nokia N810 I got something like 24 mbit/sec; it never saturated over 802.11g. The reason this is interesting is to get clear the performance difference between 802.11g versus USB, to understand if 802.11g is a worthwhile contender.

24Mbps is pretty much saturating 802.11g with tcp, actually. The 54Mbps is a theoretical max based on the signaling rate. When you add in the overhead from the various protocol layers as well as the TDMA-like stuff, the real-world speed is significantly lower.

http://www.oreillynet.com/wireless/2003/08/08/wireless_throughput.html

sjgadsby

10-19-2009, 10:07 PM

Oh, and what's this? A bluetooth USB hub?
http://www.inspector-gadget.co.uk/blog_134.shtml

Sadly, it appears the review at inspector-gadget is entirely off-base and this device is simply another USB hub with built-in Bluetooth adapter, not a magical USB-Bluetooth bridge. The first clue was that QVC UK (of all places) sells it. The second was the product description and review there (http://www.qvcuk.com/ukqic/qvcapp.aspx/app.detail/params.item.557292/walk.yah.UKCL-UK48).

allnameswereout

10-20-2009, 04:31 PM

24Mbps is pretty much saturating 802.11g with tcp, actually. The 54Mbps is a theoretical max based on the signaling rate. When you add in the overhead from the various protocol layers as well as the TDMA-like stuff, the real-world speed is significantly lower.

http://www.oreillynet.com/wireless/2003/08/08/wireless_throughput.htmlThanks, I performed a test of transmitting 1 GB of /dev/random data using 802.11g w/WPA2 using scp without compression. With no other load my average speed with a conservative noted link quality of 45/70 was 2,3 MB/sec.

From what I understood, more WLAN clients even decrease the available bandwidth because every client gets an equal speed to/from the WiFi AP.

However in the use-case where a user in a hotel with a WiFi AP with external HDD attached to it uses Nokia N900 to access the AP and HDD I think you can assume a good link quality, and the choice of only 1 client. So while on a public AP or subscription-based AP the speed would seriously decline in our use-case the user has full control over the AP.

The reason it is interested to see the throughput of USB is to get clear in which use-cases external HDD + WiFi AP is a feasable solution. Obviously, not in the case a user wants to watch 720p movies from their HDD, but in which situations is it usable? Say the HDD is full with MP3s. Usable? I think so. Pictures? Depends on quality. And, when is USB HDD not useful? Need to know max throughput for that answer.

qole

10-21-2009, 05:54 PM

Oh! A glimmer, ever-so-slight, of hope!

Q: Is USB-OTG possible with the hardware of the N900?
A: It is possible, but would be extremely difficult to implement. So practically almost impossible but can be done.

javispedro

10-21-2009, 05:58 PM

Well, it seems that the same sysfs file used to enable host mode in N810 will at least do "something" in N900. Anyone willing to fry their N900 to test? :)

qole

10-21-2009, 06:12 PM

"fry" in what way? +5V to the wrong place, causing the CPU to melt?

javispedro

10-21-2009, 06:13 PM

Connecting self powered USB devices to it and watching :)

qole

10-21-2009, 06:15 PM

I'm asking, what are the realistic risks here? What could go wrong? "fry" is such a scary, nebulous word... what does it mean in this context?

(Yes, I'm thinking about it... How much would Nokia charge me for bricking a loaner device, I wonder?)

Texrat

10-21-2009, 06:18 PM

Connecting self powered USB devices to it and watching :)

This is what diodes are for. ;)

javispedro

10-21-2009, 06:19 PM

Well, I did fry my Palm T|X when I connected a self powered USB hub to it after having played a bit with the UDC controller registers. Up to this day I'm not exactly sure what happened.

Texrat

10-21-2009, 06:23 PM

Well, I did fry my Palm T|X when I connected a self powered USB hub to it after having played a bit with the UDC controller registers. Up to this day I'm not exactly sure what happened.

Right, and a diode (with proper orientation of course) blocks incoming voltage so that can be avoided. I've used them in DC logic circuits for that reason.

javispedro

10-21-2009, 06:25 PM

Right, and a diode (with proper orientation of course) blocks incoming voltage so that can be avoided.
Well, they did mention hw bugs .... :D

I also got a T|X RMA'd because instead of sucking power through USB it was powering up other (500mA) devices in the hub and heating considerably :rolleyes: . Diagnostic was "diode gone bad".

Texrat

10-21-2009, 06:31 PM

Well, they did mention hw bugs .... :D

I also got a T|X RMA'd because instead of sucking power through USB it was powering up other (500mA) devices in the hub and heating considerably :rolleyes: . Diagnostic was "diode gone bad".

I'd wager the diode wasn't spec'd right. Then again, I recall a former employer receiving truckloads of bad diodes that went into military avionics. Oops. Expensive recall.

qole

10-21-2009, 06:33 PM

Ok, so we'll need a diode. Check. What next? Anybody compiled the USB drivers yet? (drink!)

javispedro

10-21-2009, 06:45 PM

Anybody compiled the USB drivers yet?
This one is already in the N900 kernel, according to dmesg dump:
http://beaversource.oregonstate.edu/projects/cspfl/browser/trunk/linux-omap-2.6/drivers/usb/musb/musb_host.c?rev=34

qole

10-21-2009, 07:04 PM

jethro.itt

10-22-2009, 12:25 AM

Oh! A glimmer, ever-so-slight, of hope!

What is the primary obstacle here? Soldering skills? Ha! Check this out... (The large black rectangle on the bottom right corner is a SIM card holder. The red wire is extremely thin. Soldered without microscope or any other type of magnification.)

EDIT: This is not an N900, but another phone from a couple of years back, just as an example.

javispedro

10-22-2009, 06:16 AM

I'm more interested in these (http://beaversource.oregonstate.edu/projects/cspfl/browser/trunk/linux-omap-2.6/drivers/usb/host?rev=34) (especially the ehci and ohci ones) since someone was suggesting to me that we should try the same methods that were used on the 770 to get USB host working.

Well, you'd have to unload the musb ones, etc. etc. I'm more inclined to think they meant "same hardware mods/circuitry as on 770" more than same software.

allnameswereout

10-24-2009, 10:31 AM

ITU approves MicroUSB for universal phone charger standard. (http://www.itu.int/newsroom/press_releases/2009/49.html) So a successor of Nokia N900 would also contain MicroUSB for this purpose (and possibly lack the 2mm Nokia charger). USBv3 allows higher mA for charging but I don't know exactly, and it isn't rolled out yet anyway.

scaler

11-06-2009, 10:19 PM

Sorry to bring bad news, but it looks as though everyone is resigned to it already, judging by the lack of recent activity on this thread.

Nokia has published a flasher tool for Diablo and Fremantle (N900), as announced here: http://maemo.org/news/announcements/maemo_flasher-3-5_tool_final_for_fremantle_and_diablo_released/ .

Previous versions of the flasher tool included the options --enable-usb-host-mode and --disable-usb-host-mode. This version does not. I downloaded the package and read the Help.txt . The USB host options are not available for flasher-3.5 . This strongly suggests that a software method of enabling host mode is currently beyond the capability of Maemo engineers. That puts it beyond the capability of the rest of us too, I think.

There is just one grain of hope. Has anyone out there used R&D mode on the earlier tablets? I have never used it myself and do not care to try. There is something in the old wikis about using R&D mode as a way of entering host mode. Those references are obscure and ambiguous. They appear to say that host mode is automatically active when you are in R&D mode. On the other hand, they might just mean that you can use R&D mode to gain root, after which the "echo host" command would enable host mode on the earlier tablets.

My suspicion is that R&D mode does NOT include USB host mode on the N900. However, anyone willing to try can download flasher-3.5 from http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php and run it with the --enable-rd-mode option.

You will also need a power/data Y-cable to power the transceiver and a mini-to-micro adaptor, since the Y-cables usually come with a mini plug for a HDD enclosure.

pelago

11-07-2009, 04:40 PM

This strongly suggests that a software method of enabling host mode is currently beyond the capability of Maemo engineers.

I think it's fairer to say that they haven't been commissioned to do it, not that it's "beyond their capability".

Johnx

11-08-2009, 12:43 AM

That "enable usb host mode" was (AFAIK) aimed strictly at the 770, which could only be switched between gadget and host by the flasher. (Feel free to correct me).

Looking around in /sys yields lots of positive things, including a similar structure to the N8x0 (musb_hdrc). There's even a usb_host:usb_host1 folder hanging off of it. I played around briefly with some stuff in there and a USB-A female-female converter, but didn't have any luck yet.

-John

ashish

11-08-2009, 01:47 AM

scaler

11-08-2009, 03:42 PM

That "enable usb host mode" was (AFAIK) aimed strictly at the 770, which could only be switched between gadget and host by the flasher. (Feel free to correct me).
-John

It was generally believed that the 770 could only be switched by the flasher, until Fanoush explained what the --enable-usb-host-mode option does. See this post:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=44550&postcount=13 .

In brief, this is Fanoush's explanation:
By running flasher with that option, you reset input to the linuxrc, so that two things will happen differently at boot:
(1) additional modules are loaded (see the list of USB_HOST_MODULES in Fanoush's post);
(2) the "echo host" command is executed, instead of "echo peripheral".

As a result, the 770 boots in host mode instead of peripheral mode.

However, as Fanoush also points out, the user can load those same modules after booting in peripheral mode and can also execute the "echo host" command. There is no need to use the flasher.

A further step is needed to make host mode work on the 770, if it has booted in peripheral mode. ke-recv has to be restarted by running another command:
/etc/init.d/ke-recv restart
This apparently simulates a later stage of the boot, so that the Tablet behaves as though it had booted in host mode. (I do not understand what ke-recv is, but I can assure you that host mode works after restarting it and will not work otherwise.)

Unlike the activation by flasher, this method "by hand" does not change the operation of linuxrc, and the 770 boots in peripheral mode again the next time. Peripheral mode can also be obtained without reboot by unloading the extra modules, running the "echo peripheral" command and restarting ke-recv again.

In the list of USB_HOST_MODULES, ohci-hcd is the only one that absolutely MUST be inserted before running the "echo host" command. The other modules are drivers for peripheral devices and can be inserted later as needed. However, it is simpler to include them all in a script to activate host mode in one step (and similarly to use a script that will return the 770 to peripheral mode).

Like the N900, the 770 has an OTG controller that is disabled by missing out three connections: two for powering the transceiver and one for responding to grounding of the ID pin. Somehow, insertion of the ohci-hcd module fools the controller into behaving like an OHCI instead of OTG. Messages to that effect appear in dmesg. Grounding of the fifth pin is consequently not needed. That deals with one of the missing connections. Powering of the transceiver in host mode is done via Y-cable from an external power source.

There are obvious differences between the devices' USB handling, notably the N900's musb_hdrc compared with the 770's tahvo-usb. Nevertheless, the many parallels suggested a possibly fruitful avenue to explore. That is why qole was interested in ohci and ehci modules.

@javispedro: On the 770, there is no need to remove the tahvo-usb. Insertion of the ohci-hcd module overrules the permanently peripheral OTG operation. Nobody is saying that the same thing must work for the N900. As qole and I have said, this merely looked like a suggestive avenue to explore.

HOWEVER, if this well-travelled path could lead to host mode on the N900, it is hard to understand why Nokia did not incorporate it into their new flasher. It is not only users who are complaining about the lack of host mode: developers are upset as well. My apologies to the engineers for saying that a software route to host mode is currently beyond their capability. That was unwarranted. I should have said that it must be pretty darned hard. Which is actually the point I was trying to make.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket. Facts are facts, and suggestive facts are suggestive. The lack of a USB option in the latest flasher is a fact that I find highly suggestive - more so than I previously thought about the parallels between N900 and 770.

PS Apology to qole. He knows why.

allnameswereout

11-08-2009, 06:22 PM

AFAIK.. I talked to a Nokia representative at the N900 meetups and asked him multiple times and what he said was that at the time they would not get the certification for USB OTG alongwith the USB charging so they don't say so.Yeah, that was how it was with N810 too, but as you can see this situation is different because unlocking it doesn't work.

He also said that somebody from the community is working on it..Yeah, heard that before... :rolleyes: and who'd that be?

Lets not give people hope based on dubious claims...

ashish

11-08-2009, 11:36 PM

Lol.. well that gave me hopes too.. But I sure do hope it will work.. Else I'll be Bluetooth PANning with my N810 or something like that.. :/

Johnx

11-12-2009, 06:37 AM

@ashiah: Why not let the N810 be the host and use g_ether or g_file_storage on the N900?

@allnameswereout: I'll be surprised if we don't have USB host inside a month of release.

and to everyone who won't buy this if it doesn't have USB host: Don't buy this until someone proves USB host works. Caveat emptor.

-John

debernardis

11-13-2009, 11:55 AM

I have received a new Mobidapter from roalan.com, some days after an email which stated:Elan have informed me that some USB drives are not compatible with the Mobiadapter. They are sending me back the adapter along with a free USB drive which works with it. I will forward these back to you as soon as I receive it.

Of course, this completely defeats the scope of the device.

Together with the Mobidapter there was a 1 gigabyte USB stick.

Neither this stick nor my ones do work with my phones (e90, e51).

I can say now with enough confidence that the Mobidapter is a scam, and its seller (Elan, www.elandigitalsystems.com) has false claims on his site, i.e. that the Mobidapter can read " USB pens supported up to the maximum capacity of the host PDA or phone". Can't read even the one they sent me.

Don't buy it!

Matan

11-13-2009, 12:30 PM

Does the adapter have a battery? Most microsd slots probably don't provide enough power for a usb drive and the adapter. I expect you will have better luck either in SD slots that accept SDIO cards, or with externally powered usb storage devices.

Dave999

11-13-2009, 01:08 PM

hi. swedish readers of magazine mobil.se had a chat with klas ström. product manager in sweden. used google transaltor. Love the transaltion of his name. HAHAHA. epic... any way, whats your thoughts about this??? could it be true?

Daniel.: Hi, Does the N900 is super intresant, but have some questions. In this era interjuv on mobil.se you mentioned that N900 has a digital compass, is it? (Augmented Reality could drive possible;)) .. FM radio was not included in the Spec but were in cell phone only!. Another feature that is intresant is USB host, which is N810. The number of grains of gold have not been shown yet? Fråga2: Maemo device / software will be sold in OVI Store, and will be largely open source. But what about larger companies such as EA, they will sell / develop games for N900, have read that there are problems with DRM protection, or is this simply make music? Can we expect more games in the same class of Bounce? Mao will be able to buy software / games on OVI Store.

McBeath: Hi, Earlier it was planned Magno feet but unfortunately it was taken away so it does not have a digital compass. However, it will be good GPS functions with directions to the N900. Both FM radio and USB Host goes to refuel down through beta-apps directory. FM Transmitter is the default. There are many other gold nuggets. Nintendo Wii controller you can connect to the N900 and use the SNES emulator, BT support for mouse and keyboard or USB then if you want. Lots of other features and so many games, too. As I said before, you'll easily be able to see the available

debernardis

11-13-2009, 02:53 PM

Matan

11-13-2009, 03:34 PM

I do not expect a hub to work - the software (firmware) on the device needs to explicitly support a hub, which such a device has no real reason to support (of course, it might support it for the simple reason that they used pre existing software that has hub support).. Don't you have a powered USB-HD enclosure?

pelago

11-13-2009, 06:29 PM

hi. swedish readers of magazine mobil.se had a chat with klas ström. product manager in sweden. used google transaltor.

Can you link to the article, and maybe someone can translate it better? That Google translation is hard to understand.

nymajoak

11-13-2009, 07:25 PM

Can you link to the article, and maybe someone can translate it better? That Google translation is hard to understand.

Daniel: Hi. I think the N900 is really interesting, but have a couple of questions. In an interview here on mobil.se you mentioned that N900 has digital compass. Does it? (Augmented reality would then be possible ). FM radio wasn't in the speficication but was in the phone anyway! Another feature which is interesting is USB host like the N810 has. Does it have any other gems which haven't been shown yet? Question 2: Maemo Apps/programs will be sold in Ovi Store, and will to a great extent be opensource. But what about larger companies like EA will they sell/develop games for N900? Have read that there are problems with DRM protection or does that only apply to music? Can we expect more games in the same class as Bounce? In other words will you be able to buy programs/games in Ovi store?

Klas Ström: Hi, Before there were plans for magnetometer but unfortunatelly it was removed so it does not have a digital compass. Good GPS features with directions will however come to N900. Both FM radio and USB Host are downloadable via the beta-apps catalog. FM transmitter is included by default. There are many other gems. Nintendo Wii controller which you can connect to N900 and use for the sNES emulator, BT support for mouse and keyboard or USB then if you like. A lot of other fearures and yes several games as well. Like I answered before you will easily be able to see available applications either via Ovi Store or the application manager in the N900.

Grammar and other rmistakes reflect grammar and mistakes in the original text. :P

twoboxen

11-13-2009, 09:56 PM

If this is correct, wouldn't we be able to see some sort of usb host package in extras-devel?

I found the "usbcontrol" package in extras-devel. Not sure if that is actively being tried on the n900 or if it was some sort of auto-build/port from os2008 without trying it.

usbcontrol on OS2008 (http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/usbcontrol/)

Maybe this was the package to which the guy was referring? It might not even work on the n900. Can anyone with a (pre)production device try it out and let us know?

sarahn

11-14-2009, 04:32 AM

pelago

11-14-2009, 10:38 AM

I found the "usbcontrol" package in extras-devel.

I'm pretty sure that it was the guy found and just assumed it would work, which it doesn't. It should probably be removed, really!

scaler

11-15-2009, 07:38 PM

FWIW I literally cut power between the n800 and a powered hub. A keyboard connected to the powered hub worked with the n800. My laptop found the keyboard but got confused and kept disconnecting / reconnecting the keyboard.

If the USB charging is the only issue, that may be a workaround. I would not be surprised if there were also USB driver issues.

If you try this remember to only cut power, not ground. There are pinouts / descriptions of the different wire colors elsewhere online.

Could you give more detail of your wiring? Specifically, is the ID pin grounded? If so, you have switched the 800 into host mode. One of the problems with the N900 is that host mode is not achieved by grounding the ID pin. N900 lacks internal wiring to register the ID signal, according to reports from Nokia.

Even before that became known, qole had tested (1) grounding of the ID pin and (2) "echo host" command. Neither put the N900 into host mode.

USB charging would be a nuisance for long periods of host operation, but it is a minor problem. The major problem is to find a way of putting the N900 into host mode in the first place.

qole

11-15-2009, 09:41 PM

I'm not sure if I really tested grounding the ID pin. I only have an N800, and I used the USB OTG (mini-B) host adapter from jolouis (which has the ID pin grounded) along with a mini-B to micro-B adapter. I assumed that would work to conclusively test the N900's hardware USB host capability.

But I later tried the same set-up with a friend's N810 and discovered that it didn't put his N810 into host mode, either.

By the way, transferring files via WiFi to/from the N900 has been pretty quick and painless. The networking speed on the N900 is much improved over the NITs. The most common method I've used for transferring files has been simply attaching the file to an e-mail. That is really quite a painless solution.

As for other devices, I have managed to get my Stowaway BT keyboard to work with the N900. I haven't tried a mouse yet, since I can't find an inexpensive BT mouse ( < $40 ) anywhere.

Matan

11-16-2009, 04:20 AM

I'm not sure if I really tested grounding the ID pin. I only have an N800, and I used the USB OTG (mini-B) host adapter from jolouis (which has the ID pin grounded) along with a mini-B to micro-B adapter. I assumed that would work to conclusively test the N900's hardware USB host capability.

But I later tried the same set-up with a friend's N810 and discovered that it didn't put his N810 into host mode, either.

The same setup (mini to micro + mini OTG adapter) works for me on N810. It does change the N810 automatically to host mode.

By the way, transferring files via WiFi to/from the N900 has been pretty quick and painless. The networking speed on the N900 is much improved over the NITs. The most common method I've used for transferring files has been simply attaching the file to an e-mail. That is really quite a painless solution.

It is not a solution if you are in a classroom and you want to give a file to a friend that only has a usb flash drive.

It is not a painless solution if you want to transfer a 500MB file and your ADSL connection has 150Kbit/s upload.

It is not a solution if you want to transfer files to your MP3 player.

A computer needs USB host functionality.