N900 will not allow USB OTG! [Archive] - maemo.org

debernardis

09-21-2009, 12:40 AM

This is a brand new thread to discuss (and hopefully find a workaround) for the *fact* that the N900 does not allow USB OTG mode at the hardware level.

Here (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=330352&postcount=339) Quim Gil firstly admits this problem (it was Sept 20th):

The N900 doesn't support USB host mode and the limitation comes at hardware level. Igor Stoppa and myself provide more details at http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020830.html.

...which is detailed here (http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020830.html):

On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 20:44 +0200, Gil Quim (Nokia-D/Helsinki) wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > > > I plan to create a proposal for the push n900[1] and I plan to
> use the
> > > > usb port. I have the following question.
> > > > When the device is in usb-host mode it should of course provide
> power does
> > > > it? Is it possible to charge the device while it's in usb-host
> mode?
>
> The N900 comes without USB host mode. When I asked I was told that the
> limitation comes at hardware level.

I can confirm this. The most reasonable setup would have been to provide
the A connector, but only gadget mode working forthe sales release, then
in a SW update to provide full spectrum support.

Then enters the USB certification with all its mass of quite often
bizantine, obsolete and plain braindead requirements.

One of them being that the certification with A connector can be passed
only if full functionality is provided by the SW.

In this case I propose that complaints are directed to the USB
consortium. I have really come to doubt that it's actually protecting
the consumers' interests in nowadays scenario.

> The reason for this decision was the complexity of providing support
> for charging, PC connectivity and USB OTG efficiently through the same
> Micro USB port within the project deadlines.

Add to that several HW bugs that were discovered during the development
and needed workarounds.

> We needed to make choices and the decision was to sacrify USB OTG and
> concentrate on the essential use cases of charging and connecting to
> the PC, bringing the N900 to the market in its due time.

Although noone really liked the choice we had to make. We do use our
products and as consumers we are aware of the limitations sometimes we
have to apply.

--

Cheers, Igor

---

Igor Stoppa
Maemo Software - Nokia Devices R&D - Helsinki

Is there a possibility for a software-only solution?

Or, what external hardware could solve the basic problem of - at least - connecting a usb flash/hd/whatever memory to the n900?

Please discuss.

Thesandlord

09-21-2009, 12:45 AM

Seems like there is not USB OTG. However, this is quite similar to the n800 and the 770.

"only if full functionality is provided by the SW"

What does that mean? Does the actual hardware support USB host like the N810 and N800? Is a software switch enough to change it to host mode?

qole

09-21-2009, 12:51 AM

The word from Nokia seems pretty definitive, guys. You're going to have to use Bluetooth or Wifi or some other protocol (infrared?) to communicate with external devices.

debernardis

09-21-2009, 12:53 AM

Do you know of external bluetooth/wifi/telepathic readers for usb sticks?

sachin007

09-21-2009, 01:02 AM

So is there any mobile device which charges via the usb and still allows usb host mode?

qole

09-21-2009, 01:06 AM

Do you know of external bluetooth/wifi/telepathic readers for usb sticks?

No. But I know you can get small USB microSD card readers. Here's one (http://http://ncix.com/products/?sku=18442&vpn=NG-TFCR-B) for the price of a Starbucks latte from a store near me.

You buy a microSD card, put it in the reader, and use it as a USB stick on computers everywhere you go.

When you want to take things from the USB stick and put them on your N900, you can pop off the back of the device, pop in the microSD card, and read the data (copy it to the internal 32 GB if you need the slot again).

No, it's not ideal. But it will do.

I do most of my file transfer to/from my mobile devices via sftp these days, anyway.

debernardis

09-21-2009, 01:12 AM

debernardis

09-21-2009, 01:15 AM

Mobidapter

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/backend/phpThumb/phpThumb.php?wl=200&wp=100&src=/home/allabout/public_html/reviews/images/mobidapter1.jpg

Ugly as hell, but might work?

http://mobile.allaboutsymbian.com/reviews/item/Mobidapter.php

qgil

09-21-2009, 01:16 AM

So is there any mobile device which charges via the usb and still allows usb host mode?

"via the Micro-USB", to be more precise.

Following with some reactions in the N900 Specifications thread:

There is no doubt that most users (even most Maemo target users) would prefer saving cables and having one single standard interface for charging over USB OTG.

Note that a separate charging port doesn't only mean more cables, but also more volume and complexity in the design of the device. If you think "it's only a small slot!" is because you (like me) are not really into engineering mobile hardware.

You can't connect a camera in host mode, but the N900 comes with a good camera. The use case is still relevant but is not as heavy as in previous Maemo devices.

You can't connect a hard drive in host mode, but the N900 comes with a big internal memory expandable with a MicroSD card. The use case is still relevant but is not as heavy as in previous Maemo devices.

USB OTG is in our radar for future releases, yes. Too soon to make an official commitment though.

vkv.raju

09-21-2009, 01:20 AM

Yes that's the case when you have to move files from one machine to another.

The other also important and frequent use case is when you're on the move and you *have* to read a file from a usb thumb drive someone's handing you. Or write. This happened to me several times, with perfect response from my n810 tablet.

How can we solve that?

You echo my concerns. Exactly, how about when on the move? Also, not everyone's router support USB drives :(:mad:

I have used this feature and liked that on my N800.

vkv.raju

09-21-2009, 01:25 AM

"via the Micro-USB", to be more precise.

Following with some reactions in the N900 Specifications thread:

There is no doubt that most users (even most Maemo target users) would prefer saving cables and having one single standard interface for charging over USB OTG.

Note that a separate charging port doesn't only mean more cables, but also more volume and complexity in the design of the device. If you think "it's only a small slot!" is because you (like me) are not really into engineering mobile hardware.

You can't connect a camera in host mode, but the N900 comes with a good camera. The use case is still relevant but is not as heavy as in previous Maemo devices.

You can't connect a hard drive in host mode, but the N900 comes with a big internal memory expandable with a MicroSD card. The use case is still relevant but is not as heavy as in previous Maemo devices.

USB OTG is in our radar for future releases, yes. Too soon to make an official commitment though.

Thats what I thought too and have mentioned here http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31005&page=36 (#355)

Nokia is defining an upgrade path. Don't like!

Otaku

09-21-2009, 01:27 AM

Mobidapter

IIRC, I think that won't work on the n900 because the n900 has an internal connector inside the case where you insert the microSD, not an externally-accessible slot. So it seems there's no way to connect the bulky Mobidapter.

UCOMM

09-21-2009, 01:50 AM

Thats what I thought too and have mentioned here http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31005&page=36 (#355)

Nokia is defining an upgrade path. Don't like!

every company has an upgrade path, nokias mistake was in letting the avg person see that

bocaJ

09-21-2009, 01:51 AM

IIRC, I think that won't work on the n900 because the n900 has an internal connector inside the case where you insert the microSD, not an externally-accessible slot. So it seems there's no way to connect the bulky Mobidapter.

The previous QA said that it was hot-swapable, so while you might have to take off the back-plate, wouldn't you still be able to use this?

Also, does anyone know if there's some sort of BT to USB adapter?

icebox

09-21-2009, 01:55 AM

Hm, I was convinced that the n900 despite the reserve on battery life is the best hacker device out there... That idea just went out the window...

I was prepared to accept a cut back in screen size, size, battery life just not on features over my old n800.

OTOH maybe we could solder our own host usb port ?

debernardis

09-21-2009, 01:56 AM

Otaku

09-21-2009, 02:01 AM

Good point, but in practice, if someone asks me to read a USB stick, it would be a bit awkward to pop the back plate of the phone, stick in the Mobidapter and the USB stick, and somehow hold the device so the screen is visible without the Mobidapter falling out and damaging the connector in the process. What I could imagine working is if you jury-rigged a ribbon cable connector from the Mobidapter that could then be fed into the n900 internal connector. Still would look pretty Frankenstein-ish, though.

The idea of a BT to USB adapter, if one exists, sounds much better.

sachin007

09-21-2009, 02:01 AM

"

USB OTG is in our radar for future releases, yes. Too soon to make an official commitment though.

When you mean future releases, do you mean hardware or software releases? If you mean software then i would assume the community can come up with something similar?

debernardis

09-21-2009, 02:03 AM

The microsd slot seems unfit for the mobidapter

http://www.mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/rx51-n900/pic25.jpg

Unless you hack some kind of flat cable from the mobidapter to a dummy microsd to fit in the slot.

qole

09-21-2009, 02:03 AM

EDIT: That's eerie, that debernardis and I would post the same picture at the same time, with the same comment following it!

Here's a pic of the internal microSD slot from the infamous mobile-review first look article (http://www.mobile-review.com/review/nokia-rx51-n900-en.shtml):

http://www.mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/rx51-n900/pic25.jpg

We'll have to wait for craves1 to build us some kind of adapter thing, I guess... An adapter that goes in the microSD slot with a cable that snakes out of the case, with a plug for an external mobidapter-type device.

Otaku

09-21-2009, 02:04 AM

I don't know which position has the microsd slot on the n900 but imho the mobidapter could be used only if the port is on a side of the device, otherwise there would be no space to make it enter inside.

Anyone with the real thing, please confirm if the Mobidapter plunge could be inserted, or is the slot recessed and can't be reached?

The internal card connector position is shown here:

http://mynokiablog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/memocar.jpg?w=550&h=412

In case a direct image link doesn't work, the corresponding article is here: http://mynokiablog.com/2009/09/14/nokia-n900-review-first-impressions-of-nokias-mobile-computer-hardware-preview-live-pics-inside/

EDIT: Sorry, I'm on a slow connection - I see that others already posted this information :)

icebox

09-21-2009, 02:13 AM

qole

09-21-2009, 02:33 AM

Just had a thought. There's a compact USB to BT adapter that most of us already have: our current NITs.

If this issue is the only thing keeping you from leaving the laptop at the office, then I suggest throwing your n8x0 and your OTG adapter in your briefcase for just such situations.

Make sure your Maemo devices are already paired and copy the data over BT.

Someone needs to write a Diablo app for this purpose!

debernardis

09-21-2009, 02:45 AM

Make sure your Maemo devices are already paired and copy the data over BT.

Someone needs to write a Diablo app for this purpose!

sshfs is your friend? ;)

Though I'd LOVE to bring less stuff with me and still be ready for anything :cool:

qobi

09-21-2009, 02:46 AM

Will the N900 (hardware and software) support using it as a 3G modem for a laptop, tethering to the laptop by USB? by WiFi? by bluetooth? USB and/or WiFi is prefered over bluetooth since they support higher bandwidth and (perhaps) lower latency. (I tether my v9m to my laptop over USB and bluetooth and get 3G. I'd like to replace it with an N900.)

Otaku

09-21-2009, 03:23 AM

range

09-21-2009, 03:28 AM

If this issue is the only thing keeping you from leaving the laptop at the office, then I suggest throwing your n8x0 and your OTG adapter in your briefcase for just such situations.

Make sure your Maemo devices are already paired and copy the data over BT.

That sounds painfully slow if you want to copy more than one or two word documents.

debernardis

09-21-2009, 03:33 AM

As long as we're considering solutions that require an extra device, this device can do file transfers between two USB mass storage devices: http://reviews.cnet.com/hubs/sima-hitch-usb-transfer/4505-3335_7-31997849.html

The article is from 2006 so there may be newer, smaller versions out by now.

Quite expensive - Qole's suggestion is cheaper :)

http://www.amazon.com/Sima-USB-101-Digital-Transfer-System/dp/B000F9LRYY/sr=8-1/qid=1161203435/ref=p

tso

09-21-2009, 03:38 AM

in this day and age, i am surprised that there is no adapter made that does usb to bluetooth and runs of a AA or two...

vkv.raju

09-21-2009, 03:46 AM

in this day and age, i am surprised that there is no adapter made that does usb to bluetooth and runs of a AA or two...

Huge file transfers over bluetooth can be slower! Also, that device may not be even cheap! But again, I may take that as a solution, though not happily!

debernardis

09-21-2009, 03:47 AM

Why not wi-fi ad-hoc networking between the n900 and the n8xx instead that bluetooth?

lma

09-21-2009, 03:54 AM

That would also work, but drain the battery a lot more than bluetooth (no power saving in ad-hoc mode).

JayOnThaBeat

09-21-2009, 03:58 AM

A mobile computer should have usb host.

*sticking with my N810*

debernardis

09-21-2009, 04:08 AM

That would also work, but drain the battery a lot more than bluetooth (no power saving in ad-hoc mode).

It would be on just for the time of accessing those files on the usb stick, so hopefully the drainage would be minimal.

All these workarounds are kludgy at best.

Damn'... I need a real n900 to convince it (with the use of force if necessary) to do host mode :)

quingu

09-21-2009, 04:15 AM

That Pandora I ordered in march and canceled last week...

it's laughing and pointing at me... swinging its full-size usb plug-equipped butt...

tso

09-21-2009, 04:45 AM

Why not wi-fi ad-hoc networking between the n900 and the n8xx instead that bluetooth?

because wifi on its own is just a carrier of protocols?

bluetooth on the other hand already has protocols for file transfers built in, and more.

oh, and was there not talk about using a wifi radio to carry bluetooth traffic when speed was really important?

how about this:
take the mifi variant that has a micro-SD slot, replace with (or add alongside) a full size USB-A host port and bluetooth over wifi...

icebox

09-21-2009, 04:58 AM

no usb host also means no external usb wireless stick, no usb ethernet adapter, no usb keyboard, no cf cardreader and that's harder to fix ...

debernardis

09-21-2009, 05:04 AM

I'd like to understand why exactly the hardware doesn't allow otg.
Not that I'm sure I have neurons enough to cope... But if somebody is going to explain I'd be grateful.

flareup

09-21-2009, 05:18 AM

A mobile computer should have usb host.

*sticking with my N810*

Absolutely!

this is a PHONE, not a mobile computer, nor a continuation of the NIT line.

accept it everybody! I have. sticking with 810 til something with form factor appears that substantially upgrades it in performance.

tso

09-21-2009, 05:18 AM

otg is one thing, true host is another...

tso

09-21-2009, 05:22 AM

Absolutely!

this is a PHONE, not a mobile computer, nor a continuation of the NIT line.

accept it everybody! I have. sticking with 810 til something with form factor appears that substantially upgrades it in performance.

so far that pandora may be ones best bet, even if its a dark horse...

maybe a smartq with cortex internals could do it, but i have not heard of such a thing.

the android powered archos claims usb host, but that seems to be via a optional dock/addon, not thru the micro-usb on its side...

i fear the designers are all to indoctrinated about having a pc to do the heavy file work, with all the rest orbiting around it...

hell, that may also be why there is a cry for a "desktop" os on pocketable devices, before they are "true" computers in ones pocket. As if the os magically makes the hardware "desktop" grade...

andree

09-21-2009, 05:25 AM

I was looking forward to buy n900 asap - when it's in stores.. One of the main reasons was the usb-otg feature, so this would be a great dissapointment - I wanted to be able to use usb-to-ethernet dongle...

However, as I understand the situation, the usb commitee didn't approve usage of micro-ab for some reason. But that doesn't have to mean that the hardware doesn't allow this - I've read somewhere that in order to get the OTG aproval, device has to also contain some supporting software (which n900 obviously doesn't, as host mode isn't supported officially).

From what I've read, the OMAP 3430 (often) comes with the TWL4030 chip, which serves power management (among other purposes), and allows usb-otg.. In case nokia didn't do some dirty tricks there (like unsoldering something), the functionality still could be there. According to discussion here

http://translate.google.cz/translate?hl=cs&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matkapuhelininfo.com%2Fkeskuste lu%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D1058152020

there is a kernel module for wtl4030, so they probably really use the chip...

The only question left is only, whether the omap3430 is implemented in a standard way. In this case, imho, the OTG could still work - though probably only by using a non-standard usb cable...

icebox

09-21-2009, 05:30 AM

IMHO you only solder and provide traces for what you use & need. There are enough traces and solder points in such a small device. When they say hardware level not supported I understand that is something you can't hack away with software...
Maybe some weird cables a la 770 could save the day but I wouldn't put my money on it...
I for one I want usb otg too much to spend 500e to find out if I can enable it ...

tso

09-21-2009, 05:30 AM

either i am confused, or someone else is. I could have sworn that there is a difference between true usb host mode and usb OTG mode...

icebox

09-21-2009, 05:38 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go

As I see it USB OTG is a special kind of usb host...

I understand mainly this:

USB OTG devices are backward-compatible with USB 2.0 and will behave as standard USB Hosts or Devices when connected to standard (non-OTG) USB devices. The main exception is that OTG hosts are only required to provide a small amount of power, which may not be enough to connect to a non-OTG peripheral, although a powered USB hub may sidestep the issue if supported.

Andre Klapper

09-21-2009, 05:48 AM

sounds[/I] like we are not going to be able to connect usb devices to the N900, like flash drives and psp's.

What about waiting for the final release, gentlemen? :-)

quingu

09-21-2009, 06:25 AM

Please help me to get one thing straight.

OF COURSE there will be zero support from Nokia for usb host mode on the n900. Any announcement of that kind would result in a storm of outraged NIT newcomers who expected a fully USB capable phone and wouldn't know about the host-mode hacks.

So NO ONE from Nokia would ever admit that usb host mode would be possible.

Now let's do a quick reality check.
The N810 has exactly the same USB OTG setup as the n900 (without usb charging). USB host mode works (http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/kate-alholas-forum-nokia-blog/2008/01/21/usb-on-the-go), with a simple modified usb cable.

Both the 770 and the n800 had the option to enter usb host mode. The 770 doesn't even have a clean way of powering external devices and you have to use the power injection hack.

None of the former NITs have a clean, out-of-the-box way of enabling USB host mode, be it for OTG or whatever.

The n900 is much more marketed towards power users and away from hackers. Any announcement of it being possibly able of usb host mode is far less likely.

Now here comes the catch.
USB OTG is quite complicated.
I have read Quim Gil's announcement and the linked technical discussion a few times. As I understand it, there is no hardware support for USB OTG host mode. Which is a different kind of animal than general USB host mode (read: supplying power, negotiating power supply and whatnot).

Personally, i'd have loved being able to plug in a usb stick just using a small adapter. But I have no problem using a little blackbox with power injection.

So what really itches me is: is there a magical command you can enter in xterm and kick the n900 into host mode?

icebox

09-21-2009, 06:29 AM

n8x0 was not announced as being hardware incompatible with host mode.

Yes you need a special adapter or cable for it, in order to kick into host mode automatically, if you don't have one you simply manually set the device into host mode. I'm afraid that's not the same as missing hardware support ...

zerojay

09-21-2009, 06:49 AM

icebox

09-21-2009, 06:56 AM

I don't think I've ever even once used host mode or needed OTG at any point during my internet tablet use, and as Quim said, a lot of what the N900 has already negates the need for OTG/host mode in certain use cases.

So to those of you who are mourning the missing OTG/host mode, what were your day-to-day use cases where you needed them? What were you doing with your previous tablets and host mode?

Knowing the resourcefulness of the NIT community, I'm sure we can figure out alternative ways to make your use cases still work.

Easily swap files with colleagues / students when I was in school, use a usb ethernet adapter to connect to wired networks, usb external harddrive for the holliday. I started working with microcontrollers that know usb and want to explore this dirrection. Compact flash cardreader in order to download pictures from my dslr, s10sh for remote controlling my Canon dSLR

I mourn the loss of a feature that made the device more hackable. Yes you can use some device to copy files from thumbdrives, you can use a portable AP for wired networks, you can use cf-sd-microsd adapter in my canon camera, find another remote for it, 32Gb negates the need for an external harddrive and so on. But you'll end up with a bigger and more hairy mess of accessories to replace OTG. Much bigger bag than n800+e71+otg cable

iskarion

09-21-2009, 06:58 AM

Well, at least Mini A/B/AB ports have exactly the same wiring and electrical specs. The main difference is the form factor and that devices with AB ports have to support host/device auto detection via electrical resistance on pin 4.

So with a custom (non-standard) USB cable AND proper software/driver support pretty much any device with a mini USB A port a can act as a USB host.

Only limitation is, that power supply for connected USB devices is not guaranteed and you have no auto/host detection.

So I don't see why this shouldn't work with the N900, even if this means building a custom adapter (AB port on one end, A on the other).
Of course software support is then another thing.

icebox

09-21-2009, 07:07 AM

If there's no chip talking host on the end of that electricity no driver will fix that.

attila77

09-21-2009, 07:12 AM

So to those of you who are mourning the missing OTG/host mode, what were your day-to-day use cases where you needed them? What were you doing with your previous tablets and host mode?

I quite regularly hook it up to my 750GB USB enclosure. Now, before anyone jumps to conclusions, I don't keep this for music/movies. I use it to copy RAW images/footage from my camera to the enclosure (when card full, swap microSDs in cam and in N810, copy to enclosure via USB, while shooting on the other card). With the internal 32GB I don't gain anything, I might just as well buy another SD card. I would have liked to use gphoto2, but that's a no-go for other reasons.

The second USB peripheral I use quite often is an USB2Serial, for serial console, device control and connecting some ancient landline modems I have to use (yes, there are places on Earth where that is your only connectivity :) ).

vkv.raju

09-21-2009, 07:15 AM

quingu

09-21-2009, 09:00 AM

If I am able to connect a USB thumb drive to my N900 via an adaptor then I am fine. Is this what you meant? Or would I need to carry a self-powered USB hub too for this?

word is you can do neither. but that's what we are about to find out.

talmage

09-21-2009, 09:03 AM

You can't connect a camera in host mode, but the N900 comes with a good camera. The use case is still relevant but is not as heavy as in previous Maemo devices.

That's what I do when I travel, so I don't need to bring a laptop. I have a couple of nice cameras. I use my N800 in host mode to copy pictures from each camera into the external SD card. I use Canola and/or Quiver to look at my pictures and show them to my traveling companions.

USB OTG is in our radar for future releases, yes. Too soon to make an official commitment though.

So now I have to rethink my N900 pre-order. Do I keep it? If so, how do I manage my pictures on travel? Buy more SD cards and forget about backups? Bring along my N800? Bring along a USB flash reader and pop into Internet cafes once in a while to make backups? I guess that's the most pleasant solution although none of them are optimal.

------ Edit September 22, 2009-----

Well, sir, I thought about it. I'm keeping my pre-order because the N900 seems so useful. It's very nearly the phone I've wanted for at least five years.

I'll find a way to copy my pictures into it when I travel.

The cafe solution has charm. A USB flash dongle isn't that expensive or heavy.
Carrying an N800 doubles the weight of the computing devices but allows me to copy pictures and lend a computer to a friend.

deadmalc

09-21-2009, 09:08 AM

I quite regularly hook it up to my 750GB USB enclosure. Now, before anyone jumps to conclusions, I don't keep this for music/movies. I use it to copy RAW images/footage from my camera to the enclosure (when card full, swap microSDs in cam and in N810, copy to enclosure via USB, while shooting on the other card). With the internal 32GB I don't gain anything, I might just as well buy another SD card. I would have liked to use gphoto2, but that's a no-go for other reasons.

The second USB peripheral I use quite often is an USB2Serial, for serial console, device control and connecting some ancient landline modems I have to use (yes, there are places on Earth where that is your only connectivity :) ).

Not sure whether you can get a bluetooth to usb, given the speed differentials not sure whether you would ever want to but..

Serial Bluetooth....
http://www.expansys.com/d.aspx?i=137601

Carman relies on a serial bluetooth for it's data so that's definately do-able

Kozzi

09-21-2009, 09:15 AM

Do I keep it? If so, how do I manage my pictures on travel? Buy more SD cards and forget about backups? Bring along my N800? Bring along a USB flash reader and pop into Internet cafes once in a while to make backups? I guess that's the most pleasant solution although none of them are optimal.

Just a suggestion: or buy microSdhc cards and use adapter with it. This way after taking pictures you can just pop out the microsd and put it into N900.

Mara

09-21-2009, 09:22 AM

I have been thinking why the N900 might be different beast than the N8x0 in regards to USB host mode. One reason may be the fact that the N900 charges from the USB port. If you think about this: When you turn on host mode you turn on +5V supply to inject power to the USB +5V line. This is the same line than the battery charger takes its input power... so what may happen that by enabling host mode you also make the N900 think it is connected to a charger, which obviously is not the case.

Of course there may/can be a workaround for this, such as a status signal from USB host hardware telling charger not to turn on if host mode was selected, but I'm wondering if the N900 was designed with that in mind...

Other than that, I'm pretty sure the USB controller inside N900 does support OTG, but hardware limitations (like my example) may be the reason host functionality has been permanently disabled.

Of course just a speculation on my part. I do not have any information about the N900 hardware design.

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 09:32 AM

to be sincere, this missing feature turned a light off in my head.. a once-in-a-long-time money sacrifice (for a student 600€ is much for just a "phone"/toy) simply because it could do so much more; I was looking forward to attach it to my ethernet modem, pass on it photos from my (good) digital camera, to attach it to my 1 TB external HD, to attach USB flash drives at it, and who knows what more.
now that money may stay in my pocket for a year or two more...
way early to say "i'll buy it" or not, i would probably wait a month anyway, but in the cases of the N97 and Omnia HD, it were some slight missing features which discouraged the purchase (hw power & qwerty keyb; at the time Maemo couldn't phone, now I'd add the OS).

USB OTG is in our radar for future releases, yes. Too soon to make an official commitment though.
this, plus the "5 step plan" of maemo devices, plus the 1 year waiting for the perfect device tradeoff go against the purchase too... :p
probably it's a feeling more people share, for the moment it's still early, lets see how it evolves... anyway it wasn't smart to mention that "5 step plan" from Nokia IMO, and to let people speculate about USB host/OTG for quite some time without an earlier official denial (still don't know how official it is (if)).

now, looking at that hardware microUSB port, anybody expert about this stuff? what I ask myself is what's the phisical difference between the N810 port and the N900 port, apart from the "N900 power-in thing". If a ad-hoc cable and software can change the situation, this whole discussion is pretty pointless. The previous tablets needed some hacking too, and ad-hoc cables would soon appear in online Chinese shops...
(maybe we need one of the N900 hardware designers, or the final probuct in some expert's hands.. :/)

of the so far proposed alternatives none is as good IMO, especially the extra 100+ $/€ solutions....

and thanks for this whole discussion; better now than too late.

quingu

09-21-2009, 09:33 AM

having to pop open the backplate and fumbling with that microsd bay door everytime you want to exchange data would stress the hardware big time. microsd cards are usually not rated for flash leveling but times of ejection before they will break.
also, most people with better cameras already spent a nice sum on expensive sd or cf cards. having to buy even more, slower flash cards instead of just plugging a cable into both devices will be a biq inconvenience.

of course i can buy a bluetooth keyboard, mouse, gamepad and whatnot for at least double the price of a similar usb variant.

of course i can use the cinch video out cable with 480i instead of the possible 1080p of an usb-to-dvi adapter.

of course i could buy a 20-pack of microsd cards instead of bringing my portable hard drive along.

but, you know what? i could also wait and buy A DIFFERENT DEVICE that supports usb host mode.

mykenyc

09-21-2009, 09:52 AM

i can understand the concern for most people but i bought the n95 which had none of these features at all for near 650 and loved it. This at the end of the day is a phone yet labeled a mobile computer which i can understand the need for OTG. I'm still getting the N900 for the simple fact minus the OTG mix up this phone still have and does everything i need that no other phone on the market can do yet. Maybe when the Archos phone come out that will be another story but time will tell.

I love this community, the people who take the time out to adhere to the community on a day-to-day basis and for that alone i will cough up 650 (like i said if you don't got it you don't got it life is tough but 650 won't hurt my pockets).

I can only name a few instances in a year i would actually need USB OTG on a basis but not on a day-to-day basis. So this will not hurt me for the simple fact my school have a web environment where students can swap out files.

As far as the whole 5 step thing what I'm going to do is since we should see another device in a year i decided to divide 600 dollars in a year which of course is 50 dollars a month i will put to the side for the next big device. Also i will sell the N900 and use the difference so in a since it will be a upgrade but won't dint a pinch of my pockets cause who knows if i have the money then lol.

sondjata

09-21-2009, 10:01 AM

So I won't be able to use my external USB keyboard with this.

AnimalMind

09-21-2009, 10:01 AM

deadmalc

09-21-2009, 10:05 AM

Question:

Sorry for the newbness, but what is it that we will all be missing out by not have USB-OTG (On-The-Go) with the N900?

Will it not be able to b used as a harddrive via usb cable to computer? Will it not charge with USB from computer?

Thanks

It will charge with USB from computer and it can be used as a hard drive, it's the other way round it won't work.
i.e. you can't connect devices to it, but you can connect it to a PC etc.

sondjata

09-21-2009, 10:06 AM

and that USB control software will be useless.

AnimalMind

09-21-2009, 10:06 AM

That makes perfect sense deadmalc! Thanks for the heads up..

This is a huge bummer

UCOMM

09-21-2009, 10:13 AM

this, plus the "5 step plan" of maemo devices, plus the 1 year waiting for the perfect device tradeoff go against the purchase too... :p

don't even think for a moment that maemo will just stop at step 5

there will be something better than step 5, the ultimate phone

i'd suggest waiting for that

vkv.raju

09-21-2009, 10:29 AM

Now I am forced to consider that 4th step statement seriously. I have also started to think about my pre-order now with Amazon. Think, will wait for few more days to see anymore NASTY surprises before I commit to any action.

It is only once in a few years that I can afford such a costly device. And I want to make a fine decision for my money.

I truly am disappointed for this. My Love for Maemo and this community still intact though.

joppu

09-21-2009, 10:31 AM

So it's 100% positive that it's a unhackable hardware fault, not just "not officially supported" -thing?

magog

09-21-2009, 10:35 AM

I wonder how bluetooth keyboards perform with the n900? On my n810, I'm back to using a USB keyboard, because the BT keyboard was so slow.

I'm a moderately fast typist (80wpm), and with my BT keyboard I would literally type a line of text in vim and then wait for the characters to appear on the screen. My USB keyboard is a bit laggy, but much better.

BT keyboards are obviously more convenient than USB because they're smaller and they don't have the huge cumbersome cable. If they were as fast as USB keyboards, I'd probably use them.

Except, of course, that you're not supposed to use BT keyboards on airplanes, and that sucks.

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 10:36 AM

don't even think for a moment that maemo will just stop at step 5

there will be something better than step 5, the ultimate phone

i'd suggest waiting for that
haha, i know... :D

i wasn't thinking that "step 5" is the last one, but this process gives me a bit the idea of (software example): Alpha (N770 - step 1), Beta1 (step 2), Beta2 (step 3), Beta3 (N900 - step 4), RTM version 1 (step 5), version 2 (Maemo 7?), version 3 (Maemo 8?)...
of course it's all my immagination and I wouldn't care of this, as long as the N900 does all I search for and a decent features&desire/cost relation...
it just missed one feature...
nice irony ;)

joppu

09-21-2009, 10:38 AM

Oh, and what's this? A bluetooth USB hub?
http://www.inspector-gadget.co.uk/blog_134.shtml

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 10:54 AM

Oh, and what's this? A bluetooth USB hub?
http://www.inspector-gadget.co.uk/blog_134.shtml
BUT I CAN'T USE IT ON A PLANE!!!

j/k, thx a lot for finding this one... ;)

now, what's the transfer speed of data someone may expect from an external 7200 rpm HD to N900 with this bluetooth USB hub? any additional slowness issues using this system due to the use of bluetooth? (thinking about a USB keyboard connected this way for example, something that needs a quick response)
thx in advance!

ps. couldn't something similar exist using WiFi ? isn't wifi "better" than bluetooth?

hqh

09-21-2009, 10:55 AM

Even with full USB OTG support a separate adapter would be required to connect USB devices with standard-A type plugs. This makes USB OTG largely useless for use cases like quickly needing to copy a file from a friend's hard drive or USB stick, unless you're always willing to carry an adapter with you. And I don't like the idea of having a highly-integrated pocket-sized mobile device and then having to carry a bag of accessories with you. The moment you can't fit all the stuff in your pocket you're better off with a larger device anyway :)

I agree that there are some valid use cases for host mode and it surely would be nice to have for hacking, but I don't see the lack of it as a deal-breaker in this type of device.

AnimalMind

09-21-2009, 11:00 AM

Question: So I guess USB2SERIAL for managing Cisco devices is out?

Laughing Man

09-21-2009, 11:01 AM

My main use of OTG was flash drives. Even 32 Gb fills up quick if you had music, movies, and other documents on it (like my n800 does).

Though the n900 has a good camera I imagine I'll still take my Canon when I go places where I know I will be taking photos. But my Canon only supports up to 4 GB. So I would take my n800+camera+a big USB drive and use the n800 to move photos over on vacations.

Granted if it can be done via bluetooth then that's ok. The only other time I have used OTG USB is when my friend and I found a random USB drive on the ground and wanted to see if we could return it if there was a name on a file.

nashith

09-21-2009, 11:03 AM

This is not good news.. I was hoping to interface some microcontrollers to the N900 via a USB-to-Serial converter :( a very important thing for hobby electronics guys.. not to mention those expensive (65$) bluetooth-to-serial converters Nokia suggests on their hacker guide on the PUSH website, might as well hold off the pre-order and wait for the actual in-depth reviews...

sjgadsby

09-21-2009, 11:05 AM

If someone finds them actually offered for sale somewhere, and the pricing isn't outrageous, the EDSLAB WiDRIVE battery-powered, WiFi hard drive enclosures (http://www.edslab.com/eng/Products.html) might be useful to someone.

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 11:07 AM

Even with full USB OTG support a separate adapter would be required to connect USB devices with standard-A type plugs. This makes USB OTG largely useless for use cases like quickly needing to copy a file from a friend's hard drive or USB stick, unless you're always willing to carry an adapter with you. And I don't like the idea of having a highly-integrated pocket-sized mobile device and then having to carry a bag of accessories with you. The moment you can't fit all the stuff in your pocket you're better off with a larger device anyway :)

i go nearly always around like this anyway (on my back/under my arm): http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7559/dscn2015r.jpg
with money, phone, digital camera, headphones, anything else... :)
so, an adapter wouldn't be a problem at all for me..

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 11:14 AM

Question: So I guess USB2SERIAL for managing Cisco devices is out?
you can still use the bluetooth usb hub with the usb2serial cable you allready own... it's something more to buy and carry, but if it's absolutely necessary... (it's also something quite nobody needs btw..)

attila77

09-21-2009, 11:17 AM

Even with full USB OTG support a separate adapter would be required to connect USB devices with standard-A type plugs. This makes USB OTG largely useless for use cases like quickly needing to copy a file from a friend's hard drive or USB stick, unless you're always willing to carry an adapter with you.

Hm, don't know about others, but that was a non-issue for me - If I already had the space for the microB pigtail. I just put the male-to-male USB connector on the end, and then used the device with or without it depending on whether I needed to be host or not.

I agree that there are some valid use cases for host mode and it surely would be nice to have for hacking, but I don't see the lack of it as a deal-breaker in this type of device.

What type ? A smartphone or a mobile computer ? It's perfectly OK with the former but a bit of a letdown for the latter (even if the reasons are perfectly understandable) :(

Crashdamage

09-21-2009, 11:19 AM

I realize this issue means a lot to many here in this forum. But for my day-to-day use it's a non-issue, I'd never use it. USB charging is much more handy for me. I'll get files moved around one way or another.

IMHO, when Nokia was forced, be it by USB standards, time constraints - whatever - for most N900 users, average users, users who may never see this forum, that USB charging is more important and they made the correct call on which to enable.

I'd be more interested in stuff like sync to Google contacts or especially, printing to bluetooth-enabled printers etc.

AnimalMind

09-21-2009, 11:28 AM

you can still use the bluetooth usb hub with the usb2serial cable you allready own... it's something more to buy and carry, but if it's absolutely necessary... (it's also something quite nobody needs btw..)

I understand that, but I work with Cisco devices on a daiy basis and thought this would be an awesome use as I would no longer need to carry around my laptop. Carrying a Bluetooth-USB-HUB I might as well still carry my laptop still.

mykenyc

09-21-2009, 11:33 AM

Hm, don't know about others, but that was a non-issue for me - If I already had the space for the microB pigtail. I just put the male-to-male USB connector on the end, and then used the device with or without it depending on whether I needed to be host or not.

What type ? A smartphone or a mobile computer ? It's perfectly OK with the former but a bit of a letdown for the latter (even if the reasons are perfectly understandable) :(

this is not really directly pointed to you just something i notice within a lot of message boards.

Like i posted before i can understand the let-down but i feel the community in itself and all others turn they back on certain problems like this one and say deal breaker. If the previous devices never had OTG i wonder if this would have been a problem. The only community i see that stands by there favorite makers are Iphone/apple fanboi's no matter what you tell them they will go the other end to make there iphone better than the other phone. I say as a community we see if this can be resolved , if not get a older maemo device if you feel you need OTG that bad. :)

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 11:37 AM

reading this: http://alturl.com/rpef
I didn't exactly understand what this device is anyway; if it's just a normal hub with a bluetooth dongle, then I don't see it happen to access a attached USB device like this...
anyway, the comment of that person might be a supposition or wrong statement..

I also found this: http://iogear.com/product/GUWH104/?PHPSESSID=de395fa43c1df115c3593ddc920fce16
but the lines "It complies with the Multi-band OFDM Ultra Wide Band (UWB) 1.0 specification, and provides users with transmission speeds of up to 480Mbps" and "Additionally, the wireless frequency range of UWB helps avoid interference with other wireless devices like mobile phones, Wi-Fi networks, and Bluetooth devices" tell me it won't work on the N900... :/
and this: "This product does NOT connect with any other wireless technologies such as Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, cordless phones nor wireless control systems."

Otaku

09-21-2009, 11:43 AM

ps. couldn't something similar exist using WiFi ? isn't wifi "better" than bluetooth?

I've got to admit, I'm sure learning a lot of interesting things in this thread! :D It looks like this gadget might do the trick for WiFi:
http://www.slashgear.com/belkins-wifi-hub-unhooks-your-usb-164802/

However it says it needs drivers for Windows or Mac use... not sure how you would access this from the N900.

EDIT: Ugh, looks like this thing needs a separate WiFi router (http://www.mydigitallife.info/2007/06/18/plug-and-play-belkin-network-usb-hub/) to work. Not exactly portable. Still, at least it apparently works under Ubuntu (http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?showtopic=34415&view=findpost&p=490948).

choubbi

09-21-2009, 11:44 AM

I'll still need my N810 for USB flash drives and hard drives management, so I'll just keep it paired with my nokia 6300.

There's no point for me carrying the N900 instead of my 6300 since I have the N810, and the N900 just can't replace the N810 for my uses.

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 11:45 AM

That's what I do when I travel, so I don't need to bring a laptop. I have a couple of nice cameras. I use my N800 in host mode to copy pictures from each camera into the external SD card. I use Canola and/or Quiver to look at my pictures and show them to my traveling companions.For your particular use case Eye Fi (http://www.eye.fi/) might be a solution. I'll just use N900 camera and wait until TransferJet (or similar technology) is a standard.

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 11:58 AM

what about this?
http://www.mpitech.com/mpitech.nsf/pages/bluetooth-printer-adapters_en.html

just throwing in some ideas while doing research... i want to have a solution for this.. :p

EDIT: http://awurl.com/nlVfMkzPe (only printing works apparently)

attila77

09-21-2009, 12:02 PM

Like i posted before i can understand the let-down but i feel the community in itself and all others turn they back on certain problems like this one and say deal breaker. If the previous devices never had OTG i wonder if this would have been a problem.

Hey, don't get me wrong, the N900 is a great phone/device, if I had the money, I'd likely buy it and all, but it IS an increasingly tough fit for some us old N8x0 veterans looking for an upgrade.

jthiemann

09-21-2009, 12:15 PM

Hmmm, I like hooking my Arduino up to my N800. In the N900 PUSH documents, they seem to use a bluetooth-serial adapter ("BlueSMIRF bluetooth modem"). Bummer.

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 12:17 PM

this? i didn't really find better info about it being or not what we're searching for...
i added the supplier on MSN and Skype, waiting for him to pop up, if he ever does...

http://gembird.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008802880610/pdtl/USB-hub/1001774067/USB-Hub.htm

ysss

09-21-2009, 12:32 PM

For your particular use case Eye Fi (http://www.eye.fi/) might be a solution. I'll just use N900 camera and wait until TransferJet (or similar technology) is a standard.

You need the most expensive EyeFi for it to work in adhoc network ;(

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 12:34 PM

I understand that, but I work with Cisco devices on a daiy basis and thought this would be an awesome use as I would no longer need to carry around my laptop. Carrying a Bluetooth-USB-HUB I might as well still carry my laptop still.
or this: http://www.buy.com/prod/iogear-serial-adapter-with-bluetooth-wireless-technology-class-1/q/loc/101/202124646.html
(even if it's still 60 $..)

hqh

09-21-2009, 12:37 PM

What type ? A smartphone or a mobile computer ? It's perfectly OK with the former but a bit of a letdown for the latter (even if the reasons are perfectly understandable) :(

I don't know how exactly would I classify this device. Distinguishing between a smartphone and a mobile computer is becoming increasingly difficult anyway. The N900 seems to stand somewhere between a traditional smartphone and a small tablet PC.

I guess it depends on the physical size of the device - With handheld devices any wires are usually a nuisance (even more than with laptops), so I necessarily wouldn't expect it to have an interface depending mostly on wires.

BruceL

09-21-2009, 12:42 PM

My use case is to use a USB DVD drive. I also had hope that we could figure out how to connect a large monitor via USB,

If it is true that USB will not work it is a MAJOR disappointment. I'll still have to carry my N800 or a small laptop. I am really looking forward to the day when I can use a phone-sized device as a computer; I thought that day was almost here. I've been mentally redesigning my "man-bag" to be smaller yet more functional. It looks like it will still contain a computer. Sigh.

Any news from Nokia about when this will be fixed would be helpful.

pataphysician

09-21-2009, 12:45 PM

Deal breaker for me. Someone asked if the previous devices didn't have host mode would we have cared. Yes, this was one of the main reasons I bought the n800, there are actually ipaqs that have host mode, and for a good reason, a certain market absolutely needs it.

When I was looking at pocketable devices, my main concerns were at least 640x 480 resolution, decent screen size(3.5" or larger), and host mode or CF slot(there are CF ethernet and serial devices) or both. There are some ipaqs that have host mode and CF, but the combination of Linux, 800x480 and usb host mode, won me over and I bought a n800. If the n800 wasn't capable of host mode, I would have never bought the device, as it was critical for me. Us techies need easy wired ethernet and serial, anything without this is a deal breaker for us, because then we have to carry a notebook/netbook and then we might as well stick with a cheap phone we can use as a BT modem, because we will literally have to lug around a notebook everywhere we go, for the ethernet and serial ports, so we might as well run our apps on the notebook and not the phone.

What's stupid about this, is that it seems like nokia could have released two devices that fit both markets, it's what nokia is good at, making a range of devices to fit as many user types. Why not release two devices, the n900 and also a larger screened version of the n900 with usb host and maybe an external SD slot, to keep your techie evangelists and often developer crowd happy. It might not sell as well as the smaller n900, but would probably sell as well as the previous n800/n810, but those people are more likely to give back than the average user, so it's no big deal.

TA-t3

09-21-2009, 12:52 PM

There's no doubt that USB is a terribly bad specification. It looks worse the more I look at it. Igor Stoppa suggested we should start complaining to the USB consortium, and I can only agree. If USB had just been based on Firewire..

Still, it's a pity for those that hoped the N900 could still be considered a pocketable computer. So, with the N8x0 you had to bring a phone along on your mission but you could leave your laptop at home, with the N900 you can leave the phone at home but you'll have to bring the laptop.. there's no way to win :rolleyes:

(I'm of course completely relaxed, as I'm betting on the dark horse mentioned in a post above :D)

TA-t3

09-21-2009, 12:58 PM

Suurorca

09-21-2009, 01:10 PM

(Bold font by me)
That's actually a very good point.

Welll... As lovely it would be, it would mean producing entire new set of parts (display, chassis, covers, main board, etc.), even if the core tech stays the same, it would mean extra costs. And remember we are talking about the company that refuses to make operator specific variants of their phones, arguing that that would lower their production efficiency too much.

There is no way they'd release a bigger iteration just for the relatively small hacker community, especially as most of us will buy the N900 anyway if no better maemo alternative shows up for a while :(

attila77

09-21-2009, 01:18 PM

qole

09-21-2009, 01:22 PM

theflew

09-21-2009, 01:27 PM

Why not release two devices, the n900 and also a larger screened version of the n900 with usb host and maybe an external SD slot, to keep your techie evangelists and often developer crowd happy.

For all we know there will be another Maemo 5 device. All we know is this is the "lead" device. We know from source there is an RX-71 whether it's ever released is a different matter.

vkv.raju

09-21-2009, 01:33 PM

What happened to your N8x0?

Probably on sale to fund for the N900 as people thought their NEXT Gen device would be a FULL upgrade!

pataphysician

09-21-2009, 01:35 PM

Welll... As lovely it would be, it would mean producing entire new set of parts (display, chassis, covers, main board, etc.), even if the core tech stays the same, it would mean extra costs. And remember we are talking about the company that refuses to make operator specific variants of their phones, arguing that that would lower their production efficiency too much.

There is no way they'd release a bigger iteration just for the relatively small hacker community, especially as most of us will buy the N900 anyway if no better maemo alternative shows up for a while :(

I'm pretty sure if they did both, the larger version would sell just as much as the n800/810 because the market for the larger would expand with the numbers the smaller version would bring in. I assume nokia made some money on the n800/810?

Also this seems like a ludicrous argument since nokia makes a bazillion different chassied and screened phones. Nokia has not refused operator customization, but will not cripple software for the operators, I haven't seen anywhere that nokia argued this was due to production efficiency at all.

qole

09-21-2009, 01:35 PM

Well, if you could sell your beloved old NIT for the next new-and-shiny, then you get what you deserve. :( :mad:

BruceL

09-21-2009, 01:38 PM

I hope you are right qole. But several items said it was a problem at the hardware level. Did I miss some information about that problem being just for "official full support?" I.e., when you say "it should be possible" what are you basing that on?

For me it isn't 1% of the time that I need USB. Especially with my hope to rig a full-sized monitor to work via USB. USB is a primary requirement for me.

Is there a test we can give to someone who has an N900 to find out whether OTG or host can be activated?

Suurorca

09-21-2009, 01:38 PM

Yes well. The n8xx din't exactly "sell". They apparently never were ment to, either.

quipper8

09-21-2009, 01:44 PM

Nokia has not refused operator customization, but will not cripple software for the operators, I haven't seen anywhere that nokia argued this was due to production efficiency at all.

nokia crippled the software on the e71x or let AT&T do it one.

range

09-21-2009, 01:44 PM

Oh, and what's this? A bluetooth USB hub?
http://www.inspector-gadget.co.uk/blog_134.shtml

Neat, but:

I just want to add that the Bluetooth USB Hub has power surge protection and is 2.0 USB, which means it’s faster than USB 1.0, but as a side note, it does still work with ALL USB devices, even USB 1.0.

With BT 2.1 having ~ 2.1Mbit/s max, this is good to know :)

AnimalMind

09-21-2009, 01:50 PM

range

09-21-2009, 01:59 PM

What's stupid about this, is that it seems like nokia could have released two devices that fit both markets, it's what nokia is good at, making a range of devices to fit as many user types. Why not release two devices, the n900 and also a larger screened version of the n900 with usb host and maybe an external SD slot, to keep your techie evangelists and often developer crowd happy.

When looking at the reason Igor Stoppa gave for the n900 *not* having host mode, I don't see how they could have built another device having it and coming out at the same time.

BruceL

09-21-2009, 02:14 PM

Mara

09-21-2009, 02:15 PM

Ok, I'm just as disappointed as everyone else here that there's no USB host on the N900.

But I'm so confused when I read these posts. "I bought the N8x0 so I could leave the laptop at home, but with the N900 I'd have to bring the laptop!"

What happened to your N8x0?

Last I looked, my tablet was still a lot smaller than a laptop, and it does USB host and it has a bigger screen. But the N900 has a much faster processor and it has a built-in phone. Between the two devices, you have it all.

For the 1% of the time that you need USB host mode, you can make a little more space for your old N8x0. It also is very useful for giving to the kid(s) as a in-flight movie center.

We definitely need a little app that does a fast ad-hoc wifi connection and VPN between an N8x0 and N900, allowing file transfer, internet sharing, and remote control (via vncviewer / x11vnc).

I'm still hopeful that someone will write a workaround driver that will put the N900 into "damn the consequences host mode," a software host mode that (probably) won't supply any power to the USB device, and must be manually enabled and disabled and won't allow charging while in use.... It seems that it should be possible, just not recommended.

I read more about Qgil and Igor messages that they posted earlier. My understanding is that the limitation is caused by a fact that the N900 USB connector, since not the OTG type, but regular micro-USB, is missing one line that the USB controller needs to switch the operating mode (host/client). Most likely the USB controller has been hard wired to stay in client mode. (Like terminating that "OTG-line" to +5V on the motherboard, if I recall correctly the polarity requirement.) It seem the SW can not override that HW signal.

So, you may be able to get it to work in host mode, but you need to open the device and disconnect the "OTG-pin" from the USB controller and then add switch etc. to it for changing the operating mode. If that is a BGA part, then it is pretty much impossible.

Again, just a guess what I think whats' going on there. I do not have knowledge how this USB port is done on actual N900.

borghal

09-21-2009, 02:26 PM

No OTG is a bummer. Next thing someone tells me syncevolution won't work :mad:

My main use for OTG would have been a USB keyboard. I still haven't found a decent portable bluetooth keyboard with German qwertz. I don't like the small layout of Nokia's SU-8W, I love the design folding into 4 parts, as there are 4 rows of laptop-size keys.

I still have a very nice PalmOne IR foldable keyboard. Having read that the n900 has IR, does anyone recon there'll be drivers for my keyboard?

deadmalc

09-21-2009, 02:28 PM

For myself, I am wondering if anyone knows If I will be able to use this hardware: http://www.iogear.com/product/GBS301/ (or something similar) to connect to cisco devices and use a "dialer" program to manage them? If so my needs will be met.

You should be able to as this is what kind of what carman does (ish)

http://openbossa.indt.org/carman/

But I wouldn't say definitely unless someone can try it!

pataphysician

09-21-2009, 02:30 PM

ossipena

09-21-2009, 02:39 PM

I have no doubt that the problem will eventually be fixed, but when? I'll be quite upset if I buy a N900 then find out that the N910 is just around the corner.

Of course if there is 'unofficial' capability as with the N8x0 it solves the problem. Has anyone with an N900 tried the N8x0 Activate OTG mode script?

what's your definition for the bolded word?

<=2 months from n900 release? - just around the corner

>=6 months? - one should be worried if nothing better hasn't been announced.

qole

09-21-2009, 02:40 PM

...Most likely the USB controller has been hard wired to stay in client mode. (Like terminating that "OTG-line" to +5V on the motherboard, if I recall correctly the polarity requirement.) It seem the SW can not override that HW signal.

So, you may be able to get it to work in host mode, but you need to open the device and disconnect the "OTG-pin" from the USB controller and then add switch etc. to it for changing the operating mode. If that is a BGA part, then it is pretty much impossible....

I was thinking of a replacement USB kernel driver that would ignore / override the HW signal when you told it to go into "unsupported host mode". It would have to be 100% software controlled (the user would have to say, "go into host mode" and "go out of host mode") and probably charging and power supply would not be available... but would this kind of software hack be possible?

pataphysician

09-21-2009, 02:51 PM

When looking at the reason Igor Stoppa gave for the n900 *not* having host mode, I don't see how they could have built another device having it and coming out at the same time.

Easy, the large n900 would have a regular nokia charger and not braindead usb charging, so the usb port would just be just that a usb port. Or you could have two usb ports one for charging and client mode and one for host. Personally I would prefer the regular old nokia charger as they are much faster at charging than crap usb charging, which is really only fine in my book, for small battery dumb devices.

AnimalMind

09-21-2009, 02:51 PM

You should be able to as this is what kind of what carman does (ish)

http://openbossa.indt.org/carman/

But I wouldn't say definitely unless someone can try it!

Well that will be one of he first things I try... I do assume there will be a telnet program for the N900 ... which hopefully will allow connection over bluetooth.

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 02:57 PM

I might as well just use my n800 and cheap small phone like I do now, it does most everything I need.OK.

The n900 is nice but it is much bigger than my cheap phoneEarlier you said you use your N800 and cheap small phone.

As personal experience, OK, but other people would care for many other advantages as well as disadvantages between N800 and N900. Different OS, processor, amount of RAM, ...

How many customers are now going to use N800 + cheap small phone instead of N900 because N800 supports USB host mode? How many will hack around this issue? What are the alternatives?

Many customers will be happy with 32 GB internal + microSD, using BT, WiFi or 3G for e.g. file transfers or SSHFS. With N900 and Maemo 5 It is dead easy to make a picture and upload it to Facebook... which is very attractive for mortal users.

Sure I could ssh into my n800 while it's hooked up to wired ethernet, from my n900, but then that means I've set my n800 down and will likely just leave it there and forget about it, and then I'll have to go get it. This was one of the huge pluses for me of the n800, it is constantly in hand, so I don't even have to think about it, and I have to move all over the place and do things, so this is a key consideration for me.N800 on wired ethernet? Using a USB to ethernet adapter? How much throughput do you get with your N800 over wired ethernet? Do you really require that much MB/sec? What for?

I was thinking of a replacement USB kernel driver that would ignore / override the HW signal when you told it to go into "unsupported host mode". It would have to be 100% software controlled (the user would have to say, "go into host mode" and "go out of host mode") and probably charging and power supply would not be available... but would this kind of software hack be possible?According to quoted hypothesis not because its controlled by a pin (0/1). Like a jumper. Not by software. How can the Linux kernel ignore the refusal of USB controller not wanting to go in host mode? By screaming? That doesn't switch the pin, and from Mara's post it might be even difficult to hardware mod this...

Posts by qgil, ragnar and igor point out microUSB, power via USB are design choices. Tough choices. Design choices are always sacrifices, and there are always (potential) customers who will be unhappy with certain design choices.

Question is
1) how large is that number of (potential) customers,
2) what are their workarounds (software mod, hardware mod, other additional device, competitor device, ..),
3) is it possible to satisfy these people while not dissatisfying those who are happy.

Eventually it also boils down to a commercial decision (ie. very much related to time & money).

fnordianslip

09-21-2009, 03:10 PM

Sorry for the redundancy inherent in this post, but I'd just like to add that in my view, this whole business about the lack of a OTG/Host mode capability is a big mistake for what is touted as a handheld computer.

It's not a phone, right, so why does it even need a USB client interface? I've never used that capability on my N800, not even once, unless you count (re)flashing. None of my other computers have a USB client interface, and if it isn't a phone, why does it need to follow the new trend and support charging via a USB interface?

I pre-ordered an N900 the day it became available on the Nokia UK store. This issue has made me wonder, for the first time, whether or not this was a good idea.

Shame about the lack of a compass, but I never expected one. I didn't expect a retrograde step in the USB department though.

Not impressed.

jolouis

09-21-2009, 03:18 PM

I was thinking of a replacement USB kernel driver that would ignore / override the HW signal when you told it to go into "unsupported host mode". It would have to be 100% software controlled (the user would have to say, "go into host mode" and "go out of host mode") and probably charging and power supply would not be available... but would this kind of software hack be possible?

Might be possible but I'd be very skeptical realistically of that possibility; my experiences with low level hardware like that is that while software might have an option to adjust to tweak a setting on a chip, a hardware pin that's designed to perform the same sort of functionality always overrides since it is usually bound to the physical gate itself. I.e. if you have software to enable "host mode power" on the 5V line, then the software acts as a trigger for the hardware transistor/switch to make it happen; if that same transistor/switch has a hardware input to perform the same function, then using the software to "override it" doesn't work because it can't "undo" the hardware state. Even if you could get a driver to "ignore" that state, you'd probably still have a hard time getting the rest of the OTG host functionality to actually enable... just my thoughts though, I haven't studied the data sheets on the USB chipset though...

My assumption here is that the root cause of this is of course the USB charging thing. If you think about it, they probably had exactly the same issue with the N800 in that they couldn't say OTG because there was no software support to be "approved by the USB consortium" at time of launch, so they stuck with the old Mini-B connector; hardware still worked, just had the wrong connector and no official support (basically fly under the USB consortium radar and say "hey guys, if you can make it work, sweet, but we didn't know anything about it wink wink nudge nudge"). On the N900 it's a different story though because of the stupid USB charging... you can't just leave it all wired up for OTG Host mode, and have USB charging support without some proof that the software properly supports the OTG signalling; otherwise you could release the "OTG software update" to enable OTG later on, and since it no longer has to be verified/approved by anyone (technially... I'm sure Nokia would test things, but we're talking hypothetically here) then what if the software update is goofed and causes the chip to go into host mode while connected to charger/etc. Big problems ensue, and everyone who has a blown up device has the potential to turn around and say "Damn USB OTG blew up my device!".

So yea, really far fetched, but think about it from other more paranoid perspectives and you can see how it fits; therefore Nokia has to keep everyone happy by making it impossible for this to be updated later on.

(And as for the USB charging thing VS the 2mm jack... unfortunately that's a political thing too; Nokia signed on along with everyone else earlier this year as part of an EU innitiative I believe to standardize all mobile device/cell phone charges to be MicroUSB; good idea normally to save everyone a lot of money/hassle/cable messes/etc, but in this case a bit of a pain.. My biggest thought on this was "how would you power the N900 and use OTG at the same time?... powered hub, that stinks").

Just my take on things... oh and for the record I've got my USB OTG numbers for the N800 adapters... over 1000 sold... plus all the other ones people picked up from ebay, etc kind of means that there's at least a basis for OTG given the number of NITs relatively speaking...

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 03:30 PM

It's not a phone, right, so why does it even need a USB client interface?Many mobile devices have that.

and if it isn't a phone, why does it need to follow the new trend and support charging via a USB interface?Many mobile devices have that, and in EU there is political demand to have one standard charger. microUSB will become the standard.

How many mobile devices support USB host mode though? Not many. What are the use cases for USB host mode? Not many, and those which exist can be circumvented. For example, instead of digital camera -> USB host mode of device you can now simply use SD, CF, BT, or even SDIO + WiFi or use N900 + its relatively good on-board camera + Facebook to upload it instantly.

I seriously question the viability of USB hub + USB 3"5 HDD + N800 versus
1) a laptop or netbook with a 2"5 PATA or SATA HDD. I believe many people will be fine with the latter, even considering its weight, size, power usage, etc.
2) N900 with 32 GB on-board, microSD, 3G.

I really wonder what insane amount of GB people have to carry around on their 3"5 HDD that either of these 2 alternatives is not better option. I don't believe that is a common use case.

pycage

09-21-2009, 03:36 PM

It's not a phone, right, so why does it even need a USB client interface? I've never used that capability on my N800, not even once, unless you count (re)flashing. None of my other computers have a USB client interface, and if it isn't a phone, why does it need to follow the new trend and support charging via a USB interface?

Contrary, I could say, why was there USB host mode? I have never used this feature on the 770, N800, and N810. Not even once; I never saw a reason for it. Oh, and I'm very disappointed that I cannot charge my 770, N800, N810 not via USB, because this would be so comfortable, and I wouldn't have to carry a charger around with me (which easily breaks when you carry it around too much). The HTC phones were a bliss, because I could easily charge them via USB wherever I was.

In the end, it's marketing that decides what features need to be supported, and what features get dropped due to a limited time frame.
But I'm happy for USB charging and don't miss USB OTG a bit. The least I want is stick some bulky devices into my tablet.

I pre-ordered an N900 the day it became available on the Nokia UK store. This issue has made me wonder, for the first time, whether or not this was a good idea.

I guess this highly depends on how critical USB OTG is for you.

Not impressed.

Maybe you should consider getting an UMPC instead as USB is what UMPCs are good at.

fnordianslip

09-21-2009, 03:40 PM

Many mobile devices have that, and in EU there is political demand to have one standard charger. microUSB will become the standard.

Sure - a standard charger for mobile phones, but, this is billed as a computer, not a phone, and that's how I want to use it.

On the other hand I couldn't agree more regarding your point about storage. I'm more interested in attaching non-storage devices to my N900.

BruceL

09-21-2009, 03:44 PM

Many mobile devices have that.
I really wonder what insane amount of GB people have to carry around on their 3"5 HDD that either of these 2 alternatives is not better option. I don't believe that is a common use case.

I don't carry it around. I do sometimes pack my portable DVD drive though.

BUT, if my Nxx0 cannot connect to a HDD/DVD then I have to also own and maintain a PC so that I can access them when I need to. I don't want to have to purchase and maintain a PC just so that I can get data to/from a HDD/DVD when I need to. (For awhile I used my N800 as my only computing device. Recently it has become too slow for newer web-pages and I have needed a larger screen to run ddd. Thus I have begun to carry a small laptop/mouse/power-supply/phone/phone's power-supply and I find I leave the N800 home. I would love to go to just a phone an its power supply. But I need USB to do that.)

pycage

09-21-2009, 03:47 PM

On the other hand I couldn't agree more regarding your point about storage. I'm more interested in attaching non-storage devices to my N900.

What kind of devices would that be? IMHO the N900 already has pretty much everything onboard, that you'd attach to other devices:

- WiFi: onboard
- 3G modem: onboard
- Bluetooth: onboard
- keyboard: builtin
- VGA-out: TV-out onboard
- 5M camera: onboard
- IR receiver: onboard
- GPS: onboard
- mouse: not supported by the OS anyway :(

sjgadsby

09-21-2009, 03:53 PM

- mouse: not supported by the OS anyway

Has this been tested? Mouse support has been reported as fixed in Fremantle (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1897#c14).

fnordianslip

09-21-2009, 03:54 PM

Maybe you should consider getting an UMPC instead as USB is what UMPCs are good at.
What? I already carry a MacBook Pro and an Eee901 (running Crunchbang Linux) everywhere, and I was hoping that the N900 would be a good step forwards towards convergence nirvana, allowing me to lighten my load. It seems that it isn't though, as it would appear that the N900 is designed to be just another peripheral for a PC (and from what I've been hearing about Ovi, probably one running Windows).

Of course your opinion is as valid as mine, and probably more popular with the marketing crowd, but remember what Bill Hicks said about them ...

fnordianslip

09-21-2009, 04:05 PM

What kind of devices would that be?
I'm specifically thinking of these:
1) USB/RS-232 adapter and 2) USB soundcard, for hooking up to ham radio gear.
3) USB attached AX.25 Terminal Node Controller (which hooks up to other ham radio gear).
4) Sheevaplug debug port, providing JTAG and console interfaces.

One thing I'd like to understand is whether or not the N900 is now expected to be able to provide a USB-Net interface to connected hosts. Can anyone offer any insight in this regard?

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 04:06 PM

Sure - a standard charger for mobile phones, but, this is billed as a computer, not a phone, and that's how I want to use it.A mobile phone is a computer. A watch is a computer. A Nokia N900 is a mobile phone. But they're also much more.

On the other hand I couldn't agree more regarding your point about storage. I'm more interested in attaching non-storage devices to my N900.Which?

Honestly, I'm interested in the hypothetic use cases!

I guess this highly depends on how critical USB OTG is for you.Yeah, what are the use cases?

If that BlueTooth <-> USB host mode adapter works, is available for a reasonable price, and not too big and heavy the question becomes:

How critical is USB OTG with transfer speed higher than 2 MB/sec?

The only use case I can imagine is a portable HDD. I wonder about the throughput of that on e.g. N800.

OK, yes, you cannot use the N900 together with a portable CD/DVD burner and a non-Maemofied k3b UI. The horror, N900 sales will plunge. Seriously, if that is so important for you, grab some second hand laptop for 100 EUR and let it boot into k3b or something. As added bonus it can function as portable HDD as well. And it doesn't need a USB powered hub either, it has its own battery. Maybe it can even power up your N900 when the battery is empty.

qole

09-21-2009, 04:09 PM

BUT, if my Nxx0 cannot connect to a HDD/DVD then I have to also own and maintain a PC so that I can access them when I need to. I don't want to have to purchase and maintain a PC just so that I can get data to/from a HDD/DVD when I need to.

I'm running into the same problem in my house these days. I find that I need to keep one PC that has (1) a Windows partition and (2) a DVD drive.

No matter how I try, I find I need to keep coming back to Windows, even if it is just to do some gaming or download some proprietary driver software for my daughter's otherwise-very-cool Tag Reader (http://www.leapfrog.com/tag/). And I keep finding that there are optical discs that I need to read, no matter how obsolete I personally find them to be.

So yeah, I think most people are going to need some access to these legacy things for a while to come.

And as I've been saying, if the N800 was good enough for occasionally reading DVDs before, why isn't it good enough now? It can even easily transfer the data to a microSD (with adapter card) to be used by the N900.

AnimalMind

09-21-2009, 04:13 PM

I'm specifically thinking of these:
1) USB/RS-232 adapter and 2) USB soundcard, for hooking up to ham radio gear.
3) USB attached AX.25 Terminal Node Controller (which hooks up to other ham radio gear).
4) Sheevaplug debug port, providing JTAG and console interfaces.

One thing I'd like to understand is whether or not the N900 is now expected to be able to provide a USB-Net interface to connected hosts. Can anyone offer any insight in this regard?

For number one here is what I have found: http://www.serialio.com/products/adaptors/BlueSnapXP.php there are a ton of these floating around out there I am gona try.

Texrat

09-21-2009, 04:14 PM

Next device needs to have two micro USB ports. :D

klinglerware

09-21-2009, 04:19 PM

The real world use case that would come into play here for me is the business meeting. What frequently happens is that a colleague or a client would hand me a usb flash drive with presentation files or other data. This is often the quickest way of file transfer, especially if we are at a meeting site where one or more of the participants does not have e-mail access.

Honestly though, I've never used the OTG feature on my n800 simply because the reality is that I would always bring my laptop to a business presentation--the USB issue is pretty much moot for a laptop. I doubt that the laptop will lose its relevance for me anytime soon, especially for instances where I am doing presentation work.

So net, not having OTG is not such a big deal for me in the here and now. But if the vision is to have the eventual successors of the n900 be a true replacement for the laptop, I do see how not having a means of sharing data physically could be a miss.

Ratva

09-21-2009, 04:29 PM

Hello! I'm new here and I have little bad english writing skills but I hope you'll understand me.

So I have two cases where I need usb support and both are very important. At the moment I usually have Acer Aspire One with me and that sucks.

What I need is a way to get files open from usb memory stick. I meet my business partner etc. and I have to get open documents or music from his usb stick. And that must be possible everywhere, not only in office. So is there a way without usb host support. And dont tell me to use mmc cards etc. because I can't make the choice what my partners will use.

Second thing is Enttec Open DMX usb product that I use daily. I or my employee have to test and adjust lights with this product and we can be then near the roof or other difficult position so smaller device is better. I know that enttec works somehow over the serial so it might be possible to complete it that way somehow.. but i have no skills to star mod the device itself so any ideas with that?

I also saw the link to bluetooth usb hub device but I cannot find any store where to order it. So does it really exists or is it a fake or something?

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 04:37 PM

Personally, I do not like to have cables on my mobile device because it makes me feel immobile. Plop, oops it unplugs, trip over the wire, and so on. Oops, can't take it with me, it has to stay plugged. Oops, can't find the cable. Forgot it somewhere. Can't have it in the hand, the cables are in the way. And have to be careful with all kind of converters. Some of them break easily.

The real world use case that would come into play here for me is the business meeting. What frequently happens is that a colleague or a client would hand me a usb flash drive with presentation files or other data. This is often the quickest way of file transfer, especially if we are at a meeting site where one or more of the participants does not have e-mail access.They could e-mail it (even internal over WiFi), they could put it on SD (much smaller too), you could carry your BlueTooth to USB adapter, you could carry your N8x0, or you could ask them to copy it to your SD card using USB to SD converter (http://www.technologyevangelist.com/2007/04/sd_cards_with_usb_ad.html).

I don't carry it around. I do sometimes pack my portable DVD drive though.

BUT, if my Nxx0 cannot connect to a HDD/DVD then I have to also own and maintain a PC so that I can access them when I need to. I don't want to have to purchase and maintain a PC just so that I can get data to/from a HDD/DVD when I need to. (For awhile I used my N800 as my only computing device. Recently it has become too slow for newer web-pages and I have needed a larger screen to run ddd. Thus I have begun to carry a small laptop/mouse/power-supply/phone/phone's power-supply and I find I leave the N800 home. I would love to go to just a phone an its power supply. But I need USB to do that.)A PC? That isn't a mobile device. I thought the point of N900 host mode + portable device was that it was mobile, portable and can be used during or after traveling. A portable DVD even requires a USB powered hub, so you could not use it while in a bus or train (unless you travel business class), while you could use a laptop or netbook with dvd.

So in your use case you'd need USB cable, a portable HDD, and a portable DVD writer, a USB hub, an adapter for your USB hub or DVD writer, and an adapter for your N8x0. The weight and size and cost of these devices is considerable compared to a laptop with 1 GHz, 256 MB RAM, DVD writer, and Linux booting into X with k3b. Which, if you leave the adapter, also would not need power for say 2 hours, and supports sleep/hibernate. And when you don't need to use your DVD writer (I guess usually...) you simply have your N900 with its microUSB cable to power it up.

[...] and I was hoping that the N900 would be a good step forwards towards convergence nirvana, allowing me to lighten my load.1) If you look at everything the N900 can do, it is an awesome convergence device. The lack of USB host mode does not negate the many new features it delivers.
2) If USB host mode is very important for you you will hack around the lack of this feature. So lets think of the alternatives. For example, what do you think about that BlueTooth to USB adapter? Is it a viable option?

It seems that it isn't though, as it would appear that the N900 is designed to be just another peripheral for a PCPeripheral for a PC? In so many ways its able to replace a PC/laptop/netbook/smartphone! Why neglect those? Only because it doesn't support USB host mode?

Come on. I bet those people who shoot a picture with N900 with acceptable quality and upload this to MySpace or Facebook within 5 seconds over 3G are going to disagree.

And, frankly, no, not every opinion is worth equal. Because some opinions revolve around a unique use case which simply is not common, or was result of a tough design choice which caters a more common need.

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 04:38 PM

Personally i find some of the "cmon you don't need usb otg" posts pretty useless, since they don't add anything to the search for a solution or extra information about the issue.
If I'm posting here it's because I find that feature important.

My use cases:
- I have a 1 TB HD with many movies, many MP3's, software, documents, images, whatever. I keep pretty much on there. And I assure you 32 GBs are not enough. Space is actually never enough :o
So, If I want to place a different music selection on my N900 for a party or travel, I would just have to attach the HD to the N900 in host mode. No intermediate steps via my shutdown computer.
- I could attach a USB DVD reader when needed; I never needed it so far, but hey, to have that possibility more would be great. Like not having bluetooth till you discover you could really use it for once; it's added value.
- At home I only have wired internet (ethernet). And I don't want to buy a wifi router; I'm fine like this, I love ethernet. So, no USB-ethernet adapters.
- USB flash drives (often at university)
- attach my digital camera
- USB keyboard or mouse eventually when needed

Many things you can do with a USB host. None of these it it's missing. The bluetooth-USB, if it exists and works, would always need a source of power (while, if I'm not wrong, the N8x0 has enough power for flash drives, probably my digital camera, maybe keyboard, maybe mouse.. dunno whatever; some not, but for those I would find a cheap and small self powered USB hub). The transfer rate is slowish, but well, compromises and patience I guess.
Still, we have to find that bluetooth adapter, not sure if it exists.

BruceL

09-21-2009, 04:47 PM

And as I've been saying, if the N800 was good enough for occasionally reading DVDs before, why isn't it good enough now? It can even easily transfer the data to a microSD (with adapter card) to be used by the N900.

Of course I have some options:
1. N800 + small cheap phone
2. N900 + N800
3. Laptop + phone

But this would be even better:
4. N900

I don't want to maintain a laptop or N800 and another phone: updating software, charging batteries, old-battery replacement, managing power-cords. Yuck! I don't want to carry them, boot them, debug them.

I want something that will fit in my pocket and do what the N900 does + USB like the N800.

Matan

09-21-2009, 04:50 PM

Next device needs to have two micro USB ports. :D

This device should have two USB ports (If Nokia cannot provide the functionality expected from a "mobile computer" with one port).

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 04:54 PM

What I need is a way to get files open from usb memory stick. I meet my business partner etc. and I have to get open documents or music from his usb stick. And that must be possible everywhere, not only in office. So is there a way without usb host support. And dont tell me to use mmc cards etc. because I can't make the choice what my partners will use.MicroUSB converter for USB sticks http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/reviews/item/Mobidapter.php

Perhaps not in your case but in other cases partners could use USB sticks which host (micro)SD card, or use a SD card hosting microSD and having USB connector.

Second thing is Enttec Open DMX usb product that I use daily. I or my employee have to test and adjust lights with this product and we can be then near the roof or other difficult position so smaller device is better. I know that enttec works somehow over the serial so it might be possible to complete it that way somehow.. but i have no skills to star mod the device itself so any ideas with that?BlueTooth to RS232 converter http://www.serialio.com/products/adaptors/BlueSnapXP.php my OBD-II reader also came with a RS232 to BlueTooth converter.

Thesandlord

09-21-2009, 04:57 PM

I have to say that after thinking about it, MOST use cases and features of the N900 negate the need for USB host. But if you already invested in USB devices for the tablets, its going to be a really hard decision.

I just use USB host for my mouse/keyboard, which have bluetooth alternatives. Actually, most things can be used with bluetooth or bluetooth serial. Just not everything...

fanoush

09-21-2009, 04:59 PM

Contrary, I could say, why was there USB host mode? I have never used this feature on the 770, N800, and N810. Not even once; I never saw a reason for it. Oh, and I'm very disappointed that I cannot charge my 770, N800, N810 not via USB, because this would be so comfortable

Yeah, I believe this is sadly the voice of the majority so the compromise makes perfect sense for Nokia. Hard cover, two full SD slots, buttons, d-pad, usb host, ... who needs it anyway. And this is step 4. I wonder what the step 5 will bring us :-)

I wouldn't have to carry a charger around with me (which easily breaks when you carry it around too much).

when charging over usb, whole usb port might break easily. One hole and a pin seems more robust to me. I wonder how long microusb will last when charged daily.

The HTC phones were a bliss, because I could easily charge them via USB wherever I was.

Yes, HTC phones. They are one step ahead. They managed to put audio into usb port too so you cannot charge and use headphones at the same time unless you buy special bulky cable. Oh, wait, you cannot use your regular headphones even when not charging without using special adapter too.

In the end, it's marketing that decides what features need to be supported

Definitely. It is great to fit into planned target group :-)

Let's hope bluetooth wil not lag on N900 so it will be good alternative for keyboards and gaming.

qole

09-21-2009, 05:03 PM

- At home I only have wired internet (ethernet). And I don't want to buy a wifi router; I'm fine like this, I love ethernet.

I love Ethernet too, but seriously, take a look at something like the Cisco/Linksys WRT54GL. It has a Linux OS that can be flashed to a custom enhanced version; it's a great Ethernet router; plus it does rock-solid, secure wireless.

eiffel

09-21-2009, 05:07 PM

when charging over usb, whole usb port might break easily. One hole and a pin seems more robust to me. I wonder how long microusb will last when charged daily.
Robustness shouldn't be a problem. Mini-usb has the contact springs in the device, but the micro-usb connector moves the springs to the cable.

Micro-usb is much more robust than mini-usb, and if problems develop the chances are that they will be fixed by a new cable instead of needing a device repair. Micro-usb is a reasonable choice for a charging connector.

Regards,
Roger

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 05:08 PM

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/reviews/item/Mobidapter.php

Perhaps not in your case but in other cases partners could use USB sticks which host (micro)SD card, or use a SD card hosting microSD and having USB connector.

discussed in the first pages; just look at where the SD card slot is in the N900... ;)

Ratva

09-21-2009, 05:11 PM

MicroUSB converter for USB sticks http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/reviews/item/Mobidapter.php

Perhaps not in your case but in other cases partners could use USB sticks which host (micro)SD card, or use a SD card hosting microSD and having USB connector.

BlueTooth to RS232 converter http://www.serialio.com/products/adaptors/BlueSnapXP.php my OBD-II reader also came with a RS232 to BlueTooth converter.

Mobiadapter looks great! But can I use it with N900 because the location of the reader. I guess that reader in N900 works like sim reader so I can't see a way how to put mobiadapter in.

The problem with Enttec is that the device itself works via usb but OS thinks it's a serial device. That's way I need somebody's help to get it work straight over serial or then I need a new device that sends dmx over serial without too difficult h4x0r ;)

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 05:12 PM

But this would be even better:
4. N900I want to win the lotto too, but it ain't gonna happen, even though i pray every day and cry God help me win.

It was a tough, technical design decision as you can read on page 2 or 3 (igor, quoted by qgil).

Since N900 going to be released in october the N900 is already being manufactured.

So you will need to learn with the fact that N900 does not come with USB host mode enabled, and it probably cannot be easily hacked to enable it.

If it is important for you, you'll need to think of workarounds...

- I have a 1 TB HD with many movies, many MP3's, software, documents, images, whatever. I keep pretty much on there. And I assure you 32 GBs are not enough. Space is actually never enough :o

So, If I want to place a different music selection on my N900 for a party or travel, I would just have to attach the HD to the N900 in host mode. No intermediate steps via my shutdown computer.[/quote]:eek: that is a lot of data. You need to give priority to your data and decide what you must have on the go.

You could host some of the data online and export this. Examples are Dropbox, GmailFS.

Or you attach your 1 TB on your home network, build VPN, and use UPnP over 3G. Won't work for XViD or DVD. Then you have to make choices (the horror).

- I could attach a USB DVD reader when needed; I never needed it so far, but hey, to have that possibility more would be great. Like not having bluetooth till you discover you could really use it for once; it's added value.

- USB keyboard or mouse eventually when needed[/SIZE]When needed, but not needed right now. This kind of thinking is an invitation to bloat.

An alternative for USB keyboard/mouse is BT keyboard/mouse.

[quote]- At home I only have wired internet (ethernet). And I don't want to buy a wifi router; I'm fine like this, I love ethernet. So, no USB-ethernet adapters.Why do you not want to buy a WiFi router?

Without some kind of USB to ethernet convertor you cannot use your hypothetic N900-with-USB-host-mode on your ethernet-only network.

- USB flash drives (often at university)Alternatives are provided above

- attach my digital cameraN900 camera is not good enough? Digital camera has no other way to export its pictures to your N900? My digital camera, quite an old and crappy one, has SD. I could use a microSD to SD converter together with it. No need to attach them either. You could also opt for Eye Fi, a SDIO + WiFi adapter for digital cameras.

Many things you can do with a USB host. None of these it it's missing. The bluetooth-USB, if it exists and works, would always need a source of power (while, if I'm not wrong, the N8x0 has enough power for flash drives, probably my digital camera, maybe keyboard, maybe mouse.. dunno whatever; some not, but for those I would find a cheap and small self powered USB hub). The transfer rate is slowish, but well, compromises and patience I guess.
Still, we have to find that bluetooth adapter, not sure if it exists.Your digital camera has its own battery, just like a BT keyboard or mouse. Transfer rate of BlueTooth 2.1: 2 MB/sec. It exists, its referred to earlier in this thread. The BlueTooth to USB converter might be able to be powered by the N900 I don't know, interesting question.

attila77

09-21-2009, 05:18 PM

Next device needs to have two micro USB ports. :D

Actually, the pandora folks got this even better, but of course, they did not have the same space constraints, but hey, I already said my pockets are big :)

USB 2.0 OTG port (1.5/12/480Mbps) with capability to charge device
USB 2.0 HOST port (480Mbps) capable of providing the full 500mA to attached devices

This way you have all combinations of host, client, charge, etc

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 05:24 PM

I love Ethernet too, but seriously, take a look at something like the Cisco/Linksys WRT54GL. It has a Linux OS that can be flashed to a custom enhanced version; it's a great Ethernet router; plus it does rock-solid, secure wireless.Many DSL/cable modems come with WiFi nowadays. Some of them even support USB host mode and provide a USB port, so you could stick a printer/HDD in it. Or a USB WiFi adapter. Or power up your N900.

FWIW, I think MIFI supports USB OTG.

To solve lack of USB host mode the best option is IMO some kind of small converter/modem which allows the NIT to connect to a mobile USB OTG device. Optionally with its own battery. Or, some kind of USB powered hub which provides this. Like a 'USB router' which also serves as server for N900 and all other devices lacking USB host mode because it supports itself USB host mode. Does this exist?

UCOMM

09-21-2009, 05:27 PM

Next device needs to have two micro USB ports. :D

i heard it wont have a single usb port save for the one for charging

i heard they're going to stick a wireless usb port in there

imo i think i'll hold off on my purchase and wait for that

andree

09-21-2009, 05:30 PM

So you will need to learn with the fact that N900 does not come with USB host mode enabled, and it probably cannot be easily hacked to enable it.

you sound a little too definitive, for a guy who doesn't have the hardware in his hands :) The quoted articles don't provide too much info either - they would be more respectable, if they were written by actual nokia hardware developer members (which they aren't).

You could host some of the data online and export this. Examples are Dropbox, GmailFS.

Or you attach your 1 TB on your home network, build VPN, and use UPnP over 3G. Won't work for XViD or DVD. Then you have to make choices (the horror).

yep, that sounds like completely obvious solution - to workaround the copying by sending the data through half of the internet :-)

Why do you not want to buy a WiFi router?

Without some kind of USB to ethernet convertor you cannot use your hypothetic N900-with-USB-host-mode on your ethernet-only network.

Imagine being a system administrator going into a server room. 99% of such rooms don't contain a wifi network.. Not to mention 802.1x, telnetting to switches, and similar stuff...

N900 camera is not good enough?

I'm sure you're not comparing 1/12345678'' inch sensor of the n900 to dslr camera sensor here - are you?

The BlueTooth to USB converter might be able to be powered by the N900 I don't know, interesting question.

Couldn't find a bt-2-usbhost convertor anywhere (the other way around is easy).. I can't quite imagine what kind of driver architecture would you use for that stuff (like connecting n900 - bt - bt_dongle - usb_host - usb_device_like_usb_2_ethernet) - I'm not exactly sure any driver is ready for this scenario, even in linux kernel. But I could be wrong and this one could (at least in linux) work by creating some kind of loopback device...

Damn, wish some nokia representative could come and give us answers - instead of arguing here about nothing and all...

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 05:37 PM

Hmmm, I like hooking my Arduino up to my N800. In the N900 PUSH documents, they seem to use a bluetooth-serial adapter ("BlueSMIRF bluetooth modem"). Bummer.Indeed... http://blogs.nokia.com/pushn900/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/PUSH_N900_Hackers_guidev1.0.pdf

attila77

09-21-2009, 05:48 PM

N900 camera is not good enough? Digital camera has no other way to export its pictures to your N900? My digital camera, quite an old and crappy one, has SD. I could use a microSD to SD converter together with it. No need to attach them either. You could also opt for Eye Fi, a SDIO + WiFi adapter for digital cameras.

As I'm a guy with a camera problem (yes, probably completely atypical), let me try to explain.

MTP. EyeFi and microSD won't help there. I was hoping the N900 will resolve the MTP problems/lockups and allow for remote controlled cameras so I could use it for shooting stars (http://picasaweb.google.com/attila.csipa/AstroKampLetenka2009#5362875428083990098) and funky time-lapse stuff

capacity. HD material will run you 5-20GB per hour, so 32GB is not an unfillable resource (actually, if 32GB was enough, I would not bother with the tablet at all, I'd just buy a 32GB SD :) )

mobility. I often leave the enclosure for copying stuff over. If that would be my NIT/netbook, I'd have to leave it (not gonna happen) or wait (the horror :) )

retrieval speed. I copy TO the HDD via USB host, but copy BACK to my main machine via eSATA. Seriously, copying Nx10G via USB (especially if it goes through a translation layer like with the NIT or a camera) is just not fun (yes, I know, the horror :) )

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 05:49 PM

you sound a little too definitive, for a guy who doesn't have the hardware in his hands :) The quoted articles don't provide too much info either - they would be more respectable, if they were written by actual nokia hardware developer members (which they aren't).What do you mean? qgil quotes igor.

yep, that sounds like completely obvious solution - to workaround the copying by sending the data through half of the internet :-)Why not? If its data you commonly need you have it with you. If you're not sure you need the data or you might need it in some cases you host it online on a service like Dropbox, Gmail, or your home server.

I found 1 TB a rather unrealistic amount of data, and the required weight and size make one less mobile.

Imagine being a system administrator going into a server room. 99% of such rooms don't contain a wifi network.. Not to mention 802.1x, telnetting to switches, and similar stuff...RS232 <-> BlueTooth adapter together with N900 is pretty damn useful there.

I'm sure you're not comparing 1/12345678'' inch sensor of the n900 to dslr camera sensor here - are you?DSLR. Hah. If you can afford that you can afford a CF to WiFi or SD to WiFi card for it too.

Couldn't find a bt-2-usbhost convertor anywhere (the other way around is easy).. I can't quite imagine what kind of driver architecture would you use for that stuff (like connecting n900 - bt - bt_dongle - usb_host - usb_device_like_usb_2_ethernet) - I'm not exactly sure any driver is ready for this scenario, even in linux kernel. But I could be wrong and this one could (at least in linux) work by creating some kind of loopback device...At least USB <-> BlueTooth SPP profile exists.

Damn, wish some nokia representative could come and give us answers - instead of arguing here about nothing and all...Or perhaps read the whole thread. Everything I say in this post is just rehashed from other posts...

quingu

09-21-2009, 05:51 PM

What's wrong with having more options, or more elegant ways of doing stuff?

Of course most of us will have a laptop at hand and won't see a missing usb connectivity with the n900 as a problem - but it would have been a great bonus.

Connecting stuff through a chain of adapters, some of them soldered on your own? Been there, done that - with my 770. Which cost me 300+ Euros in january 2006.

Having to explain: No, can't do that directly, i'll have to tether it to my phone first? Been there, done that.

That was ok. The former NITs are more toys than serious business devices. But they had a fair price that still left you with some money to buy and add the stuff the devices were missing.

The n900 is NOT a toy for me. It is a darn expensive thing and I will have to abstain on many nice things in the next months in order to be able to pay for it.

It gets so many things right. It should be able to get a simple USB plug right, too. That stuff has been around for years.

Of course my life doesn't depend on that plug. But it's a letdown nonetheless!

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 05:59 PM

@ quingu, the lessons are that 1) no convergence device is perfect or gives you exactly the features you need while not giving you any features you don't need 2) because of step 4/5 there are some features and design choices optimized for less technical inclined people. Sometimes that means sacrifices for the techies 3) in the thread earlier it was explained why a second USB plug was not a feasable solution 4) so to implement USB host mode would have seriously delayed the release of Nokia N900, while Nokia N810 is from 2007...

As I'm a guy with a camera problem (yes, probably completely atypical), let me try to explain.

MTP. EyeFi and microSD won't help there. I was hoping the N900 will resolve the MTP problems/lockups and allow for remote controlled cameras so I could use it for shooting stars (http://picasaweb.google.com/attila.csipa/AstroKampLetenka2009#5362875428083990098) and funky time-lapse stuffWhat is MTP?

retrieval speed. I copy TO the HDD via USB host, but copy BACK to my main machine via eSATA. Seriously, copying Nx10G via USB (especially if it goes through a translation layer like with the NIT or a camera) is just not fun (yes, I know, the horror :) )FireWire 800 would give you almost twice the speed, and is more reliable than USB. Ofcourse your devices would need to support it.

BruceL

09-21-2009, 06:05 PM

@ quingu, the lessons are that 1) no convergence device is perfect or gives you exactly the features you need while not giving you any features you don't need

No. AFAICT, All they would have had to do was NOT solder the connection that disables OTG. It isn't a matter of not being able to do it. It sounds like the feature was actively DISABLED. There is no lesson to learn. They could have made it work, but for politics.

f(x)

09-21-2009, 06:10 PM

Seriously this a deal breaker to me.
I know that SD-USB converter might be the solution for this one.
From what I found SD cards require 3.3v to run (2.7~3.6v is also possible) and USB requires at lest 4.75V. Which might be a problem here. Anyway to make a converter it might work with connecting a usb pins to the following
microSD-=-USB
Pin---Pin
1
2
3--->2*
4--->1
5
6--->4
7--->3*
8

Now we want someone to sacrifice his microSD + USB device (his usb stick?) + card-reader/laptop/n900/mobile to see if its going to work :P
Before going a head I have to warn you that I didn't know which pin to which it should be connected in the case of (7&3)* One suppose to be Data in and other Data-out. I think someone who is into DIY or in electric can do it in the right way. I should also include that you shouldn't try this with with any important data in your usb stick. The worse case it might not work or you just burned it out.

For electric guys check this out

USB Pinout:
http://pinouts.ru/Slots/USB_pinout.shtml
SD (microsd):
http://www.chlazza.net/sdcardinfo.html
http://www.pqi.com.tw/upload/download/AE56-xxxx%20VA.1.pdf
(In the following link it shows to how to connect a miniSD to microSD)
http://www.planetmobile.it/jumpjack/adattatore/pinout-eng.html

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 06:18 PM

...(long post of previous page)...

don't take it as an offense pls, but you look a bit like a marketing guy, telling me what I need and not, what I might or not need in the future... they're feature missing which were in previous models, which i was looking forward for, that's it.

i don't own BT keyb and mouse, and buying those costs, even mose since you need batteries. I once had a BT mouse, but got tired of the batteries problems and switched back to a 'eternal' USB mouse.

i don't want a wifi router since i allready have a well working ethernet one; a cable has lesser lag/errors problems and uses the available speed more efficiently; and lastly, it might seem crazy, since we're bombarded continuously with every kind of radiations (including GPRS, 3G, BT, wifi..), I try to avoid unneeded extra radiation all day and night long.

i don't see alternatived for the usb flash drives so far. the bluetooth usb hub still has to be confirmed if you're referring to that, and the usb sd adapter isn't usable with the N900 (see where the sd slot is).

my digital camera uses SD cards, not microSD. only ways to transfer photos are: USB or SD reader. for me the photos of the N900 might be good enough for some occasions, but not enough for other occasions. EyeFi is a product more I should buy, and it's not really cheap.

"It exists, its referred to earlier in this thread." about the bluetooth-USB Hub.. I wouldn't be so sure about that, as I allready posted here: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=330738&postcount=89
try to find one in any shop online and post a link, thanks. no hands-on review either afaik. ( here (http://www.inspector-gadget.co.uk/blog_134.shtml) the author of the article says: "So yeah, I am most definitely gona order myself one of these Bluetooth USB Hubs." he never had it in his hands either.)

anyway i repeat, it looks like you decide what i need or not... exactly what i hate in apple's marketing.

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 06:18 PM

No. AFAICT, All they would have had to do was NOT solder the connection that disables OTG. It isn't a matter of not being able to do it. It sounds like the feature was actively DISABLED. There is no lesson to learn. They could have made it work, but for politics.USB standard, required for certification, does not allow that. This isn't a deliberate attempt to piss off customers. It is because of USB standard doesn't allow, time contraints, and tough design decision between USB charging and USB host mode. See: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020830.html

MMS is unavailable not to piss us off but because of time contrains. BlueTooth DUN can be added 3rd party via BlueZ. Nokia is really doing its best to please us (!!!) but sometimes they have to decide between 2 (or more) decisions while the outcome will always lead to angry feedback on t.m.o... sometimes decisions are tough... and you cannot make everyone happy...

And the beauty of Apple is that they are able to make tough design decisions, following a clean interface HIG, providing a good SDK.

What I don't like though is the vague restrictions and that Christian Anglo-Saxon moral shoven up my throat (violence good, sexual bad).

Nor do I like the intentional crippling of the device. Such as BlueTooth disabled on iPod 2nd generation. And then enabling it for 10 EUR software update, but only providing AD2P profile (e.g. no SPP). Or not allowing BlueTooth DUN. Or not allowing 3rd party repositories. Nokia is not like that. Nokia welcomes 3rd party repositories in Maemo. Nokia did not intentionally cripple BlueTooth they allow DUN via 3rd party community support. And Nokia did not intentionally cripple USB on N900 either; see the mail I link to above!!!

attila77

09-21-2009, 06:34 PM

What is MTP?

Media Transfer Protocol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol). Two important things about it, one, you can take pictures in a programmable fashion straight from the computer (http://www.flickr.com/photos/armk/3338573106/), and two, the camera does not just play dead and act as a mass storage interface :) That way when you are connected, the camera is still fully operational and can take/delete pictures without tripping over the host connection (not to mention it's able to handle thumbnails and metadata without having to copy over the whole image).

FireWire 800 would give you almost twice the speed, and is more reliable than USB. Ofcourse your devices would need to support it.

For some reason firewire (even 1394a, not to mention 1394b) is a white crow around here, so it wasn't really an option :(

hqh

09-21-2009, 06:45 PM

Of course most of us will have a laptop at hand and won't see a missing usb connectivity with the n900 as a problem - but it would have been a great bonus.

Yes, I agree. It would have been a good bonus feature - but if it's permanently disabled in hardware, people whining online are not going to make it magically appear... ;)
HOWEVER...

According to quoted hypothesis not because its controlled by a pin (0/1). Like a jumper. Not by software. How can the Linux kernel ignore the refusal of USB controller not wanting to go in host mode? By screaming? That doesn't switch the pin, and from Mara's post it might be even difficult to hardware mod this...

At least the publicly available OMAP35x (similar to but not exactly the same used in N900) technical reference manual lists USB2.0 TESTMODE register. It appears that it could be used to force the controller into a specific mode by software, regardless of the ID-pin or connected devices.

The N900 might not deliver power to the port but other than that I still believe the support might be doable by software hacks.

BruceL

09-21-2009, 07:00 PM

USB standard, required for certification, does not allow that. This isn't a deliberate attempt to piss off customers. It is because of USB standard doesn't allow, time contraints, and tough design decision between USB charging and USB host mode. See: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020830.html

I'm not interested is who is or isn't to blame. The fact remains that I'm still going to have to keep/maintain another computer and the fact remains that I am upset about it. That doesn't mean that I don't like Nokia or that I don't like the maemo community. It just means that I'm going to have to lug more than I want to for awhile longer and I'm disappointed because I (justifiably) thought the N900 would change that. Furthermore, it's good that I am communicating that I am upset because it will help Nokia do a post-mortum analysis. Lastly, by emphasizing that Nokia could help by issuing a statement about when we can expect a device without this shortcoming I am providing them with the information they need to help maintain a sense of community.

Those who are saying that I won't have to carry around extra things are just wrong. Those who are saying that all I have to do is simply carry around a separate computer (e.g., qole) are correct, but that is exactly what I just said I am disappointed about. For those who want me to stop being disappointed, stop pushing your values up my throat.

Laughing Man

09-21-2009, 07:16 PM

There WILL be other Maemo 5 devices in 2010 so the question is not whether Nokia will try to cover a larger market, but WHAT market segments will these additional Maemo devices target ? Cheaper/lower spec ? No voice ? More compact ? No qwerty ? Larger 4-5" screen ? That's why I was expecting a Maemo device roadmap now that the N900 (and more importantly Maemo5) is out, but alas, still no info.

That's what I'm beginning to wonder. I hope I find out my news by this time next year (when I'll be buying the n900). And when and what devices that Maemo 6 will be on (not just an upgrade, but what hardware will Nokia release for Maemo 6).

vinc17

09-21-2009, 07:22 PM

Seriously, if that is so important for you, grab some second hand laptop for 100 EUR and let it boot into k3b or something. As added bonus it can function as portable HDD as well. And it doesn't need a USB powered hub either, it has its own battery. Maybe it can even power up your N900 when the battery is empty.
Alternatively you can use a HDD with USB OTG (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17045) (found with Google). If I understand correctly, it was only $18, without the HD itself. This review was written 3 years ago. I wonder what similar devices exist nowadays...

BTW, I've never needed to use my N810 as USB host. When I had to do file transfers, I used wifi (sometimes in ad-hoc mode).

EDIT: USB harddisk enclosures (http://www.usbgeek.com/prod_list.php?cat_id=002&cat=USB+HardDisk+Enclosure)

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 07:29 PM

don't take it as an offense pls, but you look a bit like a marketing guy, telling me what I need and not, what I might or not need in the future... they're feature missing which were in previous models, which i was looking forward for, that's it.What I do is provide alternative solutions for the harsh reality: no USB host mode in N900. If you want some other device which has it fine go buy that. :D

i don't own BT keyb and mouse, and buying those costs, even mose since you need batteries. I once had a BT mouse, but got tired of the batteries problems and switched back to a 'eternal' USB mouse.My SU-8W is portable and can do like 50 hours with its batteries. Also, I don't need it often, because my Nokia N810 had, my Nokia E71 has, and my Nokia N900 will have a good hardware keyboard. Maybe there are models which have a rechargable battery? And, when was 'once'?

i don't want a wifi router since i allready have a well working ethernet oneWell, you're living in the past, most people have some kind of WiFi WLAN nowadays. Maybe you can stick a USB WiFi stick into it and make it work even better, so you can use your N8x0 or N900 wireless. Then it is also more mobile...

a cable has lesser lag/errors problems and uses the available speed more efficientlyYeah, and a cable has to be attached all the time. You want tons of cables and things sticking on and around your mobile device? Well, I don't. The relevance for N900 is questionable.

it might seem crazy, since we're bombarded continuously with every kind of radiationsFor most people this seems crazy and is indeed of no concern. N900 also comes with 3G and GPS btw.

and the usb sd adapter isn't usable with the N900 (see where the sd slot is).Point taken. Other people could use a USB flash drive with SD card in it though. Or e-mail the data.

my digital camera uses SD cards, not microSD.SD <-> microSD converter.

EyeFi is a product more I should buy, and it's not really cheap.Agreed, it isn't cheap. Comfort comes with a price. For those who do professional photography (for which N900 on-board camera is obviously not good enough) it might be a good addon option.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, as I allready posted here: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=330738&postcount=89Thats about a hub with 4 USB2 connectors and provides Wireless USB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_usb).

try to find one in any shop online and post a link, thanks.http://usb.brando.com/55-in-1-bluetooth-card-reader-hub_p00280c036d015.html this one? It even supports all those card formats you were always afraid for you would one day maybe need to support it via an adapter ;)

Why is a simple USB hub + a BlueTooth dongle not suffice?

GeneralAntilles

09-21-2009, 07:30 PM

1) USB/RS-232 adapter

- Bluetooth: onboard

FireFly Bluetooth RS232 adaptor (http://www.rovingnetworks.com/firefly.php)

Matan

09-21-2009, 07:33 PM

Did you read this link? All this OTG HD can do is copy all pictures from a camera connected to it to the HD itself. How can this be useful for the N900?

BTW, all those disappointment threads seem to stem from one source. The N900 is a mobile phone, while a lot of people were expecting a hand held general purpose computer, like the 770, N800 and N810 are.

Texrat

09-21-2009, 07:36 PM

I find myself Thanking conflicting posts because there's so much good blended with bad. :p :D

The N900 is a mobile phone, while a lot of people were expecting a hand held general purpose computer, like the 770, N800 and N810 are.

And yet the appelation "mobile computer"...

qole

09-21-2009, 07:37 PM

Those who are saying that all I have to do is simply carry around a separate computer (e.g., qole) are correct, but that is exactly what I just said I am disappointed about.

Sure, but the N800 is a mighty small computer to carry around. Smaller than any optical drive I've seen... I just went back and checked, and your use case was a portable DVD drive. I bet the tablet (and charger) doesn't take up much extra space in the bag where you put the DVD player.

Again, I want to agree with you: no USB host mode sucks. But I'm trying to figure out what we can do now that we know that.

There are some edge cases, like pataphysician's very unusual circumstances, that will make it impossible for some people to upgrade to the N900.

But for most of us, there are not-so-terrible workarounds that will get us through until the next dream device that hits the shelves...

Matan

09-21-2009, 07:37 PM

FireFly Bluetooth RS232 adaptor (http://www.rovingnetworks.com/firefly.php)

I hope you realise that you suggest replacing a 2$ device with an 80$ device. I know that people that spend 600 Euro on a cellular phone seem like they have more money then sense, but it still looks a bit over the top.

Texrat

09-21-2009, 07:43 PM

Fun, isn't it?:)

I'm afraid to answer for fear it will cost me council votes. :p

(oh crap: pandering revealed. Strategy in jeopardy. Abort! Abort!)

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 07:46 PM

Alternatively you can use a HDD with USB OTG (http://www.dcresource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17045) (found with Google). If I understand correctly, it was only $18, without the HD itself. This review was written 3 years ago. I wonder what similar devices exist nowadays...I think that is something which would be a viable solution but this one you link to doesn't support USB host mode. With OTG they mean for 'on the go'; for when you are mobile. That is why the lithium ion battery is 'for OTG'. :D

NvyUs

09-21-2009, 07:47 PM

vinc17

09-21-2009, 07:52 PM

Did you read this link? All this OTG HD can do is copy all pictures from a camera connected to it to the HD itself. How can this be useful for the N900?
Replace "camera" by "N900". I don't know whether files can be copied the other way round, but it would be only a software problem, so that it could probably be solved. Also, I recall I found this via Google and there are probably similar devices with better software capabilities.

BruceL

09-21-2009, 07:53 PM

Again, I want to agree with you: no USB host mode sucks. But I'm trying to figure out what we can do now that we know that.

So, how can we test the "USB TESTMODE"? Is there anyone here who knows enough to write a script that would activate this TESTMODE? Any one with a N900 would would run it for us?

nashith

09-21-2009, 07:56 PM

vinc17

09-21-2009, 07:56 PM

I think that is something which would be a viable solution but this one you link to doesn't support USB host mode.
It does support USB host mode. Otherwise how can it work with a camera? The text also says: that work as a host for other digital devices.

lma

09-21-2009, 08:00 PM

And yet the appelation "mobile computer"...

Which means very little really. While it may be portable and contain a microprocessor, it's less useful as a general purpose computer than its predecessors despite the extra processing power. USB host/OTG is just the latest item in a long list of pre-existing features that we took for granted but have been removed from the N900/Fremantle.

fnordianslip

09-21-2009, 08:01 PM

This thread is kind of getting pointless same people just repeating there dissatisfaction over and over and not willing to budge and look at alternative solutions.
Its best to wait until people start getting the n900 in there hands and take a look and see what can be done on various levels to see if theres solution before outright thinking it'll never happen and getting mad

Well, unless the software hackery suggestions can be realised, there is no alternative to a functioning USB host mode for connecting USB devices to the N900, and therefore no way to budge.

If we are vocal enough about it now, maybe Nokia won't repeat their mistakes next time, although that won't make me feel better about the £500 for the N900.

To get over the USB charging issue coupled with the need for a powered hub, IMHO Nokia should have considered designing a battery powered USB hub as an accessory.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I'll enjoy my N900 when it arrives, but I will always be disappointed by this unwelcome anti-easter-egg.

qole

09-21-2009, 08:09 PM

So, how can we test the "USB TESTMODE"? Is there anyone here who knows enough to write a script that would activate this TESTMODE? Any one with a N900 would would run it for us?

If someone writes the code, I'm sure someone will be able to test it. But rigging up a power injector or powered hub for just a USB key is going to be pretty lame, and carrying a hub and battery pack around is almost as bad as an extra tablet....

NvyUs

09-21-2009, 08:10 PM

range

09-21-2009, 08:10 PM

Easy, the large n900 would have a regular nokia charger and not braindead usb charging, so the usb port would just be just that a usb port. Or you could have two usb ports one for charging and client mode and one for host. Personally I would prefer the regular old nokia charger as they are much faster at charging than crap usb charging, which is really only fine in my book, for small battery dumb devices.

That won't work if you want the device to be a phone *and* to be sold in the EU. Device manufacturers have decided on one standard way of charging: MicroUSB.

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 08:12 PM

It does support USB host mode. Otherwise how can it work with a camera? The text also says: that work as a host for other digital devices.Woops you're right, the reviewer has used an USB cable to put his digital camera on the device. That can only work if one of the two devices supports USB host mode.

The reviewer never replied though, and doesn't state the exact model. In the link provided in the article you get to see the specifications and it doesn't mention USB host mode or USB OTG or copying directly from digital camera to device via USB! The item is also out of stock but several alternatives from same brand exist see http://www.usbgeek.com and search for DigiMate

I found this review too on DealExtreme its of an older version but it also clearly states this device supports USB 2 host mode / OTG:

Host Mode: Back up/copy files from many different kinds of USB devices (such as digital camera, card reader, mp3 player, flash disk etc.) to the HDD by one touch WITHOUT a PC or laptop/notebook.
Device Mode (MSD Mode): It is a reliable USB 2.0 2.5" HDD enclosure
No external power required when used as a HDD case only (Device Mode)http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.639

So in host mode it would need external power, as expected.

Also, there is the issue of data integrety. Although that is inherent to USB. The reviewer said this:

There is only one thing making me a bit nervous. Even so that so far everything worked well, files were properly stored on Digi-Mate and available for download to PC – one can never be 100% sure and/or verify that the files were transferred OK. So you are not completely at ease when you erase your memory card to make room for more videos. It would be nice having an LCD on this gizmo and being able to verify the files and their size. As for the data transfer speed, about 25 to 28 MB/s when connected to a PC and about 4.5 MB/s when downloading from camera (same as downloading to PC).Oh, and the thing uses FAT32.

Architengi

09-21-2009, 08:17 PM

That won't work if you want the device to be a phone *and* to be sold in the EU. Device manufacturers have decided on one standard way of charging: MicroUSB.

What if someone wants to use the USB HOST (for let's say reading an USB flash memory or a CD/DVD drive) and at the same time the device needs charging?

Nokia should have think from the beginning to put 2 USB ports on this so-called "mobile computer"... :o

range

09-21-2009, 08:19 PM

Next device needs to have two micro USB ports. :D

Plus Firewire-800, ExpressCard 34 and ESATA! :p

pataphysician

09-21-2009, 08:21 PM

Are there actually people who wouldn't buy the n900 if it didn't have usb charging? I know some people want it, but would it actually be a deal breaker. one can easily create a "single" cable by taping a usb cable to the usb to nokia charging point cable, ca-100, so now you have one cable that's not very big, though it requires two free usb ports. Nokia also makes a cable, ca-126, with a single usb port to a nokia charger point and micro usb, which would only need one usb port on the pc, is there a problem with this straightforward solution?

While usb host is not important to many of people, it is an absolute deal breaker for some of us, whereas I can't really see that being true for usb charging.

BruceL

09-21-2009, 08:21 PM

If someone writes the code, I'm sure someone will be able to test it. But rigging up a power injector or powered hub for just a USB key is going to be pretty lame, and carrying a hub and battery pack around is almost as bad as an extra tablet....

It isn't just about carrying it, qole. A battery pack doesn't take maintenance. I don't have to update the software, figure out why it isn't booting, worry about battery life. It isn't merely that I don't want to carry something. I don't want to carry (and maintain) another COMPUTER.

If the TESTMODE hack works I'll be a happy guy. Does anyone know what a script to activate USB Testmode would look like?

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 08:23 PM

Well maybe there wasn't space available to do that, and there were time constrains, as pointed out various times throughout this thread.

Plus Firewire-800, ExpressCard 34 and ESATA! :pHDMI, pigeon protocol (RFC 1149), and remote detonator for battery!

when all the newbies was complaining about no portrait support out the box lot of the older community members was there slaughtering them.
now theres a feature missing what affects a lot of them more its ok to complain about n900 now hmmm. Theres a little bit of double standards around here.People have complained about

Lack of complete portrait mode support
Screen size downgraded
Lack official of BlueTooth DUN
Non-optional 3G
Non-optional keyboard
Focus on finger/touch instead of stylus
Lack of capacitive screen
Lack of multi touch
Lack of digital compass
Price
Lack of 2 USB ports, 2 SD ports
Lack of USB host mode / OTG
Lack of DRM (:D)
Waiting...And so on, and so on. There is always something to complain about. Such as complaining about complaining or "..but does it run Linux"... :D

There will always be people unhappy with some things about the device. But there are also many features which are applauded and make happy customers. You don't hear those voices too often though, but they're there, and when Nokia N900 ships they will be heard :cool:

JayOnThaBeat

09-21-2009, 08:23 PM

Alright, this thread is starting to suck now.

How about we let it sit until there is a solution. Going back and forth between "Dealbreaker! How dare they?" and "We don't need it, there are alternatives!" and "Let's wait and see!" is getting repetitive.

A moratorium until people have the device! A moratorium, I say!

:cool:

|||EDIT

Show your support of my decree by not replying.... thanks'ing will suffice ;)

BruceL

09-21-2009, 08:27 PM

There will always be people unhappy with some things about the device. But there are also many features which are applauded and make happy customers. You don't hear those voices too often though, but they're there, and when Nokia N900 ships they will be heard :cool:

Like mine. I am a HUGE fanboy. This is the first issue that has really gotten to me.

fnordianslip

09-21-2009, 08:27 PM

when all the newbies was complaining about no portrait support out the box lot of the older community members was there slaughtering them.
now theres a feature missing what affects a lot of them more its ok to complain about n900 now hmmm. Theres a little bit of double standards around here.

The thing is that YOU can fix that yourself by writing code, or failing that, someone else can. The same is true of MMS support, but we are totally reliant on Nokia to get the hardware right, and it seems that in this respect they have failed.

GeneralAntilles

09-21-2009, 08:29 PM

I hope you realise that you suggest replacing a 2$ device with an 80$ device. I know that people that spend 600 Euro on a cellular phone seem like they have more money then sense, but it still looks a bit over the top.

I'm suggesting a reasonable workaround to a poor situation. Take it or leave it.

Architengi

09-21-2009, 08:30 PM

Well maybe there wasn't space available to do that, and there were time constrains, as pointed out various times throughout this thread.

HDMI, pigeon protocol (RFC 1149), and remote detonator for battery!

People have complained about

Lack of complete portrait mode support
Screen size downgraded
Lack official of BlueTooth DUN
Non-optional 3G
Non-optional keyboard
Focus on finger/touch instead of stylus
Lack of capacitive screen
Lack of multi touch
Lack of digital compass
Price
Lack of 2 USB ports, 2 SD ports
Lack of USB host mode / OTG
Lack of DRM (:D)
Waiting...And so on, and so on. There is always something to complain about. Such as complaining about complaining or "..but does it run Linux"... :D

There will always be people unhappy with some things about the device. But there are also many features which are applauded and make happy customers. You don't hear those voices too often though, but they're there, and when Nokia N900 ships they will be heard :cool:

>>>> the device / phone to be sold in the EU.
>>>> POLITICIANS have decided on one standard way of charging: MicroUSB.

What if someone wants to use the USB HOST (for let's say reading an USB flash memory or a CD/DVD drive) and at the same time the device needs charging?

Nokia should have think from the beginning to put 2 USB ports on this so-called "mobile computer"... :o

I want to ADD something to the list above:

Can the second USB port be USB HOST *and* pen sharpener instead of being USB charger? :D

pataphysician

09-21-2009, 08:31 PM

That won't work if you want the device to be a phone *and* to be sold in the EU. Device manufacturers have decided on one standard way of charging: MicroUSB.

That agreement is not legally binding, and there are exceptions allowed for unusual devices, I would think usb host as a feature, which can't be implemented currently with usb charging would qualify.

range

09-21-2009, 08:31 PM

They could have made it work, but for politics.

Politics defined by the USB standardization guys.

Texrat

09-21-2009, 08:31 PM

fnordianslip

09-21-2009, 08:34 PM

Can the second USB port be USB HOST *and* pen sharpener instead of being USB charger? :D
Oh yes, because I want my pen to be be both mightier AND sharper than the sword, just to be on the safe side.

Now, "I'm feeling stabby!"

Crashdamage

09-21-2009, 08:36 PM

I just don't really understand all this angst over the lack of a single feature. Because I don't need it, I guess, and I realize that means nothing to those who do. But I think mostly I just have different expectations for the N900. I mean, just because the N900 is called a "mobile computer' I didn't expect it to be able to do everything my home Linux box or mini-laptop can do. I do expect it to be able to do most - but not all - the things they do, without wires and from my pocket. My truck and my wife's Mini Cooper S will both get you there, but the truck will carry more stuff while the Mini does it quicker and makes it fun.

And that's the difference to me. The N900 is meant to be mobile, far more so than even a netbook or tablet, used totally wireless and utterly portable, except for charging or hooked up as a mass storage device now and then. To me, that's what it's intended and designed for - totally portable computing, and hooking up DVD drives, external HDDs, etc. etc. are not in my definition of totally portable pocket computing. That's what desktops and laptops are for. Each to it's purpose.

If I want to do more than the N900 was intended to then I fully expect to have to find hacks or alternate methods to do those things. I wouldn't be mad at the device designers because I'm expecting more of it than it was designed to do or standards they didn't write.

The N900 won't do everything my desktop box or laptop does and that's ok. It's still a computer - a very, very mobile computer.

range

09-21-2009, 08:38 PM

While it may be portable and contain a microprocessor, it's less useful as a general purpose computer than its predecessors despite the extra processing power. USB host/OTG is just the latest item in a long list of pre-existing features that we took for granted but have been removed from the N900/Fremantle.

Umm. Except the USB problem I haven't found any feature which was taken away yet. Care to elaborate?

D-Pad? Two SD-Cards (which the N810 didn't have either)? 3,5" screen?

Architengi

09-21-2009, 08:39 PM

The title:

"N900 will not allow USB OTG!"

should actually be read:

"N900 will not allow USB OMG!!!!!!" :confused:

Architengi

09-21-2009, 08:47 PM

Guys I told you I am on the fence with this device...
after the rumors that it cannot cook nor wash dishes... but this USB mising pen sharpener is clear from Mars is an earth-quacker / dealbreaker ... I want to officially declare a break on my engadgment with this device... :D

gerbick

09-21-2009, 09:02 PM

I've been following this thread... and I remember getting yelled at by many members about how Bluetooth OBEX wasn't a big deal to me. Yet it was to many.

Apparently USB OTG is a big deal... and again it's not such a big deal to me either.

I mean, sure. the N810 can do it, but there was no guarantee that the N900 would. The N800 had dual normal sized SD chips... the N810 had that funky miniSD ordeal... and only one of them.

But... it does make me question the whole "mobile computer" term now. What does that fully mean by Nokia's standards and not opinion?

A whole lot of freaking out about something that's been possibly worked around at least 3 times in this thread alone. More soon down the road... I'm pretty sure of it.

Thesandlord

09-21-2009, 09:13 PM

Listen to JayOnThaBeat!

WAIT TILL THE N900 COMES OUT!

Then we can see if host can be enabled through a hack.

If it can't, then fine. If it can, then good!

If anyone with a n900 can enable host mode, or try to, please please please do.

This is not a "deal-breaker" for me, but it is important.

Edit: Seriously Jay, I messed up your username by one letter...

RobbH

09-21-2009, 09:38 PM

Many thanks for this thread. The way I expect my mobile computer to exchange files with my desktop and other computers is via flash drive. If host mode can be hacked into the N900 or implemented later, that'll be great. But for now I'm not interested in elaborate workarounds. I've cancelled my preorder.

thecursedfly

09-21-2009, 09:48 PM

http://usb.brando.com/55-in-1-bluetooth-card-reader-hub_p00280c036d015.html this one? It even supports all those card formats you were always afraid for you would one day maybe need to support it via an adapter ;)

Why is a simple USB hub + a BlueTooth dongle not suffice?

(sorry for answering like 3 pages after your post) You seem to continue with the same mistake: this one is just a USB hub with incorporated bluetooth dongle and card reader (a union of 1 (http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1734/000002l.jpg), 2 (http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5919/kingston20media20reader.jpg), 3 (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9638/blueusbbluetooth1.jpg) with just one connection cable). For the rest it still needs to be attached to the USB port (see USB cable between images) of a Host device (pc/laptop/N810).
What we may need (if the bluetooth limitation is good enough for the others), if I understood well of course, is:
N900 -> [bluetooth] -> (selfpowered) Bluetooth Hub with female USB port -> USB flash drive (or any other USB slave device)

for the rest, pointless to discuss about air... ^^

find a solution to the USB host thingie, and in a couple of months max, a N900 will be mine... ^^
otherwise, time will tell.

I vote for silence till we have any real possible solution... bye ;)

Dead1nside

09-21-2009, 09:50 PM

I'm not ragging on Nokia about this because it's another feature that I'll use quite rarely. However I simply don't see why they keep missing all these features off, especially if it was in the platform previously?

vinc17

09-21-2009, 09:52 PM

The way I expect my mobile computer to exchange files with my desktop and other computers is via flash drive.
Why using a flash drive when you can transfer the files directly (by USB or wifi)?

vinc17

09-21-2009, 09:54 PM

However I simply don't see why they keep missing all these features off, especially if it was in the platform previously?
To implement new features?

JayOnThaBeat

09-21-2009, 10:12 PM

Listen to JayOnThaBeat!

WAIT TILL THE N900 COMES OUT!

Listen to Thesandlord when he says to listen to me!!!!

:D

bocaJ

09-21-2009, 10:15 PM

vkv.raju

09-21-2009, 10:25 PM

I'm not a nokia engineer, but my guess is that at least part of the reason for not including support is power mangement. Yes, they could have included the needed controllers to meet the USB compliance specs, but the engineers might have come back and said "if you do this, given existing battery tech, weight and dimension requirements, we will not be able to give you a full day of use."

Certainly, a lot of people here will legitimately say "this is a deal breaker for me" and mean it (unlike the compass issue, where I'm a bit disapointed, but more I think people are just blowing off steam). At the same time, if every review is saying this doesn't get nearly a day of usage, a greater number of people, with equal legitimacy, would say "this is a deal breaker".

That being said, I'm still on the fence. I've got the money, just trying to decide whether to shell out. Mostly the issue is, "hey, it's a lot of money". If Quim or GA or someone comes back and says "voila! 100% successful workaround!" I'll almost certainly pull the trigger. Without that, I'm not sure.

People will not be using this feature for whole day like what you think. It is just for the few minutes (or hours on some days) that people want to use this OTG. And most likely, this usage will be more when they are away from their computers.

And now to the battery point, I clearly don't see how this would be a problem or an issue. People who don't require it anyways are not extra-draining the battery. And for the rest, they know what they are into. No brainer!

BruceL

09-21-2009, 10:32 PM

I don't think that the thread should go silent. Instead, I think we should work toward looking for a solution. The question about how a script to test TESTMODE may be written is out. Perhaps someone can shed some light on that.

In addition to working toward a solution, we need to keep listening to people's disappointment. I wanted to rant before I could think about finding a solution and other people do too.

It is good to have the listen-to-disappointment thread and the find-a-solution thread be the same thread because 1) the solution can help with disappointment and 2) disappointment can help push for a solution. They are different sides of the same coin.

I'm on the find-a-solution side now, but if you're disappointed/angry whatever, community falls apart when people don't express their negative ideas as well as the positive. Let's not fall into "group think" whenever there is a problem.

Now... Any ideas on what a test TESTMODE script would look like? Would it call the OS? Use DBUS? Need a special lib file? I don;t know, but I bet someone has at least an idea.

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 10:33 PM

[...] I'm not ragging on Nokia about this because it's another feature that I'll use quite rarely. However I simply don't see why they keep missing all these features off, especially if it was in the platform previously?

[...] And now to the battery point, I clearly don't see how this would be a problem or an issue. People who don't require it anyways are not extra-draining the battery. And for the rest, they know what they are into. No brainer!

http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020830.html

vkv.raju

09-21-2009, 10:37 PM

http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020830.html

I was thinking more in the terms of why not 2 microUSB's?

JayOnThaBeat

09-21-2009, 10:38 PM

Like I suggested, we should wait til a decent-sized handful of people have the device in their hands.

You can't exactly fix it without having it to begin with, can you?

I don't think that the thread should go silent. Instead, I think we should work toward looking for a solution. The question about how a script to test TESTMODE may be written is out. Perhaps someone can shed some light on that.

In addition to working toward a solution, we need to keep listening to people's disappointment. I wanted to rant before I could think about finding a solution and other people do too.

It is good to have the listen-to-disappointment thread and the find-a-solution thread be the same thread because 1) the solution can help with disappointment and 2) disappointment can help push for a solution. They are different sides of the same coin.

I'm on the find-a-solution side now, but if you're disappointed/angry whatever, community falls apart when people don't express their negative ideas as well as the positive. Let's not fall into "group think" whenever there is a problem.

Now... Any ideas on what a test TESTMODE script would look like? Would it call the OS? Use DBUS? Need a special lib file? I don;t know, but I bet someone has at least an idea.

vkv.raju

09-21-2009, 10:45 PM

Like I suggested, we should wait til a decent-sized handful of people have the device in their hands.

You can't exactly fix it without having it to begin with, can you?

Then what should I do with my pre-order?

BruceL

09-21-2009, 10:46 PM

Like I suggested, we should wait til a decent-sized handful of people have the device in their hands.

You can't exactly fix it without having it to begin with, can you?

Some people have it. If they can verify that a fix would work then I (and many others) wouldn't have to cancel our pre-orders. If I don't have to, I do not want to wait until it is released, THEN another few weeks for people to try the fix. I REALLY don't want to cancel, but I can't justify that much $ if it doesn't solve my problem.

bocaJ

09-21-2009, 10:56 PM

I am not an engineer, but I think this document might help:

http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/USB_OTG_and_EH_2-0.pdf (pdf warning)

Someone smarter than me can read this maybe.

allnameswereout

09-21-2009, 11:31 PM

(sorry for answering like 3 pages after your post)You seem to continue with the same mistake: this one is just a USB hub with incorporated bluetooth dongle and card readerThat is the same as:

[quotte]N900 -> [bluetooth] -> (selfpowered) Bluetooth Hub with female USB port -> USB flash drive (or any other USB slave device)[/quote]

find a solution to the USB host thingie, and in a couple of months max, a N900 will be mine... ^^
otherwise, time will tell.See http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=331052&postcount=195 & its parents. This device supports USB host mode.

But frankly.. I think you (and some other folks) are not doing your home work. Because if it does not matter how much power the device draws (it uses an adapter anyway) then we're quickly done, and welcome to embedded world of Linux.

For example a Soekris 5501 can have SATA or PATA (and has CF too). You'd have internal storage and use N900 to connect to it. It doesn't have PCMCIA though (but some other versions do). It has a USB port and could use host most (but not charge device over USB). It has MiniPCI and MiniPCI Express too. It could run *NIX or whatever you want...

http://www.metrix.net/pcmcia-to-usb-20-adapter-for-stompbox-ii-and-soekris-4521-p-69.html

or this

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/HP-DreamScreen-100/

or a settopbox (I bet my Philips DVR would work. Not sure it has USB, have to check.)

or the predecessor of this

http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Linutop-3/

or this HDD enclosure with USB OTG (has even on-board battery?!)

http://www.acesuppliers.com/Supplier_Company/External-Enclosures---USB-OTG-Enclosure-for-2-5-IDE_Product_Showroom_12470.html

And thats found with 5 min searching, and they're a bit overkill, so I'm sure you can do much better.

nashith

09-21-2009, 11:37 PM

I foolishly thought I was smarter than you, and subsequently tried to read that.

ouch :confused:
The specification http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/USB_OTG_and_EH_2-0.pdf has a revision as late as May 8, 09. And it also mentions hardware changes to enable charging via USB. I am no expert but there is this "Targeted Host" mode, which simply saying allows something in between OTG and EH, with certains limitations on what type of devices it supports.

Texrat

09-21-2009, 11:50 PM

The specification http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/USB_OTG_and_EH_2-0.pdf has a revision as late as May 8, 09. And it also mentions hardware changes to enable charging via USB. I am no expert but there is this "Targeted Host" mode, which simply saying allows something in between OTG and EH, with certains limitations on what type of devices it supports.

Which is right where we are with current tablets, more or less.

ossipena

09-22-2009, 01:24 AM

my digital camera uses SD cards, not microSD. only ways to transfer photos are: USB or SD reader.

haha seriously :D

if this is a problem, i suggest thinking it again as long as it takes so you realize something....

allnameswereout

09-22-2009, 01:25 AM

http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/USB_for_Portable_Devices_FINAL.pdf

Page 7 illustrates 3 scenarios. But doesn't say all 3 may be available using 1 USB port.

Page 8 shows a Nokia N810 :D

Page 11 shows a car radio. If that supports USB OTG.

Really weird. Maybe the update to the specification came too late for N900.

From the other PDF, here is definition of "Targeted Host"

As computing resources have become less expensive, the line between PCs and other products has
blurred. Today many devices that are not PCs in the classic sense have a need to connect directly to
peripherals: Printers connect directly with cameras, for example, or mobile phones may need to connect
to USB headsets.
These non-PCs have the computing resources to manage a USB host function, but they need to function
in ways that differ from standard PC hosts. Although they will provide host capability for some devices,
it's unreasonable to require them to support the full range of USB peripherals. For example, connecting
a camera to a printer makes a lot of sense, but the printer manufacturers may not think it is quite as
important for the printer to support a USB GPS dongle. Because this is new territory for USB, developers
need a way to understand what USB functionality they need to provide and what functionality is not
required.

This specification defines these non-PC hosts as Targeted Hosts. A Targeted Host is a USB host that
supports a specific, targeted set of peripherals. The developer of each Targeted Host product defines
the set of supported peripherals on a Targeted Peripheral List (TPL). A Targeted Host needs to provide
only the power, bus speeds, data flow types, etc., that the peripherals on its TPL require.

If you go to 2 Operational overview in the PDF it says

An OTG device is required to have one, and only one USB connector: a Micro-AB receptacle as defined
in [Micro-USB1.01]. This receptacle is capable of accepting either a Micro-A plug or a Micro-B plug
attached to any of the legal cables and adapters defined in [Micro-USB1.01].

[...]

An Embedded Host is required to have one or more Standard-A receptacles as defined in [USB2.0].
Optionally an Embedded Host may also contain one or more Type-B receptacles but these must be
implemented such that the user is unlikely confuse the EH with a USB hub. Since the Standard-A plug
does not contain an ID pin, an EH is not able to automatically power the USB bus on plug insertion
unless ADP is also supported.So, seems according to the spec it is not allowed to have 1 USB OTG and 1 USB EH connector (for charging the device).

I'll read the rest some other time because I gotta go on the go.

qole

09-22-2009, 01:45 AM

Good news, the N800 and the N900 make a nice little wifi adhoc network that can be used for sshfs and copying files... So no need to worry about BT speeds.

debernardis

09-22-2009, 01:55 AM

My manly bag is going to become a manly trolley ;) However, if this is the only solution by now...

GeneralAntilles

09-22-2009, 02:35 AM

qole

09-22-2009, 02:37 AM

My manly bag is going to become a manly trolley ;) However, if this is the only solution by now...

No, it will stay the same size. The N900 will replace your phone.

It will get a lot smaller as your colleagues all start using e-mail or cloud services to share files, instead of USB drives.

deadmalc

09-22-2009, 02:42 AM

I love Ethernet too, but seriously, take a look at something like the Cisco/Linksys WRT54GL. It has a Linux OS that can be flashed to a custom enhanced version; it's a great Ethernet router; plus it does rock-solid, secure wireless.

I'd definitely agree with that I flashed mine with x-wrt and it's much, much better!

http://x-wrt.org

Take a look!

joppu

09-22-2009, 03:18 AM

capacity. HD material will run you 5-20GB per hour, so 32GB is not an unfillable resource (actually, if 32GB was enough, I would not bother with the tablet at all, I'd just buy a 32GB SD :) )

Too bad N900 won't probably play back 720p smoothly.

nashith

09-22-2009, 03:27 AM

http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/USB_for_Portable_Devices_FINAL.pdf

So, seems according to the spec it is not allowed to have 1 USB OTG and 1 USB EH connector (for charging the device).

I'll read the rest some other time because I gotta go on the go.

I read from somewhere that Iriver H340 (international version) have two separate USB connectors. 1 for Host mode and 1 for USB peripheral mode.

pycage

09-22-2009, 04:10 AM

allnameswereout

09-22-2009, 04:43 AM

Even though Nokia managed to put everything imaginable minus the compass (Bluetooth, 3G, FM transmitter & receiver, IR transceiver, keyboard, stylus, GPS, WiFi, touchscreen, USB charging, MicroSD slot, 5M camera with LED-flash, TV-out) into one device, people still find some missing feature.
It's always like that and will always be like that. More stuff would have resulted in a larger and more expensive device. A production unit is always a compomise between what's possible and what's reasonable for marketing.
But the N900 isn't the end. More Maemo devices will certainly follow, lacking some of the above, but having USB-OTG e.g. There will be choice. Just not yet. :)There is already choice. This isn't the first Maemo device. ;)

I read from somewhere that Iriver H340 (international version) have two separate USB connectors. 1 for Host mode and 1 for USB peripheral mode.True. Both H320 and H340 international version. The North American version requires hardware and software mod.

There are two hardware types for each model. These hardware types are commonly referred to by the locations they are sold. The USA models, predominantly sold in North America, have a built in DRM key, which lets them play music with Microsoft DRM. The International models, sold everywhere but North America, do not handle DRM-restricted content and have the HOST port linked to the battery, which allows them to do USB On-The-Go. The International models also support limited xvid (10 fps) video playback.

North American models can be modified to support USB OTG by means of a small internal soldering job, an external modified cable, or a USB transfer box. International firmware is also required.However remember this device is from 2004 while the revision of the specification I quoted from is from may 2009. I think the H3x0 also has 2 miniUSB instead of microSD; one miniUSB_A and one miniUSB_B. I don't have the Iriver H340 anymore since I gave it away a few months ago, so I can't test USB OTG on it. Never imagined I would either. Btw, some digital cameras also support USB OTG.

PS: @ andree, the USB spec update, and the fact the device charges over USB. Please read the whole thread.

andree

09-22-2009, 04:53 AM

I'm thinking about the whole usb stuff right now - and a question came into my mind... What's so different about n900's, that it can't use regular OTG?

From what I read, it's completely normal to have a OTG device, that once acts as client (thus consuming power from usb cable = e.g. charging own batteries), and as a usb host another time (=e.g. powering usb flash stick)... That's the whole point of OTG, or am I wrong?

I can't quite imagine, what nokia guys did with the hardware, when the TI 3430 supports OTG out-of-box (according to specs)... :-/

Now... Any ideas on what a test TESTMODE script would look like? Would it call the OS? Use DBUS? Need a special lib file? I don;t know, but I bet someone has at least an idea.

If the whole solution is about telling chip to set some config bit, it'd be a matter of a few lines in kernel driver/module for that device - if there is a way to tell the chip to do so, of course... But you can't actually write anything until you have the hardware in hands...

Matan

09-22-2009, 04:59 AM

That is the same as:

N900 -> [bluetooth] -> (selfpowered) Bluetooth Hub with female USB port -> USB flash drive (or any other USB slave device)

No. It is not the same. You don't understand how USB works, please stop talking about this.

A USB hub does not allow to devices (BT dongle and flash drive) to talk between them only device <-> host. There is no host in your scenario.

or this HDD enclosure with USB OTG (has even on-board battery?!)

http://www.acesuppliers.com/Supplier_Company/External-Enclosures---USB-OTG-Enclosure-for-2-5-IDE_Product_Showroom_12470.html

And thats found with 5 min searching, and they're a bit overkill, so I'm sure you can do much better.

No. This is not even close to an overkill. When you connect a hard disk to the N810 with USB host mode, you can do whatever you want with it. The N810 controls the connection.

When you connect this (or any similar) device to the N900, the HD controls the connection. Programs on the N900 can't access the HD (and not even the internal 32GB). All you can do is press a button and have some files from the 32GB copied to the HD. You can't even control which files will be copied. Then you need to count beeps to know if it worked or not, since there is no way you can check.

There is nothing in this device (or in any of the other devices you suggested) that might be considered a replacement for USB host functionality.

GeneralAntilles

09-22-2009, 05:05 AM

There is nothing in this device (or in any of the other devices you suggested) that might be considered a replacement for USB host functionality.

How about a cake pony? I hear lcuk has cake ponies.

attila77

09-22-2009, 05:19 AM

Too bad N900 won't probably play back 720p smoothly.

I might have been unclear. I do this with my N810 and I don't watch the video on the NIT - just use it to offload recordings to a HDD.

PS The N900 playback quality will depend how well we can use the DSP and other extensions - the OMAP34340 should be very capable of 720p if the extensions are fully utilized.

allnameswereout

09-22-2009, 05:51 AM

There is nothing in this device (or in any of the other devices you suggested) that might be considered a replacement for USB host functionality.Not even a N800 or Soekris? Zomg the world is collapsing! :eek:

ruskie

09-22-2009, 06:13 AM

This thread should be added a prefix: Incredibly silly because after a few pages it does get there quickly.

I'm buying this for completly other reasons than having USB-OTG etc.

That said:

"Living in the past because no WiFi(or don't want it)" - a) unsecure b) tedious to setup c) unable to debug Air[TM] ERROR d) unreliable

"Using Serial<>BT" - I find this an excelent idea. Makes it easy to not need crawling around etc. The one downside I see is: farraday cages - a lot of those racks are more or less near such so it would be rather difficult I think to get through.

"Alternative to flash dongles" - a flash dongle that uses a microsd is what I would have expected the usb dongles to be from the start. Sadly none of the manufacturers bothered with it. I tend to have with me atleast 2 microsd cards with adapters for minisd and plain sd and a smallish microsd or plain sd card reader. The problem is when someone just wants for you to copy things from their key to whatever device. I would make it clear I expect only such and such format(considering what mail I autoreject just due to attachments this wouldn't be much of a prob for me). Not to mention all the possible filesystems etc. I don't carry around anything FAT formated.

So yes might suck, might be hackable but the main reason I want this device is:
It's a portable device I can use as a dumb terminal and has a phone bolted on.

I'm not a heavy phone user so the first bit is for me the big deal.

allnameswereout

09-22-2009, 06:25 AM

"Living in the past because no WiFi(or don't want it)" - a) unsecureMwah. Instead of WPA2 you could run a VPN (OpenVPN, SSH, IPsec) over it.

"Using Serial<>BT" - I find this an excelent idea. Makes it easy to not need crawling around etc. The one downside I see is: farraday cagesTrue, my suggestion is not meant for long distance through the server room, but it still makes the N900 'mobile in the hand' so to say. Ie. you can perform a pirouette without tripping over a cable. And given some devices are only accessable via RS232 its either RS232 or RS232 <-> USB/BT/??? adapter. Although the issue I thought of was the insecurity of BlueTooth.

"Alternative to flash dongles" - a flash dongle that uses a microsd is what I would have expected the usb dongles to be from the start.****, I cannot agree more.

Sadly none of the manufacturers bothered with it.Almost none :)

vinc17

09-22-2009, 07:07 AM

I read from somewhere that Iriver H340 (international version) have two separate USB connectors. 1 for Host mode and 1 for USB peripheral mode.
Miutech's HDPC (http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Miutech-luxury-HDPC/) will have 2 separate USB connectors too. And Ethernet! But it's a bit larger than the N810.

deadmalc

09-22-2009, 07:13 AM

Mwah. Instead of WPA2 you could run a VPN (OpenVPN, SSH, IPsec) over it.

Or if you are truly paranoid WPA2 "enterprise" (certificates) with openvpn.

Yes I really am _that_ paranoid! I've even thought about getting that anti wifi paint for my house! lol

vinc17

09-22-2009, 07:19 AM

When you connect this (or any similar) device to the N900, the HD controls the connection.
Perhaps from a low-level point of view. But you can have protocols to do whatever you want, i.e. this is a software (firmware) only problem. FYI, I could connect my Zaurus (USB client) to my laptop (USB host) and control everything from my Zaurus. More precisely, I had an IP connection via USB between the two devices.

ruskie

09-22-2009, 07:22 AM

Mwah. Instead of WPA2 you could run a VPN (OpenVPN, SSH, IPsec) over it.

And you're back to step 2... tedious setup ;) And of course you might have the horror of having one of those wifi cards that just loves to randomly bring down the entire system.

RobbH

09-22-2009, 07:26 AM

Why using a flash drive when you can transfer the files directly (by USB or wifi)?

You know, I really don't have to justify my preference. It's not inherently "right" and you might even be able to define it as "wrong", but it's still my preference and that's what I'll base my purchasing decision on.

But, since you ask: I have a 16 GB card in my pocket computer, and a 32 GB flash drive in my pocket. Obviously, the flash drive can hold more than the pocket computer. Sometimes I want to access files on the flash drive. Do you seriously think I would choose to go to a desktop computer, transfer the files I need from the flash drive to the desktop, then from the desktop (DIRECTLY! -- as you put it) to the pocket computer?

Thanks, but I'll wait for a pocket computer that actually fits my needs, rather than adapting my work to a poorly designed (in terms of meeting my needs) pocket computer.

YoDude

09-22-2009, 07:43 AM

Yes, I agree. It would have been a good bonus feature - but if it's permanently disabled in hardware, people whining online are not going to make it magically appear... ;)
HOWEVER...

At least the publicly available OMAP35x (similar to but not exactly the same used in N900) technical reference manual lists USB2.0 TESTMODE register. It appears that it could be used to force the controller into a specific mode by software, regardless of the ID-pin or connected devices.

The N900 might not deliver power to the port but other than that I still believe the support might be doable by software hacks.

I have also believed that support might be doable by software hacks. Thanks for providing some tech info.

...and

... (It's like dumping your girlfriend of 2+ years for a new, hotter girl, only to find out that she wont do the *same things* your old girlfriend did.)

That^ would suck...

...or not. :p

***

What wasn't very clear to me in all this discusion is:

Can the N900 simultaniously charge and transfer data when connected to a desktop or other computer via USB?