Help support Automatic Screen Rotation (Univeral Portrait support) for the N900

[christexaport]

THIS BRAINSTORM IDEA (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/add_universal_support_for_asr-automatic_screen_rotation-throughout_the_ui-002/?solution=create_a_new_mechanism_to_open_the_telep hone_app) is to get ASR (automatic screen rotation) throughout the entire N900 UI.

Please show your support for this idea by commenting or posting any possible solutions. If you haven't yet, you must first RE-register to post in the brainstorm section. (I know, but you must...) There has been plenty of ruckus and debate behind this requested feature, so I know the supporters are out there. At least comment to show support for the idea. I'm sure one of the industrious developers will show up sooner or later.

....theme song to "Jeopardy" begins playing

I made a duplicate brainstorm idea of the same content with no responses, but the current one has two solutions from me. Please ignore the blank one, and if anyone knows how to delete the idea, let me know.

[christexaport]

now to see if anyone wakes up...

[f(x)]

christexaport: Start any complex program in your computer where it fits nicely with your screen resolution (complex in UI) now stare at it for 5 mins.
Now imagine how bad or how the visible area are going to be cut to fit it within half of that resolution.
You might consider blend or even open office as an examples for your wild imagination.

After all, I think this might even give a better idea about calling n900 Mobile Computer. & Trust me if you ever tried now days programs with 640x480 res you will feel the PAIN!

Using scroll as a solution wont be good & forcing many rules in the GUI won't support developers either.
I suggest you be happy with whats n900 can offer you

[christexaport]

FYI, I use the Nokia N97, and apps manage to rotate at a resolution of 360x640, and the web and mobile experience on the N97 is the best on any touchscreen mobile with Flash support. I don't find it bad at all. It may look better in landscape, but the tradeoff of having a free hand while on the move outweigh it, in my opinion.

But there we have it! Just what I figured... Those that don't have any interest in ASR whatsoever will troll and try to discourage those that do. Just wanted to see how fast it'd happen.

Read the thread title. PLEASE DON'T post here if you DON'T have an interest in having ASR on the N900 in the future. You're free to make a thread in support of NOT allowing it, but I'm trying to gather supporters, not dissidents.

Please don't disrupt the focus of the thread. I don't want this to turn into a debate.

[somedude]

Count me in.

[linuxeventually]

I don't think bumping every old thread is going to help your cause:

http://lookpic.com/i/599/YA9KWLFT.png

-_- Most of the major devs don't seem to be interested in this, pointing to Nokia's half-hearted portrait mode support. Best course would be to ask those in the community that worked on the hacked up kernel that does screen-rotation to help do the same for the next-gen devices.

As you can see the thread asking for portrait mode justification, there is a great divide between power users and devs here on this topic.

I use the rotation-enabled kernel on one of my N810 installs but it's quite screwy. There are also fake portrait mode programs like AlmostReal TI calculator emulator.

I guess someone is going to just have to do it (and not worth it for the community until the device is released and thus Fremantle "finalized") because begging hasn't worked so far.

[christexaport]

linuxeventually, I'm just doing all that I can do. What else could I do? I'd go door to door if I had addresses. Bumping those threads may not seem like a good idea to you, but it got you here, and your advice is good, so I'm already happy with the results. Now I need to know something from you:

Who are the developers in the community that worked on the hacked up kernel that does screen-rotation, or were involved in creating apps that feature ASR? Please let me know. I'll do all the leg work.

[Jason404]

There are certainly some types of apps that would be nicer in portrait mode. A dictaphone app that is quick and easy to activate, is something that I would like to see.

[christexaport]

There are certainly some types of apps that would be nicer in portrait mode. A dictaphone app that is quick and easy to activate, is something that I would like to see.

I'm not looking for apps that should support it, I'm talking about the entire UI, like the dashboard and desktops. There is a thread about particular apps. I'm talking about the rotation like that present in the N97, the closest thing you can compare to the N900. The entire device works in either orientation.

[f(x)]

Why I felt that if i just post that you will bring a symbian topic to me.
Symbian is using a really really limited user interface. In other word, this environment can be easily predicated and shifted the way you like.

Shouting on me to read the thread is a troll in itself! I don't blindly click on a thread and start talking useless on them & I checked your brainstorm before posting mine to see if you actually had an acceptable solution which you weren't.

It is nice to post about your wishes , but you should even consider the limits you are dealing with.

Back to enlighten you more, I am not going to ask you develop me a program, I will ask you to open Paint and draw me a graphical user interface for a program you can think about it in with respecting to the way windows UI act. Now try to do the same with limiting your self with symbian UI. Now you will see why its easy to rotate the screen with symbian than n900.

[Thesandlord]

N810 and N800 can rotate everything with xrandr, and it all works fine. If an app is messed up rotated, just "unrotate" the display. Simple.

[f(x)]

@Thesandlord, I think he want an automatic rotation in iPhone/Symbian style

[NvyUs]

ffs stop trying to kill some ones passion for making Maemo better while offering no real arguments why its not possible.
if you dont like the ideas theres no need to give the threads activity by posting in them simple as that.
this sort of thing is happening way too much when some one trys to start ideas or asks for unsupported features, if certain people get annoyed by it guess what its only going to get worse when N900 is launched so get used to it.

[f(x)]

ffs stop trying to kill some ones passion for making Maemo better while offering no real arguments why its not possible.
if you dont like the ideas theres no need to give the threads activity by posting in them simple as that.
this sort of thing is happening way too much when some one trys to start ideas or asks for unsupported features, if certain people get annoyed by it guess what its only going to get worse when N900 is launched so get used to it.
Who told you its unsupported feature? The only thing that isn't supported is the rotating mechanism. How would rotate every single element in GUI to fit the rotated mode while keeping everything visible and use-able.

There is already an active thread talking about this and he decided to start a new one?! (He is even in that thread!)
I didn't post here to discourage anyone ,but to give more reason why its currently isn't possible (Which by harmattan is more likely to happen then now) and no need to say that I am not against this idea (as actually people normally handling the phone with one hand)

By the way if you need to see problem from a graphical way, I wont mind making some picture to show what I am talking about in a better way.

[christexaport]

Why I felt that if i just post that you will bring a symbian topic to me.
Symbian is using a really really limited user interface. In other word, this environment can be easily predicated and shifted the way you like.
Well nothing's easy. I don't think developers should only handle the simple stuff, either. But I see some of your point. That's why I started this thread, so those that want it and have a desire to work on implementing it can meet and work on it here.

Shouting on me to read the thread is a troll in itself! I don't blindly click on a thread and start talking useless on them & I checked your brainstorm before posting mine to see if you actually had an acceptable solution which you weren't.
I apologize. I wasn't trying to yell, just emphasize the purpose of the thread. I have met much opposition on this subject, and despite users wanting it, developers for the most part don't, so I need those that do to work together. I was annoying the ones who don't and getting nowhere before.

Now notice the thread said,"HELP SUPPORT asr", not debate about it or speak against it. I'm just asking you to honor the thread purpose and please try to stay on topic.

Thank you for viewing my brainstorm. You should know that while I consider myself pretty tech savvy, my developer skills are nonexistent (I do a little Basic, that's it), and I only speak from an end user perspective. I'm doing the best I can.

If you have any skills whatsoever in writing code or working in the software development process, please submit any possible solutions to the issue, no matter how hard they may be to implement. It would really help. I'm looking for insight, and even if you don't like my idea, comment on the brainstorm and give us another perspective. They are welcome there.

It is nice to post about your wishes , but you should even consider the limits you are dealing with.
I'll leave that to the developers. Or do you think only those with developer skills should be submitting brainstorm ideas? I felt that might be the best course, believe it or not. I don't think any of the developers will ever take a normal user seriously. They haven't so far, not one.

Back to enlighten you more, I am not going to ask you develop me a program, I will ask you to open Paint and draw me a graphical user interface for a program you can think about it in with respecting to the way windows UI act. Now try to do the same with limiting your self with symbian UI. Now you will see why its easy to rotate the screen with symbian than n900.
Well, I don't have time to be drawing, and I won't right now, but I will tell you, my Windows PC's screen rotates, and the portrait display looks pretty good on it, so I don't see your point.

But I appreciate your input nonetheless. Maybe my experience doesn't lend itself to doing this. I just don't know how else things will ever get done otherwise, so this is what I'm going to do until something else materializes.

[christexaport]

Who told you its unsupported feature? The only thing that isn't supported is the rotating mechanism. How would rotate every single element in GUI to fit the rotated mode while keeping everything visible and use-able.
FYI, ASR isn't supported in the N900 yet. See the N97 for an example of rotating every single element in the GIU. Running at 360x640 isn't so far from 480x800, so I don't see any logic in your reasoning. It may be foreign to you, but I've been using ASR for almost 3 years on Nokia smartphones and loved it. I think once it hits the N900 (and it will if I have anything to do with it), you'll see what I mean.

I already know of someone saying it was done on the N8xx, so its definitely possible, just needs some hard thinking to get it done.

There is already an active thread talking about this and he decided to start a new one?! (He is even in that thread!)
I was basically asked to leave it alone, just like you did, in the various threads debating the issue. I don't wish to debate it, just provide a space for those that support it. The other threads have gotten me so upset I lost my cool, all because of those interfering with those looking to support a solution. Please respect us here and don't do the same in this thread. I titled it the way I did to avoid that very thing.

I didn't post here to discourage anyone ,but to give more reason why its currently isn't possible (Which by harmattan is more likely to happen then now) and no need to say that I am not against this idea (as actually people normally handling the phone with one hand)
Well where's anything constructive to add? We know Harmattan is expected to have it, so it IS feasible, and this is a thread to find a solution for Fremantle. If you aren't against this idea or thread, how do you act when you oppose something? I'm afraid to see.

By the way if you need to see problem from a graphical way, I wont mind making some picture to show what I am talking about in a better way.
Please do, but I think the real issue is you don't have an idea of how it can be done successfully, when it already has been done for OS 2008 and S60 5th. But I'm open to seeing what you have to show, so by all means share. If I had a screenshot app for my PC, I'd show some examples of it working on devices of the same resolution. Look at the WinMo devices with 800x480. They do it. Why can't Maemo? What makes Maemo such a hard nut to crack?

[NvyUs]

Who told you its unsupported feature? The only thing that isn't supported is the rotating mechanism. How would rotate every single element in GUI to fit the rotated mode while keeping everything visible and use-able.

There is already an active thread talking about this and he decided to start a new one?! (He is even in that thread!)
I didn't post here to discourage anyone ,but to give more reason why its currently isn't possible (Which by harmattan is more likely to happen then now) and no need to say that I am not against this idea (as actually people normally handling the phone with one hand)

By the way if you need to see problem from a graphical way, I wont mind making some picture to show what I am talking about in a better way.
i never said it was unsupported read again i was generalising about what happens everytime some one makes a thread about about missing or unsupported feature.
the GUI problems with rotation can be over come its not undoable, matter in fact various solutions was put forward in other threads

[f(x)]

I apologize. I wasn't trying to yell, just emphasize the purpose of the thread. I have met much opposition on this subject, and despite users wanting it, developers for the most part don't, so I need those that do to work together. I was annoying the ones who don't and getting nowhere before.

I will skip answering this, too big to answer and I am already sleepy


Now notice the thread said,"HELP SUPPORT asr", not debate
about it or speak against it. I'm just asking you to honor the thread purpose and please try to stay on topic.

I will honor the fact that you won't take the negative aspects of the topic part and also I am not wiling to stay on this thread for any longer to keep myself on its topic


Thank you for viewing my brainstorm. You should know that while I consider myself pretty tech savvy, my developer skills are nonexistent (I do a little Basic, that's it), and I only speak from an end user perspective. I'm doing the best I can.

Without brainstorming a lots of stuff won't be existed by now an I do really hope I didn't discourage you from making any brainstorming ,all what I tried was giving a reason of why its won't work in order to search for a better solution (You cant fix something isn't broken and you cant propose a solution for something you don't know anything about) - Consider me doing my role as devil advocate


If you have any skills whatsoever in writing code or working in the software development process, please submit any possible solutions to the issue, no matter how hard they may be to implement. It would really help. I'm looking for insight, and even if you don't like my idea, comment on the brainstorm and give us another perspective. They are welcome there.

There are many solutions ,but not practical and the one that looks good is forcing developers even more to be restricted in designing their GUI which after all not good


I'll leave that to the developers. Or do you think only those with developer skills should be submitting brainstorm ideas? I felt that might be the best course, believe it or not. I don't think any of the developers will ever take a normal user seriously. They haven't so far, not one.

If you think a kid shouldn't dream, then adults won't have any childhood.
Brainstorming is a major part in everything (Except in my writing) , so its really needed


Well, I don't have time to be drawing, and I won't right now, but I will tell you, my Windows PC's screen rotates, and the portrait display looks pretty good on it, so I don't see your point.

The reason why it is working fine with your laptop is because there is enough resolution that your programs can make a use of which shows them as they should.
Anyway don't worry about paint, I'll make some draw when I wake up


Anyway I am off to sleep its already late here

Edit: Oh boy, I have to respond for your next post

[christexaport]

I guess...

[f(x)]

@NvyUs: My short answer is wait when the device gets within people hands and then someone might take the time to fix it.

I was basically asked to leave it alone, just like you did, in the various threads debating the issue. I don't wish to debate it, just provide a space for those that support it. The other threads have gotten me so upset I lost my cool, all because of those interfering with those looking to support a solution. Please respect us here and don't do the same in this thread. I titled it the way I did to avoid that very thing.


[I think you will find my respond to this on my other post]

Well where's anything constructive to add? We know Harmattan is expected to have it, so it IS feasible, and this is a thread to find a solution for Fremantle. If you aren't against this idea or thread, how do you act when you oppose something? I'm afraid to see.

Trust me, You really don't wana know & and as one of solutions you can tell everyone to use containers when they are building their GUI

Please do, but I think the real issue is you don't have an idea of how it can be done successfully, when it already has been done for OS 2008 and S60 5th. But I'm open to seeing what you have to show, so by all means share. If I had a screenshot app for my PC, I'd show some examples of it working on devices of the same resolution. Look at the WinMo devices with 800x480. They do it. Why can't Maemo? What makes Maemo such a hard nut to crack?

I will answer this when I have the time & I am already aware about that (Symbian is simply limited in its GUI) & OS 2008 (Just search here and see how its been rotate to get a better idea) & About WinMo if you dont mind link me to screenshots/video that shows that to me I am not following Windows Mobiles for long time.

Funny, I didn't except to have many people to argue with them in many forums at this time! I guess I am done for today
Time for the bed.

[f(x)]

FYI, ASR isn't supported in the N900 yet. See the N97 for an example of rotating every single element in the GIU. Running at 360x640 isn't so far from 480x800, so I don't see any logic in your reasoning. It may be foreign to you, but I've been using ASR for almost 3 years on Nokia smartphones and loved it. I think once it hits the N900 (and it will if I have anything to do with it), you'll see what I mean.


I couldn't sleep before posting this, I am using symbian since nokia start shipping 7650 where it didn't have a memory card then shifting to nokia 3650 (these devices were the begging of what symbian become) and ASR I am already aware about it since and it's not strange for me since iPhone had this feature and by the time Nokia released the sensor API's and latter someone programed the auto rotate program and moving in time even forward Nokia responded to iPhone by including this feature in its firmware and no need to tell me the rotating was existed in s60v3 as I already know.



Now I can go and sleep

[Thesandlord]

@Thesandlord, I think he want an automatic rotation in iPhone/Symbian style

Ok? My N810 "autorotates" when you pull out the keyboard. The system supports dynamic resolution. I think people will write a script to automatically rotate based on the accelerometers.

[YoDude]

Has anybody seen the following thread...

>> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=333289#post333289

...I've come up with a nice object that you can throw into your own code and that will take care of auto-rotation:

That^ was posted by thp (http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?u=9673) on 09-21-09 , 06:54 PM

@ christexaport

I'll respond to your reply to my request here rather than continuing to crap in thp's very productive thread.

In it you cross posted:

I'm trying to draw support for THIS BRAINSTORM IDEA (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/add_universal_support_for_asr-automatic_screen_rotation-throughout_the_ui-002/) about Nokia supporting Automatic Screen Rotation in the entire UI of Maemo 5/N900. Please give it a look and give me a hand. I thought since this thread mentioned rotation, maybe someone might be interested.

(I did not realize at the time that you, in effect, had spammed the board for support of your "effort".) I responded:

This thread didn't just mention rotation it is an actual "HowTo" posted by thp on 09-21-09 06:54 PM 3 days before your posted Brainstorm on 2009-09-24 21:42 UTC


What's up with that? I'm confused. :confused:

...you then replied:

Just getting anyone that was ever interested in developing or using a rotation solution to join my efforts for Fremantle. This is about the only way you can engage people you don't know, and everyone says "don't talk about it, do something! I've done just that, and no one else has. I'm on my own, but not powerless, believe me.

That's just it dude... your efforts ???
WTF ??? It looks to me like you started these efforts 3 days after a partial solution was already developed and additional work was just getting started.

It seems it is actually thp (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=332870&postcount=8)'s efforts that have done something about it.

Now I can appreciate your enthusiasm, as someone else put it, and over 400 posts in 40 days certainly is enthusiastic but, cross posting and crapping in threads is counterproductive don't you think?

[mrojas]

FWIW: http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/

[christexaport]

FWIW: http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/

Thanks again! You obviously have experience in software development processes. Your brainstorm was well prepared and written. I'm a little encouraged that although not in the same format, most of the ideas I mentioned in my brainstorm are touched on in your presentation, which shows we see the same obstacles that must be overcome, and have similar ideas on how to get them done.

Its obvious I should figure a way to combine our brainstorms or at least abandon one and focus all efforts into one of the two. I'm totally for abandoning mine and following your more experienced lead, and providing my insight and ideas as a resource to help bring our imagination to fruition. How do you suggest I proceed? How can I get everyone I've sent to my idea brainstorm to ignore mine and focus on yours instead?

If you haven't seen my brainstorm, here it is:
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/add_universal_support_for_asr-automatic_screen_rotation-throughout_the_ui-002/

So what do you think of my ideas? You'll notice how I've probably mistakenly placed the challenges I need to overcome as theoretical solutions. This shows my inexperience in matters such as these. But by checking my ideas, you can see that I've attempted to address your challenge # 1 with my solution #4, though I definitely have more work to do. I addressed your challenge #2 with two options so far via my solutions # 1 and #6. I addressed your challenge # 3 with my solution #2. You #4 challenge is partially addressed in my solution #3.

We should work together to possibly come up with some great ideas. I hope you're willing to do so, and you seem eager to get things done, so I'm happy to follow your lead. What next?

[christexaport]

Has anybody seen the following thread...

>> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=333289#post333289



That^ was posted by thp (http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?u=9673) on 09-21-09 , 06:54 PM

Now I can appreciate your enthusiasm, as someone else put it, and over 400 posts in 40 days certainly is enthusiastic but, cross posting and crapping in threads is counterproductive don't you think?

Well I did in fact read that entire thread, and I saw part of the solution to issues in my brainstorm present in his work. But if you read both my and mrojas' brainstorms, you'd see there are many more challenges than just getting the screens to rotate. We're trying to make the experience painless, and make it seem integrated as if Nokia designed the UI with this intention. I don't think any less expectation would be worth my effort or as attractive to a larger audience.

You may find it counterproductive, but I see motion and activity around the solution I seek that hadn't existed until yesterday. I'm satisfied with the fruits of my efforts, and hope they draw more than just attention in the end. I'd be even happier if you were a part of it.

As many people that have expressed the want for ASR in the N900, I think I should aim high and give a complete and well planned and implemented solution. thp's work must be amazing, but it is just the start of what I and mrojas, and many others envision and expect. We look forward to him joining us in that endeavor if he so pleases.

[kanishou]

Ok? My N810 "autorotates" when you pull out the keyboard. The system supports dynamic resolution. I think people will write a script to automatically rotate based on the accelerometers.

Of course, but I think you are missing the point. The community will come up with hacks like that in no time, but it's just that, a hack. If you want it to be an official part of the OS, then it must work flawlessly and "just rotate back if the application looks broken" won't do. Completely automatic rotation is not going to be pretty, without some serious thought and work being put into it.

[YoDude]

...As many people that have expressed the want for ASR in the N900, I think I should aim high and give a complete and well planned and implemented solution. thp's work must be amazing, but it is just the start of what I and mrojas, and many others envision and expect. We look forward to him joining us in that endeavor if he so pleases.

... that's all well and good and your leadership in this "endeavor" would be commended... if it hadn't come 3 days after someone else did 80% of the actual work and posted HOWTO documentation on this board. :)


http://lookpic.com/i/599/YA9KWLFT.png
(Image^ blatantly stolen from a link provided by linuxeventually, earlier in this thread. :) )


Your spamming the board as well as your average of 10 posts a day could also be attributed to the enthusiasm of a new member...

However, they are posted over ad's for your commercial site(s) in your signature... I say sites because you apparently just registered a "Maemo" site and the appearance of a link to it in your signature corresponds to your recent quest to find a solution to a problem that already may be solved...

I'm just keeping it real here.

BTW, I truly hope that your activity is unbridled enthusiasm... then it is just a matter of restraint and in the end, it is good for the community. :)

[YoDude]

...You may find it counterproductive, but I see motion and activity around the solution I seek that hadn't existed until yesterday. I'm satisfied with the fruits of my efforts, and hope they draw more than just attention in the end. I'd be even happier if you were a part of it...

.

Addendum:

The end does not justify the means. I am talking about the productivity of the community and not just 1 member in 1 thread.

Cross posting and thread crapping are frowned upon in most forums because of this.

I'll put it this way...
I just got a great deal on my car insurance yet I don't see much motion or activity acknowledging that fact on this board.

Since most members could benefit from cheaper car insurance should I spam any threads tagged with save, cheap, car, insurance, and great deal?
(BTW, my brother-in-law sells car insurance so I'll add his web site to my posts.)

Do you see what I mean?

[f(x)]

well said YoDude, and nice to see someone else thinking Chris is spamming all over here. No need to participate unless you can add someone thing useful which he forget that point.

I didn't know about thp project, I am glade you posted it or otherwise I wouldn't know about (It doesn't seems a complex task as the way I had in my mind after reading his code).

Now I really want to set up the SDK so I can try this ,but I really don't think scratchbox is in love with none Debian based distros.
I will give it anther try with Archlinux-64bit today , hopefully it works this time.

@christexaport , Seriously try to spend your time reading / playing with Linux (Ubuntu [i guess you picked?]) & check xserver (xorg might get you interested) and postponed this topic till a 2 weeks after n900 getting into people hands.

[christexaport]

... that's all well and good and your leadership in this "endeavor" would be commended... if it hadn't come 3 days after someone else did 80% of the actual work and posted HOWTO documentation on this board. :)
Your spamming the board as well as your average of 10 posts a day could also be attributed to the enthusiasm of a new member...

However, they are posted over ad's for your commercial site(s) in your signature... I say sites because you apparently just registered a "Maemo" site and the appearance of a link to it in your signature corresponds to your recent quest to find a solution to a problem that already may be solved...
I'm really sorry to offend you, but I looked for help and support from you and many others when I first caught wind of the minimal support of portriat in the N900. While you're a veteran, I never seemed to get any help from you or other old heads. This forum is not user-friendly, nor many of its members. I was directed by most of you guys, including you, to not just continue talking about it, but acting and doing something. I did take your advice, and it seems to be working quite well. I now have the support of the very talented mrojas, and I believe he will take the lead of this initiative going forward.

I commend thb for his work, but I wasn't aware of it, nor did you or anyone else mention it to the various new users looking for a solution. All we got was discouragement and ridicule. And now you want to make me into some bad guy for seeking the same ends as thb congruent and delayed of his efforts. I'll also say his solution is not the final end I was seeking, so I'll carry on as planned. I hope thb's work can be something I can build upon and improve. Isn't that the open source spirit?

I'm a voracious poster. I'm very involved in the mobile community, and I'm online 10+ hours a day, usually from my mobile, in probably 6 different forums along with this one. This is nothing new for me, so get used to me. I'm a user advocate, and I take on causes as I see fit on my own dime. I'm a known blogger and reviewer, but not a paid one.

The sites in my signature are my online homes, but I don't benefit financially from them. I'm not at liberty to discuss site revenue, but they are far from profitable, instead positioned as a resource funded by a close friend of the Nokia community. SF is a pillar of the Symbian community, and the home of the refined Symbian OS hacking measures. We intend to be the same for the Maemo community. Our site compliments this one, only with a more laid back family nature to our forums, and a younger base. I'm not the owner of either site, just a longtime contributor.

I see that the Maemo.org forums have a gap in communication, and we decided to start a forum at the request of our members dissatisfied with the level of support available here. Its great for developers, which teach me something new everyday, but horrible for new users. I will come here and engage these forums and take the information back to my community to share. I won't get rich, and it is back breaking work, but I do it because it is my nature to serve and assist. You should try it sometimes.

[YoDude]

Um, I'm not offended... I just want to know why you feel that you are justified in cross posting and dumping in productive threads?

From what I gather from your responses is that:

1. I and others didn't help you when you asked. :confused:

2. This isn't a very user friendly forum.

3. Despite your being "online 10+ hours a day" you were not aware of a thread on a subject that you are advocating for. :confused:

and finaly...

4. "we decided to start a forum at the request of our members dissatisfied with the level of support available here".

You are right about one thing, I am an "old head" but it is a shame you seem to feel that is a bad thing.

In my book there is never justification for cross posting and thread crapping. Particularly on the scale that was witnessed recently.

http://lookpic.com/i/599/YA9KWLFT.png

(One more time in case you may have missed it. :) )


...and as an "old head" I will keep bringing this up because that's what "old heads" do. :eek

That is, until there is at least some acknowledgment that thread crapping is unproductive in a forum and cross posting is considered bad form because traffic or post count is increased without adding any new content. Both of these behaviors also tend to piss people off. :)

And BTW... you don't even know me or what I have accomplished or you wouldn't have ended by telling me what to try. Do a little research, will ya?... Please!

[kanishou]

I believe the simplest solutions are generally the best. So with regard to a main UI that supports rotations, I would suggest something like this:

- No portrait mode homescreens. Rather make the phone app the portrait mode "homescreen". This would retain the current (optional) "rotate while on homescreen to launch phone" mechanic. The current phone UI option for launching the phone by turning could be replaced with a general setting to enable rotation of the desktop and dashboard.

- The dashboard is a tricky thing, especially with a mix of portrait mode and landscape windows. A simple solution could be to use a "card-view" as on the pre, which only shows one full preview and two partial ones on each side (to be swiped). This wouldn't be nearly as useful as the landscape dashboard, but it would work well for one-handed task-switching.

The question remains, how to display landscape applications in a portrait mode dashboard? It's not as simple as to display a rotated image, keep in mind that portrait and landscape UIs have different titlebar locations, which don't show up on the thumbnails. Perhaps the "card-view" could actually display landscape windows in landscape orientation. It would look slightly chaotic, but it shouldn't be too bad actually.

P.S.: A big problem remains: What happens if you rotate the screen while on the dashboard? Do you wait until all applications have acquired their new orientation? This could take considerable time, but otherwise you would get broken thumbnails (at least on the landscape dashboard, which doesn't have a proper way to display portrait thumbnails).

[JayOnThaBeat]

@chris

I must just be a very easy person to get along with.

This forum / community was very welcoming to me, and has managed to help me with all of my problems.

I have a hard time believing that your users urged you to start a forum in response to how unfriendly / unhelpful this one was.

I think the regulars around here are great. In fact, there's only a very small handful of members that, when asked, I would say are jerks.

Also, mind you, I know far less about mobile devices than you do, of that I am sure.

I had never even heard of Maemo or Symbian or internet tablets before my laptop's mobo fried and I had to find a temporary replacement.



I just don't get the negative generalizations made about this community (most, it seems, from contributors to other tech sites)...
I'm too lazy for links right now, but yourself and ricky cadden to name two off the top of my head. (Not trying to start any sh*t, but it happened).

I'm just an end-user. But, I feel like I'm part of this community, and I try to help people with problems whenever I can (until I find a job anyway). So, by calling the community unhelpful or unfriendly, you are calling me unhelpful and unfriendly. And that hurts.

[christexaport]

Um, I'm not offended... I just want to know why you feel that you are justified in cross posting and dumping in productive threads?
You forget when I first started trying to get support for ASR, you were there. You didn't point me to any resources, developers experienced in rotation solutions, or give me any advice other than "do something about it and don't just keep whining." Or does my memory not serve me well. I'll admit, I don't remember anyone, but I do remember seeing you everywhere, but not hearing one helpful word. I have gotten help and support from others, so I'm ok now, but it would've been nice to have someone give me an introduction to the who's how's and where's of this site.

From what I gather from your responses is that:

1. I and others didn't help you when you asked. :confused:

2. This isn't a very user friendly forum.
I've been pretty vocal and present since the N900 announcements. I don't recall you mentioning anything helpful. Forgive me if I'm off base here. But I can name the helpful ones on one hand.

3. Despite your being "online 10+ hours a day" you were not aware of a thread on a subject that you are advocating for. :confused:
I don't spend all of my time here. I am an editor at two other sites, and keep up with my own forums. And with the bad design of this site, are you surprised I didn't see that thread? And do you think that solution is what I'm looking for? Did YOU point me to the site? I notice you've been in all of the threads I was "whining" in, so why didn't you say something if you knew about it?

I'm an alien here. I don't know my way around things, and have had to self start. Don't knock me, because I think I've done pretty well, considering. I've started my own brainstorm, gathered my "experts" and am working on a solution as we speak. I hope you'll join us instead of engaging me in ping pong on this thread. I'm not about all of this kid mess. Its really discouraging and childish. I got upset the other day, but I usually don't indulge in this type of crap.

and finaly...

4. "we decided to start a forum at the request of our members dissatisfied with the level of support available here".
This forum is oriented towards developers and seasoned users with Linux experience, but lacking in support for new users and former Symbian users. I'll fill that space and allow my users to share ideas there and here as well. We promote this site, even though its not where it needs to be yet. My goal is to get it there. Care to help?

You are right about one thing, I am an "old head" but it is a shame you seem to feel that is a bad thing.
I like it, but I don't see any mentoring or helpfulness from you in my experience. What is this reposting of the same picture supposed to do? When will you give me some useful advice in pertinence to ASR and getting a software project off the ground? Can you help me in any way in that regard? Because I'm probably older than you, and not into all of this back and forth. Exactly what do you want from me? Right now, you're wasting my time and yours.

In my book there is never justification for cross posting and thread crapping. Particularly on the scale that was witnessed recently.
I didn't know I was doing anything wrong. I did what I could to find the necessary talent I needed. Since you have a book on rules of posting, how do you suggest I may have acted? I would've made a thread, but they just get hijacked by haters, and its hard to get a thread noticed the way the site is designed.

And I wasn't thread crapping. I posted in threads mentioning rotation of the UI thinking developers with experience I could utilize in my ASR dreams would be there. Turns out I was right. In retrospect, I could've PM'd him, but I wanted more eyes than just those. Some may just be reading the thread and find interest.

I made one short post in each thread. No moderators have expressed any problem with it, just you. Are you a moderator? If so, just tell me the posting rules and move on.

...and as an "old head" I will keep bringing this up because that's what "old heads" do. :eek

That is, until there is at least some acknowledgment that thread crapping is unproductive in a forum and cross posting is considered bad form because traffic or post count is increased without adding any new content. Both of these behaviors also tend to piss people off. :)

And BTW... you don't even know me or what I have accomplished or you wouldn't have ended by telling me what to try. Do a little research, will ya?... Please!
So unless we agree, you'll keep pestering me and hijacking my thread? How childish. Maybe it IS productive, and others should try it until this forum is redesigned. And what you call cross posting I call networking. I only wished you were interested in seeing me make progress, not word boxing with me.

I don't get any rewards for posting. I'm just using the thread as a social tool to communicate with others of similar interest. Your badgering me is pissing me off, but I'm gonna let you make it. I have better things to do. What you've done in the past means diddley. What are you doing so helpful now, bro? Why not help me instead of being...whatever you call this??

So do you have anything to add to the ASR effort for Fremantle or not?

[christexaport]

I believe the simplest solutions are generally the best. So with regard to a main UI that supports rotations, I would suggest something like this:

- No portrait mode homescreens. Rather make the phone app the portrait mode "homescreen". This would retain the current (optional) "rotate while on homescreen to launch phone" mechanic. The current phone UI option for launching the phone by turning could be replaced with a general setting to enable rotation of the desktop and dashboard.

- The dashboard is a tricky thing, especially with a mix of portrait mode and landscape windows. A simple solution could be to use a "card-view" as on the pre, which only shows one full preview and two partial ones on each side (to be swiped). This wouldn't be nearly as useful as the landscape dashboard, but it would work well for one-handed task-switching.

The question remains, how to display landscape applications in a portrait mode dashboard? It's not as simple as to display a rotated image, keep in mind that portrait and landscape UIs have different titlebar locations, which don't show up on the thumbnails. Perhaps the "card-view" could actually display landscape windows in landscape orientation. It would look slightly chaotic, but it shouldn't be too bad actually.

P.S.: A big problem remains: What happens if you rotate the screen while on the dashboard? Do you wait until all applications have acquired their new orientation? This could take considerable time, but otherwise you would get broken thumbnails (at least on the landscape dashboard, which doesn't have a proper way to display portrait thumbnails).

I appreciate your ideas. Could you submit these possible solutions to this brainstorm for others to vote on?
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/

[JayOnThaBeat]

@chris

lemme get a login to maemo-freak, i want to see whats going on over there.

|||EDIT

Also, is there another forum skin available for symbian-freak? The color scheme hurts my brain.

|||EDIT2

Nvm, I guess thats just the main page... forum itself is good.

|||EDIT3

I LOOOVE the banned-users list on s-f. Why don't we have one of those?? :D

[kryptoniankid17]

we need this. this would make quick txting easier. we need this.

[Thor]

Note: I don't have a separate login for brainstorm yet. Hopefully I can get some time next week, but someone feel free to copy it over if it sounds useful.
Copied and pasted from the other thread:

One way to implement portrait mode via automatic screen rotation (ASR).
Have the phone rotate it and if it is too big to fit, then you have to scroll around (kinetic scrolling comes in useful here?). This will at least have the mode until there are "proper" portrait mode UIs. Those who don't want to make a UI can leave it if they want, their choice.

ASR should also be switchable on or off, and perhaps with an option for permanent portrait or permanent landscape (the default).

An example of this could perhaps be (simplistically):

on event change accelerometer_value
if accelerometer_flag= "OFF"
end if
elseif <program>_allows_ASR = "OFF"
end if
else if accelerometer_value = "Portrait"
then call <program>_UI_portrait
else call <program>_UI_landscape
end if

Ok this is very basic and I should get back to SQL statements... it's been years since I programmed in C++, this looks more like VB...!

[timsamoff]

And with the bad design of this site...

...and its hard to get a thread noticed the way the site is designed.
Please do not throw offense at those who are not involved in your discussions here. If you have an issue with this forum, there is a "Report a Forum Bug" link on the right sidebar.

Thanks,
Tim

[nymajoak]

Regarding homescreen and widgets:
The problem is with the free positioning of the widgets if I understand correctly. On rotation they might collide/overlap or end up partly outside the screen. I don't think we want to get rid of the free positioning or have resizing widgets.

The location of the widgets are somehow stored by the OS. Could it be a start to have two separate location storages, one for portrait and one for landscape? After adding a widget and rotating the screen the first time, the user can move the new widget to suit also the other orientation.

This would mean the user has to configure the homescreen for both orientations and might be a bit annoying if a lot of widgets are added in one go, but at least when adding only one I don't think this would bug me as a user too much.

Cons, from the top of my head:
* Width of widgets would be limited to 480 pixels, minus whatever padding is needed.
* Any animations on rotation would need some thought (the widgets wouldn't only rotate but also translate/move). Should be able to look fluid but at what computational cost I don't know.

An extension (not replacing the possibility for manual repositioning) might be to attempt some sort of semi-intelligent auto-repositioning of the widgets by the software. Probably a mess to get working well and the gain (getting a "good suggestion for positions in the other orientation") is probably not great. Note that this would not need to be triggered on every rotation, only when changes to the homescreen had been made.


Well, I tried. :)

[YoDude]

You forget when I first started trying to get support for ASR, you were there. You didn't point me to any resources, developers experienced in rotation solutions, or give me any advice other than "do something about it and don't just keep whining." Or does my memory not serve me well. I'll admit, I don't remember anyone, but I do remember seeing you everywhere, but not hearing one helpful word. I have gotten help and support from others, so I'm ok now, but it would've been nice to have someone give me an introduction to the who's how's and where's of this site.


I've been pretty vocal and present since the N900 announcements. I don't recall you mentioning anything helpful. Forgive me if I'm off base here. But I can name the helpful ones on one hand.


I don't spend all of my time here. I am an editor at two other sites, and keep up with my own forums. And with the bad design of this site, are you surprised I didn't see that thread? And do you think that solution is what I'm looking for? Did YOU point me to the site? I notice you've been in all of the threads I was "whining" in, so why didn't you say something if you knew about it?

I'm an alien here. I don't know my way around things, and have had to self start. Don't knock me, because I think I've done pretty well, considering. I've started my own brainstorm, gathered my "experts" and am working on a solution as we speak. I hope you'll join us instead of engaging me in ping pong on this thread. I'm not about all of this kid mess. Its really discouraging and childish. I got upset the other day, but I usually don't indulge in this type of crap.


This forum is oriented towards developers and seasoned users with Linux experience, but lacking in support for new users and former Symbian users. I'll fill that space and allow my users to share ideas there and here as well. We promote this site, even though its not where it needs to be yet. My goal is to get it there. Care to help?


I like it, but I don't see any mentoring or helpfulness from you in my experience. What is this reposting of the same picture supposed to do? When will you give me some useful advice in pertinence to ASR and getting a software project off the ground? Can you help me in any way in that regard? Because I'm probably older than you, and not into all of this back and forth. Exactly what do you want from me? Right now, you're wasting my time and yours.


I didn't know I was doing anything wrong. I did what I could to find the necessary talent I needed. Since you have a book on rules of posting, how do you suggest I may have acted? I would've made a thread, but they just get hijacked by haters, and its hard to get a thread noticed the way the site is designed.

And I wasn't thread crapping. I posted in threads mentioning rotation of the UI thinking developers with experience I could utilize in my ASR dreams would be there. Turns out I was right. In retrospect, I could've PM'd him, but I wanted more eyes than just those. Some may just be reading the thread and find interest.

I made one short post in each thread. No moderators have expressed any problem with it, just you. Are you a moderator? If so, just tell me the posting rules and move on.


So unless we agree, you'll keep pestering me and hijacking my thread? How childish. Maybe it IS productive, and others should try it until this forum is redesigned. And what you call cross posting I call networking. I only wished you were interested in seeing me make progress, not word boxing with me.

I don't get any rewards for posting. I'm just using the thread as a social tool to communicate with others of similar interest. Your badgering me is pissing me off, but I'm gonna let you make it. I have better things to do. What you've done in the past means diddley. What are you doing so helpful now, bro? Why not help me instead of being...whatever you call this??

So do you have anything to add to the ASR effort for Fremantle or not?


WOW! http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/469.gif




So basically, instead of answering my question you decided to make unsupported statements about me.

You are right about me not being a moderator here but that doesn't change the question:

WHY DID YOU FEEL THAT CROSS POSTING AND THREAD DUMPING WAS JUSTIFIED?
(Us old heads tend to increase the volume when our questions are being ignored. We think you young'uns may be hard of hearing or suttin' :p )


The end does not justify the means.

...and BTW, I do not have an N900. Nor do I have the software development kit set up on my desktop so I can't see how I could have helped you. I have learned in my life not to make commitments that I can't support.

Do you have an N900 or the SDK set up?

[Thor]

I like some of your ideas.

-The biggest problem here really is the desktop. The multitasking screen should be pretty straight forward as they are all windows of a fixed size. Just rotate and re-locate and that's done.

-Most applications will probably have to have a landscape and/or portrait UI. Is this how it is designed in the iPhone and Android phones? I'm not sure how the n97 one works as I don't have one, but I remember the home screen on my N82 does not rotate from portrait mode.

-we can have a separate landscape and portrait homescreens/desktops but this would get confusing in everyday use if they all have different widgets/icons on them, essentially giving 8 homescreens.

-One way to autorotate the desktop is to leave the resizing and require scrolling to get to the other side. This could apply in any application if autorotation is a requirement, but will leave "widescreen bars" at the top and bottom in portrait mode.

-Another way would be to allow resizing of widgets (probably manually by the user?) not just width but height as well, with word wrapped text, if it is updated dynamically. This will require vertical scrolling, but I think would be a great solution while keeping dynamic content.

-Another way would be to translate the landscape desktop to portrait mode using icons instead of dynamic widgets with a few excepts. I would think the likes of twitter, messenger IM, SMS, email icons would be similar to the blackberry. For example, when a new message arrives, put a star on the corner of the icon. It's very noticeable. Also, the number of unread messages can be listed next to it, such as 5 for 5 unread emails/IMs etc. This will end up with a bit more of an iPhone/Blackberry look, but will allow all icons to be on the portrait mode screen with no scrolling required. It would also assign a specific icon size and act as shortcuts to the main program. If you must see the dynamic content, tough, you will just have to access the program, or rotate to landscape mode. I think that could work.

Any thoughts?

Regarding homescreen and widgets:
The problem is with the free positioning of the widgets if I understand correctly. On rotation they might collide/overlap or end up partly outside the screen. I don't think we want to get rid of the free positioning or have resizing widgets.

The location of the widgets are somehow stored by the OS. Could it be a start to have two separate location storages, one for portrait and one for landscape? After adding a widget and rotating the screen the first time, the user can move the new widget to suit also the other orientation.

This would mean the user has to configure the homescreen for both orientations and might be a bit annoying if a lot of widgets are added in one go, but at least when adding only one I don't think this would bug me as a user too much.

Cons, from the top of my head:
* Width of widgets would be limited to 480 pixels, minus whatever padding is needed.
* Any animations on rotation would need some thought (the widgets wouldn't only rotate but also translate/move). Should be able to look fluid but at what computational cost I don't know.

An extension (not replacing the possibility for manual repositioning) might be to attempt some sort of semi-intelligent auto-repositioning of the widgets by the software. Probably a mess to get working well and the gain (getting a "good suggestion for positions in the other orientation") is probably not great. Note that this would not need to be triggered on every rotation, only when changes to the homescreen had been made.


Well, I tried. :)

[ysss]

I don't want the desktop to try to be too smart.

I'd rather if it lets the user choose if she wants the primary desktop to either be portrait or landscape, and focus on refining the display of that mode. The secondary mode will be the one with a quickfix 'icons reflow' treatment. It should also give the option to fix the desktop to a single orientation (either portrait or landscape).

[Corwin]

BTW, four days ago I submitted a Brainstorm Idea regarding rotation support in the browser. This might be a lot easier to implement, as the UI-related problems are a lot less and does not include changing the whole device-UI. Because of that it might be more realistic to become true in the near future.

You can support the idea by voting for it here:
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/browser-add_portrait_mode_support_to_the_browser-automatic_screen_rotation/

24 Thumbs up, 0 thumbs down ATM!

Thanks,
Corwin

[nymajoak]

-The biggest problem here really is the desktop. The multitasking screen should be pretty straight forward as they are all windows of a fixed size. Just rotate and re-locate and that's done.

I think the multitasking screen might be tricky as well, as has been pointed out elsewhere (can't find the post right now). I don't remember the details right now but the windows are not just static screenshots of the apps, but dynamic. So when rotating the MT screen you have to switch all open apps to their other orientation. This might take a lot of resources (have no feeling for how demanding it would be, but a slow and laggy switch between orientations would be definite turn-off with an otherwise snappy device).

Also, all applications won't support both orientations (I think it would be a mistake to force them to, see below) which complicates it further. It might look a mess with windows in different orientations?


-Most applications will probably have to have a landscape and/or portrait UI. Is this how it is designed in the iPhone and Android phones? I'm not sure how the n97 one works as I don't have one, but I remember the home screen on my N82 does not rotate from portrait mode.

Personally I think it would be a mistake to force all applications to have support for both orientations. Besides increasing the load on app developers, I am pretty sure not all applications work "well" (as in being practical, intuitive, logical, usable etc) in both orientations.

But yes, there is in-built support for applications to have both orientations if I have understood it right. It's up to the developer.


-we can have a separate landscape and portrait homescreens/desktops but this would get confusing in everyday use if they all have different widgets/icons on them, essentially giving 8 homescreens.

I agree, with my proposal you probably could end up in situations when having two different arrangements of widgets in the two different orientations isn't enough to make them fit on the screen. So you would either have to live with the fact that some might overlap or have the possibility to have different amount of widgets on the two orientations, which essentially means two different versions of the homescreens. I think out of two bads the second option is the worst?


-One way to autorotate the desktop is to leave the resizing and require scrolling to get to the other side. This could apply in any application if autorotation is a requirement, but will leave "widescreen bars" at the top and bottom in portrait mode.

Noticed you suggested this elsewhere. Nice and simple, but personally I wouldn't like this. It would seem too much as an afterthought/homehack and I would prefer not to have rotation of the screen.


-Another way would be to allow resizing of widgets (probably manually by the user?) not just width but height as well, with word wrapped text, if it is updated dynamically. This will require vertical scrolling, but I think would be a great solution while keeping dynamic content.

That would probably help automatic treatment of the rotation, but I can imagine it would require a lot of thought and testing from widget designers and also support on OS-level?


-Another way would be to translate the landscape desktop to portrait mode using icons instead of dynamic widgets with a few excepts. I would think the likes of twitter, messenger IM, SMS, email icons would be similar to the blackberry. For example, when a new message arrives, put a star on the corner of the icon. It's very noticeable. Also, the number of unread messages can be listed next to it, such as 5 for 5 unread emails/IMs etc. This will end up with a bit more of an iPhone/Blackberry look, but will allow all icons to be on the portrait mode screen with no scrolling required. It would also assign a specific icon size and act as shortcuts to the main program. If you must see the dynamic content, tough, you will just have to access the program, or rotate to landscape mode. I think that could work.

Having square widgets/shortcuts etc (or rather forcing them to a grid with square slots) would solve the entire homescreen problem as far as I understand. Question is if it is worth the sacrifice. Without having used either blackberries, iphones, n97s or n900s I think I prefer the n900's homescreen system and wouldn't want to sacrifice the functionality. Also, it would mean redesigning the entire homescreen functionality and all widgets...

A quick disclaimer:
I am not a developer and have, as I said, no hands-on experience with touchscreen phones. All I write comes from trying to envision how I would like the device to behave.. :)

[christexaport]

@chris

I must just be a very easy person to get along with.
...that you are. I thank you for it. :D

This forum / community was very welcoming to me, and has managed to help me with all of my problems.

I have a hard time believing that your users urged you to start a forum in response to how unfriendly / unhelpful this one was.
It wasn't all so much the rudeness as the lack of focus on the users, especially those that are new to linux and maemo but talented developers nonetheless. There is much interest in the N900, and it could easily become a phenomenon. We just extended our old forums to give them a temporary home for now. Too many complaints. Many of our members or VERY young talented hackers and coders. I'd hate to see 15 and 16 year olds subjected to this type of environment. But I have faith things will improve. I've noticed some of the old heads pointing out the same issues, so the leadership is there.

I think the regulars around here are great. In fact, there's only a very small handful of members that, when asked, I would say are jerks
so true

Also, mind you, I know far less about mobile devices than you do, of that I am sure.
Don't assume. Neither of us has used the N900 extensively, so we're both neophytes in that regard.

I just don't get the negative generalizations made about this community (most, it seems, from contributors to other tech sites)...
I'm too lazy for links right now, but yourself and ricky cadden to name two off the top of my head. (Not trying to start any sh*t, but it happened).

I'm just an end-user. But, I feel like I'm part of this community, and I try to help people with problems whenever I can (until I find a job anyway). So, by calling the community unhelpful or unfriendly, you are calling me unhelpful and unfriendly. And that hurts.
I think if the same sentiment is repeated by more than just me, perhaps there's something to what we're saying. I think its a matter of many of us coming from the Symbian world, having to hack and pwn our devices to get part of the versatility Maemoans enjoy daily. That open nature is taken for granted, as is the ability to write code and improve a device on your own, something that takes lots of education, practice, and skill.

Ricky Cadden is a great advocate for mobiles, and he lives near me. There's a reason he and others are the first to get called when new devices come around. The Symbian community is alot closer knit and helpful towards one another, and Maemo is a shock to the system in that light. We're all just learning to adjust, and we will in due time. The growing pains are just a little hard to bear.

You are a helpful person, and not all of this forum's members are a problem. Most aren't. But a bad apple can spoil the bunch. But good apples can influence the bad. Just keep being that good example. You and others are the reason I'm still here. I just have to learn patience. Things will improve, because I'm here to help it happen.

[christexaport]

Please do not throw offense at those who are not involved in your discussions here. If you have an issue with this forum, there is a "Report a Forum Bug" link on the right sidebar.

Thanks,
Tim
No offense intended. I thought some of the PTB acknowledged that site design was in flux and needed some improvements. As I understand it, the improvements are being worked on already. So I'm not tripping at all. I like the ideas and intended purpose of this community. Understand that. I'm here to help, that's all.

@chris

lemme get a login to maemo-freak, i want to see whats going on over there.
The site is still in beta, and not ready for the public. You can still see the forums, though, through the Symbian portal. It will be final soon, and I hope you come say hi and check us out. We welcome you.

Also, is there another forum skin available for symbian-freak? The color scheme hurts my brain.
I agree. LOL! Keep in mind, that is a legacy of the age of our site and the age group most of our readers are in. The SF layout will be updated soon. Thank goodness...I don't like it either, but its grown on me since its my home. Some readers don't want it changed because of sentiment.

Nvm, I guess thats just the main page... forum itself is good.

Wow! Thanks! Glad you like it.

I LOOOVE the banned-users list on s-f. Why don't we have one of those?? :D

Hopefully we won't need one, but let's get back on topic. You can hit me via PM. I don't want to hog the forum.

We need some red on yellow color-scheming as an option... http://www.symbian-freak.com

It's all the rage!
You know it! LOL!

[christexaport]

@nymajoak,
I came up with a similar scheme to rotate the widgets and animate them to their new location. Check my solution at #5 on the brainstorm, and if it fits what you're saying, by all means vote for it! I think its perfect, as long as the GPU isn't taxed by all of the transition animation it may require.

Thor, you have many ideas! PLEASE submit some as solutions on this brainstorm.
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/
You've obviously given it some thought. Maybe you can help us with some fresh ideas, or give us feedback on ours.

@ysss,
What did you think of our solutions on the brainstorm? Too much? Don't you think it is an improvement?

@YoDude,
We can't keep up this back and forth here. This isn't the place. PM me. I'll give you my Google Voice number and we can talk on the phone like men and stop this bickering. Its not conducive to anything here. You and I both know better. Let's just let it go, ok? I'm pretty much done, but I'm willing to have a mature conversation on the phone with you if you like. Just too busy right now, and its taking away from progress on this thread.

[nymajoak]

@nymajoak,
I came up with a similar scheme to rotate the widgets and animate them to their new location. Check my solution at #5 on the brainstorm, and if it fits what you're saying, by all means vote for it! I think its perfect, as long as the GPU isn't taxed by all of the transition animation it may require.

Ah. I have checked both brainstorms on the topic before but missed your recent addition. Yes, barring a few details my idea is essentially the same as yours. :)

[christexaport]

Glad we're on the same page. Please comment on the bainstorm.

[kanishou]

I don't like the rotation of home screens. There are widgets which are simply too wide to fit in portrait, so they would either be cut off or have to be shown in landscape. In any case it just doesn't seem elegant to me, and I can't really see it happening like that.

I would keep it very simple, either no homescreen at all (making it the phone as described in my previous post or some static image), or perhaps a single portrait homescreen which can have its own widgets.

The dashboard is anything but a simple problem, and so far nobody seems to have come up with a satisfying solution to what happens to the thumbnails if the screen is rotated while the dashboard is showing.

I don't see the point of voting yet, when nobody has come up with a completely thought-through proposal yet. There are issues that have been pointed out in great detail before by people like ragnar, who do UI design for a living. It's not productive and a bit disrespectful to just glance over those issues.

[Ovek]

I don't actually care that much about universal portrait support*, but what does bother me is rather simple scenario everyone will face... what happens when you receive let's say a e-mail? From what i've gleaned from previews and... ahem... a review I would have to use both hands, unlock the phone and open the e-mail app.

That seems rather awkward to me, but I have an idea... how about the lock screen which we all know it's got, provides some useful information instead of just being a iPhone rip off. Have it display your recently received emails, txt, up coming calendar events/taks and any other info that relevant. This is a feature iPhone users have been clamouring for since the first iPhone came out.

Have that screen auto rotate so if I do receive a email out on the street I can get it out of my pocket flick the unlock slider or power button and quickly glance at the message. Portrait support in the email / messenger apps becomes irrelevant because if it's something you need to reply to you will be using the keyboard.

Just and idea...


* It would be nice - I most certainly don't support the "I don't want it" group of developers that seem to think it would double there UI code workload... I have an idea for that as well... if you don't want to support it in the app your making no one is forcing you to code/support it ;)

[christexaport]

I don't like the rotation of home screens. There are widgets which are simply too wide to fit in portrait, so they would either be cut off or have to be shown in landscape. In any case it just doesn't seem elegant to me, and I can't really see it happening like that.
What if the widgets had some mechanism to resize and or relocate upon rotation? This is the type of solution we're working to bring to fruition, not just a messy rotate and that's it.

I've come to notice that with the solutions many are now supporting in the Brainstorm, for anything to be feasible, there may be a need to limit widgets to 480x480, but that is still a pretty large widget, larger than an N95 screen, so it shouldn't be a problem for most widget designers.

Could you check my solution (I think its solution #5 in this Brainstorm (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/)), and tell me if it sounds inelegant to you if done properly and successfully? I like my idea, and everyone else does so far. Not sure how possible it will be to implement it, but a good solution is at least possible if thought out properly.

I would keep it very simple, either no homescreen at all (making it the phone as described in my previous post or some static image), or perhaps a single portrait homescreen which can have its own widgets.

The dashboard is anything but a simple problem, and so far nobody seems to have come up with a satisfying solution to what happens to the thumbnails if the screen is rotated while the dashboard is showing.

I don't see the point of voting yet, when nobody has come up with a completely thought-through proposal yet. There are issues that have been pointed out in great detail before by people like ragnar, who do UI design for a living. It's not productive and a bit disrespectful to just glance over those issues.
You seem to have some new ideas. Please post them in the brainstorm, at least as a comment if not a solution. Registration only takes a couple minutes.

I don't think the dashboard is so hard an issue. The tiles can show the apps in native orientation if they only support one, or be rotated for apps that support that. The position of the tiles would stay the same, just the data in them would need to change. Then there's the issue of titling the tiles, but just not showing a title in portrait could be a solution. You can always just look and see what it is.

You may see no reason, but it helps us to get votes on the solutions in the brainstorms so we know which ideas are supported and which we should ignore. Community involvement in a positive manner is always needed, and the more the better.

So head on over and be heard!
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/

[christexaport]

Good ideas, Ovek! Why haven't you posted them in the brainstorm?? We need as many thoughts and ideas as possible to get a good solution for everyone. I never even thought about what you said until now. Please post it to the Brainstorm.
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/

[zehjotkah]

I'll post the same concern I have posted in the other thread here, too. Don't know if it was already mentioned, but I think it's important to think about it...

But what is, if you're lying in your bed sideways, like this (http://images.google.de/images?hl=de&um=1&sa=1&q=7+zonen+matratze&btnG=Bilder-Suche&aq=f&oq=&start=0) an you want to surf the web or just read something... The screen would change the orientation to portrait mode... wtf?!

I would love to see a function in which the front camera would detect the orientation of your face and based on that change the screen orientation... xD

[range]

P.S.: A big problem remains: What happens if you rotate the screen while on the dashboard? Do you wait until all applications have acquired their new orientation? This could take considerable time, but otherwise you would get broken thumbnails (at least on the landscape dashboard, which doesn't have a proper way to display portrait thumbnails).

That by the way is an interesting question. Okay, the apps keep running, but do they get *all* which are emitted on dbus or elsewhere? Will they even see that the orientation of the device has changed? Or is the dashboard the only application which listens on dbus for those events at that time and then has to tell all applications that the orientation changed?

I take that as a question to one of the brainstorms :)

[range]

we need this. this would make quick txting easier. we need this.

That all might be, but do you expect it being there overnight? Add your ideas to the existing brainstorms, let other people *think* about how it can be done - it is not there yet and needs serious considerations to get it correct.

[range]

The location of the widgets are somehow stored by the OS. Could it be a start to have two separate location storages, one for portrait and one for landscape? After adding a widget and rotating the screen the first time, the user can move the new widget to suit also the other orientation.

This would mean the user has to configure the homescreen for both orientations and might be a bit annoying if a lot of widgets are added in one go, but at least when adding only one I don't think this would bug me as a user too much.

What IMNSHO is sexy about that idea is that I can have *8* home screens then (or maybe just 1 portrait mode home screen, which just sees the most important widgets).


Cons, from the top of my head:
* Width of widgets would be limited to 480 pixels, minus whatever padding is needed.


I guess only when you want to have the same widget available in portrait and landscape mode without starting it twice. Or have it resizable in a way that the width of the widget shrinks to the maximum available width in that orientation if it is smaller than the widget width.[/QUOTE]

[range]

I would love to see a function in which the front camera would detect the orientation of your face and based on that change the screen orientation... xD

What if you have a wide face? >:)

[christexaport]

But what is, if you're lying in your bed sideways, like this (http://images.google.de/images?hl=de&um=1&sa=1&q=7+zonen+matratze&btnG=Bilder-Suche&aq=f&oq=&start=0) an you want to surf the web or just read something... The screen would change the orientation to portrait mode... wtf?!

The N97 has the option to disable screen rotation for this reason. I promote the same solution.

[zehjotkah]

The N97 has the option to disable screen rotation for this reason. I promote the same solution.

but this requires user interaction...

edit:
please don't get me wrong!!! in general I'm on par with your opinion to have choices... choices are good. but i don't want to have a half finished thing..
for example think on the backgrounds of the homescreens. if they are in portrait you can't make such nice effects like a panorama over all 4 screens.
there are so many things to think about.

i think some members here didn't react in a way you would have expected. i thinks, that's because we know how it works with maemo. It's not like symbian, that we get a device which we can't change at all.
if we would like (and I know there is at least one progger, who would like to have ASR) we could implement that feature. also the way how you promote your opinion was very... ummm extroverted ;-) posting in many many old threads and posting a lot is not the maemo-way. we have an edit-function to prevent doble-posts. and that a new thread was started was a way to show you how it should NOT be.
Personally i think that there are pros and cons about ASR. in some situation it is usefull, but in others it would going on my nerves so that i could throw the device on a near wall... ;-)

[kanishou]

What if the widgets had some mechanism to resize and or relocate upon rotation? This is the type of solution we're working to bring to fruition, not just a messy rotate and that's it.

That's a bit like requiring all applications to support portrait mode. A very intrusive and work-intensive solution. Not impossible, but lowering the chances of this happening soon.

I've come to notice that with the solutions many are now supporting in the Brainstorm, for anything to be feasible, there may be a need to limit widgets to 480x480, but that is still a pretty large widget, larger than an N95 screen, so it shouldn't be a problem for most widget designers.

Many community widgets I have seen appear to be larger than this already though. And once you start adding limitations for landscape mode, you are stepping outside the realm of "if you don't need it, it's not going to hurt you".

Could you check my solution (I think its solution #5 in this Brainstorm (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/)), and tell me if it sounds inelegant to you if done properly and successfully? I like my idea, and everyone else does so far. Not sure how possible it will be to implement it, but a good solution is at least possible if thought out properly.

I've seen it, and no I don't find it elegant I'm afraid. The message is very intrusive, and repositioning each widget twice can be a nuisance. You are not even guaranteed to have the same amount of space available on both orientations, as the title stripes take up different volumes of space. Moreover, if you keep the four homescreens also in portrait orientation, you need a solution to what to do with the backgrounds (stretching them will look horrible, rotated they won't fit together anymore). This has also been pointed out before.

I don't think the dashboard is so hard an issue. The tiles can show the apps in native orientation if they only support one,

The problem is, the tiles show a thumbnail of the application _without_ the titlebar, so they don't have the same aspect ratio in landscape and portrait mode. In landscape, the thumbnail is created from an 800x424 image, in portrait the thumbnail would be created from a 480x744 image. This is not going to look any good.

or be rotated for apps that support that. The position of the tiles would stay the same, just the data in them would need to change. Then there's the issue of titling the tiles, but just not showing a title in portrait could be a solution. You can always just look and see what it is.

Not sure I understand all of this correctly. But as for "be rotated for apps that support that", the question is also when to do that rotation, considering that it might take some time.

You may see no reason, but it helps us to get votes on the solutions in the brainstorms so we know which ideas are supported and which we should ignore. Community involvement in a positive manner is always needed, and the more the better.

So head on over and be heard!
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/

As I work on Fremantle full time right now, I'm not exactly an unbiased community member. :) These are just my personal opinions though, of what I think would have a reasonable chance to become reality (either officially or as an open source effort). I don't have any say in that whatsoever, nor any particular inside-knowledge. Voting is not going to make any difference though, if a proposal still has fundamental design-flaws.

[christexaport]

but this requires user interaction...

edit:
please don't get me wrong!!! in general I'm on par with your opinion to have choices... choices are good. but i don't want to have a half finished thing..
for example think on the backgrounds of the homescreens. if they are in portrait you can't make such nice effects like a panorama over all 4 screens.
there are so many things to think about.
I assume you'd only turn off ASR when reading in bed on your side, as I do, and usually leave it on or off the rest of the time. As long as the feature is easily accessible, it won't be a nuisance, I don't think.

What makes you think you'd lose scrolling of your 4 desktops in portrait? Only difference is you'd scroll down instead of sideways. That's no big deal at all, and not an issue from my perspective.

i think some members here didn't react in a way you would have expected. i thinks, that's because we know how it works with maemo. It's not like symbian, that we get a device which we can't change at all.
I had no expectations except to find users wanting ASR that may want to participate in some lobbying and recruiting of talent to make it happen. Nothing to do with Symbian. I use many mobile OSes for review purposes, and its pretty ubiquitous in them all at some level.

If you see my siggie, I'm a Symbian Freak, and we hack and change the devices to our heart's content. Not easily, but nothing stops a Freak. You'll see... Maemo is a Freak's dream. Wait until we get our grubby hands on this thing. I know an army of Indian, American, Chinese and Russian 15ish year olds that will max the N900 out with the quickness. Freaks belong here in Maemo World, and we're glad the time has finally arrived with the inclusion of the phone feature.

"Legal Freaking? On a NOKIA?? It's on!!"

if we would like (and I know there is at least one progger, who would like to have ASR) we could implement that feature.
Personally i think that there are pros and cons about ASR. in some situation it is usefull, but in others it would going on my nerves so that i could throw the device on a near wall... ;-)
Well now I feel forced to convince you to convince them! ;);:D

The great part about ASR is its optional, and not required that you use it. So there are really no cons, imo.

[kanishou]

That by the way is an interesting question. Okay, the apps keep running, but do they get *all* which are emitted on dbus or elsewhere? Will they even see that the orientation of the device has changed? Or is the dashboard the only application which listens on dbus for those events at that time and then has to tell all applications that the orientation changed?

That shouldn't be a technical issue. You just have to decide when and how to do it, because it might take considerable time. And portrait thumbnails may not be very useful in landscape mode, for the aspect-ratio issue I mentioned above.

[range]

That shouldn't be a technical issue. You just have to decide when and how to do it, because it might take considerable time. And portrait thumbnails may not be very useful in landscape mode, for the aspect-ratio issue I mentioned above.

If you keep the application in landscape mode after you rotated to portrait mode while on the dashboard, you would have to rotate from landscape to portrait *after* tapping on that application, while already being in portrait mode.

I don't think that that looks very smooth.

[kanishou]

If you keep the application in landscape mode after you rotated to portrait mode while on the dashboard, you would have to rotate from landscape to portrait *after* tapping on that application, while already being in portrait mode.

I don't think that that looks very smooth.

Yes, that's a good point which makes that question even more pressing. Of course the rotation should happen in the background and without the animation, but it would still introduce a delay after tapping on the task in the "wrong" orientation.

[christexaport]

some apps wont ever rotate, so the issue will be there regardless until devs start supporting it in their apps. but don't assume how it looks yet. Our goal is that it looks good. Can yall post some of these opinions in the comment section at the bottom of the Brainstorm, PLEASE?
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/

[Thor]

I don't want the desktop to try to be too smart.

I'd rather if it lets the user choose if she wants the primary desktop to either be portrait or landscape, and focus on refining the display of that mode. The secondary mode will be the one with a quickfix 'icons reflow' treatment. It should also give the option to fix the desktop to a single orientation (either portrait or landscape).

Perhaps the default orientation should be Landscape, with a setting to choose autorotation, or portrait as default, or let the program decide (like mobitubia does on the N82, landscape only).

[Thor]

I think the multitasking screen might be tricky as well, as has been pointed out elsewhere (can't find the post right now). I don't remember the details right now but the windows are not just static screenshots of the apps, but dynamic. So when rotating the MT screen you have to switch all open apps to their other orientation. This might take a lot of resources (have no feeling for how demanding it would be, but a slow and laggy switch between orientations would be definite turn-off with an otherwise snappy device).


I was thinking more along the lines of having seen the 2 rows by 3 columns = 6 windows on the desktop running dynamically, we can just have those windows rotated into portrait (90 degrees) in the same locations, so we end up with a 3 rows and 2 columns. There may be less spacing between the columns, or the windows will have to be a little smaller, but it should be do-able.


Also, all applications won't support both orientations (I think it would be a mistake to force them to, see below) which complicates it further. It might look a mess with windows in different orientations?


Personally I think it would be a mistake to force all applications to have support for both orientations. Besides increasing the load on app developers, I am pretty sure not all applications work "well" (as in being practical, intuitive, logical, usable etc) in both orientations.

But yes, there is in-built support for applications to have both orientations if I have understood it right. It's up to the developer.


I didn't phrase it correctly, the developer should have the option to lock-in the orientation, be it because they can't be bothered to make portrait, or feel the work is way too much, or that the application makes no sense in portrait, say for example, watching a widescreen movie. You'd really want to watch it in landscape.

Also, I think that an application would probably need a UI design for landscape and one for portrait, and the accelerometer triggers which one is displayed. Yes, it's more work, but I can't think of any other way, so it's up to a developer to decide what to do.


Having square widgets/shortcuts etc (or rather forcing them to a grid with square slots) would solve the entire homescreen problem as far as I understand. Question is if it is worth the sacrifice. Without having used either blackberries, iphones, n97s or n900s I think I prefer the n900's homescreen system and wouldn't want to sacrifice the functionality. Also, it would mean redesigning the entire homescreen functionality and all widgets...


Well portrait mode would have less functionality. Anyone who wants full functionality of widgets can go to landscape mode. It works well on the Blackberry (and mine is fixed as it's not touchscreen, and it makes no sense rotating the phone). I don't really have much experience of the iPhone, but I think I've heard the home screen is only available in portrait mode? I think the menus within Symbian can rotate to landscape or portrait on my N82 (I have autorotation off the screen is off-centre in landscape, though mobitubia is fine in it), but the homescreen is the only one permanently in portrait (excluding developr apps).

[Thor]

@nymajoak,
Thor, you have many ideas! PLEASE submit some as solutions on this brainstorm.
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_for_desktop_and_general_interface_in _fremantle/
You've obviously given it some thought. Maybe you can help us with some fresh ideas, or give us feedback on ours.


I'll have a look but won't really be participating there until the end of the coming week. Sister's wedding Sunday, then furniture in this new place... hopefully next weekend will bring some calm L)

In the meantime I'll post here when I can, but probably be reading a lot like I did before joining. I read for a week or two.

I think you are like me, in that you want and hope that the N900 can be that *almost* perfect device... There are a lot of things this phone will be capable of, and portrait mode, and capabilities of things like Skype, MSN/Yahoo/AIM etc messengers, push email, push facebook/twitter updates and so on will just make it the must-have phone. And to most it is a phone, but it seems to old-time Maemo/tablet users, it is viewed more as a computer. A miniaturized laptop, but now even smaller to smartphone size. This is going off topic so I'd better stop here.

[Thor]

If you keep the application in landscape mode after you rotated to portrait mode while on the dashboard, you would have to rotate from landscape to portrait *after* tapping on that application, while already being in portrait mode.

I don't think that that looks very smooth.

I would think 2 ways of doing this:

- The application opens in landscape mode and then has the rotation animation. If animations are turned off, it will open in portrait orientation if it's available in the application.

-The thumbnail image on the dashboard animates and rotates around and gets bigger until it is full screen and in portrait mode.

[Laughing Man]

Am I missing something? While it would be nice to have dashboard widgets in portrait mode why let that hold you back? You could do it like the iPhone where the default screen is only available in one mode (e.g. portrait) and applications can then be rotated. If you exit the application in portrait mode just have it show the dashboard in landscape mode and the user has to re-orient.

[daveb70]

I wonder if Nokia developed any Maemo version of a sensor framework API as found on their S60 platform? Maybe it's being worked on now but won't hit until SSU #1 for Maemo 5? Who knows. http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/Nokia_Sensor_APIs

As you can see from the S60 link it's still up to the application developer to support the API. I think the N900 was designed as a landscape-oriented model for obvious reasons. (not that every appreciates that facit it seems) Nokia was wise to integrate portrait mode for the phone app since pretty much anyone who's owned/used a cell phone (or cordless or landline) in their lifetime has associated with and grown accustomed to the portrait orientation. I think with the average 3 year old being able to use a PC (and probably on a landscape oriented monitor) and more cell phones in the joe-consumer market offering landscape-styled qwerty keyboards, this trend towards landscape domination is a natural design decision by Nokia.

Would I like to see the ability across the board on the N900? Sure, if it functions smoothly with practical and predicatable results, doesn't require more time and resources to develop than are available, (I'll bet Nokia has better, more useful bits of code and engineering in the works just cooking away for release to the N900 when they are ready) and it allows for customization by community developers who may be able to squeeze some advanced behavior out of it.

Does anyone know the part # for the N900's accelerometer?

[christexaport]

Thor, I think you've missed part of the point and purpose of this thread, or my and the brainstorm's intention. We, or should I say I, don't want a "default orientation", where the OS tells us how to use it. I prefer portrait orientation most of the time, myself. I prefer one handed usage, T9, and don't like landscape's two handed requirement or the slower typing offered by QWERTY. (I know that may shock you, but T9 has been proven faster than QWERTY when used exclusively and trained well. Similar studies done by QWERTY favoring users have skewed the data, but forcing someone to use T9 for a month or two has shown that higher maximum speeds are acheiveable with T9 than QWERTY for various reasons.) The point is, just as the OS is positioned, allow the user to choose which orientation is his "default", not the OS. Let us decide how best to use Maemo, not be told.

Third party apps are a different story, and the rotation issue has already been addressed for them. Rotation is already an option for all third party apps. The biggest issue is the entire experience. I'm talking the default apps, and most importantly, the desktops and menus, which is basically what users will consider the OS in general terms, or firmware provided stuff.

Widget screens should be the most used facility of the device. To require a two handed usage paradigm to check widgets whose intended design was to save time and add convenience is counterproductive. You get an alert or wanna check your Facebook or MySpace page, you pull it out like a phone, give a look, and go! You don't stop, drop everything, grab with two hands, and then go. What good is a multitasking OS if it doesn't allow you to multitask as well? The widget screens rotating would make the N900 that much more productive a device.

There won't be a need to "reflow" any icons. The icons will stay where they are and just rotate 90 degrees on their center axis. Not sure where the "reflow" idea crept in...

Having the desktop rotate is wise. The N82's doesn't, and form factor may have been a reason to not implement it. But every subsequent high end Nokia smartphone's homescreen, menus, and entire OS UI afterwards does. It added to the convenience of the device. That's why I suggested that the N97 be the model for what we want from the N900 rotation-wise.

As for the dashboard, that won't be hard to implement. There's no need to rotate the tiles themselves in the dashboard. Rotating the device puts the tiles in the same orientation as the screen already. Now the content in those tiles may or not need to rotate. I'd prefer they did, but its not a deal breaker. No big deal in the grand scheme of things, since the user can still choose orientation for the rest of the device. On the N95, you can switch to a landscape only app from portrait mode, and the app is in landscape, forcing you to turn the device. That's as it should be.

The purpose of the dashboard is to see which apps are running and switching between them, and that shouldn't be much harder with ASR implemented. Some apps won't rotate by design, so those tiles will show a sideways view, but finding out how much resources are needed to rotate every app in its tile is something we need to find out. Most apps won't be landscape only anyway, if Nokia smartphone history is an accurate measure. I'm a longtime Symbian user, and our apps rotate well, and multitasking while switching orientations is a breeze, but they don't show in real time on the dashboard, either, so this is new territory. Maybe if resources are limited for the dashboard, you could turn off the real time view on the tiles and present an icon of a typical screenshot or splashscreen of the app, included in the app by the developer for this purpose. This won't work for IM apps, though.

To me, the N900 is a computer first. But its a pocketable computer that is capable of being a phone, and combines convenience and power unseen before. The NIT users don't understand why we want ASR because most of them don't use their devices nearly as much as smartphone users do. They don't normally go everywhere with them like smartphones, like the market, the pool, fishing, to work, in the purse, to parties and concerts, etc. They're mostly useless for web tasks without the persistent data connection.

The N900 is instantly more useful and used because of the addition of 3G, and will be in their hands much more often and in more places and situations than before, creating new use cases they've never experienced on a regular basis. So they'll be teaching the smartphone users about the OS agility while learning from the smartphone users about convenience and portability.

Laughing Man, I understand what you're saying, and that's the issue we want to avoid. The menus and desktops shouldn't be static and force you to do all of this rotating the device crap. Even cheap $320 smartphones don't have this problem. Just let the bugger rotate itself and work as the user wishes instead. That's what we have had for 3 years now on advanced smartphones, and the N900's more advanced OS should easily match that performance. We just need Nokia or the community to show it how.

[nymajoak]

A suggestion for direction of this thread, based on a post by ragnar (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334660&postcount=42).

His biggest concern with universal screen rotation seems to be the dashboard and the fact that not all applications support both landscape and portrait orientation. Maybe this is what discussions in this thread should primarily revolve around, at least atm? Perhaps we could base them on the questions ragnar pose?

To try and summarize:
Currently the dashboard only works in landscape mode. Furthermore, all thumbnails show applications in their landscape mode, regardless how the device is held and regardless if the application has a portrait mode or not (this appears to be how the caller application currently behaves (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334686&postcount=50)). Something I haven't thought about before is that all applications basically are assumed to have a landscape version; link1 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334676&postcount=46), link2 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334677&postcount=47)(sidenote: universal rotation support could maybe make applications with only portrait support possible. Perhaps another reason for URS/ASR?).

Anyway, the "landscape is default-mentality" means the array of application thumbnails in the dashboard always looks good. With applications in different orientations, should the thumbnails be in different rotations as well and most importantly, how should that look?

[nymajoak]

Idea regarding dashboard and thumbnails (Is this what you proposed (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334517&postcount=72), Thor?):
I am thinking that if all applications continually have to have a landscape version implemented, one way would be to (like now) always display that version on the dashboard. Then all thumbnails would have the same orientation and the array wouldn't be messed up. The issue, visually, would then only be to rotate the thumbnails around their own center axis between the portrait and landscape representation of the dashboard. The contents of each thumbnail would regardless of the orientation of the dashboard be landscape versions of the app.
Pros:
* The array of thumbnails "looks good" regardless of dashboard orientation and what orientation the apps are in. No problem with different orientations of thumbnails.
* "Easy" to implement?
Cons:
* All applications have to have landscape support (as it is today)
* The thumbnail representation of the app might not have the same orientation as the application is currently running. Confusing when switching to and from such an application?
* If you have a portrait app open and go to the dashboard, that app has to rotate to landscape orientation (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334686&postcount=50). Vice versa when in portrait orientation and activating an app in the dashboard. The delay might be irritating (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334933&postcount=87). This con exists already, without rotation of the dashboard.

[christexaport]

I think we're uncovering the reason Nokia hasn't included ASR from the jump. I'd imagine the tiles in the dashboard will show the portrait support only apps, which will come, trust me, in a sideways fashion, just like the device will show them when you hold them in landscape. This might be ugly to Nokia. Hmm...

But I don't let that stop me. I'll still git 'er done!

[ragnar]

I think we're uncovering the reason Nokia hasn't included ASR from the jump. I'd imagine the tiles in the dashboard will show the portrait support only apps, which will come, trust me, in a sideways fashion, just like the device will show them when you hold them in landscape. This might be ugly to Nokia. Hmm...

Also good to read what Anidel wrote (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334675&postcount=45) about GTK.

[christexaport]

I have. Making me have to research more crap I don't know about myself, but nothing I haven't done before. I want someone to make a portrait only app for the N900 so we can find out now how the dashboard will work. October needs to hurry up.

[kanishou]

Idea regarding dashboard and thumbnails (Is this what you proposed (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334517&postcount=72), Thor?):
I am thinking that if all applications continually have to have a landscape version implemented, one way would be to (like now) always display that version on the dashboard. Then all thumbnails would have the same orientation and the array wouldn't be messed up. The issue, visually, would then only be to rotate the thumbnails around their own center axis between the portrait and landscape representation of the dashboard. The contents of each thumbnail would regardless of the orientation of the dashboard be landscape versions of the app.
Pros:
* The array of thumbnails "looks good" regardless of dashboard orientation and what orientation the apps are in. No problem with different orientations of thumbnails.
Cons:
* All applications have to have landscape support (as it is today)
* The thumbnail representation of the app might not have the same orientation as the application currently is running. Confusing when switching to and from such an application?

It's not that simple unfortunately. The thumbnails are not snapshots of the application, they are the actual mapped window, just redirected into a small space. So if the application is currently running in portrait mode, where would the dashboard get the landscape version from?

One possibility would be that an application would have to switch back to landscape mode before the dashboard is opened, so all background applications would always run in landscape. But this would introduce considerable delay every time you access the taskswitcher/daskboard, and another delay after selecting the task (when it switches back to portrait mode).

[nymajoak]

It's not that simple unfortunately. The thumbnails are not snapshots of the application, they are the actual mapped window, just redirected into a small space. So if the application is currently running in portrait mode, where would the dashboard get the landscape version from?

One possibility would be that an application would have to switch back to landscape mode before the dashboard is opened, so all background applications would always run in landscape. But this would introduce considerable delay every time you access the taskswitcher/daskboard, and another delay after selecting the task (when it switches back to portrait mode).

I am probably wrong, but are we not in this situation already today? The dashboard only displays landscape versions of the applications, meaning any applications running in portrait (such as the caller application) are switched when the dashboard is called.

Does this mean we could get into trouble (as the system is designed today) if more applications are implemented with portrait support?

Edit: Only one app should be affected each time and needs to be rotated to or from landscape. The caller/dialer app seems to handle it, without significant delays at least when going TO the dashboard (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334686&postcount=50) (note "fraction of a second"). I assume it works well in the other direction as well (going to the app from the dashboard).

[frals]

Can anyone clarify how it works if you are in Dialer (or whatever the phone app is called :)) in portrait and open up the Dashboard? Does this switch the phone app to landscape or does it show the portraitmode version just rotated 90 degrees?

To me, just rotating the app 90 degrees to make it fit in the window seems good enough of a solution, but I guess Nokia are a bit more picky. ;)

[nymajoak]

Can anyone clarify how it works if you are in Dialer (or whatever the phone app is called :)) in portrait and open up the Dashboard? Does this switch the phone app to landscape
...

Yes, it does (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334686&postcount=50).

[kanishou]

I am probably wrong, but are we not in this situation already today? The dashboard only displays landscape versions of the applications, meaning any applications running in portrait (such as the caller application) are switched when the dashboard is called.

Yes, that's the situation we are in. If that's good enough, we don't need to discuss alternatives. :) But I don't think that anyone using portrait mode exclusively would be satisfied with this behaviour (it is fairly slow).

Does this mean we could get into trouble (as the system is designed today) if more applications are implemented with portrait support?

No, it's just irritating and slow to use the dashboard while in portrait mode. Just disabling the animation if you stay in portrait orientation might help a lot already, but it would still depend on the complexity of the UI that gets rearranged.

[nymajoak]

Yes, that's the situation we are in. If that's good enough, we don't need to discuss alternatives. :) But I don't think that anyone using portrait mode exclusively would be satisfied with this behaviour (it is fairly slow).

No, it's just irritating and slow to use the dashboard while in portrait mode. Just disabling the animation if you stay in portrait orientation might help a lot already, but it would still depend on the complexity of the UI that gets rearranged.

Thanks. :) Sounds like some attention to the issue might be motivated even without rotation of the dashboard -- to not diminish the experience of applications running in portrait mode..

EDIT: What I mean is that is fairly pointless to have ASR/USR if there is not first "good" support for applications in portrait mode. *need sleep*

[christexaport]

so now we need a better way to display portrait apps in the dashboard. But I can work with it as is for now if we had ASR.

[joshua.maverick]

ASR would just please everyone (landscape only lovers can use landscape, portrait only lovers could use portrait, indefferents could use either or whatever they prefer / app). It needs to be done. Seriously.

[christexaport]

ASR would just please everyone (landscape only lovers can use landscape, portrait only lovers could use portrait, indefferents could use either or whatever they prefer / app). It needs to be done. Seriously.

Wow. Someone who actually gets it!!:D

[McChicken]

I prefer to use Portrait most of the time for quick tasks ( Phone reading SMS, emails, Media player...as then I can operate the device with ONE hand (thumb)

[christexaport]

McChicken, your signature says it all. I haven't been satisfied for so long, I'll be very disappointed if I have to go another 6 months to a year waiting for the iconic N95 to be suitably replaced...:(
Come on, Nokia! Show me love, baby.

[frals]

While I don't oppose the Universal Portrait Support option - I find it much better if they implement it for the "most wanted" applications first (e.g. the ones posted on brainstorm?).

On the topic of N95-1, I'm getting this as a replacement for mine as well, regardless of the lack of ASR (disabled since it came on my N95 anyway :P). I'm sure I can work around the lack of portrait in some apps, just as I work with the lack of RAM on my N95 atm ;)

[christexaport]

I agree, frals. I think I'll take anything with an OMAP proc and mounds of memory, even if it didn't have a screen. N95 is finally at the pawn shop to make me really want to upgrade. I'm on crutches right now having to go PC instead of mobile, but it'll make me appreciate the N900 and not rail on the lack of portrait support. Its like a lady:
She's got a bad attitude, but she's still the finest woman in the room, and I'll take by her a drink and take her home anyway.

[nymajoak]

fwiw I added a pro and a con to the dashboard idea (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=334744&postcount=79).

[linuxeventually]

I don't recall if I posted these screenshots anywhere, so bear with me, I took them a long time ago.

Comment: So every application has to be designed for landscape AND portrait mode? O'RLLY?

Familiar landscape on N810
http://lookpic.com/i/770/b4YvlKjw.png

Portrait (hacked by the community)
http://lookpic.com/i/204/fQw0xAJN.png

http://lookpic.com/i/550/B0nk0UIW.png

http://lookpic.com/i/259/vheh2hAY.png

http://lookpic.com/i/398/u1y3snfD.png

http://lookpic.com/i/61/0a0pWdM3.png

http://lookpic.com/i/794/Cfs1Ajos.png

http://lookpic.com/i/197/CfnbDQR.png

http://lookpic.com/i/891/MNGwutKM.png

http://lookpic.com/i/477/1OCDFDSd.png

http://lookpic.com/i/363/cp87oKZ4.png

(VNC) http://lookpic.com/i/403/WoxhiVwr.png

[joshua.maverick]

What's the status on this? Any progress? I recall reading that someone was going to "manage" the project....

[Laughing Man]

Err those pics prove that they're not designed for portrait. They just happen to work ok in portrait at the expense of a user having to adapt to it.

[allnameswereout]

Oh great, a terminal in portrait mode. Ahahaha thanks for the laugh :D come on you can't be serious. It isn't even 80x25. Your font will be much smaller than in landscape mode.

You misunderstood the word designed. It means that the application is optimized for use in a particular mode (landscape or portrait or supports both well). On various of your screenshots you're actually missing information which is in supposed to be on the screen which is a big no-no in usability 101. Add to that the only situation where you are able to show such hidden information is the last which is a remote desktop (VNC, in this case). Well, that was true in landscape mode as well. No sane person uses LogMeIn Ignition on iPhone in portrait mode by default, and the use cases where such is preferred are very, very small. Although it is possible to do so.

None of the examples prove portrait mode is better or easier to use in their case. None of the examples are for finger/touchscreen instead they are for stylus usage.

And the screenshots you posted do not resemble ASR because the rotation is manual because Nokia N8x0/Maemo 4.x doesn't have accelerometer.

My Sharp Zaurus did manual rotation too 5 years ago, on Linux (Qtopia), actually out of the box. Means nothing.

[Branedy]

I think that this one item, the inability to rotate the entire system to landscape, will hinder it's adoption into the general smart phone world. If that is your intention, to market to only Geeks, fine, I have already pre-ordered mine. I'd just like to know.

[christexaport]

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!! thanks Maemo. +1000

[Radicalz38]

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!! thanks Maemo. +1000

rofl :D so this is to show them(previous posters) the power of waiting? :D