N900 - Changes to app manager

[matthewcc]

While doing my daily blog scanning I came across this piece by Michal Jerz of My-symbian.com ( http://My-Symbian.com/?f=40437 )

"...the n900 nokia removed app manager's support to install local .deb files. this means that - unlike on previous tablets - you no longer can just beam a file to the device via bluetooth, or copy it from pc, or just download using the web browser, and tap on it in the file manager to install it. deb files stored locally on the device are not recognized (not associated with app manager) and tapping on them does nothing. from now on, users are expected to install software via repositories only.

it is said to prevent the user from installing incompatible software, or packages missing required dependencies, etc. but this is a poor excuse. the app manager, like on previous tablets, could check for compatibility and missing dependencies of local .deb files and stop installation of incompatible/broken packages, anyway.

more advanced users will still be able to install local packages using x terminal and e.g. dpkg command (unless they block it too), but it should not be like this and linux newbies won't even know about such a possibility..."

I have not seen much on this topic in the forum, though I assume it is because the majority of readers here would be able to manage to workaround.

If the piece is accurate it could be a bit disappointing unless nokia take steps to encourage competition in the app-store area. I was hoping that I would be able to go to multiple 'app stores' to find the tools i want on my device as well as getting them from friends and colleagues.

My question is how much of an issue is this? Is it technical or cultural or both?

[Bratag]

While doing my daily blog scanning I came across this piece by Michal Jerz of My-symbian.com ( http://My-Symbian.com/?f=40437 )



I have not seen much on this topic in the forum, though I assume it is because the majority of readers here would be able to manage to workaround.

If the piece is accurate it could be a bit disappointing unless nokia take steps to encourage competition in the app-store area. I was hoping that I would be able to go to multiple 'app stores' to find the tools i want on my device as well as getting them from friends and colleagues.

My question is how much of an issue is this? Is it technical or cultural or both?

While I dont think this will be a large issue for most "non tech" users who would as a rule just use the OVI interface to install programs. I do see it as an issue for more tech savvy users and I cannot really see the excuse being offered as valid. Can't say its a deal breaker but it is not the direction I want to see the n900 heading.

[zerojay]

While doing my daily blog scanning I came across this piece by Michal Jerz of My-symbian.com ( http://My-Symbian.com/?f=40437 )



I have not seen much on this topic in the forum, though I assume it is because the majority of readers here would be able to manage to workaround.

If the piece is accurate it could be a bit disappointing unless nokia take steps to encourage competition in the app-store area. I was hoping that I would be able to go to multiple 'app stores' to find the tools i want on my device as well as getting them from friends and colleagues.

My question is how much of an issue is this? Is it technical or cultural or both?

Red pill mode pops up an "Install from File" option in the App Manager. No issue here at all.

[ColdFusion]

You can add as many 3rd party repositories as you want. And for the "grandma" user there's really no sense in installing a standalone .deb.
For everyone else there's dpkg.

[pelago]

I think this change is mainly to encourage people to use repositories (where .debs can be updated later and can grab dependencies) rather than installing random debs. Techies can install .debs using dkpg or red-pill mode if they know what they're doing, so they don't lose out.

Regarding other 'app stores', I assume the web-browser and app-manager will still allow one-click installing through .install files (which add a repository and install a .deb and dependencies in one go).

So overall, I don't think this is Nokia trying to restrict competition for downloading software, just encouraging software to be installed the 'correct' (i.e. via a repository) way.

[qgil]

Please move this thread to the Maemo 5 forum since this is no hardware related at all. Thanks!

Yes, the ability to install .deb packages directly was removed from the Application Manager GUI and actually Red Pill mode will be removed at some point as well. The reason is simple: pure end users are better off these paths and advanced users should better learn the right way to do these things.

Most end users out there are used to find executable files somewhere and install them directly, without having any notion of a repository or seeing the relevance of the source where you get your software from. The mobile app stores are helping users realizing that having a known source with some QA process is actually a good thing.

If someone really wants to install single deb files he can do it through the usual Debian way.

And because this is an open platform and there are opinions of all kinds, you can also rely on things like http://maemo.org/packages/view/appinstaller/ (haven't tried myself, just saw it the other day and made me recall the day Urho told to Marius and me that he was not very happy about the removal of the deb installation in the HAM UI. :)

[kamakazikev24]

From someone new to this platform (soon to be ex iphone 3g user) I can see that it will be a far better way to automatically keep the installed apps up to date.

[lma]

So overall, I don't think this is Nokia trying to restrict competition for downloading software, just encouraging software to be installed the 'correct' (i.e. via a repository) way.

Hopefully this will finally convince various app publishers (eg third-party ones like Devicescape, Boingo and Access but also Ovi and Nokia Beta Labs) to set up proper repositories too.

[GeneralAntilles]

Hopefully this will finally convince various app publishers (eg third-party ones like Devicescape, Boingo and Access but also Ovi and Nokia Beta Labs) to set up proper repositories too.

i.e., submit their applications to Extras or distribute through Nokia's catalog.

[lma]

i.e., submit their applications to Extras or distribute through Nokia's catalog.

Somehow I don't see Corporation X putting up with the extras-devel -> extras-testing -> minimum 10 days quarantine and wait for karma and votes -> extras bureaucracy (at least that's how it will be perceived). In the commercial world you want your app widely available the moment you reveal it.

But own-hosted repositories are still much better than the current "post a link to a .deb in a web page" situation.

[ossipena]

i prefer dpkg -i anyway. much faster than installing deb with app manager in os2008.

[GeneralAntilles]

Somehow I don't see Corporation X putting up with the extras-devel -> extras-testing -> minimum 10 days quarantine and wait for karma and votes -> extras bureaucracy (at least that's how it will be perceived). In the commercial world you want your app widely available the moment you reveal it.


Well, lots of them did it for Maemo 4. Sure, we have QA now, but it's not a lot more work than hosting your own and it certainly gives you a much wider audience.

These same companies have no issue dealing with an exceptionally more stringent QA process on other platforms, I don't see why they would have an issue dealing with it on ours.

[YoDude]

i prefer dpkg -i anyway. much faster than installing deb with app manager in os2008.

I somehow see this post being dug up and you being asked to "please 'splain" by new users sometimes after the n900 drops on the general population.

As to the comments about what "most end users" or what "corporation x" will do; that all depends on timing and availability.

If the Extras repository or Nokia's catalog do not have what end users need (or think they need) they will look elsewhere or explore alternative methods.
If corporation x, in competition with corporations y and z perceives a delay in distribution may give the competition an advantage, they will create alternative distribution methods.


I mean, that is why a lot of us use this forum in the first place. The draw was necessity and not the witty exchanges and playful logical excursions over points and counterpoints. :p

[rcadden]

I agree that it's much better overall for various developers (independent and commercial) to use the proper repositories, rather than just creating their own.

We ran into this with previous versions of Maemo, and not only does having countless extra repositories make application discovery a nightmare, but it also opens those repositories up to not using the proper guidelines, such as the 'type' of application, or whatever it's called - the tags that allow you to 'browse' by type, rather than simply scrolling through a huge list of available applications.

Plus, for the developer, it's going to be so much more difficult to convince and instruct users how to add a custom repository than it would be to simply submit the app to the proper repositories.

I'm all for it, and think this is actually an awesome move by Maemo to become more user-friendly.

[YoDude]

I agree that it's much better overall for various developers (independent and commercial) to use the proper repositories, rather than just creating their own.

We ran into this with previous versions of Maemo, and not only does having countless extra repositories make application discovery a nightmare, but it also opens those repositories up to not using the proper guidelines, such as the 'type' of application, or whatever it's called - the tags that allow you to 'browse' by type, rather than simply scrolling through a huge list of available applications.

Plus, for the developer, it's going to be so much more difficult to convince and instruct users how to add a custom repository than it would be to simply submit the app to the proper repositories.

I'm all for it, and think this is actually an awesome move by Maemo to become more user-friendly.

I agree 100%, however the method must be available 100% with severs, servers, and more servers if needed... and available at all times. (did I say servers?)

[R-R]

Not to mention that having a central repository, even if mirrored, make it easier to sign every package with a GPG key so that apt-get / dpkg can actually verify that it's coming from the right source and that the mirror wasn't hacked... (Is this done already?)

Also, when redpill will be gone, gainroot will be in the default repository ?
(is it already there? I remember actually gaining root after installing ssh but it's been a long time since i flashed my n810...)

[JayOnThaBeat]

Also, when redpill will be gone, gainroot will be in the default repository ?
(is it already there? I remember actually gaining root after installing ssh but it's been a long time since i flashed my n810...)

rootsh is in Extras, if that's what you mean.

[Jaffa]

Somehow I don't see Corporation X putting up with the extras-devel -> extras-testing -> minimum 10 days quarantine and wait for karma and votes -> extras bureaucracy (at least that's how it will be perceived). In the commercial world you want your app widely available the moment you reveal it.

The big advantage of using Extras to the nebulous Corporation X is that it's available out-of-the-box on every device. All the user has to do is look in the App Manager, and they can see you app.

=> much larger audience.

[lma]

Well, lots of them did it for Maemo 4.

Not that many, basically just Hava & Digia going from what I can see in extras non-free.

Sure, we have QA now, but it's not a lot more work than hosting your own and it certainly gives you a much wider audience.

It's not about work, but about managing the release on their terms. Starting the extras QA process means going public before users can actually get to the app (and no, we really don't want third party publishers to urge end users to use extras-testing).

[rcadden]

I agree 100%, however the method must be available 100% with severs, servers, and more servers if needed... and available at all times. (did I say servers?)

Of course. I think we all remember certain situations in Maemo history where this was an issue, lol.

[dthoaforum]

Back to original question, I think it would be nice if there is a way to install apps from local. The situation is like this: After I install 100 apps, I flash a new firmware, but I don't want to repeat 100 times waiting for downloading and installing. Is there anyway to install all apps in a folder at the same time. Thanks.

[fnordianslip]

If you perform a backup and restore it after reflashing, it (Application Manager) should allow you to reinstall all the apps you had when you did the backup. I've not actually tried this with the N900, but that is my expectation.

[dthoaforum]

How about install new apps?
Would you let your phone download 1GB offline Navigation apps and install? Some dictionaries are more than 400MBs, how can we wait for that long?
I wish Nokia PC Suite has some functions like iTune in which we can download apps in Nokia PC Suite and sync with N900 so that we don't have to wait for downloading, and we can install many apps at the same time; we can also download apps from somewhere else, paste to NPS and sync with N900.