View Full Version : Maemo 6 UI Framework
Today there have been many news, and one of the most significant is http://qt.gitorious.org/maemo-6-ui-framework
Yes, it's pure source code. The foundation of the concepts (http://gizmodo.com/5377966/nokias-next-os-maemo-6-could-look-like-this) shown by Janne Heikkinen this morning.
I am not impressed with its UI :\
Hell, I like to have many desktops!
Although I like it being totally open sourced
Edit: Enabling ("Show your signature")
Are you understanding these UI concepts? Because they are based on the existance of "many desktops". You have a big canvas and you can scroll horizontally (like Maemo 5 does) and vertically as well.
Hogwash
10-09-2009, 02:52 PM
You kids and your UI needs. If you were real men you'd be happy with a green-on-black console.
Also today's release is actually not open source, but a technology preview e.g. http://qt.gitorious.org/maemo-6-ui-framework/homescreen-technical-preview/blobs/master/LICENSE
But don't be confused, these components will have an open source license as soon as we start developing them openly. What we have done today is basically a code drop for platform developers and anybody interested in this toolkit on top of Qt.
ARJWright
10-09-2009, 02:56 PM
Are you understanding these UI concepts? Because they are based on the existance of "many desktops". You have a big canvas and you can scroll horizontally (like Maemo 5 does) and vertically as well.
I need to read thru the docs, but if there is gesture and position control to this, then this is the kind of UI that sci-fi movies are made of.
I probably don't need to look though, my N97 ain't getting this platform, and I'm a bugger for things I can dream/see and can't have :P
The source code is there to proof that this is no sci-fi.
abubakar
10-09-2009, 03:20 PM
The source code is there to proof that this is no sci-fi.
Hey any ideas on when a maemo 6 device will show up ? Any rough estimate? Will it be definittely by late 2010 or 2011?
thanks.
You kids and your UI needs. If you were real men you'd be happy with a green-on-black console.
First thing, Don't think I am kinda in love with UI things,however I consider them a bounce to get your job done faster!.
I even don't have a gdm autostarted and I do start it when I need too (/usr/sbin/gdm -nodeamon) , the same goes for (dhcpcd) and others. So don't talk a garbage like that unless you know me.
Also your generalizing wasn't appreciated
Well here are few screen-shots of my current desktop to get you a better idea of how I do prefer my desktop to looks like.
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/6590/screenshot2zg.th.png (http://img14.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2zg.png/) http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8525/screenshot1ne.th.png (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/screenshot1ne.png/)http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5706/screenshot3c.th.png (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/screenshot3c.png/)
(Please notice that this screenshots were taken from a closed down system , so I had to start few things to get you better idea in the way I use [I usually having 2 websites running on 2 desktops , 1 PDF , 1 with many applications running] and it changes according to the way it fits me)
Are you understanding these UI concepts? Because they are based on the existance of "many desktops". You have a big canvas and you can scroll horizontally (like Maemo 5 does) and vertically as well.
From these pictures It looks like it going to kill the desktops feature (Which you can consider it a backward step and not what I was excepting out of step5). However, if the desktops feature is available than I am cool with it.
Edit: As I can't seem to find the reverse of thanks you can consider from now on my 'Thanks' as a negative thing (More of "-Thanks")
Edit2: Enabling ("Show your signature")
I'm personally turned off that the N900 isn't even really out and Nokia is already pushing Maemo 6. It really is a device that should be ignored and not purchased since it's just a stepping stone to the next OS.
I would imagine that Nokia would actually like to sell some N900 units. So, why are they sending the feeling that they aren't really interested in Maemo 5 and have already moved on? I bet they want us to feel that things are moving forward, but in my mind, I'm being left behind.
ARJWright
10-09-2009, 03:52 PM
I'm personally turned off that the N900 isn't even really out and Nokia is already pushing Maemo 6. It really is a device that should be ignored and not purchased since it's just a stepping stone to the next OS.
I would imagine that Nokia would actually like to sell some N900 units. So, why are they sending the feeling that they aren't really interested in Maemo 5 and have already moved on? I bet they want us to feel that things are moving forward, but in my mind, I'm being left behind.
Nokia isn't *pushing* Maemo 6; they are putting the product out there early enough so that developers can get on the ball towards (a) learning Qt, and (b) seeing what is possible and catching bugs before they become show-stoppers. The same thing was done with Maemo 5, and the same thing still across several other platforms.
By the way, if you've not had a chance, check out the roadmap. Things are moving along just as they were said to do *years* ago.
GeneralAntilles
10-09-2009, 04:00 PM
I'm personally turned off that the N900 isn't even really out and Nokia is already pushing Maemo 6. It really is a device that should be ignored and not purchased since it's just a stepping stone to the next OS.
Perhaps one of the issues with an open development process is that it takes focus off of your current offerings for those who are informed.
vivainio
10-09-2009, 04:02 PM
Now *this* is news, esp. this early.
Now that it's outed, may I assume you can actually compile and run this somewhere apart from internal Harmattan SDK? Would there be a theoretical possibility to run directui apps on N900?
Nokia isn't *pushing* Maemo 6; they are putting the product out there early enough so that developers can get on the ball towards (a) learning Qt, and (b) seeing what is possible and catching bugs before they become show-stoppers. The same thing was done with Maemo 5, and the same thing still across several other platforms.
By the way, if you've not had a chance, check out the roadmap. Things are moving along just as they were said to do *years* ago.
Thanks for the information. I'm just a little frustrated still as, I believe, Nokia should be putting 100% into making killer apps, improving the current Maemo 5 OS, improving the developer tool kits before even really spending the time on Maemo 6. Is Maemo 5 even technically available on a product in the store yet? I'm not sure because I read that the date kept changing and was so turned off by the speculation, set backs, reviews, etc. that there isn't, what I feel is, one cohesive voice.
I tried to rally my friends around the N900, feeling that Maemo is finally moving into the spotlight that it deserved. But they ask questions like, is this program available for it, or that one, etc. The answer is, well, if someone wants to re-compile/update the program, it will work. But, of course, they and the general world wants it to be more turn-key. That's where I feel the time spent on Maemo 6 is being wasted when they can make those apps. Yes, Maemo 6 is important but can't it wait at least a month after the N900 is available?
ARJWright
10-09-2009, 04:10 PM
Thanks for the information. I'm just a little frustrated still as, I believe, Nokia should be putting 100% into making killer apps, improving the current Maemo 5 OS, improving the developer tool kits before even really spending the time on Maemo 6. Is Maemo 5 even technically available on a product in the store yet? I'm not sure because I read that the date kept changing and was so turned off by the speculation, set backs, reviews, etc. that there isn't, what I feel is, one cohesive voice.
I tried to rally my friends around the N900, feeling that Maemo is finally moving into the spotlight that it deserved. But they ask questions like, is this program available for it, or that one, etc. The answer is, well, if someone wants to re-compile/update the program, it will work. But, of course, they and the general world wants it to be more turn-key. That's where I feel the time spent on Maemo 6 is being wasted when they can make those apps. Yes, Maemo 6 is important but can't it wait at least a month after the N900 is available?
Ah, I get you and that's probably the "communication" aspect of Maemo that needs to be worked on more than anything.
I'd pesonally not tell anyone that using Maemo is as simple as recompiling your application and then turning it on. There's just too much from different paradigms of use that should be considered. That being said, this framework makes it easier to do so, and for a developer-minded person, this is a good thing to know now - as developing in similar frameworks for Maemo 5 means that when 6 comes along that your work isn't wasted at all.
Could it have waited? Sure. But that would have also meant that Nokia should have waited until properly letting out Maemo 5 and the N900 at Nokia World instead of that pre-show publication. Times change and things happen, unfortnately, this is just as much true in marketing as it is in development.
livefreeordie
10-09-2009, 04:12 PM
Personally, I don't think I'd like to use the canvas concept. It looks like it would be too easy to get lost, and it seems like a long way to scroll corner to corner.
4 screens seems pretty optimal to me, but I'm just one user. How much testing have you done on this?
Munk, I started this thread in the Development forum with a link to a git repository. If you feel frustration is probably because you are not a developer and you are not familiar with open source practices.
Maemo 6 brings a new toolkit developed on top of Qt, and those understanding about platform development understand that the sooner we show code and concepts the better in order to get feedback from developers and start public iterations.
Also the Maemo 6 announcements yesterday are useful to Maemo 5 developers willing to work on applications right no but willing to know what are the mid term plans and in which direction to focus the current work.
Hogwash
10-09-2009, 08:55 PM
well said, qgil :)
in the end every device so far have been dev platforms and experiments, with increasing general customer involvement...
allnameswereout
10-09-2009, 09:30 PM
Thanks for the information. I'm just a little frustrated still as, I believe, Nokia should be putting 100% into making killer apps, improving the current Maemo 5 OS, improving the developer tool kits before even really spending the time on Maemo 6. Is Maemo 5 even technically available on a product in the store yet? I'm not sure because I read that the date kept changing and was so turned off by the speculation, set backs, reviews, etc. that there isn't, what I feel is, one cohesive voice.
I tried to rally my friends around the N900, feeling that Maemo is finally moving into the spotlight that it deserved. But they ask questions like, is this program available for it, or that one, etc. The answer is, well, if someone wants to re-compile/update the program, it will work. But, of course, they and the general world wants it to be more turn-key. That's where I feel the time spent on Maemo 6 is being wasted when they can make those apps. Yes, Maemo 6 is important but can't it wait at least a month after the N900 is available?Nokia made or improved killer apps, and some issues in Maemo 5 (such as portrait mode browsing or lack of MMS) can be worked on by Nokia or community if problem & solutions are well outlined on Brainstorm. Think of evolution in this regard; not revolution. Ie 5.0.1 or 5.1.
Ofcourse Maemo 6 will do a lot different. That is why its 6 and not 5.1 or 5.5. Every major Maemo version brings huge changes. Meanwhile, Maemo 5 will be released with all the killer apps Nokia made or improved, as well as providing libraries and abstraction layers to be used in 3rd party applications. Heck, and the whole UI. I'd not expect UI be totally revamped again for Maemo 6. Tweaked a bit here and there, possibly, but not totally different. Many reasons for that. 1) its now finger touch meant to stay 2) HW can allow this (e.g. 2D/3D rendering), in future too 3) you don't want users to completely unlearn UI 4) last but not least you don't invest so much time and money into a UI to then completely abandon it. Unless its epic failure.
So in short, it is not only Nokia providing end-user software, they also invested a lot of time, energy, money, and love in 'under the hood' stuff. Not only UI. Location API, OpenGL, Gecko, iCalendar, UPnP-AV, AV codecs, etc etc. Maemo 6 switching to Qt and backwards compatibility worries me a little too, but I think the transition is meant to go smooth. Not as big as N8x0 -> N900 but rather N800 -> N810; or N900 -> N920 ;).
Laughing Man
10-09-2009, 10:03 PM
I just hope for two things..
1) None of this "fixed in freemantle" business when it comes to things you could implement into the older OS. One of my friends who ironically got the n800 before me (I wouldn't even consider it till a year later when I was looking for an mp3 player that could do more then just mp3s) is holding off on the n900 simply for the reason they haven't fixed I think WPA certificates or something along those lines.
2) That they don't alienate the buyers and developers too much (unless Nokia plans on giving a nWhatever to each major developer to have them make applications for the new NWhatever).
Already I can tell that a focus on a complete finger touch UI is going to be problematic in the future. For the simple reason that the nWhatever and Nokia is not the iPhone and Apple. Not unless Nokia wants to have control like Apple. Then not to mention the problem of if a developer wants to maintain software on both devices assuming he/she has access to both.
allnameswereout
10-09-2009, 10:50 PM
Already I can tell that a focus on a complete finger touch UI is going to be problematic in the future. For the simple reason that the nWhatever and Nokia is not the iPhone and Apple. Not unless Nokia wants to have control like Apple.Right now we have stylus. Precision is sometimes useful for backwards compatibility apps, interaction with remote desktop, or apps where its only way of usage. If next devices go capacitive this feature is lost, but it depends on what the gains are of such sacrifice. If some device is still resistive but not hold stylus you're still free to use stylus with it.
Why is complete finger touch UI somehow magically requiring control like Apple? Nokia can define HIG just like Apple, and have high quality assurance for application before admitted to Ovi. And much better integration with social networks, tagging (metadata/context) to find the right software for the right job.
Maemo community or anyone who wishes to is free to add repositories. Including software which isn't for finger touch UI. I don't think such software will be preferred by the masses though, especially since finger touch UI software will be more and more available around that time.
Given there is no DRM in APT repositories, nor some kind of system-wide jail, Nokia cannot and won't follow the path of Apple. Maybe we'll see some DRM on games or some software or services, but not on every application, like on iPhone.
Just because Apple has to jail its users, with many escaping that jail and doing some nifty work, doesn't mean Maemo users running Nokia products for finger touch UI must suffer the same faith just because Apple iPhone also is finger touch UI only.
Learn from the good and bad things of your competitor, but don't copy the bad ones, work around them instead, using rich heritage as your weapon. Together, you not become as good, you become better. Much better. :cool:
Hmm or else I guess the hardware keyboard was a mistake. Because Apple iPhone doesn't have it either.. and so forth.. :p
Laughing Man
10-09-2009, 11:33 PM
My point regarding Apple is more the HIG standards. Not because they have it or they don't have it, etc..They can assure no problems using software because of their standards. True Nokia can set the HIG standards for Ovi and indeed most of the masses will be using only Ovi (and maybe Extras?) so it won't be a problem. But for people who use other software from other sources a finger touch UI is going be problematic if the UI doesn't follow HIG standards. Well until they make that precise capacitative touch screen stylus cheap enough. Though given the imprecision of a capacitative touch screen (the target has to be bigger due to the size of the finger) I wonder how a stylus would work anyway...
Edit: Shame there's no way to get the benefits of both types of screens. The ease and finger use of a capacitative with the precision of resisitive. It seems no matter what you choose you will lose something else (noticed that when going from my n800 to my cousin's iPhone 3G and back).
allnameswereout
10-09-2009, 11:51 PM
Yes, we agree, except I don't see the problem.
For users it is not a problem because of Nokia but because they're used to HIG. The more you used to HIG the more it pisses off when sth doesn't follow HIG.
For power users and hackers they are free because no jailbreak. About the only limit is the hardware. E.g. no digital compass on N900, no dual SD on N900, no capacitive touchscreen on N900, no quad core x86-64 with 100W TDP or 4 GB RAM :D. IOW, the hardware is also precisely the strong point of the device. That some people insist on constantly keeping to use the Maemo device as PC desktop, well, I find it masochistic, but they're free to do so.
Only thing is, that the defaults (which may indeed involve hardware) will be more atuned to what the average, normal user wants instead of the power user or hacker/developer.
Laughing Man
10-10-2009, 12:05 AM
My concern is more what you stated in the later of your post. I guess it's more because I'm concerned that as we move towards the capacitative and future then we'll be forced to choose between a device that no longer has the ability to do what its predecessors did (e.g. run Debian, KDE, ported Linux software) for the sake of being too consumer friendly. I was hoping there would be a way to have both (naive I know). But maybe have the Nokia + Ovi side + software people create that's user friendly be for those who just want to use the Maemo devices as a smartphone. And have the hacking community here + interesting software that we're use to here. And for those of us who are interesting in using the device in these ways, the move to hardware such as that puts a constraint on those activities since it'll be hard to re-write an entire interface!
It's more interesting now because of the fact of things like TV out, bluetooth mouse support, etc.. Imagine taking the n900 that runs something like Easy Debian and just plugging in the inputs and mouse and using it as a portable computer. As long as you had a display you could jack into!
But then again I guess the argument could be..
Well use the more precise technical side when everything is setup then.
Or if they implemented that browser mouse on an OS level then that would work too! (HINT: IDEA)
allnameswereout
10-10-2009, 12:28 AM
May or may not be possible, depends more on hardware than software. Case in point: USB host mode. Software is there. Its a hardware issue.
Point is, that the need to run a desktop on your mobile device becomes less and less because the mobile device provides slowly but surely a better alternative because hardware is powerful enough and applications are optimized for it (the size, amount of resources, special hardware for on the move like accelerometer, GPS, 3G, finger UI touchscreen). This happens as the quantity and quality of finger touch UI applications improves.
If I want a full Linux desktop I either use a laptop/PC or whatever or a mobile device with remote desktop, with resuming (and much more..), and plenty of resources. With a N900 thats easier cause it has 3G. Heck, remote desktop over 3G with output on screen is possible too. Although you'd still need a mouse too. Or a Wiimote. ;)
On an iPhone, there is LogMeIn Ignition. In portrait mode its quite nifty once you get the gestures, and multi touch is indeed useful in such case. Cannot compare it with the browser plugin for Maemo. Is it perfect? No way. Does it get the job done? Yup.
Laughing Man
10-10-2009, 01:02 AM
Ah, but remote desktoping requires you to leave your computer on at home.. which is quite the electricity bill generator. I tend to shut down my electronics (outside of portables). Especially if I'm on vacation (I tend to turn off the power to the house too to prevent any possible fires). Though if there was a way to boot up and login to a PC from far away..(no automated password entry)
And I don't think there could ever be complete better alternatives for desktop software. Decent alternatives? Yes. Even the iPhone with its head start and developers haven't shown that yet. Even the most feature packed applications like graphic manipulation and creation on the iPhone still have some issues due to the screen's sensitivity. Though they do come close (though I would rather have the ability to have a full graphics suite with precise pin point control.
Edit: It just seems like to me, the farther they move away from its tablet's roots the possibilities for some uses decrease, while others increase. But as the others increase, the more homogenous it becomes to other devices (and we all know popular hardware and OS features will be copied to other platforms too and vice versa). So then it becomes an issue of why bother owning this particular device if it's not that different from the others in hardware, and capabilties?
allnameswereout
10-10-2009, 02:01 AM
Ah, but remote desktoping requires you to leave your computer on at home.. which is quite the electricity bill generator. I tend to shut down my electronics (outside of portables). Especially if I'm on vacation (I tend to turn off the power to the house too to prevent any possible fires). Though if there was a way to boot up and login to a PC from far away..(no automated password entry)True, but differs per computer. Obviously not your 1 kW/h game rig. There are some very low power desktop ones nowadays. Maybe the machines run on work, or you host some desktops for several folks. You can make a low power server. Some modems can even be hacked to run additional software, taking over functions of a PC. You can use WOL to send a magic packet to your PC's NIC, and if that beast runs Windows you don't have to log in local first, you can just use RDP (preferably over SSH) provided you enabled RDP server.
And I don't think there could ever be complete better alternatives for desktop software. Decent alternatives? Yes.Exactly, neither is perfect, but you use whatever best applies to situation. In the situation of the properties of the Nokia N900 while on vacation in Sicily thats different than having your laptop on your toilet or your PC in your office room. The goals of device are different, the hardware is different. It might be same person, but situations are very different.
Even the iPhone with its head start and developers haven't shown that yet. Even the most feature packed applications like graphic manipulation and creation on the iPhone still have some issues due to the screen's sensitivity. Though they do come close (though I would rather have the ability to have a full graphics suite with precise pin point control.Yes, this was also discussed in co creation thread. Sometimes, you just want the full Photoshop package. Sometimes not, then the mobile application is good enough (and in some situations, better than desktop software). Matters on case by case (location, purpose, person, connectivity, weight ability carry, size ability carry, what you have with you, ...). Having the choice is good.
It just seems like to me, the farther they move away from its tablet's roots the possibilities for some uses decrease, while others increase. But as the others increase, the more homogenous it becomes to other devices (and we all know popular hardware and OS features will be copied to other platforms too and vice versa). So then it becomes an issue of why bother owning this particular device if it's not that different from the others in hardware, and capabilties?If you don't want to sell volume, don't want to grow, then you can keep focusing on a bunch of geeks/nerds/power_users. But that isn't Nokia's goal. And, even then, OpenMoko did not stay sharp on one toolkit, did not provide stable GSM, did not provide 3G. OpenPandora, hmm, well, lots of talk, little walk.
Meanwhile, Maemo is still Maemo. It is very different from competitors yet it has evolved IOW does not remain static. Luckily not! It supports (and Nokia has developed!) Freedesktop standards. Apple not. Apple doesn't use X11. Apple doesn't use PulseAudio. The only standard they gave to the open source community is I think zeroconf/bonjour (yes they do support CUPS and WebKit thats not the point), and they won't implement PulseAudio.
If you want to support standards and things which are common you need to get rid of weird stuff, while if you want to stay unique one of those ways are to frighten your competitors with patents, while you keep non-standard compliant and obfuscate attempts, like Microsoft did with Windows (AD, CIFS, MSIE, DirectX, ...). So meanwhile UI designers from e.g. Palm, Google, Nokia aren't frightened and implement alternatives (or standard-compliant), sometimes even becoming better, while doing uttermost best not copying the bad things, the rotten apples so to say.
And then there is corporate/ethnic profile. Finnish Nokia just isn't Californian Apple. But is it wrong for a UI designer to appreciate the work a UI designer from a competitor has done? I find it rather logic such happens because the UI designer knows how hard the task was, and if expressed in natural and honest I put my hat off. You can look at people running marathon, and you may be able to empathize, but if you ran a marathon yourself, its different level of empathizing.
Going back to the precise point of this thread. One line of feedback is that such canvas full of widgets might be "confusing". Well, it indeed can be if the first day you get your device you turn it on and you find all that!
But on your first day the canvas will be that: basically a canvas. With some basic functionality proposed in the pre-configuration but then the ability to edit and add as much as you wish.
Some users will leave it more or less as it came from the factory, others will keep it simple, others will put a lot of stuff, others will put a lot of stuff the second day and then go back to simple, others will add slowly widgets until having something complex they are totally familiar with...
Nothing new actually since this is what happens to PC desktops and probably will happen to the Maemo 5 canvas as well.
I am wondering is there by a chance there is a possibility to allow the user to pick his interface? Like changing the default DE (desktop environment) , Window manger , etc ...
And by meaning "Changing" it, I mean setting it into the same way of how maemo5 acts now.
The current way looks more crowded then it should.
For the god sake of user mentality. No one can stare to more than 15 things at the same time for a long period of time without having a headache.
I am not asking here about adding it into brainstorming ,but I am asking for chances of getting this happening.
Well, just a reminder: if it ain't broken don't fix it. ;)
Maemo is an open platform and whether it's 5 or 6 doesn't make any difference on this. If someone comes with an alternative window manager that works and seduces end users, then fine.
If you find disturbing having more than 3 widgets then have no more than 3 widgets and be fine with that. Maemo won't force you to have all desktops full of widgets....
... but if by the day this comes to your hands you find out that navigagting across widgets in a same canvas actually saves plenty of time and clicks compared to clicking icons in order to open and close fullscreen apps... Then Maemo will havesomething for you as well.
ragnar
10-10-2009, 06:11 AM
The current way looks more crowded then it should.
For the god sake of user mentality. No one can stare to more than 15 things at the same time for a long period of time without having a headache.
I am not asking here about adding it into brainstorming ,but I am asking for chances of getting this happening.
Yes, if you want to have only a couple of items on the canvas, and limit it to only one page, there's nothing preventing you from doing that.
I personally think of this a bit like what happens with Facebook profile pages. Some people like to keep them really clean, others (especially younger people) might like a really long page, this kind of "information overload". The framework is flexible enough to allow both.
Maemo is an open platform and whether it's 5 or 6 doesn't make any difference on this. If someone comes with an alternative window manager that works and seduces end users, then fine.
If you find disturbing having more than 3 widgets then have no more than 3 widgets and be fine with that. Maemo won't force you to have all desktops full of widgets....
... but if by the day this comes to your hands you find out that navigagting across widgets in a same canvas actually saves plenty of time and clicks compared to clicking icons in order to open and close fullscreen apps... Then Maemo will havesomething for you as well.
I know about the customiziblity which I am not trying to talk about it here. The word "Canvas" is what concerns me. I think I am not that updated in this aspect ,but I never hear anyone used this term*** with desktop environment (Could I be the only one in the world who don't know it?) Wiki ,etc ... didn't get me anything about this "Canvas UI".
I am not sure if you do mean by "Canvas" as within *tiling window manager which might get more sense than the way I understand it (Relates to web gadgets) . Still, I am more of waiting for an answer to clear this for me.
*I mean by "Tiling window manager" like: XMonad (Link ) (http://xmonad.org/) - Awsome (Link) (http://awesome.naquadah.org/) - Wimii (Link)
(http://wmii.suckless.org/)
Yes, if you want to have only a couple of items on the canvas, and limit it to only one page, there's nothing preventing you from doing that.
I personally think of this a bit like what happens with Facebook profile pages. Some people like to keep them really clean, others (especially younger people) might like a really long page, this kind of "information overload". The framework is flexible enough to allow both.
There is a small problem, I don't have/use Facebook/social sites. Which this might be one of the reasons why I don't understand this concept.
Anyway, I am waiting for someone to clear this "Canvas" to me.
Laughing Man
10-10-2009, 11:57 AM
@allnameswereout
True, you could use a computer with lower power requirements. Though I'm not sure if I would ever build one, but then again considering most games are just going to consoles nowadays and I don't have as much time to play videogames, I may not need a gaming desktop anymore. I'll have to look up Linux solutions for use over the internet without logging in.
As for your later half of the posts, yes that's partially what attracted me to the Maemo platform (when I was first considering the n800, Android + G1, and the iPhone were the others). But it was also the capability of the device to do so much more if the user desired. I just wonder if in the long run if that aspect or capability is going go away due to hardware and UI changes.
Edit: And to get back on-topic.
The Canvas idea is interesting to say the least. Not sure I understand it though like f(x). Is it more like the desktop solutions where all windows are available to see and use. That's what it appears like to me (with the funny Windows 95 looking drawings =P) Or is it more like information at a glance, an expansion of the widget system? Kinda like a Google personalized homepage where you can add all the gadgets you want.
On a sidenote, I don't see why this also couldn't be brought to the n900 (minus the multi-touch, capacitative features and whatever new hardware).
eiffel
10-10-2009, 12:39 PM
I think it's great that developers can see where Maemo 6 is headed.
And that Canvas suggests that the Harmattan leak from May (http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/05/18/exclusive-leaked-screenshot-of-nokias-maemo-harmattan/) was genuine. Imagine four of those stacked side-by-side.
Regards,
Roger
ColdFusion
10-10-2009, 01:12 PM
For those that don't understand what the "Canvas" means, it's actually an old concept - Scrolling Desktop.
You can test it on you desktop to see how it might work. Just get a small monitor with low resolution.
freppas
10-10-2009, 10:27 PM
1. Does he canvas move smoothly or in "jumps"?
2. If it moves in jumps will there be an overview section and/or the abiliy to selected the number of jumps (defacto setting the size of the canvas)?
If I understand it correctly the canvas is actually just an extension of the many home screens that exist now. The questions hat have been raised have been mostly about this extension creating clutter or making it harder to navigate?
Couldn't these problems be, at least partly, solved by letting the usen choose how big the canvas is like we choose cells in a table inserted in a word document and having an overview section similar to the one now existing for applications in Maemo 5?
What I'm envisioning is basically a pulldown menu where you pull to choose X*Y number of boxes for your canvas. hen going to a birds-eye view for some of the navigation (although this might have to be split up for larger canvases).
Laughing Man
10-10-2009, 10:42 PM
Wouldn't this be similar to the idea of virtual desktops on computers? At least when I looked closer at the picture that's what it seemed like to me. Not necessarily a tiling window manager where all windows are exposed.
ARJWright
10-10-2009, 10:55 PM
I would have thought that of all the things that are a bit confusing about UI, that the idea of a canvas wouldn't be one of them.
Think workspaces, or the extended desktop metaphor used in many desktop OSes. Except they are *stitched* together as one whole. Because the resolution and physical size of the sum of these stitched screens is greater than that of the device, you begin to pan through each.
Depending on the implementation, it could be smooth or not - that's up to the UI design from that end. Ideally, it should be going in one direction (left to right/right to left or top to bottom/bottom to top). But that can be something that the UI frameworks of Maemo 6 leaves to the users to stitch together.
*throwing this in there
Imagine that you had this canvas, and by holding a function button and doing a gesture with the device that you could move between those parts of the canvas. Imagine what that does for creativity and productivity applications. Also, with the fact that you have a greater resolution being used - for the canvas as a whole - imagine what you could pump out via a TV-Out/HDMI-Out facility. Imagine how that device can now be useful for traditional computing tasks, but when its physically in a mobile context, it submits to that end as well.
This is what's possible, now ;)
Laughing Man
10-10-2009, 11:05 PM
Hmm, ok so I'm beginning to see what you mean. It's something similar to if you specify a resolution bigger then your monitor in Linux (something you have to do sometimes to get around limitations when using dual monitors) combined with the idea of virtual desktops but instead of having to switch between each of them (well you still are, but now it's just panning around instead of switching between them with a keypress).
And that Canvas suggests that the Harmattan leak from May (http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/05/18/exclusive-leaked-screenshot-of-nokias-maemo-harmattan/) was genuine. Imagine four of those stacked side-by-side.
Regards,
Roger
For those that don't understand what the "Canvas" means, it's actually an old concept - Scrolling Desktop.
You can test it on you desktop to see how it might work. Just get a small monitor with low resolution.
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Now that's makes more sense! with the pictures that is provided by Eiffel and ColdFusion's explanation.
About using small monitor, It happens also when you use higher resolution than your monitor supports (The visible desktop will be following the mouse position).
Edit: Laughing Man got it first! (by 13 minutes! - Blame my breakfast + for opening this tab). Still, it also happens on Windows.
I guess it could behave as the n900, where it seems to snap to the majority 'desktop' on removal of input.
Also, one could have a zoom out...
allnameswereout
10-11-2009, 01:14 AM
Hmm, ok so I'm beginning to see what you mean. It's something similar to if you specify a resolution bigger then your monitor in Linux (something you have to do sometimes to get around limitations when using dual monitors) combined with the idea of virtual desktops but instead of having to switch between each of them (well you still are, but now it's just panning around instead of switching between them with a keypress).Or like this: a 320x240 resolution because of X configuration error (1 (http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-user@lists.debian.org/msg311789.html), 2 (http://www.nylug.org/pipermail/nylug-talk/2002-May/003871.html)). Oh, the memories.. and nightmares.. :D
You can have a virtual screen (desktop), which is screen area that is larger than the physical screen and which is panned by moving the mouse to the edge of the screen. If you don't want virtual desktop at a certain resolution, you cannot have modes listed that are larger. Each color depth can have a differently-sized virtual screen
Please answer the following question with either 'y' or 'n'.
Do you want a virtual screen that is larger than the physical screen?Its also explained here. (http://www.linuxhq.com/guides/GS/node7.html)
So this is a feature which has long existed in X, and was once a time quite useful.
Problem is that it didn't have that 'sticky' feature, like for example Winamp has traditionally had. So, because it didn't have that, and ofcourse the desktop windows didn't have pre-defined sizes and such, it went like madness scrolling. Made me crazy, never fully recovered.. :D
Something like Expose tries to solve this, by placing the windows intelligently in unused desktop space. But there is lack of pre-defined window sizes, and if you run Dashboard in background (you don't, its not there) it covers that data.
So, in order for this to be useful, you'd need some hard rules in the HIG and more make it feel like 'browsing' your desktop (or an app, like a calendar). A bit like iPhone allows you to browse through the several pages of apps installed. Except in this context its much more useful.
Peter@Maemo Marketing
10-11-2009, 03:48 AM
Personally, I don't think I'd like to use the canvas concept. It looks like it would be too easy to get lost, and it seems like a long way to scroll corner to corner.
4 screens seems pretty optimal to me, but I'm just one user. How much testing have you done on this?
Got it. Maybe, showing the UI illustration first with multiple homescreens filled with many widgets wasn't the easiest way to communicate the UI concept to developers. I posted the slides from the Friday morning presentation on slideshare. Take another look at the UI images, in particular the ones that show just one display view. You should see how simple and clean things can be.
http://www.slideshare.net/peterschneider/maemo-6-technology-highlights
is that a beholder in he games widget?
nilchak
10-12-2009, 11:55 AM
The canvas is exactly like what the drawing canvas on liqbase started out with - a larger are which is scrollable (of course in liqbase its only scrollable vertically).
Nice to see portable devices supporting such concepts.
And peter, thanks for that slide - very nice demonstrated what a canvas can be.
If canvas is comparable to down scrollable web page - why not, I can not say how it would feel. It is not far from the current concept with that kind of magnetic attraction/attachment - would be nice to have both. But if it is similar as X-windows virtual desktop - a peek hole scrolling in two dimensions - never liked, if was difficult to navigate.
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