Closing inactive internet connections

[zgold550]

Hi!

I have an issue with my new N900 (Thank you Nokia!) where I will start an application (or connect to a network) that requires the internet and connect to either WiFi or 3G. The app will work fine and eventually close in normal operation. I then have no applications open which are using the network. At this point I would expect that the network connection would automatically be turned off, yet it is not.

I am thinking of filing a bug for this but I first wanted to check here to see if anybody else had noticed a similar problem and may be able to point out something obvious that I am missing.

Thanks!
-Zach

[RevdKathy]

I understood it was supposed to do this, unlike other devices which only connect when necessary. Hence the discussion about switching to 2g when not in use, or wifi automatically.

Or am I being even dumber than usual?

[Hogwash]

Well, that isn't what happens on your PC....eth0 stays up regardless.

Perhaps it may be a battery-drain on the N900, but how significant? Is it worth saving the power if you have to wait for a network interface to reinitialize next time you fire up your browser?

[zgold550]

Perhaps it may be a battery-drain on the N900, but how significant? Is it worth saving the power if you have to wait for a network interface to reinitialize next time you fire up your browser?

Yes. It is well known that 3G/Wifi/etc. are very large drains on the battery. Every other smart phone I have used has disabled radios when not in use.

[Hogwash]

Sure they are, but they drain the battery at different rates depending on what they're doing. How much of a drain is it to have such wireless interfaces fall back to an 'idle' state?

Nokia's own mission is to have an 'always on' device that lasts you a whole day (by which I take it to mean a 'working day' - say 10 hours)

If I have an app that wakes up periodically and polls some network service, will the renegotiation etc involved with reinitializing the network interface each time, actually prove to be more troublesome?

I don't know the answers to these questions....I'm just curious :)

[zerojay]

Hi!

I have an issue with my new N900 (Thank you Nokia!) where I will start an application (or connect to a network) that requires the internet and connect to either WiFi or 3G. The app will work fine and eventually close in normal operation. I then have no applications open which are using the network. At this point I would expect that the network connection would automatically be turned off, yet it is not.

I am thinking of filing a bug for this but I first wanted to check here to see if anybody else had noticed a similar problem and may be able to point out something obvious that I am missing.

Thanks!
-Zach

This is standard use on the N900. As others previously have stated, this is meant to be an always on device, which means both power and internet connection. If you want it to disconnect your net connection, you'll have to do it manually.

Intended behavior.

[zgold550]

I disagree with the 'always on' arguement.


This is *not* an internet tablet anymore. Yes, it may have its heritage there but now its a phone. Why? Becayse that is who this device is competing against.

And if the N900 wants to compete it needs to last at least close to as long, battery wise, as its competition. Having ANY radios or ANY hardware on when its not used is a waste of battery, regardless of how large a waste.

Other devices that the N900 competes with go to great lengths to disable unused hardware to conserve battery and I believe the N900/Maemo should do the same.

[zerojay]

I disagree with the 'always on' arguement.


This is *not* an internet tablet anymore. Yes, it may have its heritage there but now its a phone. Why? Becayse that is who this device is competing against.

And if the N900 wants to compete it needs to last at least close to as long, battery wise, as its competition. Having ANY radios or ANY hardware on when its not used is a waste of battery, regardless of how large a waste.

Other devices that the N900 competes with go to great lengths to disable unused hardware to conserve battery and I believe the N900/Maemo should do the same.

It's not an argument. It's fact. The N900 is an always-on device. As someone that has an N900 in his hands typing this, it most certainly IS still an internet tablet with a phone attached to it. Nokia has worked long and hard to make sure that having it always on isn't that much of an impact on battery life and they did a good job of it.

Remember, the whole point of the thing is to bring you constant connectivity. How are you going to get those IMs if your radios are off?

Turning radios off makes sense on those old phones. This is a new type of device and a new way of doing things.

[zgold550]

I don't think the following marketing message would go over so well

"Try the new N900! It will get you your email and internet instantly because it is always on, but only in the morning. You'll have to switch to your old blackberry in the afternoon"

The vision you propose is very compelling zerojay. The only problem is our technology is not at a point where we can enable this. The battery simply will not last a full day with the radios on and hence the N900 still has to act like everybody else it is competing with and disable unused devices.


So, back to the original point in this thread. Is there a way to automatically disable radios or should I file a bug?

[Andrei]

Maybe you should file a "feature request" instead. I personally believe the device should behave as it is now. But maybe adding an option to disable the 3G radio would be useful. For instance, imagine the case where you're far away from any network (camping?) and you don't want the radio to stay on and keep looking for a carrier.

[zerojay]

The only problem is our technology is not at a point where we can enable this. The battery simply will not last a full day with the radios on and hence the N900 still has to act like everybody else it is competing with and disable unused devices.

Bull. I am doing it right now with the real hardware on a daily basis. It's the whole point of the device. Nokia said "our goal is to make it last a full day" and it does. Our technology is already at a point where we can enable this.

Go ahead and file the bug if you want. It'll just get closed as invalid anyways.

And you already can disable the 3G radio at will. It just doesn't do it automatically when your last open app is closed. Besides, there are other apps in the background still using it - e-mail, IM, phone, etc...

[Hogwash]

I don't think the following marketing message would go over so well

"Try the new N900! It will get you your email and internet instantly because it is always on, but only in the morning. You'll have to switch to your old blackberry in the afternoon"

No. It wouldn't go over well....which is why their message is radically different - they're saying that you can remain online all day.

What experiences have you had? How long does your battery last, and under what conditions (usage patterns)?

[pycage]

The battery simply will not last a full day with the radios on and hence the N900 still has to act like everybody else it is competing with and disable unused devices.


Oh yes, it easily survives the day with radios on. Definitely better than the fruity or green-robotic competition. :)

[zgold550]

At the summit my device lasted only until just after lunch with wifi on all morning. Granted though I was using the screen on a lot at the summit.

Now that I am at home my device had used almost half its battery by 3PM with "frequent" 2.5G/Wifi usage. Not abysmal, but it could be better.

[NvyUs]

At the summit my device lasted only until just after lunch with wifi on all morning. Granted though I was using the screen on a lot at the summit.

Now that I am at home my device had used almost half its battery by 3PM with "frequent" 2.5G/Wifi usage. Not abysmal, but it could be better.

remember pre-release software that could all change on the final shipping version

[zerojay]

At the summit my device lasted only until just after lunch with wifi on all morning. Granted though I was using the screen on a lot at the summit.

Now that I am at home my device had used almost half its battery by 3PM with "frequent" 2.5G/Wifi usage. Not abysmal, but it could be better.

There's a chance that wifi had to be set to a lower power saving mode. I know at home that I had to set it to intermediate power saving instead of maximum because of problems with the connection... even though my old tablets on maximum weren't an issue.

[Hogwash]

I think this merits a thread...

[ohwut]

I don't think the following marketing message would go over so well

"Try the new N900! It will get you your email and internet instantly because it is always on, but only in the morning. You'll have to switch to your old blackberry in the afternoon"

The vision you propose is very compelling zerojay. The only problem is our technology is not at a point where we can enable this. The battery simply will not last a full day with the radios on and hence the N900 still has to act like everybody else it is competing with and disable unused devices.


So, back to the original point in this thread. Is there a way to automatically disable radios or should I file a bug?

I must be missing something here. Last I checked on my Android MyTouch there's always a connection open. My BlackBerry Bold requires an active GSM or Wi-Fi connection for internet and Push services since they all go through BIS, Windows mobile 6.5 disables the data features until an application requests them, but the Radio is still on with an active connection on EVDO in this case. The only time I can think of any smart phones completely disabling the radios is when your BlackBerry gets below 5% battery.

I understand there are power saving features on these things but they're never completely disabled unless there is user input, or am I just confused, it sounded like if you weren't using the radio for something you want it completely disabled?

While I agree with the idea on some level...that would be a lot of calls to voicemail and late SMS messages.

[Liplap]

If you want it to disconnect your net connection, you'll have to do it manually.


I have an ARM SBC with GSM modem. I've set it up so that the pppd daemon is always on and ppp0 interface is there. Whenever there are ip packets to be sent the pppd daemon initiates the chat script and activates the GPRS connection. There is also timeout after which the pppd shuts down the connection. See pppd "demand" and "timeout" parameters.

j

[mece]

While I agree with the idea on some level...that would be a lot of calls to voicemail and late SMS messages.

Why are we talking about turning off radios?
The topic is internet connections.

People claim that an idle 3g data connection does not affect the battery that much, but with my phone (an old, worn N95-1) there is a big difference. If I only use the data connection when the phone is in my hand and not in my pocket, I will have 3-5 bars on my phone when I charge it at night around 23:30, and if I leave the data connection idling, the battery will be dead at around 19.

I tested this with nokia image exchange btw. It does nothing with the connection unless you take a photo, but still leaves it on all the time.

People say that N900 will last the whole day with normal use. Well I'd like it to last a whole day with periods of heavy use. And automagically turning off the data connection if it's not being used could help that.

[jethro.itt]

I have an ARM SBC with GSM modem. ... See pppd "demand" and "timeout" parameters.

I don't think zerojay meant that it is not techically possible, only that it makes no sense on an always-connected computer. Your SBC cannot accept unplanned SSH connections from the outside, for example.

[CVBruce]

Is there an Airline/Flight mode that will turn off the radios?

[zerojay]

Why are we talking about turning off radios?
The topic is internet connections.

People claim that an idle 3g data connection does not affect the battery that much, but with my phone (an old, worn N95-1) there is a big difference. If I only use the data connection when the phone is in my hand and not in my pocket, I will have 3-5 bars on my phone when I charge it at night around 23:30, and if I leave the data connection idling, the battery will be dead at around 19.

I tested this with nokia image exchange btw. It does nothing with the connection unless you take a photo, but still leaves it on all the time.

People say that N900 will last the whole day with normal use. Well I'd like it to last a whole day with periods of heavy use. And automagically turning off the data connection if it's not being used could help that.

I have the N95-1... and I can tell you that the battery on that thing was terrible and it was rare that I wasn't killing the battery in less than two hours of use, so it's a bad comparison in my opinion.

[mobiledivide]

I agree with zerojay on this one, the internet connection is meant to be on all the time, I fully intend to use my N900 as a fulltime messaging device. A compromise would be to have an option somewhere where you can dictate power savings such as turn off 3g connection at 20% battery life etc.

[pycage]

Is there an Airline/Flight mode that will turn off the radios?

Yes, there is one. It's simply called offline-mode as on the other NITs, too.

[RevdKathy]

Not having a n900 in my paws yet, this may be pie. But I had rather hoped to have a 'profile' for work, which would include "Phone on/internet off" to allow for the fact that i work in an internet dead spot. The '"home" profile would connect to my local wifi, while a "roam" profile would be searching for 3g.

My experience with other devices is that it's a straight draw over what uses battery between leaving the wifi on and using the screen. N900 is designed for you to do both.

I suspect my solution will be a spare battery. ;)

[pycage]

If you work in an internet dead-spot, then internet will automatically be off. And it only connects to WiFi networks that you allow it to connect automatically.
And I don't think that 3G on for phone drains more battery than 3G with internet on but without traffic. If you don't need 3G (and you don't need for phone calls) then you can disable it altogether.
That's what I did on the G1 because switching 3G off made a huge difference to battery life. But on the N900 I don't feel the need to force 2G anymore.

[joppu]

It works just as it's supposed to, when the connection is always on, you get the latest instant messages, widget updates and skype calls automatically. But the 3g radio consumes a lot battery power which is bad.

[RevdKathy]

If you work in an internet dead-spot, then internet will automatically be off.

Yes, but unless it's a lot cleverer than I expect, n900 won't know how long I'm going to stay there, so it will likely keep checking to see whether there's an internet signal yet. And that will likely be a bigger battery drain than staying connected, I fear.

[javispedro]

Yes, but unless it's a lot cleverer than I expect, n900 won't know how long I'm going to stay there, so it will likely keep checking to see whether there's an internet signal yet. And that will likely be a bigger battery drain than staying connected, I fear.

As usual, I hope you know that there are three already existing internet tablet models out there that are already doing that.

And fear not.