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View Full Version : Against the notion of "Step 4 of 5 is lacking!"


gjtorikian
11-13-2009, 08:43 PM
You may probably tell by my reg date and number of posts that I'm a new member to the entire Maemo 5 / N900 scene, and many hardened Nokia users will probably take what I say with a grain of salt. I obviously wasn't around during the OS2007 Hacker Editions and various other Nokia system incompatibilities, but I've read enough articles to satisfy me that what I'm going to say is reasonable.

There's been a lot of antagonism on these forums regarding Nokia's outright statement that Maemo 5 / N900 represents only "step 4" of their 5-step Plan to Success (tm). People have been downright hostile, insisting that they will skip this upcoming device in favor of Maemo 6 / N910 / whatever. While I certainly don't think the decision was brilliant, I would say that Nokia's admission for their business strategy is admirable, to say the least. How many users of the G1 really thought that Google's very first attempts into mobile phone technology would be flawless, uncompromising, an experience to last years? The device has a limited capacity to store essential data, and will likely be hell to get to the next Android flavor. The same goes for Apple--they got a lot of things wrong with their first-gen iPhone.

Now, the argument can be made that while Apple's earliest iPhone doesn't have the same functionality as the later two (due to hardware limitations), at least the OS across all phones is the same. That's true, and tough to argue against. Android phones across the board are running different OS versions, and I imagine a lot of non-Droid users are downright indignant at their "obsolete" equipment.

These two phones represent, in my mind, the mainstream spectrum of a closed system and a (seemingly) open one. Apple may lock everything down, but at least the experience overall is somewhat the same. Google is hands off on phone manufacturers, but they in turn are unable to devote the R&D time to play "catch-up." With the N900, at least the OS is open, AND dedicated to a single piece of equipment. That's huge. Whatever can be added on as a result (portrait mode, MMS, Harmattan) may not come from Nokia, but if it doesn't, it has a much stronger chance of coming from the user community. Apple and Google can't say that at all. Would you rather have a device that's frequently fixed, but never on your own terms? Would you rather have a device that needs to be replaced every year? Or would you rather have the power to augment and build on what you already have? Developers aren't magicians, but they're effing close. Money and time are important, but respect goes a long way too. I see a lot of that in this community, and that pleases me, so much so that I'm willing to drop a bunch of money on an experiment I believe in.

But back to the original point: step 4 of 5. I'll just wait it out. The N900 isn't ready yet. Why would I buy a phone that's going to be abandoned? I find this sentiment unreasonable. Any hardware that is purchased becomes obsolete quite quickly, and so people with this sort of "wait it out" mentality will always find themselves frustrated.

There was a company in the '80s that introduced their new computer model, at CES or some other trade show. During the presentation they announced that next year they would bring out a computer with even more memory, a faster processor, etc etc. Know what happened? No one bought the trade show computer because everyone waited for the next one. The company went bankrupt, and the next one never came. (I have exhausted my search abilities to get the name of the computer, but I'm pretty sure this is a true story. I don't think it was an Amiga/IBM/Commodore line.)

I think the comparison to Nokia here is apt. Again, I have no idea why they would admit that their next phone / system would have multitouch or other features omitted from the upcoming device. And I'm not saying we should respect their omissions. But at the very least users have the potential to supplement whatever is lacking in Maemo themselves. For some that might not be enough: fine. For some, multitouch is an essential feature, and they won't want to purchase a phone that lacks it, just like for others GSM is essential, and they won't buy a CDMA phone That's fine.

But I don't think it's a legitimate argument to say, I boycott this product because it is not as good as the next one. I think you'll eat yourself alive if you feel this strongly.

Thor
11-13-2009, 10:00 PM
Apple may lock everything down, but at least the experience overall is somewhat the same.

I wonder if they'll keep the 480x240 resolution forevermore?

Laughing Man
11-13-2009, 10:07 PM
I wonder if they'll keep the 480x240 resolution forevermore?

It shouldn't be a problem if they made it scalable. Apple does add features that the previous iPhone doesn't have (e.g. digital compass). It just takes developers a while to target the newer hardware since they want to maximize profit by hitting as many targets as possible (e.g. lowest common denominator in hardware).

As for obsolete, it depends on how the company supports their product. For example, I believe Google is still trying to get 2.0 on the G1. It may take advantage of all the benefits 2.0 can provide due to old hardware but you can still have the latest optimizations, fixes, whatever. On the hardware front there's nothing you can do, it's just the nature of technological advance. It's on the software front that matters.

Likewise we'll see how Nokia handles it. Or if it'll be one of those "fixed in fremantle" things but instead with "fixed in harmattan". Granted the choice of QT will allow applications to be cross-ported between Symbian, Maemo, and any device that runs QT.

gecebekcisi
11-13-2009, 10:14 PM
I liked the post a lot, it makes a lot of sense. I wrote a similar blog post (http://mobilbekcisi.uniturk.net/2009/10/n900maemo-5-ve-atlacak-5-admdan-4-adm.html) about a month ago with a name that could be translated as about being step 4 of 5, but my approach was more QT support and lack of compatibility breaks (http://www.umpcportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Capture_00073.jpg) centric to prove that N900 wasn't born dead. Very well done...

unkno
11-13-2009, 10:15 PM
Since step 5 will revolve around the introduction of Maemo6...I'm just hoping that it is possible to get it running on the N900

sjgadsby
11-13-2009, 11:34 PM
There was a company in the '80s that introduced their new computer model, at CES or some other trade show. During the presentation they announced that next year they would bring out a computer with even more memory, a faster processor, etc etc. Know what happened? No one bought the trade show computer because everyone waited for the next one. The company went bankrupt, and the next one never came. (I have exhausted my search abilities to get the name of the computer, but I'm pretty sure this is a true story.)

You're writing of the Osborne Effect, and it's something of a myth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect#The_Osborne_myth).

BatPenguin
11-14-2009, 12:39 AM
With the N900, at least the OS is open, AND dedicated to a single piece of equipment. That's huge. Whatever can be added on as a result (portrait mode, MMS, Harmattan) may not come from Nokia, but if it doesn't, it has a much stronger chance of coming from the user community.

As a new tablet/N900 user, I think you're perhaps not taking into account the experiences many of us have with these devices. We've clearly had a Maemo device before, and there's reasons why we're being more cautious now. Of course there's others , but I would say a big reason for many is that we've been using them for a year or two and know what to expect from Nokia and the community. I'd argue that for many of us, waiting is not only the logical choice but the one that might actually keep us Nokia customers in the future and not make us pull our hair out in frustration come next June. :)

For all the open-source goodness of these devices, with their stock operating systems, they're really still stuck in deep water if Nokia decides to abandon a particular piece of hardware. You list portrait mode and MMS, I don't think either one of these can be truly fixed by the community, Nokia will have to do it. (Anyway, moot point: Nokia has said they'll fix these, I think it's unlikely they won't). But still: the community cannot fix all types of problems - there's important closed-source stuff in them, things that only Nokia can fix. The N810 was abandoned well over a year ago by Nokia - there is still no other OS for it that we can use (Mer is not ready) so we are stuck with the shape of Diablo and its bugs they decided to leave us with, the "wontfixes". To simplify: the community is a nice source for software, but don't expect the community to fix the annoying bug that will close your email software if the message you're looking at is too long, etc. That sort of thing.

It's a valid fear that as the platform moves on to Maemo 6, we'll be stuck with whatever annoyances there are left in Maemo 5 without a way for the community to fix it. And this coudl happen sooner than what it did with the N810, we just don't know. So we wait.

bocaJ
11-14-2009, 01:50 AM
Honestly, I'm really happy to be getting step 4 out of 5 and think that everyone else is missing out. Here's an analogy:

The first generation of TiVos had automatic commercial detection functionality and on top of that, the remote had a great 30sec. skip button. Wanting to make nice with Hollywood, get certified for a cableCARD etc., future generations didn't have this, so while newer generations came out with bigger HDDs, multiple tuners, etc., this really cool function for skipping commercials was only there for early adopters.

So soon Maemo will be going mainstream with N910/Maemo 6 and it will have cool stuff like multi touch, maybe more memory/processor, Comes With Music[tm] and whatnot, but both the N900 and N910 will support QT4.6 for development, so Apps will generally be cross compatible (and apps are what really make a smartphone for mass market, imho), but the N910 will leave behind:

*A Physical Keyboard
*Pixel point accuracy via resistive touch
*GTK Support/ability to easily port over 800/810 apps
*A truly DRM free system (hey, it matters to me)
*The hacker/cutting edge feel that I get as a geek ordering the N900

I'm not knocking Maemo6 or the N910 - I'm sure I'll be drooling over them in 6 months or so, but I don't think I'll have a hard time defending my N900 to gadget enthusiasts either.

linuxeventually
11-14-2009, 02:26 AM
How about "against step 3 of 5 is lacking". People trying to shut down Diablo development and such, STFU.

mikec
11-14-2009, 02:46 AM
For me the issue is not one of commitment (though that is important), but "what does it say on the tin".

If they said the device was going to have MMS and it didn't, or portrait mode and it didn't then I have every right to be pissed. But I don't think they did and I I don't think they have said it would have the bazillion features that we gadget lovers are screaming for. In particular did Nokia ever promise that there would be newer OS support on older devices? If they did then you probably have every right to ask for you money back.

On the other hand there are some things that Nokia could maybe do better.

- Release code so that back-porting is available to the community
- Give more help to developers around loan devices
- Be firmer on roadmaps so that people understand the strategy
- Release earlier, and release more often
- Open Source even more than they currently have
- Work harder on their suppliers to release code

Mike C

admiral0
11-14-2009, 03:53 AM
Alternatives to maemo exist.
1. Mer
2. Debian
3. Archmobile
4. Other distros (?)

There are also some community efforts to create a Qt alternative to Hildon. For example the team i'm part of is doing this software http://gitorious.org/opendesk

Cheers

cb474
11-14-2009, 05:53 AM
To me it seems like it really just depends on who you are, where you're coming form, and what your needs are.

If you want the latest greatest coolest gadget, then yes, you could easily end up waiting forever and/or be disappointed by how quickly any device becomes obsolete. If the N900 serves your purposes best of the devices currently available and you need something to carry out functions you can't currently do on whatever device you have, then it's probably a good choice; that is, you shouldn't get the N900 to fill future needs, you should get it because it fills current ones. If you're a user of the N810 and other previous devices, as BatPenguin discusses, then maybe the N900 isn't enough of a leap forward to make it worthwhile.

Once thing I wonder in addtion is who's to say that Maemo 6 will really be the end point? Nokia isn't going to just stop developing. Might not there be a Maemo 7? 8? 9?

All that said, I think it is legitimate both to get the N900 now for what it is and to be concerned about whether a platform is really mature yet. From what I've read, Maemo 5 sounds pretty stable and not especially buggy. But still, the difference between versions isn't always just about the newest features, it can also be about reaching a level of maturity and usability. Hello Windows 2000/XP vs. everything that came before it.

cb474
11-14-2009, 06:02 AM
Alternatives to maemo exist.
1. Mer
2. Debian
3. Archmobile
4. Other distros (?)

There are also some community efforts to create a Qt alternative to Hildon. For example the team i'm part of is doing this software http://gitorious.org/opendesk

Cheers

I look forward to the day when you can just install a distro of choice on your phone, although I realize this may be a more complicated endeavor with mobile devices than with computers. But that aside, will any of these actually run on the N900 as the base OS itself (i.e. not in a window like Easy Debian)? And still give you all the features you would want, like the phone working, etc.? (By the way, I love Arch.)

admiral0
11-14-2009, 06:23 AM
Archmobile already runs on N810, but not all functionality is present. You can check success stories on our wiki. N900 as i saw is more open than n810 and that would allow even 3D acceleration (you'll have to download binary from nokia to make it work)

There are two awesome projects that we are following for phone functionality: FSO (Started by Openmoko) and Ofono (by Nokia and Intel). They are both good middleware for getting phone apps done easily. In fact UIs in both cases should only make dbus calls to make a phone call and receive dbus signals to receive calls.

Qt and Qt/embedded have support for dbus, so the job can be done easily.

MrGrim
11-14-2009, 10:40 AM
You're writing of the Osborne Effect, and it's something of a myth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect#The_Osborne_myth).

Maybe the origin is a myth, but the concept is extremely real. It's what microsoft used to kill off competitors like GEM in the early days, by announcing that in a few months they'll churn out something bigger, better and smoother. Which of course they didn't. This is called FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) and it sounds like a step-brother of this osbourne effect.
Naturally, nokia isn't going to use unfair (but unfortunately legal) competition tactics against itself unless they're utter *****s. Which they just might not be.