OS2008 upgradable to Maemo 5? Fremantle for 770, N800, N810?

[VulcanRidr]

I have been searching the web and have yet to find an answer, so I thought I would ask for a canonical answer here. Will Maemo5 and its cool new interface run on The N8x0 series devices? I have seen several talks expounding on the support for new hardware, 3g compatibility, and so forth, which implies to me that Nokia is supporting their yet-unseen new N9xx series. But a few implications, such as its scheduled release date of April, 2009 (this month) tells me that they *are* going to support at least some of the older hardware.

Can anyone who has played with the OS tell me? Is there a cool new updated UI in my future?

Thanks,
--vr

[SD69]

Maemo 5 will not run on N810. You will want to take a look at Mer.

[Lord Raiden]

Yeah, Mer is gonna fill in for Diablo as the primary OS in the future since little if anything will be done anymore for the current Maemo 4x tree.

[qgil]

I have been searching the web and have yet to find an answer, so I thought I would ask for a canonical answer here. Will Maemo5 and its cool new interface run on The N8x0 series devices?

Hi, canonical answers about Maemo 5 can be found in the Fremantle roadmap (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle) and related announcements at maemo.org (http://maemo.org/news/announcements/).

The answer to your question is here:

First Maemo 5 SDK release targeting platform developers (http://maemo.org/news/announcements/first_maemo_5_sdk_release_targeting_platform_devel opers/)

Maemo 5 comes today as an SDK only since it targets the OMAP3 architecture and no OMAP2 compatibility will be officially provided. The revamped UI relying on graphics acceleration and the new functionality built around the new supported hardware made it too complex to keep the compatibility between both architectures.

This early release comes with an invitation to build variants based on Maemo 5 compatible with existing hardware like the N800 and N810. Maemo SW can't promise commercial quality for such configurations but through maemo.org we are able to collaborate at a community level with technical support, license changes and code.

[bhang]

hey what the fu(k, I just got an n810, because they came down enuff that I didint have to sell any organs, and after a pretty good trackrecord of back-compat. is it that much different?
Meaning so different that a "port of sorts(full or otherwise)"(ie 08 for the n770)
Is the 810 wimax gonna have a cersion or not, that device is a bit new to drop support on it like its a hot potato with ebola

I was thought the 810 wimax just added the wimax and hence the lack of a model# you'd think that they would be very similar


but her I dont know nuthin, im no coder I can barely edit *nix scripts so Im just looking at the whole thing from the outside in (like most of the consumers)


when will these companies learn backwards compatibility, keeps customers happy, and dropping support pisses off the world and promotes piracy as people feel entitled to the software if the hardware they own is capable to run....

is this new release so different?

bhang

[bhang]

sounds like nokia thinks its possible, but they just want to focus on new products, I have an n800 and a brand new n810(that I shoulda read more about before ordering) and an n800 that I bought cause it seemed that nokia was doin sumthin innovative and I like gadgets, especially *nix gadgets.

I think they have decided leaving the gsm and 3g out was a mistake and now they want to forget the less connected bastard stepchildren...


about5-10 years ago didn't they tell us WIFI would cover the world for free and we would live in this connected utopia, well some cities have tried but you can almost never get a viable connect to them, unless your standing real close to the AP, so gsm/3g/hspda/wcdma is filling the whole left by the wifi pipe dream...

Now with the spectrum that TV will give us (if they ever get around to cut off analog) the FCC has decided to give us back the "peoples airwaves" and this will give bandwidth at a freq that penetrates structures much better than the cordless telephone freq our wifi AP run on...google it its a promising read.

bhang

how did that make 2 posts I thought I was editing my last post, sorry, im gonna just read till I get more java in me...

[daperl]

...and we would live in this connected utopia

Well, if your avatar is this connected utopia you speak of, count me in.

[kanishou]

Note that as the UI Overview (http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo5_alpha_overview/) states, only the framework is using an OpenGL context. Most if not all applications should run just fine on N810, as long as Mer provides an adequate non-accelerated framework.

[svs57]

Is it possible to compile libraries and applications for http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0beta/free/ and use its with diablo nokia binaries on n810?

[Andre Klapper]

Is it possible to compile libraries and applications for http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0beta/free/ and use its with diablo nokia binaries on n810?

As with every new version of platform libraries that breaks API I'd say "No, that's not easily doable", and as written the Mer project tries to do this.

[Andre Klapper]

when will these companies learn backwards compatibility, keeps customers happy, and dropping support pisses off the world and promotes piracy as people feel entitled to the software if the hardware they own is capable to run....

Backwards compatibility is nice, but sometimes you HAVE to break it because otherwise the required efforts are way too huge and make things unnecesarily complicated. Also see other software projects (KDE4? Windows Vista? Upcoming GTK3?).
I have no idea how you can come up with "piracy" here - 80% of the software is open-source anyway, and for the rest Nokia is willing to help the Mer project in getting things working.
And I don't remember Nokia having promised "Buy an N810 and get software updates for the next five years", so I wonder what such expectations are based on.

is this new release so different?
Yes, it is. People don't break API just because they are bored.

[benny1967]

And I don't remember Nokia having promised "Buy an N810 and get software updates for the next five years", so I wonder what such expectations are based on.

i believe there was a promise once (after the 770-fiasco) that tablets would be supported for at least 2 OS-releases each. i tried to search both google and talk for the exact source but was unable to find it (hard to find search terms that dont generate too much unrelated noise). still i'm pretty sure i remember this correctly as it was repeated several times with regard to N800-users (along the lines of: they'd benefit from N810-upgrades as the N810 would see 2 more OS releases which of course would run on the N800, too.)

also, iirc, the explanation for not keeping this promise was that they counted each diablo-SSU as an OS-release... well... :(

[pycage]

i believe there was a promise once (after the 770-fiasco) that tablets would be supported for at least 2 OS-releases each.

They held that promise:

N800: Bora, Chinook, Diablo
N810: Chinook, Diablo

Elephanta was dropped. That might also have been intended for the N8x0. :(

[GeneralAntilles]

also, iirc, the explanation for not keeping this promise was that they counted each diablo-SSU as an OS-release... well... :(

No, they counted Diablo as a major release, so the N810 got "two": Chinook and Diablo. I believe that this claim only came from one Nokian giving a Fremantle talk at the Summit, though. Most everybody else has admitted that it's a weak deal.

[benny1967]

They held that promise:

N800: Bora, Chinook, Diablo
N810: Chinook, Diablo

Elephanta was dropped. That might also have been intended for the N8x0. :(
even though it's no use to further discuss this now (except with the responsible nokians):
from a consumer's POV, you'd have to count

N800: initial OS2007 + 2 = OS2007, OS2008, Maemo5
N810: initial OS2008 +2 = OS2008, Maemo5, Maemo6

You count based on the official marketing names that are made for communication towards the end user (OS2008), not based on internal codenames or dot-releases (Chinook, Diablo) you wouldn't expect end users to know about.


OTOH, there's some evidence that they had plans to keep this promise when it was made. - even more, i have to admit that maemo-nokians are treating me waaay better than their S60-counterparts. My S60 phone has unbelievable bugs and the one and only (and most probably last) firmware update it ever received didn't fix any of them, nor did it introduce new features. i also have no way to submit and track bugs, get feedback etc.... they're just zombie-esque in the S60 offices.
while part of this zombie tradition might still burden the maemo development, they got rid of most of it and seem pretty much alive and human.

[GeneralAntilles]

N800: initial OS2007 + 2 = OS2007, OS2008, Maemo5
N810: initial OS2008 +2 = OS2008, Maemo5, Maemo6


(I'm really tired of responding to these posts and forgetting I'm on ignore.)

It was for two rounds of support. Not the initial release plus two more, but just two rounds. Meaning the N800 got its "promised" support (I can't actually source where this "promise" may have come from, so it's really not much of one), and the N810 only missed one round.

[krisse]

AFAIK Nokia never promised anyone any OS upgrades. The upgrades they've issued have been entirely voluntary. (Note that an OS upgrade is a different thing to a firmware upgrade.)


My S60 phone has unbelievable bugs and the one and only (and most probably last) firmware update it ever received didn't fix any of them, nor did it introduce new features. i also have no way to submit and track bugs, get feedback etc.... they're just zombie-esque in the S60 offices.

You're being a bit unfair. Which S60 device do you have? They all use totally different firmware versions, and even the same device may have different firmware in different regions.

S60 firmware updates are very device-specific, and if you have a popular device (for example the N95) you will probably get several firmware updates every year.

My Nokia 5800 has had four firmware versions since it launched, that's about one update a month. That's a far higher update rate than the tablets have received, probably helped by the 5800's sales being on a par with the iPhone's.

But some phones don't sell well at all, and if no one buys them then there isn't much incentive for the manufacturer to issue a firmware update.

No manufacturer ever promises any firmware updates. I know people claim they do, but when you ask for some proof of this claim they never provide any.


hey what the fu(k, I just got an n810, because they came down enuff that I didint have to sell any organs

The reason the price has come down so much is precisely because the N810 hardware is so old and they want to get rid of old stock before the new Maemo device goes on sale.

The N810 now costs about half of what it did at launch, that only happens when a device is on the way out.


when will these companies learn backwards compatibility, keeps customers happy, and dropping support pisses off the world and promotes piracy as people feel entitled to the software if the hardware they own is capable to run....


It's not a compatibility problem, it's a hardware problem. Maemo 5 has been built around much faster hardware than the N810.

The N810 uses the same computing hardware as the N800, which was released almost two and a half years ago. It's quite old hardware.

Hopefully Mer will give the N810 and N800 something, but it isn't going to be as good as Maemo 5 because Maemo 5 requires better computing hardware than the N810 can offer.

[benny1967]

AFAIK Nokia never promised anyone any OS upgrades.

As I said, I'm pretty sure they did. See above.

You're being a bit unfair. Which S60 device do you have?

I'm not unfair; not this time. ;)

I'm not denying that there are valid reasons for not updating the firmware. On the contrary, I was pointing out that in spite of all my ranting here, I do realize (sometimes) how lucky I am to get quite a lot of bugfixes on a niche product like the N8x0, while my much more mainstream phone (a 6110 Navigator) suffers negligence. (Actually, what I appreciate even more is that I can come to this place or the bugzilla and have Nokians talk to me about what they'll do and what not. There's no place I can go and write: "Hey, there's a flash in my 6110 Navigator, but I cannot use it because all pictures taken with flash are blue.", then get a ticket number for it and watch how it's being dealt with while others vote for it or add comments...)

[qgil]

As I said, I'm pretty sure they did. See above.

I'm certain no Nokia representative could promise 2 or any updates.

One reference is http://www.slideshare.net/qgil/nokia-and-maemo-in-the-new-gnome-mobile-context (slide 28)

From Diablo onwards we aim to keep backward compatibility in justified API breaks to grant platform stability.

That was in June 2007. One lesson learned for many of us is that we are not living good years for claiming stability in native environments of mobile devices.

Also, what is an update? For you those "dot" maintenance updates don't seem to count yet they are real maintenance releases and they give us some extra work.

[benny1967]

I'm certain no Nokia representative could promise 2 or any updates. .

Maybe it was a forum legend then. I'm really surprised that nobody else remembers it... Well, not having the source at hand (and no, the slide you're referring to isn't what I mean here) I'm pretty lost, right? ;)

[VDVsx]

while my much more mainstream phone (a 6110 Navigator) suffers negligence. (Actually, what I appreciate even more is that I can come to this place or the bugzilla and have Nokians talk to me about what they'll do and what not. There's no place I can go and write: "Hey, there's a flash in my 6110 Navigator, but I cannot use it because all pictures taken with flash are blue.", then get a ticket number for it and watch how it's being dealt with while others vote for it or add comments...)

You probably have a defective unit, my 6110 takes reasonable 2 MP pictures with flash, of course you can't expect very high quality pictures at night(it's a phone camera) :p

[benny1967]

@VDVsx: I've seen other users complaining about this bug in various forums, so I'm pretty sure it's not just my unit. (In fact, you can use the flash if you set the white balance manually and choose "sunny". You'll get good quality pictures then. It's just that I'd expect the phone to choose this setting automatically when the flash is activated...)

[VDVsx]

@VDVsx: I've seen other users complaining about this bug in various forums, so I'm pretty sure it's not just my unit. (In fact, you can use the flash if you set the white balance manually and choose "sunny". You'll get good quality pictures then. It's just that I'd expect the phone to choose this setting automatically when the flash is activated...)

So should be some branch of phones with that problem, I never touched the 'balance' setting in my phone and always use auto-flash (day and night).

[Jaffa]

Maybe it was a forum legend then. I'm really surprised that nobody else remembers it... Well, not having the source at hand (and no, the slide you're referring to isn't what I mean here) I'm pretty lost, right? ;)

I remember it, and there was certainly surprise at the summit that "2 [major] releases for N810" included diablo. I remember the gasp & murmur quite significantly.

Of course, it's 2am - I've driven 7 hours straight today - and I ain't going looking for no source ;-)

[timsamoff]

...surprise at the summit that "2 [major] releases for N810" included diablo...
I remember too. In fact, there was a pretty pointed question about it during one of the discussions. Sources to this would be difficult, I think. ;)

Tim

[thp]

I think you just want someone to tell you that Maemo 5 will run on N8x0 devices (http://khan.thpinfo.com/~thp/tmp/frmntl/), right?

[lardman]

Interesting, is that a Nokia leak or running using SW OGL?

[X-Fade]

vnc -> sdk ;)

[qgil]

I remember it

I remember too

So who said what and when?

PS: thp excellent and funny!

[ColdFusion]

I remember it, and there was certainly surprise at the summit that "2 [major] releases for N810" included diablo. I remember the gasp & murmur quite significantly.

Of course, it's 2am - I've driven 7 hours straight today - and I ain't going looking for no source ;-)

Well it was planned diablo and elephanta to run on the n8*0s, as far as i can remember. But they skipped elephanta, so... You may count the SSUs as "some" upgrades i guess. :)

[Baloo]

I think you just want someone to tell you that Maemo 5 will run on N8x0 devices (http://khan.thpinfo.com/~thp/tmp/frmntl/), right?

Wow :D

Incidentally it seems you can't have a message reply under 10 characters here. Mmmm, no one word answers then.

[timsamoff]

So who said what and when?

I forget who. It was at the Summit. The two-OS comment was made (maybe by Peter or Ari? Or someone, so don't quote me) and the crowd gasped and then someone asked a question about whether or not Maemo SW was serious about that. Wish my memory was better! :p

Tim

[Baloo]

I forget who. It was at the Summit. The two-OS comment was made (maybe by Peter or Ari? Or someone, so don't quote me) and the crowd gasped and then someone asked a question about whether or not Maemo SW was serious about that. Wish my memory was better! :p

Tim

From memory I think it was Peter. I remember the conversation went along the lines of "I know we said two OS releases but as the next device is so far advanced of what we have now, its just not possible. If we can get it working then great but its not a focus point and maybe the community can do some back porting but if they do, the experience isn't going to be anything like the new device". This was a conversation at the booth at OSiM.

[timsamoff]

Ah, ok... Makes more sense now. :)

Tim

[Jaffa]

From memory I think it was Peter. I remember the conversation went along the lines of "I know we said two OS releases but as the next device is so far advanced of what we have now, its just not possible. If we can get it working then great but its not a focus point and maybe the community can do some back porting but if they do, the experience isn't going to be anything like the new device". This was a conversation at the booth at OSiM.

I think there was also a quote from Marcel(?) during the desktop session at the summit where the statement was made that two OSes included diablo (obviously contradictory information with the above).

In fact, I'm sure I typed it into #maemo the moment it was said so the IRC logs should give us an exact date & time :-)

[benny1967]

The original statement (saying that each device would enjoy at least two major OS releases) must have been made before October 2007; when I first wrote about it and looked for sources, a post here from Oct. 2007 was the oldest reference to it I could find. (I'm not gonna search that one again now... ;) ...)

Which, of course, makes the whole thing somewhat pointless. I cannot on the one side complain that our current hardware is soooo dated because it's from 2007 (looong ago) and then expect them to still do exactly as they thought they could back then (because hey, 2007 was only yesterday, wasn't it :D ).

[LABAUDIO]

just nooby user for said if performance about hardware upgrade and performances in the serie is very liched by animated ui and iphone zoomy copy api-bibi-...maemo4.9.9.9 is not here...

i probably put a same base of maemo4.9 + ++ on the new hardware n900 just for push maemo4.9 just so fast and CONSOLIDATED...

cause like i see here...all new really hardwares+ performance be oriented in profit of the new ui-animated...timer load all around...iam afraid to got a slowly reactyvity in the usefull use in the preview of maemo5

the best dream for me can be the maemo 4.9.9-9 on my new n900 or rover or whatever+ the new gsm and hardware improve annonced but on the N810.

maemo4 can be better improve and be more powerfull on the new n900 hardware...bryded then maemo5 for a lot of application...

Iam hurry to make a test speed in copycat application on both device for shure...

[bhang]

well, I could careless about whether or not the 810 got its 2 releases or not, Im just saying I have a great device with very capable hardware, even if it is a bit old and slow, this is where *nix shines, making the most of hardware, not HOGGING resources like it was coded in redmond, wa. if you ask me NONE of the maemo releases were ever 100%, there is still no PIM support (thats worth a damn anyway, gpe & ermig sp? just barely cut it)
all the releases were buggy and quick to slow down, I have an sd card freshly formatted to fat32 my n800 uses it just fine while the 810 says its damaged or unformatted, the video player was always choppy even with NOTHING else running.... the whole fiasco leaves a bad taste in my mouth and anybody who says the n8x devices were treated fairly, is either a complete lemming, a nokia employee, gen antillies or they have more money than sense.

I paid like 350 for the 2 tablets 1 n800, n810 and now the support has been dropped, im friggin livid, I can only hope that mer will see a fully functional nit OS, cause IMOP NOKIA never achieved that.

if the new series is so great, then they should continue the maemo 4 line, my palm 3x had support for like 5 years or so, nokia dropped the ball on this, but the community (- the lemmings) should pick it up, I have mer dual booting on my n810, I just cant seem to get anything from the repos listed in the app mgr, so I guess its time to give up on nokia doing the right thing and move on to MER.

I'm gonna ditch this taco stand...

BTW,

If they think anybody burned by nokia on these NITs will ever buy another nokia device they are as crazy as they are disloyal, I would have never bought one of them if I knew they would only support it for a year or 2, if its that disposable why not just make it from cardboard?????

still very angry,

BhanG

:mad:nokiasuxnokiasuxnokiasuxnokiasuxnokiasuxfunok iaUbastards:mad:

[JayOnThaBeat]

who you callin' a lemming? ;)

[javispedro]

my palm 3x had support for like 5 years or so
hey, my Palm m130 had 0 days of support and my Palm T|X had nearly 1 month (they released a Wi-Fi BUGFIX update... for $5).
Anything is better than the "old Palm" for me.

I do know the "really old Palm" provided paid OS upgrades... but the changelog between 1.0 and 4.1 hardly fills an A4 sheet.

[jperez2009]

I just saw the part about dropping samba support. Ouch. So connecting to a Windows folder will be out of the question then or will there be a different protocol used?

Jesse~

[eluis]

Hi,

Will Nokia N800 be compatible with Maemo 5?
Or is N800 stucked with OS2008 forever?

Thanks,
Eduardo Luís

[Bundyo]

This is about 5th time this question is asked (or maybe more? :)

[krisse]

Hi,

Will Nokia N800 be compatible with Maemo 5?
Or is N800 stucked with OS2008 forever?

Thanks,
Eduardo Luís

Well, OS2008 wouldn't be too bad considering the N800 shipped with OS2007...

[Den in USA]

Hi,

Will Nokia N800 be compatible with Maemo 5?
Or is N800 stucked with OS2008 forever?

Thanks,
Eduardo Luís

In the near future you can install Mer on you N800 to keep it compatible.

[eluis]

krisse, OS2008 is good enough. But, like almost every new OS releases, things get more usefull, better products, faster apps....

[nwerneck]

The usual answer is that Mer is the way for the current OS2008 users. But to this day I still haven't understand exactly if we will be able to easily install or at least port Fremantle packages to Mer or not... Will they have a similar UI, for example? Or is it more of an independent distribution?...

[krisse]

krisse, OS2008 is good enough. But, like almost every new OS releases, things get more usefull, better products, faster apps....

Oh I know, I just meant it was already pretty good that it got one version update. :-)

To give a serious answer, I think Nokia said the Maemo 5 specifications require a certain level of hardware which the N800 and N810 don't have, so there couldn't be a full release of M5 on the N800 or N810.

[Bundyo]

Oh I know, I just meant it was already pretty good that it got one version update. :-)

To give a serious answer, I think Nokia said the Maemo 5 specifications require a certain level of hardware which the N800 and N810 don't have, so there couldn't be a full release of M5 on the N800 or N810.

Unless Nokia releases a 3D driver which will probably help... I wonder though if that will happen soon with the new device coming out and all. If you can run Maemo 5 on N8x0, will you buy the new device?

[eluis]

Yes Krisse, I was suspecting that. Lack of hardware to support this new Maemo 5.
I just gave up using N800 because it was to slow. And, for me, the biggest flaw: A decent RSS reader. I'm still using my Qtek S200 with pRSSreader, the best RSS reader ever known.

[charcaroth]

So, if I'm reading correctly, the official stance is that the N800 will NOT support Maemo 5 due to a lack of appropriate hardware.

That's a shame, I'd like to keep using my N800 instead of having it outmoded when it's still in the prime of life. I for one would certainly purchase the N900 if it's available on my local cellular provider (Verizon Wireless), even if my N800 would run Maemo 5. The N900 includes what I was baffled that the N800 did not include, a cell phone. I just hope it'll be available by the end of the year.

[Texrat]

This is about 500th time this question is asked (or maybe more? :)

Fixed. You're welcome.

[krisse]

So, if I'm reading correctly, the official stance is that the N800 will NOT support Maemo 5 due to a lack of appropriate hardware.

I wouldn't call it an official stance so much as a physical reality. If Maemo 5 doesn't run properly on N800 hardware then there's no point releasing it on the N800.


That's a shame, I'd like to keep using my N800 instead of having it outmoded when it's still in the prime of life.

It was released over two and a half years ago... that's pretty long in mobile device terms.

And you can keep on using it, it's not like it'll explode... ;-)

[Texrat]

So, if I'm reading correctly, the official stance is that the N800 will NOT support Maemo 5 due to a lack of appropriate hardware.

That's a shame, I'd like to keep using my N800 instead of having it outmoded when it's still in the prime of life.

Define 'outmoded'.

[luca]

And you can keep on using it, it's not like it'll explode... ;-)

Well.... (http://www.google.com/search?q=nokia+batteries+exploding) :p

[krisse]

Well.... (http://www.google.com/search?q=nokia+batteries+exploding) :p

At least Nokia does proper recalls and doesn't try to hush people up (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8223005.stm)... :eek:

[qole]

Has an N800 ever exploded?

[YoDude]

Has an N800 ever exploded?
Well, you didn't hear about mine exploding did you?... That's because Nokia paid me not to tell you. :)

Dang it... I guess I'm gonna have to give them back there money now. :o

***

Back to diablo devices... I believe there is a lot of life left in them and @ $100-150 USD for a used N800 or $150-200 USD for a used N810, they are quite the bargain.
Just using MaemoMapper with the Google traffic layer running, an OMWeather 5 day forecast showing on your home screen, access to your e-mail, one touch access to news, Doppler radar, and various mobile portals and web pages via Personal Menu/Launcher through the cellular data connection of your choice... all displayed on a hi-res 4.1" screen puts it miles ahead of anything offered at that price.

Unfortunately there was a method to Nokia's madness. Not a whole lot of them have been produced and the leading edge of the developer community will move on to the newer devices and OS.
This will leave these geeky devices a small loyal following of even geekier fans that most of us (even the cutting edge) will, with pride, somehow always relate to.

Development may slow or stop but I predict years from now people will continue to find new uses for them. :)





25 April, 2018. Wolverhampton, England- Retired pensioner makes contact with beings from Planet 9 by way of the 8th dimension using a network of abandoned Commodore 64 and Sinclair Zed 80's all managed by a Nokia N800 and a bit of tin foil...


:p

[lardman]

So, if I'm reading correctly, the official stance is that the N800 will NOT support Maemo 5 due to a lack of appropriate hardware.

That's a shame, I'd like to keep using my N800 instead of having it outmoded when it's still in the prime of life.

That is the official stance, however Nokia have been very helpful to and cooperative with the Mer project, which is producing a community developed and driven direction for continued use of these, now commercially out-dated, devices.

[allnameswereout]

So, if I'm reading correctly, the official stance is that the N800 will NOT support Maemo 5 due to a lack of appropriate hardware.

That's a shame, I'd like to keep using my N800 instead of having it outmoded when it's still in the prime of life. I for one would certainly purchase the N900 if it's available on my local cellular provider (Verizon Wireless), even if my N800 would run Maemo 5. The N900 includes what I was baffled that the N800 did not include, a cell phone. I just hope it'll be available by the end of the year.Next time you buy a device ask for a support contract ;)

N800 is EOL. No more official support. Maemo 4.1 (Diablo) received security and reliability fixes via SSU, and thats it. If you look at it, the N800 had a longer lifetime than the N810.

Whatever community does (Mer) and how Nokia endorses Mer (by lobbying for OSS drivers) is the best straw you can get.

The issue is not really only appropriate hardware, its also lack of drivers. These drivers are out of Nokia's direct control.

Also, the question is ofcourse how the performance of Maemo 5 on N8x0 would be.

[ferjant]

im back after abandoning my N800 for years, lol. i just saw the N900 clip on youtube and was ecstatic about it. too bad N800 users cant upgrade with Maemo 5. i cant afford the N900, sucks!

[Peet]

Unless Nokia releases a 3D driver which will probably help... I wonder though if that will happen soon with the new device coming out and all. If you can run Maemo 5 on N8x0, will you buy the new device?

What would appeal to me and probably many developer types too would be if Nokia kept doing whatever it can to help the EOL'ed devices finally reach their true potential through Mer and backports of the main apps and tools.

That IMO would help sell the Maemo platform and differentiate Nokia as a responsible stakeholder in this larger community thing.

(So when the new N900 is EOL'ed in a year or so, its user community could likewise expect some level of continuity - akin to Ubuntu's Long Term Support releases)

[hyartep]

for me, the biggest flaw: A decent RSS reader

i use tear with google reader and it's ok.

[gokuman56]

Is is possible if the nokia n810 can have a maemo 5 hackers edition?

[VDVsx]

Is is possible if the nokia n810 can have a maemo 5 hackers edition?

Yes, Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer).

There are several discussions[1] about this in this forums, a quick search should show some of them.

[1] - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31022

[Andre Klapper]

gokuman56, for future reference please use the search function in this forum. Thanks.

[zman]

If yes, when will it be officially released?

[sjgadsby]

No, it will not. Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer) is the upgrade path for existing tablets.

[saruji]

well, I could careless about whether or not the 810 got its 2 releases or not, Im just saying I have a great device with very capable hardware, even if it is a bit old and slow, this is where *nix shines, making the most of hardware, not HOGGING resources like it was coded in redmond, wa. if you ask me NONE of the maemo releases were ever 100%, there is still no PIM support (thats worth a damn anyway, gpe & ermig sp? just barely cut it)
all the releases were buggy and quick to slow down, I have an sd card freshly formatted to fat32 my n800 uses it just fine while the 810 says its damaged or unformatted, the video player was always choppy even with NOTHING else running.... the whole fiasco leaves a bad taste in my mouth and anybody who says the n8x devices were treated fairly, is either a complete lemming, a nokia employee, gen antillies or they have more money than sense.

I paid like 350 for the 2 tablets 1 n800, n810 and now the support has been dropped, im friggin livid, I can only hope that mer will see a fully functional nit OS, cause IMOP NOKIA never achieved that.

if the new series is so great, then they should continue the maemo 4 line, my palm 3x had support for like 5 years or so, nokia dropped the ball on this, but the community (- the lemmings) should pick it up, I have mer dual booting on my n810, I just cant seem to get anything from the repos listed in the app mgr, so I guess its time to give up on nokia doing the right thing and move on to MER.

I'm gonna ditch this taco stand...

BTW,

If they think anybody burned by nokia on these NITs will ever buy another nokia device they are as crazy as they are disloyal, I would have never bought one of them if I knew they would only support it for a year or 2, if its that disposable why not just make it from cardboard?????

still very angry,

BhanG

:mad:nokiasuxnokiasuxnokiasuxnokiasuxnokiasuxfunok iaUbastards:mad:

Absolutely right! I bought my n810 brand new just last October as the n810 wimax became available as a *new* release NIT. I dont know about you, but i'm not buying Nokia staying true to Open Source or its community, once N900 or its successor become a hit in the market we will see all sorts of crippling actions from Nokia, ignoring the whole idea behind open source or free software. Its a hit it and leave it strategy, use their "niche" customer base as building blocks for a future top product, dump them with the bill of outdated hardware and dropped support, then say "thank you very much, hope you enjoyed getting screwed, now if you'll excuse me, I've got some money to make."

[javispedro]

"thank you very much, hope you enjoyed getting screwed, now if you'll excuse me, I've got some money to make."
That's any corporation's motto.

Now, on the other side, I'm happy to see that very bright people are on nokia's payroll, and also thankful for each OSS' package whose bugs (bugs that would get classified as low priority by any sane company) I can fix myself, which makes _my_ N810 a top quality product, at least for me.

[nhanquy]

I searched and found this thread.
It's too bad Nokia won't spend a little time to support the N810!

If people can port KDE, Mer, ... to the N810 and Nokia has found it was hard or no resources to port Maemo 5 then real shame on Nokia.

My 2c !

[GeneralAntilles]

I searched and found this thread.
It's too bad Nokia won't spend a little time to support the N810!


Actually, they've spent quite a bit of both time and money to support Maemo 5 on previous tablets. Where have these efforts gone? Into supporting Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer).


My 2c !

Aren't worth much if you don't have all of the facts. :)

[nhanquy]

Of course I don't have all the facts. But my common sense would say that Nokia has tried to avoid its responsibility to support the N810 by using Mer as a community support OS and not by Nokia.
Of course hardware configurations are different between the N900 and N800; but they were also between the N810 and N800. It was made by a marketing/profitable decision rather than technical one, I think.

My other 2c!

[Tintin]

Actually, they've spent quite a bit of both time and money to support Maemo 5 on previous tablets. Where have these efforts gone? Into supporting Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer).



Aren't work much if you don't have all of the facts. :)

I'm naturally curious when I read things like 'quite a bit of both time and money'.

I'm pro-Mer and am looking forward to seeing what it will mature into. But my understanding was that the monetary support for Mer was;
- creating a p/t position for one person whose responsibilities is not focused on Mer,
- ?

Since you have a lot more insight into what Nokia's support includes I'd be interested if you could outline them. It intrgues me how a corporation would accomplish this and, in a way, how much they consider it's worth to spend on such an undertaking.

And even though 'time is money' I'm less interested in how potentially helpful Nokia has been in answering questions, etc - I'd consider that to roll up under customer support - unless, of course any f/t employee's salary who is a dedicated resource to this undertaking.
Thanks.

[GeneralAntilles]

Of course I don't have all the facts. But my common sense would say that Nokia has tried to avoid its responsibility to support the N810 by using Mer as a community support OS and not by Nokia.


Unfortunately, again, this common sense doesn't have much to do with reality. :)


Of course hardware configurations are different between the N900 and N800; but they were also between the N810 and N800. It was made by a marketing/profitable decision rather than technical one, I think.


The N800 and N810 are basically the same piece of hardware at their core. For all practical purposes, there are no differences between them. Supporting the N800 basically came free when you supported the N810.

The differences between the N8x0 line and the N900, however, are more extreme than even those between the N800 and the 770.


My other 2c!

Again, still not worth much. Facts are available in abundance here, so gut feelings aren't particularly useful. :)

[GeneralAntilles]

- creating a p/t position for one person whose responsibilities is not focused on Mer,


Don't forget the long-view, the distmaster's job will make Mer easier to support (as it will hopefully reduce the number of idiosyncrasies that need working around) and, potentially, eventually eliminate the need for Mer as a separate distribution altogether.


Since you have a lot more insight into what Nokia's support includes I'd be interested if you could outline them. It intrgues me how a corporation would accomplish this and, in a way, how much they consider it's worth to spend on such an undertaking.


To outline a few of the endeavors Nokia has undertaken to support both Mer and existing device owners:


Open sourcing the N8x0 WiFi drivers. Nokia worked with ST-NXP to get them to release the specs (http://wireless.kernel.org/en/developers/Documentation/specs?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=STSW45x0C_LMAC_API_ED1P4.pdf) for the STLC4550 and STLC4560 found in the N800 and N810. They also have a full-time developer working on developing the open source drivers.
Open sourcing certain Nokia-owned proprietary components. Nokia has open sourced some of their in-house proprietary software for use in Mer.
Relicensing existing Nokia-owned proprietary components for redistribution. Those components that haven't been opened have been relicensed so they can be redistributed.
Working with TI and ImagTech to get PowerVR drivers released for the OMAP2. At the Summit, TI announced that that would be releasing PowerVR MBX drivers for the OMAP2 which will allow us to run Hildon Desktop from Maemo 5 on N8x0 devices.
Sponsoring Mer developers to the Mozilla Maemo Danish Weekend. Nokia sponsored several Mer developers (some from overseas) to the Danish hackfest.
Sponsoring Mer developers to the Maemo Summit. Nokia also sponsored most of the Mer developers to the Maemo Summit.


These are just some of the specific instances I can come up with from memory, there are others and this doesn't cover more generic stuff like infrastructure and development support. Nokia has definitely gotten behind Mer and it definitely wouldn't be where it is today without their efforts.

[GeneralAntilles]

OK, one more piece of spam.

Nokia had a number of options to get Maemo 5 on older devices:

Provide a one-off unofficial hacker edition

Much like it did for the 770, this gives existing users access to (most) of the new software at the expense of continued support past one or two releases and stability. While it would provide an easy way to get Maemo 5 on your N8x0, it's essentially money down the drain after just a few updates of the officially supported platform. It does not help get older hardware supported in new kernels, it does not provide many updated core libraries for old devices and it does not provide longterm support. It is good press, however.

Provide an officially supported Maemo 5

This is what most people are clamoring for without understanding all of the issues involved. On the surface, this sounds like an appealing solution. Current owners get the new hotness, everybody's happy, right? Unfortunately it's not that simple.

Providing an officially supported backport (unlike an unofficial hacker edition) brings with it a whole slew of QA requirements that increase costs by several orders of magnitude. This presents a problem for Maemo Devices, because the Maemo platform is only just coming into its own as a part of Nokia's core portfolio and they simply do have the personell or the money to support an official backport (especially at a crucial time like this that will make or break the platform).

An official backport is simply too expensive to be an option.

Support a community project

This is the option that really shines, even though most people wont understand why. Supporting a project like Mer has the highest return on investment. You get long-term support for your existing hardware, you get (most) of your new software on old hardware and you get a sane distribution that may provide a model to keep your platform viable in the long term (even though Nokia may not realize this one yet ;)). Mer ends up benefitting the whole of the open source community and not just your device owners.

So, given that there's a limited amount of both money and personell to put towards fixing this problem and given that providing official support likely excedes the limits of both, you're left picking between a on-off hacker edition and a community-supported backport that may be able to provide support for your existing users for a much longer period of time, which would you choose?

[heavyt]

GeneralAntilles, are there plans to support the wimax version of N810? I can't seem to find any information about Mer running on the N810-WiMax. Thanks for any info you can provide.

[abubakar]

Of course I don't have all the facts. But my common sense would say that Nokia has tried to avoid its responsibility to support the N810 by using Mer as a community support OS and not by Nokia.
Of course hardware configurations are different between the N900 and N800; but they were also between the N810 and N800. It was made by a marketing/profitable decision rather than technical one, I think.

My other 2c!

the ending of support seems bad indeed, but isnt it a really gud thing to put things in the hands of the community? The linux kernel is developed that way.

[Stskeeps]

GeneralAntilles, are there plans to support the wimax version of N810? I can't seem to find any information about Mer running on the N810-WiMax. Thanks for any info you can provide.

We added support either in 0.16 or beginning of 0.17 development. Not sure about WiMAX connectivity however.

[RobMtl007]

Greetings:

I have a Nokia N800 with 2008 OS firmware.

I haven't recieved an update to upgrade to Maemo 5.

Is it possible to upgrade to a Maemo 5 OS firmware?

Is there a link for this firmware upgrade?

Regards Robert

[konttori]

no it's not possible to upgrade to maemo 5

[Den in USA]

Greetings:

I have a Nokia N800 with 2008 OS firmware.

I haven't recieved an update to upgrade to Maemo 5.

Is it possible to upgrade to a Maemo 5 OS firmware?

Is there a link for this firmware upgrade?

Regards Robert

No, however, there is a project called "Mer" which will likely be our next upgrade.

[Andre Klapper]

For future reference please search the archives before posting.
This has been covered a dozen of times. :-)

[sjgadsby]

This has been covered a dozen of times.

Duplicate threads, merge to form Devastator!

Err, sorry. I meant to say, I've just merged a mess of duplicate threads into this one, and I've updated the title to make finding it easier, I hope.

Thanks go to pelago for tracking down all the clones.

[DanielT]

when will these companies learn backwards compatibility, keeps customers happy,

bhang

when? the day that comes when helping you retain a product you already paid for and gain newer functionality from it could possibly be more profitable than forcing you to buy a new one. do the gradeschool math involved and you will realize that day will never come. sorry buddy... fact of life, never gonna change.

so... hack away, its your best option.

[DaveP1]

when? the day that comes when helping you retain a product you already paid for and gain newer functionality from it could possibly be more profitable than forcing you to buy a new one. do the gradeschool math involved and you will realize that day will never come. sorry buddy... fact of life, never gonna change.

Not necessarily true. If phone OSs were developed and sold or given away by a company that didn't make phones, there would be an incentive to build in backward compatibility. That, for better and worse, is what you find with Windows and some Linux distros.

If you are interested in backward compatibility, the only OS maintained by a non-manufacturer is Android (with Moblin in an ambiguous position being maintained by a chip maker, Intel).

Mer could become another alternative if it can achieve the level of stability and sophistication of the more established mobile phone OSs. It's not there yet.

[coderedcomputing]

First off my apologies to anyone for this possible necro on this thread. Just wanted to thank all of you who have been posting about this topic, as many folks such as myself who are looking for a new gadget need to have questions such as this answered. As always when you look at a new release (saw the n900 and commenced drooling) you have to see 'if' the older models which are so much cheaper could even remotely compare.

As it seems, no. It is good to know however. No sense in spending cash on an older n8x0 series when it just won't compete. Good thing I am cheap and decided last year not to get the n810 since my old X3i still 'sort of' works. I should really just run it over with my car and force myself to buy a new portable.

Again, just a word of thanks for this thread. I'll be off to read the many many threads on the n900 now, and figuring out which child to sell into slavery in order to buy that NIT.

[davadio]

First off my apologies to anyone for this possible necro on this thread. Just wanted to thank all of you who have been posting about this topic, as many folks such as myself who are looking for a new gadget need to have questions such as this answered. As always when you look at a new release (saw the n900 and commenced drooling) you have to see 'if' the older models which are so much cheaper could even remotely compare.

As it seems, no. It is good to know however. No sense in spending cash on an older n8x0 series when it just won't compete. Good thing I am cheap and decided last year not to get the n810 since my old X3i still 'sort of' works. I should really just run it over with my car and force myself to buy a new portable.

Again, just a word of thanks for this thread. I'll be off to read the many many threads on the n900 now, and figuring out which child to sell into slavery in order to buy that NIT.

Many feel that the N800/N810 is a better choice as a pocket computer due to the bigger screen. I prefer a seperate cell phone, don't need constant internet connectivity, and sure am not interested in paying a monthly fee. My N800 has been in my pocket daily for 2 years, is loaded with content and usefull apps, and still looks and works like new.

[VulcanRidr]

Many feel that the N800/N810 is a better choice as a pocket computer due to the bigger screen. I prefer a seperate cell phone, don't need constant internet connectivity, and sure am not interested in paying a monthly fee. My N800 has been in my pocket daily for 2 years, is loaded with content and usefull apps, and still looks and works like new.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I am one of those people who wish for the mythical N820, with the same specs as the N900 but without the cell chip.

But, alas, since this is not going to happen, and since the N900 is currently out of my price range (face it, I can get a respectable laptop or two netbooks for the cost of the N900), I am clinging to my N810 (which has been in my pocket for a year, and getting more and more use) and hoping against hope for Mer and the new TI video drivers as our last hope to squeeze some new life out of our beloved tablets.

--vr

[luca]

Mer, yes, but I don't think the ti driver will be a big improvement: it will only help with desktop effects, and once the novelty wears off it will work equally well without.

[VulcanRidr]

Mer, yes, but I don't think the ti driver will be a big improvement: it will only help with desktop effects, and once the novelty wears off it will work equally well without.

True, however many have said the same thing about Beryl/Compiz-Fusion/Compiz on the Linux desktop, but I use it every day and have come to find myself using many of its usability features daily...I actually find that I miss it when I don't have it available.

[chrisvnh]

Wow! go to the bathroom....come back.....and look what happens!!!

actually....i have been away from the forums since late Spring. i spent the Summer and early Fall doing all the stuff i usually do....including travelling and going camping . everywhere i travelled to saw me and my trusty n800 surfing the net looking for directions, checking my emails, checking the weather or looking what was playing at the movies in a town i was visiting.

i just happened to pop in yesterday to look what was new at Internet Tablet Talk and noticed that there was hardly anything left for n8xx users and most threads seem devoted to the phone and n900 stuff.

my n800 has kept me connected to a portion of my online life while i was on the road or away from home. i was amazed at the number of places i could get wi-fi connections. i was able to surf while camping at two different places over the Summer. my n800 was the perfect companion for my daughters and i when we were in a motel room.

when not able to connect to the net......i have used it to read eBooks and play music. my daughter also used it to play games while we drove along. we also used it to watch a few movies at night while camping.

my n800 fills the niche i wanted it to. i dont want to lug around a laptop and my NIT fits easily in all of my back pockets way better than a netbook.

i dont want it to make calls. i have a cheap, no frills cell phone for that.

i am not a programmer and i find the current method of using the "application manager" to add and remove programs runs as good or better than old windows 3.1 and very doable for me.

i am all UP for trying this MER thing when it is ready. after reading this thread.......am i correct in assuming that MER will be an OS that will replace diablo eventually?

will MER be something that i have to install on one of my n800's SD cards and run as part of a dual-boot system? or will it be a new firmware thing that will replace diablo like diablo replaced chinook ?

will MER be something that you real smart guys, tech geeks and nostalgia zealots work on going into the future like those guys that still do stuff to those old sinclair zx80's?

will there be a website for MER that will let us less tech gifted people learn how to install and use MER and where the application manager of MER goes to update or get us programs that folk write for it?

someplace like the internet tablet school or thoughtfix's blog where newbies can learn from the more experienced on how we can keep using our n8xx's as far into the future as we can?

both of those resources are what convinced me to by my n800 and try something Linux as apposed to windows and to NOT get into the money pit i had seen my freinds with ipod touch and iphone fall into.

i know i ask a lot of questions.....sorry....but one last one.

does it make sense or does someone think that MER can be made into a distro that will work on an inexpensive netbook. like one of these i hear about that use ARM chips for long battery life, run cooler, instant on and lighter?

thanks in advance - chriS

[lucag]

Hi everyone,
are there any news about installing Maemo 5 on Nokia N810?
What about Mer? When will be available a new Mer edition (with Maemo 5)
Thanks!

[sjgadsby]

Threads merged.

are there any news about installing Maemo 5 on Nokia N810?
What about Mer? When will be available a new Mer edition (with Maemo 5)

Please read back through this thread.

[lucag]

I've read almost everything....
So, When will be available a new Mer edition (with Maemo 5 and it's UI)?
Thanks

[tabletlover]

I bought my N810 7 months ago and lost it after 3 days. I just found it now and found out that my 2 year old son had hid it inside the closet in a dark corner! Anyway, my question is:

I see now that there is Maemo 5 and I think I have OS2008. I am having problems installing some applications and it keeps saying application package required.. Can I install Maemo 5 on my N810? I am using a Windows installer. How can I download Maemo 5 and where? If I put in my device's serial # it will automatically take me to OS2008. I appreciate any help!:confused:

[ossipena]

you cant. hack could be possible but performance would suck totally.

[taril]

I found this, if I use Maemo 5 root image, will it work on N810, of course, all the N810 drivers are included into the fremantle rootimage. Has anyone already tried to creat a rom?

http://wiki.maemo.org/Modifying_the_root_image

[Stskeeps]

No. ARMv7 vs ARMv6+VFP.

[sjgadsby]

The following threads have been merged into this thread:
"Maemo 5 on N810?" with two posts
"Fremantle on N810 - Is it possible?" with one post

[taril]

Maemo 5 is an opensource system, is it hard to recompile it for ARM 6? Bypassing opengl is not a hard task anyway.

[nowave7]

Maemo 5 is not entirely open source. It has some closed source drivers, and low level stuff, which is Nokia proprietary. Will they release the code now, in light of MeeGo, who knows. It is always possible to take whatever is free, and put that on top of Maemo 4, but we already have Mer.

[Deele]

Any news in Maemo5 for N810? I have come to point, where I would like to reflash whole device, clean up all stuff that has gathered for years, as I have less than 10Mb left on system memory, not possible to install new apps. Thinking about hacking up, making /var mount into mmc1, making possible to use that >1Gb for apps.
I'm thinking, if there is anything newer/better/faster than OS2008, without sacrificing performance (already now, it is hard to watch video clips/movies, with that image stuttering, caused by CPU overuse).
If Maemo5 is ment for N900, which is almost three times powerful, it could considerably slow down my N810.

[luca]

@Deele, look for diablo turbo, it doesn't do miracles but it improves performance in some cases.

[gazza_d]

Any news in Maemo5 for N810? I have come to point, where I would like to reflash whole device, clean up all stuff that has gathered for years, as I have less than 10Mb left on system memory, not possible to install new apps. Thinking about hacking up, making /var mount into mmc1, making possible to use that >1Gb for apps.
I'm thinking, if there is anything newer/better/faster than OS2008, without sacrificing performance (already now, it is hard to watch video clips/movies, with that image stuttering, caused by CPU overuse).
If Maemo5 is ment for N900, which is almost three times powerful, it could considerably slow down my N810.

Not much more that can be done, but as Luca suggests install the diabloturbo packages for a useful improvement in response.

Also, if you have not alreadey install telescope for a maemo5 style task switcher, and diablo5 theme for a maemo5 style theme.

with these three, my N810 is not far of my N900 for most websites etc. it will always stutter and lag playing video. mplayer will help here, as will switching to offline mode and closing all other apps first.. Doing all of this means my N810 will playh mostg dvd movies whivh have been ripped to fit on a cd.

[auouymous]

it will always stutter and lag playing video. mplayer will help here, as will switching to offline mode and closing all other apps first.. Doing all of this means my N810 will playh mostg dvd movies whivh have been ripped to fit on a cd.

Or transcode them http://mediautils.garage.maemo.org/tablet-encode.html