Does Nokia never fire anyone for incompetence?

[livefreeordie]

I don't want this to come off as a rant, so I want to start by saying that I'm not one of those people who jumped on every rumored release date. I also don't think the delay from October to November was a big deal. Hell, I even think Ovi will be a vibrant platform in about a year, and find S60 mostly ok.

The final straw, to me, are the actions of the flagship store in Helsinki. When I visited them months ago, they told me I could preorder either online or by leaving my contact info at the store. They said both alternatives were equal.

So on Monday I inquired about my order, and they said they wouldn't be selling until Friday, because mailed devices needed to arrive at customers' homes on the day of release. Stupid way to remove a brick and mortar benefit, but fair enough - except for the fact that devices from the online store have been arriving throughout the week!

Now it's Friday, and no one's called me. I did some searching, and it turns out they're now saying Wednesday. Maybe.

Are you freaking kidding me??? This isn't a countrywide delay. It's not even a retailer-specific delay. I am in fact getting my device over a week later (maybe) than everyone else just because I ordered from the wrong Nokia department!

I can live without an N900 for a bit longer. I don't care if I'm first. Whatever. But now I'm starting to get really pissed off as a shareholder. These are elementary mistakes - why aren't people getting fired left and right?

This is obviously not the only issue. Experience and searching reveals many more amateur mistakes that shouldn't cost the company any money to fix, but are pissing off customers.

-Nokia UK don't bother updating their firmware servers for months after everyone else.
-Extremely poor grammar in customer correspondence.
-People trying to contact Ovi for valid development questions getting ignored.
-Checkboxes as dropdown menus in S60.
-Failure to stop the press from going crazy with the factory shipment notification two weeks before devices arrived at retailers.

The actual product is otherwise excellent! Why is upper management putting up with this? Are you going to wait until these monkeys accidentally burn down their office buildings or what?

[nuknuk]

The actual product is otherwise excellent!
for some yes i agree for some VERY VERY POOR.

[f pickels]

This will never change. This is the how company's that are to big to care function. and it is not by accident. It is by design. The executive officers are complete unreachable and have isolated themselves from customers. Try to reach the executive offices? Not easy , I tried , it is By design. Customer service is compartmentalized, by design. They are to big to react in a timely manner to market changes, or customers needs. Nokia is the GM of the tech world. So completely out of touch with what people actually want, and how to get products to the market. Prof being Nokias Market share going south in a hurry. They are a Dinosaur on the verge of extinction.

[CrashandDie]

Hi livefreeordie,

First of all, thank you for a very constructive post. I'm sure some will find they don't agree with some of your points, but it is incredibly refreshing to see a properly argumented and formulated post.

However, as this doesn't really relate to Maemo nor the N900 in particular, maybe this would have made more sense in the Off-Topic or General forums.

I completely agree with you: Nokia's move to make a press release that announced the factory-release of the devices was a mistake; they highly overestimated the intelligence of their customers. The incessant trolling and moaning that ensued has no doubt generated a lot of pain and discouraged a few users, moreover I believe it has hurt the COmmunity: our job is not to wield off armies of prepubescent infants throwing a tantrum over the delivery of their latest toys.

I'm afraid not familiar enough with S60 to cast a vote on the other points you adressed, but overall I don't believe firing solves these kind of issues. Yes, some things will need to change, but it is only through making the mistakes that one can learn. I hope Nokia as a whole will learn from the issues they have encountered.

Again, thanks for this post.

(Written on my [loan] N900)

[livefreeordie]

This will never change. This is the how company's that are to big to care function. and it is not by accident. It is by design. The executive officers are complete unreachable and have isolated themselves from customers. Try to reach the executive offices? Not easy , I tried , it is By design. Customer service is compartmentalized, by design. They are to big to react in a timely manner to market changes, or customers needs. Nokia is the GM of the tech world. So completely out of touch with what people actually want, and how to get products to the market. Prof being Nokias Market share going south in a hurry. They are a Dinosaur on the verge of extinction.

But I don't actually agree with that. No other company is even trying to produce anything as amazing as Maemo. Maemo 5 is the only mobile OS I would consider at this point, and Maemo 6 should bring feature parity with S60 for the average user.

On the lower end, S40 is still as solid as it always was. Ovi software is rushed, but getting better by the day. Why are the rest of the departments letting the company down like this?


I'm afraid not familiar enough with S60 to cast a vote on the other points you adressed, but overall I don't believe firing solves these kind of issues. Yes, some things will need to change, but it is only through making the mistakes that one can learn. I hope Nokia as a whole will learn from the issues they have encountered.


I also believe in giving people a second chance, and don't approve of harsh punishment for honest mistakes. It's just that many of these issues are so elementary that it's getting to the point where giving people the benefit of the doubt is just delusional.

[RobertHall]

i agree with this post...after the N97 fiasco i wonder if Nokias beta testers and R&D team who worked on it still have a job? the n97 was a letdown both hardware and software...
on another note people say symbian is "old" but having used non nokia symbian devices...the UI can be adapted to look and feel so much more user friendly without such a drastic overhaul....

[mchu6am4]

need to fire OPK

[fouro]

So on Monday I inquired about my order, and they said they wouldn't be selling until Friday, because mailed devices needed to arrive at customers' homes on the day of release.

This was annoying for me since they told me that I would be getting the device faster from them than from online store since I wouldn't have to wait for mail to carry my device to me. Instead of that, now I'll have to wait a week longer.

Well, I ordered it three months ago so I can understand that they didn't know everything by then. But since I didn't hear anything from them, I really didn't expect anything to change. As someone who ordered it at the beginning of September, I hoped I'd get it earlier.

I've actually had something like 2,5 months to change the pre-order to online store and if I had done it, I would have recieved it probably on monday. The dissapointment comes from the fact that I trusted their word on this. And also from the fact that I would have enough time this weekend to play with it.

Now it's Friday, and no one's called me. I did some searching, and it turns out they're now saying Wednesday. Maybe.

Yep, again annyoing. Someone has really screwed there since they told me that the shipment is in mid-Europe somewhere and no one didn't know where it was. Probably not from Flagship Store this time, but still someone from logistics etc.

I think the biggest issue here is that if rest of the retailers start selling it on Friday, it would be only few days wait. I could have saved several euros by pre-ordering it from someone else and gotten it almost as fast. So now I get a feeling that I'm being screwed financially too. But now it's too late to change.

why aren't people getting fired left and right?

In the end, because the phone is selling far better than expected. I'm quite dissapointed and annoeyd but can't really do anything. Went to store to try out HD2 but still ended up not buying it and waiting for the next week.

[livefreeordie]

need to fire OPK

I know I'm the one who started this thread, but I wouldn't even go that far. We don't know what his long term strategy is, and it seems like Nokia is already trying to change direction fast.

What IS clear is that no one is trying to pick the low hanging fruit, and that blame falls on middle management.


I think the biggest issue here is that if rest of the retailers start selling it on Friday, it would be only few days wait. I could have saved several euros by pre-ordering it from someone else and gotten it almost as fast. So now I get a feeling that I'm being screwed financially too. But now it's too late to change.

I have a backup preorder at verkkokauppa.com. If I don't have the N900 by Wednesday, Nokia Retail is not getting my money no matter what.

I know that's a hollow threat considering Nokia is just losing out on the retail margin, but like I said before, the actual product is great.

[kopte3]

nuknuk, mate, you're boring!! Everybody on this forum know that you have a faulty device, every single member! At first we felt sorry for you. But enough of that whining, please! Go and do something constructive, because doing what you are doing now is just being pain in the ***.
Sorry, but that's the truth.
I hope you'll get another one soon.

[nuknuk]

nuknuk, mate, you're boring!! Everybody on this forum know that you have a faulty device, every single member! At first we felt sorry for you. But enough of that whining, please! Go and do something constructive, because doing what you are doing now is just being pain in the ***.
Sorry, but that's the truth.
I hope you'll get another one soon.

My point of view MATEY and thats yours when i pay £425 for a phone I expect it to do what is says on the box does my phone work NO =TRUTH what you think and others i could not give a DAMM=TRUTH.:D
Opinions are like arseoles everyone has one.:eek:
TRUTH;)

[benny1967]

To answer you question: No. They don't ever fire people because of their incompetence. They fire highly competent employees based on locations etc., but it seems that once you're a Nokia employee, there's no way to lose your job other than working at a site that's being closed down.

Exactly 7 minutes before I read this thread I wrote yet another mail to Nokia "Care"... I'm trying to get help because Ovi Sync doesn't work for me. I've had this problem ever since I discovered the service, and after I found a lot of users on the web describing exactly the errors I get, I decided I probably can't figure it out on my own. So I wrote them. That was in May.

We keep exchanging mails ever since. They say: "Take out your battery, wait 60 seconds, type *#7370# to reformat your device, re-flash the latest firmware, everything should be fine. Oh, you will lose all your settings."
I say: "Oh, thanks, I did that just the other day, I'm working on a fresh and clean device now, I'm getting the same error. May I point out that many users report the same error with various models, and that all users say that other SyncML services work for them? Could it be there's a problem with Ovi?"
Then they say: "Take out your battery, wait 60 seconds, type *#7370# to reformat your device, re-flash the latest firmware, everything should be fine. Oh, you will lose all your settings."

We're having this senile-couple-type of conversation for 6 months now.

I know this is pure incompetence on the other side. I've given up on it, as I've given up on anything that has "Ovi" in its name. But it doesn't have any consequences. There's no mechanism there that handles complaints, no process that takes care of endless mail threads etc. ... it's like two girlies from the neighborhood opening a store for knitware, not knowing they'll have to pay taxes one day. Absolutely overextended by the burden of reality.

Now this is one of the things that drive me mad because I'm working in a customer service department. My employer is among the 10 biggest companies in my country. We did fire people because they did a lousy job (not as bad as the people at Nokia, but still...), we did try hard and even harder to meet the demands of our customers. We're not there yet (we never will be), but when I look back I can see what we changed for the better. And our customers see and appreciate it. But as I said, it was tough, and we fired all of those who weren't willing or capable. (To be honest, many of them we didn't fire. We tried to find jobs for them where they wouldn't have direct contact with customers. The managers had to go for good, though.)

I feel a certain kind of anger when I compare our situation (and the fate of those who had to leave us) with the seemingly sugar.sweet paradise that is Nokia Care. Where you don't have to do what your job should be: care. Where this doesn't have any consequences... because if it had, maybe some day one of these execudroids there would teach his staff to read the mails the receive. Then, as a second step, they could try to find answers and reply accordingly. Maybe they'd also someday discover the wonders of internal trouble ticketing and how it could be used to... oh my dear, I'm dreaming again.

So-called journalists keep telling you it's capacitive vs. resistive or S60 vs. Android that makes Nokias market share decline. Maybe it's just the ignorant, stupid, indifferent answers you get from their customer "care".

And this is just one example.

The only thing with Nokia is that no other company (except SE, maybe) has such brilliant phones. I still feel they're worth all the trouble. My >2 year old Nokia can do more than all these Androids and iPhones today... (and much more than the N900, sad to say)

[livefreeordie]

Nuknuk, you can't expect them to not ship the occasional dud.

[nuknuk]

Nuknuk, you can't expect them to not ship the occasional dud.

True but a mic problem come on ,Nokia are proberly having them built on the cheap hence made in KOREA, the n97 was a let down aswel,l the best phone i had was the N82 .

[deadmalc]

In large corporations you will find a large proportion of management are completely incompetent.
Sometimes I wonder how we make it through the next day...but we do somehow, probably all the guys at the bottom making the sun come up (as it were)

[jaysire]

Now it's Friday, and no one's called me. I did some searching, and it turns out they're now saying Wednesday. Maybe.

This is not meant to be a Nelson-type "ha ha", but I had the exact same experience. I left my name and number a month ahead of release at the Helsinki flagstore. I had gone in there to testdrive the N900 multiple times and the guy presenting the device just casually mentioned that "if you want, you can leave your information and we'll contact you the day we start selling - you'd be among the first".

Luckily for me, I saw right through that promise - perhaps because I'm a finn and sort of decoded what he said as an empty promise - so a couple of weeks later I ordered it online, with the distinct feeling that my *promise* of money, that comes through entering my cc details, weighs a lot more than just a casually left phone number.

I ordered on Nov 12th and received my N900 on Nov 23rd. I am doubtful wether I'll ever hear from the flagstore.

Maybe I got wiser from the gigantic clusterduck that was the iPhone release in Finland. I was in line for a whole month longer than my colleague and yet I pre-ordered several weeks ahead of him. It was just random and the reaction was the exact same as I imagine yours was: "Oh, you were treated poorly, ok, well I can try to find out what place you are at in line, if you want?". Finns don't often do apologies and rarely groveling towards scorned customers. The repercussions of incompetence are often inversely proportional to the size of the company.

[phreck]

blah

The Nokia store and the corporation are probably two very seperate entities under the same umbrella. Would be hard to figure out who is really at fault there.

[fouro]

The Nokia store and the corporation are probably two very seperate entities under the same umbrella. Would be hard to figure out who is really at fault there.

True, but as a customer, I really don't care who is to blame. I just want to see some real effort to corretc it, not just vague "it's somewhere, we don't know anything, let you know some day when we got it".

That's probably one big issue for a large corporation. I wouldn't wonder if one would go on an internal back-and-forth blaming for some mistake and forget that the customer couldn't care less about who made the mistake inside the company. The do care for the company somehow making effort to corretc that it.

[livefreeordie]

blah

The Nokia store and the corporation are probably two very seperate entities under the same umbrella. Would be hard to figure out who is really at fault there.

The flagship stores' primary function is branding. If they don't have adequate contact with marketing, things are even worse than I thought ;)

[benny1967]

blah

The Nokia store and the corporation are probably two very seperate entities under the same umbrella. Would be hard to figure out who is really at fault there.

That's a strategy that's known to work. The Austrian Federal Railways, once a government-run monopoly, was split into countless small companies. One owns and runs the stations now, a different one is responsible for the tracks, then there's even two that operate the trains (cargo and passengers), ... and more.

Yet they all operate under the same brand.

When you go to the information counter in a railway station and ask for details about a train, they tell you that they have no idea because they are responsible only for the station. They can tell you where the toilets and the restaurants are in the building, but not if the next train to Vienna has a dining car.

That's the way to ruin a brand, I can tell you. People go nuts over this.

If Nokia is doing this, too, then we know why they're losing customers.

[livefreeordie]

Yep, again annyoing. Someone has really screwed there since they told me that the shipment is in mid-Europe somewhere and no one didn't know where it was. Probably not from Flagship Store this time, but still someone from logistics etc.

By the way, I wouldn't believe this either. Rerouting some misdelivered phones within Europe shouldn't take over a week, and they obviously knew about this problem on Monday, since they bullshitted about waiting for the online store.

Lying is really not ok at all.

[livefreeordie]

When you go to the information counter in a railway station and ask for details about a train, they tell you that they have no idea because they are responsible only for the station. They can tell you where the toilets and the restaurants are in the building, but not if the next train to Vienna has a dining car.

That's sick. How do organizations end up in situations like these? At what point did someone sign off on that thinking it was a good idea?

Since we're sharing stories, in 2005 the national broadcasting company sold off the Finnish TV infrastructure in a desperate bid for cash to finance a premature and political DTV rollout.

Fast forward to 2009 and every single Finnish broadcaster is complaining that the monopolist French purchaser is price gouging.

Who could have guessed???

[fouro]

By the way, I wouldn't believe this either. Rerouting some misdelivered phones within Europe shouldn't take over a week, and they obviously knew about this problem on Monday, since they bullshitted about waiting for the online store.

Yeah, that might be true too, good point. Or just no one knows anything and they're guessing, but nothing good anyway.

[benny1967]

That's sick. How do organizations end up in situations like these?

McKinsey, Booz, Capgemini,...
Enter, be clueless but well-dressed, pick a random plan, leave, never return.

[dccupp]

I completely agree with you: Nokia's move to make a press release that announced the factory-release of the devices was a mistake; they highly overestimated the intelligence of their customers. The incessant trolling and moaning that ensued has no doubt generated a lot of pain and discouraged a few users, moreover I believe it has hurt the COmmunity: our job is not to wield off armies of prepubescent infants throwing a tantrum over the delivery of their latest toys.

You should apply for a job with Nokia if you don't work there already.

NokiaGuy: We've ran into a delay in the release date :(

You: Just tell them it'll be released sometime next month instead. Then when it's ready to leave the factories, we'll tell them it's shipping :cool:

Customers: WTF who the hell uses the term "shipping" to mean shipping from the factories?!? :mad:

You: Aw shut up. You guys are stupid baby trolls. Stop having a fit. :p

Me: :eek:

[phreck]

That's a strategy that's known to work. The Austrian Federal Railways, once a government-run monopoly, was split into countless small companies. One owns and runs the stations now, a different one is responsible for the tracks, then there's even two that operate the trains (cargo and passengers), ... and more.

Yet they all operate under the same brand.

When you go to the information counter in a railway station and ask for details about a train, they tell you that they have no idea because they are responsible only for the station. They can tell you where the toilets and the restaurants are in the building, but not if the next train to Vienna has a dining car.

That's the way to ruin a brand, I can tell you. People go nuts over this.

If Nokia is doing this, too, then we know why they're losing customers.

Benny, pretty sure its failing miserably.

The outsourcing of Brightpoint for their online transactions is just another nail in the coffin IMO.

[CrashandDie]

You should apply for a job with Nokia if you don't work there already.

NokiaGuy: We've ran into a delay in the release date :(

You: Just tell them it'll be released sometime next month instead. Then when it's ready to leave the factories, we'll tell them it's shipping :cool:

Customers: WTF who the hell uses the term "shipping" to mean shipping from the factories?!? :mad:

You: Aw shut up. You guys are stupid baby trolls. Stop having a fit. :p

Me: :eek:

Thank you for illustrating my point. And no, just because I'm sane doesn't mean I should work Nokia. Please re-read my post. I said it was a mistake on Nokia's behalf to have announced the factory-release as the holy grail. It was a terrible move. They probably assumed (and I'm assuming this) that announcing the very close availability would boost pre-order sales. Sadly, people mis-interpreted it, and thought Nokia meant that everyone would have it in a week or two. I didn't say you were wrong to moan about it, I was just saying that the Community now has to deal with you guys, because of Nokia's mistake to make that announcement.

By the way, I wouldn't believe this either. Rerouting some misdelivered phones within Europe shouldn't take over a week, and they obviously knew about this problem on Monday, since they bullshitted about waiting for the online store.

Lying is really not ok at all.

So.... You're annoyed because a salesperson, someone paid on commission, told you not to buy online, but buy from him instead, you believed him, and he actually told you a lie? Oh my goodness, what has the world come to!

Of course he lied. No, he didn't have a clue what he was talking about. He probably used the first line that popped into his head and changed it as he was talking to you to fit your reaction. He's a sales! He has no idea where the shipment is, nor should he. He just tries to keep you happy. If you have a smile, or are not yelling when leaving the shop, he did his job. If you come back later and buy the device from him, he did his job and will get a bonus for it. Please don't tell me you're that naive you don't realise this?

That's a strategy that's known to work. The Austrian Federal Railways, once a government-run monopoly, was split into countless small companies. One owns and runs the stations now, a different one is responsible for the tracks, then there's even two that operate the trains (cargo and passengers), ... and more.

Yet they all operate under the same brand.

When you go to the information counter in a railway station and ask for details about a train, they tell you that they have no idea because they are responsible only for the station. They can tell you where the toilets and the restaurants are in the building, but not if the next train to Vienna has a dining car.

That's the way to ruin a brand, I can tell you. People go nuts over this.

If Nokia is doing this, too, then we know why they're losing customers.

Oh please. Can you pick an even worse example? Nokia isn't a state-owned company. Nokia isn't splitting up into separate companies "acting under the same umbrella company".

Nokia is a privately held, share-funded company, with a board, exec team and everything. Why would they want to divide it up? But a company as big as Nokia has separate divisions. Hell, every company has divisions. And yes, that means less communications. The salesforce is part of the sales organisation, which has absolutely nothing to do with engineering, product management or even shipping and packaging.

Don't forget, when you are talking to a salesperson in a shop, you are talking to the lowest person in the whole Nokia world. They're not execs, they don't get memos or listen in on phone conferences. They get briefed about the products to be sold, and that's about it.

Now can we please get back on track with this topic, which I believe, WAS NOT ABOUT SHIPPING.

[Andre Klapper]

My point of view MATEY and thats yours when i pay £425 for a phone I expect it to do what is says on the box does my phone work NO =TRUTH what you think and others i could not give a DAMM=TRUTH.:D
Opinions are like arseoles everyone has one.:eek:
TRUTH;)

Just finally contact Nokia Care instead of spamming the forum. Yes, hardware issues should not, but can happen. With a phone, a car, and any other product.
It's getting a bit boring that I see you posting in nearly every single thread complaining about your microphone issue.
Thanks a lot in advance for potential constructive actions in the future.

[Andre Klapper]

McKinsey, Booz, Capgemini,...
Enter, be clueless but well-dressed, pick a random plan, leave, never return.

Actually consulting companies just have a better clue in putting together data that already exists in a big company, and analyzing it. This can also be done by the big companies without these consulting companies, but is more complicated to push internally it seems, so they hire an external consulting company.

That's my small little view on this world, being a business student.

[CrashandDie]

Actually consulting companies just have a better clue in putting together data that already exists in a big company, and analyzing it. This can also be done by the big companies without these consulting companies, but is more complicated to push internally it seems, so they hire an external consulting company.

That's my small little view on this world, being a business student.

CapGemini and others are far more now than just "consulting companies". They run entire IT departments for major organisations (CapGemini, for example, handles the London Met Police IT infrastructure). BT is another example. At some point, the line between consulting, system integrator and vendor becomes blurred.

[benny1967]

Actually consulting companies just have a better clue in putting together data that already exists in a big company, and analyzing it. This can also be done by the big companies without these consulting companies, but is more complicated to push internally it seems, so they hire an external consulting company.

In theory, yes.

It doesn't work in practice, though. The main point is that they never face the consequences of what they're doing. They really don't care, usually.

We have them in our company all the time, overlapping, each working on different targets and projects. I can't judge all of it, but when they decide we have to re-organise in a certain way... and then 18 months later the next consulting company says we need to re-organise again, and it turns out that the new organisation is the one we had 18 months ago... you start asking what the money was spent for.

Also, I know which data they work with. I know all these statistics and reports. I know how they're collected and put together. I know how wrong parts of them are and how carefully you have to interpret them. - They only take what's written in the spreadsheet and use it as a base for their decisions. It's sad sometimes. We tell them, but they don't want to hear. Their contract ends in three weeks and re-calculating everything with the new information (or even defining from scratch which information exactly would be needed) doesn't fit their schedule.

That's my small little view on this world, being surrounded by these vampires for ~7 years now.

[CrashandDie]

That's my small little view on this world, being surrounded by these vampires for ~7 years now.

Please don't throw everyone on the same pile of ****. Yes, some consulting companies are horrendous and incompetent, that doesn't mean we all are.

The reason I'm saying this is because I am a consultant. We work very harsh hours and I honestly we do a good job. Our projects run on time, we have a very strict methodology which is proven through literally hundreds of projects over the past few years.

That being said, I'm not a consultant for a consulting company, I'm a consultant for a software company, dealing mainly with our own software. The point remains though: consultants aren't bad. Bad project management (on either side), however, is disastrous.

[mikec]

Company's do know this information for themselves. But rarely can they have the culture to make changes from within. Its the same reason that top sports people have coaches.

[jjx]

But a company as big as Nokia has separate divisions. Hell, every company has divisions. And yes, that means less communications. The salesforce is part of the sales organisation, which has absolutely nothing to do with engineering, product management or even shipping and packaging.

That's not the only way to divide up an organisation into divisions, although it is a common one. It is not necessarily the best way.

We can say "the salesperson said this because they are the lowest of the low and only handed a sales memo", but then we should remind the company management that it's their choice to organise the company that way, and therefore their responsibility when the customer service experience suffers due to it.

[dccupp]

Thank you for illustrating my point. And no, just because I'm sane doesn't mean I should work Nokia. Please re-read my post. I said it was a mistake on Nokia's behalf to have announced the factory-release as the holy grail. It was a terrible move. They probably assumed (and I'm assuming this) that announcing the very close availability would boost pre-order sales. Sadly, people mis-interpreted it, and thought Nokia meant that everyone would have it in a week or two. I didn't say you were wrong to moan about it, I was just saying that the Community now has to deal with you guys, because of Nokia's mistake to make that announcement.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You are admitting that Nokia made a mistake in the N900 release. You saying we "are not wrong to moan about it".

But yet you say "they highly overestimated the intelligence of their customers" essentially calling us dumb moaning trolls whining for our "latest toys".

And THEN you have the gall to accuse US of "hurting the Community".

Well, I'm SO SORRY that I had the NERVE to expect Nokia to be competent in releasing a device I had committed to purchase and I don't just sit here and smile with a s*** eating grin on my face over such a poorly handled device rollout.

[Venomrush]

-Nokia UK don't bother updating their firmware servers for months after everyone else.

I strongly disagree with this.
You are not looking it from a big picture point of view.

Firstly,
How many phones does Nokia have that they have to provide updates for?
Compare that to Apple and the Android...

Secondly,
I am an owner of the N97, from June to October (4 months) they released 3 updates, with one being consider as Major

Thirdly,
For the N900, potentially there will be serveral updates for it before Christmas.

[jjx]

Just remember that if you buy a phone through a network/carrier which puts their own branded firmware on it, you can find the firmware updates are limited to the rate that the network/carrier decides.

I had a Nokia 6120 Classic for a couple of years. Great phone, had a few issues (like mic not working sometimes ;)). Nokia issued a firmware release quite soon after I got the phone.

But the network, Three, didn't roll out that important fix in the entire 2 years I had the phone. In fact they never rolled out any firmware updates.

That also means I could not install free Symbian software on it either. It wouldn't accept the free application keys.

So, let it be a lesson.... Going through a network operator can mean you don't get all the firmware updates you were expecting, and when that happens, it isn't Nokia's fault. But it might give some people the impression there are no updates being made, which isn't always correct.

[RevdKathy]

Just a comment about Nokia UK and firmware releases: the problem in my understanding is less with nokia than with the grotty proprietry extras stuffed on top which chokes up firmware updates.

[livefreeordie]

I strongly disagree with this.
You are not looking it from a big picture point of view.

Firstly,
How many phones does Nokia have that they have to provide updates for?
Compare that to Apple and the Android...

Secondly,
I am an owner of the N97, from June to October (4 months) they released 3 updates, with one being consider as Major

This is not the problem. Being unable to release timely updates at all would qualify as an understandably difficult issue to fix quickly, but having them and not releasing them in one country is just the type of BS I find unacceptable.



Just remember that if you buy a phone through a network/carrier which puts their own branded firmware on it, you can find the firmware updates are limited to the rate that the network/carrier decides.

Nope, unfortunately this isn't it either. From what I've read, ALL updates are delayed in the UK. I found this thread (http://discussions.nokia.co.uk/discussions/board/message?board.id=swupdate&thread.id=56895) that discusses it. Operator branding, as horrible as it is, is also not an excuse to delay an update for 11 whole months (see link).

Especially in the case of the N97, on which firmware seems to have gone from crap to good, Nokia's marketing department should absolutely be pushing even operators to release updates as soon as possible.




So.... You're annoyed because a salesperson, someone paid on commission, told you not to buy online, but buy from him instead, you believed him, and he actually told you a lie? Oh my goodness, what has the world come to!

Of course he lied. No, he didn't have a clue what he was talking about. He probably used the first line that popped into his head and changed it as he was talking to you to fit your reaction.

There comes a point when you have to be able to trust a salesperson. For example, if I ask about the resolution, I wouldn't expect him to tell me about competitors' better screens (if any), but he shouldn't tell me it's 1080p. Otherwise, why talk to them at all?

Notably this isn't even a case of one retailer lying to steal another retailer's business. It would be one Nokia department trying to steal the business of another Nokia department, while risking angry customers. I don't care if the guy is on commission - this is something his manager shouldn't allow. PLUS it seems it was the store's official policy. AND the flagship stores are there for branding and customer satisfaction first, direct sales second.

Customer satisfaction is reduced for no reason. They're not saving money on more brittle materials, they're not paying less salespeople and getting long queues, they're just... failing.

[jfinn]

I don't think I've ever been treated as poorly by any company as I have been by the Nokia USA customer service people - they should ALL be fired! After owning a Nokia N77, N90, and N95 8G, I foolishly decided I'm like an N900 & preordered one in September. Weekly online status checks always showed the order as "in process" and every two weeks or so, Nokia would place a "pending" hold for $700 on my bank account & after 3 days, the hold would be removed. In November, this blog site started to comment on the "new ordering system" for preorders. I called & was told my order would never ship unless it was cancelled & reordered in the "new format" and all the other stuff about 15% discount - no bluetooth device- increase in extended warranty price, etc. After they cancelled my original order, they declared that they could not enter a new order because my account had been "flagged" as a fraud account. After spending 3 days on the phone with Nokia Sales, my bank, and myself, I was told that I needed to change bank accounts to get the order through (this per their "elevation" of my case).
I did change bank accounts & a new order (178405) was created & a confirmation e-mail was sent to me on Nov. 18.
On Friday, Nov. 20, my new account was hit by a Nokia SA "pending action" hold for $628. On Tuesday, Nov. 24, the hold was removed - I called my bank & was told that the acount & the charge was O:K but that the hold was automatically removed after 3 days if the transaction was not finalized by then. I called Nokia on 11/25 because online status check either showed "Ooops, unable to find that page" or "unable to locate your order" every day since 11/18. Was told that the order was fine, inventory was being shipped, and I should call back on Friday, Nov.27 for shipping details on my N900. Imagine my surprise when I called & was told that my order suddenly could not be" authorized by Nokia" and had been cancelled. Was told I'd have to wait 10 days to 2 weeks & then process a totally new order &, if they could get it through the system, my N900 would be shipped after all the other preorders were filled. Was further told that my order had previously been "elevated" & I could not have any further review done! I have been a T-Mobile customer for many years & remain with them because their customer service people are the best in the world. After this N900 farce, I may never purchase a Nokia product again and plan to file complaints with the Better Business Bureau, State of Michigan Attorney General's office, the U.S. Attorney General's office, the Consumers Protection Agency and ALL cellphone blod sites I can access suggesting false & misleading advertising and possible misconduct in how NokiaUSA appears to be selectively screening who does or doesn't get an N900. I'm sorry Nokia, but if your market share continues to decline, look no further than your customer service representation.

[livefreeordie]

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You are admitting that Nokia made a mistake in the N900 release. You saying we "are not wrong to moan about it".

But yet you say "they highly overestimated the intelligence of their customers" essentially calling us dumb moaning trolls whining for our "latest toys".

And THEN you have the gall to accuse US of "hurting the Community".

He's not talking out of both sides of his mouth. He's saying that Nokia's mistake made the problem possible, but the actual problem is still the whining and trolling.

An adult should be able to cope with misunderstanding a shipment notification. Nokia should've realized they need to be more careful. These are separate issues.

[range]

CapGemini and others are far more now than just "consulting companies". They run entire IT departments for major organisations

I think you meant "ruin" here.

SCNR, really.

[livefreeordie]

I don't think I've ever been treated as poorly by any company as I have been by the Nokia USA customer service people - they should ALL be fired!

I think this is a good example of where things start going horribly wrong. His constant checking of his bank account and getting his hopes up unnecessarily was more of a user problem, but the way they treated him about it is horrible.

Planning to change the preordering system in the middle of two of the most important product launches (X6) in recent years - idiotic.

Telling customers they'll have to manually reorder - incompetent.

Removing promised discounts and extras - legal liability.

Screwing over the company's strategy by consistently pissing off early adopters - you are FIRED on the spot.

But not at Nokia, it seems.

[Viipottaja]

Welcome to customer service.

[jaysire]

There comes a point when you have to be able to trust a salesperson. For example, if I ask about the resolution, I wouldn't expect him to tell me about competitors' better screens (if any), but he shouldn't tell me it's 1080p. Otherwise, why talk to them at all?

I'd say you are way better off NOT trusting sales people. Not when it comes to technical specs or availability. They only sell the stuff and at best they know how to read from a spec sheet and sometimes they even know what the stuff they're reading means. They might get a bonus for every sale, but at least their sales numbers are closely monitored, so they're inclined towards saying stuff you want to hear.

My experience of sales people is that the second you, as a buyer, get a bit invested in a product and start finding out stuff about it on the internet, you know more about it than the average sales person (the foot soldiers at least - I've seen amazing exceptions like small photo stores, where the owner is a photographer and knows way more than me and has a LOT more experience. Sadly, brilliant people rarely want to be sales people).

[dccupp]

He's not talking out of both sides of his mouth. He's saying that Nokia's mistake made the problem possible, but the actual problem is still the whining and trolling.

An adult should be able to cope with misunderstanding a shipment notification. Nokia should've realized they need to be more careful. These are separate issues.

If he's saying it's not wrong to moan about Nokia's CONTINUED mishandling of the product launch, then why in the next breath insult people for doing just that?

And for the record, it's not "just" a misunderstanding of a shipment notification. And if it is indeed a "misunderstanding" then why was there no official word by Nokia stating the actual situation?

The fact is Nokia screwed up big time. So people are going to voice their displeasure. What is not "adult" about that?

[livefreeordie]

I'd say you are way better off NOT trusting sales people.
...
My experience of sales people is that the second you, as a buyer, get a bit invested in a product and start finding out stuff about it on the internet

Agreed. I never walk into a store without knowing what I want already. But you'd somehow expect better from the flagship store. They even have a guy with a sign that says "Maemo expert".