[Under consideration] Proposed Talk forum improvements for 2010 [Archive] - maemo.org

Texrat

12-15-2009, 03:04 AM

Abstract:

There's been a great deal of discussion (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=34215) here about the discussion forum needing a redesign. This is your opportunity to provide guidance (no guarantee at this point though that a resource will be available-- this is just to propose ideas to start).

Feel free to add your Solution(s) for a preferred discussion layout. Detailed outlines, flow diagrams and the like will be especially helpful in an endeavor like this, so try to represent your suggested layout(s) visually and link to your Solution(s).

Brainstorm item: http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/proposed_talk_forum_redesign_for_2010/

buurmas

12-15-2009, 02:22 PM

GeraldKo, your solution involves filtering categories, but I think we need to know what the categories are, don't we? Seems like that's part of the problem.

Texrat

12-15-2009, 02:26 PM

Solution proposed by member GeraldKo:

Solution #1: Add checkboxes for Talk Categories for filtering New Posts

GeraldKo

12-15-2009, 02:56 PM

GeraldKo, your solution involves filtering categories, but I think we need to know what the categories are, don't we? Seems like that's part of the problem.

Yes, and I put up Solution #3 before reading your post here.

I put up Solution #1 as a part of any solution. I figure if we can put up parts of solutions, then maybe we can get to consensus piecemeal. It seems more efficient than just putting up whole-hog solutions.

I need to look at your Solution now, haven't yet. There is certainly nothing about my Solution #1 that's meant to be exclusive of other solutions.

GeraldKo

12-15-2009, 03:09 PM

Re Buurmas' Solution #2.

I like it. It's better than my solution #3 if it can be done without a long, long wait.

In the thread (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=34215&highlight=re-structuring&page=11)that started this Brainstorm, Texrat and fatalsaint have labeled my re-categorization approach "band-aiding" and they're right. I'm all for your deeper re-structure, but I don't want nothing to happen on account of a solution being too ambitious.

As for the checkbox filtering, that could be done regardless of how the forum categories are re-structured, with or without tagging, or even if there is no re-structuring (other than the checkbox filter itself, insofar as that counts as "re-structuring").

If Reggie implemented that today, I could at least go through New Posts with "Off Topic," "Device:N900" and "OS/Platform: Maemo 5/Fremantle" unchecked -- and that would be a huge help. (I say that "I could" do that, but "I" in this instance is not just me; it represents those of us here who are just not just interested in the N900 or Fremantle at this point, or not interested enough to wade through all the threads about it.)

Texrat

12-15-2009, 03:16 PM

Hey, the "band-aid" phrase was all fatalsaint! :p

But seriously, you're correct: breaking solutions into manageable chunks can speed implementation of easy ones.

fatalsaint

12-16-2009, 01:29 AM

I figured since I was so active in the original thread I should participate :).

I have added a solution that is what I was discussing earlier, and is a bit of a hybrid between Gerald's solution #3 and Joel's Solution #2.

I didn't think solution #3 was specific enough, as it offered way to many options or potential solutions within a single solution, and I don't particularly like the "tag" method described in solution #2.

The issue I see with the solution #2 is that if a user goes, via the forum home page, to a Software category, they would get all the software posts related to all OS's whether they need or want that or not. The only way to then break it out is by a custom (or pre-programmed) search of some kind to limit by tags.

If the forum is broken out by the lowest common denominators then a user would pick a software category specific to their platform and only see related posts. No need for searching or tags at all.

fatalsaint

12-16-2009, 01:39 AM

What do you mean temporary? Solutions 2, (some of the ones in 3), and 4 simply require additional devices or OS tags or categories to be added in their respective areas. Solution #1 is the only one I see really as a "temporary" solution. However, if you can think of something that would change that solutions 2-4 would not address, please - by all means say it and I/we can try make our solutions more dynamic.

Texrat

12-16-2009, 01:44 AM

The solution building for this one is going to have to run a while, I'm sure.

And feel free to edit (ie refine) your solutions during this phase, based on feedback, epiphanies, whatever.

buurmas

12-16-2009, 03:27 PM

If the forum is broken out by the lowest common denominators then a user would pick a software category specific to their platform and only see related posts. No need for searching or tags at all.
A fair point. One plug for tags: they (as opposed to categories) give thread creators the option of specifying more than one. Do we need/want that? If I recall correctly, there are cases of apps written for OS2007 that work in OS2008 without modification--perhaps those threads could have two OS tags. Also, IIUC, Mer and Fremantle are highly compatible, but not 100%. For example, some Fremantle software will take advantage of N900-specific hardware like the accelerometer. Also, right now, applications for Mer (like Tear) need to be put in a Mer repository. I'm not aware that Mer is officially pulling from the Fremantle repository yet, although perhaps that is on the near horizon. So I'm not sure if this is a good argument or not.

Dak

12-16-2009, 03:34 PM

May I suggest that it is somewhat ridiculous for a site dedicated to a mobile OS to not be an exemplary model of mobile site design?

This site is not well designed for such visually constrained devices.

We're so used to nice big hi-rez screens that we've abandoned the skills required to be conservative with screen real estate....it's a challenging job, getting it right for mobile devices!

Fargus

12-16-2009, 03:43 PM

I agree with Dak - the other problem I have is that on both the N810 AND the N900 the longer threads become difficult to navigate as the page links at top and bottom of the page become corrupted. Also the left pain with content is wider than the real estate without triggering a horzontal bar so can't scroll. Please test on the devices this forum is about please - bit daft otherwise!

fatalsaint

12-16-2009, 04:01 PM

A fair point. One plug for tags: they (as opposed to categories) give thread creators the option of specifying more than one. Do we need/want that? If I recall correctly, there are cases of apps written for OS2007 that work in OS2008 without modification--perhaps those threads could have two OS tags. Also, IIUC, Mer and Fremantle are highly compatible, but not 100%. For example, some Fremantle software will take advantage of N900-specific hardware like the accelerometer. Also, right now, applications for Mer (like Tear) need to be put in a Mer repository. I'm not aware that Mer is officially pulling from the Fremantle repository yet, although perhaps that is on the near horizon. So I'm not sure if this is a good argument or not.

This is actually a very good point... and Mer is most certainly a great example of how dynamic this community is. Mer currently is nothing but a bastardized step-child somewhat related by a binary-or-two to the current Maemo 5 (ok, maybe not that bad, but its no where near complete, in my understanding.)

Eventually compatibility is the goal.. however I am highly doubtful that it will ever be 100%. But depending on how close it gets it may or may not be worth having it's own sub-forum. (which is why I listed it as optional.)

Also note, however, that in my solution I don't necessarily say we can't use tags, or to remove them. Tags are fine for a more granular search if someone chooses - because tags can include information not OS or Software specific. You can tag an application as "mp4,xvid,h.264" for example to specifically say your app adds these capabilities. However, we wouldn't make a sub-forum for every different codec a media app might provide.

And I had already put in my "known problems" that apps that apply to two different OS's would be a problem. Unfortunately, I just don't think we'll ever address *every* problem possible; and it is my personal opinion there would be less bleed from one category/OS to another, as bundling everything into one category, and relying solely on tags would be confusing to new-comers. A solution that addresses both these problems is definitely appreciated.

Dak and Fargus also have very good points about design and layout. I utterly fail at both, or I would try to add something into my solution about it. I recommend someone that can draw better than me (read: if you can draw a stig figure: you're better than me :D) to go and post a solution to try and address this.

RevdKathy

12-16-2009, 04:59 PM

Just to say that I view the forum in conventional grey-and-orange on the desktop and laptop, but use the 'classic dark' on the tablet as they layout is much, much easier.

GeraldKo

12-16-2009, 10:42 PM

The solution building for this one is going to have to run a while, I'm sure.

NO! NO! NO! NO! We have already lost N8x0 users, and the longer we wait the more we lose. Yes, I have a specific agenda, and I don't want it sacrificed. I want changes that will preserve a viable Diablo community, and that community has already taken a hit because this grossly overdue "re-structuring" has been so tardy already.

Texrat, you yourself said:

The implementation isn't complicated at all, and I don't think I ever said it needed to be. Heck I could craft something up in half an hour or less, have it in a day later, done.

OK, take your time on re-structuring categories, but my Solution #1* (filtering by checkbox) is straightforward, would help N8x0 users immensely and immediately, and would be compatible with whatever else everyone comes up with over your long "while."

I wish you would place your efforts on the side of a quick implementation. Because you are interested in the N900 you have no idea how useless and inefficient this forum feels for someone who doesn't share that interest.

There is no reason to wait for other aspects of a re-structuring. I want it now, and that's reasonable.

*Dave Pat's Solution #5 (allowing Advanced Searches with blank keywords) likewise is straightforward, and it's particularly commendable for its simplicity. My only issues with it are that it doesn't make for easy New Posts searches with all the functionality the New Posts button currently offers and it very inconveniently forces the user to choose the categories every time he initiates a search.

fatalsaint

12-16-2009, 10:45 PM

GeraldKo

12-16-2009, 11:34 PM

Can you explain how to filter, by checkbox, the current structure of this forum - quickly - and get the information you want?

N800, N810 and N900 are all in the same categories, I doubt they are all tagged properly, what exactly are you going to put a "checkbox" on for people to search by?

The solution regarding allowing Null Searches and just selecting certain areas is a little more feasible.. but you're still going to get noise because they are all intermingled with eachother as it is.

There are various ways it could be done. It can almost be done now.

For example, the user could go to Advanced Search. There is already a list of the 29 sub-categories there, under the heading "Search in Forum(s)." Currently you can select which forums to search by clicking on a forum you want so that it's highlighted, and then clicking on another you want while holding down the Control Key (at least in Windows that's the proper key for this).

So, for example, if I click on only "Devices:N800" and use "gpodder" as my keyword, I get 12 hits, all in threads that are in the N800 category (or, as this website likes to put it, in "Forum: Nokia N800"). If I use the Control key and add the category for "OS2008 / Maemo 4 / Chinook - Diablo" (so that I now have two categories selected) and I again use "gpodder" as my keyword, I get 19 hits (that is, 19 threads). (As you would expect, if I select only "OS2008 / Maemo 4 / Chinook - Diablo", I get 7. If I use the two I already used plus "Maemo 5 / Fremantle," I get 28.)

So having checkboxes, instead of having to hold down the Control Key, to select multiple categories (or what the website refers to as "forums") is trivial. It's just clearer and easier (at least to me).

Then I want the website to remember my last selection of "forums" (what I usually call Categories or Sub-Categories). (Currently the website resets it each time once I close the search.) Once it is remembered, I want to be able to hit the New Posts button and have it do exactly what it already does for New Posts -- but omitting threads according to the filters I had set when I was last in Advanced Search, that is, according to the "forums" I had selected when I last did an Advanced Search.

fatalsaint

12-16-2009, 11:55 PM

Ok, I understand. However, gpodder could also be under multimedia right?? So I did a search for gpodder selecting only Multimedia under software. 15 hits. So then I did a search for "gpodder n800" in Multimedia and still got 3 hits.

But how are we to know if any of the other 12 hits are related to the N800? They could be related to any hardware.

Anyway.. the point is your search system is not giving you all the information. I suppose implementing will get you a "most"... but it's possible the solution to someone's problem could easily be missed if it falls through their search strings.

GeraldKo

12-17-2009, 12:28 AM

Sure, all I was doing was giving an example of how the website already has a filtering mechanism.

I'm really trying to accomplish primarily one thing: make this forum viable again for people who use Diablo and aren't much interested in the N900/Fremantle posts that absolutely, overwhelmingly swamp the posts that are relevant to us.

And the way I'm saying this goal could readily be accomplished is by making New Posts effective for us. (I think most regular contributors rely on going regularly to the New Posts button.)

So the way I (and I believe most people in my situation) would use my "checkbox filtering with memory" is to check off almost every category except Fremantle and N900 and Off Topic. From the point of view of someone interested primarily in the pre-N900 era of Maemo devices, that would clear out the vast amount of irrelevant threads and let us (a) way more efficiently see what we care about and (b) feel like we still have a home here.

Go through New Posts and count what percentage of threads that would eliminate -- its a huge percentage. It's not a perfect solution, but it would truly be a giant step; indeed, although imperfect, it would be sufficient.

I also know there would be threads that are in the "Applications Forum" or "Multimedia Forum" that I wish I could get omitted, but would show up despite the filter because of the deficiency in the organization of the Categories and Sub-Categories ("Forums"). Yes, they need to be re-organized. But that need does not mean the filter-with-memory solution wouldn't be a huge help; and there is no reason for that need to delay implementation of a New Posts filtering system.

(BTW, now and then I would look through N900 and Off Topic posts, due to general interest. The N900 isn't for me, but I do care about future Maemo development. I just don't want to be forced to go through it all the time.)

EDIT: I also want to point out that Solution #1 does nothing to hurt N900 users -- and would, in fact, help them, too, by letting them filter out Categories they don't always care about. I hope that N900 users will vote for Solution #1 also as a sort of support for Minority Rights on the forum! We few N8x0/770 users that still frequent the forum really need it! Be kind!

Texrat

12-17-2009, 01:04 AM

GeraldKo

12-17-2009, 02:01 AM

Gerald, how soon you forgot what I also said about breaking solutions into manageable chunks.

For the life of me I don't know why you would think I ever suggested all solutions need to be implemented simultaneously, when for the entire existence of Brainstorm I have advocated the opposite.

Let the overall solution building run a while-- but that in no way implies easy ones can't be implemented while deeper discussion progresses.

I really feel your tirade at me is inappropriate and unfair, to say the least.

Sorry. I guess you're right. No offense meant. And, in addition to my button-click Thanks! for setting up the Brainstorm, Thanks Again.

I do feel like I have a sense of urgency that, particularly on the earlier thread, you and fatalsaint don't share. I look around and say to myself, "What's become of penguinbait?" "What's become of ioan?" I've heard from lm2 that he's bailing because it's all N900 all the time. Bunanson was of that mind (a little more complex than that, but it was a core part) until he opted for an N900. I've heard from others and read other posts to that effect. So I think there's irreversible disintegration going on, which I think likely already has been fatal for a viable N8x0 community. So when I read a post that sounds unduly patient, it triggers a frustration reaction.

I've been arguing for some way simply to create a haven for N8x0 users within talk.maemo.org for over a month. I feel it's urgent. When you "play devil's advocate" or bring in all kinds of other problems, I regard it as an obstacle that delays something that needs to be done yesterday. So when you say, "this is going to take a while," there's a button in me that gets pushed. Or we could say a trigger that gets pulled. And insofar as you took a bullet as a result, I apologize.

Now what can we do to get this implemented soon?

Texrat

12-17-2009, 02:36 AM

It's cool. I was just surprised.

Reggie is the one to answer about small modifications-- I have no clue.

And FYI: I changed the Brainstorm title, switching out "redesign" for "improvements". Broader coverage. ;)

hypoxic

12-18-2009, 02:39 AM

<aside>
What is being said about n8XX devices is what i've felt for a long while with my n770. I now have the new hotness with an n900, but I don't think thats any reason to abandon the old working hardware. part of the reason i haven't reflashed my n700 after mucking around w it so much is that i'm worried about repos and such just not being there.
</aside>

I think the tagging and categories can run in separate tracks and could even be developed separately as long as you don't build in conflicting calls, etc.

Below is my first crack at the tagging portion also added to Brainstorm - waiting for it to complete saving...

Threads can be tagged by any user

Any user can create Tags

Tagging is not anonymous - Any user Tagging a thread is listed next to the tag in the thread - this prevents unhelpful tags being added w/o some way to address unhelpful posting behavior

Tags can be added or removed dynamically via the search results UI - similar to how some shopping sites allow you to narrow down or broaden your choices based on criteria

This would allow users to customize content on things like n900 Browsers Text, and as long as either the thread starter or people reading the thread had tagged it appropriately should be able to find what they are looking for.

I imagine there could also be a mix of tags and search terms, but as was said above, tiny chunks that can be executed on efficiently and effectively.

hth

silvermountain

12-18-2009, 04:26 AM

fatalsaint

12-18-2009, 11:29 AM

Silvermountain, That was entirely unnecessary. Texrat is the one that *created* this thread and the brainstorm to get the processing moving on this subject.

A subject that obviously you care so much about as to come make a completely useless 1-line post, and manage to insult someone trying to help "your cause" in that "one line".

If all you wanted to do was a "+1", you could have done that with a Thumbs Up on the brainstorm and been done with it. Texrat has been far more helpful with this discussion and project than you have, as it is, and even Gerald apologized for his slight over-reaction and all is fine between the two. Gerald is passionate, which is understood - however you are just argumentative, and unhelpful.

Unless you have something that actually pertains to the discussion at hand, please refrain from hitting the "post" button. Go flame somewhere else.

Texrat

12-18-2009, 11:36 AM

I support Gerald and would personally prefer that Texrat steps out of this discussion.

Kindly read my signature, thanks. You'd benefit by reading Gerald's post after mine as well.

And as fatalsaint said, that sort of "contribution" is not welcome. Troll elsewhere.

GeraldKo

12-18-2009, 05:53 PM

Silvermountain, I appreciate your supporting the quick establishment of some haven for N8x0 users, which is, I suppose, what you mean about supporting me. I wish I had responded to your post before others, since I don't want you to feel "piled on," but Texrat and I aren't trying to have a fight.

In fact, you can look at his contributions this way: This too-late-begun campaign to save the forum for N8x0/770 users would be even more anemic were it not for Texrat posting on these threads! :) At the very least, his posts recycle the issue in New Posts where people may give it some attention! ;)

(To be less tongue-in-cheek, Texrat and fatalsaint have also pushed me to better articulate what I would like to see done.)

So, Texrat and Silvermountain, both of you stick around.

wesgreen

12-18-2009, 07:40 PM

there's a lesson in this somewhere: silvermountain losing his cool shows what having to scroll through page after page of irrelevant threads can do to an intelligent human being!

DaveP1

12-19-2009, 04:37 PM

Let me ask a question about a possible palliative.

The current New Posts uses "search.php?do=getnew" (according to the URL) while the Advanced Search page is labeled "http://talk.maemo.org/search.php" and it allows me to store search options.

Is it possible to have the getnew function use the stored search options?

If so, I could define forums or tags there.

fatalsaint

12-19-2009, 04:53 PM

Theoretically yes. With my knowledge of PHP it should very much be possible to integrate the saved search preferences into getnew. I've never looked at vBulletin (I think that's what drives the forum?) code before to know how easy it would be to implement, however.

Bad coding could make it really difficult... good programming should make it quite simple. Definitely need Reggie's input on that one.

GeraldKo

12-20-2009, 12:11 AM

I PM'd Reggie asking him to join this thread.

Theoretically yes. With my knowledge of PHP it should very much be possible to integrate the saved search preferences into getnew. I've never looked at vBulletin (I think that's what drives the forum?) code before to know how easy it would be to implement, however.

Bad coding could make it really difficult... good programming should make it quite simple. Definitely need Reggie's input on that one.

GeraldKo

12-20-2009, 12:21 AM

fatalsaint, there is something I don'tunderstand in your Solution #4. You say,

This structure, along with an ability to select top-level categories to show in the "New Posts" search will allow users to go directly to a software or OS of their choice and see only the software or OS that they want ...

Why only 'top-level'? If no reason, please edit it out. Otherwise, please explain what you mean by top-level.

fatalsaint

12-20-2009, 12:26 AM

When I drafted it I have envisioned that someone could select, say, Maemo 5 in OS and N900 in Hardware.

I guess technically that's "mid-level"... but I didn't see a need for there to be selectable boxes next to, say, "games" under "maemo 5" so that you see only new posts from there.

I suppose it could be removed, for the sole purpose of customization and granularity.

fatalsaint

12-20-2009, 12:30 AM

This work better?

This structure, along with an ability to select individual categories to show in the "New Posts" search

GeraldKo

12-20-2009, 10:41 AM

This work better?

Yes, thanks.

Another issue: the layout of categories doesn't seem to allow for threads about an OS itself; or, rather, doesn't seem to provide a good category to place such a thread.

E.g., existing threads: "Circular zoom doesn't work;" "Guide: Syncing Maemo 5 with a Mac;" "Resetting lock code."

fatalsaint

12-20-2009, 02:26 PM

They would go under the parent OS category.. not a sub-category.

GeraldKo

12-20-2009, 06:29 PM

They would go under the parent OS category.. not a sub-category.

I think it would be better if each thread ended within a specific sub-category. For one, it seems to me that it would be less ambiguous. Secondly, if, for example, someone wanted to search for everything in "Operating System (Software): OS2008 / Maemo 4 / Chinook - Diablo" other than Games (but including the OS itself, Applications, Multimedia, and Development), he couldn't do it if checking off "Operating System (Software): OS2008 / Maemo 4 / Chinook - Diablo" included all the categories under it. If checking it off didn't automatically include those categories, it would be weird.

It seems clearer to me to have an additional sub-category for "The OS itself" or "OS and Design" or something worded better than those, under each of the OSes.

fatalsaint

12-20-2009, 08:52 PM

Well.. I would think that by default when you deselect a top-level category, then it's sub-categories will de-select. However there is nothing preventing a user from then selecting a sub-category only. Or the other way around. If you don't care about games you would select OS2008 / Maemo 4 / Chinook - Diablo, and then De-select "games" underneath.

At least.. that was my thought. It didn't seem confusing to me. If we need to add another category to it then ok.. but we don't want to go too overboard - the idea is for the structure to be as simple as possible.. KISS-style. So whatever way to make it more along those lines I'm up for. It would be nice if we had a little more input from some more people.

fatalsaint

12-20-2009, 08:58 PM

Definitely not the correct thread. You're going to want to go post that under OS / Platform, or under Software -> Applications, or Software -> Design.

The fact that you could post that in 3 different categories... is the point of this thread to try and clear that up ;).

RevdKathy

12-21-2009, 04:10 AM

Nothing useful to contribute to this except a sense of urgency. The word is that n900 will be sold in general phone shops in the UK as of Boxing day - which will bring a whole second wave of new owners (with all the same questions) now that the early adopters have started to settle down.

For the sake of the sanity of the older tablet users, can we get this done asap, please? We don't want to lose any more people who don't feel this is 'their' place any more.

(And on behalf of us n900bs, I'm sorry!)

smegheadz

12-21-2009, 04:54 AM

with the addition of QT next year applications will be multiplatform capable.

i like the idea of having applications not as a sub category to the OS,
reason being is that their may be multiple platforms supported. having an OS specific sub category in applications would be cleaner. then you can have general application posts and specific application posts. also means if there is something that is relevant to multiple platforms in an application the poster doesn't have to make multiple posts but can put it in the main applications category.

fatalsaint

12-21-2009, 05:08 AM

That doesn't really solve much. If we have say:

Software/Applications
-Maemo 5
-Maemo 4
-Old Crap

And I write a piece of software that works with both Maemo 5 and Maemo 4 but not Old Crap, I still have to make separate posts within the categories for them. I can't just put the application in "Software/Applications" because that would also imply support for "Old Crap".

The reason I choose the OS route is because even though one application will support multiple operating systems.. the problems and bugs related to the applications will vary greatly based on the Operating System they are running on. Two people running Maemo 5 will have a much greater chance of having similar problems than Two people running Maemo 5 and Maemo 4, for example.

However, due to the fact that any application could support any combination of operating system, library, hardware, etc.. is one of the hurdles of this type of discussion. In such a multi-dimensional area there will never be a 100% perfect solution.

Your solution does have Merit, of course, and though I don't think it solves the problem you've specifically mentioned - others may prefer it like you. Draft up a good layout of your vision and make a Solution at the Brainstorm for it.. at this point that's what we've got.

As far as a process to speed all this up for the N8x0 guys (which I guess technically includes me) - I have no idea how we're to do that.

ETA: Your solution is very similar to Solution #2, just in his solution he's using Tags - instead of categories. So you could vote his up instead of creating your own, if you prefer.

smegheadz

12-21-2009, 12:08 PM

@fatalsaint

i agree with what you say. There is no 100% solution as it's mainly based on user preference. I decided not to create another solution as there are already many different solutions and taking a leaf out of some and others would work.

i don't think there's a solution for reading my mind and doing things for me :P which would be my 100% solution, skynet on happy pill's FTW

Texrat

12-21-2009, 01:03 PM

Ah, the multidimensional aspect strikes again!

kryptoniankid17

12-21-2009, 01:56 PM

maybe some type of im. Or the ability to put your im id in your profile

sjgadsby

12-21-2009, 02:10 PM

...the ability to put your im id in your profile

Talk profiles have fields for AIM, ICQ, MSN, Skype, and Y!M. maemo.org profiles have fields for AIM, Jabber, and MSN as well as IRC.

fatalsaint

12-21-2009, 03:06 PM

i don't think there's a solution for reading my mind and doing things for me :P which would be my 100% solution, skynet on happy pill's FTW

I'm all for this.... Where's Reggie... lets get him working on an AI (actual intelligence) forum :D.

smegheadz

12-21-2009, 03:25 PM

I'm all for this.... Where's Reggie... lets get him working on an AI (actual intelligence) forum :D.

you know it's not a bad idea when ya think about it. it's something like google would do except not use it to take over the world.
log user data and display most relavent information based on what they look at the most and search for on the forums. Have those subjects and tags etc on the side and allow the user to delete them from their interests. i might be interested in n900 rebooting bug if i have it and then not interested when it's fixed. so those threads are lower down with the rest of the stuff i'm not that interested in yet.

fatalsaint

12-21-2009, 03:29 PM

you know it's not a bad idea when ya think about it. it's something like google would do except not use it to take over the world.
log user data and display most relavent information based on what they look at the most and search for on the forums. Have those subjects and tags etc on the side and allow the user to delete them from their interests. i might be interested in n900 rebooting bug if i have it and then not interested when it's fixed. so those threads are lower down with the rest of the stuff i'm not that interested in yet.

Sure.. the type of thing we're talking about can be emulated quite realistically enough (not SkyNet, not yet anyway) - but the amount of work we're talking about at this point is so astronomical that I certainly wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a complete relational and dynamic system; including some kind of weighted search system, a memory, a similarity calculator, keyword matching... etc.

Would be cool though ;). All you do is come on and hit "new posts" and your entire search history, including time spent reading/replying to threads, is taken into account and every single posts is analyzed in a "like/dislike" process and it hides the ones it determines you have no interest in. The forum of tomorrow, today! :cool:

smegheadz

12-21-2009, 03:43 PM

Sure.. the type of thing we're talking about can be emulated quite realistically enough (not SkyNet, not yet anyway) - but the amount of work we're talking about at this point is so astronomical that I certainly wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a complete relational and dynamic system; including some kind of weighted search system, a memory, a similarity calculator, keyword matching... etc.

Would be cool though ;). All you do is come on and hit "new posts" and your entire search history, including time spent reading/replying to threads, is taken into account and every single posts is analyzed in a "like/dislike" process and it hides the ones it determines you have no interest in. The forum of tomorrow, today! :cool:

can you imagine the trolls lists:D

flame flame flame! troll troll, search for iphone eats babies etc hahaha

kryptoniankid17

12-21-2009, 04:46 PM

Talk profiles have fields for AIM, ICQ, MSN, Skype, and Y!M. maemo.org profiles have fields for AIM, Jabber, and MSN as well as IRC.

Didnt mean to say the last part. What i meant was one standerd im proticol for the site .

Texrat

12-22-2009, 01:49 PM

New solution added: Solution #8: Add filtering options based on other metadata not mentioned in Solution1

Please review and vote!

http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/proposed_talk_forum_redesign_for_2010/?solution=add_filtering_options_based_on_other_met adata_not_mentioned_in_solution1

Texrat

12-22-2009, 02:01 PM

Didnt mean to say the last part. What i meant was one standerd im proticol for the site .

I don't agree with imposing a single standard, but I would like to see a default selected, as well as preferred client listed.

GeraldKo

12-22-2009, 02:31 PM

Texrat's Solution #8 sounds fine to me, if that's how people want an additional filter to work, but ...

I'm disturbed that in 35 minutes (or less), Solution #8 has acquired as many Thumbs-Ups as Solution #1 has acquired after a week.* Until I'm corrected, I infer that there are plenty of very unsympathetic N900 users following this Brainstorm. I'm surprised and disappointed that none of them found it worth voting for Solution #1 as a fair and painless way for them to help maintain the utility of this forum for N810/N800/770 users. Had I been an N900-using forum member, I'd have voted for Solution #1 to help them. (Heck, I'd have voted for it to eliminate other categories I didn't want also; but even besides that, I'd have done it out of goodwill.)

*And none of the other Solutions #2 through #7 had more than #1, either.

Texrat

12-22-2009, 02:32 PM

Gerald, I'm pretty sure Solution #8 got so many votes so quickly due to product placement-- I embedded a link into today's molotov cocktail thread. ;)

It's all about advertising... :D

GeraldKo

12-22-2009, 02:40 PM

Gerald, I'm pretty sure Solution #8 got so many votes so quickly due to product placement-- I embedded a link into today's molotov cocktail thread. ;)

It's all about advertising... :D

Then please do me a favor and advertise to them to support specifically Solution #1 also in order to give us N8x0 users a break!

Texrat

12-22-2009, 02:44 PM

Gerald... what stops you from stumping for your solution? Feel free to spread the word! Put it in your signature! Spam it from the rooftops! ;)

Texrat

12-22-2009, 02:57 PM

Just an FYI regarding technicalities of proposals...

I for one would prefer we avoid a lot of customization, mainly for Reggie's sake as well as ease of maintenance. Future vBulletin upgrades risk breaking custom solutions.

If functionality we request is not avalaible out of the box with vBulletin, but needs to be implemented using it, then IMO it makes better sense to push proposals to that development team.

OrangeBox

12-22-2009, 03:04 PM

When OrangeBox posts direct it to /dev/null

GeraldKo

12-22-2009, 03:26 PM

Gerald... what stops you from stumping for your solution? Feel free to spread the word! Put it in your signature! Spam it from the rooftops! ;)

Only on this thread, until this post, have I not been using my signature. :)

(OTOH, I'm not getting on lots of "molotov cocktail" threads because I don't really want to add to them; and I'm not getting on useful N900 threads since I don't have much to add; and so all my stumping is to the little remnant that's left of N8x0/770 users, and we're shrinking/dying breed!)

(You're old enough, I think, Texrat, to enjoy the link I have for "Help Save This Forum ... " :) )

slartibart

12-22-2009, 03:35 PM

Only on this thread, until this post, have I not been using my signature. :)

(OTOH, I'm not getting on lots of "molotov cocktail" threads because I don't really want to add to them; and I'm not getting on useful N900 threads since I don't have much to add; and so all my stumping is to the little remnant that's left of N8x0/770 users, and we're shrinking/dying breed!)

(You're old enough, I think, Texrat, to enjoy the link I have for "Help Save This Forum ... " :) )

Yeah I would vote for #1 as it's the best option but registering was a pain and after 5 mins I gave up.

fatalsaint

12-22-2009, 03:40 PM

I'm curious. I noticed someone "down voted" every solution except the 2 solutions they like. I personally didn't think a "down" vote was warranted unless it was actually like a negative or "bad" idea. Merely an Up Vote for the one you like seemed the better solution to me... whats the etiquette of brainstorm??? Should I go down vote all the ones that I didn't pick? Or did someone actually think my idea sucked so bad as to warrant a negative mark?

If the latter... I would really appreciate you coming and telling me *why* it's such a bad idea.

Texrat

12-22-2009, 03:50 PM

I agree fatalsaint. I wish we could require that everyone who downvotes to add a reason why.

Oops... that would be an intrusive law. :p :D

fatalsaint

12-22-2009, 03:52 PM

I agree fatalsaint. I wish we could require that everyone who downvotes to add a reasoon why.

Oops... that would be an intrusive law. :p :D

There really needs to be a ROFL smiley on this forums.

I love you Tex :D

GeraldKo

12-22-2009, 03:54 PM

Or I wonder if votes should be non-anonymous. (Actually, I'm not sure; are they?)

fatalsaint

12-22-2009, 04:03 PM

That is also a system I would support. I would add BOTH the thread star rating and the brainstorm need to be non-anonymous. I actually said this in another thread.. but I don't think people should have the ability to "bad" talk (and yes, voting negative on someone IS bad talking them) without having the guts to say so out loud - but I don't want people to not vote for my solution because they disagree with me here (and I know a lot of people feel more comfortable hiding behind a blanket).

I dunno... Tex - Brainstorm mod.. is it "cluttering" Brainstorm if I make a second proposal that says : Everything in Solution #4 + Non-anonymous brainstorm voting and thread stars? Plus.. I want to go so far as to allow individual posts to have a "Dislike" button right by the Thanks button that operates in exactly the same way. Maybe thats too argumentative?

wesgreen

12-22-2009, 04:04 PM

[QUOTE=GeraldKo;437856]Texrat's Solution #8 sounds fine to me, if that's how people want an additional filter to work, but ...

I'm disturbed that in 35 minutes (or less), Solution #8 has acquired as many Thumbs-Ups as Solution #1 has acquired after a week.*

what goes around comes around... maybe these guys are just too shortsighted to see they're shooting themselves in the foot. next year they could be the ones asking for similar changes. meanwhile some great contributors to maemo, who would maybe have stuck around for the next tablet from nokia, investigate alternatives. of course then there are others like me who still have so much to learn from the archives here that we're harder to get rid of...anyway, thanks a lot to geraldko, texrat and fatalsaint.

Texrat

12-22-2009, 04:07 PM

I dunno... Tex - Brainstorm mod.. is it "cluttering" Brainstorm if I make a second proposal that says : Everything in Solution #4 + Non-anonymous brainstorm voting and thread stars? Plus.. I want to go so far as to allow individual posts to have a "Dislike" button right by the Thanks button that operates in exactly the same way. Maybe thats too argumentative?

I'll just say this: you're getting in the area of why I like high-level Brainstorms with many fine, detailed Solutions... ;)

fatalsaint

12-22-2009, 04:11 PM

I'll just say this: you're getting in the area of why I like high-level Brainstorms with many fine, detailed Solutions... ;)

So.. if I am interpreting you correctly... You would actually prefer it that way? Instead of adding it to my proposal as a "all in one" solution.. breaking it out like this and adding separate ideas into separate solutions (thus allowing people just to vote for the part of the idea they like).. is in your opinion, a better way?

Seriously.. I know nothing about Brainstorm as it's new and I've been gone... I learned just enough to figure out that god-awful mess of a registration process just to propose my solution for votes..

If it were you - using this as an example, would you create 4 separate solutions, one for each idea (dislike button, non-anon stars, non-anon brainstorm) - or would you group them by similar ideas? (main idea, non-anon ideas)?

Texrat

12-22-2009, 04:16 PM

I prefer them split as finely as practical/possible.

The dilemma, then, is getting votes. But seriously, 10 votes per solution should not be difficult to achieve in a forum with hundreds of daily active members. That we do find it difficult points to a flaw in the implementation (eg, sign-on) rather than core idea. But as I showed Gerald, marketing helps overcome even that. ;)

GeraldKo

12-22-2009, 04:17 PM

I think your categorization layout is one solution. To me the others are independent. We learn more about what people want from voting on them independently. Also, let's say I liked one of your ideas and not another -- if they were combined, how would I vote?

GeraldKo

12-22-2009, 04:19 PM

Also, I'd like Roger to be able to look at the various solutions and say, "Yeah, I can easily do A and L but the others, hmm, I don't know," and then just go do A and L, so long as A and L aren't inherently dependent on the others.

fatalsaint

12-22-2009, 07:22 PM

Well I made the solutions. Feel free to vote for them up or down... I would like feedback if you vote down, though. But that's merely a request.

fatalsaint

12-22-2009, 09:43 PM

I just have to say.. it does not surprise me to see all three of my new solutions "Thumbed Down".. and yet, no more posts in here ;).

wesgreen

12-22-2009, 10:14 PM

just bumping up the link for voting:
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/proposed_talk_forum_redesign_for_2010/

GeraldKo

12-23-2009, 01:37 AM

Yup, my two each have one Thumbs-Down now, also; and I, too, would really like to know why. Frankly, I can't imagine why anybody would vote down Solution #1. For Solution #3, it's at least comprehensible to me that someone might prefer a different solution and therefor stick it to that one. But Solution #1? I can't see any reason anyone would vote it down except out of a sort of spite akin to the spirit of vandalism.

So whoever you are, I, too, would like to hear from you as to why.

Texrat

12-23-2009, 01:46 AM

I really, really hope it isn't spite. But yeah, in all seriousness, I wish people would explain their votes either way.

fatalsaint

12-23-2009, 01:51 AM

Well, my two solutions to help alleviate this type of thing - haven't been very well received. They quickly received the same "1 down" vote.

Oh well.. life goes on. I ignore votes from people who are, evidently, ashamed of their vote.

Whats next Tex? Do we just let the brainstorm sit there for all eternity? Is there a magical number of "plus" votes we need to achieve? Whats kind of.. "the process".. type of thing.

RevdKathy

12-23-2009, 04:05 AM

I've refrained from voting, and tried to stay out of this thread, because as a n900b I'm part of the problem. But I do desperately want a solution. T.m.o. has to be big enough for all of us. Please, please find the solution that will suit the tablet-users best, and implement it.

slartibart

12-23-2009, 04:38 AM

RevdKathy

12-23-2009, 05:38 AM

GeraldKo

12-23-2009, 07:17 AM

Explaining why I, and maybe a number of others, have chosen not to vote. Since these things depend on a quantity of votes, it looks churlish to have not voted (though less churlish than to anti-vote, I suppose).

Some of us have not voted not because we don't care, but because ultimately this solution doesn't need to work for us - it has to work for the people who are feeling the pain.

Kathy (and like-minded non-voters), I don't believe that's a valid reason not to vote. Sometimes a poll is just about whether you personally prefer something, and voting on what someone else prefers, improperly skews the results. But sometimes a poll is about what should be; and, at least for Solution #1 (and probably others to an extent), this is that sort of poll.

The position you stated above is akin to not voting for gay rights or for religious freedom for a small sect, on the ground that you aren't, respectively, gay or a member of that sect. (I apologize to gays and other minorities of much greater significance and persecution than N8X0 users for this trivialization!) You can believe the state of things ought to be better for some other persons or group, and then lend your effort to make it so on their behalf. (In contrast, by your logic, how could men ever have voted for women's suffrage?)

So I think you should vote.

fatalsaint

12-23-2009, 11:32 AM

In a different light than what Gerald said... Kathy this affects all users. If a solution and a complete forum re-org takes place, this will also take place in the areas where the N900 software and applications are seen. (especially with the solutions 2-7ish, solution 1, and 8+ are more very specific solutions that may not affect all users.)

So the t.m.o you know now will have changed, and if it's to a solution that is less N900 friendly than the current setup than I see you being affected a great deal.

So.. even for entirely selfish reasons.. you should vote ;).

Texrat

12-23-2009, 11:40 AM

Some of us have not voted not because we don't care, but because ultimately this solution doesn't need to work for us - it has to work for the people who are feeling the pain.

Are you being specific to one or more of the current solutions? Could it be the solution you want has not been created yet?

Texrat

12-23-2009, 11:46 AM

Whats next Tex? Do we just let the brainstorm sit there for all eternity? Is there a magical number of "plus" votes we need to achieve? Whats kind of.. "the process".. type of thing.

The rule of thumb was that 10 votes would trigger action, but I've acted on solutions with less when it was something I could implement (eg Maemo Greeters). The voting is more for solutions that require extra resources.

The issue here is that Reggie is the conduit and likely responsible party for most of the desired action here and I see no response from him yet on the subject.

Reggie

12-23-2009, 11:59 AM

Sorry to chime in here late.

Another thing we can do is implement prefixes. vBulletin has a feature that lets you optionally (or required to) select a Prefix when creating a thread. This prefix will then be appended to the thread title with brackets.

While you cannot search by Prefix, you can however scroll down the page of a forum category, and specify a filter based on a specific Prefix.

We can use a prefixes like:
General
Maemo 6
Maemo 5
OS2008
OS2007
etc...

The system also supports different sets of prefixes per forum if needed.

Texrat

12-23-2009, 12:01 PM

If that's easy to implement, it might be a good start!

Laughing Man

12-23-2009, 12:01 PM

That's similar to Ubuntuforums.org and it works pretty well. Hmm.. it seems the best way to summon Reggie is to use his name in your post.

Texrat

12-23-2009, 12:05 PM

That's similar to Ubuntuforums.org and it works pretty well. Hmm.. it seems the best way to summon Reggie is to use his name in your post.

He's a superhero, and spends the day in his leather lounger watching crime TV while awaiting The Call. His mind is so attuned to the interwebs that merely typing his name triggers a transformation so that he can actually travel down the tubes to where his name was entered.

sjgadsby

12-23-2009, 12:25 PM

He's a superhero, and spends the day in his leather lounger watching crime TV while awaiting The Call. His mind is so attuned to the interwebs that merely typing his name triggers a transformation so that he can actually travel down the tubes to where his name was entered.

He's better than Kibo!

RevdKathy

12-23-2009, 03:49 PM

Are you being specific to one or more of the current solutions? Could it be the solution you want has not been created yet?

To be absolutely honest, I got confused by all the possible alternatives, variants and combinations. If I could vote for 'change' without being specific what, I'd be happy.

The position you stated above is akin to not voting for gay rights or for religious freedom for a small sect, on the ground that you aren't, respectively, gay or a member of that sect. (I apologize to gays and other minorities of much greater significance and persecution than N8X0 users for this trivialization!) You can believe the state of things ought to be better for some other persons or group, and then lend your effort to make it so on their behalf. (In contrast, by your logic, how could men ever have voted for women's suffrage?)

So I think you should vote.

To follow the analogy, women's suffrage was a nice, clear-cut issue: women wanted the vote. 'Rights' for a minority group is a nearer analogy, since the question of exactly what rights are felt to be missing is something only the oppresed group can express. I can champion the cause in a non-specific way, but can only campaign/vote for specific solutions if someone can show me what is needed. At this point in this exercise, the minority is determining what they feel will most meet their need. Tell me what to vote for, and I'll vote. ;)

Certainly if the outcome will have a detrimental effect on n900bs I should be concerned, but nothing I have seen so far suggests that it will be - on the contrary, happy tablet users will make for a happier forum.

GeraldKo

12-23-2009, 08:12 PM

I can champion the cause in a non-specific way, but can only campaign/vote for specific solutions if someone can show me what is needed. At this point in this exercise, the minority is determining what they feel will most meet their need. Tell me what to vote for, and I'll vote. ;)

Certainly if the outcome will have a detrimental effect on n900bs I should be concerned, but nothing I have seen so far suggests that it will be - on the contrary, happy tablet users will make for a happier forum.

This Brainstorm is not specifically for we oppressed legacy-Tablet users. There are all kinds of solutions being offered for all kinds of forum issues, not only for "minority" problems. But Solution #1 it is the most important for this little not-so-important oppressed minority, and it does not impact any of the other Solutions. (Solution #1 is also expressly included in at least Solutions #4 and #8.) It's the key for the remaining N8x0/770 users on this forum since it would let us go through the New Posts without having to view the N900 and Fremantle posts, which make up the vast bulk of threads. (At this point, I personally would also use it to exclude the Competitors and Off Topic from the New Posts that I view.) The way things are currently, without being able to eliminate Categories from New Posts, it is very hard to skim through and find the posts that are relevant to us.

Solution #1 also has zero negative impact on N900 users' use of the forum. At worst, it would take some time that the webmaster could possibly put to something you would find more constructive for your own purposes. But it would in no way hurt the functionality of the forum for you. In fact, if you're ever in a hurry, it would likewise let you eliminate categories from New Posts that you don't want to view at that time, like "Competitors," which is generally just pissing matches between N900 aficionados and fans of the iPhone or Android.

So, I still think you should cast your vote at least for Solution #1 (and maybe for some of the others). Thanks for having responded intelligently and directly on the issue. I appreciate it.

GeraldKo

12-27-2009, 10:34 PM

Reggie, is Solution #1 something you can implement or not? Will you or won't you? Or is there some step required still to officially move forward?

fatalsaint

12-28-2009, 01:58 AM

Reggie, is Solution #1 something you can implement or not? Will you or won't you? Or is there some step required still to officially move forward?

Did you see Reggie's post a page back?? Is what he is referring a temporary solution you could live with?

That is probably the easiest solution for Reggie to implement since it's already apart of the forum software and it appears to address at least the most immediate need that you are after.

GeraldKo

12-28-2009, 05:00 AM

Yes, I read it, and I should have replied that I need further explanation because I'm not sure what this means: "you can however scroll down the page of a forum category, and specify a filter based on a specific Prefix."

It doesn't sound good. What I care about is just filtered New Posts. I'm not sure, but I don't think Reggie's solution addresses that.

Reggie's Prefix approach seems to me more a response to the "multi-dimensionality problem" -- a sort of substitute for tags.

Reggie also calls it "another thing we can do," which at least implies the feasibility of other solutions, hopefully including #1.

Also, Reggie's solution requires appending a Prefix to every existing thread. If Solution #1 is doable, it's actually much easier. As explained in Post #17, it requires merely the combining of two features that the forum already employs: memorable category-filters (like Advanced Search already has) added to the exactly-as-it-already-is New Posts function.

GeraldKo

12-28-2009, 02:54 PM

Reggie, is Solution #1 something you can implement or not? Will you or won't you? Or is there some step required still to officially move forward?

Texrat

12-28-2009, 10:28 PM

Another (easy?) solution added, from an earlier comment elsewhere:

If possible, separate the major sections into tabbed pages to shorten the distance readers have to scroll down.

Based on current layout, tab headers would be:

Talk | Software | OS/Platform | Devices (etc)

Although I would order them as follows:

Devices | OS/Platform | Software | Talk

http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/proposed_talk_forum_redesign_for_2010/?solution=turn_vertical_layout_into_tabbed_layout

GeraldKo

12-29-2009, 12:48 AM

"Solution #13: Add FAQ and/or threads that have successfully solved issues to talk side-bar" strikes me as a very good idea, but I could use more elaboration or links to examples elsewhere, to help me visualize it.

GeraldKo

01-05-2010, 04:35 PM

I PM'd Reggie about this last week. No response.

It's a reasonable request: I WANT TO BE ABLE TO CALL UP NEW POSTS WITH SOME CATEGORIES FILTERED OUT. The forum has been hell for N8x0/770 users without that functionality.

So I'll ask Reggie again:

Reggie, is Solution #1 something you can implement or not? Will you or won't you? Or is there some step required still to officially move forward?

ArnimS

01-07-2010, 06:19 AM

I really love the dark classic look, and almost everything about the forums. It is one of my favorite forums, from a usability and design perspective. My feature wish is probably to mark threads as 'uninteresting to me'.

I really hope it doesn't get 'improved' too much!

Reggie

01-11-2010, 10:37 AM

fatalsaint

01-11-2010, 11:16 AM

If we implement solution 4 or 6 however, there will be a massive move of older threads to bring them to the correct platform, under the same category. Although tedious, it can be done.

Yeah.. and this is why I was hoping for a little more discussion and ideas. I don't want to have to revisit this in another 6 months and constantly be making you forum mods do the same work over and over. But I can understand some people being overly frustrated ATM with being unable to find what interests them.

#6 seems, to me, a little less dynamic... it already has one merger evident (N800/N810) because the two devices run the same OS's.. should this happen again it requires a category change - not that that's that big of a deal. If two different devices run one same OS, but can also each run a different OS, as another example (although more unlikely), wouldn't be taken into account.

I'm sure either option would allow people to better see what they want to see. But so far #6 and #4 are tied in the votes.. how would we proceed on those?

GeraldKo

01-11-2010, 06:52 PM

My inclination here is, if we really want to do this right, we should do this correct asap, and not just patch things up.

Solution #4 by fatalsaint or #6 by Dave I think are the best ones as they lets you target the the specific platform on any discussion. Plus, searching will be easier since it is easier to filter a search based on a specific platform (parent forum category).

If we implement solution 4 or 6 however, there will be a massive move of older threads to bring them to the correct platform, under the same category. Although tedious, it can be done.

If Solution #1 can be done, and eventually will be done, why not do it first and now? It seems to me that the functionality of Solution #1 (enabling the filtering of New Posts) is completely independent of Solutions #4 or #6 (or any of the other solutions), yet it would immediately greatly help some people, specifically including N8x0/770 users.

Reggie

01-11-2010, 07:13 PM

If Solution #1 can be done, and eventually will be done, why not do it first and now?

This might not be done since this means changing the underlying code of the forum system and not just templates. I am against changing code unless really necessary since it makes it really difficult to upgrade the forum to the latest version.

If the forum categories is properly constructed, you can easily just go to the parent category, and do a search there, encompassing all the child forum categories, without even going to the 'advanced search' page.

Here's an example. In this case, if you are in the Software parent category, the 'Search this Forum' option will automatically search all its children categories.
http://img.skitch.com/20100111-xfta57q4uuqhh5hyijqqff3npj.jpg

GeraldKo

01-12-2010, 04:24 PM

This might not be done since this means changing the underlying code of the forum system and not just templates. I am against changing code unless really necessary since it makes it really difficult to upgrade the forum to the latest version.

If the forum categories is properly constructed, you can easily just go to the parent category, and do a search there, encompassing all the child forum categories, without even going to the 'advanced search' page.

Here's an example. In this case, if you are in the Software parent category, the 'Search this Forum' option will automatically search all its children categories.
http://img.skitch.com/20100111-xfta57q4uuqhh5hyijqqff3npj.jpg

Well, if it's a matter of changing the underlying code, I see why it's not happening. Thanks for letting me know.

For me, it has never been a matter of Searching (as in results you get from entering terms in the Search Box) but about New Posts. What you're saying I can do by searching within a Software parent has always been possible through Advanced Search. The problem is that you can't search for a null field in Advanced Posts.

Hence, without the requested change (Solution #1) being made, what I would have to do to see all New Posts without drowning in N900/Maemo5 posts, is:

Open each Category in which I'm interested, one-by-one, so as to see all the New Posts in each such category.

I can't actually make any use of "Parent Categories" for finding new posts either, since, for example, if I click on Software, I'm not shown any posts at all, just subcategory titles.

This means that to review new posts comprehensively, in the categories I care about, without drowning in N900/Maemo5/OffTopic threads, I have to independently, one-at-a-time open:

General
Brainstorm
Community
Applications
Multimedia
Design
OS2008 / Maemo 4 / Chinook - Diablo
Development
Alternatives
Nokia N810
Nokia N800
Nokia 770
Accessories
and Competitors.

Additionally, I have to keep track of the last time I looked at the Category since (without the functionality built into New Posts) there is nothing that will announce, "The threads below have not been updated since your last visit but still contain unread posts."

It's a big pain in the neck, and will probably mean I won't be using the forum much anymore ... or rather, it means I'll use it when I know what I need and can search for my answer or post a question about it; but I won't be generally keeping up with the platform and I won't be scanning the forum to help other users who have problems.

I've liked providing that service -- helping people who have problems for which I have answers -- but I can only provide it to people who are using the older hardware and software; and I'm not going to wade through all the N900 posts to find those occasional N8x0 posts where I may be helpful.

If you could have implemented filterable New Posts, I'd stick around to be helpful. But if you can't because of coding issues, then you can't. I believe lots of other N8x0 people have left because of this problem. The forum can still have limited utility for N8x0/770 users, but it's pretty much the end of it as a community; I believe it could have been saved if New Posts could have been filtered.

Jaffa

01-12-2010, 07:14 PM

It's arguably not just a Maemo <5 vs. Maemo 5 thing. Since the volume of posts has rocketed up, my own workflow (checking New posts) takes a significant chunk of time. The number of useful threads I read hasn't increased though :-(

wesgreen

01-13-2010, 09:59 AM

gerald, thank you very much for all your efforts! at this point forum changes are no longer important to me since the os2008 community that flourished here has pretty much vanished. obviously it was in the way of nokias business model. while this does not bode very well for maemos longterm future, i can't really blame anyone else but myself for this; after all, i was always free to start up my own tablet site/forum, and didn't. let's look at the bright side and be grateful that the archives still exist!

Reggie

01-13-2010, 04:11 PM

For me, it has never been a matter of Searching (as in results you get from entering terms in the Search Box) but about New Posts.

Ok, New Posts for user-specific forums... here's a workaround. I created a custom search that will show the latest posts on all forums that you are subscribed to.

Steps:
Subscribe to each forum you want to follow. To do this, visit a forum that you intend to follow and then click on 'Forum Tools' and hit Subscribe to This Forum'.
http://content.screencast.com/users/rsuplido/folders/Jing/media/4e208be5-9a60-46b7-8f55-a9a6bbaec95d/2010-01-13_1457.png

Select "No email notification" as the Notification Type
http://content.screencast.com/users/rsuplido/folders/Jing/media/02922be6-92a1-42c7-8319-dec354d14451/2010-01-13_1500.png

Do this to all forums you want to subscribe to or follow. Note that you only have to do this once.

Now bookmark the following (note that you need to book mark this exact URL and not the resulting page once you click it):
http://talk.maemo.org/newsub.php
I will be adding this link maybe under the Quick Links at the right once it has been tested well enough.

Results should show up, with forums you have subscribed to listed at the top:
http://content.screencast.com/users/rsuplido/folders/Jing/media/30cfeda9-6736-45f8-98d2-d9cb6218555c/2010-01-13_1507.png

To unsubscribe from a specific forum (you can click on any forum listed from step 5) and perform step 1, but choose 'Unsubscribe from this Forum'
http://content.screencast.com/users/rsuplido/folders/Jing/media/b113542a-99d0-4cfa-9ed1-a6a981270f06/2010-01-13_1509.png

Den in USA

01-14-2010, 01:14 PM

DaveP1

01-14-2010, 02:02 PM

Ok, New Posts for user-specific forums... here's a workaround. I created a custom search that will show the latest posts on all forums that you are subscribed to.

If there's an award for best Talk tip ever, I'd nominate this.

Now if we could just change the Software category to OS specific rather than subject specific, I'd be happy. :D

Okay, happier, I'm just too much of a natural grump to get all the way up to happy. ;)

buurmas

01-14-2010, 03:20 PM

This is great! Thanks a lot Reggie! It looks like it does not conflict with threads I've already subscribed to, which is great. I would personally love to see "Active Topics" replaced with threads from my subscribed-to forums, but that might be harder.

BTW, it just occurred to me that another similar workaround that is already in place is forum-specific RSS feeds. Instead of subscribing to, say, five forums I can create five RSS feeds. Then, instead of going to t.m.o. to look for new posts, I would go to my RSS reader for new posts.

Den in USA

01-14-2010, 05:06 PM

Reggie, I monitor this forum all day while at work. Is there any forum option that would allow me to enable sounds so that whenever there was a screen refresh (a new post) my computer (either N800 or desktop) would output a single chime. ( like when we receive an instant message). ?

Texrat

01-15-2010, 04:15 PM

One thing I would like to see done quickly: more sub-subforums. For starters, expand Community:

Community
- Ask the Council
- Meetups
- Website
- General

Can that be done?

qgil

01-16-2010, 10:57 PM

Is it me the only one thinking that http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/proposed_talk_forum_redesign_for_2010/ has gone out of control? Brainstorm proposals need to be around a concrete proposal.

Now what? Imagine that one of the 21(!) "solutions" is under development. Should we move the whole proposal to In Development and leave a big question mark about all the rest?

Texrat

01-16-2010, 11:04 PM

It is a bit out of control-- but then, that's an expected attribute of the process, which goes:

Forming
Storming
Norming
Performing

You're seeing a hot topic fueled by passionate people, and one idea from one person begetting 3 more from others. Typical Storming phase.

Some solutions are certainly ripe for Norming, and even Performing-- but they are well out of the ability of proposers to implement. They require a champion, and of course Doers.

FYI, the group development process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forming,_storming,_norming_and_performing

qgil

01-16-2010, 11:29 PM

Sure, but the group development process can also be done creating new brainstorm proposals when new ideas appear thanks to previous discussions. Otherwise the brainstorm proposal become bigger, the discussion threads longer and at some point it is difficult to have any focus.

But anyway, at least with this one it's the community alone who decides so I don't need to figure out how to handle the feedback/discussion with the Maemo team. :)

Texrat

01-16-2010, 11:33 PM

I guess I'm a bit confused... I thought it was okay to have multiple solutions per proposal, and we could "pick them off" individually for action. So what if the root proposal takes on numerous solutions? IMO the fewer root proposals (ie, higher problem abstraction) the easier this is to manage. Just look at the overlap we've had!

I'm thinking we may be concerned about different problems...

qgil

01-16-2010, 11:53 PM

Ok, I'll be specific about http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/proposed_talk_forum_redesign_for_2010/

Solutions 1-8 are all about the specific problem of dealing with different subforums, tags, devices so people can find better the information relevant to their device. Good, this makes sense and the alternative/complementary solutions try to solve a same problem.

Then solutions 9-11 are more about rating signal vs noise. Which is an interesting discussion too. But better in a new brainstorm with separate discussion thread.

Solutions 12, 13 and 14 are all about different topics and unrelated to the previous two topics mentioned above.

Solution 15 might be a good complement helping the goal behind solutions 1-8.

Well, doesn't look like an efficient way to discuss.

And then imagine that https support (solution 12) is under development and implemented one day. The way to communicate this is to move the brainstorm to In Development and then to Implemented. You can select the solutions implemented, sure, but again moving the brainstorm to Implemented when the biggest topic with solutions 1-8 is still open might be again not a good idea.

This is what I'm talking about, and we have the same problem in most of the brainstorm proposals currently in the top 10 of "popularity" at http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/ ("Hot brainstorms"). Then you click on them and you realize that the popularity is due to the fact that they become cul-de-sac of 1001 slightly related ideas.

fatalsaint

01-16-2010, 11:58 PM

I have to admit... ^^^^ makes sense.

Texrat

01-17-2010, 03:12 AM

That helped. However, I continue to think that approach is philosophically valid. Again, it's a high-level problem that could be helped by myriad unrelated solutions.

But I'm still looking for a general proposal on how this process should be done. If we go to one solution per proposal, we'll see an explosion of proposals, many sharing enough attributes that they might all be addressed by one project-scale, high-level solution. We'd have a lot of proposals to stay on top of, and a lot more threads here (posts would likely be equal).

If we allow any multiple solutions per proposal at all, we're going to get the sort of situation we have now. It's no accidental coincidence that the problem you're citing, Quim, is common to the most popular proposals. There's a competition amongst solution creators. Collaboration could solve the problem but how do we help that happen?

So... how do we design our way out of this? And am I correct in assuming the instructions I originally created for the How To are totally wrong?

Reggie

01-19-2010, 10:52 AM

I think the main problem here is the main brainstorm topic is too broad. Instead of tackling a specific problem and addressing it, we are now faced with unrelated proposals that makes it difficult to manage.

Maybe we can be more specific next time. Quim has categorized the current proposed solutions. We should probably have a brainstorm topic for each of those categories.

Jaffa

01-20-2010, 11:13 AM

Ok, New Posts for user-specific forums... here's a workaround. I created a custom search that will show the latest posts on all forums that you are subscribed to.

There's a big issue with this (for me). If you accidentally follow a link to a post (say from Twitter), then your "new point" is reset. This wasn't an issue with New posts since it showed you "This threads also have unread messages"; but we don't get that with newsub.php.

Fixable?

Reggie

01-20-2010, 12:18 PM

Fixable?

Yes, it has been showing only threads that has been posted 'today'.

It should now show all threads with new posts for the past 30 days.

Thanks.

buurmas

01-20-2010, 03:19 PM

I think the main problem here is the main brainstorm topic is too broad. Instead of tackling a specific problem and addressing it, we are now faced with unrelated proposals that makes it difficult to manage.
Agreed. To use an analogy, what if I created a brainstorm titled "What should be changed in the N900?". That title doesn't reflect a problem -- that's a meta-problem that could encompass many of the brainstorms currently out there. Now, what if I created "What should be changed about the N900 browser?" (or "mediaplayer"). That's still pretty broad. Seems like it would be better to pick a particular problem with the N900 browser or mediaplayer as the subject of the brainstorm.

For this particular brainstorm, I think the problem we are most focused on was filtering &/or adding classifications to t.m.o. The primary purpose is for pre-N900's to be able to filter posts related only to the N900. Although, there might be other purposes, like people wanting to focus on Mer, N900 users wanting to filter out pre-N900 threads, etc. So perhaps a better subject would have been "Add filtering/classification capabilities to talk forum". That would prevent people from adding an irrelevant solution that involves, say, displaying New York Times headlines.

For meta-problems like "Things I don't like about t.m.o.", we could have a thread that dumps problems and spawns brainstorms. Or just a brainstorm category for t.m.o.

Just my two cents' worth.

Texrat

01-20-2010, 03:25 PM

again: pick your poison. Get too granular, and you just pushed the balloon swell to the other end.

I had thought we were using a project/task model already. My error. But I still believe that's the right approach.

Jaffa

01-21-2010, 09:28 AM

Yes, it has been showing only threads that has been posted 'today'.

It should now show all threads with new posts for the past 30 days.

Something weird's happening to me now, it's not restricting it to my "No notification" subscription folders - but given when I go to "My subscriptions" in my Control Panel, I can't tell which may have been lost or not; since unsubscribed appears the same as subscribed-with-notification.

Reggie

01-21-2010, 10:41 AM

Yes, it will display the newest items in all your subscribed forums regardless if you picked 'no notification' or daily, or weekly.

Now 'My Subscriptions' is entirely different. That displays all your subscribed threads (not forums).

Treat newsub.php as just to display the latest items happening in the forums you are subscribed to.

Jaffa

01-21-2010, 10:59 AM

Yes, it will display the newest items in all your subscribed forums regardless if you picked 'no notification' or daily, or weekly.

Earlier though, it listed the fora which were being shown. Now it just says "Posts from last day".

DaveP1

01-22-2010, 12:35 PM

I was getting too many results from newsub.php including posts in the N900 forum which I am not subscribed to.

In playing around, I came up with this URL which seems to work better for me. I think it's telling the search engine to find all new posts in subscribed forums.

http://talk.maemo.org/search.php?do=getnew&s=1

Feel free to try it and see if it works for you.

Sorry. This doesn't work.

Jaffa

01-22-2010, 12:37 PM

I was getting too many results from newsub.php including posts in the N900 forum which I am not subscribed to.

Glad it's not me then. I'm still subscribed to everything, as well, as going to a forum and going to "Forum tools" shows "Unsubscribe from this forum"

In playing around, I came up with this URL which seems to work better for me. I think it's telling the search engine to find all new posts in subscribed forums.

http://talk.maemo.org/search.php?do=getnew&s=1

Unfortunately, that's showing me stuff from the N810 forum which I'm not actively subscribed to ATM. So, nope, no joy :-(

DaveP1

01-22-2010, 12:54 PM

Unfortunately, that's showing me stuff from the N810 forum which I'm not actively subscribed to ATM. So, nope, no joy :-(

You're right. I must have just hit a lull in N900 posts when I tried it.

Back to the drawing board.

Reggie

01-22-2010, 12:56 PM

I'll take a look at it tonight. Thanks.

Reggie

01-22-2010, 04:02 PM

It should be fixed now. Sorry about that.

Texrat

01-27-2010, 04:24 PM

I will be breaking the original Brainstorm for this into manageable chunks per Quim's suggestion.

I have an idea how to accomodate his concerns and mine at the same time. Since the Brainstorm tool structure does not handle metastorms, I will use cross-referencing to connect the individual proposals. I also plan to create a master thread here to "rule them all and bind them". To that extent, I propose we create a new prefix called [Metastorm] to identify such threads. The first post of such a metastorm would list the individual Brainstorm proposals and provide links.

I think this is a good solution in lieu of a more functional tool.

Helmuth

01-27-2010, 05:41 PM

Hey Texrat! :)

Hmm... could it be possible to implement this in the Brainstorm system itself? (not today, in the near future is okay *g)

Just to group small Brainstorms and Link them automatically to each other.

I suggest something like your Metabrainstorm here (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=498143&postcount=3), just 4 minutes before your post! :D

So, I guess... Our thoughts about the Brainstorm system itself are very similar. ;) :D

Mmh... just dreaming... It would be great to open a Metabrainstorm at the Brainstorm site and see all small included Brainstorms as small groups in the Metabrainstorm. Just like a opened Treeview. (easy to vote, sort, edit and rearrange) :rolleyes:

JEAH! We will get the best brainstrom system ever and kick the Dell and ubuntu systems in their A**! :D

Texrat

01-27-2010, 06:13 PM

It's scary to see anyone think like me. :D

But yeah, we'll see what can be done going forward...

dwould

01-27-2010, 06:19 PM

ok first off appologies for being lazy and not reading through 14 pages of posts before this. so if it's been said sorry.

i would love it if t.m.o would email me if anyone quotes me anywhere. i don't want to subscribe to lots of threads and sometimes post and potentially forget to go back. so i thoughs notification if i'm mentioned/quoted would be pretty useful

fatalsaint

01-27-2010, 06:52 PM

buurmas

01-28-2010, 02:29 PM

Example (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=25584&page=16) of confusion stemming from one thread covering both Maemo 4 and 5 versions of the program.

Flandry

01-29-2010, 12:04 PM

There's merit in having the very technical, support-type threads gathered together in one place. There is also merit in having the criticism, praise, and review threads--the experiences--gathered together in one place. I think the problem is that some of the mods (me included), when doing the endless sorting that goes on (because most people who own an N900 just post in N900), feel like those two places of gathering should be distinct. There's a pretty clear division between review-type threads and technical discussion, or there could be, if we asked people to think in those terms.

I don't believe this differentiation has made an appearance in the Brainstorm on Talk reorganization. Should it?

In addition to the present categories of
Maemo 5/ Fremantle (OS/platform)
and
N900 (hardware devices)
there would be a
N900 reviews (criticism, praise, and experiences)

Edit: Solution added to the brainstorm entry (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/proposed_talk_forum_redesign_for_2010).

Added another solution inspired by this discussion (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=501099). This solution gives mods a better option for locating various threads which are about the N900 (or other device).

ZogG

04-17-2010, 07:07 AM

chemist

04-19-2010, 12:07 PM

Please consider to contribute to brainstorm if you have any ideas

http://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=47

You are moaning and that is ok but please dont start spamming the forums with it. Here aren't many moderators active and the noise is high. Feel free to report posts and threads you think are just noise useless and so on...

merged 1 post from 'some forum improvement ?'

Texrat

04-19-2010, 12:15 PM

Maybe in every subforum we should make something like "INDEX" thread, that would be sticky and add there most popular threads, because people never stop posting same threads and it would be easier for them to find the one they want. Also it would be nice to make taboo on update threads and only moderators can open ONE thread for each update (PR1.2/1.3 and so on i hope)

In addition to what chemist said... the most popular threads by virtue of that alone tend to be on top. So an index is unnecessary. Unless you mean most valuable threads, and that can get subjective enough to spawn argument threads-- which ironically bury the useful threads and stay at the top due to popularity. ;)

geneven

04-19-2010, 12:49 PM

In addition to what chemist said... the most popular threads by virtue of that alone tend to be on top. So an index is unnecessary. Unless you mean most valuable threads, and that can get subjective enough to spawn argument threads-- which ironically bury the useful threads and stay at the top due to popularity. ;)

I don't think there is an example at hand of a most valuable thread thread spawning a lot of argument threads, since there isn't a most valuable thread thread that I know of.

I think that a most valuable thread thread (or index) would be valuable, especially if aggressively moderated by some particularly respected person in the community -- Qole or Texrat come to mind.If it spawned too many arguments it could simply be excluded from the popular thread list by rule.

I really doubt that there would be an outpouring of people who thought that the PR 1.2 thread was one of the most valuable.

buurmas

04-19-2010, 01:42 PM

I think it would be really useful to see the "most thanked" posts of the day. Every once in a while, someone says something genuinely important or useful & these tend to get lots of "thanks". It's a shame that these can get lost in the noise.

Texrat

04-19-2010, 01:46 PM

I don't think there is an example at hand of a most valuable thread thread spawning a lot of argument threads, since there isn't a most valuable thread thread that I know of.

See "subjectivity".

;)

buurmas

04-26-2010, 02:53 PM

Frustration over N900 noise lead to a discussion of a new forum in this thread:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44479&page=17

From my perspective, I have tried Reggie's trick of subscribing to subforums. This allows me to see new posts in forums I care about. Then I subscribe to threads I care about. This works great for the N810 and OS2008 forums. However, with other forums the N900 content is still too much. For example, "Applications" has very heavy N900 content.

There is also an app purported to be very useful called "AppWatch", but it takes up a lot of space and so may be off-limits to those who haven't cloned their OS.

So I humbly suggest that, while the current solutions are very helpful, they are not enough.