[Under consideration] support for sim toolkit (sms encryption) [Archive] - maemo.org

killua.eu

12-19-2009, 05:59 PM

Quoting wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_Application_Toolkit): SIM Application Toolkit (commonly referred to as STK) is a standard of the GSMto initiate actions which can be used for various value-added services.

The most prominent value-added service are encrypted sms messages used by some banks (I know of 4 banks, use one of them actively) to protect customer data sent over GSM. Without the STK, users can't accept encrypted bank messages and are disallowed access to their online banking.

Additionally, there is a 3G networks equivalent called USIM Application Toolkit (or USAT).

STK is supported by superold nokia bricks, as well as newest symbian/android smartphones. There's no reason why for example the n900 shouldnt support it ;)

Anyone found a workaround for this?

killua.eu

12-19-2009, 06:02 PM

brainstorm here (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/support_for_sim_toolkit/)

killua.eu

12-19-2009, 06:04 PM

btw, one of my proposed solutions seems to have been deleted without any notification by someone other then me. did this happen to anyone? is there some active censoring here?

AndrewG

12-19-2009, 06:29 PM

Three uses a usim, correct?

killua.eu

12-20-2009, 08:28 AM

yep, at least thats what google says.

tomasvondra

12-20-2009, 12:41 PM

STK is one of the features I really miss on N900 :-(

My bank provides a very nice application to manage accounts / credit cards, which is much faster and considerably more comfortable than a regular web-based banking.

BTW I've noticed one of the proposed solutions (nokia should do it) was removed, and I find it very annoying / unfair no one explained why it was removed etc.

tomasvondra

12-20-2009, 07:56 PM

OK, I've read some introduction into STK (see the links in the wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_Application_Toolkit) article, e.g. this one (http://bladox.com/devel-docs/gen_stk.html)) and it seems like a relatively simple thing to do.

There is a very limited set of commands flowing between SIM card and ME (phone), so it seems like a relatively simple yet interesting thing to implement. I could try that, but I'm a total newbie regarding maemo - e.g. I'm not sure how to access the SIM card (directly or through dbus or something else?).

soeiro

01-22-2010, 11:27 AM

Any news on this?

kanna

01-25-2010, 10:19 AM

PR1.1 and still no support :(
Can't use Estonian mobile-ID :(
Any news, status?

jannok

01-29-2010, 05:43 AM

tomasvondra

01-31-2010, 01:24 PM

Any news on this?

No, still no news :( I've hoped this will be supported by the new firmware, but it isn't ...

tomasvondra

01-31-2010, 01:29 PM

Implementing ME side seems relatively easy, but I could find a way to communicate with SIM. Communication between ME and SIM is described in http://www.3gpp.org/FTP/Specs/html-info/1114.htm

Usually SIM access is done through Dbus, but I found only methods for reading IMEI and accessing contacts on SIM.

http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control
http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle-20091116/source/bluez/audio/telephony-maemo.c#1815

I could not find code for service(s) that replies to these DBus messages and actually accesses the SIM card.

I know the first link - it's a generic description of the API between ME and the SIM, but AFAIK this is unusable as this is 'hidden under the cover of Maemo'.

Thanks for the two other links - they're interesting, but AFAIK there are no d-bus messages for communicating with the SIM (OK, there are some messages to access contacts etc. but not those we need).

So either someone (Nokia?) has to add those d-bus messages, or we need to access the SIM in a different way. Or maybe I'm completely wrong :confused:

soeiro

02-05-2010, 08:38 AM

So either someone (Nokia?) has to add those d-bus messages, or we need to access the SIM in a different way. Or maybe I'm completely wrong :confused:

Is anybody from Nokia reading this?

There are some features on some operators that are only available through the use of the SIM applications. Example: banking, phone credit management, other configuration options, etc.

awben

02-06-2010, 07:21 PM

i hope, that someone of the maemo developers are reading this..

a lot of people need a sim tool kit

puiradu

02-07-2010, 02:32 PM

Right! A lot of people need this feature! The strage thing is that issue is not treated like a bug but like a brainstorm thing!

To be honest i can't find another smartphone, cause this should be N900, without this feature implemented by default! We are talking about GSM or what?

Lucky us! We are proudly named Nokia customers! I work in sales and this is not the right aproach for a customer. Right now I'm not happy the way Nokia is treating me!

I don'n know why I bother my had with this Nokia doesn't care...

Funny thing: I sold my N95 8GB and I saved some money for a while to can buy this ultimate device. Now I'm looking back and ask myself why? There are so many things that N95 8GB could handlle... N900 is a child because of his lack of applications and features that are found on muck cheeper phones!

Hope Nokia reads this...:mad:

puiradu

02-07-2010, 05:51 PM

... or at least Andre Kappler, the one who can treat this as a bug and not like a brainstorm issue!

soeiro

02-09-2010, 12:52 PM

I just don't get it. Isn't the SIM support supposed to be the standard for GSM phones? My first GSM phone had it (it was a Nokia, by the way), my last phone had it.

Now, not only we can't access a feature that makes the N900 inferior to any other GSM phone on the market today, but we can't even complain that this is a bug. :(

tomasvondra

02-10-2010, 06:57 PM

Right! A lot of people need this feature! The strage thing is that issue is not treated like a bug but like a brainstorm thing!

There was a "nokia should do it" option in the brainstorm, but somebody removed it for some reason. Don't ask me why it was removed - I have not noticed any explanation.

Anyway I've just noticed there are two new options in the brainstorm, so let's hope they won't be removed too ...

awben

02-19-2010, 12:17 PM

hmm...

noone else need the simtoolkit?

jeeylu

02-20-2010, 01:38 PM

I need this feature too. I wonder when il will be available.

gidoca

02-24-2010, 04:58 PM

... or at least Andre Kappler, the one who can treat this as a bug and not like a brainstorm issue!
Anyone can file bug reports.

hbghbg

02-25-2010, 01:36 PM

https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9204

soeiro

03-19-2010, 12:17 PM

https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9204

Yeah. Any one can file bugs, but then, many of those bugs just get "moved" to a brainstorm.

Typical answer:

Marking as MOVED to Brainstorm. See
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/sim_toolkit/

:(

toxaris

04-22-2010, 10:44 AM

Swedbank in Sweden have resently released their Mobil BankID.
This service rely on SIM Toolkit and there for does not work on N900 as it is now. I have confirmed with Swedbank support.

puiradu

05-17-2010, 05:58 PM

Any news about this?

doksng

05-21-2010, 01:24 AM

This option should be standard, just wondering why Nokia omitted it like USSD:mad:

soeiro

05-26-2010, 05:26 PM

Well the standard answer I get for this questioning is that the device is just a mobile computer with a phone stack quickly hacked together...but incomplete.

junnuvi

05-27-2010, 06:27 AM

I also have problems with this. I'm using mobile certificate for business VPN network connection. This mobile certificate uses sim toolkit for authentication. I have discussed about problem with Nokia Care customer support and local mobile operator (Sonera). Last message from Nokia was something like:
"N900 will not support sim application toolkit because it has totally different operating system than earlier Nokia phones (maemo5). Because of that your mobile operator should develop certificate which will be supported by N900"

I really don't know what to say? :D WTF?!?! :D

dotmrt

06-06-2010, 11:09 PM

I've been researching N900 as my next mobile device, but when I discovered that SIM Application Toolkit is not supported, this became THE dealbraker for me. Estonia has Mobile-ID (nationwide authentication service) and it is impossible to use it on N900.
I mean seriously, is there ANY other phone out there not supporting SIM Application Toolkit?!

So basically if You're from Estonia, don't buy N900!

junnuvi

06-07-2010, 12:10 AM

I mean seriously, is there ANY other phone out there not supporting SIM Application Toolkit?!

I pretty sure NOT as longest we don't calculate phones which are over 10 years old :D .

I have replied to Nokia, but they seem to stop communication for now with me. It could be possible my last message was not worlds kindest message, but hopefully I will still get some answer.

soeiro

06-09-2010, 10:35 AM

Since there is already a Java package for the N900 (icedtea) someone who knows more about interfacing with the SIM card could make it happen?

idea360

06-26-2010, 12:30 PM

Any news?

I bought the n900 today and was totally suprised by this lack of feature :( Reconsidering my purchase.

puiradu

07-13-2010, 05:43 PM

Someone found a way to solve this?

skripis

07-22-2010, 07:23 PM

jjx

07-22-2010, 07:34 PM

Just posting to keep this thread at the top, the lack of this feature is a major inconvenience for me.

Instead of *****ing about MeeGo and Flash 10, can't we focus on the small basic stuff that has been on phones for 10 years, and are tools, not toys?

I think I can count the number of people I know personally who've used this feature... on any phone ever... or ever even heard of it.... on exactly zero hands.

I'm sure it's an important feature for some users, even a critical feature, but I must admit it sounds utterly obscure to me. Is it really something that's supported by "every" other phone?

Btw, some people need (or will need) Flash 10 to talk to services... don't dismiss it as any less of a critical tool for some.

jjx

07-22-2010, 07:44 PM

Just posting to keep this thread at the top, the lack of this feature is a major inconvenience for me.

(Just a thought, hope it's useful.)

If you're hoping to attract developers who might make a difference, or get involved yourself, you're probably better off trying to find who's working with / using the existing SIM stuff and talking to them.

If you're hoping to raise the profile of the issue with Nokia developers, it is often claimed that Nokia employees don't read this forum (except a dedicated few - bless their souls), and that one of the forums on a Nokia domain might be a more effective for reaching Nokia/Nokians.

skripis

07-22-2010, 07:45 PM

I think I can count the number of people I know personally who've used this feature... on any phone ever... or ever even heard of it.... on exactly zero hands.

I'm sure it's an important feature for some users, even a critical feature, but I must admit it sounds utterly obscure to me. Is it really something that's supported by "every" other phone?

Btw, some people need (or will need) Flash 10 to talk to services... don't dismiss it as any less of a critical tool for some.

Up here in Scandinavia/the Baltic region it's a very common form of digital signature. I rarely/never run the apps in the SIM folder directly, those are all antique, but I've been using the sign-pin function to log into my netbank a lot since I found out about the possibly - no need to drag around that code generator anymore.

A quick google showed me that STK is available for Iphone, WM and Android. And ofcourse both S40 and S60. How 'bout that?

skripis

07-22-2010, 07:49 PM

(Just a thought, hope it's useful.)

If you're hoping to attract developers who might make a difference, or get involved yourself, you're probably better off trying to find who's working with / using the existing SIM stuff and talking to them.

If you're hoping to raise the profile of the issue with Nokia developers, it is often claimed that Nokia employees don't read this forum (except a dedicated few - bless their souls), and that one of the forums on a Nokia domain might be a more effective for reaching Nokia/Nokians.

I tried to vote on the topic in brainstorm - that's the least I can do - but I needed to create a separate login there as well... it's 2AM, I'll need something to keep myself busy with at work tomorrow.

As for official Nokia forums, I don't go there much anymore since they all seem to be populated by so many uninformed whiners, that every meaningful discussion quickly gets flooded with nonsense.

skripis

07-23-2010, 05:35 PM

Ok, so last night, just for the heck of it, I sent a request to Nokia Care/Nokia contact centre, asking for their view on these applications.

I actually got an answer! He requested some more info on what exactly these applications where useful for, an escalation could be possible. fingers crossed.

My $.02 are on a cut&paste reply once the matter escalates high enough - "it's up to the community".

(I forgot to mention that Iphone and Android supports it. Dang.)

puiradu

08-04-2010, 04:10 PM

Under consideration? Who's consideration? Will this be ever implemented?

nieldk

11-22-2010, 03:39 AM

May I suggest having a look at the Android source.
May also be worth sending on to Nokia care to let them know what it is.
Perhaps someone will be able to port from this.
http://source.android.com/porting/stk.html

dchky

11-24-2010, 08:06 AM

Under consideration? Who's consideration? Will this be ever implemented?

My conservative opinion is that this will not be implemented by Nokia in Maemo on the N900. Ever.

It's a phone feature, the N900 is primarily an internet tablet.

sands.m

11-24-2010, 08:34 AM

This is not the only feature lacking in this phone.

I wish i had never purchased this device.Decisions !! Decesions !! :)

TiagoTiago

11-24-2010, 11:03 AM

...

So basically if You're from Estonia, don't buy N900!

Or rather buy it and keep a cheap mobile with you for using the ID things.

nieldk

11-25-2010, 04:29 PM

If anyone would care to read up on this, it is very clear that the community can only do part of such an application (interface):

http://source.android.com/porting/stk.html

1) STK RIL: Low-level layer provided by the vendor plus libril.
2) STK Telephony: Protocol translation layer that converts raw messages provided by the STK RIL to application level messages.
3) STK Application: Provides the user interface interactions needed by the STK.

We would (easily) be able to develop 2).
3) Is the STK application that we are trying to communicate with.
AND 1) We cant do nothing about this one, that is all up to Nokia as the RIL refers to Radio Interface Layer (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Interface_Layer)

So, as for the Brainstorm, there is only ONE solution, the RIL needs an update, and only Nokia will be able to do this. Hence also the missing, previously reffered to d-bus messages!

EDIT. Oh! and it might not even be possible for Nokia to do this update, as it actually may require other hardware, or chip replacement.

nieldk

11-25-2010, 04:43 PM

Then again. Perhaps I am wrong! YEAH!
This is the core of the API interface, oFono

http://ofono.org

In the blogs on those pages we will indeed find references to STK!

If anyone would care to read up on this, it is very clear that the community can only do part of such an application (interface):

http://source.android.com/porting/stk.html

1) STK RIL: Low-level layer provided by the vendor plus libril.
2) STK Telephony: Protocol translation layer that converts raw messages provided by the STK RIL to application level messages.
3) STK Application: Provides the user interface interactions needed by the STK.

We would (easily) be able to develop 2).
3) Is the STK application that we are trying to communicate with.
AND 1) We cant do nothing about this one, that is all up to Nokia as the RIL refers to Radio Interface Layer (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Interface_Layer)

So, as for the Brainstorm, there is only ONE solution, the RIL needs an update, and only Nokia will be able to do this. Hence also the missing, previously reffered to d-bus messages!

EDIT. Oh! and it might not even be possible for Nokia to do this update, as it actually may require other hardware, or chip replacement.