Adobe Flash Player 10: When will the update arrive? Is it coming at all? [Archive] - Page 2 - maemo.org

zwer

05-05-2010, 02:43 AM

devu

05-05-2010, 02:47 AM

Considering the first flash 10.1 demo was on an n900, this is freakin' *****ic...

Yea...

5th October 2009 presentation of the Flash 10.1 on N900. They HAD to have this installed, prepared compiled whatever. Even as Alpha with cooperation with developers from both sides. After half and year Adobe keep telling us that will be for many devices, but Nokia in another interview - not planed. What not planed? The only thing planed was to use Adobe to promote N900 this way?

If Nokia doing this intentionally because of business or market decisions and drop this idea I can't find the logical explanation here really.

Especialy when here (http://http://www.openscreenproject.org/developers/get_started.html) On the bottom of the page I see 2 logotypes.

I don't know, there is too much information noise around at the moment don't get crazy of that. Just keep our patience a little bit yet.

Edit:
Otherwise the last application I am gonna install will be n900Fly and guess what ;)

Metalfox

05-05-2010, 03:04 AM

Oh, well. Now I'm really hoping html5 will catch up and make flash useless.
Still if this is true, I'm seriously dissappointed. :(

But well the true hacking begins when the support ends ;)

Rushmore

05-05-2010, 11:15 AM

We have no reason to doubt Qole, but I'll poke my inside sources at Adobe to try to get the real reason for cancelation. The last info I had is that they've ironed out most of the issues for platforms they've announced to support 10.1 (and Maemo 5 on N900 was one of them) and that they are having serious problems for getting around Androids' structural limitations (Dalvik mostly) so that the focus is on Android and once they bring it to an acceptable state 10.1 should be available for the rest as well.

If that's true, and I have no reason to doubt my sources any more than Qole, this is then a pure business decission, and a bad one at that. After all, if the Harmattan device is to support 10.1, and if it's true that it will sport pretty much the same base HW, the Flash Player would be essentially the same as for the N900. And I highly doubt that both, Nokia and Adobe, would like to see Harmattan/MeeGo not supporting the 10.1.

Either way, I'll try to get the info which side pulled the plug, Adobe or Nokia, as we should know who should get a 'jerk' label for disappointing their loyal users/supporters for some loose marketing gain. Of course, there is a distant possibility that there is a serious problem for utilizing the OMAP3430 and that it's not a business decission after all, in which case we should forget 10.1 support for the Harmattan device as well. But either way, that shouldn't stop Adobe releasing the non-HW-accelerated player - the advances on the NanoJIT between Flash 9 and Flash 10 alone are enough to give a reason to update.

Droid uses the 3430 and has already been shown by Adobe with 10.1. Droid is confimed to be getting Flash 10.1 with Android 2.2 in just a few months. 3430 would not be the issue. Especially since Adobe mentions the 3430 and 8250 as the current chipsets supported.

Too many Droid's out there to not have it. I think it is a market issue and Maemo is not part of their plans, unless Nokia wants to flip the bill for dev work on it. I figured something was up, since I have read zero information from the Adobe 10.1 mobile team about Nokia or Maemo. Only Android and WP7.

Given Nokia's less than great support of Maemo and the N900, I would not be waiting for 10.1. Perhaps we will see Flash Lite 4 (10.1 lite version), but that version actually has LESS function than Flash Lite 3.1. You also can not launch Flash content like you can with the N900 full version. testing on Incredible right now and a lot more video and game content works with full 9.4. Flash Lite 4 does not even play games (3.1 has no problem).

I know there are a lot of unrequitted Nokia lovers here, but it seems Nokia screwed the N900 up in regards to software and support. Wicked stepchild-like neglect.

Were it not for the dedicated community that resides here, N900 would be a device only tech-coders could love.

Ironic that my Droid and Incredible will have better Flash support than the N900, that Adobe started their main tests of 10.1 on in the first place. Especially Droid, since same chipset.

Bratag is a level headed bloke, so if he is being critical too, watch out! I agree. Given Nokia's track-record. Why buy another device from them? If N900 is not getting 10.1, I will not even bother updating to 1.2 OC. Media plays fine and MAME plays great. I stopped using the N900 as a phone months ago. On verizon now, anyways. Droid and Incredible in a duel ATM.

Bratag

05-05-2010, 11:54 AM

If true, and I have no reason to doubt qole... I'll be waiting for the next Nokia product indeed.

As much as I like the N900 - if thats true then I simply will never buy another Nokia product as long as I live. I have become increasingly disheartened with the way that Nokia has supported this device and the complete lack of information provided.

It's no damn way to run a company, especially when they are making such a big deal of the openness of Meego and at the same time alienating the community that is such a big part of that openness.

sygys

05-06-2010, 02:52 AM

Why in a few months.....? in a few months 11 will come out

gerbick

05-06-2010, 03:02 AM

Why in a few months.....? in a few months 11 will come out

Adobe CS5 just shipped... and 10.1 is still the newest flash player. I doubt that 11 will be out for at least a few more quarters.

gerbick

05-06-2010, 03:03 AM

As much as I like the N900 - if thats true then I simply will never buy another Nokia product as long as I live. I have become increasingly disheartened with the way that Nokia has supported this device and the complete lack of information provided.

It's no damn way to run a company, especially when they are making such a big deal of the openness of Meego and at the same time alienating the community that is such a big part of that openness.

Wow. No offense Bratag; however over the years your opinion has easily been one that I've paid close attention to while here.

Just surprised to see this... but I respect it.

Dima202

05-06-2010, 08:22 AM

Qole is saying on twitter there will be no flash 10 on N900 :( I was really looking forward to better flash perfomance.

http://twitter.com/qole

How reliable is this source? I have seen flash 10 demonstrated on Nokia N900. There should be absolutely no reason for not releasing it!!
If this is true then Nokia, not Adobe is holding back!

patstew

05-06-2010, 08:46 AM

Wow. No offense Bratag; however over the years your opinion has easily been one that I've paid close attention to while here.

Just surprised to see this... but I respect it.

Complaining about nokia not handing out firmware updates quickly enough is one thing, but if they're holding back software that's been developed to try and make people upgrade to N900+1 that's another thing entirely.
I don't agree or join in with the people who complain because the N900 doesn't do X, when nokia never said it would do X, but if nokia are holding back software that exists then I think it's legitimate to complain and weigh it against any future purchasing decisions.

Bratag

05-06-2010, 11:33 AM

Wow. No offense Bratag; however over the years your opinion has easily been one that I've paid close attention to while here.

Just surprised to see this... but I respect it.

Just a little ticked at Nokia who seem to be saying "Hey look how we support open source/development" on one hand. Yet the device that lends itself to that the most in their lineup, seems to be getting the pointy end of the pineapple.

Maybe I am just in a bad mood at the moment :)

Rushmore

05-06-2010, 01:56 PM

Just a little ticked at Nokia who seem to be saying "Hey look how we support open source/development" on one hand. Yet the device that lends itself to that the most in their lineup, seems to be getting the pointy end of the pineapple.

Maybe I am just in a bad mood at the moment :)

Nope, pineapples are pointy, pretty much everywhere;)

I do not have a very groovy feeling that 10.1 will be released for the N900- unless via Meego later in the year- assuming N900 is given the option, of course.

unkno

05-06-2010, 06:39 PM

Maemo is essentially a dead platform from Nokia's perspectives. I won't be surprised that PR1.2 will be the last update and that Flash 10.1 will not be (officially) supported for Maemo.

Only way for the N900 to have more updates in the future is Nokia's decision on fully supporting Meego on the N900.

harp

05-06-2010, 06:59 PM

I won't condemn Nokia if this doesn't make it to the N900 because Flash 10 would have been a nice addition to this phone, but I will be a little disappointed. I guess now we play the waiting game.

crxtodd16

05-07-2010, 12:55 AM

...Either way, I'll try to get the info which side pulled the plug, Adobe or Nokia, as we should know who should get a 'jerk' label for disappointing their loyal users/supporters for some loose marketing gain....

Any updates on this, zwer?

I'm already coming to terms that flash 10.1 is not going to happen for Maemo 5, but it would be interesting to at least understand why. To be honest, I'm pretty sure the blame is going to be on Nokia. They've pulled stupid stuff like this again and again - announce a new platform/theme/concept/application with huge promises of growth *ahem, N-Gage* and then they completely abandon it.

I too am sick of this, Nokia needs to stick with things instead of constantly testing new ideas; however, I have not yet seen another mobile OS worth switching to... WP7 looks rather iffy at the moment, I really don't like android and it's inefficient hardware use (also, task manager much? nothing compared to Maemo 5, or even symbian, lol), and the fruit phone is just plain silly with overlord Steve Jobs trying to slither his filthy hands into my wallet each time I push a button.

All of this being said, I'm almost tempted to go back to Symbian. It's trusty, the media player works flawlessly (unlike maemo, stupid incorrect album titles, no album editing! ugh!) Free maps, more apps, Symbian^3+, Qt, and sweet cameras are only the beginning - but that's nothing compared to continual support with long term plans/promises that are actually being kept. Sort of. Lol.

Jeffgrado

05-07-2010, 01:09 AM

It probably takes a fair amount of money to get a new version of flash onto a device. With the N900 already old in mobile phone terms, Nokia is just moving on.

devu

05-07-2010, 01:52 AM

I feel so bloody stupid and naive if all this speculations are true.
Why? because I bought the s**t when Adobe presented flash 10.1 on N900 7 months ago. If that was only marketing cheat from Nokia that's so big lie that supposed to end up in a court.

Hey! show to the world we can play Flash, because seems that every one is talking about it now. And we don't really care after sold out this prototype.

If you can't promise some features because of tech difficulties don't show it to the public and 7 month later tell as "not planned" because this is &#$^# big b***t and marketing lie. I am pretty sure there is something against consumer rights here.

Also when I am reading this forum from 1 month I know my opinion is worth nothing here since I am dump flash developer (read: artist who pretend to be programmer) but I believe big numbers of programmers here wish that Flash will never happen on N900. Flash vs Linux vs HTML5 vs iPhone who next?

But I am pretty sure here is big numbers of N900 owners because they bought this promise same as me. Nokia, a lie has short legs!

HellFlyer

05-07-2010, 02:07 AM

kaz911

05-07-2010, 02:30 AM

I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.

And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.

Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash should stop.

On my notebook (QX9300 based quad core) accidentally leaving the browser on a flash enabled pages decreases battery time by anywhere from 30-60% in Google Chrome and IE.

So what will that do to your true multitasking N900 handset?

On my 6 core i980 - wattage goes from 120watt to 190 watt when browser is on a page with flash adverts only - and that is with GPU acceleration.

So flash is not green for anyone else than Adobe....

I agree that flash is kind of unavoidable - but please developers - think about your consumers and make your apps easy as possible on the consumers power consumption.

So im in NO hurry to get better flash or even have flash on a mobile device like N900 that already suffers from bad battery life.

devu

05-07-2010, 02:48 AM

Go there Flaemo (http://www.flaemo.com/test) and check your performance compare to 80% apps here perform better in terms of battery life. There is a lot of room to improve yet. Transitions, blur, transparency can also be an option only.

Go there (http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does_html5_really_beat_flash_surprising_results_of _new_tests.php) to understand a bit more political reasons why some platforms slowing down flash really and why pushing html5 idea forward.

Oh! and check your processor consumption when you scrolling down the page on that blog! This is text in html only right?

I'm tired....

digital909

05-07-2010, 02:48 AM

I had my first non-displaying flash page last night. If there really is no 10.1 then I am one p*ssed off punter. Hacking is all good, but the basic functionality of the flash browser needs to be supported. I feel ripped off big time.

zwer

05-07-2010, 05:22 AM

Any updates on this, zwer?

Still waiting for my drones :D to dig up some info - all I've got for now is from one member of the FP dev team (desktop branch) is that there were no official strategy changes within Adobe in the past 2 months, which indicates that either the potential support for Maemo was dropped much earlier, or that something happened on the business side between Nokia and Adobe, or within Nokia itself. However, that is nothing more than a speculation. The only solid info I still have is that both Maemo and webOS versions were quite ready (from the technology point of view) months ago and that the Android support was what was holding down 10.1 release for mobiles, what changed in the meantime and why you get lately only Android mentioned in Adobes' press releases still eludes me...

It probably takes a fair amount of money to get a new version of flash onto a device. With the N900 already old in mobile phone terms, Nokia is just moving on.

Except that the most work done here is at Adobes' side - Nokia would essentially only have to distribute it within some of the future updates. Plugin wrappers and framebuffer renders are directly portable from any given Linux version of the plugin, so Adobe only had to change the core - AVM2 and graphics handling (incl. video rendering). The VM part is essentially the same across all mobile platforms based on ARMv7, so they would have to do that either way; the second part can be a combined effort of the plugin they are already developing for the Linux as the both boil down to the X Window System and its core gfx libs, while the HW acceleration is the same deal with maybe a slightly different packaging for all OMAP 3430 platforms (and Motorola Droid and Palm Pre both use the same). So, developing a Maemo plugin is certainly not a money waster given that they would do most of the work either way.

Further, Maemo 6/Harmattan/MeeGo are essentially the same platform from the Adobes' point of view, and if the upcoming device from Nokia will be indeed based on the OMAP 3430 SoC, the plugins should be compatible on the byte level w/o even need to recompile. Which only strengthens my belief that if N900 is not getting the 10.1 - it's a business/marketing decision.

I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.

If you were to put a watt-meter on a HTML/JS page that does the same that a Flash page does (of course, HTML/JS combo, even in the full-HTML5 draft support flavor which doesn't even exist yet, cannot actually do many of the things Flash does routinely) you would be not scared, but terrified! No JS VM comes even close at instructions/watt performance of AVM2. Flash, when used properly, is far more efficient than any HTML/JS implementation out there.

And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.

It does, and in a huge way at that. CPUs (at least in CISC flavor) are jack of all trades but master of none, GPUs can do much less than your average CPU can, but what they do, they do far more efficiently. One of those things is complex number crunching which is really important for things like video decoding, encryption and, of course, 3D rendering and composition (well, anything that has to manipulate a large number of pixels). If you leave the decoding to GPU, you would waste far less watts per video frame than if CPU would do that. Even vector gfx processing can benefit from GPU acceleration as it also boils down to complex math.

Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash should stop.

So, you are blaming the technology for the faults of developers using that technology. You can build a processor hog in pretty much any executable language, that doesn't say anything about the platform/language, but says a lot about the developer. If Flash was to disappear/become replaced by HTML5/JS combo, where do you think those bad developers would go? That's right - they'll switch to even more inefficient technology and make you a living hell of web experience - now you can at least disable the plugin and you can easily block those obtrusive adds, just wait for the day where you would need to build a CPU-hogging ad blocker that targets only specific parts of the DOM and JS - to stop CPU-hogging ads...

devu

05-07-2010, 08:04 AM

I would like to thank you twice, but there is no such option available :)

Really, this whole party here need more people like you. With solid experience and not dinosaur habit like most of old-school guys unfortunately have. And I bet you are this kind of person that prefer to try something before give some opinion.

I'm trying to get some info from flash community as well but for now I can only confirm your assumptions. Maemo is sinking Flash 10.1 too, only because of marketing decisions. The only hope is while n900 is good device itself somebody find a way how to put some useful stuff here.

For now situation looks like we end up with outdated Flash 9 and when flash 10.1 will show up the only thing we can see it's blank screen. iPhone users are in better positions because they have some cool blue lego instead ;)

Only one thing I can't really get is leaked PR 1.2 has new flash 9 version to compare to 1.1.1 and also I founded .so files of it. They had to play around it intentionally... for now I see LOWER performance of Flash. If this is true they will even kill us more with 1.2...

Edit:
Yeap

Previously my performance monitor in Flaemo showed me 24fps when sliding desktop slowed down (in worst case scenario) to 19.

Now 9... In this case I can even personally recommend you forget about Flaemo on your N900

They treating us like idiots really...

Rushmore

05-07-2010, 10:19 AM

If you go by Nokia's CEO and his recent statements to investors:

"We are focussing on the Symbian OS and putting it in as many devices as possible". Sounds to me they are off in another direction again.

A lot of you folks here ROCK, but were it not for the N900's great hardware, my view of Nokia is less than good. Nokia seems to flutter in the wind and go in the direction the wind does. No clear focus at all and seems they rely on their huge size of "current" marketshare, which does NOT take into account retired devices. My guess is their active install base is erroding due to the lack of focus.

BTW, people saying that Flash 10.1 is not that great, did you have the same view when Nokia mislead us to imply we were getting it?

N900 hardware rocks, but (IMO) Nokia does not.

devu

05-10-2010, 01:15 PM

Get the info about holy war from the source ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBzVGWWpZAw

Its about HTML vs Flash
What Flash 10.1 will be
And freedom of choice

Rushmore

05-11-2010, 08:47 AM

Whoever posted that Flash 10.1 will not help much compared to 9.4 is as wrong as one can respectfully get. Here is a recent video some very complex Flash sites running very smoothly on the 550mhz clocked Moto Droid. Try running these on the N900 and then make the statement that Flash 10.1 is not a big deal (in regards to content performance). If there was EVER a device that should get Flash 10.1, it is the N900. Complete input options to take advantage of content. Stylus is very handy. Only device that will come close to N900 for using content (due to keyboard) is the Droid.

http://www.androidcentral.com/android-flash-froyo-games-video-nexus-one

Google employees are being given Moto Droids with Flash 10.1 & an early release of 2.2 Android OS.

devu

05-11-2010, 09:03 AM

Going further

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUWo19BcC7s&feature=related

kmare

05-11-2010, 10:49 AM

Endri

05-11-2010, 10:55 AM

No way. Flash 10.1 is not coming to maemo and eventually not on n900... next device...

On Froyo works as a breeze

slaapliedje

05-11-2010, 10:59 AM

Considering Adobe first demoed 10.1 on the N900...

<sarcasm>Yeah, you must be correct, it's NEVER coming out for the N900</sacrasm>

Frank Banul

05-11-2010, 11:01 AM

Considering Adobe first demoed 10.1 on the N900...

Yeah, that fooled me too. I figured it was a sure thing. But now I'll take any bets on it that it won't be coming to the N900. PM me. :)

Frank

sjgadsby

05-11-2010, 11:06 AM

The thread "flash 10.1 on android 2.2" with four posts has been merged into this thread.

digital909

05-11-2010, 11:19 AM

gerbick

05-11-2010, 01:20 PM

Why don't we get on nokia's back about this instead of moaning? I've emailed (no response) but I think if you feel strongly about it, let them know you want flash 10.1 on a device that is supposed to be an MID (whether you're a linux geek or Joe Public) and not some second rate iphone wannabe with a half @ssed 'browser'.

Easy. For every person that actually wants Flash 10.1 and thinks that Nokia should somehow entice developers for their platform of choice, you will find 10 more people that chant for the death of Flash on their platform of choice.

I guess having the ability to turn it off is forgotten by others (turn off the plugin that is).

Hynkel

05-11-2010, 04:58 PM

Easy. For every person that actually wants Flash 10.1 and thinks that Nokia should somehow entice developers for their platform of choice, you will find 10 more people that chant for the death of Flash on their platform of choice.

I guess having the ability to turn it off is forgotten by others (turn off the plugin that is).

Surely that ratio is the other way round? The only people I know who "chant for the death of flash" are apple fanboys and html nerds. The vast majority of non power users either couldn't care if something is flash, or have no idea what flash is, only that they can watch videos on websites.

ear0wax

05-11-2010, 05:03 PM

I smell an open letter to nokia/adobe brewing.......

gerbick

05-11-2010, 05:16 PM

Hynkel

05-11-2010, 05:37 PM

You've not read this entire thread or any other about Flash around here.

Now I'm really hoping html5 will catch up and make flash useless. (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=644026&postcount=245)

f*** flash, adobe and adobes chief. i'm 100% on apples side, working against them. (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=636661&postcount=193)

There are others, but that's in this thread alone. Seriously... more people here ask about Flashblock and not using/liking Flash than I'd expect. My numbers before, hyperbole. But the fact that there are more than just a few folks that dislike Flash - something that's been around since the early days of Slashdot and the Linux users there - it's... growing.

Saying that people on Slashdot and Linux users dislike flash doesn't really counter my point. There are by far (even greater than the 10 to 1 ratio) a greater number of people using computers, and the internet, who know next to nothing about computers. They just want to be able to use the internet, and not have to worry about missing plugins. They won't know why it isn't working, only that it doesn't! // EDIT : Sorry, missed the part about it growing from there

I really dislike the current iterations of flash, especially on mobile devices, but I wouldn't have any problem with it on my phone if it worked well, and fast, then why would I care that it's flash?

Also, I use flash block on my laptop because I don't want flash applets loading when I go to the page, I want to have the choice to load them, not because I want to filter out all flash content. I also use adblock to filter out adverts, but that doesn't mean I don't like jpegs.

stlpaul

05-11-2010, 05:47 PM

Flash sucks. I hate flash. People who make "websites" that require flash need to find a new line of work. I use adblock and flashblock on all my computers.

That being said, if I have Flash in my N900 I want it to be a current and proper version of Flash. Some sites don't work without Flash. Already there are websites rejecting N900's browser because it doesn't have Flash 10. That will only get worse when Flash 10.1 comes out. The apparently long testing cycle of Nokia firmware releases (and lack of any software updates outside of firmware releases) and Adobe taking for-ev-er to release Flash 10.1 would seem to indicate to me that our chances of ever seeing Flash 10+ on N900 are dwindling rapidly every minute.

I am an optimistic pessimist. I hope for the best but expect the worst.

superg05

05-11-2010, 05:51 PM

Qole is saying on twitter there will be no flash 10 on N900 :( I was really looking forward to better flash perfomance.

http://twitter.com/qole

wrong it will be on the n900
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pee3nT4bPw4&feature=player_embedded#!

zwer

05-11-2010, 05:56 PM

Flash sucks. I hate flash. People who make "websites" that require flash need to find a new line of work. I use adblock and flashblock on all my computers.

Would you care to elaborate on that... You know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary arguments. So, why does Flash sucks? What makes it suck? What is the alternative? Why are you so emotional about a vapor that is software (hate is quite a strong emotion)? And at last, why should I find a new line of work (although making sites and solutions that require Flash are just a part of my daily job)?

Would you please enlighten me on what other technology will allow the clients of my company to deploy their services on the web when many of those require real-time, selective strong encryption, live video conferences, RT socket driven games, P2P connections, and many others? I mean short of creating our own platform, development tools and a web browser plugin that we need to convince end users to install...

stlpaul

05-11-2010, 06:32 PM

Would you care to elaborate on that... You know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary arguments. So, why does Flash sucks? What makes it suck? What is the alternative? Why are you so emotional about a vapor that is software (hate is quite a strong emotion)? And at last, why should I find a new line of work (although making sites and solutions that require Flash are just a part of my daily job)?

Would you please enlighten me on what other technology will allow the clients of my company to deploy their services on the web when many of those require real-time, selective strong encryption, live video conferences, RT socket driven games, P2P connections, and many others? I mean short of creating our own platform, development tools and a web browser plugin that we need to convince end users to install...

Yes, exactly, that kind of stuff. :) Just kidding. I was using hyperbole.

Seriously, I understand that you may use Flash as a cross-platform application development (just as you might choose to use Java, .NET, Qt, gtk+ etc).

I'm mainly referring to standard web sites that don't work properly without Flash, and people who use Flash where Flash is not necessary. For example, if your menu/navigation on your website is flash-only, your site cannot be used by people who don't have flash. That's a problem. If you have a full-screen flash program on your website, AS your website, that's a problem. Sites that provide a noflash option are dwindling.

As a USER of Flash Player, I find it to be slow, annoying and insecure. And yes, when people used Java applets for the same purpose I find that to be slow, unstable and insecure as well... and I also browse with noscript. So, yeah, I'm one of those annoying people. :rolleyes:

For example, most entertainment or children's websites are basically just a flash program wrapped in an otherwise empty HTML page. Or a website that is mostly HTML, but uses Flash for menu/navigation and has no other way to navigate the site. They aren't accessible in general.

I think a web site should be functional when all the viewer can see are text and links. If a website can't function without a plug-in, I don't think it should be called a website at all. (For example, the so-called "web-based" Slingplayer, which is really just a Windows binary installed as an add-on in Firefox, launched when you visit a certain web page)

zwer

05-12-2010, 01:19 AM

Ok, let's settle this 'argument' once and for all...

Seriously, I understand that you may use Flash as a cross-platform application development (just as you might choose to use Java, .NET, Qt, gtk+ etc).

No, I may use Adobe AIR as a cross-platform application development, but in that case I'd indeed rather use Qt - getting as close as possible to the hardware layer while not sacrificing uniformity of an app and still being able to use mostly the same code is of a paramount importance for cross-platform development. I'm talking here about cross-browser, cross-platform web development - you know, things that execute within a browser and when a traditional HTML/CSS/JS combo (and that includes the yet-to-be-properly-implemented-and-wide-spread HTML5) just cannot cut it.

I mentioned some of the use-cases where that applies, but there are hundreds more, and it will remain like that even if the full HTML5 draft is to be implemented in each and every browser, to the fullest, and become available tomorrow. Flash has been doing for years, or in many cases even more than a decade, what is proposed to be implemented in the standard HTML5 by 2022, and it will continue to evolve much faster than the HTML in the future as well. Let me share a sacrilegious thought - I'd rather have HTML die out (with ECMA consortium stuck JavaScript) than Flash. And if you are into the web-development business, you should be able to understand why - there is no single aspect of the web that is slowing down web development and making it far more costly than it needs to be than *drumroll* the HTML itself.

I'm mainly referring to standard web sites that don't work properly without Flash, and people who use Flash where Flash is not necessary. For example, if your menu/navigation on your website is flash-only, your site cannot be used by people who don't have flash. That's a problem. If you have a full-screen flash program on your website, AS your website, that's a problem. Sites that provide a noflash option are dwindling.

So again we have the case of blaming a technology for its irresponsible use? By that definition you can take a pick at C/C++ (or any other language/platform) given that a lot of viruses, trojans, worms, adware, spyware and essentially meaningless apps are developed using that specific language. And don't get me started on the internet itself. Heck, you can blame computers in general for giving the ability to dishonest people to exploit and abuse their power for their own sinister agendas. And at the end you can use the same argument against HTML/CSS/JS combo as well given that its abused far more frequently than Flash.

Here is an entertaining idea - if you don't like some web site, if you think that developers of that website abuse any given technology to make your life a living hell, if you are like me and appreciate the function over the form - how about not going to that specific web site? If the number of visitors to any given web site drops considerably you can bet that the web developers will be forced (and some even fired... out of a cannon... into the Sun...) to produce more user-friendly and appealing solution. It's precisely the reason I don't visit cnn.com and countless of other sites, ever...

As a USER of Flash Player, I find it to be slow, annoying and insecure. And yes, when people used Java applets for the same purpose I find that to be slow, unstable and insecure as well... and I also browse with noscript. So, yeah, I'm one of those annoying people. :rolleyes:

What exactly do you find slow, annoying and insecure when it comes to Flash? Or we have, as in the previous example, another case of blaming the technology for its irresponsible use? Flash has won over Java when it comes to in-browser use because it was faster, lighter and far more suited and armed for that specific need, but the question remains the same for Java applets as well. I also browse with NoScript, well, actually with Adblock Plus, but not because there are evil Flash, Java, Silverlight, Unity3D and countless of other technologies, but because there are a lot of idiot developers and even more `marketing geniuses` that exploit such technologies.

Do you honestly think that if we were to banish all but vanilla HTML/JS/CSS on the web, web will become a better place? Where do you think that those idiots of developers and greedy marketers will turn to? That's right, they'll start exploiting HTML/JS/CSS and make a living hell for end-users with those as well, but this time it will be even harder to block them and your favorite ad/idiot blocker will have to spend far more resources to hunt down specific functions and elements tightly integrated within the DOM to banish them out. If you think that `killing Flash` will make your life on the web easier, you are in for a whole bag of hurt should your wish come true.

On the other hand, if those technologies that augment traditional web weren't available, the web would become indeed a sad place. Maybe you, as an end user, cannot really appreciate what's going on in the backstage, but trust me, many of the things you can see today on the web are either powered by or own thanks to those technologies for their existence. Plenty of web solutions of today wouldn't be even possible if not augmented by additional technologies such is Flash.

If you are all for throwing out the baby with the bathwater, there is one fruity company that enthusiastically share your point of view, and you should embrace them right away - their philosophy will make you insanely more happy and you wouldn't have to worry about the things you've expressed in your post. Ever. Although I seriously doubt they are doing that to make you happy, but to exert even more control over their platform and the interwebs; however their `walled garden` approach is also perfectly acceptable alternative to the way things are now. If you side with them you'll get exactly what you seem to wish for - only one way to do things, no out-of-the-box thinking or tinkering, everything should be uniform, and they'll happily make the decisions for you on what should be allowed and what not, what is a good development, what is a good marketing scheme... everything! You can just sit back, relax... and, well, take it up the arse, pardon the harshness...

I, on the other hand, value my personal freedoms far more than a self-appointed right not to be annoyed by idiots, be it marketers or developers, and I'll gladly take all the goodies and all the baddies of the modern web. So I say bring it all in... bring Flash... bring Java... bring Silverlight... bring on the whole shebang! Sure, I'll get annoyed from time to time, I'll have to employ various blockers or at times turn off the respective plugins completely, I'll swear and curse at my monitor when a Coke bottle starts dancing all over my screen, I'll devilishly hope that the whole family of a developer who ate the half of my CPU to show me a goddamn Viagra ad die in a horrible car crash or in a house fire, I'll pray for some Bubba to take that Viagra and rape the marketing smartass who came up with that idea in the first place, and... I wouldn't like it any other way!

H3llb0und

05-12-2010, 01:44 AM

...

I did read the whole thing. And if I was a girl I would want to have your babies. :D

voracity

05-12-2010, 01:58 AM

And if you are into the web-development business, you should be able to understand why - there is no single aspect of the web that is slowing down web development and making it far more costly than it needs to be than *drumroll* the HTML itself.

I actually agree with a fair bit of what you say, but not this. The web has to evolve in a way that builds on and preserves what has come before. That is why we can still open up the very first web page (http://www.w3.org/History/19921103-hypertext/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html) in today's browsers without the slightest hitch. Yes, this means things move more slowly than is possible, but it makes the web more robust. And I don't know of any language or environment that boasts the level of backwards and forwards compatibility of HTML, while still accommodating the level of innovation that it does. (I also don't know of any environment that is as hackable as HTML, but that's another matter.)

Having said that, I think technologies like Flash should continue to exist so long as they continue to push the envelope. I do think that Flash will die one day (aside from the kind of emulators we use today for long dead consoles and computers) but I hope it's because we have chosen to move to something more powerful, and not because some control-freak despot has decided we aren't intelligent enough to make the choice ourselves.

marktold

05-12-2010, 02:17 AM

Android 2.2 with Flash 10.1

http://www.osnews.com/story/23275/Adobe_Shows_Off_Flash_10_1_on_Android_Impresses

Quote
The release of Flash 10.1 for Android is tied to the release of Android 2.2 "Froyo", which Google is expected to unveil at this year's Gogle I/O conference later this month.
Qnquote

What about N900 users. Can we at least get the pr 1.2 to make us happy :-)

Markus

Tesno

05-12-2010, 02:52 AM

This sucks monkey balls.

nosa101

05-12-2010, 02:58 AM

Quick question,

If flash 10.1 was available for the n900, would it come as part of a firmware upgrade?

Can adobe release it independently?

attila77

05-12-2010, 04:55 AM

Considering it’s part of the firmware image, it would be quite hacky just to drop in a deb. So far, all such upgrades have come as part of a firmware upgrade.

ZogG

05-12-2010, 04:59 AM

people just read the thread - there is proof the page before that it comes to n900. Actually video from flash devs!

nosa101

05-12-2010, 06:48 AM

people just read the thread - there is proof the page before that it comes to n900. Actually video from flash devs!

There was absolutely no need for this

ZogG

05-12-2010, 06:52 AM

There was absolutely no need for this

the link was on first page and last one - but there were still people (at the same page) posting after it - "it sucks" "no flash" and so on

zwer

05-12-2010, 07:01 AM

Have you missed the tweet from Qole from a week ago saying that he got an info from an inside source at Nokia that there will be no FP 10.1 for the N900 (at least official)? Adobe MAX conference where it was shortly demoed happened before the N900 was even released to the masses, a lot of things could happen since then...

stefan-78

05-12-2010, 03:00 PM

this is what i found about flash on adobe forum
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/632853

hope someone can sheed some light on the situation

Dave999

05-12-2010, 03:03 PM

thats true that maemo won't get flash 10.1 in the first phase.

never?? don't know.

mehdiE

05-12-2010, 03:13 PM

Qole (http://maemo.org/profile/view/qole/) announced on Twitter (http://twitter.com/qole/status/13406918358) a week ago that Flash 10 would never come to the N900.

While qole isn't a Nokia or Adobe employee, he's been twice a member of the Maemo Community Council and isn't the kind of person to spread baseless rumours. So I'd say, it looks toast for Flash 10.

GameboyRMH

05-12-2010, 03:18 PM

Wow...that sucks. But isn't MicroB's flash plugin just the ARM version of the Firefox flash plugin?

mthmob

05-12-2010, 03:34 PM

geneven

05-12-2010, 03:38 PM

Is Nokia/Maemo an Open Screen Project partner? The implication in the link is that if they are, they have a kit enabling them to port the new flash version.

samuch

05-12-2010, 03:39 PM

Let's be honest, Flash was never fast on the N900. I'm sure many will disagree but I have no idea what Flash sites they are running. I'm using an overclocked N900 and even with everything else closed BUT the browser it's still choppy.

So, I'm not sure how 10 would be any help regardless.

bfritsch

05-12-2010, 03:40 PM

Who is that Tam Alan guy?

Is he from Adobe? Doesn't seem to be an admin or anything like that on the forum.

edit: oops, he's a senior product manager at Adobe. guess he knows what he's talking about.

MohammadAG

05-12-2010, 03:44 PM

joshv06

05-12-2010, 04:05 PM

Does anyone have actual proof that Flash 10.1 will not come to Maemo5 or is it just rumors?

rpgAmazon

05-12-2010, 04:09 PM

Lovely. So our "internet table" with "full browsing experience" will, luckily, follow the Steve way or simply stay out of the game...
Then, "step 5 of 5" is... iPhone 4g?

Laughing Man

05-12-2010, 04:11 PM

Lovely. So our "internet table" with "full browsing experience" will, luckily, follow the Steve way or simply stay out of the game...
Then, "step 5 of 5" is... iPhone 4g?

It's Android if Nokia doesn't get their act in order. :p

Why have HTML5 only when you can do HTML5 and Flash.

clasificado

05-12-2010, 04:11 PM

Lovely. So our "internet table" with "full browsing experience" will, luckily, follow the Steve way or simply stay out of the game...
Then, "step 5 of 5" is... iPhone 4g?

I dont get your point: so as you dont have flash 10 here, you will buy a device that has no flash at all?

slaapliedje

05-12-2010, 04:15 PM

Nokia ARE on the Open Screen Project

http://www.openscreenproject.org/partners/current_partners.html

So quite possibly Flash 10.1 will be included in PR1.2, since the rumor is now that we won't get it until after May, and somewhere else I read that May is when Android will get Flash 10.1 and June is when Maemo 5 would.

slaapliedje

mehdiE

05-12-2010, 04:20 PM

Does anyone have actual proof that Flash 10.1 will not come to Maemo5 or is it just rumors?

AFAIK, Nokia never made any official announcement regarding Flash 10.

The only official announcement on Adobe's part came from their CTO in October last year when he demonstrated a pre-release version of Flash 10 running on the N900 and mentioned that it would be coming to "Nokia smartphones" in 2010: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pee3nT4bPw4 He didn't explicitly say "N900" and the 2010 deadline is as broad as it gets.

Again AFAIK, Adobe never made any other official statements regarding Flash 10 on the N900.

sjgadsby

05-12-2010, 04:23 PM

The thread "latest news about flash 10" with ten posts has been merged into this thread.

danramos

05-12-2010, 04:27 PM

Three words: Fixed in Harmatten

(drink)

rpgAmazon

05-12-2010, 04:28 PM

I dont get your point: so as you dont have flash 10 here, you will buy a device that has no flash at all?

If Flash survives Apple strike, Flash sites will need v10... so if rumor is true, bye full browsing experience. How many months do you spec browsing with v9 versions?
If Flash survive, but we sticked at v9, Apple rules.
If Flash dies, Apple rules.
If Flash survive and v10, PERHAPS maemo (android) rules.
(sorry, my bad english hitting me again)

slaapliedje

05-12-2010, 04:36 PM

So that my post doesn't disappear due to the thread merge.

The answer from Adobe was;

"Adobe provides a porting kit and Linux-based reference implementation to Open Screen Project partners to allow them to port Flash Player 10.1 to other platforms."

According to the Open Screen Project's page (http://www.openscreenproject.org);

http://www.openscreenproject.org/partners/current_partners.html

Nokia IS one of the Open Screen Project partners.

So they should have the porting kit and the Linux based reference implementation. So theoretically they only need to port it, and have the means to do so.

At this point I would say that Flash 10.1 is in Nokia's court now, and whether they wish to release it to us, the hopeful N900 customers, is up in the air.

I still tend to think that they are trying to fit it in with the PR1.2 release.

slaapliedje

rpgAmazon

05-12-2010, 04:41 PM

danramos

05-12-2010, 04:48 PM

If Flash survives Apple strike, Flash sites will need v10... so if rumor is true, bye full browsing experience. How many months do you spec browsing with v9 versions?
If Flash survive, but we sticked at v9, Apple rules.
If Flash dies, Apple rules.
If Flash survive and v10, PERHAPS maemo (android) rules.
(sorry, my bad english hitting me again)

That appears severely flawed and leaves out the possibility that if Flash dies, the WEB rules (HTML5) and everyone but Adobe wins.

rpgAmazon

05-12-2010, 04:55 PM

That appears severely flawed and leaves out the possibility that if Flash dies, the WEB rules (HTML5) and everyone but Adobe wins.

Yes. But few, very few weeks ago, a lot of people were "astonished" reading Steve letter...
Nokia "planning" and "steps" over years ending in nothing.
Jobs, "writing a letter", turn the net to his way.
(sorry again, this time I can't write in english what I want to "say")

gerbick

05-12-2010, 05:02 PM

Yes. But few, very few weeks ago, a lot of people were "astonished" reading Steve letter..

I wasn't. Last year when Gianduja was shown off, I knew it would get appropriated for something that would compete with Flash more than likely.

Let's be honest. Gianduja sits on top of WebObjects, which they control... which works with part of a project they inject code into, Webkit.

This is highly reminiscent of the Adobe Premiere support on OS X being dropped in 2003 because all of a sudden, Adobe had Shake, Motion and a few iterations of Final Cut (pro, HD, "personal") - background info here (http://www.macworld.com/article/54661/2007/01/premiere.html).

If javaScript, HTML5 and Apple's stuff are to be the future, the future seems to be in the hand of lesser people. Which, bothers me.

Flash Player 10 not showing up on the N900 would be close to a travesty - it's been shown at least once in near beta form already. I think it's time Nokia gives some incentives to these companies to continue developing on prior (Maemo5 vs. MeeGo) platforms while planning on future (MeeGo) platforms or else... more stuff like this will happen in the future with other vendors.

My 2 cents.

mikecomputing

05-12-2010, 05:04 PM

danramos

05-12-2010, 05:23 PM

Yes. But few, very few weeks ago, a lot of people were "astonished" reading Steve letter...
Nokia "planning" and "steps" over years ending in nothing.
Jobs, "writing a letter", turn the net to his way.
(sorry again, this time I can't write in english what I want to "say")

Your English is relatively fine, by the way, and understandable. :) Don't keep apologizing. I've seen far worse.

You make a good point. Jobs needs only say the word and the web is healed, by most published accounts. In this particular topic, I agree with his sentiment so I'm glad that he can manage to move this forward where a lame has-been like Nokia spouts a lot of nice things that we want to hear but follows through on nearly none of it.

In a way I agree with u but still the fact is Flash sucks hell atleast in Linux. Also it eats CPU on both desktop and mobile platform.

However maybe we will see Flash 10.1 in PR 1.2 maybe its why we have waited soo long for PR1.2 cause it could be strategy right direction for nokia do so?

We can always wait and see...

Near as I can tell, Flash sucks on EVERY platform and it's been a particularly excellent vector for exploits too. Given their track records for responsibility, I'd trust the browser coders to do a better job of plugging their holes than Adobe. I'm behind HTML5 all the way for all the right reasons.

I already cynicized (I made it a VERB now!) enough about Flash on 1.2. In a bet, I'd wager against the likelihood that it'll show up.

chowdahhead

05-12-2010, 05:42 PM

Well Meego/Maemo6/Harmatten having Flash 10.1 is pretty much a certainty. If Nokia doesn't provide an official update for the n900, I suspect the libflashplayer.so could be copied onto the n900 from the Meego image, given that it's the same build and hardware target. It's also quite possible that Adobe could distribute the library via the OVI store, since it's really in their interest to have compatibility among as many devices as possible. So even if Nokia were to issue an announcement that Flash 10.1 isn't being offered for the n900, it wouldn't be the proverbial nail-in-the-coffin.

I'll also say that we're not just dealing with HTML5 vs. Flash; Microsoft is still really pushing Silverlight, and I'd hate to see that gain any more traction than it has.

gerbick

05-12-2010, 05:58 PM

... Microsoft is still really pushing Silverlight, and I'd hate to see that gain any more traction than it has.

Care to explain why?

danramos

05-12-2010, 06:22 PM

Care to explain why?

Probably for all the same reasons we don't want to see Flash adoption that we've pointed out (slow, resource hogging, vector point for exploits, closed-source, slow attention to plugging exploits/bugs, legal issues, etc.). With Silverlight, probably more so, given Microsoft's record.

jakiman

05-12-2010, 06:32 PM

If it is good technology, friendly for developers/users and cheap/free, I don't care who the "owner" or the "controller" is.
Most things in life, something that has a "ruler" or a "dictator" usually succeed more than having no one and everyone being equal.

gerbick

05-12-2010, 06:38 PM

danramos

05-12-2010, 06:42 PM

Dammit. Now you've gon' and given some excuses.

I'm genuinely interested in the disgust over plugin based content. It's not a mandatory install. And on Maemo, you better believe somebody will find a way to turn it off.

And scarily enough... I actually like Silverlight's mobile implementation for video and animations.

Are they excuses... or reasons?

gerbick

05-12-2010, 06:47 PM

Are they excuses... or reasons?

At this stage of the game, I'd venture that's the same thing.

chowdahhead

05-12-2010, 07:18 PM

There may be some merits to the technology but the problem with Silverlight is support--the same reason people are upset in this thread. Microsoft has a history of leveraging their strength in one division to propagate their position in another. The internet is a great example; it's the reason for the anti-trust cases brought against them by the US DOJ and the EU. If Silverlight had the marketshare that Flash currently has, do you really think Microsoft would offer support without any deference to platform? Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but I don't think competitors to WinMobile would be equivalently supported. At least Adobe has an interest in supporting as many devices as they can equally.

nosa101

05-12-2010, 07:46 PM

Say, for business reasons, Nokia doesn't give us flash 10.1. Can the maemo community be given the porting kit?

zwer

05-13-2010, 02:28 AM

Probably for all the same reasons we don't want to see Flash adoption that we've pointed out (slow, resource hogging, vector point for exploits, closed-source, slow attention to plugging exploits/bugs, legal issues, etc.). With Silverlight, probably more so, given Microsoft's record.

Slow & resource hogging? HTML/JS combo is even more, in any given browser at that. HERE (http://vimeo.com/10553088) is a direct comparison on a mobile platform, and on desktops its even more drastic but people hardly notice given the amount of CPU power computers of today have. AVM2 beats any JSVM out there every single time in both performance/watt ratio and speed of execution. By the account of slow & resource hogging we could banish all web browsers and return to the good old days of BBS & ANSI graphics.

Vector point for exploits? To this day, there was only one exploit that could potentially be exploited in a real world scenario, and it was patched less than a week after its discovery (so much of slow attention to plugging exploits/bugs, btw.). It was discovered on a minor version that was not directly distributed and there were only a several thousand downloads of that version before the fix. So far there has been no reports of anyone successfully gaining a control over a potential victims' computer via the Flash Player. All the browsers, including Mozilla published ones (and Mozilla claims to have security as their paramount concern), and don't even get me started on IE and Safari, have a far worse track record in that department.

Closed-source? HERE (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=615793#post615793) is what is closed-source about Flash and what isn't. Bottom line - Flash is an open platform and for the most part open-source technology, but Adobe is still in a position to control it. Even if you are a FOSS purist, there is a good chance that you are using at least some completely closed-source software like graphic drivers, and I don't see much moaning about that. When did the paradigm shift occurred from `we prefer free and open-source, but closed-source and commercial is fine if it works properly` to `death to every single commercial piece of software`? Or is it only applicable when it comes to Adobe? Why not bash Nokia and Maemo for that reason - Maemo platform is closed-source in more aspects than it is the Flash platform after all. Or let us shun Autodesk for not providing sources for any aspect of their software on Linux, yeah, that will teach them... to steer away from Linux for good.

I really hate to came out as an Adobe/Flash apologist, I honestly am not, but the amount of FUD being spread about the Flash platform, especially after Cupertino announced `no Flash on our iAmMagicalDevices`, is so staggering that somebody has to be `that guy` to level the field. At this point it really isn't about the platform itself, and especially not about Adobe (I couldn't care less if any company would go bankrupt as soon as tomorrow), it's about the right of choice that I don't want to be taken away because of some false accusations against a technology most people bash while not knowing a single thing about it. Because if we do that today for Adobe Flash, we could do that tomorrow for Java, or for Unity3D, or even JavaScript and CSS... I don't like Microsoft Silverlight at all, mainly because they really don't care about any platform other than their own, but I will defend their right to exist on the web as much as I will for Adobes', because HTML/JS just isn't good enough, and probably never will be. Restricting the technology only stifles the creativity, and I don't want to be a part of that movement - there is another company that's already leading at that 'philosophy' and they have far better marketers and PRs to push their agenda, thus a good amount of followers accordingly - I'd rather be on the other side of this `debate`.

Anyway, the last paragraph of my last post (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=654515#post654515) is where I stand... And I challenge anyone to come up with some real arguments against that (yes, there are some), and when I say real I mean fact and reality based, not FUD based.

That's all I have to say about that.

bfritsch

05-13-2010, 05:41 AM

Just a side note -

The TBS website that Adobe used to demonstrate "Flash 10.1" on the N900 back in October runs just fine with the Micro b as is.

Funny...

fatalsaint

05-13-2010, 09:55 AM

Closed-source? HERE (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=615793#post615793) is what is closed-source about Flash and what isn't. Bottom line - Flash is an open platform and for the most part open-source technology, but Adobe is still in a position to control it. Even if you are a FOSS purist, there is a good chance that you are using at least some completely closed-source software like graphic drivers, and I don't see much moaning about that.

I do; quite often in fact. Especially with regards to NVIDIA and their closed drivers. People complain all the time about making that open.

AMD gets more praise; as they have been directly contributing ('http://ati.amd.com/products/catalyst/linux.html#4') to the open source radeon drivers and they opened the 3D specs of the older designs so that open source drivers could be built. They are still closed for the latest drivers (due to third party NDA stuff); but IIRC their intention was to catch up the OSS drivers to their proprietary ones and fade out the proprietary altogether.

So; methinks you just don't hang around the right circles.

zwer

05-13-2010, 10:13 AM

Well, it is true that I am not a FOSS purist, otherwise I wouldn't be using Maemo in the first place, but the amount of bit.ching and moaning about Flash being closed-source (where it actually isn't for the most part, and what matters more, it's open in the crucial areas (format, compiler and virtual machine)) dwarfs the one that you can hear about proprietary drivers, codecs and libraries. At least at the places of interwebs that I hold dear to me - I try to stay away from any purist, fundamentalist, zealot, fanboi and such communities as those are, IMHO, some real-deal wackos. The only opinion I want to hear from those is the one they are giving to their parole officer or appointed psychiatrist when trying to get out of a nut-house for a weekend.

Yes, in a perfect world, everything would be FOSS, but a perfect world does not exist, nor will it ever, and I don't know about you, but I'm not ready to throw away 90 of the tech out there just because some company might have a say in it. Especially not when some other company is actually running a FUD crusade against that company.

fatalsaint

05-13-2010, 10:28 AM

Yes, in a perfect world, everything would be FOSS, but a perfect world does not exist, nor will it ever, and I don't know about you, but I'm not ready to throw away 90 of the tech out there just because some company might have a say in it. Especially not when some other company is actually running a FUD crusade against that company.

True, the perfect world isn't here - and that's why I use Maemo. I know it's not perfect; but it's the best alternative out there.. and most open compared to competitors. This is also why I'm more interested in seeing MeeGo 1.0 with a UI (hopefully this month) more than I care to see PR1.2.

I personally hate Flash because it's slow, bogs down my browser, and I think it's totally unnecessary to design an entire website in it.

I dunno about benchmarks; but I can tell you every time I load a straight static HTML page vs an all-flash interactive page: the HTML will be done first. Especially on slower connections.

I also don't like that there isn't really any proper "free" replacements for Flash. I hate monopolies; and Adobe basically has the monopoly on browser-based games and videos thanks to Hulu and Youtube and such using entirely Flash.

So, while I personally hate flash, and on both my desktop and now my N900 I have the flashblock stuff on there - I am not against, and in fact will be quite annoyed if Flash 10.1 doesn't come to the N900. Especially when it was already demo'd on it; and that Hulu does not work currently because it has moved to 10.1. This illustrates a reason why I hate there is no alternative to it.

The option should be there. Same logic I apply to Cedega/CXOffice/Wine. I support all those projects even though people scream we just "help" companies not develop for linux. They may be right; but I see no reason I should have to suffer and not be able to do what I want/need to do just because companies didn't develop for linux. So, I'm not a purist or zealot by any means, but I do have my ideals. Where possible; I'll avoid using proprietary SW, and will always advocate a more open approach to SW development.

SD.

05-13-2010, 11:00 AM

Safari Mobile isn't crippled because lack of Flash, it's crippled by lack of plugin support.

Plugin support has been a staple in PC browsing for 14 years. All mobile browsers should support NPAPI or ActiveX just like their desktop counterparts. That way, people would have the option to choose whether they want to use Flash or any other plugin for that matter.

The OBJECT tag was pretty much invented for plugins and the W3C even mentions plugins as a use for that tag. HTML5 will still have the OBJECT tag whenever it becomes standardized. There's no deprecation movement going on in regards to that.

I do think Mozilla and companies that make other browsers should add support to filter plugins to domain whitelists, and also add the option for "Click to load" instead of just having all plugins auto-load. Both could even help with security...

devu

05-13-2010, 11:16 AM

looks like flash 10.1 mobile might finally bring some performance on our beloved mobile devices

http://www.osnews.com/story/23275/Adobe_Shows_Off_Flash_10_1_on_Android_Impresses

hopefully it'll come for maemo5 as well....

Not "might" it will for sure! :)

And many people saying is only about Video. No! Not only.
Even vector content will be tessellate and powered by GPU as well.

and here is another one answer to the Job's lies

http://www.adobe.com/choice/flash.html

Chrome

05-13-2010, 11:20 AM

Can anyone make a tl;dr version of this thread :p

Actually is there a 1% chance for N900 to get flash 10.1? Do we have a reason to doubt what Qole said?

devu

05-13-2010, 11:23 AM

Safari Mobile isn't crippled because lack of Flash, it's crippled by lack of plugin support.

Here is why Flash Player engineers have problem with flash on Safari

http://blog.kaourantin.net/?p=81

And in this case, yes is not the best coded browser on the world.
I am only wondering what issues we can have regarding to this article when mainly using webKit here? Which is core of Safari isn't it? Is any alternative available?

gom4381

05-13-2010, 11:35 AM

So they show off a working version of flash 10 on the n900... and then they dont release it... even though they just have it laying around...

Hmm.. now i hope flash will crash and burn because of html5, and i hope adobe will go bankrupt.. Then we can finally get rid of pdf aswell... :)

No I think you can blame nokia for this debacle. Nobody is developing commercial grade applications for N900 other than Sygic and Joikuspot. This was a step 4 out of 5 device and all the company's see that and don't want to develop. Here is the best line. "Wait for pr 1.2 and the QT update. Then companies will start to come." Really?

sophocha

05-13-2010, 12:20 PM

I think the logical explanation would be that since N8 and the rest of the upcoming phones WILL have Flash 10.1, it would be a shame to have an older phone in the market with a 'new' feature....it will hurt their sellings.....so, they are waiting for the new phones to come around and then give the update to the people.....so expect Flash 10.1 after September....maybe during Christmas time.....ehehe

Rushmore

05-13-2010, 12:41 PM

Not sure on all the hate about Flash. N900 with 800mhz OC does a pretty good job with full Flash, plays vids and a lot of games very well, in a phone form factor device.

Incredible has Flash Lite 4 and it works great with the Dolphin browser, but for some reason, the function is minimal with the stock browser. Strange that Dolphin plays more content and games than with the stock.

Anyhoo'- Flash Lite 4 does a good job and is Flash 10.1 lite, without GPU function. Flash 10.1 with gpu should be very good.

As posted before, the N900 is the only device that combines the power and inputs (stylus, mouse mode, keyboard) to handle all Flash 10.1 content- yet is not getting it.

BTW, Flash Lite 4 performs better than 9.4 on N900 does. DIfferent OS's and chipsets, but 3430 at 800mhz should be similar to the snap at 1ghz. Also, Maemo should be more efficient than Android.

Kind of moot though, since no keyboard on Inc. Irony.

Crazy.

Laughing Man

05-13-2010, 12:51 PM

I have an increasing feeling that it's not Adobe's end that's the problem. That it's Nokia's end that is why we may not be seeing Flash 10 on the N900.

Rushmore

05-13-2010, 12:55 PM

I have an increasing feeling that it's not Adobe's end that's the problem. That it's Nokia's end that is why we may not be seeing Flash 10 on the N900.

Heck, at least throw the N900 users a bone and give them Flash Lite 4. Vids and games work fine and more content works, since Flash 10.1 compliant.

How hard to incorporate Flash Lite 4? Same effort as 10.1?

Opera on the older Archos 5 has Flash Lite 3 built into the browser. Be cool if we could get Opera with Flash Lite 4 bulit in. Based on Incredible's performace with Lite 4, it is better than what we have now (for games and vids, at least).

attila77

05-13-2010, 01:23 PM

I think the logical explanation would be that since N8 and the rest of the upcoming phones WILL have Flash 10.1, it would be a shame to have an older phone in the market with a 'new' feature....it will hurt their sellings.....

There is no upcoming phone in the N900’s class for roughly 6 more months. So if the new Flash is not released to the N900 and it does become widely available in June, it’s an autogoal, as AFAIK there will be no high-end Cortex class Nokia phone until the Harmattan device. The N8 and other current-gen Symbian phones do not have the proper browser and horsepower background to take full advantage of Flash 10, so there is no point in protecting them from other Nokia products. Not to mention that the N900 is one of the most expensive Nokia phones, so there is actually a business interest in selling them with Flash 10. Because, you now, they still ARE selling N900s. I know what Qole tweeted, but it still does not make sense no matter how I look at it.

felbutss

05-14-2010, 01:41 AM

http://nokia-n900.com/flash-player-10-1-on-nokia-n900/

flash 10.1 is coming to the n900.

so no more yukky flash 9. no GPU support

Chrome

05-14-2010, 02:03 AM

http://nokia-n900.com/flash-player-10-1-on-nokia-n900/

flash 10.1 is coming to the n900.

so no more yukky flash 9. no GPU support

Hope you noticed that article is 6 months old.

HellFlyer

05-14-2010, 02:07 AM

http://nokia-n900.com/flash-player-10-1-on-nokia-n900/

flash 10.1 is coming to the n900.

so no more yukky flash 9. no GPU support

1 November 2009 :D

its an old video they wont give N900 flash 10.1:p

felbutss

05-14-2010, 02:35 AM

ye i know. where does it say that the n900 will never get 10.1????? if they r testing the n900 then ..... lol think about it

HellFlyer

05-14-2010, 02:45 AM

ye i know. Where does it say that the n900 will never get 10.1????? If they r testing the n900 then ..... Lol think about it

m e e g o :)

un-named_user

05-14-2010, 03:10 AM

There is no upcoming phone in the N900’s class for roughly 6 more months. So if the new Flash is not released to the N900 and it does become widely available in June, it’s an autogoal, as AFAIK there will be no high-end Cortex class Nokia phone until the Harmattan device. The N8 and other current-gen Symbian phones do not have the proper browser and horsepower background to take full advantage of Flash 10, so there is no point in protecting them from other Nokia products. Not to mention that the N900 is one of the most expensive Nokia phones, so there is actually a business interest in selling them with Flash 10. Because, you now, they still ARE selling N900s. I know what Qole tweeted, but it still does not make sense no matter how I look at it.

I have no reason to doubt qole or be at tanget to your thinking.

But I'm going to guess that its a case of flash not coming to Maemo 5 rather than the N900. Yes, I know that the N900 is still being sold, but that is of no relevance in this regard. A quick look at the enhancement requests handling in Bugzilla is proof enough of how much effort is being put in to enhace Maemo 5.

Unless the implementation effort put in to port 10.1 to Maemo 5 also helps for Meego/Harmattan. I don't see it happening.

Look at any other platform getting the update. Been quite vocal, haven't they? But, if Nokia is going to get it done, then if nothing else they could learn to communicate better to their end users.

sophocha

05-14-2010, 03:15 AM

There is no upcoming phone in the N900’s class for roughly 6 more months. So if the new Flash is not released to the N900 and it does become widely available in June, it’s an autogoal, as AFAIK there will be no high-end Cortex class Nokia phone until the Harmattan device. The N8 and other current-gen Symbian phones do not have the proper browser and horsepower background to take full advantage of Flash 10, so there is no point in protecting them from other Nokia products. Not to mention that the N900 is one of the most expensive Nokia phones, so there is actually a business interest in selling them with Flash 10. Because, you now, they still ARE selling N900s. I know what Qole tweeted, but it still does not make sense no matter how I look at it.

N900 was just a testing device for the next platform....thats what I feel....same think happened with the 5800....no kinetic scrolling because it would be the same product as their newer 5530 or even the N97....when they sold enough 5530 they released the new firmware with kinetic scrolling for the old 5800....its all about marketing....trust me....in the same manner,they wont care about the N900...new products would be in the market with new features...we have the Meego factor as well.....so flash 10.1 will be released with Meego and geniuses from this forum will port it to the N900 and everybody will be happy.

attila77

05-14-2010, 03:40 AM

This reasoning would make sense if the new phones would cost more than the N900 and have a rougly equivalent hardware. But they don’t. All symbian phones have weaker CPU-s and cost less than the N900 (except the N97, which is roughly the same). And if they wait for MeeGo, that means 6 months of Android Flash 10.1 dominance, which, again, will lower the sales of ALL high-end Nokia phones. No, seriously, it makes no business sense.

digital909

05-14-2010, 04:46 AM

No, it doesn't make any business sense at all. I am wondering, with my conspiracy theory head on, if Nokia and Adobe haven't said let's not release it officially, have one of the meamo bods port it, then put it around that, hey, contrary to what Jobs said it's so open a hacker ported it to the N900.

Aside from that, I genuinely find it totally depressing that the wonderful invention that is the internet is now going through what seems like a turf war. Screw this planet sometimes, and the selfish people on it. It depresses me. Maybe I'm just becoming an old hippie but seriously, all this crap needs to stop.

If we don't get flash 10 one way or another I'll probably run any other OS that gives me full fat web. That's chiefly why I bought the N900, all the other lovely features are great. But I want a full browser. We shall see!

impaler

05-14-2010, 04:51 AM

Rushmore

05-14-2010, 09:26 AM

you may have a point HellFlyer, looks like we may have to wait till Meego for 10.1 or even a slim chance of ever having Air. I am quite annoyed the n900 is everything I want in a phone and flash is a huge reason I purchased one recently.

Before buying the n900 I saw that damn demo vid in youtube and assumed the old version 9 could be updated. I didn't bother searching here for flash player 10 stuff. Hope I don't have to switch to Android or something just to use the latest flash and air. After showing the world that demo I really think they should finish the development on the platform they teased us on.

Here is me crossing my fingers with the rest of you :)

I agree it sux and part of my reason of keeping the N900 was netbook function. I now have an Incredible, which plays Flash content better than the N900 and it "just" has Flash Lite 4.

"Better" is relative, since not many games work, due to no keyboard (need arrow keys for a lot of Flash games). The games play smoother though- again moot, since controls suck on Incredible (by default).

N900 plays MAME too good to give up on though :) Raiden 2 and Hot Shots Golf at full FPS are also nice :)

Update:

The game emulators are also nice, due to keyboard.... No Flash 10.1..... why Nokia? You have betraaaaaayed us :eek:

giannoug

05-14-2010, 09:34 AM

In a perfect world, Nokia will include Flash 10.1 in the upcoming PR1.2 update. Everyone will be shoked, all the blogs will fill with exclusive videos and news about it.

But...

attila77

05-14-2010, 10:17 AM

How about we wait for Adobe to release Flash 10.1 *first* and *then* start the national t.m.o. hobby ? :D

HellFlyer

05-14-2010, 12:18 PM

In a perfect world, Nokia will include Flash 10.1 in the upcoming PR1.2 update. Everyone will be shoked, all the blogs will fill with exclusive videos and news about it.

But...

BUT In a perfect world , Nokia wouldn't exist because its not perfect along with flash player and PR 1.2 :)

Only green grass and unicorns :rolleyes:

Laughing Man

05-14-2010, 12:32 PM

I have a suspicion that we'll see Flash 10.1 in Meego. Whether it shows up in the Meego that the N900 will be getting is up in the air though.

The reason why I said it's up in the air is because Nokia has said some users may want to dual boot Meego, some may choose to stay with Maemo5, etc.. And so far Qgil has said that there will be a version of Meego with full support for hardware (but note he didn't say anything about software and what not).

slaapliedje

05-14-2010, 12:32 PM

BUT In a perfect world , Nokia wouldn't exist because its not perfect along with flash player and PR 1.2 :)

Only green grass and unicorns :rolleyes:

Green grass and unicorns for all!!!

Seriously though, I agree with the previous post, Flash 10.1 isn't even freaking out for Desktop systems yet. It's still at RC.

I've been waiting for Flash 10.1 for a long time now (I'm hoping that the flash operator panel will work a lot better and not suck so much power).

They'd better finally say that the 64bit Linux plugin is also finally a stable release, instead of it still being considered 'alpha' even though I have far less problems with that than running nspluginwrapper.

But more on topic, I still think that Nokia is working hard on finishing it up and is going to include it with PR1.2, since they ARE doing a lot of browser updates, etc.

slaapliedje

rahulg247

05-14-2010, 12:34 PM

I can't see how they can deny us flash 10.1 on what is marketed as a pocket computer with phone functions. Now the smartphones are meant to have a more desktop like browsing experience then a pocket computer??!!!

HellFlyer

05-14-2010, 12:47 PM

Green grass and unicorns for all!!!

Seriously though, I agree with the previous post, Flash 10.1 isn't even freaking out for Desktop systems yet. It's still at RC.

I've been waiting for Flash 10.1 for a long time now (I'm hoping that the flash operator panel will work a lot better and not suck so much power).

They'd better finally say that the 64bit Linux plugin is also finally a stable release, instead of it still being considered 'alpha' even though I have far less problems with that than running nspluginwrapper.

But more on topic, I still think that Nokia is working hard on finishing it up and is going to include it with PR1.2, since they ARE doing a lot of browser updates, etc.

slaapliedje

Sorry to disappoint you but PR 1.2 wont include Flash 10.1 that's for sure , use maemo wiki to see all changes/upgrades it brings :)

If I remember correctly it updates Flash 9.0.115 to 9.0.124 but that's it

Also RC for desktops has nothing to do with this , there are different platforms x86 and ARM are not compatible besides Adobe shown its dislike to Linux based systems in the past

slaapliedje

05-14-2010, 01:08 PM

Sorry to disappoint you but PR 1.2 wont include Flash 10.1 that's for sure , use maemo wiki to see all changes/upgrades it brings :)

But then I couldn't assume things like so many others here do!!!

Doesn't matter if it's not in the change logs, since the libflashplayer.so file is part of the adobe-flashplayer package. Yes, dpkg -S is very useful :D

Also RC for desktops has nothing to do with this , there are different platforms x86 and ARM are not compatible besides Adobe shown its dislike to Linux based systems in the past

This I know as well, at least as far as the difference between ARM and x86, but which do you think the FINAL release of Flash 10.1 will come out for? Here's a hint... it's not going to be ARM.

Either they'll release them simultaneously, or the x86 version will be released first.

If people would just research things....

Here are the facts as we have them.

Adobe says "well anyone who is a partner of the Open Screen Project has been given the porting kit for Flash 10.1" Nokia is a partner of the Open Screen Project.

So it's really up to Nokia if Flash comes out for the N900. And really it comes down to is it worth it to Nokia? Well how much of a ***** slap would they get from their customers if they did this?

Realistically, Maemo 5 should be more like it's Debian roots, where they can update different packages at different times. But since PR1.2 is a major over haul of key libraries, it's almost more of a difference between Debian Etch and Debian Lenny. Unfortunately the Maemo upgrade package is more like a metapackage, where it covers a lot of different packages that aren't installable individually. I understand the why, but doesn't mean I have to like it.

On another point, running ldd /usr/lib/browser/plugins/libflashplayer.so in your terminal will show you what the flash player depends upon.

Sadly the dependencies are far higher than they are on my Arch Linux box's version of 10.0.

There are dependencies upon gtk, pulse, gstreamer? Odd.

slaapliedje

slaapliedje

05-14-2010, 01:18 PM

Sorry to disappoint you but PR 1.2 wont include Flash 10.1 that's for sure , use maemo wiki to see all changes/upgrades it brings :)

If I remember correctly it updates Flash 9.0.115 to 9.0.124 but that's it

Also RC for desktops has nothing to do with this , there are different platforms x86 and ARM are not compatible besides Adobe shown its dislike to Linux based systems in the past

Been trying to find the wiki entry where it talked about the entries (last time I looked at it was when it was first created a few months back)

Care to share the link? Was it removed?

slaapliedje

Found it. http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.2 Doesn't list anything about the flash version AND shows that the last time it was updated was March 22nd, which is over a month ago.

HellFlyer

05-14-2010, 02:14 PM

Been trying to find the wiki entry where it talked about the entries (last time I looked at it was when it was first created a few months back)

Care to share the link? Was it removed?

slaapliedje

Found it. http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.2 Doesn't list anything about the flash version AND shows that the last time it was updated was March 22nd, which is over a month ago.

Yeah I looked only here not the wiki http://repository.maemo.org/stable/fremantle/maemo5.0_update4_vs_maemo5.0_update5_content_chang es.html

Not sure but try to look here ,and the flash player version post was in leaked PR 1.2 as i remember , look in leaked PR 1.2 thread it might be there:)

impaler

05-14-2010, 09:54 PM

So it's really up to Nokia if Flash comes out for the N900. And really it comes down to is it worth it to Nokia? Well how much of a ***** slap would they get from their customers if they did this?

Well going by this thread alone I am sure many can be vocal enough about it. The fact is that we have already spent the money, they should pay us back by keeping up with software updates including flash. IMHO It is a major part of the "unique" full web experience of this platform.

What I would like to see is the opensource as3 Air based IDE http://code.google.com/p/minibuilder/ working on this platform. I guess there are even more barriers I have no idea about for that even. Anyone see that ever being a reality?

neotalk

05-27-2010, 10:32 AM

devu

05-27-2010, 10:37 AM

Try this :)

http://www.blup.fr/wp-content/uploads/2005_07_21_shrek_cat_no_hotlink_please.jpg

oweng

05-27-2010, 10:40 AM

Well to make matters worse, some of us are having major issues with flash on pr 1.2

Please see
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53800
and chip in with useful suggestions.

Thanks

sadfist

05-27-2010, 10:42 AM

I emailed nokia in febuary and was assured of 3 things...fully working pc suite voice with sat nav and flash 10.1 ....i emailed them about 3 weeks ago about this and they never replied....i resent the email 2 weeks ago and they never replied. I have sent another email today. I have also spent over 2 hours on hold this week trying to speak with someone at nokia care....no one answered......lol....i dont think they wanna talk to me?

Did you quote the previous assurances you received in your email? Did they actually assure you those things were coming? If you call you should ask to speak to a supervisor, and then probably ask to be put in touch with their supervisor. I'm sure no one will give you a concrete answer about those things (and if they do they probably don't know what they're talking about), but that kind of service is unacceptable. Raise hell!

das_schlumpfie

05-27-2010, 11:05 AM

i guess fanboys can no long user the 'this is not a phone, its a computer with phone function' excuse anymore.

Frappacino

05-27-2010, 12:37 PM

I think there needs to be a forum sticky about this - for all intents and purposes the n900 has NO flash support. Claiming otherwise is just lying and misleading.

sjgadsby

05-27-2010, 12:41 PM

...for all intents and purposes the n900 has NO flash support. Claiming otherwise is just lying and misleading.

I don't follow your logic.

nosa101

05-27-2010, 12:43 PM

I think there needs to be a forum sticky about this - for all intents and purposes the n900 has NO flash support. Claiming otherwise is just lying and misleading.

Compared to other Nokia devices, including the n8, the n900 has the most advanced flash. Apart from the Nexus 1, no other device has flash 10.1

cfh11

05-27-2010, 12:46 PM

Compared to other Nokia devices, including the n8, the n900 has the most advanced flash. Apart from the Nexus 1, no other device has flash 10.1

And even that it is a beta. I agree that it would be a travesty if 10.1 does not come to the n900, but lets hold off on the FUD until a full public release comes out for mobile.

Frappacino

05-27-2010, 01:06 PM

Sites that change over to flash 10.1 are now starting to block browsers that do not have flash 10.1 from accessing their sites.

So even if a browser has flash 9.4, if they are unable to access sites because these sites requrie flash 10.1, then what good is flash 9.4 for ?

Nothing - becuase flash 9.4 will not be able to access such sites, just like browsers with no flash.

if flash 10.1 comes to n900 I will eat my words and kowtow to Nokia in apology.

But given its past pattern of Nokia behaviour... I think the odds are on my side.

Radicalz38

05-27-2010, 01:20 PM

Compared to other Nokia devices, including the n8, the n900 has the most advanced flash. Apart from the Nexus 1, no other device has flash 10.1

isn't flash lite 4.0 based on adobe flash 10?

AtteK0

05-27-2010, 01:21 PM

I hear everyone telling me a "Maemo Pro" told the community that there won´t be a flash upgrade for Maemo 5. Ever.

I have been wondering who is that pro. Where can I find the post? Is the comment really true?

n9000

05-27-2010, 01:25 PM

Im also wondering about this mysterious "Maemo Pro". As far as I know adobe already has shown it on the n900

stlpaul

05-27-2010, 01:26 PM

https://twitter.com/qole/status/13406918358

n9000

05-27-2010, 01:29 PM

https://twitter.com/qole/status/13406918358

What makes that a fact?

AtteK0

05-27-2010, 01:31 PM

That did not really help the fact. Who is this guy anyways? Someone said Qole is not an employee of Nokia.

Again, a message in Twitter is not something to prove a matter this important.

gerbick

05-27-2010, 01:34 PM

Qole is well-respected, rather connected and above all... a very long standing member, developer , contributor to the Maemo platform.

I think your reasoning is rather backwards. Where is the proof that Flash Player 10.1 is indeed coming to the Maemo 5 platform from Nokia? Going after a member that's produced Tear - a browser - and has earned the respect of an entire community over and over doesn't help your cause at all... looks like a witch hunt.

Point that out please, from Nokia. No rumors, no old statements, but proof that it is indeed coming.

malabar

05-27-2010, 01:37 PM

Her ya go try this:

http://qole.org/

sjgadsby

05-27-2010, 01:38 PM

Qole is well-respected, rather connected and above all... a very long standing member, developer , contributor to the Maemo platform.

And he prefers a small "q".

Going after a member that's produced Tear - a browser...

That would be Bundyo. qole just hosted Tear in his repository.

n9000

05-27-2010, 01:43 PM

Strange that a preview of 10.1 is shown on a device, and then (what it seems like) this device is the only one not getting it....

neotalk

05-27-2010, 01:44 PM

I think what everyone would like is a definitive statement from nokia outlying its plans for flash in the n900.

AtteK0

05-27-2010, 01:45 PM

gerbick

05-27-2010, 01:51 PM

And he prefers a small "q".

It was the beginning of the sentence... force of habit.

That would be Bundyo. qole just hosted Tear in his repository.

And I stand corrected. Still cannot deny his level of respect here and this is becoming a witch hunt in the wrong direction.

ysss

05-27-2010, 01:52 PM

@Gerbick

<snip>
Your aggressive comment on how I should not ask questions if the one I am asking about is a veteran here was pretty rough considering the previous fact.
<snip>

I think if you reread Gerbick's post calmly, it doesn't sound aggressive.

gerbick

05-27-2010, 01:54 PM

@Gerbick

What are you saying about witch-hunts? I believe I stated a fairly simple question. A question which interests many of the users of Maemo. Probably all of us...

As you can see I am fairly new here. Many of the new users came here when N900 was published. Your aggressive comment on how I should not ask questions if the one I am asking about is a veteran here was pretty rough considering the previous fact.

So Qole is well in the know of the matters about Maemo development and got some inside information of the 10.1, yet he is not an employee? Can I have your word that all of us here in the forum can trust that one tweet?

As aggressive as you thought I was... your "Who is that" type of comment is equally aggressive. Instead of getting caught up in who said what... how about finding out if the vendor of the product supports or denies what you're stating.

Members of this forum can say all they wish; doesn't make it true or false. However if it comes - or in this case, does not come - from Nokia, then that's the telling part.

Simply stated; you're asking members in a situation where the company (Nokia) is whom you need to inquire.

Thus the use of the word "witch hunt". You're asking the wrong folks.

n9000

05-27-2010, 01:56 PM

alot of bitterness here today, agree with neotalk, will wait for nokias statement on this. I was reading alot of posts about the n900 never getting meego a few days ago.....

Crogge

05-27-2010, 02:00 PM

We can raid the near located Nokia shop's all at once and strike there till we get Flash 10.1, they will be forced then to do it.

AtteK0

05-27-2010, 02:01 PM

As aggressive as you thought I was... your "Who is that" type of comment is equally aggressive. Instead of getting caught up in who said what... how about finding out if the vendor of the product supports or denies what you're stating.

Members of this forum can say all they wish; doesn't make it true or false. However if it comes - or in this case, does not come - from Nokia, then that's the telling part.

Simply stated; you're asking members in a situation where the company (Nokia) is whom you need to inquire.

Thus the use of the word "witch hunt". You're asking the wrong folks.
I believe I really am in the wrong place to let my nerd rage out. Perhaps a MeeGo conference should be a better place to yell at people ("I will avenge you N900!!!1!!")... Nokia employees don´t really read these forums so there is no need to start a revolution no one knows about...

Bratag

05-27-2010, 02:05 PM

He's a witch .qole turned me into a newt.....I got better.

BLIZZARD

05-27-2010, 02:05 PM

PEACE

http://panachecyclewear.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/hand-peace-2.jpg

gerbick

05-27-2010, 02:16 PM

I believe I really am in the wrong place to let my nerd rage out. Perhaps a MeeGo conference should be a better place to yell at people ("I will avenge you N900!!!1!!")... Nokia employees don´t really read these forums so there is no need to start a revolution no one knows about...

Oh dear god... please YouTube that!!

I'm seriously not being aggressive at all. I just think in this case, we all should ask Nokia.

For instance... Cummins Diesel makes engines for Ford in a partnership. If I had a question about their Ford implementation of their diesel engines... I'd go straight to Ford.

How is that applicable? Adobe makes the Maemo/ARM implementation of their ubiquitous (proprietary, et al) Flash Player for Nokia to be used in the Maemo OS. If I have a question, using the aforementioned logic, I would go to Nokia first.

I think a concerted effort would yield better results than a bunch of rabble-rousers not saying pretty much the same thing: "Where's the Adobe Flash Player 10.1, that was shown in alpha or beta form at Adobe MAX last year for the Maemo 5, a product that's out right now?"

TheLongshot

05-27-2010, 02:20 PM

lagonda

05-27-2010, 02:22 PM

I think what everyone would like is a definitive statement from nokia outlying its plans for flash in the n900.

I would like to second this. Some definitive statement from Nokia is needed. One of the reasons I got the N900 was because of is flash support.

AtteK0

05-27-2010, 02:24 PM

Oh dear god... please YouTube that!!

I'm seriously not being aggressive at all. I just think in this case, we all should ask Nokia.

For instance... Cummins Diesel makes engines for Ford in a partnership. If I had a question about their Ford implementation of their diesel engines... I'd go straight to Ford.

How is that applicable? Adobe makes the Maemo/ARM implementation of their ubiquitous (proprietary, et al) Flash Player for Nokia to be used in the Maemo OS. If I have a question, using the aforementioned logic, I would go to Nokia first.

I think a concerted effort would yield better results than a bunch of rabble-rousers not saying pretty much the same thing: "Where's the Adobe Flash Player 10.1, that was shown in alpha or beta form at Adobe MAX last year for the Maemo 5, a product that's out right now?"
The question is how are you going to make anyone listen? Even with a great mass of determined "rage" there probably would just be an answer that "I´m sorry, flash 10.1 is not coming". I am beginning to lose hope after waiting for the flash upgrade to come for Maemo (you can remember the video where flash 10.1 is run in N900?).

For me it is not end of the world. The sales would not go up if they put more money onto developing a dead system... My so called "nerdrage", if you get the joke, was aroused by Nokia being too quiet of the matters. There is no proper link between the community and the developers of Maemo.

ysss

05-27-2010, 02:25 PM

Where's the proof that it is not coming? Even respected members of message boards can end up being wrong. It wouldn't be the first time that it has happened.

The point is that a trusted member of the community heard of this remark from someone that it seems that he trusted enough.

Of course there are other possibilities in this matter... that the statement was misunderstood, or the source was mistaken, or nokia changes their plan for the 'better'...

*shrugs*

sjgadsby

05-27-2010, 02:28 PM

It was the beginning of the sentence... force of habit.

I hadn't intended to direct the "q" correction specifically at you. I have seen many references to "Qole" recently, so I tacked the "small 'q'" fact to your list.

SD.

05-27-2010, 02:30 PM

Anyone notice he says "Flash 10" and not "Flash 10.1"

In all of his tweets about the subject

gerbick

05-27-2010, 02:32 PM

Where's the proof that it is not coming? Even respected members of message boards can end up being wrong. It wouldn't be the first time that it has happened.

I'm still asking... where is the proof that it is coming?

AtteK0

05-27-2010, 02:34 PM

I'm still asking... where is the proof that it is coming?
Now, I am asking, where is the proof it is not coming :rolleyes:

gerbick

05-27-2010, 02:40 PM

Now, I am asking, where is the proof it is not coming :rolleyes:

I'll go with what is known...

Flash Player 10.1 for Android signup (https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_flashplayer10_android_signup). There isn't one for Maemo.

An OS list that has the following (http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/features.html):

Flash Player include: Android, Microsoft Windows Phone 7, Palm webOS, and Symbian S60 V5...

No comment about Maemo at all.

That's all I do know.

Now... where is the proof that it is coming? No room for circular logic; Nokia has no proof. The vendor of the app is showing no signs that Nokia Maemo is a target. And Nokia isn't answering jackshit.

neotalk

05-27-2010, 02:42 PM

i have actually tried to contact nokia about this....i have sent 3 emails over the last 3 weeks and have received no replies. There is also the nokia care helpline....but i would not bother as they do not answer and keep you on hold ....permanently

ossipena

05-27-2010, 02:43 PM

I'll go with what is known...

Flash Player 10.1 for Android signup (https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_flashplayer10_android_signup). There isn't one for Maemo.

An OS list that has the following (http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/features.html):

No comment about Maemo at all.

That's all I do know.
state of maemos flash 10 is pure speculation with those sources.

"there will be no flash 10 to N900" @ nokia conversations or similar official place would be a proof.

gerbick

05-27-2010, 02:45 PM

state of maemos flash 10 is pure speculation with those sources.

"there will be no flash 10 to N900" @ nokia conversations or similar official place would be a proof.

Show me recent statements that it is still coming from Nokia.

n9000

05-27-2010, 02:50 PM

How about alittle bit of optimism??? I find it hard to believe its not going to come to maemo, think we just have to wait alittle longer. I really cant compare maemo to windows or android. Everyone of my friends have those systems, except the ones with iphones

woody14619

05-27-2010, 02:51 PM

Still cannot deny his level of respect here and this is becoming a witch hunt in the wrong direction.

You really need to cool your jets Gerbick. You use charged words and see malicious intent where there quite often is none.

Like it or not, you don't live in a your little N700 village anymore, the N900 has changed this forum from a village into a city. And just like in real life, not everyone knows everyone else by name, especially not the new person in town with fresh tire tracks on their lawn from the moving truck. In fact, most would say calling out a newbie asking questions and saying he's "on a witch hunt" for asking them is disrespectful.

What you call "disrespect" and a "witch hunt" is neither. The OP is a relatively new user, validly questioning why a twitter response from one person (who doesn't work for Nokia) is being considered gospel on this topic. That's not being disrespectful, it's being practical.

He's not saying qole is wrong, or that everyone is an idiot for believing a tweet. This is someone concerned about getting 10.1 support who's trying to figure out where the source of this information is coming from, and how valid it is. And like most people, the answer of "this guy on twitter said it" isn't quite enough to satisfy that answer. Especially when there's no additional information about who qole is, his history here, or why people are placing stock in his take on things.

Nokia has not said a thing about 10.1 in a long while. qole has said (on this forum and in twitter) that his sources tell him it's not coming. I personally take that as a good indicator that it may actually not be coming (or at least it's priority is low enough internally to make it not happen). But until Nokia comes out and say it (like they recently did with MeeGo) it's still an unconfirmed rumor, and subject to change.

Prat of the reason Nokia hasn't said anything is the game corporations play. They'd rather say nothing than say "No", only to see overwhelming support swell and have to flip on their decision. Instead, they say nothing, and wait to see what happens. If there's a huge swell demanding Flash 10.1, they can then direct resources to make it happen and don't wind up with egg on their face.

Individuals may put more or less stock in qoles interpretation and/or his contacts. That's not disrespect, that's human nature. The response for where this is coming from is still valid, but in the city that now is N900 it takes a little more of an explanation than "this guy says so".

TheLongshot

05-27-2010, 02:51 PM

I'll go with what is known...

Flash Player 10.1 for Android signup (https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_flashplayer10_android_signup). There isn't one for Maemo.

There isn't one for WebOS or Symbian either.

No comment about Maemo at all.

Which all it means right now is that Maemo probably isn't among those OSs who will get it on the release date. It doesn't mean that it won't come at all. I remember there was some comment from Adobe that they had no announcement for Maemo. That's hardly a denial.

Right now, no one here knows if Flash 10.1 is coming or not. Any statement either way by someone outside of Nokia has to be chalked up as speculation.

woody14619

05-27-2010, 02:58 PM

Again... If you want to see Flash 10.1 support, I advise you to do something other then whine about it on this forum. Open a bug ticket and get people to vote for it. If you can get several hundred votes in a short time (which is quite possible) it may just stir things up internally enough in a place where an actual Nokia employee will see it and spur them into action.

Whining about it here is as useless as complaining that you didn't win the lottery after not buying a ticket. Filing the bug and coordinating votes is a long shot, but at least there's a fractional chance what you're doing will be noticed.

Just saying...

fatalsaint

05-27-2010, 03:03 PM

I know qole. I know what he's done. I am a relatively long-standing member of these forums (even if I did disappear a while).

I have absolutely no reason at all to disagree with qole's tweet, or have any doubt that at this point it appears there will be no Flash 10.1 for the N900.

What I still can't understand, believe, or even fathom - is how they could possibly justify it, in any capacity at *all*... when it was demonstrated ('http://maemocentral.com/2009/10/08/video-flash-10-1-on-the-n900/') in a working example on the N900!

Obviously.. this is not a technical limitation. If they got it to work at least to that point that it functioned in a demo I find it extremely unlikely that the next day they hit a hiccup and went "Aww crap.. I guess the N900 really can't handle full Flash 10.1". Not likely.

So, if Flash does not come for the N900 (which I have no reason, inkling, or thought to doubt qole and his source) - the only possible excuse I can fathom would be a business decision by Nokia. And I'd personally consider it a bad one.

Texrat

05-27-2010, 03:08 PM

For instance... Cummins Diesel makes engines for Ford in a partnership. If I had a question about their Ford implementation of their diesel engines... I'd go straight to Ford.

How is that applicable? Adobe makes the Maemo/ARM implementation of their ubiquitous (proprietary, et al) Flash Player for Nokia to be used in the Maemo OS. If I have a question, using the aforementioned logic, I would go to Nokia first."

I don't see that analogy working here.

Cummins is an OEM for Ford. Adobe is not an OEM for Nokia in the same regard. They are developing a plug-in and can no doubt at any time elect to discontinue development or pull it outright even if it's complete.

It's just not the same as contracting to OEM a truck engine.

There are numerous differences here which explode the analogy. Licensing is another.

So, if Flash does not come for the N900 (which I have no reason, inkling, or thought to doubt qole and his source) - the only possible excuse I can fathom would be a business decision by Nokia. And I'd personally consider it a bad one.

As said above, it *could* be an Adobe decision as well. BUT, if it was strictly Nokia and based on a reluctance to pay for licensing, THAT would make me VERY unhappy.

atz6975

05-27-2010, 03:11 PM

mmmmmm...
I have dream...of a device that lasts as long as my mobile contract and keeps its value proposition.
I got my N900 on a contract renewal. Because I had some Nokia marketing NIT-xperience before(ouch), I chose specifically a 1 year contract.
So I got the phone as soon as available in Paris: Dec 09.

I couldn't care less about flash, css, html 345 and what not. I just wanted the best possible web experience... And a few goodies (sigh).

6 months down the line I found myself in a position where the best possible web experience is not there for me anymore. I can't watch my favorite sites.

Rather than having Nokia commit on flash xx and Mfe blahblah, I would love them to simply commit (and charge if relevant) to the effort of maintaining a value proposition for a specific (public..) period and population.

At times where we understand that people need to act a bit more "durable", I would love a company that says "Keep your phone" rather than "buy the next one" (seat taken btw Nokia...).

...Ok, now I can wake up and watch roadmaps, partnerships, community, privileged friendships ploy and kiss the dirt (over again) under the holy grail of more $$$$ and the like.

I do like my Nxxxs though.

ossipena

05-27-2010, 03:12 PM

Show me recent statements that it is still coming from Nokia.

if it has originally been announced to come, there is no need for further statements. if situation is changed, it will be announced.

fatalsaint

05-27-2010, 03:13 PM

As said above, it *could* be an Adobe decision as well. BUT, if it was strictly Nokia and based on a reluctance to pay for licensing, THAT would make me VERY unhappy.

But if it was an Adobe decision - why would they have demo'd it? Not only that, it was the first device they demo'd with it.. coming BEFORE the Android device.

I could see that second part though; Nokia not wanting to pay the licensing fee's. But how does that work - when just about every desktop in the world runs 1 of 3 major OS branches and they all get flash for free. (Or, does Mozilla, Microsoft, etc all pay Adobe to maintain a flash for their browser? *legitimate question*)

fatalsaint

05-27-2010, 03:15 PM

if it has originally been announced to come, there is no need for further statements. if situation is changed, it will be announced.

Could you post the announcement from nokia?

The only "announcement" I am aware of is the video I linked.. and that was Adobe - not Nokia.

I really think Adobe shot Nokia in the foot by demoing flash on the N900 if Nokia never planned to release it.

nosa101

05-27-2010, 03:15 PM

isn't flash lite 4.0 based on adobe flash 10?

But it is called flash lite for a reason. Flash lite is what Android has (sans the Nexus One). I doubt many here would want flash lite

daffydk

05-27-2010, 03:19 PM

hmm
sure there will be a flash 10.1 build for maemo and meego . it just takes time.

have a litle patience it will show up eventually .

evryone in here has seen the Adobe Flash 10.1 video on youtube runing on a n900 så its just a matter of time before it arrives.

Adobe goes where the money is . and that means Android (google,youtube) WinMob7 and so on. and in the end are maemo. ( we are not big enough) but it will come to n900 thats for sure.

And no i dont have that from anyone its just pure spekulation and what i belive will happen

nosa101

05-27-2010, 03:19 PM

I really don't get the complaining. I've said it before and i'll say it again, apart from the Nexus One running Froyo, what other device has flash 10.1?

What Nokia device has flash 10.1?

What is the most advance flash on any Nokia device and what device is that?

This flash 10.1 for mobile is still beta from what i know. If every other device gets it and we are left out then me maybe we can feel aggy. If another Nokia device gets it then we can question their actions. Until then, this is all pointless

ossipena

05-27-2010, 03:19 PM

Could you post the announcement from nokia?

The only "announcement" I am aware of is the video I linked.. and that was Adobe - not Nokia.

I really think Adobe shot Nokia in the foot by demoing flash on the N900 if Nokia never planned to release it.

I can't, that is why I put my words like that....

cfh11

05-27-2010, 03:20 PM

But it is called flash lite for a reason. Flash lite is what Android has (sans the Nexus One). I doubt many here would want flash lite

While flash lite 4 appears to be compatible with 10.1 compliant sites I would imagine it offers little benefit over Flash 9 other than that. Coming from an N95 with flash lite 3, I can tell you that it is definitely NOT full flash. Like nosa101 says, it is called lite for a reason.

Texrat

05-27-2010, 03:21 PM

But if it was an Adobe decision - why would they have demo'd it? Not only that, it was the first device they demo'd with it.. coming BEFORE the Android device.

I could see that second part though; Nokia not wanting to pay the licensing fee's. But how does that work - when just about every desktop in the world runs 1 of 3 major OS branches and they all get flash for free. (Or, does Mozilla, Microsoft, etc all pay Adobe to maintain a flash for their browser? *legitimate question*)

Don't ask me why. Companies do it all the time. Microsoft is notorious for killing demoed stuff. Google too. I can't answer for them.

Here's Adobe's licensing page for the player: http://www.adobe.com/products/players/fpsh_distribution1.html

I haven't read the PDF. There may also be other licenses involved beyond the distribution of the player.

EDIT: IIRC correctly the last time this subject came up, there were still power/performance issues to iron out in mobile versions of Flash 10.1. Maybe they've been fixed for Android.

pantera1989

05-27-2010, 03:24 PM

I don't know if this was posted before but Adobe said that they would release a version for linux and that basically it is up to Nokia whether to port it or not. Or maybe the community could?

Texrat

05-27-2010, 03:26 PM

I don't know if this was posted before but Adobe said that they would release a version for linux and that basically it is up to Nokia whether to port it or not. Or maybe the community could?

If that ever really happened then problem solved.

But I have my doubts.

neotalk

05-27-2010, 03:26 PM

but since flash lite 4 works with flash 10.1 would this not do untill the full flash 10.1 is released or even if flash 10.1 does not. At least tvcatchup would work straight from the site....as would the bbciplayer? or am i wrong?

woody14619

05-27-2010, 03:29 PM

I really think Adobe shot Nokia in the foot by demoing flash on the N900 if Nokia never planned to release it.

Or,... Maybe Adobe was planning to release it in the way they currently do for most other platforms: Users get it from Adobe for the OS you have and install it yourself, via their repository. Maybe they then found a technical or legal "gottcha" in PR1.2 or the licensing from Nokia and are hitting a wall with Nokia.

Given the closed nature of both companies, I'm sure some NDAs were in place, and that most of the development was done on Adobes side. (Thus their ability to show a 10.1 version on their own N900.) It could be any number of things... Which is why I say the best thing to do is show support to Nokia (and Adobe) to get 10.1 on the device. Push them to push each other and it could actually happen.

As for going the bug tracker route, yes, it may or may not work. I can tell you complaining here definitely will not work. To win the lottery, you have to buy a ticket. Same goes here. The bug ticket may not win, but if you don't put it in an get people to vote for it, I can tell you it will definitely not win.... What's the harm in trying?

gabby131

05-27-2010, 03:30 PM

the flash player 10 might not come for the n900 but i hope there will be a browser that supports it in the future!

nosa101

05-27-2010, 03:31 PM

gerbick

05-27-2010, 03:32 PM

Time will tell if it comes out or not. No official statements from Nokia can be seen as a bad thing.

devu

05-27-2010, 03:33 PM

List of companies working together in cooperation to bring Flash 10.1 on mobile platforms

Adobe
AMD
Antena 3
Atlantic Records
ARM
Associated Press
BBC
Burda Digital Systems
CELL
Chunghwa Telecom
Cisco
Comcast
Condé Nast
Daum
Disney Interactive Media Group
EPIX
FOX Mobile Group
Freescale Semiconductor
Google
HTC
Imagination Technologies
Intel
LG Electronics
Lionsgate
Marvell
MIPS Technologies
Motorola
Movial
MTV Networks
NBC Universal
Nokia
NTT DOCOMO
NVIDIA
OpenPeak
OpenTV
Palm
Paramount
PBS
Qualcomm
QNX Software Systems
Research in Motion
RTL Interactive
Sagemcom
Samsung
Sonic Solutions
Sony Ericsson
ST-Ericsson
STMicroelectronics
STERN
Symbian Foundation
Teleca
Texas Instruments
The New York Times
Tomorrow Focus Technologies
Toshiba
Verizon Wireless
Vizio
Wind River
ZiiLABS

List of sponsors for developers who working on some project that could help promote Flash10.1.

Adobe
Nokia

Are you still believe Nokia is not in the loop?

As far As I remember Adobe statement was because of Open Source Project agreement we will provide flash player plug-in to everyone involved equally. There was also something about time to do not make anybody favorite on the market. I don't care who is saying what. I'm as always trying to analyze data from many sources. For me if Flash 10.1 will not come on N900 it will be business decision noting else.
And I feel stupid and naive that I didn't analyze data before I bought this device.

At least non of these decisions are up to us or qole or even his colleague. But I will not change the fact that whatever it was demonstrated in a working example on the N900 was big lie or only promise or even worst, false marketing catch after all. And that made me [choose between s or m]ad.

gerbick

05-27-2010, 03:34 PM

Or,... Maybe Adobe was planning to release it in the way they currently do for most other platforms: Users get it from Adobe for the OS you have and install it yourself, via their repository. Maybe they then found a technical or legal "gottcha" in PR1.2 or the licensing from Nokia and are hitting a wall with Nokia.

That's even more speculation. Why can't somebody from Nokia just issue a clear statement?

Texrat

05-27-2010, 03:34 PM

Time will tell if it comes out or not. No official statements from Nokia can be seen as a bad thing.

That's my single biggest problem with the company: long, dead silences between (usually discouraging) announcements.

Bleah.

theflew

05-27-2010, 03:35 PM

I'll go with what is known...

Flash Player 10.1 for Android signup (https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/entitlement/index.cfm?e=labs_flashplayer10_android_signup). There isn't one for Maemo.

An OS list that has the following (http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/features.html):

No comment about Maemo at all.

That's all I do know.

You're not going to see an Adobe signup because it would be replacing an official version that was provided by Nokia. Nokia would be the only one to release 10.1 to replace the 9.X version included with the N900. Android had nothing to replace so for Android it's just an app to download. I imagine with MeeGo being open source Adobe could provide a download.

Texrat

05-27-2010, 03:37 PM

Are you still believe Nokia is not on the loop?

Hang on devu-- big difference between being "in the loop" (ie, sponsorship, partnership, etc) and having final control.

I'm not saying Nokia doesn't, either. I'm saying that the statements here claiming "it can only be Nokia's refusal" are logically flawed until we hear something conclusive.

gerbick

05-27-2010, 03:37 PM

You're not going to see an Adobe signup because it would be replacing an official version that was provided by Nokia. Nokia would be the only one to release 10.1 to replace the 9.X version included with the N900. Android had nothing to replace so for Android it's just an app to download. I imagine with MeeGo being open source Adobe could provide a download.

That makes a lot of sense; especially where the only way to get it back would be to reflash.

However, the lack of statement one way or the either from Nokia is leading to more speculation by all parties involved in this predicament.

fatalsaint

05-27-2010, 03:38 PM

I really don't get the complaining. I've said it before and i'll say it again, apart from the Nexus One running Froyo, what other device has flash 10.1?

I think there's a difference between complaining and looking to the future. Nobody argues, AFAIK, that the N900 doesn't offer the best mobile experience right now.

But if companies only looked at the now.. nobody would ever get anything tomorrow.

There have been announcements for Android, WinMo, Symbian for those communities to be waiting.

For us there has been silence; except for one well respected member and internal source.

Turning a blind eye to things is no more better an answer than needless "complaining".

I love my N900, I'm not a troll on these forums, I don't whine or complain pointlessly - but I do have no problems calling out problems/inconsistencies/concerns when I see valid ones. I don't even like flash.. I use flash blocker. But I'm also not ignorant, and I realize that a very large number of very popular websites do use flash - and to continue to get the "full" web experience in the near future that will include Flash 10.1.

pantera1989

05-27-2010, 03:42 PM

If that ever really happened then problem solved.

But I have my doubts.

Here's my source. However looking back at it it is not an official source: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/632853

And look at THIS!! Early 2010..really!
http://www.allaboutmaemo.com/news/item/10576_Flash_101_on_the_N900.php

kevinm2k

05-27-2010, 03:45 PM

I contacted adobe and asked them for there opinion. The impression I got is that they were working on something but wouldn't say anything about it. They basically said, 'You must ask Nokia we are not permitted to talk about our involvement in bringing flash to our partners devices'.

I have emailed Nokia asking them, not for time lines but just an answer, so we'll see

fatalsaint

05-27-2010, 03:45 PM

I'm not saying Nokia doesn't, either. I'm saying that the statements here claiming "it can only be Nokia's refusal" are logically flawed until we hear something conclusive.

Well wait... I didn't mean to come off as implying that.

I said that, to date, that is the only possible reason I (me, myself, maybe Irene too) can fathom.

It makes little->no sense to me for Adobe to have pulled the plug *after* demoing it. But as you said, it's happened before with other companies so it's not definitive by any means... I just doubt it.

Also, things could be totally out of context like Woody said: Maybe qole's source was meaning that Nokia was not going to be releasing 10.1 for the N900... but that doesn't stop Adobe from releasing an installable DEB file for it. Or an installable addon package for Firefox that already is on the N900.

Nothing at this point is definitive. It's just, to me so far, if the N900 never gets an official flash from either party - I can only see it being a business decision from Nokia.

Now, I am sure the N900 will get it *some* how.. especially with MeeGo/Harmattan being on identical hardware, and Harmattan even having some shared roots with Maemo - an "unofficial" copy of the .so file will likely work. Will that be legal? ... debatable I'm sure... but that isn't going to stop people from distributing it for "Flash 10.1".

So still.. I just see no upside for Adobe to have pulled the plug.

nosa101

05-27-2010, 03:48 PM

I think there's a difference between complaining and looking to the future. Nobody argues, AFAIK, that the N900 doesn't offer the best mobile experience right now.

But if companies only looked at the now.. nobody would ever get anything tomorrow.

There have been announcements for Android, WinMo, Symbian for those communities to be waiting.

For us there has been silence; except for one well respected member and internal source.

Turning a blind eye to things is no more better an answer than needless "complaining".

I love my N900, I'm not a troll on these forums, I don't whine or complain pointlessly - but I do have no problems calling out problems/inconsistencies/concerns when I see valid ones. I don't even like flash.. I use flash blocker. But I'm also not ignorant, and I realize that a very large number of very popular websites do use flash - and to continue to get the "full" web experience in the near future that will include Flash 10.1.

I'm not turning a blind eye to it but i'm not at the Nokia offices with pitchfork in hand. If Nokia puts out a MeeGo device with flash 10.1, then we can conclude that were got screwed over.

At this point, we know nothing.

fatalsaint

05-27-2010, 03:50 PM

At this point, we know nothing.
Yes.... but when the vast majority of everyone else does... this is a problem.

Apple fanbois at least, to my knowledge right now, have a pretty definitive "No" with Mr. Jobs being quite Anti-Flash/Pro-HTML5 and Adobe being rather ticked at Apple for .. whatever.

Our Symbian bretheren, they have an answer.

Same company, different OS... we got nothing.

Texrat

05-27-2010, 03:53 PM

So still.. I just see no upside for Adobe to have pulled the plug.

Since this thread is 95% speculative let's continue in that vein. ;)

What if for whatever reasons the Flash 10.1 plugin that was demoed will work in Maemo but would require retooling for MeeGo? Depending on how it's coded I could see that being a possibility. So what if Adobe says "Time out Nokia-- you killed the natural upgrade path for what we were working on, we think your user base for Maemo will be too small now, and we see no reason to commit resources to it any more. So, plug pulled. We're moving the team 100% to MeeGo."

Now, someone can poke a hole in that by showing that there would be no such code migration issues. :D

nosa101

05-27-2010, 03:56 PM

Yes.... but when the vast majority of everyone else does... this is a problem.

Apple fanbois at least, to my knowledge right now, have a pretty definitive "No" with Mr. Jobs being quite Anti-Flash/Pro-HTML5 and Adobe being rather ticked at Apple for .. whatever.

Our Symbian bretheren, they have an answer.

Same company, different OS... we got nothing.

Symbian is going with Flash Lite 4. I'm using the n8 as a basis for this conclusion.

WinMo and Palm haven't announced anything. I'm guessing RIM will go the Flash Lite route too.

Nobody really knows anything. I'm going to guess the Nexus One got it so early because Adobe views Android as Apple's direct competitor. They seem to be in bed with Android as far as I'm concerned. Didn't they give all their employees Android phones a while back? Putting it on the Nexus One seems like giving Apple the middle finger. Hopefully once this childish tirade is done, an effort to port it to other systems will be made

fatalsaint

05-27-2010, 03:56 PM

Since this thread is 95% speculative let's continue in that vein. ;)

What if for whatever reasons the Flash 10.1 plugin that was demoed will work in Maemo but would require retooling for MeeGo? Depending on how it's coded I could see that being a possibility. So what if Adobe says "Time out Nokia-- you killed the natural upgrade path for what we were working on, we think your user base for Maemo will be too small now, and we see no reason to commit resources to it any more. So, plug pulled. We're moving the team 100% to MeeGo."

Now, someone can poke a hole in that by showing that there would be no such code migration issues. :D

Ok fair enough....

But looking at that scenario (as it's a very valid complaint) - I'm not exactly sure Adobe is quite at fault there :D.

cfh11

05-27-2010, 03:57 PM

Or an installable addon package for Firefox that already is on the N900.

Or for that matter, any reason why this can't happen? Seems like the path of least resistance imho.

Texrat

05-27-2010, 03:58 PM

Ok fair enough....

But looking at that scenario (as it's a very valid complaint) - I'm not exactly Adobe is quite at fault there :D.

Hey, they have the same opportunity to be altruistic that Nokia has! :p

fatalsaint

05-27-2010, 03:58 PM

Symbian is going with Flash Lite 4. I'm using the n8 as a basis for this conclusion.

WinMo and Palm haven't announced anything. I'm guessing RIM will go the Flash Lite route too.

But even knowing that you're going with Flash Lite is knowing something. As far as WinMo not announcing anything I guess I stand corrected: but when they are already listed as supported on Adobe's site...

But granted... kind of hard to pull that argument when they had a dude stand in front of an audience and *show* a working N900.. and now look at us. So maybe you're right in that regard.

As far as your note about the childish tirade between Apple and Adobe.. I agree with that whole block.

Texrat

05-27-2010, 03:59 PM

Symbian is going with Flash Lite 4. I'm using the n8 as a basis for this conclusion.

WinMo and Palm haven't announced anything. I'm guessing RIM will go the Flash Lite route too.

Nobody really knows anything. I'm going to guess the Nexus One got it so early because Adobe views Android as Apple's direct competitor. They seem to be in bed with Android as far as I'm concerned. Didn't they give all their employees Android phones a while back? Putting it on the Nexus One seems like giving Apple the middle finger. Hopefully once this childish tirade is done, an effort to port it to other systems will be made

ROFL.... Nosa, I love your reasoning! Oh man I would not doubt if that was the case at all.

Dude, you do alright for an Aggie.

devu

05-27-2010, 04:02 PM

This is from http://www.flashmobileblog.com/

The beta is now waiting on the Android Market for Nexus One and other Android 2.2 users to test out. General availability is expected in June 2010.

http://www.flashmobileblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Screen-shot-2010-05-20-at-12.02.21.png

While today’s (2010-05-20) announcement is all about Android, our target mobile operating systems for Flash Player also include Windows Phone 7, webOS, Symbian, and BlackBerry. Adobe provides a porting kit and Linux-based reference implementation to Open Screen Project partners to allow them to port Flash Player 10.1 to other platforms. These ports are subject to Adobe certification and must pass our standards for compatibility, performance and usability in order for devices to be marketed as “Includes Adobe Flash Player.”

Is not like Symbian is in Nokia hands?

And another one possibility... maemo didn't pass...

nosa101

05-27-2010, 04:04 PM

Did Adobe say "we have made the porting kit available to Nokia" or "we make the porting kit available to Nokia"?

If the ball truly isn't in Nokia's court then and Nokia is hamstrung because bad mouthing adobe wouldn't be a smart move

Texrat

05-27-2010, 04:05 PM

Is not like Symbian is in Nokia hands?

Symbian was very recently released 100% to open source. So, no.

pantera1989

05-27-2010, 04:07 PM

What I am tired of is of all these anouncements. Do you realise the we have gone from: Adobe Flash 10.1 being released first on the N900 to it being released later to it not being released at all.

Not to mention Meego. I am getting tired of all thee conflicting anouncements. Meego not being released for the N900, then it will be released, then it will not, then it will..

Would someone from Nokia please clarify these things? I am not disappointed about Meego. I am very happy with Maemo as long as Qt 4.6 promises future applications. However this flash thing.. Nokia promised us this.

nosa101

05-27-2010, 04:07 PM

ROFL.... Nosa, I love your reasoning! Oh man I would not doubt if that was the case at all.

Dude, you do alright for an Aggie.

I try

Adobe provides a porting kit and Linux-based reference implementation to Open Screen Project partners to allow them to port Flash Player 10.1 to other platforms.

So they haven't made the kit available to Nokia yet? Then the ball is still with Adobe

neotalk

05-27-2010, 04:09 PM

evenyually got an email back from nokia......completly sidetracked my question about flash 10.1...

i basically asked the following:

when are we getting flash 10.1 support voice for
> sat nav and fully working pc suite?

this is the reply i got 10 mins ago

> Thank you for e-mailing the Nokia Care Contact Center.
>
> Based on your concern, turn by turn navigation is currently not available
> on the N900. Unfortunately, the current version of Maemo, the software
> that powers the N900, does not support navigation. With Maemo 5 we
> prioritized development of those areas that we felt would be the most
> important for the target audience of this device. This means that Maemo
> does not yet feature support for the full range of services that our other
> Symbian-powered Nseries devices might have. However, naturally, we’ll be
> working to increase support for all Nokia services, including navigation,
> as we go forward with Maemo.
>
>
> I hope the information provided proves useful.
>
> If you have any additional question, please don't hesitate to contact us
> again. To ensure proper handling of your case, kindly continue using the
> current subject line.
>
> Thank you very much for your email. Have a great day.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Kristel Avis
> Email Specialist
> Nokia Inc.

cfh11

05-27-2010, 04:11 PM

That is the textbook definition of a canned response.

neotalk

05-27-2010, 04:12 PM

i have sent the email back with the following rant:

Hi Kristel.....my main concern is flash 10.1 support......as you will be
aware nokia showcased this on the n900 last year in august. We are all still
waiting for this highly and critical upgrade. As you may or may not be aware
flash 9.4 is degrading and most sites are now switching to flash 10.1
This has resulted in the internet experience (that the nokia promises to
deliver) becoming non existent for most users.

So my question yet again is when will flash 10.1 be coming to the n900

i did ask this in my last email and you did not address this at all.

I must also point out that nokia emailed me in febuary of this year
informing me that flash 10.1 was still in beta.

Is that statement still true and if so is there any date on a release or
will there be a beta version available thru nokia

The maemo forums are full of messages and outrage about the lack of flash
10.1

do nokia ever read the maemo forums?

i would also like to know when a full working pc suite and or nokia ovi
suite will be available for the n900 also.

regards,

Neo.

nosa101

05-27-2010, 04:13 PM

But that's because Nokia doesn't know. Adobe hasn't released the porting kit to anyone except Android and we all know why

linuxeventually

05-27-2010, 04:16 PM

Another tease was vmware running on the N8X0.

Apparently their parents never taught them to share

nosa101

05-27-2010, 04:18 PM

We need to bombard Adobe with these emails asking them WHEN they are releasing this porting kit. They claim they make available but when will they

un-named_user

05-27-2010, 04:23 PM

Err.. Looks like Adobe put the ball in Nokia's court with these replies in their forums.

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/632853
Adobe provides a porting kit and Linux-based reference implementation to Open Screen Project partners to allow them to port Flash Player 10.1 to other platforms.

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/643017
10.1 has numerous performance improvements over 10.0. I don't have any details about the graphics acceleration on Maemo specifically, but we are working closely with platform vendors to hook into whatever hardware acceleration is available.

Hi,

We are working with Nokia to bring Flash Player 10.1 to their devices. We cannot comment on the availability of when or which one of their devices will support Flash Player. It’s best to ask Nokia about their device and support roadmap.

Thanks.

Regarding Flash 10 on the N900 (or any other device), the agreements we have with our partners severely restrict what we can say about products in development. If we do say anything it is with their permission and cooperation, and they control how much we disclose.

At this time there is nothing we can say about the N900, you might have better success asking Nokia instead.

Sorry, if Nokia doesn't want to address these questions then Adobe can't either. It really is up to them to comment on future product releases, not us.

Can we get our answer now, Nokia.. Pretty please? :p

nosa101

05-27-2010, 04:26 PM

blackopz

05-27-2010, 04:52 PM

My 2 cents...Had an Nokia 770 Flash couldn't be update so I bought an N810 .. then after a while Flash was out of date..So I bought the N900 and the first thing I did was go the a flash site and was disappointed that the Flash version was out of date right out of the box.. So with that said, having previous experience with hoping that we would get an updated version of Adobe Flash, I have resigned myself that it's not coming and if it does it will be out of date within a short time and Nokia will not provide an updated version. With that said still think the N900 is great.

adi_adit

05-27-2010, 05:10 PM

N900 is about to be launched in India in a week or two and will not be discontinued at least for an year. Also, N900 is primarily meant for Internet browsing and most web sites are switching to flash 10, so does that increase our chances of getting flash 10 support?

adi_adit

05-27-2010, 05:17 PM

Also, Meego is a new os and is backed up also by Intel. So if Meego gets flash 10, N900 users who have Meego installed can also enjoy Flash 10 provided the fact that Meego 1.0 has already been launched which has all the drivers(including graphics) for N900. Meego 1.1 will also have a UX and is going to be launched in June.

un-named_user

05-27-2010, 05:29 PM

But has adobe released the porting kit?
Sure, we know they release it but have they?
I'm sure we don't need Nokia to answer that because Adobe did the releasing.

If they have released it, then we can ask Nokia if it will be ported. I think Adobe is full of schit

As evil or full of schit Adobe maybe. Nokia isn't any better come to think of it.

I know its off topic, but look what happened with the whole N7x0, N8x0 upgrade fiasco. I never even owned one.. but still felt really bad for the poor souls after having read up about it.

Look at what is happening with the Meego-Harmattan/Meego upgrade path. A long long silence and then among the PR1.2 press release a little snippet of the news of no official update to the next OS on the N900. Of course they knew all along and that is why its an underhanded move on Nokia's part.

Suddenly a flood of, "hey lets make a community supported version come up". For what, damage control? Can't really be all altruism now, can it? Yes, I applaud the community effort massively(and appreciate Nokia's help too in this regard), but I still feel burned :(

Am I surprised considering how Nokia has for so long handled the issue of upgrades on legacy devices? NO!! And that's why it hurts more.

IMHO unless they have a UI so heavily reliant on multitouch, like lets say like the new leap feature on the HTC Android phones. I see no reason to drop the official upgrade path. Most other multitouch requirements can be taken care of +/- sliders in applications. And multitouch keyboards are less of a requirement for the N900 users considering we have a HW keyboard.

Look past 4.00 on this video to see the leap feature in HTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDd8__9Nvug

The N8x0 was left out for not having an OMAP3 Soc. The N900 for what? A resistive touch screen!!!

Let's remember that this all about user experience. Polishing software is a lot of work. Polishing each application for resistive screen (as good as it is) is not trivial considering that we are making the UI for our Nokia product on MeeGo for capacitive screens as we have said already in Maemo Summit 2009.

I would think that the OS is supposed to handle the nuances in hardware, not the applications themselves.

Qgil eloquently, described the problem at hand some time back.
This argument combined with the argument of the 'designed obsolescence' also pops up regularly.

It is true that 'Nokia sells hardware' but this is just part of the story. Nokia develops a consumer offering based on devices, software and services. Harware is very important in this strategy and so are the software platforms, the application developer ecosystem and the Ovi services. As opposed to a specific device, software and services can be continuous and evolutionary. They can support very well the very important job of customer retention.

If the owners of a Nokia XXX are happy with this offering, one day they will move to Nokia XXY, or perhaps Nokia YYY. They will recommend Nokia to their relatives and friends, etc.

If the owner of a Nokia XXX is unhappy because one or more of the pieces described above doesn't work, they will start their walk away to other competitors.

So you might get WONTFIXES and FIXED in [next release], and that [next release] might or might not be available for your next device. But don't think that Nokia doesn't care about bugs in current releases and about the satisfaction of the users getting those bugs.

What do you mean 'reduced activity'? Can you express it with numbers or some more details?

And I'm clear on where my loyalty won't lie after the N900. I will happily move on to Meego in the future(and continue enjoying my N900 for now), but probably not with Nokia

Meh!! if flash 10.1 isn't coming to the N900. I now have bigger things about the N900 to worry about :p

Death to Flash!!! :D
Most companies in any case will support H.264 in the hardware and have appropriate licenses. While it will suck for pure FOSS supporters, I hope the new Google WebM project takes care of that too.

Jobso is right here. :) I don't want a middle man between my content and the content provider. Now, if only he could ever convince me to get tied down to his draconian locked down though buttery smooth iSchit :D

Texrat

05-27-2010, 05:38 PM

Jobso is right here. :) I don't want a middle man between my content and the content provider. Now, if only he could ever convince me to get tied down to his draconian locked down though buttery smooth iSchit :D

Oh come on. If you're smart enough to get the rest of what you did, then you know full well that "Jobso" is wrong in that he is arbitrarily dismissing choice (with some of the most asinine and disingenuous reasoning I've ever seen in the tech world) and simply jockeying for Apple to be the middleman. With much more disastrous consequences than anything Flash could inflict.

nosa101

05-27-2010, 05:38 PM

IMHO unless they have a UI so heavily reliant on multitouch, like lets say like the new leap feature on the HTC Android phones. I see no reason to drop the official upgrade path. Most other multitouch requirements can be taken care of +/- sliders in applications. And multitouch keyboards are less of a requirement for the N900 users considering we have a HW keyboard.

This is probably the plan and I can perfectly understand why they would go with it. If the user experience is centered around multitouch, i wouldn't want some half baked effort.

I would think that the OS is supposed to handle the nuances in hardware, not the applications themselves.

Hardware restrictions are a pretty big deal especially if a work around can't be found. The software can only go as far as the hardware lets it go and not the other way around

S0urcerr0r

05-27-2010, 06:40 PM

in the N900's internal browser i think we currently have flash 9.0,246,0
in easy debians precompiled image u get 9.0,48,0 while running the web browser Ice Weasel (firefox based) (atleast in the precompiled image i got).

if we are lucky that means that it would be possible to make a hack for manual upgrade to upcoming flash versions (but hardware acceleration may be tricky in flash 10 unless were lucky).

in case it really turns out that nokia and adobe really abandon the plans for flash 10.1 on debian (ARM version) or the n900, we will be dependent on such hacks - alternatively if the Meego project turns out so well that we'll get all fedora (ARM version) possibilities and its web browsers with flash if it supports N900 hardware... should do so as long as its arm cortex a8+sgx535 based

mrojas

05-27-2010, 07:00 PM

It goes like this (puts on Sherlock Holmes hat):

Flash 10 requires special features from the OS to work (for Android, Froyo; Flash Lite 4, that is compatible with 10 requires Symbian^3; etc).

Those features are included in MeeGo. They aren't in Maemo 5 AKA Fremantle.

An official commercial release of MeeGo is not coming for the N900. The community is seeing what it can do to bring MeeGo to the N900, but there isn't anything assured.

That means, there isn't anything assured about Flash 10 in the N900 (specially if it is going to be hardware accelerated).

geohsia

05-27-2010, 07:19 PM

Suddenly a flood of, "hey lets make a community supported version come up". For what, damage control? Can't really be all altruism now, can it? Yes, I applaud the community effort massively(and appreciate Nokia's help too in this regard), but I still feel burned :(

I think its time to read between the lines. All along they've been saying "we have to see if it will work on the N900"(regarding MeeGo-Harmattan UX components). What does that mean? We know for a FACT they CAN get it to work but their statement is that they won't be BOTHERED to make it work if they run into ANY issues, and we know there will be issues, like multi-touch and etc.

So they're hemming and hawing when really we all know they're setting up for the big let down a few months from now when a MeeGo device releases. "Yeah, we tried, but we couldn't get it to work. But if you want, why not buy this really cool MeeGo device that does everything you thought the N900 would do but we never promised you."

Let's be real. I know marketing speak when I hear it.

zappa

05-27-2010, 07:32 PM

What about having maemo.org join the Open Screen Project and having some veteran coders implement it.
If maemo.org can't join then I think they should remove the Open in Open Screen Project.

geneven

05-27-2010, 07:52 PM

nosa101

05-27-2010, 07:56 PM

"Adobe provides a porting kit"

Once Adobe says that, I think the next answer is Nokia's not Adobe's.

If I say I sent you something, the next question is to you -- did you receive it?

Nokia typically stonewalls. Then they release something like PR1.2 and they are all over the site, as they were for a few instants. Then they fade back into the woodwork.

It's their pattern. It's a bad pattern.

"Adobe provides a porting kit" =/= "Adobe has provided a porting kit"

Seeing as we haven't heard anything from Micrsoft or Palm, I'm going to guess Adobe hasn't provided this kit yet. Maybe to Google

jessi3k3

05-27-2010, 08:45 PM

I know there's so much hate for Engadget here but have you guys seen their interview with Adobe's CTO Kevin Lynch?

http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/26/adobe-cto-kevin-lynch-the-full-interview/

The first half is pretty interesting, the rest is not so much.
If you fast forward 5:30, he starts talking about other manufacturers including Nokia. What makes me cringe is that Adobe's CTO says that he demoed Flash 10.1 for Symbian NOT Maemo in last October :S (forward to 6:45)

It's also interesting how Kevin lynch mentions that you cant just dump Flash 10.1 onto the OS, you have to update the OS aswell. He also says (i think) that kits should be ready around June

YoDude

05-27-2010, 09:19 PM

But if it was an Adobe decision - why would they have demo'd it? Not only that, it was the first device they demo'd with it.. coming BEFORE the Android device...

I think at the time the N900 was the only device they could demo it on, capabilities wise.

I agree that if Nokia had knowledge that there was even just a small chance that they could not offer it on the N900 then they should have released a statement at that time. I doubt that they could have stopped Adobe from using the N900 for the demo but they also needed to protect the Maemo brand,

Instead it looks like Nokia marketing had their cake and got to eat it too. How much of a factor did this demo have on an average N900 buyers purchase decision?

Even if it was small, it could have resulted in a sizable amount of N900 sales. Nokia marketing should cut this crap out because of the deterioration to the brand that occurs because of it.

This behavior of Nokia Marketing isn't new. All the pre release press shots of the N800 as I recall showed a screen with Navigation software running on it, Navicore (later branded Wayfinder) wasn't released for some 4 months after the N800 dropped and was sold as a co-op kit for close to $200 USD.

I shelled out the $400 clams for the N800 on the day it became available. I rationalized it's cost because of this implication that it could be used as an in car navigation device as well. I shelled out the additional 200 clams the day Navicore was available because I had to justify my first rationalization. (the same reasoning gamblers and alcoholics use btw. The "all in" mentality. :D )

The only thing that kept me from running through the next CES with "NOKIA SUCKS" painted in big blue letters on my fat naked body was membership in this community or more specifically the Internet tablet Talk (http://www.internettablettalk.com/) forum where I began to appreciate Maemo and the build quality of the devices... in spite of Nokia's seemingly bait and switch tactics.

But alas, that was when we were a small town and everyone had a chance to get to know one another. You could walk down the street and pop your head into any thread and see what was going on. Because most input was positive, input from everyone was welcome and no question to dumb and no idea went unexplored by others. As a result things got done. Or at least it seemed to keep my interest.

Now that we are this "Big City" as it was called recently, things still get done but more and more things are being done behind closed and locked doors. That may be because when you now walk down the street it is like the day after Mardi Gras or Times Square circa 1975. You see hooligans mugging the elderly, people pissing in the streets, and god forbid you ask for help, chances are that Ratzo Rizzo himself will offer it after first sizing you up to see whats in it for him. :eek:

Nokia offers on-line customer support (http://conversations.nokia.com/) so why did all these busses full of complaints seem to stop in our small town and unload like it was the end of the line?

The answer again is Nokia Marketing wanting their cake and eating it too.

Be part of something bigger The principle guiding the development of Maemo is that it will always remain a truly collaborative effort. Maemo was not simply created by a small group of Nokia engineers. Instead it has required the creative talents of the wider developer community over many years. The Maemo creative team is bigger than you might think: over 19,000 members working on more than 800 projects. And this number is growing all the time. In the future, the aim is to make maemo.org a creative hub that enables users, developers, and designers to openly collaborate on all things Maemo.

Posted around where a new N900 owner lands after touching that "Maemo" icon on their new N900...
>> http://maemo.nokia.com/maemo/

Want to know why there are all these threads here demanding MeeGo as if it was some sort of entitlement?

Count how many times WeAreMeeGo shows up on that page. :rolleyes:

[/minirant] :D

BTW fatalsaint, it's good seein' ya around here more often lately.

un-named_user

05-27-2010, 09:28 PM

Oh come on. If you're smart enough to get the rest of what you did, then you know full well that "Jobso" is wrong in that he is arbitrarily dismissing choice (with some of the most asinine and disingenuous reasoning I've ever seen in the tech world) and simply jockeying for Apple to be the middleman. With much more disastrous consequences than anything Flash could inflict.

I don't agree with Jobs on all other BS he puts across. I mean blocking Adobe's cross platform tools for developing iPhone apps was f##ked up in all regards. Creating a closed & draconian eco- system is the reason I don't buy his products.

I'm pro choice for media format wars. But, I am severely against one entity controlling the source and dominating. As friendly as Adobe may seem, they really don't care about anything else other than selling more products of their own. If the N900 was selling in huge numbers like Android, they would be falling all over to get Nokia to support it.. Heck probably even doing it for them.

That is why I like the promise of HTML5. Most devices we buy will come with the appropriate codecs. Embed a simple video tag and the users of said devices are good to go. The middle man is removed for all intents & purposes. I'm simplifying here, but you get the idea.

But, I wish H.264 would die too, for it means end of video support in the future for open source projects like Mozilla and others, unless they pony up the cash for the licenses. That's why I'm rooting for Ogg Theora(however lacking it may be right now) or the new WebM project (Google being evil be damned)

The web may be a business, but each and every user should have an equal standing and access to the content, irrespective of the platform they support.

It'll never happen, But one can wish :)

Note: the only use I see for flash beyond HTML5 video is user interfaces on interactive applets on the web. Sure there are other issues with HTML5, like DRM, etc etc. But the solutions will come with time and I have my fingers crossed ;)

This is probably the plan and I can perfectly understand why they would go with it. If the user experience is centered around multitouch, i wouldn't want some half baked effort.

Hardware restrictions are a pretty big deal especially if a work around can't be found. The software can only go as far as the hardware lets it go and not the other way around

Agreed, but it reeks of piss poor product management and future outlook/viability then more than anything else.

And I could give Nokia the benefit of the doubt, I really want to considering how I have stayed with them for years as a loyal user. But their history regards upgrade paths makes me not want to :(

Edit:

The only think that kept me from running through the next CES with "NOKIA SUCKS" painted in big blue letters on my fat naked body was membership in this community or more specifically the Internet tablet Talk (http://www.internettablettalk.com/) forum where I began to appreciate Maemo

+1
I probably wouldn't run shouting anything :D. But yes, the community is the reason I'm thankful to have bought the N900.

Texrat

05-27-2010, 11:28 PM

Let's be real. I know marketing speak when I hear it.

I've heard Nokia accused of a lot of foul things, but marketing hasn't been one of them.

Texrat

05-27-2010, 11:37 PM

I'm pro choice for media format wars. But, I am severely against one entity controlling the source and dominating. As friendly as Adobe may seem, they really don't care about anything else other than selling more products of their own.

But-- but-- being "one entity controlling the source and dominating" is exactly what Apple is trying to do by squeezing Adobe out!

This is a no-brainer to me. Apple is trying to create an exclusive neighborhood where they have discretion over who gets in and what gets done. Adobe on the other hand plays very nicely in an inclusive world where exclusivity is in the hands of the individual. Don't like Flash? Simple: don't install the plugin, or use a Flash-blocker. In Apple's inverted version of reality, you don't have that freedom. THEY made the decision for you.

And sure I'm in favor of HTML5. But let it win on its own merits. If it can unseat Flash on those terms, great! Even so, get ready for a long haul.

Everything is evil by degree. I'll take Adobe's evil or Apple's any day.

YoDude

05-28-2010, 12:29 AM

But-- but-- being "one entity controlling the source and dominating" is exactly what Apple is trying to do by squeezing Adobe out!

This is a no-brainer to me. Apple is trying to create an exclusive neighborhood where they have discretion over who gets in and what gets done. Adobe on the other hand plays very nicely in an inclusive world where exclusivity is in the hands of the individual. Don't like Flash? Simple: don't install the plugin, or use a Flash-blocker. In Apple's inverted version of reality, you don't have that freedom. THEY made the decision for you.

And sure I'm in favor of HTML5. But let it win on its own merits. If it can unseat Flash on those terms, great! Even so, get ready for a long haul.

Everything is evil by degree. I'll take Adobe's evil or Apple's any day.

That's the gist of it... Adobe was asleep at the switch and neglected a lot of things for too long. This hurt them by allowing Jobs prophesy to be fullfilled. But Jobs speach was nothing short of a "neaner, neaner, neaner" victory dance that he wouldn'y have done if he didn't have the sales numbers.

The reality is that these same sales numbers will now justify this response by Apple regarding any technology not invented in house. This will happen and it allways does. The bean counters and stock holders will make it so because it now makes economic sense.

Adobe flash will die off eventually but it will not be replaced by anything Apple simply because... it's Apple.

There are some neat things just over the horizon. HTML and new tech will continue to evolve.

When Apple adopts that "in house" philosophy it will be the begining of its end as it will set itself up to be in the position that Adobe is now in. Complacent.

mrojas

05-28-2010, 12:37 AM

Something to consider in the HTML5 vs Flash issue is not that it should be an issue at all. It isn't like, because a device supports Flash, it stops supporting HTML5/H.264 as well. Both should be supported, because both are used in the real web, and eventually the user will decide which one to pick

Apple doesn't give you that option.

un-named_user

05-28-2010, 01:23 AM

But-- but-- being "one entity controlling the source and dominating" is exactly what Apple is trying to do by squeezing Adobe out!

This is a no-brainer to me. Apple is trying to create an exclusive neighborhood where they have discretion over who gets in and what gets done. Adobe on the other hand plays very nicely in an inclusive world where exclusivity is in the hands of the individual. Don't like Flash? Simple: don't install the plugin, or use a Flash-blocker. In Apple's inverted version of reality, you don't have that freedom. THEY made the decision for you.

...

Everything is evil by degree. I'll take Adobe's evil or Apple's any day.

Newsflash!! They are doing so on their platform and not the web. Plus, they possibly can't control the media on the internet because of H.264 now, can they?

And how hard is exactly not to buy apple then? Let them create an exclusive/closed down neighborhood for all they want. If people/companies don't like it. They won't buy it or move away eventually. I know of enough iPhone to Android converts who wanted to escape Jobso's playground.

As for flash, it is nothing more than a necessary evil.
And what the heck is "Adobe plays very nicely?" Their platform is bloated beyond belief and struggles to get decent performance almost anywhere without beefy hardware specs. Adobe has been unbelievably lazy about Flash player for the Linux platform?? Care to venture a guess why that would be? To me a crappy add-on option is no better than no option.

If you browse the Adobe forums, You will find one class of users who are in the same boat as the N900 users. the Htc HD2 users. Apparently, they were shown a 10.1 demo video too, saying its coming soon. Later it got canned and Adobe's official response was that its not possible cause they mere missing critical APIs in the OS.. Oh Noezzz :D

Sure, flash may be capable of great & equal performance some day on all platforms. But I'm not sending a bouquet of roses to Adobe till they keep sitting on their asses.

Almost forgot. To me Apple and Adobe are both evil in their own regards. Who is more evil depends on purely what one's expectations are and their requirements.

Complaining about Apple making choices for you as a bad thing when you knowingly buy their products, is the same as that silly thread complaining about the N900 letting people install from Extras-devel.