Ask Nokia

[Reggie]

I'll be meeting with Nokia tomorrow morning, January 8, and with the remaining time, I would like to compile a list of questions you want answered on the new OS. Post them here.

Thanks.

[=DC=]

[1] Will there be a 770 version of Maemo 3.0 in the foreseeable future?
[2] If not, will we see any updates to the 770 now that Maemo 3.0 will likely branch from any future development of Maemo 2.x?
[3] If there a branch of 3.0 becomes available for the 770, will it have any significant incompatibilities with 2.x?
[4] Is there any plans to possibly branch versions of future OS upgrades (i.e. 4.0, 5.0, etc.) so that previous versions (from 2.x or 3.0 on) will not break compatibility with applications?
[5] And finally, Is there any way an upcoming developer can secure a definite place on the Device Developer Program list? ;)

Thanks Reggie, these are just the basic questions I'm sure a few of us devs are racking our brains over at the moment.

[phi]

why did they get rid of the slip cover?
what accessories will be available?
will there be a pan bluetooth profile available with the abundance of windows mobile phones that don't support DUN?

[aleksandyr]

Not precisely 800 centric:

What are Nokia's plans, if any, to add Java support?
What software updates, such as the flash player, will make it to the 770 from the 800?
What improvements are planned to the e-mail application?
What does Nokia want to see from N800 community developers? (I assume that they'd like some ROI on their partial device subsidy!)

[jayholler]

When do they plan to release the N900?

[SeRi@lDiE]

To Nokia:

How do you expect the Hardware quality to be in the Nokia 800 VS the Nokia 770?
We all know that the Hardware quality of most N770 was very bad due to failure specially with the so call "wsod" Shall we expect the wsod in the N800 as much as we did with the N770?

What about technical support. Are we going to get more broad technical support? Meaning we do not want to pray before we call tech support to get some body that knows about the N770 or now the N800. Is Nokia going to train better there tech support staff on there line of products since now the 800 and the 770 are consider to be in the N line.

- SeRi@lDiE

[Banner]

Yeah, here's a good question:

Why should I waste my money on the 800 when they've done such a lousy job of supporting the 770?

It's been a year and the software is still full of bugs, it should have been a no brianer at this point to clean things up, but it's only gotten worse. I don't even USE mine anymore. This was something I really needed and I wish I had saved my money and bought the Microsoft one for 800 bucks, it even has a keyboard! And runs a text editior I can use with OTHER programs!!

Tell nokia to stay out of the tablet business, they're clueless and made me waste my money. I had hoped to get something half way decent and they didn't even deliver on that.

[thorbo]

I am sitting here with my N 800 and think it is the coolest gadget I have ever used...I cannot see why people would complain. I know that this tool will satisfy my desires for mobility in computing.

Thor

[Texrat]

Reggie asked for OS related questions, and this is an OS section... =DC= got the idea. ;)

[shrimp_was_disabled2]

I want to know about OS 2007 support for the 770. I payed a lot for my 770, and I think that it should be continued to be support.

And are they going to include true Bluetooth functionality in the OS, or do I have to use add-ons to get BT file transfers to work? Looks like it does have profiles for File transfer and such. Great. Cripple the 770 and bring out a better device. WTF? I feel like I got a N800 prototype.

What are the real feautres of OS 2007? I looked at maemo.org and it said some stuff about terminal features, SDK rootstraps and crap. As an end user, what kind of REAL feautres and advantages does this new OS have?

[mrp]

one thing Nokia indirectly already promised to achieve with media streamer- video streaming. Are we going to get that in N770?

[Milhouse]

1) What are the plans for Bluetooth Headset and Bluetooth Audio support in 770 and/or N800? A BT headset is needed for VoIP, and the N800 with so much storage could be a great music/video player.

2) Flash is great for youtube etc. but not at 1 or 2 frames per second - Nokia may have been better off not providing it at all since this performance will result in negative press ("device not powerfull enough" etc.). Is the poor Flash performance going to be addressed in future updates? Can Flash 7 be ported to 770? What about Flash 9?

3) I have general concerns about 770 support. Ideally the 770 should be supported with updates for at least another year, and a version of OS 2007/Maemo 3.0 should be made available for the 770 if possible. It's possible that most 770 owners would not complain if support were dropped sometime in 2008, but with such little notice it kinda sucks (even MS doesn't end-of-life an OS without adequate notice!)

4) Video playback needs to be improved - Serge has done great work on mplayer but Nokia should lend a hand and fill in any missing knowledge gaps, eg. DSP work. Ogg Vorbis support would also be a great feature to add on a primarily open source device.

5) OT: Address the lack of Nokia and Community interaction, particularly in the area of Bugzilla reporting - this is mainly due to having internal and external bug tracking systems, the Nokia developers rarely use the external system giving a poor impression to the community.

[benny1967]

I'll be meeting with Nokia tomorrow morning, January 8, and with the remaining time, I would like to compile a list of questions you want answered on the new OS. Post them here.


The Maemo-Page says OS2007 is not compatible with the 770; I don't see why it wouldn't be - except that Nokia, of, course, wants people to upgrade their hardware.

If they see Maemo as a platform, they sould keep compatibility between the devices.

So:
a) How does Nokia ensure compatibility across maemo-based devices, meaning that software written for the 800 will run on the 770 (if it doesnt use the webcam, that is :) )
b) What are the specific technical (!) reasons for not making the OS2007 available to 770-users? (If it's marketing only, they'll probably don't tell, but it would be easier to accept in a way.)

Thx.

[tirabosco]

Will there be a NX client (Linux) or a rdesktop (Windows) client for OS2007 or OS2006 from Nokia some day?

[lbattraw]

I'd like to chime in on the OS2007 issue as well. I realize that performance may not be "optimal" for running it on the 770 but it should still be supported. This device family is far too immature to start alienating the early adopters who helped create the community. Promising a "Maemo 2.2" release does not cut it as it clearly says that the primary support and development behind the platform will directed towards the latest version of the 3.x line. Having a 2.2 version means that there's just another branch of code to support, whereas a unified code base will mean all the fixes and newest changes will carry along the 770 users (and eventually the n800 users when the next device comes along).

Larry

[aflegg]

tirabosco: I certainly hope not: that's something the 3rd party community can provide quite easily. I'd rather Nokia concentrated on making the best platform for those third party developers.

I suspect that's close to what their answer would be, too.

[=DC=]

Well, I don't know if it's too late to ask, and it may be a little off topic as it doesn't really concern the OS related stuff, but:

- Is there any way for Nokia to make starting/setting up development for Maemo a little easier by offering a stand alone dev distro like an updated live cd for those that would rather not have to jump head first into a Linux installation? Or even those of us that are still "green" to Linux and don't want to have to spend hours (or days even) setting up the development environment, risking the possibility of incorrect/incomplete/unstable scenarios that could eventually leak into final applications causing various complications for users and developers alike?

- And how feasible would it be to provide a developer's edition of the 770/N800/etc. with a multi-boot setup and options for simply running the various OS binaries from the memory card without having to similarly risk lots of time and effort getting started in application testing?

Thanks again. I hope future development of these devices get to the point where more of the community are more comfortable with helping to continue building the mobile platform even further.rther.

[bac522]

I'd like to chime in on the OS2007 issue as well. I realize that performance may not be "optimal" for running it on the 770 but it should still be supported. This device family is far too immature to start alienating the early adopters who helped create the community.
Larry

I second that! As someone who is involved in creating technology products and has been for many years, I learned a long time ago that your best customer's are the one who jumped on board early and if you alienate them you pretty much will self destruct future growth of a product. At the very least Nokia has to support the 770 with updates for the next 12 months so that it's core base can feel comfortable moving to the next generation products.

I just wonder if the Product Manager from Nokia will ever read this...

[klohmann]

Reggie:

At the risk of beating a dead horse, two issues are important to me:

1. Backward OS compatibility to the 770;
2. Compatibility of 3rd party developed software with the new OS, so they don't all have to be re-developed and/or repackaged (again!).

Thanks, for listening! K.

[lbattraw]

Well, I don't know if it's too late to ask, and it may be a little off topic as it doesn't really concern the OS related stuff, but:

- Is there any way for Nokia to make starting/setting up development for Maemo a little easier by offering a stand alone dev distro like an updated live cd for those that would rather not have to jump head first into a Linux installation? Or even those of us that are still "green" to Linux and don't want to have to spend hours (or days even) setting up the development environment, risking the possibility of incorrect/incomplete/unstable scenarios that could eventually leak into final applications causing various complications for users and developers alike?

For Maemo 1.1 there was a Knoppix live cd of the development environment but AFAIK nobody has continued this effort. The install instructions/process for setting up Maemo 3.0 have been streamlined and aren't bad at all. From what I can see a lot of the "3.0" changes have been to the devel environment as much as the device image itself. That's one of the reasons I'm annoyed that they're not supporting the 770 since it could benefit from the improvements (for development) too.


- And how feasible would it be to provide a developer's edition of the 770/N800/etc. with a multi-boot setup and options for simply running the various OS binaries from the memory card without having to similarly risk lots of time and effort getting started in application testing?

Setting up the device to multi-boot is a simple 10-minute process (not counting file copy time) and I use it to try out various images like Sardine. It's actually part of the Sardine setup process: http://maemo.org/maemowiki/HowTo_GetStartedWithSardine Without it you have no way to recover from a configuration change or upgrade, so yes, it's critical to have. I used it to try out the developer's edition image of OS2007 --on my 770. It does work although it's a bit slow and various things like wireless (!) are non-functional. No Opera or much else, but it's handy if you're looking for a clean image without a lot of extras.

Larry

[Texrat]

First there were complaints that the 700 was too slow, allowed too little external memory, lacked features, etc. So hardware improvements were implemented in the N800 that now require an OS break between the two devices.

Now the complaints are to the latter issue.

Come on, folks, it can't be both ways. As more information is revealed you should come to understand the necessity for the break. And as some have already acknowledged (while saying it "doesn't cut it") there will be an extension to maemo 2 that will bring the 770 closer to the N800. However, the devices are distinct enough that maemo 3 is warranted.

I think what misleads some people is that the generaion gap was much, much shorter than has been in the computing past. This is for at least 3 reasons:

1) development and product lifecycles are shorter;
2) this is a new type of product and will require a feature "shake out" period;
3) designers took (some) user feedback and incorporated it into the new device

I fully expect we may see one more generation of the product that possibly breaks with the N800, and then the design will settle in to the sort of maturity PCs enjoy and see OS upgrades that apply to more than one device. Or maybe the N800 will be it. But it's unrealistic to expect feature solidification at this point, guys. And even when the 770 reaches its point of no further support, that factor alone doesn't cause obsolescence; that's entirely dependent on users.

I expect we'll see some pleasant surprises in the 2007 OS, some that can't possibly work on the 770. Webcam functionality is certainly one area that won't.

[jan@ieper]

is the usb port powerd
if not.. any intention for the future?

[Texrat]

Oh, lest I forget: Reggie, ask those guys if any form of PRINTING is ever going to be supported! I couldn't get management blessing for my own trip to CES... :(

[aflegg]

I expect we'll see some pleasant surprises in the 2007 OS, some that can't possibly work on the 770. Webcam functionality is certainly one area that won't.

That doesn't mean that OS 2007 can't be released for the 770. No, the same firmware image couldn't be used (bootloader differences etc.), but the user-space components could certainly be run on the 770 with an appropriate kernel.

As for non-existent hardware, that's just a case of defining the appropriate conditions in the code to deal with it.

[aleksandyr]

Unless the differences between v2 and v3 are more of a point release change than a major update (e.x. v1 to v2 = major, v2 to v2.1 = minor) I agree entirely with aflegg.

Think of all the libraries that have been ported over with fairly minimal effort to v2. It might not run -perfectly- but it will run: developers can branch to deal with the presence and absence of hardware and hardware features (webcam, ARMv6, etc) but it takes some major incentives to keep developers working on disparate platforms that have more than packaging-level breaks.

[gorkon]

My question....will the N800 support SDHC. If so, then you can get into some serious storage with 4 GB out and 8 gb's coming.

One other thing that was not clear is does IT2007 also support a swap file? If so, I'd put that on the internal card.

Also, theoretically, you COULD mirror the cards if they were the same size. This could provide for better read/write performance if something like that is done or even possible.

[woz]

I expect we'll see some pleasant surprises in the 2007 OS, some that can't possibly work on the 770. Webcam functionality is certainly one area that won't.

This is not rocket science. Unless the overall footprint of the OS has increased significantly, it should simply be a matter of target build configuration. i.e. no webcam (I/O), no floating point, different CPU and memory map.

Having recently acquired the 770 as a distraction for doing some development work at home, I sure hope the Nokia team realizes how crucial it is to support the community and legacy products.

[gnuite]

I fully expect we may see one more generation of the product that possibly breaks with the N800, and then the design will settle in to the sort of maturity PCs enjoy and see OS upgrades that apply to more than one device.
All the more reason to avoid the N800. Excuse me if I don't appreciate being used as a beta tester only to be alienated later on.

The 770 boat is sinking, and many of us are left onboard. If this is the way Nokia's platform is going to work, then I'd rather drown now and cut my losses than spend another $400 (and a lot more of my sweat and tears) to delay the inevitable for just a little longer.

My 770 works just fine for my purposes, anyway. It's not myself for whom I lament. I don't need the N800 or OS 2007. I feel bad for the open-source supporters among us that figured that a linux-based platform would mean a slew of 3rd-party software applications. Now those 3rd-party developers are going to move to an "upgraded" platform, potentially forgetting Maemo 2.x entirely. It's one thing to upgrade an operating system via free download, but quite another to make it dependent on a new set of expensive hardware.

I feel bad for those of us that invested in a whim and stuck with its bugginess in quiet (or in some cases not-so-quiet) expectance of fixes and maybe even the occasional enhancement. After all, no company would knowingly alienate their best customers, the early adopters, would they? Well, in this case, they have. I guess Nokia is only looking out for the early re-adopters.

The 770, for me, was an experiment in hopes to replace my Palm-based PDA. Although that experiment mostly failed, I found something novel in it that turned out to be a whole lot better than the proprietary Palm OS. The flexibility of the 770 and its linux-based operating system afforded us with options that the Palm OS could never provide. And for that I am appreciative.

I don't, however, appreciate being abandoned, and although it isn't clear yet the extent of the abandonment, I am reluctant to believe that it will be insignificant.


(Apologies for the off-topic rant. I don't mean to sound so vitriolic. I'm just trying to get over this bitter taste in my mouth.)

[benny1967]

hardware improvements were implemented in the N800 that now require an OS break between the two devices.

Now the complaints are to the latter issue.

Come on, folks, it can't be both ways. As more information is revealed you should come to understand the necessity for the break. And as some have already acknowledged (while saying it "doesn't cut it") there will be an extension to maemo 2 that will bring the 770 closer to the N800. However, the devices are distinct enough that maemo 3 is warranted.


You say the hardware changes require an OS break. I don't see how this is true when I can run the same OS+Software on an old Intel Pentium with little RAM (you know, the ones that were considered fast at 90Mhz), an up to date AMD and a PowerPC, all of which have different hardware: graphics card, network controller etc. differ, one has no sound at all, only one of them is wifi-enabled, anther has a webcam attached...

Of course we're not talking about a binary image that can blindly be flashed onto the 770 as well as the N800. We're talking about the software as such (=the source) that should be compiled to run on both platforms. A 700 and a N800 are probably closer in hardware than the three desktop devices I took as an example above.

[hircus]

Is VPN support planned? Ideally supporting both PPTP and L2TP. The wi-fi capability of the web tablets are rather wasted on my campus network, which uses VPN instead of WEP or WPA.

[Texrat]

I think you guys are overreacting, to be honest. There will be updates to maemo 2-- that's already been announced. So why not wait to see what's incorporated before jumping the gun?

There were fundamental changes to the architecture. Did that absolutely necessitate a break? Perhaps not. But the N800 program leaders decided to introduce a new OS path and you should all realize, if you sit back and think objectively, that they didn't do so lightly. Surely you all realize they're aware of the same things you are!

As for the comment made about "not wanting to be a beta tester"-- please. It's come to the point that we all are, on every platform. I'm not saying that makes it right (I'm a developer and can assure you I don't like the status quo) but it has become a general reality so don't be so disingenuous as to claim the N800 (or the 770 for that matter) are unique in this regard. MS Windows is the largest continuous beta program on the planet!

I'd like to see more done by Nokia development but my guess is the 770 was the "let's see what happens if we toss this out there" device and that the N800 is intended to be the Real Deal archetype. So from now on I expect to see a more thorough, professional approach to development and support from Nokia-- and that of course includes "beta" updates to OS 2007. If not, I'll be *****ing and moaning right along with you. ;)

EDIT: oh, and the "The 770 boat is sinking" comment is hyperbolic beyond belief. If the device works for its user, it's not obsolete, abandoned, sinking or what have you. The "conventional wisdom" to the contrary is marketing brainwashing talking. :p

[Invicta]

All the more reason to avoid the N800. Excuse me if I don't appreciate being used as a beta tester only to be alienated later on.
John, I think you don't have to worry. If there is anyone with at least half a brain in Nokia, you will soon find your discount code from your inbox. It's us mere mortals, whose names won't live forever at list of authors in great open source softwares, that have to be worried. We will be ones forced to pay 400€/$ yearly(?) tax to Nokia if we want to use new software in the future.

[aleksandyr]

We will be ones forced to pay 400€/$ yearly(?) tax to Nokia if we want to use new software in the future.

My $400 was merely bi-annual. The hidden benefit of being an early adopter?

The point being made about the developer subsidy is that developers are being subsidized, in part, whereas the average user is getting nothing. Developers are therefore given an incentive to upgrade and develop for the N800, which in turn forces the average user to upgrade in order to be able to run software that might otherwise be developed for the N770.

A few people feel a bit icky about participating in this.

[gnuite]

MS Windows is the largest continuous beta program on the planet!
I'm not so sure you want to compare your OS with Microsoft Windows, especially in that respect. :)

Seriously, though, I abandoned Windows for that exact reason. Linux is no better in terms of stability, to be sure, but it's free, so I can't exactly expect flawlessness. Windows (and these Nokia devices) are expensive and should not subject their users to the kinds of issues that they experience.

To an extent, Nokia's OS should even be held to a higher standard than Windows, since the hardware on which it runs is fixed and unchanging (well, it used to be), which makes it more similar to Apple and OSX. I would like to see the Internet Tablet OS reach OSX's level of stability.

[Texrat]

I won't argue those points, because they are certainly sound. ;)

I just think people are jumping a bit too quickly vis-a-vis the OS issue.

[gnuite]

John, I think you don't have to worry. If there is anyone with at least half a brain in Nokia, you will soon find your discount code from your inbox.
Although I would appreciate that sentiment, it doesn't exactly address my issue. Even if they gave me a free N800, I wouldn't be appeased (although it would certainly facilitate testing Maemo Mapper on the N800 platform).

My issue is that of the software incompatibilities between the 770 and the N800. Addressing that would require Nokia bridging the software gap between the N800 and the 770, ensuring that 770 owners will not be left behind on a dieing platform. If the upcoming Maemo 2.x update does just that, then I will have little about which to complain. But considering I have received little to no encouragement from Nokia itself, I'm not very confident that the update will fit the bill exactly.

It's us mere mortals, whose names won't live forever at list of authors in great open source softwares, that have to be worried. We will be ones forced to pay 400€/$ yearly(?) tax to Nokia if we want to use new software in the future.
I appreciate the flattery, but in the open source world, authors are ordinary people with the same concerns as everyone else. In this case, I think all 770 owners that decide not to upgrade (including 3rd-party authors) should be worried about what an incompatible software upgrade might do to the future of their device.

[gnuite]

The point being made about the developer subsidy is that developers are being subsidized, in part, whereas the average user is getting nothing. Developers are therefore given an incentive to upgrade and develop for the N800, which in turn forces the average user to upgrade in order to be able to run software that might otherwise be developed for the N770.

A few people feel a bit icky about participating in this.
Quite right.

I want to take this opportunity to assure Maemo Mapper users that I will continue to provide support for the 770. Although this may seem obvious, since I am not upgrading to the N800, I want to emphasize that I would have provided this support even if I had decided to upgrade. If that support happens to benefit N800 users, then all the better. And where possible, I will try my best to support the new platform as well, but never at the expense of its usefulness on the 770.

This resolve shouldn't be very difficult to implement, since (as far as I know) there is nothing new and compelling in the N800 upon which Maemo Mapper can take advantage, except perhaps in pursuit of photographic geocoding functionality, for which I have no personal interest (others can surely contribute such code to the project if they wish).

I should clarify that my support remains with the 770 device, not just the 2006 OS. If the 770 device receives a free backward-incompatible OS update in 2007 (like it did in 2006), then future Maemo Mapper development will be geared toward that new OS (just as was the case between Maemo Mapper 0.x and 1.x). I hope this isn't unreasonable, considering the update is freely available to all 770 owners, unlike the N800.

Speaking of which, can someone with an N800 please test and see if Maemo Mapper 1.3.2 works on the N800? Also, I am curious to know if the Maemo Bluetooth Plugin works the same (particular with respect to Maemo Mapper). Thanks.

[Texrat]

I would gladly test maemo mapper, although I have no gps module... so the question becomes what could I test? I was never able to use it at all on the 770.

Also, does Bluetooth 2.0 offer any benefit for maemo mapper?

[aleksandyr]

I would gladly test maemo mapper, although I have no gps module... so the question becomes what could I test? I was never able to use it at all on the 770.

Also, does Bluetooth 2.0 offer any benefit for maemo mapper?

Whee offtopic!

You can test all of the relevant parts of maemo mapper without a bluetooth GPS (if you can perform a scan for nearby Bluetooth GPSes, it's basically certain that it will be possible to connect.) Just getting it to run will say quite a bit.

Bluetooth 2.0's benefit will be indirect. Higher data rates coupled with higher data rate phones will lead to a more responsive Maemo Mapper when downloading maps on the fly. NMEA GPS protocol (used by almost everything, including Maemo Mapper) works just fine at 4800bps. BT 2.0 with a BT 2.0 GPS may let you place the GPS farther away, might consume less battery, etc, but it's not going to create any new functionality or significantly improve the functionality of the GPS itself.

[jurop88]

Speaking of which, can someone with an N800 please test and see if Maemo Mapper 1.3.2 works on the N800? Also, I am curious to know if the Maemo Bluetooth Plugin works the same (particular with respect to Maemo Mapper). Thanks.

As a MaemoMapper user & supporter and a (future) owner of the n800 (already ordered for... ehr, uhm... my wife ?!? :D ) I'll check MM with the n800 as soon as it hits me (well, after have convinced my wife that's her birthday present, and hoping that she lends it to me, and also hoping that a flying n800 won't hit my head after my wife's launch... ) and let you know if noone else will do it before. Huh hoh, it seems a hard task!

[lbattraw]

I think you guys are overreacting, to be honest. There will be updates to maemo 2-- that's already been announced. So why not wait to see what's incorporated before jumping the gun?

There were fundamental changes to the architecture. Did that absolutely necessitate a break? Perhaps not. But the N800 program leaders decided to introduce a new OS path and you should all realize, if you sit back and think objectively, that they didn't do so lightly. Surely you all realize they're aware of the same things you are!

This is somewhat of a red herring, because we have no way of knowing what they were thinking, and to be honest it doesn't really matter. We are aware of two facts: the N800 has OS2007 and the 770 doesn't; there will be different branches of code for either platform, with the N800 having full, current support and the 770 having some promised improvements at a later undetermined date.


As for the comment made about "not wanting to be a beta tester"-- please. It's come to the point that we all are, on every platform. I'm not saying that makes it right (I'm a developer and can assure you I don't like the status quo) but it has become a general reality so don't be so disingenuous as to claim the N800 (or the 770 for that matter) are unique in this regard. MS Windows is the largest continuous beta program on the planet!

The issue is not that the 770 or the N800 is a beta test version, but that the first version of the device will receive a lesser/ambivalent level of support. The expectation in buying the 770 shared by myself and others is that there would be continuing and vibrant, open development on the device and Maemo platform. By deliberately segmenting the program releases into new/supported and old/to-be-announced leaves many people cold.


I'd like to see more done by Nokia development but my guess is the 770 was the "let's see what happens if we toss this out there" device and that the N800 is intended to be the Real Deal archetype. So from now on I expect to see a more thorough, professional approach to development and support from Nokia-- and that of course includes "beta" updates to OS 2007. If not, I'll be *****ing and moaning right along with you. ;)

EDIT: oh, and the "The 770 boat is sinking" comment is hyperbolic beyond belief. If the device works for its user, it's not obsolete, abandoned, sinking or what have you. The "conventional wisdom" to the contrary is marketing brainwashing talking. :p

I really appreciate the honesty and sincerity you've shown in working with the community here on ITT and I don't mean to tear down anything you or Nokia has done. There are just real concerns by those of us who feel we boarded the "Maemo/Linux Train" only to find our particular car has been shunted off to the side while the rest of the train apparently continues on without us. I've developed (smaller) embedded systems before and had my fair share of grief adapting to new and different hardware. To say that it's not possible or too difficult discounts all the work that has gone into making Linux portable to everything from toasters to supercomputers. Unlike PC hardware which has a myriad of configurations, peripherals, and CPU architectures, we have a total of two target platforms thus far. Whether the new OS runs more slowly (it does, I've tried the developer rootfs on the 770) or not, surely the changes to the devices are small enough to allow even such a modest team as has been dedicated to the development at Nokia to handle it.
As an aside, I would like to put forward the question: If the community works to patch the OS2007 sources so that the end result works on the 770, will Nokia work with us to integrate these changes? That would be the true test of the openness of the platform.

Larry

[gnuite]

I would gladly test maemo mapper, although I have no gps module... so the question becomes what could I test? I was never able to use it at all on the 770.
I'd be happy at least knowing that the .deb still installs and that the binary still runs (enough to show a black screen). Thanks!

Also, does Bluetooth 2.0 offer any benefit for maemo mapper?
That depends on whether or not it fixes the "random dropout" problem that we seemed to experience occasionally in Maemo 2.x. :)

On a serious note, my understanding is that the primary enhancement in BT2.0 is a 3Mbps data rate, which will do nothing at all for bluetooth GPS devices, since the NMEA protocol runs at 9600 bps. Even the touted 100-meter range is device dependent and doesn't make a lot of sense for use with a GPS receiver, since you likely want to know where you are, thus leading you to store the GPS receiver near you (and your 770).

[Texrat]

This is somewhat of a red herring, because we have no way of knowing what they were thinking, and to be honest it doesn't really matter. We are aware of two facts: the N800 has OS2007 and the 770 doesn't; there will be different branches of code for either platform, with the N800 having full, current support and the 770 having some promised improvements at a later undetermined date.

Ok. And I have to add since there's some confusion over my comments: I don't know 100% for sure that 2007 OS on the 770 is impossible. Several posters have made that argument and I simply responded as if they knew what they were talking about. I am not privy to information either way, sorry.

The issue is not that the 770 or the N800 is a beta test version, but that the first version of the device will receive a lesser/ambivalent level of support. The expectation in buying the 770 shared by myself and others is that there would be continuing and vibrant, open development on the device and Maemo platform. By deliberately segmenting the program releases into new/supported and old/to-be-announced leaves many people cold.

Someone made the hyperbolic "beta tester" comment and I responded to it.

But to your point: as I've said many times, even if the 2007 OS represents a path the 770 can't take, that alone does not ipso facto render the 770 dead. Its life at that point simply becomes one of sustainability for the most part rather than novelty. That said, I'd be just as disgruntled as everyone else IF Nokia stopped 770 development without providing the community with the means of continuing it. We'll see, right? Still too soon to kneejerk.

I really appreciate the honesty and sincerity you've shown in working with the community here on ITT and I don't mean to tear down anything you or Nokia has done. There are just real concerns by those of us who feel we boarded the "Maemo/Linux Train" only to find our particular car has been shunted off to the side while the rest of the train apparently continues on without us. I've developed (smaller) embedded systems before and had my fair share of grief adapting to new and different hardware. To say that it's not possible or too difficult discounts all the work that has gone into making Linux portable to everything from toasters to supercomputers. Unlike PC hardware which has a myriad of configurations, peripherals, and CPU architectures, we have a total of two target platforms thus far. Whether the new OS runs more slowly (it does, I've tried the developer rootfs on the 770) or not, surely the changes to the devices are small enough to allow even such a modest team as has been dedicated to the development at Nokia to handle it.
As an aside, I would like to put forward the question: If the community works to patch the OS2007 sources so that the end result works on the 770, will Nokia work with us to integrate these changes? That would be the true test of the openness of the platform.

Larry

Thanks, Larry. I appreciate your sober, well-reasoned posts (over some of the more emotional fare lately). Your last statements dovetail with what I said above. We'll see!

I will do what I can to continue as an advocate for both the device family and this community. Hopefully the right people in Nokia will listen. ;)

[NokNok770]

I had the 770 when it first came out. It has only been a year and there's another model out already. Frankly I think Nokia should spend their efforts improving and debugging this thing instead of spending their time creating a new device so soon. What will come of the 770, is it just going to sit in the back burner while nokia developers work on the N800? We can't flash Maemo 3.0 on it. I hope this doesn't mean the death of the 770. I can't be spending 400 dollars every year to upgrade this thing. I almosst bought a N800, but after some time and consideration, I think I'll hold off on it , the 770 still serves its purpose as an "internet tablet"

Long live the 770

[beowabbit]

I strongly suspect that there will be a future release of something very much like OS 2007 (modulo flash-size limitations) for the N770. Even if Nokia were planning that all along (which I hope they were), I doubt it would have been ready exactly upon release of the N800, because I imagine there was a huge pre-release push to get 3.0 ready for the new hardware, which can't ship without it. If OS 2007 isn't running well on the new hardware, then they are shipping bricks in a box. If OS 2007 isn't running reliably on the N770, all those N770s out there don't immediately become bricks. So I would expect Nokia to put almost no effort into making sure OS 2007 is reliable on N770 hardware until after the N800 has shipped. I hope that now they'll seek to leverage all the mindshare of N770 developers (and end users) out there and get OS 2007 running on older hardware.

(Anybody happen to know how full the N800's onboard flash is out of the box?)

[Texrat]

I had the 770 when it first came out. It has only been a year and there's another model out already. Frankly I think Nokia should spend their efforts improving and debugging this thing instead of spending their time creating a new device so soon. What will come of the 770, is it just going to sit in the back burner while nokia developers work on the N800? We can't flash Maemo 3.0 on it. I hope this doesn't mean the death of the 770. I can't be spending 400 dollars every year to upgrade this thing. I almosst bought a N800, but after some time and consideration, I think I'll hold off on it , the 770 still serves its purpose as an "internet tablet"

Long live the 770

...

Do you realize you contradicted yourself in your own post? :lol:

Anyway, In many ways the N800 IS the 770 "debugged and upgraded"... so I'm not sure what you're after here. Did you want the same form factor but with better hardware? Or are you simply referring to the OS? If it's the latter, I do understand the point many have made there but no one is obsoleting the 770, as you acknowledge in your last statement. The N800 is a new device. It has a new OS that the 770 won't share 100%. Oh well. The 770 WILL still get an upgrade, and it will continue to be useful. Maybe I'll hang on to mine still, too. Long live the 770, indeed. ;)

EDIT: beowabbit for the win. Good call, sir.

[fallenguru]

I'm not a 770 user or an N800 one for that matter - I've been toying with the idea of getting one for quite a while, though ...

What I'd like to know is, what does Nokia gain from forking a new (from the consumer and probably developer standpoint) OS for the N800?

Fragmenting the user base in this way doesn't seem to be a very good idea, not because some may feel that their gadget is now obsolete, but because it kills Maemo as a platform. Users should be able to download an app for a Maemo device and expect it to run on their device in principle.

Likewise, no hobby developer wants to maintain two versions of their app, not on the source level, not even on the binary level, really.

[aleksandyr]

I'm not a 770 user or an N800 one for that matter - I've been toying with the idea of getting one for quite a while, though ...

What I'd like to know is, what does Nokia gain from forking a new (from the consumer and probably developer standpoint) OS for the N800?

Fragmenting the user base in this way doesn't seem to be a very good idea, not because some may feel that their gadget is now obsolete, but because it kills Maemo as a platform. Users should be able to download an app for a Maemo device and expect it to run on their device in principle.

Likewise, no hobby developer wants to maintain two versions of their app, not on the source level, not even on the binary level, really.

It firebombs the N770, forcing users to upgrade and killing the N770's resale value, ensuring it will disappear from the market. I like to think that's not their intent, but it's an economically viable plan.

[fallenguru]

As for the comment about the 770 not being able to runn 2007 OS ... of course not the same flash image, but something that has the same look, functionality (hardware permitting) and APIs shouldn't be a problem.

I have an 800 Mhz EPIA with 128MB RAM that runs Debian i386 and a newish Pentium D with 2GB that runs the same OS. No, I don't do video editing on the EPIA, but it's still the same OS, running the same apps. In theory, the same distro should run on a 386 as per its name. That's what I'd expected for Maemo. Double RAM, Double Mhz, better CPU ... nice, but no quantum leap.

[Banner]

I second that! As someone who is involved in creating technology products and has been for many years, I learned a long time ago that your best customer's are the one who jumped on board early and if you alienate them you pretty much will self destruct future growth of a product. At the very least Nokia has to support the 770 with updates for the next 12 months so that it's core base can feel comfortable moving to the next generation products.

I just wonder if the Product Manager from Nokia will ever read this...

Nope. Nokia has already shown that they don't really care what the customer says. And they've completely alienated me. I'll never buy one of their products again. I probably should put my 770 on ebay to try and recoup at least some of my losses, but with the 800 in stores now, I doubt I'd get enough money to make it worth while.

[TA-t3]

I had the 770 when it first came out. It has only been a year and there's another model out already.
For what it's worth, if you compare the 770 with the most similar devices out there, i.e. PDAs, the practice of coming out with a new model every year (or more often!) is the norm, not the exception.

On the other hand, the idea of slacking off the support for older devices is one that has backfired on more than one PDA vendor. Palm, for example, which has always had a very _very_ loyal customer base has p*ssed off a lot of people lately because they concentrate all the effort on the latest Treos, while they won't even come out with the simplest, smallest updates necessary to let the owners of older devices BT connect with the newest phones or more providers. This has made a lot of people angry and sent them over to the PPC (MS) crowd instead.
I've got two Tungsten T3's myself, bought a spare when they stopped making them because none of the newer devices are as good a match to what I need, but it sure is annoying to be left behind.
Hey, I'm getting an N800 now :-) We'll see how that turns out..

Oh, as input to the thread: What about printing from the device? As for usage patterns, I plan to carry it around from meeting to meeting in the office, instead of that chunky laptop. The N800 has got a reasonable screen, wi-fi, BT keyboard support if I need it (I'm fine with stylus keyboard input though) web browser and email reader, so it should be good for this. Better than my T3 I hope, because of the larger screen (480x800 vs. 320x480). Thus some of what I need is approx. like this:
- VPN, specifically OpenVPN (the kernel has TUN support, right? Shouldn't be a problem then?)
- If I'm on VPN I should be able to print PS and PDF files (i.e. normal cups/lpr support) over the network
- The email support should be good, if I get something that works as well as versamail+gmail on my Palm PDA I'm happy (I don't have my N800 yet but I mention this because I've heard that the standard email app on the 770 isn't much to write home about)
- Good PDF reader. PalmPDF works great on the Palm (depends a bit on the PDF file though), and it's based on xpdf (but looks nothing like it), so it should be possible, right?

(Maybe I'll edit and add if I think of more)

(Edit: Corrected screen size typo)

[Texrat]

I absolutely agree TA-t3: I want to see printing. There has been such silence on that subject...

[DaScud]

I had the N770 for over a year now and use it frequently. I use it for casual browsing and as my car media player. One thing I really miss is a keyboard though a stowaway could easily fix that. Is nokia considering a version with a slide out keyboard or at least bundle a BT kb that doesnt cost $100. ANother question is when is the Navicore bundle going to be available for the US market.

DaScud

[aleksandyr]

I absolutely agree TA-t3: I want to see printing. There has been such silence on that subject...

See developers forum. ;)

[hircus]

- VPN, specifically OpenVPN (the kernel has TUN support, right? Shouldn't be a problem then?)
- If I'm on VPN I should be able to print PS and PDF files (i.e. normal cups/lpr support) over the network
...
- Good PDF reader. PalmPDF works great on the Palm (depends a bit on the PDF file though), and it's based on xpdf (but looks nothing like it), so it should be possible, right?


Seconding you on VPN and printing. For interoperability's sake, a client that's feature-compatible with the clients in Windows and OS X would be nice (PPTP + AFAIR an L2TP client).

For PDF reader, have you tried Evince?

[Bromo33333]

I don't, however, appreciate being abandoned, and although it isn't clear yet the extent of the abandonment, I am reluctant to believe that it will be insignificant.


(Apologies for the off-topic rant. I don't mean to sound so vitriolic. I'm just trying to get over this bitter taste in my mouth.)

I bought the 770 in the last days ($100 rebate) and I am happy with it, but I am surprised that it was replaced with an incompatible platform so quickly. :eek:

Such is life, but it might be nice to allow for a "turn in allowance" a-la what they did for the Pepper Pad, because that would take the sting out of the upgrade price if you were so inclined. :)

After all, they are taking some risks at orphaning the platforms, and make it up by attracting the later adopters, though with the "iPhone" the later adopters will gravitate towards that if it really does everything they say it does, and Nokia shows a track record of orphaning hardware.

If Nokia were to offer a tade-in allowance of $100 towards the new one, I would probably jump on it. I doubt they will, and I will then save my pennies for an iPhone or get a UMPC. The N770 is fun enough, but without support it won't be fun for long - since it still has some glitches...

I will agree that Nokia may want to do these things due to "fast paced development" and so on. But leaving a track record of unstable, orphaned hardware will ruin the entire platform. The suits will blame the "iPhone" or some such I am sure, but not taking care of your base is what does it.