Competition in the iPhone?

[gnuite]

Steve Jobs just keynoted at Macworld 2007, introducing (among other things) the iPhone. Engadget has the run-down (http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/live-from-macworld-2007-steve-jobs-keynote/).

I think that what is particularly interesting is its Nokia-770ish avoidance of a dedicated hardware keyboard in favor of an on-screen keyboard (driven by fingers, not a stylus). They call it "MultiTouch." I think it's funny that one of the major complaints about the 770 has been its lack of a keyboard. Now that Apple is doing it do, I bet those complaints disappear (because somehow Apple can do no wrong). Oh yeah, and Apple seems somehow to have "patented" MultiTouch, although I'm not sure exactly what that means.

At a $499 price point (with 2-year mobile contract, though, I think), this might actually be some serious competition for the 770. It does everything the 770/n800 does (camera, WiFi, Bluetooth) and more (2 megapixels, GSM, Edge, no 3G though). Like the 770, it's based on a "complete" operating system (OSX vs. Linux). The screen is a bit smaller (3.5 inch, looks like maybe 640x400?), but so is the form factor.

I avoid Apple (too expensive and proprietary), so I won't buy one. But I thought it might be interesting to discuss the competition possibilities.

Edit: Aaaand here's a related thread (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3913) that I didn't find earlier because it didn't mention iPhone. My bad. :)

[MaxP]

While the iPhone looks good, it's res is still lower at 480 x 320. Note, the multitouch technology was originally pushed by Fingerworks, with their Touchstream keyboards, which are fantastic (I have a couple). Sadly these are no longer available - but guess who was widely rumoured to have bought them (Fingerworks) a couple of years ago?

If the technology is anything like as good in the iPhone it will be great.

Max

[Nyrath]

Agreed. One of the things that sold me on the 770 was the fantastic screen resolution.

[uczmeg]

Just been talking about this with a group of Mac lovers.

It looks an amazing device, with a stunning interface and lovely technology.

But it is going to be very expensive, I'm hearing $499 with a $60 per month 2 year contract, especially when you can compare that with the functionality of other phones from Nokia or pocket PC based that can essentially do more and are practically free on a contract like that.

And it still all falls down on the screen resolution.

I've tried so many devices to get a decent web experience, and it just doesn't work on anything less than an 800 wide screen. Again in this area Nokia is still the king!

If I can find the cash, I'll still get an iPhone too though! ;)


I still want an iPhone

[Nyrath]

The thing that caught my attention is the multi-touch interface. You can use two fingers at once, for chording commands, re-sizing, and whatnot.

[lmf]

multitouch?
ah...
look at how jobs types an email... (on the iphone keynote video)
he uses one finger... very slowly...

any kid can type an sms faster on a simple phone...

it kind of reminds me of the apple mouse... 1 button only...
as a joke, it used to be said, that it was because people who used them weren't smart enough to use a mouse with more than one button.. :)

;)

[NokNok770]

Ipod killed the walkman. Will iPhone kill nokia?

[johsua]

Interesting tidbit for this discussion:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/

Basically it's not really a competitor as you can't add/change software - something that is obviously key to the 770/800.

[NokNok770]

Wow you can't change batteries?...I guess like the iPod, Stevo expects you to buy a new one every year or so when it stops charging. What's with all these devices lasting a year then having to get a new one....(770).

[NokNok770]

How can it run OSX and not be able to install additional software. I think that is not a true statement.

[infinitespecter]

If this lives up to it's promises, this will be one hell of a device. I was all set to replace my Treo and 770 this year, and this looks like it will be a good replacement for both. I got somewhat bored, so I decided to see how it stacks up to it's WiFi internet browsing competition. Conclusion is that it is tiny, dwarfed by everything. Not sure how useable it will be on the web, but I will give it a shot. I also added a comparison that includes the Newton.

http://www.terminal34.net/iphonesize.jpg
http://www.terminal34.net/newtoniphone.jpg

[NokNok770]

Wow...I didn't know the n800 was slightly wider but shorter than the 770. I've seen the sony mylo at sony style store, if the screen is even smaller than that...forget it...you're not going to be able to read anything on the iPhone.

[Fidibus]

the chance for nokia and linux is - if they want to win:

Focus on the important things -

- User comfort - no Linux only for Freaks - keep it simple (look iphone)

- more speed (CPU and RAM) - even it costs a little more

- focus up (itunes competition, google calendar, docs, spreadsheets, maps) - application for beginners

- focus up of the 10 most important applications - less is more

Have a look on - http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/j47d52oo/event/

:) then is clear - which (Linux developer and Nokia) must be made - focus focus focus :)

I am strained on the future - competition animates the business

Linux and Nokia has all chances - they have 12 months time - use it

http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3613

Fidibus

today, the N800 package comes -
and I am pleased - because I can now use it - and not in 12 months :) :) :)

[Milhouse]

Synaptic have similar mutli-touch technology so it's possible something like it could appear on a future Nokia device, however I'm trying to think when I have ever wanted to use more than one finger on my 770 and I'm really struggling.

It's possible that mutli-touch is no big deal at all, and just the usual hype.

Someone on #maemo who attended CES today (Tuesday) also stated that the iPhone is locked down from a software perspective - there will be extra widgets to install but other than that, that's it you can't change the software. And the widgets can only come from Apple, and not third parties. Frankly, the iPhone is just a very expensive media phone with lots of bling and nothing more.

And it's not likely to be running OS X - most likely it's a stripped down kernel with similar OS X APIs for widgets and maybe a few other things.

[argh]

I like the Nokia 770, and I imagine the 800 is a good improvement. At the same time, the faults of the device keep it from being a blackberry replacement and relegate it as a hobbyist toy for me.

I have been hoping for months that the iPhone would be a viable Blackberry replacement. My fingers are still crossed. Yes, it will be much more locked down than a 770; it's a phone and that is the game. (For that reason, I was *sure* Apple would go the MVNO route! Wrong...)

The size of the device looks perfect, and the resolution is a great improvement over everything by the 770/800. If the touchscreen works as well as my MacBookPro's touchpad, there are plenty of great opportunities with the UI. My only concern is that I haven't seen a landscape version of the keyboard yet... but Apple couldn't possibly have forgotten to provide that, right?!

It is expensive, but not too far out of the park for what it offers.

[gnuite]

The size of the device looks perfect, and the resolution is a great improvement over everything by the 770/800.
The resolution is a great improvement? Nokia's 800x480 beats Apple's 320x480. Unless you're talking about that other kind of resolution (pixels per inch), in which case Nokia's 225ppi still beats Apple's 160ppi.

The iPhone is interesting competition, but with such a small screen, it isn't even in the same league as the 770/n800.

[infinitespecter]

The resolution is a great improvement? Nokia's 800x480 beats Apple's 320x480. Unless you're talking about that other kind of resolution (pixels per inch), in which case Nokia's 225ppi still beats Apple's 160ppi.

The iPhone is interesting competition, but with such a small screen, it isn't even in the same league as the 770/n800.



Perhaps not directly, but it comes closer then virtually anything else. The 770 platform has a LOT of promise, but as someone mentioned before, it is more of a hobbyists toy then anything else. I love mine to death, but I don't know anyone else who would put up with the instability, lackluster performance, and other issues for it. Well, perhaps WIndows users (:p ).

[Raptor]

The resolution independent nature of the interface for the iPhone should make up for the lowered resolution.

However, nothing makes up for this:

“We define everything that is on the phone,” he said. “You don’t want your phone to be like a PC. The last thing you want is to have loaded three apps on your phone and then you go to make a call and it doesn’t work anymore. These are more like iPods than they are like computers.” (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/11/technology/11cnd-apple.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

No contest. The iPhone will not replace my 770 *or* my Treo.

[freeman]

The resolution is a great improvement? Nokia's 800x480 beats Apple's 320x480. Unless you're talking about that other kind of resolution (pixels per inch), in which case Nokia's 225ppi still beats Apple's 160ppi.

The iPhone is interesting competition, but with such a small screen, it isn't even in the same league as the 770/n800.

You forgot the camera resolution, in which case Apple beat Nokia. I'm no Apple fan boy, I just call it like is. Be fair, just because we are geeks doesn't mean we have to play favorite toward linux.

[uczmeg]

You forgot the camera resolution, in which case Apple beat Nokia. I'm no Apple fan boy, I just call it like is. Be fair, just because we are geeks doesn't mean we have to play favorite toward linux.

I'm dissapointed with the camera on the iPhone (I don't even count the N800's camera as a camera. It's a web cam, nothing more).

They wanted an all in one device, well a 2 mega pixel camera isn't going to replace anyone's digital camera and the better camera phones are all on 3 mega pixels+ now. Such a waste.

[freeman]

I'm dissapointed with the camera on the iPhone (I don't even count the N800's camera as a camera. It's a web cam, nothing more).

They wanted an all in one device, well a 2 mega pixel camera isn't going to replace anyone's digital camera and the better camera phones are all on 3 mega pixels+ now. Such a waste.

I didn't say the iPhone camera is great, Heck I have my Canon EOS 20D and Fujifilm FinePix F10 for that. They are both like 4.5 stars. But, I'm just saying since somebody keep the score on N800&iPhone, it should be count right.

[Raptor]

A 2 megapixel phone camera won't replace a digicam?

What about my 2MP digicam? The CCD finally gave out, so it's time for a new camera. While I'm not the biggest iPhone fan, it's a flash away from replacing my camera, since I realized a long time ago that I simply don't *need* more than 2MP for snapshots.

For anything beyond snapshots, I need an SLR, a few lenses, a bag of filters, a flash, and possibly a floodlamp. Then I need three types of color film, minimum, and possibly a few rolls of B&W film, both ISO 25 and ISO 100, depending on what I'm shooting.

Fact is, you're either taking shots which need a crapload of detail, or something quick to show to your friends and family. The middle-ground isn't there for most consumers.

[freeman]

Fact is, you're either taking shots which need a crapload of detail, or something quick to show to your friends and family. The middle-ground isn't there for most consumers.

Yea, there are, look for all the new cool phone in Japan. They are all like 4-5MP, some even take good picture rival those old 3MP you have. They are just not being offer to the US market. If you like to know why, ask you Cell carrier.

[Texrat]

Cell carriers are absurdly restrictive in their offerings. It's insane. I wish we had a truly open market in the US.

[seoul_suicide]

the iphone is a complete piece of junk in my opinion... Yes, I am anti-apple/ipod but seriously.. Ipod had nothing innovative in it.. any company could have made something like that (and they do)... Ok ok i do admit the scrollwheel and the nano actually were 2 innovations no other company has come up with but the rest is just junk... They even stole Creatives navigation system~

As for the iphone.. Whats new besides the multitouch? Apple always sacrifices a lot of great features/hardware qualities and still tends to charge you.. why? looks.. everything apple comes up with is priced mostly for the looks (everybody probably already knows this but i'd like to point it out for the iphone specifically).. ipod, macbook, lcds, desktops, and now iphone - all overpriced products due to just cool looks..

i personally don't care about the looks TOO much v.s. the hardware/features. some of you may have read my other post about choosing the 770 over the 800 primarily for the case and looks.. now im not a two face but the n800 looks pretty ugly imo and i don't really need the extra ram, webcam, etc.. although i would love to have more internal memory on the 770~

[Karel Jansens]

For my money, if I'd ever buy a smartphone again, it'd be the FIC Neo1973, provided it ever gets past the developer stage.

http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS2986976174.html

Then again, my next cellphone will probably be the cheapest Bluetooth-enabled model I can find that automagically pairs with NokiLLO and doesn't have Nokia's infamous Bluetooth leak (anyone who's ever tried Bluejack on the P910 will know that Nokias are easy prey for that prankster).

Or, if Nokia keeps disappointing me with the "Internet" Tablet platform, it might turn out to be the FIC after all.

[mwiktowy]

You forgot the camera resolution, in which case Apple beat Nokia. I'm no Apple fan boy, I just call it like is. Be fair, just because we are geeks doesn't mean we have to play favorite toward linux.

Looks to me like the iPhone, when it comes out in 6 months from now, will include a still image digital camera not a video camera. Comparing taking a still image at 2 Mpixel to a VGA video stream is a little like comparing apples and oranges.

That along with the inclusion of a GSM phone, likely a planned-obsolescent non-replaceable battery, wildly inferior screen resolutions and no third-party apps allowed, it baffles me why anyone thinks they are competitors. It is far more similar to an upgraded Qtopia Greenphone (or, like Karel mentioned, the FIC Neo1973 which has twice the screen resolution of the iPhone) ... but with none of the openness.

[Texrat]

Yeah, these are really not competitive products IMO. The people who would buy one will not likely buy the other. Two different audiences.

[oafbot]

Apple always sacrifices a lot of great features/hardware qualities and still tends to charge you.. why? looks.. everything apple comes up with is priced mostly for the looks (everybody probably already knows this but i'd like to point it out for the iphone specifically).. ipod, macbook, lcds, desktops, and now iphone - all overpriced products due to just cool looks..


Thats right!!!
thats why a vain mac user like me has been using macs for the past 15 years... those Mac IIsi sure were really really stylish machines... please! I have heard these spurious pro-windows arguments before. Apple, not always, but quite often integrates new technologies as a standard long before other companies do (take wifi for example). This stuff about Macs being underpowered and overpriced is for the most part unwarranted. Besides, I don't mind paying the premium price for the pleasure of using OSX anyday over a half-baked OS like windows or many linux desktops distros for that matter (sorry, flame on). Sure I prefer open source, but no one puts the amount of attention to detail that Apple does to its products.

That having been said, I don't particularly care for ipods and its navigation system, or what MP3s have done to my music listening experience.

I also see lots of shortcomings with the iphone. But I see some potential too.
I'm happy to finally have a smartphone that'll sync with OSX seamlessly (my Nokia e61 does not). Its also nice to have a email device that seems dependable that's not a crackberry. The 770 email client was really lacking in this respect. However the crappy iphone screen resolution will make my 770 still dance circles around it in terms of web surfing experience. Lack of 3g and gps are also big iphone detractors.

Also Apple's not successful at what they do because they are innovators. They are great at what they do, because of the obsessive attention to detail they put into their products. Nothing in the original 1984 Mac was all that new. Those ideas were recycled from Xerox PARC. And hardware-wise nothing in the iphone is all that new, but you can almost bet that the UI and the software will be well polished.

From most of your statements it seems that you are unfamiliar with Apple before the advent of the ipod and the second coming of steve jobs. Were you even born when the first mac came out in 1984. Did you have to deal with the hell that was DOS and OS2? Why don't you go back to trolling slashdot n00b.

I don't worship apple, but I know the contributions they've made over the years to computing, and at least I don't curse at my computer everyday like my coworkers who use windows.

flame on.

[Raptor]

1) Apple's all about fit and finish.
2) Apple's all about ease of use.
3) Apple's all about selling the best possible product to the average consumer.

The iPhone seems to fit right in with these targets, and really, what price would you pay for something that does the basics, but does them well? Mobile email, even on a Blackberry, is lacking in a few big desktop features. Mobile browsing on anything south of the 770 is pretty much junk, for that matter. I'm not saying that the iPhone is as good as the 770 on that front, but it's as good as you can get with that screen, I'll bet.

As for the platform/performance arguments, let's leave it at this: My 867 MHz AlBook is still more usable than comparable PC laptops from the same era, and I'm running Tiger on it quite comfortably. Yes, a modern laptop would be able to play more games, crank out much more work in Photoshop, etc., but as a general purpose computer, it's more than adequate. Apple squeezes a ton of functionality out of their hardware, well more than you see from Microsoft, which is probably the one good thing about Apple's control from the software down to the silicon.

[fldude99]

The basic issue here is if someone is looking for an "all in one" device or not. My conclusion is that if one wants an all in one then there will be some sacrificing..you can never get the quality of a good digital camera combined with a cellphone for example as opposed to a cell and good dig cam separately..altho recently they are sure getting better and the cams on cellphones are almost acceptable for everyday use. The N800 doesn't really do anything at all that can't be done with other devices..it's just smaller and easier to tote around..isn't that the bottom line? I mean the N800 obviously doesn't have the capabilities of a laptop..but if it's a pain to lug a laptop..so you will sacrifice and use the N800 if it suits the need. Bottom line for me is I don't believe an all in one device is possible in this day and age..the closest thing I have seen that can compete with the N800 and a cellphone combined is the Cingular 8525 (HTC Tytn)..excellent device but who wants to always be tied to such a huge cellphone? So for me I'd rather have my SE810i for my cell needs, and the N800 toy for occasional web needs when I'm in a hotspot. The jury is still out on the N800 though. I've had it for 3 wks now and after the initial "wow this is cool" wore off..it's really just a toy as far as I'm concerned. If you want VOIP mobile..get a SMC skype phone..if you want a mini web machine..get the smallest laptop you can find..etc etc..I would probably send it back to Nokia..but for me it's cheap enough that I don't mind to just have as is..a toy and sometimes useful when a laptop is not around. All comes down to economics I guess and what you really want in your tools and toys. Sorry for rambling..hard to put thoughts and feelings on "paper"...