Brainstorm - Open Discussion [Archive] - maemo.org

chemist

01-13-2010, 09:50 AM

Lately... Flandry, Quim, Randy and myself started to talk about what to do with the current Brainstorm situation.

How do we handle threads without response for a longer period of time?
Mark and keep? Close and archive?

Were is the right place to discuss app/enhancement requests?

Were do we start bug attention catchers?
Isn't bug-voting and a Community thread to talk about it enough for getting attention and show how much interest exists?

At the bugtracker we have the option to link dependencies. Would it be useful to have this feature at Brainstorm and Talk:Brainstorm?
Example: Brianstorm1 proposes a mulitusersystem. Brainstorm2 needs a multiusersystem to get their solution working and people start to integrate it within their solutions, what may cross the whole Brainstorm1 where also people are working on solutions.
Should we merge these or link them to prevent working on one topic in different directions?!

Please feel free to share your thoughts, ideas and problems!
Do not discuss server problems here, please.

This thread may split into new Brainstorm threads over time, for now I want to start an open discussion.

Flandry

01-13-2010, 10:18 AM

We also need to come to a better-defined understanding with the-powers-that-be about a few things in the interest of avoiding duplication of effort and frustration from would-be participants. Many have voiced dissatisfaction with brainstorm as an "opiate of the masses" catch-all graveyard for issues Nokia doesn't want to fix. So:

What criteria separate an item that should be a bug report from a brainstorm?

What is the policy for prioritizing work on bugzilla solutions, brainstorm solutions, and other projects?

...

Texrat

01-13-2010, 10:34 AM

One thing for frustrated users to keep in mind: this is a developing system and process. Abject complaining won't help improve it much, but solid suggestions will-- but even more so, ownership of solutions. That's where the chain is really breaking, and it has a ripple effect: people see little or no action, quit participating upfront, and start complaining all over the place.

I challenge everyone to go through the actual Brainstorms (not just the Talk subforum) and see if you find something that fits your fancy, and you can act upon. Every little bit helps!

mece

01-13-2010, 10:47 AM

I think brainstorming has improved massively since the talk threads started coming. I think it's up to the people with the brainstorms to keep the discussion going and get votes.

But brainstorms that seem to be going nowhere could be archived imo. Would be nice with a message to the originator first, and see if he or she want's to try to activate the problem somehow.

ruskie

01-13-2010, 10:49 AM

Hmm I'd like some good process for when a feature is deemed accepted or so.

Currently a feature that has 200 votes for it would be above one with only 15 but how do you classify which one would be good to go and wich one not?

Sorry for the odd response... my brain isn't feeling up to cohession.

RevdKathy

01-13-2010, 02:10 PM

One of the problems I have with brainstorm is the different categories: proposal, brainstorm, sandbox, under-development... I get confused as to what is being suggested by ignorant people like me who just have an idea, what is being suggested because it's doable and what is actually being done.

Hence I have never started a thread in there (Who said "Must be the only forum on the board"? :D) The place, while less daunting than bugzilla,is still a protocol I don't 'get'. And last time I tried to add a suggestion to a brainstorm, the brainstorm system itself hiccupped twice and keeled over comatose.

Could we do something with the categories/codes so it is a) obvious what each category means and b) instantly visible. Can vBulletin do colour coded titles? - say purple for suggestions, yellow for things under discussion, green for projects under development, and red for ones which seem to have stalled?

And would it be too big a burden on the Brainstorm mods (now there's more of them) to ask them to contact the proposer after a fixed term - say 3 months after the proposal - to check on whether its progressing or dropped? Then it might be possible to search the brainstorm forum according to the status of projects.

And to take up Texrat's challenge - we need a 'monthly auction' of projects which have got lots of votes and appear to be viable but don't have anyone picking them up - or a weekly featured 'unloved suggestion' like the dogs home do to place unloved dogs. With sentimental pictures and a sob story of how this proposal came to be abandoned by its original owners.

Texrat

01-13-2010, 02:19 PM

Good point Kathy. Brainstorm requires a triage process that isn't really there. That requires a champion. I'd love to take on that role, but at present it's problematic. Any takers?

qgil

01-13-2010, 02:31 PM

Many have voiced dissatisfaction with brainstorm as an "opiate of the masses" catch-all graveyard for issues Nokia doesn't want to fix.

There were two main motivations in the creation of Brainstorm:

1. Bugzilla seen as a non-friendly tool for non-tech people that otherwise might have great ideas proposing and discussing new features. It's not that black & white but you know what I mean.

2. Separation between bugs and features seen as useful also for Nokia since the acceptance of bugs comes usually from developers while the acceptance of features comes usually from product managers. It's not that black & white but you know what I mean.

The Maemo product managers are eager to see a Brainstorm with great ideas, fruitful discussion and plenty of votes, showing the proposals worth prioritizing and considering first. But they suffer the very same problems reported by users since they are users themselves: slow server, difficulty to follow the activities, process not very polished, categories not very clear...

About the categories, I posted an alternative proposal but I got no feedback: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=33223

Bec

01-13-2010, 03:14 PM

I think we should prioritize things that are obvious to the user.

I'm a previous symbian owner and it was very annoying every time an update came out, there was a huge update list out of which nothing was visible, absolutely nothing!
Obviously it was quite disappointing...

I suggest once in a while we should have a sticky voting poll as dunno if it's just me but I think most users are lazy to vote/the brainstorm section really moves(/moved) slow.

What do you think?

Any takers?
I'd like to try and help if it's possible :)
Out of my favorite brainstorms I'd only promote the app manager improvement and allowing the browser to start videos in the media player (this is already implemented for divx so that should be quick and improve browsing sites youtube and dalymotion).

RevdKathy

01-13-2010, 03:18 PM

I think you'd be an excellent person for that, Bec. :)

Texrat

01-13-2010, 03:28 PM

So Bec-- wanna add "Brainstorm Champion" to your signature? :D

benny1967

01-13-2010, 03:50 PM

My problem with brainstorm is that I'm a 1|0, black|white person. That's a bad thing for brainstorms in general. ;)

I also have to admit, before I write on, that I prefer bugzilla a lot over brainstorm: Bugzilla is easier to handle. You can search it easily. You can see status, dependency,.. plus, and that's the biggest advantage, you usually get some direct input from the Vatican. At some point you'll know: They'll do it in PR1.2. Or: They don't think it's useful and will never do it. A WONTFIX is a good thing because you'll know what's not gonna happen.

But there's two things in particular I simply don't understand (even though in principle I think I could like the idea... someday):

1) Brainstorm vs. Bugzilla - "no brainers"

There's this rule of "very specific and no-brainer enhancement requests" for bugzilla. Sounds nice. But then there's also bugs like 1889 (camera support for flash plug-in) (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1889) that from my POV couldn't be any more specific than they are: Somebody switched flash support off for privacy reasons... and the bug is about re-enabling it. It's not the big "How to get camera support for the Flash plug-in"-discussion. It's plain and simple: Re-enable it. You took it away, put it back in. Will you? If not, WONTFIX.
I don't see how such bugs can be reasonably transferred over to brainstorm if there's only one possible solution, nothing to discuss or suggest, only those who say "yes" and those who say "no". - There would be something to discuss if the original bug would clearly be commented upon as WONTFIX. Then a brainstorm would make sense. Like: "Nokia will not let us use the cam on cam4.com. - How can we work around this? Any ideas?" - Do you see the difference?

So for me, brainstorm is a place where people can discuss the "How": Solution #1, solution #2, solution #3, then vote for one of them, discuss on t.m.o. etc.
If there's no reason to discuss a "How" (at least as long as Nokia doesn't comment on how they're gonna handle the problem), if it's as simple as "Please enable feature X in application Y" - what good is brainstorm? Why go to maemo.org and discuss with the community if I want Nokia to change code?

2) Responsibility, process, workflow,... or whatever you call it

Bugs are a beautiful thing. You report them, others vote, you're asked for more input, and eventually they'll tell you that they fixed it - or that they decided not to because Diablo's dead. Whatever. But the point is: When I open a bug report, I talk to somebody and get an answer. I start something that will be worked upon (reliably) and come to an end, even if this end is WONTFIX.

Brainstorm is different. You write there - and then what? Who is responsible? Will somebody look at it and say: Hey, this is a good idea, let's do it? Who? Is this something that should be done by community members? Do Nokians read the brainstorm? If solutions are discussed and solution #1 has 2 votes and solution #2 has 50 votes - is it OK to close the brainstorm as soon as you implemented solution #1? (Because somehow some kind of solution was implemented, just not the one people wanted.)

I don't understand it. I remember I proposed some solutions here or there, but I don't even follow what's going on on those pages because I don't know what to expect.
With bugs it's different. I actively follow many bugs. Because I know that there is a certain lifecycle of a bug and its story will eventually come to an end... either a happy end or not. Bugs are like books or films. Brainstorms, at the moment, are like advertising folders I get from the local supermarket every now and then. They don't have a timeline.... nothing happens... and you're not sure if anything should happen at all.

That's why I'm unsure about brainstorm. Maybe if somebody could help me about my point 2 (responsibility, workflow), I'd get a better idea of how to use it.

egoshin

01-13-2010, 04:09 PM

Sorry guys, but at current time brainstrom is very difficult to use. I tried it at least twice but Firefox just sleeps forever, waiting answer from web site after I submit a proposal. I am not expert in top level apps and I don't know why is it but techincally it is difficult today.

Texrat

01-13-2010, 04:30 PM

You certainly raise valid points and ask the right questions benny.

But it's hard to pigeonhole something like Brainstorm into a 1|0 box. It isn't a black-and-white process-- However, it should LEAD to black and white action, ultimately. That's where we're coming up short.

Some solutions are easy to implement. Speaking from my own experience, Maemo Greeters was one. It was one suggested solution of many related to improving the new member and visitor experience here. It just required someone to start a thread, propose the idea to the community and facilitate the process. No overhead, no special rights required. Easy.

At the other end of the spectrum are the changes the require Nokia engagement and particularly some significant expense. Those *should* be fairly easy to get going assuming Nokia accepts the need and responsibility. There's been a mixed bag of success there but again, identification of the required resource is a large part of the battle and these should be black and white in that respect.

In between are the ones falling through the cracks, where it may not be easy/possible for the typical member to implement but maybe it doesn't fit the bill for Nokia, either. A good example was the request for meetup "swag", where community members are willing to do the graphics work but we lack funding to get products (tee shirts, caps, mugs, whatever) made. Requests like that get stuck in limbo and have resisted all efforts to be pried out...

Texrat

01-13-2010, 04:54 PM

I am going to request access to the Brainstorm database, and see if I can create a reporting solution for it...

EDIT: this one may be tougher than I thought. A dialog has been started, but getting the necessary access (for me) may be an issue.

slender

01-13-2010, 05:54 PM

benny1967,
Big thanks! I´m also having huge issues really understanding what and how brainstorm really benefits this community.

I have read some of brainstorms and voted couple of them but then what? It makes me happy to get "involved", but what really happens? I really need some kind of results to motivate to keep voting, suggesting and collaboration. Right now it feels like its place for people to brainstorm for sake of fun. I need results from extras developers or from Nokia. I want advertisements about different brainstorms running: Most voted, viewed, commented and also lowest etc. Best brainstorms which are taken consideration by Nokia. Brainstorms that have been implemented etc..

So comparison to bugzilla where you instantly see that there is some kind of reaction on side of nokia makes at least me push things harder. I try to make better bug report, i try to find solution, i want to test because of their reaction to my comment. Maybe there should be stars/prioritize numbers from Nokia on Brainstorm that are directly linked to official applications or maemo os. After 10 votes status changes to 'Under consideration' by whom? If i made brainstorm directly concerning maemo os is Nokia really taking my proposal under consideration after 10 votes?

Reason why i like to vote is that I see at least some feedback quickly and after while (couple of months?) end result Wontfix etc. or timetable for things to move on.

Bec

01-13-2010, 06:15 PM

So Bec-- wanna add "Brainstorm Champion" to your signature? :D
You know how things are with advertising :D

Anyway I want to emphasize again that we should focus on :eek:very obvious:eek: features, things that everybody can notice and make day to day life easier.

Those are the things people notice most and make them feel happy about their device and bring a constant flow of ideas.
In the end it's not touch-integration that makes a great device/OS, it's the integration with the users and the needs they might have.

As for brainstorm vs bugzilla,
Brainstorm is obviously more user friendly while bugzilla should be more oriented towards "nokia, we want that!"

Analytical judgment has to be required from the users as there are things like:
(just a basic example)"Headset button input reader" that nokia will never EVER care of.
In their misconception hacker/business devices are not multimedia-cute devices so who bother and bring decent headset support?
The best thing (IF) they would ever do, in this particular case, would be a nice custom headset - not cheap of course - or at least one of their newer ones.

Right now I think there's a bit of a mixup between things we as a community should accomplish for having the most relevant features and nokia's responsibility, to keep the device bug-free, focus on the global aspects of the device (eg responsive menus and UI) and of course deep hardware-software integration for things like MMS, videocall, voicedialing.

I think separating the tasks better community | nokia would be another good selection criterion.

Bec

01-13-2010, 06:21 PM

Reason why i like to vote is that I see at least some feedback quickly and after while (couple of months?) end result Wontfix etc. or timetable for things to move on.

We shouldn't move on as we don't have an input from enough users since they themselves don't know what would make using the N900 more comfortable.

I say even if they're (the brainstorms) not picked in a few months or so, let 'em rot, since maybe a (fresh) dev will someday find the request as being relevant for himself as well and make a nice surprise to a bunch of unsuspecting users :)

Let 'em rot but let 'em also be accessible;)

Flandry

01-13-2010, 07:53 PM

There were two main motivations in the creation of Brainstorm:

1. Bugzilla seen as a non-friendly tool for non-tech people that otherwise might have great ideas proposing and discussing new features. It's not that black & white but you know what I mean.

2. Separation between bugs and features seen as useful also for Nokia since the acceptance of bugs comes usually from developers while the acceptance of features comes usually from product managers. It's not that black & white but you know what I mean.

The Maemo product managers are eager to see a Brainstorm with great ideas, fruitful discussion and plenty of votes, showing the proposals worth prioritizing and considering first. But they suffer the very same problems reported by users since they are users themselves: slow server, difficulty to follow the activities, process not very polished, categories not very clear...

About the categories, I posted an alternative proposal but I got no feedback: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=33223

Thanks Quim, that second point is very helpful.

Ok, so you're saying that the division between brainstorm on the community/user side is by complexity and UI, and on the Maemo/Nokia side, it's role. Maybe that's part of the problem.

What about an interface between bugzilla and brainstorm the same way there is between either of those and Talk? All it would have to be is a link, the same way we do now. Rather than closing bugs, they would be marked as "Suspended pending deliberation" and the interested parties would then take it to Brainstorm. When some (established) consensus and plan is sufficiently voted on in Brainstorm, it would be a reopened as a valid entry in bugzilla.

That would avoid things falling through the cracks or being duplicated because of the differences in who's paying attention to what, and why.

Edit: Sorry, the lab was calling.

One of the most important parts of that would be to combine the votes between brainstorm and bugzilla. And... i had another important thought but it's gone. :/

chemist

01-13-2010, 08:13 PM

Please, keep in mind that the bugtracker also tracks all bugs and enhancements for community software too. (At least thats what it should do).

The discussion split out of bugtracker for "new" stuff happens to brainstorm, so do major enhancements but minor should just have a thread in software and grow to brainstorm if realy needed.

The linking allready happens as long as Andre (or someone else) recognize the discussion threads ;).

I now mark threads in brainstorm outdated (maybe you have a better word?!) if nothing happens anymore but we should not remove them.

The prefix makes it visible in which state a proposal is atm. (no colors I found yet sorry kathy). Maybe it needs a legend somewhere to tell what is what... and if we use timedelay for something... how long it takes till outdated and so on.

tousisd

01-15-2010, 08:16 AM

I am looking in this forum and as i can see there are so many threads about new ideas and suggestions about new applications or patches that in the end we will be confused! So then I suggest to make an official Queue Application List with priorities such as Low, normal and high or with a value of % like 4% if we want to be more specific so developers or owners of N900 vote to a patch or update or new application for its creation.
Personally I believe this will help us.

chemist

01-15-2010, 08:46 AM

1 post merged from brainstorm "[SUGGEST] Priority Queue Application List"

qgil

01-15-2010, 08:46 PM

Brainstorm is FAST now after the server move. At least server speed will be left hopefully out of the discussion.

Bec

01-16-2010, 03:21 AM

Excellent :D

I hope to see some more votes now considering we had almost 2000 online users.

chemist

01-16-2010, 10:26 AM

Flandry

01-16-2010, 10:39 AM

please keep the noise in this thread low as possible,
thanks Quim for the heads up.
As no serious posts dropped in since the move from community forum over here should it be moved back again?

BTT: What about to prevent normal users from starting threads in talk.brainstorm and make brainstorm start the threads itself with proper linking, including status update by itself in the thread's title?

That seems like the right way to do it. As with the rest of the forum integration, the questions are "who" and "when".

I've been observing (lots and lots of threads to sift through in here/there) and thinking about the brainstorm situation, and i think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people using it are just going to post their own pet brainstorm topic and then go on their merry way. I know this isn't going to be a popular suggestion, but i think that in order for brainstorm to be useful, some kind of quota and queue has to be established so that people will have to get behind and push so they can get their own time at the head of the line.

qgil

01-16-2010, 09:55 PM

What about to prevent normal users from starting threads in talk.brainstorm and make brainstorm start the threads itself with proper linking

That's the plan, in Reggie and Oskari backlogs.

Texrat

01-17-2010, 03:47 AM

Ok, talk about how Brainstorming is failing is scattered around here so I thought I'd see if we could discuss in this thread and reach some sort of consensus. Suffice to say I think I get where Quim is coming from but I'm still not sure it's a disaster and if it is, what we need to do to fix it.

So I'm going to construct a fictional scenario here to see if Quim and those thanking him can get the issues through my thick skull. The scenario will have nothing to do with Maemo so we can avoid getting caught up in some of the real proposals here. I will intentionally add solutions that may seem silly since we really get those. ;)

Proposal:

Randy's house is old and could use many improvements

Solution 1: Randy should replace all of his windows with new ones
Solution 2: Randy should better insulate his attic
Solution 3: Randy should replace his antique air conditioning system
Solution 4: Randy should abandon the house and get an apartment
Solution 5: Randy should accidentally drop a match and collect insurance after the damn thing burns to the ground
Solution 6: Randy should sell the house as-is and try his luck on the depressed housing market
Solution 7: Randy should take out a loan for life, hire an expert and let them have at it
Solution 8: Randy should only insulate critical areas of the attic AND replace over-exposed windows for now

See how the proposal is at a very high level and can be attacked in many ways?

Now, some of these solutions are mutually-exclusive based on type and scope... but most are mutually exclusive based on resources (time, funds, help, etc). Some do not relate directly to the proposal (4, 5, 6) at all but are in fact alternatives. I see these as issues facing current Brainstorms.

So here's what I suggest: let the proposal creator manage this. Give them the ability to deprecate solutions, even popular ones, if he/she feels there's a conflict of any sort. Let them mark alternatives as Inappropriate (for no action) OR change the nature of the original proposal IF he/she feels the solution provider has introduced something not originally considered but highly useful.

Let proposal creators take ownership. Let them have the ability to edit and/or combine solutions. Let them manage their portion of the process. Let them prune, weed, nurture, whatever it takes to move the process forward.

Granted, this could cause some ill will... but, so can inaction (which we have now). Ultimately, I'd like to see proposal creators collaborate with solution contributors and start shaping the "mess".

I'd also like to have those of us participating in moderation have some sort of offline dialog so we can get on the same page. Starting soon.

I'm just... brainstorming here though. I'm starting to think I'm at odds with the general idea here based on responses to recent comments so maybe I should just shut up and let everyone else sort it out...

qgil

01-17-2010, 07:00 AM

I think at the end it goes down to a very pragmatical reason: specific brainstorm proposals are easier to address just like specific bug reports are easier to address.

I just rated a proposal in Sandbox with a thumbs down just trying to avoid that it leaves Sandbox: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=477790&postcount=20 I think this could be a policy and we should address the current proposals that are Under Consideration.

Texrat

01-17-2010, 07:17 AM

Ok... then we need to figure out the cleanup process...

Bec

01-17-2010, 07:17 AM

Well in the end it comes to specific solutions too, those that have the most votes.

qgil

01-17-2010, 07:32 AM

Texrat

01-17-2010, 08:49 AM

Well in the end it comes to specific solutions too, those that have the most votes.

I'm confused by that statement.

Texrat

01-17-2010, 08:56 AM

Think about the workflow we have.

http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/ovi_maps_improvement_suggestions/ is in the top of the Hot list so I put it in my priorities. It turns out that "navigation" is the hottest feature from the long list, since the two most rated solutions are related to it.

Imagine that a third party application shows up in Ovi doing just that: turn by turn navigation with voice guidance. This is a solution that even doesn't show up there, even if it would be an obvious alternative solution for a brainstorm naved e.g. "Can't use the N900 as a GPS navigator". Let's imagine that I create that solution myself only to be able to move forward in the workflow. And then resolve the brainstorm as Implemented, choosing that solution I just created.

What happens with the 19 remaining solutions that have nothing to do with Navigation?

I'm confused by that, too.

Look, all I've been trying to convey is that we're just picking one poison over another. The current system can't properly manage Brainstorms so there's huge potential for human error. No matter what, we are utterly dependent on people to do the right thing-- be they proposal creators, solution providers, moderators, whatever.

Again: I'm still looking for an answer as to what the workflow should actually be. I see a lot of complaints about how I had (mistakenly) thought it was... but no definitive description of how everyone thinks it should be.

I'm going to bow out of this and let everyone else solve it. I'll go along with whatever is decided because frankly, my head is spinning from the discussion.

Bec

01-17-2010, 08:57 AM

Proposal:
Let's summarize the solutions, make a TOP 3 and give the users a chance to see the others via a "see more link".
Brainstorms like calendar improvement(has a ton of "1 vote" solutions) that fail to have 3 top solutions (=with more votes than the others) within a week should be somehow downgraded.

It was in the context of keeping the brainstorms a little cleaner and organize the flow of ideas.
I see the tendency of people posting chunks of ideas in brainstorm. They have an idea, fail do develop it and simply drop it in brainstorm as a solution.

qgil

01-17-2010, 09:23 AM

I just don't understand why no one said anything until now, after my instructions have been up (and wrong) for months.

As for me, I already raised comments against meta-brainstorms like portrait mode and Maps 1-2 months ago. Sorry if I didn't hit one of your proposals before, just being busy and then on holidays. The fact that we got a fast server for Brainstorm only 2 days ago also helped not finding extra time to spend waiting for pages to download.

If you notice I'm doing all this in my weekend, so still as part of pure hobby since I don't have much time to get into Brainstorm battles. But I think this is important and the drop was brought by the fact that 4 out of 10 hottest proposals at http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/ were of this kind and more are quickly growing (Application Manager, Calendar...)

qgil

01-17-2010, 09:41 AM

All this is less of a problem if solutions could be moved under other existing or new proposals. If moderators could do this then everything would be more flexible and no solutions/ratings would be lost because of the process. Now it's not possible or at least not evident, but being all database items it should be relatively simple to fix.

Bug opened: Can't move solutions to other brainstorm proposals (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8153)

Bec

01-17-2010, 09:53 AM

One more thing about the "chunks of ideas", maybe we should also limit the number of solutions a user can post?

There are some very prolific users that keep adding a new post for every word that comes in their mind, instead of editing an older post that is on the same wave length...

I haven't yet seen 2 ideas in one brainstorm form the same poster that are so different from each other that they can't be expressed in the same solution.
As for users that have more than one idea on how to implement a specific function, NO! Weigh their ups and downs and post the most relevant one - before coming to brainstorm, know exactly what you want.

My brainstorming about keeping brainstorm brainy is now complete ;)

qgil

01-17-2010, 10:09 AM

As for users that have more than one idea on how to implement a specific function, NO! Weigh their ups and downs and post the most relevant one - before coming to brainstorm, know exactly what you want

Meh, it happens quite often that when you are brainstorming you have more than one idea you want to share for others to evaluate. It happens to me quite often in real life that I have my preferred option, then I also comment than an alternative would be possible... then the rest are convinced about the alternative. :)

This is different than lazy users posting new solutions instead of editing their current ones to improve them, yes. Then again this is not much of a big problem since Brainstorm allows you to select more than one solution.

It only becomes a hassle when you have more than a dozen of solutions already and then a new one comes adding just too little. But not even that is a real hassle in focused brainstorms with only a few solutions listed.

Bec

01-17-2010, 10:21 AM

But not even that is a real hassle in focused brainstorms with only a few solutions listed.

Yup but we also have long brainstorms that can simply get annoying when you see that the same individual keeps adding little bits in new posts.

There's always more ways to solving a problem but one way for one user should suffice and help brainstorms be a little more tidy.

Then there's another disturbing thing in nokia maps...
Keep navigation free and get $ via advertising????
Like how, show me pepsi commercials on half the screen when I'm driving? no thanks.
I know most users would like that but I don't see how that improves the service.
There should be rule from preventing requests like "can't we have this for free".

chemist

01-17-2010, 12:12 PM

What happens with the 19 remaining solutions that have nothing to do with Navigation?

I second this thought, being able to extract a single solution from those "enhance them all" proposals would be strike against loosing good ideas! Opening new proposals with the "hot" solutions for one topic as digest of those "enhance them all" items. (may call it "move to new proposal allready [Under consideration]"-process)

People try to merge topics to one as they have dependencies, having them not merged but creating dependencies and proper linking like "this bug depends on bugXXXX" would be another feature I like. so workflow could be - split "enhance them all" items into topics but show dependencies and keep the 'enhance them all' items to show what is already proposed and where to find. Structuring in categories maybe? Not like forum categories, more like a 'mother' proposal with 'children'.

RevdKathy

01-17-2010, 01:00 PM

chemist

01-17-2010, 03:55 PM

you are just right, intention was not to split out the ideas taken for development and keep the related, it was split out the ideas taken plus the related but leave the unrelated still active.

For example, you got an "enhance phone-app" proposal that got everything in it from answering to recording calls and so on.

You split out the whole solutions (brainstormed solutions) created for "recording calls" and put it into a new but allready [In development] item showing what was picked for development and what was not. Still linked from the mother item so people know that it is there and work in progress.

The "enhance phone-app" item now shows everything but recording features (they are linked now) and is still active as [Under consideration] for the remains.

Bec

01-17-2010, 04:04 PM

Why not simply "pick" the logical implement-worth and voted solutions for processing and reset the brainstorm? change the name too if it's necesary...

Texrat

01-17-2010, 06:27 PM

I'm not sure I have the same understanding of 'brainstorm'. In my experience a brainstorm does tend to be something wild and woolly that generates a shower of ideas. After the 'brainstorm' bit has finished, you start that hard process of picking over the ideas to assess them for feasibility, resources and what methods are appropriate. At that stage, some of the ideas will get left behind, because they're not feasible, need unavailable resources or simply don't fit into the method adopted for the overall process. I don't think I've ever been in a brainstorm event that didn't end up leaving some ideas in a puddle on the floor for one of these reasons. If they were particularly good ideas, they generally get picked up again in another process. If you want to create a procedure for ensuring that good ideas that don't fit one process don't get forgotten entirely, that would be excellent.

But the feeling I get from this discussion is that you want to start the process further down the process, after the actual 'storm' has finished, so that you can concentrate on the feasibilty, method and resources aspect.

If that's what you want, fine - but I'm not sure you should call it 'brainstorm'?

Bingo, thank you Kathy!

You just nailed the root of my continued confusion.

IMO Individual solutions need a way of being escalated independent of the proposal or other solutions. The proposal, being a parent object, would be in an Open state until all child objects were resolved one way or another.

That's what I had thought we were going to with the last work done on the Brainstorm system. Guess I misunderstood. But IMO that's the way to do this: allow child objects to have independent states and lifecycles.

Either than, or we're going to have to go to one proposal, one solution-- and that introduces its own set of problems.

Bottom line, this needs to be treated as a true workflow/project management process. Right now it seems to be in some sort of quasi state that's not viable.

Texrat

01-17-2010, 11:57 PM

After Kathy confirmed my understanding of what an actual Brainstorm process is supposed to be, I did a little more thinking about this. I have a suggestion:

- Start Brainstorms here, instead of at the formal Brainstorm site (Forming stage).

- Foster discussion here (ie, true brainstorming) before even creating a formal proposal.

- At some point, the proposal creator and/or moderator(s) declare the Storming portion over and begin the Norming process (creating the formal proposal, adding solutions)

- Voting is opened to the community along with further discussion

- Voting is cutoff at some point and prioritizing done for action (Performing)

At the moment I don't know how to define cutoff points... number of posts? Time elapsed? Consensus? Lack of steam? Not sure. But I think something like this better matches real life brainstorming and manages the process better given the lack of proper structure and dual "homes" of the system tools...

Flandry

01-18-2010, 12:28 AM

That's fine in theory but how do we prevent it from becoming utter chaos if we aren't imposing some kind of higher order on the threads here than in the rest of Talk?

I still think we need some kind of limit or quota to focus efforts enough to actually make headway.

Texrat

01-18-2010, 01:17 AM

We have chaos now. I realize what I am suggesting may not diminish it, but if we found a way to make cutoffs work, it should make the chaos more manageable. I think.

RevdKathy

01-18-2010, 04:20 AM

*Mumble mumble - this is just random reflections while I reflect them - not fully thought through yet...*

We seem to be missing the element of responsibility. Who is responsible for seeing a project through? Right now, Brainstorm is a place and a process where anyone with a good idea can throw it out there and see if anyone else is interested (which is good) but they don't have any responsibility for what happens next (which I think is maybe not good). This is especially noticeable when the ideas are coming from people who lack the skills to enact them.

Right now, I have two 'pet projects' as I would see them: I don't actually have the skills to make them happen - but I do see it as part of my responsibility to see them through and keep them happening, find skilled people, co-ordinate, encourage, enthuse, test, etc. To me, that's what I can put in (in the absence of any actual ability), and a responsibility I take on when I launch the idea. It's one of the main reasons I didn't start a Brainstorm till this weekend: I wasn't in a space for the responsibility. In addition, it will be up to me in my head when I feel that they've gone about as far as I can take them - if other people pick them up and run, that's fine - this isn't meant to be exclusive in any way. I won't stop till I feel I've completed the process - even if the end is some project equivalent of WONTFIX.

My feeling is that we have lots of people who think generating ideas and asking for stuff/features/apps is all they need to do and then it's someone else's problem. Can we somehow encourage people to take responsibility for their projects?

jjx

01-18-2010, 05:43 AM

My feeling is that we have lots of people who think generating ideas and asking for stuff/features/apps is all they need to do and then it's someone else's problem. Can we somehow encourage people to take responsibility for their projects?

When it comes to things where the implementation comes down to "would Nokia please consider implementing xxx", either becuase it's a closed component or it's basically driven by Nokia staff, I'm not sure how to take responsibility for it as an outsider after the ideas stage.

I've avoided much with Brainstorms so far because I feel like some have said, that it could be a /dev/null where ideas go to die.

And also because my ideas so far have tended to be "the following 30 little UI tweaks would make it that much better" and I get the impression I am supposed to create 30 separate brainstorms? That seems way too likely to get bogged down in non-productive committee-itis ("little tweaks") and unlikely to achieve coherent results anyway.

Some of my instincts at the moment tell me I should fork Fremantle to make a personal version, and just patch a few things to see if I like my UI tweaks after all, and if so make them available to others as patched packages. That may be a more direct route than slow, scattered exchanges on t.m.o.

I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not, and I'm sure it isn't that easy, but it seems more useful than /dev/null. Especially with the uncertainty about whether discussed changes will make their way to the N900 anyway, or only to future Maemo6 devices which I may not want to buy (due to the DRM or other factors).

Flandry

01-18-2010, 08:20 AM

My feeling is that we have lots of people who think generating ideas and asking for stuff/features/apps is all they need to do and then it's someone else's problem. Can we somehow encourage people to take responsibility for their projects?

Thanks Kathy, that's the more direct way of asking what i was trying to verbalize. The only way to make brainstorm work is to make it a mechanism for project delegation; to require either the original proposer (your direct approach) or somebody who's just interested in pushing things along because there is a clearly delineated queue and they either are interested in helping and it's clear enough where to put their efforts, or they have their own pet proposal in the wings and know that the best way to get it to the front is by moving the line along. People need and want to see progress and results and the current fragmentation hides any of that and disenfranchises most would-be participants.

While in theory i like your direct approach better, i haven't been able to come up with a way to implement it, which is why i proposed a less direct but tractable approach (a queue or quota).

One way to meet in the middle is to have a group of Brainstorm Executors who are the only ones empowered to actually admit new proposals. Each could adopt some small number of proposals at a time and not take a new one from the pool until one of their batch was resolved. Perhaps they could increase the size of their batch as they demonstrate success at completing the ones given to their charge, thus integrating a feedback mechanism of sorts.

Bec

01-18-2010, 08:37 AM

I agree, but I also think that what we have now is more of a brain tornado than a storm. As I previously suggested, some measures should be taken to condense the ideas of a single user rather than allowing him to chaotically post countless bits and pieces across multiple solutions.

I think this could be easily implemented via the brainstorm faq.

Texrat

01-18-2010, 10:43 AM

And also because my ideas so far have tended to be "the following 30 little UI tweaks would make it that much better" and I get the impression I am supposed to create 30 separate brainstorms? That seems way too likely to get bogged down in non-productive committee-itis ("little tweaks") and unlikely to achieve coherent results anyway.

Precisely my concern if proposals are allowed to be too granular. High level proposal/various level scoped solutions is the way to do this IMO.

Helmuth

01-18-2010, 11:09 AM

I don't like the Idea to only allow one Solution per User and Brainstorm. Some people have more skills on kreativity and UI desing than other or they are themself not sure which solution could be the best and want a decision from the community.

Just a example: I've added myself 2 Days ago a Brainstorm with 4 own solutions. I hope there could be more in the future. In my opinion they are totally different. And I don't know myself which could be the best solution. I hope the Brainstorm process could give a good answer for this.
You can judge yourself here (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/actions_when_device_is_locked_and_a_event_like_ale art-alarm_or_call_happens). They are different. Could you agree?

It sounds like the idea to build a cave to keep the Brainstorm system running. But the Problem are not 5 Ideas from one person. If a Idea is only spam a Moderator could delete it and ban the user. Then everything is fine. The real problem is the actual system isn't working!

I think a own workflow for every (more than 66% positiv voted) Brainstorm "Solution" could be a huge improvement.
Something like this options for every Idea:

"MOVED TO OTHER BRAINSTORM"
"DECISION PENDING"
"IMPLEMENTED IN 2.2010.05-1"
"TARGET Harmattan"
"WONTFIX (because of)"

With this we wouldn't have the problem: "Whats with the other 19 proposals when the first is implemented?" - it should be handled on "Solution"-Level, not on "Brainstorm"-Level.

Think of the initial post of a Brainstorm only as a Headline. It's the abstract of a problem. Perhaps lets have 2 kind of Brainstorms.
"Brainstorming" (for Calendar and maps improvement) and "Solution search" (for detailed discussion for a Idea from a Brainstorm)

Don't forget. The Community is fast growing, and the new N900 is not perfect. The people still missing many things on their new toy. This is the reason for the tornado instead of the brainstorm. ;)

Bug opened: Can't move solutions to other brainstorm proposals (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8153)

Mmh, I guess this could be marked as "Moved". It sounds like a enhancement request. "The scope of bugs are..."
Please add a Brainstorm! :D (sorry, just kidding, seen to often in the past 4 weeks for such kind of requests)

But in my opinion the problem of "spam" is selfmade. The users have a problem, they post it to bugs.maemo.org, then the answer is create a Brainstorm because there are to much undetailed bug reports. Now they are all creating Brainstorms. What could be a good solution? Where have they now to move? ;)

2 more things I'm missing:

When I change my decision after voted for a Solution and there is a new, better Solution a couple of weeks later. I should be able to change my decision and delete my own vote to appreciate the new, in my opinion, better solution.

The Original Poster of a Brainstorm should have the potential to change the headline himself. (not important, but in my opinion a Brainstorm could change his direction during the discussion)

EDIT:
Precisely my concern if proposals are allowed to be too granular. High level proposal/various level solutions is the way to do this IMO.
Thanks Texrat. I guess I was not fast enough writing my toughts down. But how many level could we need? I got the Idea of 2 Levels. But could this be enough?

Texrat

01-18-2010, 12:22 PM

Helmuth, WELL put! I think you would make a great moderator for the actual Brainstorm site. ;)
The only quibble I really have is with the term "wontfix". That tends to be a psychological hot button. I'd rather see less hostile resolutions like "CAN'T do" or "no need (and here's why: ___)", etc.

As for levels... I want to make sure I'm clear on what you're asking. Do you mean proposal/solution, or 2 levels for solutions? Maybe "levels" was the wrong word for me to use for solutions... "scope" might be better.

Helmuth

01-18-2010, 12:27 PM

Dont forget, some solutions could be a blocker for a other solution. (not only within a single brainstorm) There should be a posibility to illustrate such a system of dependencies.

Perhaps only the posibility to add Links to other solutions in different fields without a comment.

Blocks this
is blocker of this
this is needed before

So when a developer looks at a Solution it should be easy to find at Brainstorm what affects else.
Sometimes there could only be ONE of a couple of solutions.

Texrat

01-18-2010, 12:29 PM

Oh Helmuth... what you are describing would be ideal. I wonder if there's a resource who could implement this fairly quickly...

That also leads me to think Solutions should have their own comments at the actual Brainstorm. I don't know that having them here is the best way.

Helmuth

01-18-2010, 12:57 PM

Ouh, you are again to fast for me. I answer you two posts in a single one. :)

The only quibble I really have is with the term "wontfix". That tends to be a psychological hot button. I'd rather see less hostile resolutions like "CAN'T do" or "no need (and here's why: ___)", etc.

Yes, you're right. But we've got this psychological hot button also at bugs. So it looks more identical. ;) But you're right. It was only a example. I don't like the WONTFIX there also. It's a hard decision. If this could become a canidate to implement it in the system, I'm sure, there is more time used to think about. :)

As for levels... I want to make sure I'm clear on what you're asking. Do you mean proposal/solution, or 2 levels for solutions? Maybe "levels" was the wrong word for me to use for solutions... "scope" might be better.

Mmh, yes. I'm sorry. I'm not a native speaker. I mean this:
Perhaps lets have 2 kind of Brainstorms.
"Brainstorming" (for Calendar and maps improvement) and "Solution search" (for detailed discussion for a Idea from a Brainstorm)
But I'm not sure. Could this really be a good Idea?

Oh Helmuth... what you are describing would be ideal. I wonder if there's a resource who could implement this fairly quickly...

That also leads me to think Solutions should have their own comments at the actual Brainstorm. I don't know that having them here is the best way.

Yes, so the informations are spread all over the Site. Not a good solution. But the Brainstorm is not a forum. And a discussion on solution level is sometimes also not helpful. Which Solution is the best? Where would you discuss this? ;)

In my opinion it should only be possible to add comments from Moderators, Developers and NOKIA staff. Short things like: "We have a internal meeting on Friday to discuss this.", "To expensive to implement." or "We're working on it." - More official comments and feedback. :)

chemist

01-18-2010, 01:02 PM

You miss out that at a "per solution" based system you dismiss the other solutions for the same issue.

Why make it more complicated? Texrat, the dependencies tree was a request a while ago...

For universal brainstorms like "enhance the phone-app" it could be:
Moderators should be able to group solutions attached to a problem and developers should be able to pick those groups to create a child-storm, telling which solutions they pick and which dependencies they create or fulfill. Also an option to put a solution back to the mothers stack should be given.
Sounds easy... and will work for any proposal

Helmuth's post sounds good to me but it is about a brainstorm that contains solutions which could all come true only (bit harsh but it feels like a oneway). Like my constellation proposal; now one guy ports "stellarium", one day someone could port "cyclo astro" as they are just two different use-cases but its gone for then because the brainstorm will be archived as implemented some day soon. Only for those cases helmuth's ideas are very good. But what we need is a system working easy and for all cases. Split move and so on... are missing for me the one point of where did it come from and where will it go.

Kathy, I will have a 2 days internal annual workshop quiet soon and will have a look onto those mindmaps and brainstorms made over the last years, maybe I will learn from processes made how to propose new ones that they better fit.

If the answer is not what you like to here... change the question.

Brainstorm needs to be an easy to use, understandable for a 6year old and easy to manage process.

Most of the proposers are likely not able to read sticky threads in a forum so please think of them as a 6year old. They drop their problem and think its done with it. It has to be easy like that; however, we need those people to check back for their proposals.

Texrat

01-18-2010, 01:08 PM

Here's the thing chemist: there is an inverse relationship between solution complexity and interface usability. Pack enough power under the hood, and the interface can be deceptively simple. Fail to do that, and you wind up with huge complexities-- not all visible in the interface. This very discussion is a consequence of unnecessary complexity caused by solution deficiencies. ;)

I think Helmuth is on the right track. I think there are two main things killing us here:

- difficulty/impossibility to manage the solutions the way they need to be managed (addressed in many points here)

- impossibility to assign solution ownerships in a project/task manner

Fixing those potentially fixes a great many things.

Helmuth's post sounds good to me but it is about a brainstorm that contains solutions which could all come true only

I don't see that...?

Helmuth

01-18-2010, 01:46 PM

You miss out that at a "per solution" based system you dismiss the other solutions for the same issue.

[...]

Helmuth's post sounds good to me but it is about a brainstorm that contains solutions which could all come true only (bit harsh but it feels like a oneway).

So it was not meant.

The benefit of a solution based system is that every idea is handled itself and no one is missed. And it does not only work with solutions which could all come true.
It should be easy to reject a solution because of "other solution for this problem got more votes" or "easier solution taken / to expensive".

This could also based on a automatic system. Only "Solutions" with more than 10 Votes and 66% positive of them could get in the proposal workflow. The other ones are rejected automatically. (by vote of the community)

When a Brainstorm is finished in real life. You have always to made the decitions on a Solution level. So the Brainstorm system and the workflow should work the same way.

The old question. One Brainstorm, 19 Solutions. The first, popular solution is implemented. So the Brainstorm reached the target? What about the other 18 solutions?

With this system it shouldn't be a problem to decide: "We would implement Solution #1, #3 and #8."
The rest of it are overlapping, blocking with one of the implemented, to expensive or some of them are still good ideas for the future.
I'm sure. It's going this way at the moment. But no one could see it at the current Brainstorm in a clear way.

To make it easier for everybody:
Call it Idea instead of Solution. Call it only a solution when the implementation is on scedule. :)

Texrat

01-18-2010, 01:51 PM

[...]
To make it easier for everybody:
Call it Idea instead of Solution. Call it only a solution when the implementation is on scedule. :)

Beautiful. Sounds like semantics but as simple as it seems, semantics can trip up the best of processes.

Again, this supports the concept of solutions (or ideas) have semi-independent lifecycles.

We need to think of the model as project/task, and ask at each step: how would a project manager (or management tool) handle this?

Texrat

01-18-2010, 02:04 PM

Ack-- I really am dense. A picture just popped into my mind of how this should look, especially with regards to my own misunderstandings. I'll try to draw it up and post tonight.

RevdKathy

01-18-2010, 02:20 PM

[...]
To make it easier for everybody:
Call it Idea instead of Solution. Call it only a solution when the implementation is on scedule. :)

I like it!

The way I was thinking was around the item I opened at the weekend:

The aim is 'improve the calendar'
The suggestions that follow are proximate objectives.

When the idea-shower stops (and we start getting fewer/no more suggestions) we move to methods/feasibility/resources. At that point someone has to take responsibility for moving on from generating ideas to finding solutions. In this case I can think of at least three methods, the choice from which which would depend on available resources. Which of the suggestions is feasible is going to depend on the method, which is in turn dependent on resources. (I'm not a coder, I have only those resources I can cajole from others).

The end result of the exploring, analysing and solving is that the community may produce a patch for the existing calendar, incorporating as many of the suggestions as is feasible. Or we may decide to create/enhance a second stand-alone calendar (One has already been suggested) so that it can be seamlessly integrated to Maemo5. Either way, we will have 'improved the calendar experience' even if certain individual objectives are not met.

In the worst case it will be found that the only method open is to persuade the clever people a Nokia to do this, in which case I shall brovrilise the suggestions down to a set of individual UI bugs, and submit them as such (and Andre will hunt me down with a shotgun). I will still have done my best to 'improve the calendar'.

That's why I like starting the process at the top with a woolly aim, then setting objectives, then looking at the methods/feasibility/resources. If you start at the lower level of objectives, you miss a great deal of creativity, and generate a sense of 'we opened all these ideas and got nowhere'.

The trick is to have someone pushing at the right points. Whether that's the task of the Brainstorm mods or the aim-starter is debatable: I think it should fall to the starter, because I think people can follow through on a good idea even if (like me) they have little idea how they're going to do it.

Texrat

01-18-2010, 03:20 PM

I think Kathy and I are sharing a brain. :D

The thing with TRUE brainstorming is that "no idea is a bad idea". We need to make that a religion.

I've done this in real life many times and not once did we ever start off hyperfocused. That came during the Norming stage.

True brainstorming means that not only can wild ideas irrelevant to the core topic pop up, they should. That's actually a hallmark of a receptive, empowered and creative group. It is up the the brainstorm facilitator(s) to make sure those potentially-orphaned ideas get grafted onto the appropriate tree or branch (depending on granularity) later.

The challenge, of course, is to make that work here. To help:

- identify a Brainstorm champion overall (is that Quim? should it be?)
- enable Brainstorm moderators to work both sides of the fence (I can't)
- draw up a model (I will start that)

EDIT: it also occurred to me that we should distinguish somehow between ideas that apply to current conditions vs those meant for future platforms, etc.

Jaffa

01-18-2010, 06:57 PM

Perhaps only the posibility to add Links to other solutions in different fields without a comment.

Blocks this
is blocker of this
this is needed before

Short-circuiting the current brainstorming activity (since it seems to be converging on a consensus); the politics and technicalities of whether to change the Brainstorm Midgard module into more of a bug-tracker or whether to change a bug-tracker into more of a brainstorm and project management soluition will need to be looked at.

This also fits in, to a large extent, with Stskeeps' suggestion of a methodology for community development:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=41092

Helmuth

01-18-2010, 07:37 PM

Ah, nice. Havent noticed about it before. Thank you.

So, naivly spoken there could be in the future a bug tracker, a Brainstorm system and a project management system?

COOL! :cool:

Parallel developed with a lot of energy and overlapping in some points? :)

For each system other persons responsible or the same guys?

I hope everybody would understand what I'm trying to say. We dont need 3 totally different systems. We need in the best case one big solution.

The Project Management should be a system after brainstorming. And the bugs should be a system to send something back to the project management system afther something developed has leaved the project management. One system have to work with the other. Integrated or with some kind of interfaces from one system to the other. But it should look and feel like one big system. Not totally different like Brainstorm and Bugs at the moment.

Texrat

01-18-2010, 08:36 PM

The Project Management should be a system after brainstorming.

After but connected.

Man... it seems we may be growing up. ;)

chemist

01-23-2010, 09:23 AM

This thread has moved in a direction where afaik we are allready heading. => Integrated System - Bugtracker functions for dependencies and so on...

But what could we do for now to make this a better place? Access for the mods to brainstorm to have a hand there and make this subforum thread moderated would be my technical start. For a visible start I'd like to delete as many posts and merge as many posts as possible to get the discussions down to relevant stuff, maybe split out hijacking posts to new threads in the other fora or something alike would be handy too.

What do you think?

Texrat

01-26-2010, 12:40 AM

chemist I wish I had a general answer.

For me, I'm going to quit starting Brainstorms until I have a better idea of how it should work now and/or we have a better implementation of the tool & process. I'll do what I can to moderate in the meantime but I have to confess, I still am very fuzzy on how and what I should be doing...

qgil

01-26-2010, 08:57 AM

Concrete things that could be done:

- Remove the irrelevant stickies in this forum and clean the ones staying.

- Review, polish and complete http://wiki.maemo.org/Brainstorm if you think it's not clear enough.

- Agree on a policy for "meta-brainstorms". I have a concrete problem with the Ovi Maps improvements brainstorm: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=495386#post495386

- Prioritize the Brainstorm bugs (https://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&classification=Websites&product=maemo.org+Website&component=Brainstorm&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=) and chase Oskari to fix the ones blocking us now.

There is always a way to make the tools work at your will. The problem we have now is not only because the tools don't do exactly what we want, but because we don't have one single opinion about the process and the tools to make it work.

It can be solved!

chemist

01-26-2010, 10:18 AM

as long as we do not have the powers to move stuff around in brainstorm there will remain some of our problems, if stuff does not happen automagickly we need the possibility to do it by hand, at least. Voted at bugs...
Cleaned "Brainstorm News" (moved posts to new thread in Archive:News) and closed the thread, only mods are able to post there. What about http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=33222 the "ask your questions here" sticky, should it be closed and moved to archives? Clean up and start from new?

For now I just delete entries not related and not useful for anyone from any thread. "Reason: noise", should I move them instead? is there a /dev/null? they still show up for moderators as "deleted" and might be moved to some dark place...

Helmuth

01-26-2010, 11:27 AM

- Agree on a policy for "meta-brainstorms". I have a concrete problem with the Ovi Maps improvements brainstorm: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=495386#post495386

You wrote in this post:

I want to comment officially on it, since there was an official announcement last week about Nokia Maps offering free navigation. However, if I move the brainstorm to Under Development selecting that solution at the same time the other 22 proposals will be carried away with the move.

In my opinion the biggest problem on the actually Brainstorm system is, the users understood the Brainstorming process different than the developers.

They understood a Brainstorm only as a Group of Ideas. Not a Idea and possible Solutions for this single one.

In my Posts #54 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=480057&postcount=54) and #61 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=480300&postcount=61) here in this tread I tryed to figure out how the system should work.
The Point: When you're finishing a Brainstorm in real life. You have always to made the decitions on a Idea (Solution) level. So the Brainstorm system and the workflow should work the same way.

So, when you're moving this OVI Maps meta brainstorm to under development you should decide on a solution level. Take every single solution and mark them as "under development", "rejected (because of)", "waiting (later to decide)", "blocking of #2" or something else.
I know, the Brainstorm system doesn't work this way at the moment. But in my opinion it should work like a fast Brainstorming in real life. Spit out a lot of Ideas. And at the end, take them all and look at it: "what should we keep and what's waste?" - And we should handle it this way, too.

A fast workaround for now could be the possibility for the moderators to split Brainstorms in several small Brainstorms and move the Solutions from one to a another Brainstorm with all Votes. (Moderators: Dont forget! There should be a Link in the old Brainstorm, redirecting the users to the new location!)

But, in my opinion this isn't a solution. What will we have in the end?
Millions of small Brainstorms, without any context to each other and on every single Brainstorm only the Solutions: "Nokia should do it", "The Community can do it", "We don't need it". An the Brainstorm itself is only: "Put the Button on the left instead of the right."

What do you think? Texrat commented this very positive. But I guess you're opinion is on this Topic essential. And there was no feedback from you. :)

Could a solutions based handling solve your problem with such large, out of control mass meta Brainstorms?

Can we handle it currently this way when you move it to "under development", block the posibility to edit it by the users and add the Comments / Decisions by the Developers in Bold to the Solutions which one is how handled?

We need a good workaround until we have a better working Brainstorm system. :)

qgil

01-26-2010, 11:44 AM

I think I wrote somewhere that in my opinion brainstorms must be precise in order to be operative, more or less like bug reports. One brainstorm for one feature.

You say this ends up in thousands of brainstorms. I don't have a problem with this as long as those thousands of brainstorm have concrete solutions and focused discussions. There are ways to search what is interesting to you or to me.

By using meta brainstorms we end up with massive collections of mixed solutions and threads with hundreds of posts. Not much improvement compared to regular forum threads, if you ask me.

One of the reasons to defend meta-brainstorms is that they are the "real" brainstorms with a topic open and the possibility to list and vote just any idea. In my opinion such creative entropy is already provided by this forum. the evaluation of interest is also measured by the fact that plenty ideas jjst come and go, while others come back, persist, evetually get a focused discussion and someone willing to push them and get some tangible result out of them.

The brainstorm tool was not thought for meta-bugs. Now we have most of the top positions taken by the 6 more popular apps. The lack of a "Browser improvements" metabrainstorm can be probably interpreted as a proof that users are really happy with it. :) And we start having weird problems with duplicated. For instance: what to do with the solutions about Calendar-Contacts integration that can be found in a metabrainstorm and a specific brainstorm?

Having meta-brainstorms is probably an indirect way to stop the creation of specific brainstorms in that area since they might look like duplicates of sorts.

Texrat

01-26-2010, 11:56 AM

Flandry

01-26-2010, 12:16 PM

Quim is making a lot of sense here. We only complicate our lives by trying to make a task-oriented tool like brainstorm into a freesketch notepad. Computers and databases excel at ordering and tracking and sorting a multitude of well-defined entries, but not so much when the structure of the entries is arbitrary.

I'm in favor of using a scalpel here. Keep brainstorms about a single problem, with a number of equally focused solutions. That has the added benefit of requiring the creator of the entry to clearly define the problem so that the whole process will proceed more smoothly.

I wouldn't worry about losing solutions. The good thing about solutions in our Brainstorm is that the owner of the solution will take care of it: he'll be an advocate of the solution wherever it is useful.

Texrat

01-26-2010, 12:31 PM

At the risk of being pedantic: the discussion is moving the tool away from true brainstorming. If brainstorming-to-solutions is not our actual goal, then changing the name would clarify the purpose.

Oh, and I sure hope no one thinks I was in any way advocating a "free sketch notepad". Quite the opposite at the solution side.

Flandry

01-26-2010, 12:32 PM

I'm not attached to the name. t.m.o is a brainstorm, so we can call what bubbles up into the "Brainstorm" tool whatever you like.

I think we need to be careful not to lose track of the goal. Are we trying to provide a tool to propose and manage and direct improvements as a community? Or a way to discuss them? We've got the latter in t.m.o. We need an effective former.

Texrat

01-26-2010, 12:39 PM

I'm convinced we're doing it wrong altogether. As I proposed before: use THIS subforum as the noisy Brainstorm portion, where proposals/ideas/solutions are kicked around until something useful emerges. THEN ferry that result over to the actual Brainstorm tool.

tmo subforum: Forming/Storming
Brainstorm tool: Norming/Performing

Flandry

01-26-2010, 12:52 PM

I've lost track of why we're doing it the way we're doing it, and what we were doing before, but that sounds ok. Just as long as what goes into the Brainstorm tool is incisively defined and focused... i have my doubts that can happen without requiring a "dress rehearsal" in the subforum (and iirc that's why we're doing it the way we are now). The problem is that things are largely out of our hands once people take it to the Brainstorm tool. When i think about solutions i always come back to the need for "Brainstorm champions" that actually make and maintain the proposals to maintain some degree of order in the tool.

Texrat

01-26-2010, 12:53 PM

Wholly agreed.

qgil

01-26-2010, 03:10 PM

It's often hard to have a problem with something that hasn't happened yet, Quim. ;)

I am very certain that soon after we move to a one-to-one model, that problem will manifest itself in quick and ugly fashion.

The idea of a maemo.org Brainstorm was inspired mainly by two existing and successful experiences:

http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
"The Ubuntu community has contributed 17373 ideas, 106018 comments, 2246674 votes"

http://www.ideastorm.com/
"The Dell Community has:
* Contributed 13,477 ideas
* Promoted 712,580 times
* Posted 88,706 comments"

Browse those sites and you will see they quite match the equation "one problem = one brainstorm"

For entropic discussion there is the whole Talk already. Choose the most appropriate forum to kickstart a discussion. if someone wants to push a problem or a feature request with the clear determination to find the right solution, then Brainstorm is for you.

I think we should ask Oskari directly about the possibility to move existing solutions to other brainstorms, reorganize the meta-brainstorms and have a tighter filter in the jump from Sandbox to Under Consideration.

qgil

01-26-2010, 03:29 PM

Doing a bit of math, and if I'm reading correctly the stats above::

One Ubuntu brainstorm takes an average of 6,1 comments and 129,3 votes.

One Dell brainstorm takes an average of 6,5 comments and 52,8 votes.

Maybe this average is actually not that frequent, and in fact there is a bunch of proposals with very few votes and comments and then "real average" active ideas with, say, double comments and votes (12 comments and 260/100 votes).

In any case these numbers reflect the profile of focused discussions gathering a significative amount of votes way above the number of comments.

Helmuth

01-26-2010, 03:33 PM

Oh, okay. I tried to create a diagramm the last hour and finished it only 2 minutes ago.
But now I saw qgil's new post and have to familiarize oneself with his stuff. :)

So, okay. I just post my work without many comments.

My idea is not so far away from our current system. The only main different is at the moment the "in develop" and "implemented" state are at the Brainstorm level. At the moment any kind of posted Idea's from users in the Brainstorm System are immediately Solutions. We should change this.

This is related to my Post #61 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=480300&postcount=61):

To make it easier for everybody:
Call it Idea instead of Solution. Call it only a solution when the implementation is on scedule. :)

A not Implemented Idea could never become a Solution. It will still be a Idea! (as in real life)

This wouldn't fix all of our current problems. The main thing is still the posibility to move and rearrange Ideas from users to other Brainstorms, split them. Manage them. I fully agree. A "improve Maps" Brainstorm is awful to track. (and also to Vote)

It's even already handled this way. Here a example: portrait_mode_input (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/portrait_mode_input/)
The decistion was on Solution Level. But the Users can't see it how it works. And a justified claim was to improve the feedback to the users.

Texrat

01-26-2010, 05:40 PM

Very nice Helmuth... but I'm going to avoid looking at it carefully (I'm thanking your effort for now). I want to finish what I have going, then see how close we are. ;)

Helmuth

01-26-2010, 06:20 PM

Very nice Helmuth... but I'm going to avoid looking at it carefully (I'm thanking your effort for now). I want to finish what I have going, then see how close we are. ;)

Uuuh... SOOOOOORRY! :D My fault. :o :p

Do not let yourself get confused by me. ;)

It's only a fast drawing of my propagandized opinion here in this Thread. If you already read it last week carefully you know anyway everyting in this drawing.

But, let's compare when you're finsihed the master plan. :)

I guess you've got first a better toolkit and second a more precise imagination about the communication behind (to Nokia, talk, bugs).

Texrat

01-26-2010, 06:49 PM

Helmuth, no problem! I'm glad you worked that up! :)

chemist

01-26-2010, 08:27 PM

Nice Helmut!

What about dependencies? 2 Solutions block each other when working on the same code in different directions, but what about dependencies? Another brainstorm needs the "not accepted" solution and not the one in development; accepted solution was just easy to implement and screws the other brainstorm which has much more interest, more votes. And that just because developers didn't recognize, other solutions also depending on the now blocked brainstorm where already implemented just to meet dependencies and are all screwed. This would mean to fork the program, but the new program has other package- and version-dependencies as the older fork and needs a lot of space for those...

just an example how it could work... not
this is worst case I agree but it could happen...

some brainstorms already depend on things not implemented yet, not even in development.

well its up to the developers but knowing details wont slow them down.

Brainstorm needs to be a tool for the folks to show developers what they like to be solved and a tool for developers to track work in progress. At this point normaly the garage would come to speak but the link is missing... Should garage and brainstorm be connected... all together? Maybe bugtracker also?

I am confused...

The picture in my head is just huge... lets get the first steps done by hand, a feature to mark single solutions as "under consideration", "in development" as well as "implemented" would be great to start with. So not the brainstorm changes state but the solution! (thats what Helmut says isnt it?) also a direkt linking for dependencies, for solutions and brainstorms, should be setup. (Maybe a bugtracker as brainstorm-solution backend?)

I hope I did not disturb with that kind of braindead post, its what left my brain on its own without further organising it.

kwotski

01-26-2010, 09:31 PM

First, let me confess I've little practical experience of the Maemo brainstorm infrastructure.

I ventured in a little around the time I first found maemo.org, and found it confusing. Since then, I've tried to look on a couple of occasions when it was unbearably slow (I gather it's faster now but haven't tried) but abandoned this in the face of browser timeouts.

Despite this, I have enjoyed an occasional dip into this thread! - it's exciting to see people sincerely grappling with such difficult issues and processes.

Anyway, I wanted to post here just to suggest considering a wiki environment as a repository for brainstorm material, either as a prototype, adjunct, or an eventual replacement for the current system.

The thought, essentially, is that by applying a layer of ("socially enforced") conventions over the top of wiki functionality, a brainstorm system can adapt better and more quickly to process improvements than if these improvements have to go through a software specification / design / implementation cycle. There is a very real danger there of getting something that is costly, tardy and unexpectedly dysfunctional (http://www.businessballs.com/treeswing.htm).

I think if the edit rules are clear, the brainstorming community and on the whole, the maemo community at large, easily meets the required level of responsibility. (That's not to say a little bit of chaos is always a bad thing.)

The idea of a responsible person (for a particular brainstorm) also seems to fit rather well here - if a convention could be agreed that a given individual has editorial control of that brainstorm's wiki page (and responsibility for ensuring it meets the requirements of the operational system of conventions that is agreed.)

The whole business of linking to or including sections from other brainstorms, merging, and the like, can be done easily (if manually) by normal wiki edit processes.

Having conventions for layout and process that do not need to be specified and implemented in software creates the possibility for rapid experimentation and (mostly) easy reversion without the need for developer time.

The idea of a maemo.org Brainstorm was inspired mainly by two existing and successful experiences:

http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/

http://www.ideastorm.com/

It's quite interesting to compare these.

The ubuntu one is, I guess, structured pretty much similarly to the maemo one? The Dell one seems (on minimal inspection, admittedly) to be an article/comments system, and seems to exhibit quite a lot of the entropic qualities which people want to avoid here.

Though the structure of the ubuntu site is more similar to maemo's, it seems that situationally the Dell one has more in common, given that (well, I'm guessing, anyway) ubuntu is more, shall we say "amenable to democracy", whereas Dell, like Nokia, is a big, mostly hardware, corporate with an internal infrastructure that has had less exposure to processes typical of the open-source culture.

It would perhaps be interesting to research the actual effectiveness of these different approaches in creating solutions. I did notice a quote on the Dell site, that of 14th Dec last year they had "implemented almost 400 ideas" out of "over 10,000". That is actually a rather impressive 4% (I'm not being sarcastic), unless I did my arithmetic wrongly.

qgil

01-27-2010, 01:32 AM

Guys, there are basically two useful approaches:

a) We agree on the perfect scenario and have the means to implement it reasonably fast.

b) We agree only on a pragmatic next step but have the means to execute it.

Less useful combinations:

1) We agree on a perfect scenario but we don't have the means to implement it.

2) While spinning around 1) we don't even come up with a pragmatic and feasible next step we agree upon.

And the worst of all:

n) We end up in such complex discussion that even the core promoters of Brainstorm get blocked and are unable to even get the whole picture.

At the end this is simple: Brainstorm is a tool that helps us finding and discussing problems that matter to the community and their potential solutions. Then developers can look at the Brainstorm, help finding out the good useful solutions and eventually implement them. That's it for today.

So here is a proposal for a pragmatic next step: work on the meta-brainstorms to convert them in focused brainstorms. For that the most important feature missing seems to be Can't move solutions to other brainstorm proposals (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8153)

About adding brainstorm dependencies, bug tracker background, etc... Isn't this falling in an over-engineered tool? Remember: this is for discussing and highlighting potential solutions. The implementation comes from another way.

For instance, look at http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/call_recording/ : 3 ideas, two of them highly ranked. But then comes a developer, implements the one that got less votes and worst rank. Still it was the one he could address, he Just Did It and, guess what, everybody is happy now. One brainstorm implemented, mission completed (the call recording work continues, elsewhere) and what's next.

No more, no less.

chemist

01-27-2010, 07:02 AM

True!

I think easy should be our way.
Moderators to split up metas for the start and further an automated system doing the talk stuff at once, thats it.

I still think we should have something like a "depends on" hint or something alike.

b) is already true and n) is my current state ;)

For the loosing solutions problem, if talk is some day automated (first post has it all), we just move the whole talk thread over to Applications with changing the name to the developers choice of solution.

No more, no less.

Agreed?

Helmuth

01-27-2010, 07:30 AM

What about dependencies? 2 Solutions block each other when working on the same code in different directions, but what about dependencies?

The Diagramm is only a fast drawing on a high level and has only the focus on a single Brainstorm.

The Ideas (that could mutate to solutions) are only drawn as black boxes. I want only to vividly illustrate what i'm talking about.

Every single Idea should be independent. Move them fast from one to a other Brainstorm by a Moderator or Admin. (a information where a Idea was befor should be logged and viewable for everyone)

You can see. I haven't drawn any kind of propertys to a Idea blackbox. But there are several things imaginable. I attached a little sketch of a Single Idea. The blue text are the User Groups that can edit the fields.

But qgil is always right. This bug is our first step to a better world: Can't move solutions to other brainstorm proposals (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8153) :)

And he it is correct. The Brainstorming is only a idea pool for the developers. Thers no kind of liability. Sometimes this could get very frustrating. But I hope this kind of improvements and a better feedback could help the users to understand why their Idea was blocked and a other was preferred by the decision maker.

The picture in my head is just huge... lets get the first steps done by hand, a feature to mark single solutions as "under consideration", "in development" as well as "implemented" would be great to start with. So not the brainstorm changes state but the solution! (thats what Helmut says isnt it?) also a direkt linking for dependencies, for solutions and brainstorms, should be setup. (Maybe a bugtracker as brainstorm-solution backend?)

Yes, thats correct. :)
The biggest thing to solve is to release the hard relationship between Ideas (Solutions) and Brainstorms.
Then the Moderators should be able to edit the Brainstorms and Ideas. To Correct and order them. (please, including History)

The next big change (if wanted) is to track the Ideas (Solutions), not the Brainstorms. (its a cange in the system, I guess a hard work)

Everything else, relations to Bugs, links to blocking Ideas are only fields and columns in a database. Should be very easy to add more columns to a Item like a Solution when the system itself works correct. :)

What about to add redirection links if a Brainstorm is deleted for a other one?

For me a small but huge improvement: Please add the possibility to show more than 5 Brainstorms at once. (or have I missed a Button at the Brainstorm pages?) :)

Sasler

01-27-2010, 12:28 PM

As the original poster of Ovi Maps improvement suggestions (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/ovi_maps_improvement_suggestions/) I feel I need to say a word or two, since so many seem to be complaining about it. :D

To beginning with, I obviously could't imagine how huge it would become. It kind of took me by surprise. And it happened quite fast too. As a consequence some began to complain about it, especially a certain individual, whom I will not name <cough>qgil (http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?u=7630)<cough> out of respect of his anonymity. :p

Anyway this unnamed individual suggested that this Brainstorm should be divided into several smaller ones. I did this and this is the result (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/ovi_maps_turn_by_turn_navigation/). It's not immediately apparent, but if you look at it very closely, you may notice a slight difference on the amount of votes. :rolleyes:

After this "experiment", I decided against making any more separate Brainstorms of the original Ovi Maps thing. If i remember correctly, I already then suggested that the stage of the Brainstorm should be set per solution. I'm happy to notice that others have the same idea. I think it's the most logical solution for this problem. After all, people tend to prefer to participate on few popular events instead of a zillion small ones.

About this "responsibility" thing. It's not a bad idea on some Brainstorms, but perhaps not all. I certainly do not have the capacity to take the responsibility of that Ovi Maps Brainstorm. My only idea was that if someone from Nokia could see it and then pass on the popular requests. Then again, I do know for the fact at least one individual from Nokia (the aforementioned unnamed person) has seen it. But he not like me Brainstorm. He say it is very big poo poo. :D

qgil

01-27-2010, 04:01 PM

Anyway this unnamed individual suggested that this Brainstorm should be divided into several smaller ones. I did this and this is the result (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/ovi_maps_turn_by_turn_navigation/). It's not immediately apparent, but if you look at it very closely, you may notice a slight difference on the amount of votes. :rolleyes:

Thank you! Brainstorm moved to In Development with Harmattan as target. Please remove from the Ovi Maps meta-brainstorm the duplicated solutions referring to turn-by-turn navigation. Also feel free spinning off more brainstorms from there.

Texrat

01-27-2010, 04:26 PM

I believe I have found a way to make everyone happy. :) I mentioned this in the Forum redesign brainstorm thread but will repeat here:

I have an idea how to accomodate [Quim's] concerns and mine at the same time. Since the Brainstorm tool structure does not handle metastorms, I will use cross-referencing to connect the individual proposals. I also plan to create a master thread here to "rule them all and bind them". To that extent, I propose we create a new prefix called [Metastorm] to identify such threads. The first post of such a metastorm would list the individual Brainstorm proposals and provide links.

I think this is a good solution in lieu of a more functional tool.

This will be more clear on my upcoming diagram.

Helmuth

01-28-2010, 09:44 AM

This will be more clear on my upcoming diagram.

Hey Texrat, I'm only posting to point you to this post: #34 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=499251&postcount=34)

Another opinion. You should not miss this. Just for completeness ... :)

We're sitting here and waiting for your diagram. ...eager...scared...helpless...

Have you thought about grouping Ideas (Solutions) in Brainstorms instead of creating Metabrainstorms and track the groups instead of the Brainstorms itself?
It's something in the middle of my suggestion and the current system.

Mmmh... anyway... I guess this could become a question of faith. :rolleyes:

Texrat

01-28-2010, 10:46 AM

Sorry, my sucky paying job has been getting in the way of work I'd rather do.

Have you thought about grouping Ideas (Solutions) in Brainstorms instead of creating Metabrainstorms and track the groups instead of the Brainstorms itself?
It's something in the middle of my suggestion and the current system.

Sure. But the current tool won't support it as is.

soeiro

02-06-2010, 09:41 AM

Lately... Flandry, Quim, Randy and myself started to talk about what to do with the current Brainstorm situation.
(...)
Please feel free to share your thoughts, ideas and problems!
(...)

If we are going to keep the "voting process" for anything, we could add a new category of vote or at least make very explicity what it means to vote yes or no (specially thumbs down).

What I've being observing is that people are voting down for things that they don't care for. "Oh, that's a feature that I don't even know or couldn't care less about...so thumbs down!".

Example:
Proposal: "Make it possible to change the partition scheme (VFAT, MyDocs, etx3, rootfs, etc)"
Typical negative response: "No way! I don't know what you are talking about, I don't want to mess with it, thumbs down"

Either we create a third option, "I don't care" or we make it certain that voting "NO" is very different from not voting at all.

That is my 0.02.

Helmuth

02-08-2010, 07:07 AM

Another Argument to seperate the terms Ideas and Solutions: Post #20 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=515825&postcount=20)

By the way, why there are two solutions, but only one vote?

Some People are Confused. "Voting for the Brainstorm? 2 Solutions? What I have to Vote for? Both Solutions are going to be implemented?"

Edit: Okay. The thing below has been settled.

And by the way as asked here (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=512041&postcount=29) 3 days before: Why is a Brainstorm (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/microb_webbrowser-possibility_to_scroll_fast_in_long_websites/) mit carma 19 still in the Status Waiting?
Is there something broken? :(

RenegadeFanboy

02-14-2010, 08:36 AM

Beautiful. Sounds like semantics but as simple as it seems, semantics can trip up the best of processes.

Again, this supports the concept of solutions (or ideas) have semi-independent lifecycles.

We need to think of the model as project/task, and ask at each step: how would a project manager (or management tool) handle this?

Coming from the project management side, I'm working on a proposal which contains a general action handling/tracking system behind , which would help most of the problems you were listing in the last 6 pages :) [hopefully, this is not addressed in the next 5 pages, otherwise I replied too soon]

Anyway, being a long time PM, I'll do now something, which no sensible PM would ever do: I release early my draft prezi of maemo.org community proposal. Take a look: http://prezi.com/qefcq69cpjkm/

RenegadeFanboy

02-14-2010, 09:04 AM

At the end this is simple: Brainstorm is a tool that helps us finding and discussing problems that matter to the community and their potential solutions. Then developers can look at the Brainstorm, help finding out the good useful solutions and eventually implement them. That's it for today.

I'm on board with this suggestion and target - the Brainstorm is a bit more structured way to raise problems then the forum, with the possibility (or main outcome) to lead to an answer/solution/action.

To me (sorry, PM-infected mind) it still comes down to the same old issue-action (problem-solution, question-answer) pair.

slender

02-25-2010, 01:45 PM

I don't understand:
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/sim_toolkit/
It says:
This brainstorm is a duplicate
And I say:
Then what?

Latest activities to brainstorm SIM toolkit doesn't make any sense to me? I click links but it goes to same page? Lots of activity but users mentioned there are nowhere on brainstorm suggestions. Many savings by same and different users What what?

Am I stupid or is something broken or half implemented?

Texrat

02-25-2010, 01:59 PM

You're not stupid. Brainstorm needs some structural and process love. ;)

I was going to do a "simple" diagram of how I think the process should work here, but given the MeeGo development I am expanding that to include design recommendations. I can't say if any of it will be implemented here but it might make sense IMO to pilot MeeGo ideas here if nothing else. Bergie will also be involved and he is definitely the man. ;)

chrisp7

03-02-2010, 06:09 PM

Im not sure of the point of Brainstorm - what apps have actually been created using it - VERY few. Nothing seems to get beyond the consideration stage, and if it does get to under development - what has come of it?

Brainstorm just seems like a talking shop to me. Some bloody great ideas but nothing seems to be done with them. Why is this the case, its such a pity - if some of these ideas could be implemented the N900 could be almighty.

Flandry

03-02-2010, 06:13 PM

I'm excited to see what you come up with. :)

slender

03-02-2010, 06:13 PM

Its main function is to suck noise :) Its playground for people. Sing songs and hold hands :) Find wheel again and again and oops again *grin*

chrisp7

03-02-2010, 06:21 PM

I'm excited to see what you come up with. :)

I thought Nokia were going to support/potentially create some of the popular suggestions? Surely thats the way to get the development started - development as it stands is at a complete standstill.

Flandry

03-02-2010, 06:39 PM

Let me find the post where Quim explains it... helped make sense of it to me.

Edit:
Here it is, at least a start:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=468869&postcount=8

It's a place for ideas to get shaken down and the preferences of the community be made known to facilitate future development. Bug tracker is to developers what brainstorm is for the product managers. But you are right in that what the final solutions actually are, who they come from, and how they come about, is not really defined in brainstorm.

So my first smart *** response is still really the most direct possible product of brainstorm: spark off a little light bulb in the head of someone capable of implementing a solution.

chrisp7

03-02-2010, 06:51 PM

Let me find the post where Quim explains it... helped make sense of it to me.

Edit:
Here it is, at least a start:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=468869&postcount=8

It's a place for ideas to get shaken down and the preferences of the community be made known to facilitate future development. Bug tracker is to developers what brainstorm is for the product managers. But you are right in that what the final solutions actually are, who they come from, and how they come about, is not really defined in brainstorm.

So my first smart *** response is still really the most direct possible product of brainstorm: light a fire under someone capable of solving a problem with the ability to do something about it.

Yeah, but it isnt working - its been a long time in operation and it simply isnt lighting fires. Thats my point. Im not blaming anyone per se, just trying to start a discussion.

Flandry

03-02-2010, 06:54 PM

So let's go back to the part where you come in then, shall we?

Anyway, this really all belongs in the community forum or brainstorm thread i linked to, and is not a new conversation.

Edit: it's the problem of too many talkers and not enough doers. That seems to be a universal problem, so i'm not sure how we're going to solve it. I would disagree it's not working at all, but perhaps you have some specific cases in mind since you brought it up.

chrisp7

03-02-2010, 07:00 PM

So let's go back to the part where you come in then, shall we?

Anyway, this really all belongs in the community forum or brainstorm thread i linked to, and is not a new conversation.

My contribution is starting this thread, trying to start a discussion. My contribution has also been to contribute to brainstorming, suggesting solutions, voting proposing ideas. I dont think you should be questioning that. :)

edit - The point is people seem to be able to suggest good ideas but there arent many programmers. I think part of the problem is lack of monetary gain - ie no paid ovi store for Maemo yet - which is madness. Not sure what Nokia are playing at. This seems to be severely limiting Maemo 5.

Where is the seed funding from Nokia - as they have done for S60 - does this exist? (maybe it does!?)

Flandry

03-02-2010, 08:09 PM

Ironically, since we're agreed that what is lacking is the actual development, all of that is not actually helping resolve the problem. :P

TBH in spite of having done some moderation of the brainstorm forum and proposed and voted, i don't spend much time in brainstorm. I guess that comes from realizing that there's plenty of that going on and that even the rudimentary programming skills i have are a better employed than moving incoherent proposal threads out to pasture.

We have gone around a few times in this discussion about brainstorm over the past few months, and the lack of resolution each time reflects three things: (1) the disconnect between expectations and reality, (2) a lack of resources provided by Nokia, and (3) the generally poor advertising given when solutions are facilitated by brainstorm; a lack of ongoing statistics about the process.

The commercial and fiscal considerations you brought up (#2 reason) are generally out of the scope and reach of this forum, but there's definitely a strong following of that chorus here!

#1 is going to be a perpetual problem due to human nature.

#3 is the one that perhaps we can actually address. Since you brought it up through the subject statement of this thread , did you do some digging into numbers to support the conclusion that you make? Maybe you could bring some statistics so we can see what the reality is.

Texrat

03-02-2010, 08:33 PM

Sometimes the best things to come out of brainstorms are little intangibles that stimulate something unrelated to the original issue. ;)

sjgadsby

03-03-2010, 10:47 AM

The thread "Brainstorm - just a talking shop." with ten posts has been merged into this thread.

chrisp7

03-03-2010, 07:06 PM

Sometimes the best things to come out of brainstorms are little intangibles that stimulate something unrelated to the original issue. ;)

Such as? I agree Brainstorm is an awesome idea - but it just isnt working. Its really depressing - where is Maemo 5 going? Such lack of progress will turn people off. Nokia are the ones that need/should be stimulating the community.

---

I like Flanders idea about advertising - people just dont know about decent solutions/ideas. Maybe popular solutions need to be brought to the most popular forums attention somehow.

Helmuth

04-09-2010, 10:01 AM

Just another example that the Brainstorm System isn't working: Bug 5982 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5982) :(

The bug is fixed (since 2 weeks) and I asked for updating the related Brainstorm (http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/actions_when_device_is_locked_and_a_event_like_ale art-alarm_or_call_happens/) 3 days ago. But still no kind of response. (some other guys asked direktly at the Bug report before how it is fixed, also without response)

So, this is totally frustrating. I've invested many hour's in reading, writing, painting mockups to get the best solution out of the community. And now I guess no developer has ever seen the elected solution. They implemented simply their own solution. :(
I'm sure. No one will change it after the fixing when Nokia selected the worst solution.

I've got several good Ideas. Some written down on my phone. But no single one posted here in the last weeks, because I've had the feeling that this is only waste of my time and energy. And now, it seems it's really so! :(

Could someone help me to leave my depression? :(
Am I right? Have I done something wrong?

How could we change this situation?
Should we add a extra field at the Bug system to add links to the related Brainstorm? (this could also fix the "moved" solution problem - at the moment a Bug is only "moved" but no one knows where and it isn't reopened after the Brainstorm process is finished, IMHO we should change this situation - the solution "moved" should only be temporary - after the Brainstorm a bug should automatically reopen to follow the development until the solution is implemented)

pelago

04-09-2010, 10:23 AM

I agree. When bugs are fixed in Bugzilla, I would like to see more details about the fix, e.g. what the new UI elements are.

chemist

04-16-2010, 10:34 AM

A changelog policy has to be setup for that I think (if there isnt one yet).

For this the brainstorms need to be connected to programs if it is an enhancement so maintainer gets subscribed to it and knows about the suggestions.

NightShift79

05-16-2010, 12:28 AM

I wonder if one of you gurus could develop an youtube desktop widget...

chemist

05-17-2010, 05:13 AM

I wonder if one of you gurus could develop an youtube desktop widget...

One of the gurus is able to do so but this is the wrong thread for asking for developers to volunteer for open tasks. You may ask one of the current youtube-app maintainer for adding a widget to their app.

Helmuth

06-07-2010, 08:36 AM

Any updates on Texrat (http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?u=2855)'s Brainstorm system rework (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=480334&postcount=63)?

I can only see and follow the stagnation since several months. :(

What about all the Bugs and Ideas that were moved from bugs.maemo.org to Brainstorm?
Should we try to move them back or was this only a "mv /dev/null" ?

Helmuth

06-15-2010, 10:25 AM

Hmm... okay. Not a single reply, nobody is interested?

There is now a Bug report about this issue:
RESOLVED / MOVED Bug Reports are stucking in the Brainstorm system (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10687)

Please feel free to vote and comment if you have something useful to get this fixed. Normal discussions please only here. :)

It is a small first try. We can't fix everything at once. But I guess this Bug report is about one of the most important parts.

May Maple

08-18-2010, 05:25 AM

Ek! In Brainstorm - Open Discussion, I can comment whatever I like, right?

-- Then this comment to all people who always has free time to mocking around, and spam non-sense in other's thread!

+ May I ask you guys! Do you feel heavy when you post a thread, telling all of your idea to create an App, and what you get is some comment try to bring you down like "This post is stupid - This post is crazy - This is non-sense - This is pointless...etc..."

+ Althought your idea is good, and it can be made for the N900. But it is not as useful as other idea. Then people try to bring your thread down the hole. What do you feel?

+ For me, I'm a newbie to join this maemo talk forum, hoping all of you guys are good person who can approve people's idea and show respect to it. But what I really got is:
@ "this post is crazy..."

@ "What does that + do in every sentence ? some obscure Christianity or unknown dialect of l33t speak ?"

@ quit asking for iphone apps for n900.

its not going to happen.

go buy an iphone.

:P

@ dont they have that for the iphone?

Yup! Adding more words for a post....

@ Seems that May Maple simply wants an iPhone?!?

@These posts are crazy!

+++ What's wrong IF I bring iPhone App's idea to the N900's App?
++ I'm not asking you people to port the iPhone App to N900!
+ And I'm not asking people to come to my post and spam non-sense thing!

=> I feel like this BRAINSTORM BOX is just a TALKING SHOP! And everytime some-one post a thread, their brain will be stormed by jerks' foot.

- No-one respects each-other's ideas.
- They just come, read the topic, and spam a non-sense comment, then go.
- They don't care how the one who gives the idea gonna feel.
- And stop asking why did I put "+" every sentence. That's my style!

+ I just try to bring new idea to developers. If you are not a developer, then dissappear! Don't come to my thread and post non-sense in it!

+++ THIS BRAINSTORM IS AN IDEAS BOX! NOT A PLACE FOR YOU GUYS MOCKING PEOPLE! +++