Do you think the N900 will ever be finished?

[Kingsley]

Before I start this thread, let me say I really want an N900, I think the idea of opensource on a phone is long over due.

And they're £350 now...

I've had an N82 and a touch diamond the last year, so'm up for a spot of flashing..

Anyway, to get to the point.. When the N900 launched and features were missing like voice dialing, video calling, MMS. etc people were all saying it would come in updates.

Now 1.1 is out now and having looked at the change log, it mostly seems to be fixes, so my question is, does anyone think it's likely that these features will ever make it to Maemo on the N900?

I've noticed there's a bit more of a feeling of disillusionment amoungs people following the update?

Will it ever be a good phone aswell as a mini computer?

---
Lol just been on the nokia site... or is this why they'll give you a free 1661 ir 1208 with it? :p

[schettj]

Wow. After a whole 2 months, you're ready to throw in the towel.

Do you think Microsoft Windows will ever be finished? I mean, it didn't even have a web browser for the first 10 years!

Ah man. This stuff is priceless.

Of course it will get better, and better, and even better.

[Kingsley]

Lol it's not that i'm ready to throw in the towel.. just maybe need more convincing.. I'd quite look forward to having a bash at MBW-150 code..

[skalogre]

Maybe I am biased due to working in software development but I don't think any software is ever technically finished (at least the way customers understand that word); the userbase dries up, it becomes obsolete - or the developers throw in the towel ;)

[schettj]

Well, I can't convince you, but I'm fairly upbeat about the current state of maemo and the n900 and the prospects for the future. I've ridden the iPhone train since it pulled out of the station. This platform is much better even now then it was then, and is already evolving faster then the mighty fruitcake did.

But hey, you are in at the beginning. It's going to be ugly. It's going to be bloody. Animals will be harmed. Some of you may die... but its a risk I'm willing to take.

Seriously, this is a work in progress. It will be usable while its in progress, but it will be a bit rough for the short term.

[Kingsley]

Maybe I am biased due to working in software development but I don't think any software is ever technically finished (at least the way customers understand that word); the userbase dries up, it becomes obsolete - or the developers throw in the towel ;)

Lol ok you're right... no website I ever worked on was finished.. and i'll admit with all the pizzas and late nights in the world never by launch!

[go1dfish]

Software is never finished, unless it's very small and single purpose, or abandoned.

I hope the n900 is never finished, but I think you and I may have a different connotation to the word finished.

[skalogre]

Lol ok you're right... no website I ever worked on was finished.. and i'll admit with all the pizzas and late nights in the world never by launch!

:D

I have been the cause of minor delays before on projects so, uhm, yes. I know.

[groeit]

First updates will be to fix the phone, then they will add features.

[benny1967]

will it ever be finished? no. such devices never are. my 2 year old phone still, after 3 or more firmware updates, has most of the bugs it had when i bought it... and i'll probably not receive yet another upgrade as it's too old now.

same with previous maemo devices... they never fixed all bugs before they abandoned them.

so i'm 100% sure that when nokia one day decides not to continue development for the N900, it will still leave much to be desired.

do i care?
not much. it's always been like that with consumer electronics devices. dvd players, cameras, phones,.... you buy them, you find they have annoying bugs and lack features, you live with it. then after a while you buy the next big thing hoping it will "fix" all the issues the old one had... and you're in the same situation as before, only you have to get used to new bugs and new shortcomings.

it's normal.

[2disbetter]

Seriously. These kinds of thread are so played on this forum. I wish there was a filter that would auto reject threads like this.

You need to be convinced to hang in there with this phone? Yeah priority number 1 for me. Psssh.

Also the comment about windows not having a browser for 10 years is seriously lame. I know it's trendy to poke at Microsoft, but come on let's put some perspective on that. those first 10 years the internet was archaic. Now that windows does have a internet browser they get slapped with lawsuits.

Windows regardless of the reason, is the best platform for game design, until that changes windows is my cup of tea. OPENGL can't compete with directx 's feature set, and probably never will.

2d

[Rocketman]

I have ceased considering what might be added in making purchasing decisions when it comes to Nokia products. I look at what the device does now. The previous Maemo devices were abandoned with some pretty major bugs left unfixed and IMO very little core functionality added post purchase by Nokia. This tendency to abandon a userbase and platform has left a lot of end users and developers feeling burned and I think it is part of why we don't see a lot of commercial development or widespread enthusiasm for the platform, despite it being a far more open platform than Android/Iphone and even WebOS as well as being an impressive piece of hardware.

Nokia barely seems to mention the N900 or Maemo as part of their overall strategy and does very little in the way of advertising. I am pretty fearful of the signs that I am seeing that the N900 will probably be abandoned (perhaps sooner than even the 770) for business reasons, not technical ones, and will not see an upgrade to Maemo 6. I would even be willing to pay a modest fee ($25-50) for such an upgrade. If none is released, I am jumping ship. I've owned and been a daily user of all 4 Maemo devices and IMO Nokia really needs to make pretty fundamental change to its product cycle & level of post purchase support or I am out.

Nokia likes to talk a big game about transitioning to a more platforms and services model, but in action they are all about forced obsolescence and selling you a new device once a year. This really burns bridges with both users and developers. IMO, the Iphone model of significant upgrades on the hardware side, new software functionality added and released often, coupled with extending updates and backwards compatibility to first/second generation devices is very effective at keeping end users/buyers happy and building a platform that developers want to invest their time and efforts in.

[Tomaszd]

(...)and will not see an upgrade to Maemo 6. I would even be willing to pay a modest fee ($25-50) for such an upgrade. If none is released, I am jumping ship. (...)

You can jump ship right now then, because there is no way that Maemo 6 will be (officially) available for the N900.

[bonerp]

lol the phone is in its infancy. other phones take 6 to 12 months to mature. chill and enjoy it

[ruskie]

I'm seriously getting annoyed with these threads. If you don't like it then don't use it buy it etc... or just return it.

And before someone goes off on "right to own opinion" yes... you are as are we all. But this is a forum FOR the device/software/etc and for those that wont to have it work better, improve it, modify it, etc. In other words a community that isn't directly linked to Nokia. Not for "Nokia should do this because I say so" etc. Maybe create a "Messages to Nokia" forum where people can post all this dribble and the rest of us can get on with improving our experience and helping one another.

What a waste of time...

[Kingsley]

I'm sorry if i annoyed people with this tread.. It's a lot of money tho!
I've really liked the openess of the community from my browisng and that no one's in the "my code!" camp, and appreciate the frank opinions of you guys/gals with regards to the N900.
I think, like some of you have sugested, I'll get one, and have a play, It'll at least put me ahead of the curve if there's ever a next gen device..

[Dave999]

I think this Q is a no-issue. this phone will grow slowly. Nokia have no plans for helping out with features. maemo 5 is driven by the community.

[fatalsaint]

You can jump ship right now then, because there is no way that Maemo 6 will be (officially) available for the N900.

Is there a reason for this?

I am a little concerned about future support myself. Not that it'll prevent me from getting the N900... an open phone that I can actually do something with will allow me to fix what I want when I want no matter how long I have the phone.

But, if the N900 is going to be forgotten rather quickly in the "official" channels, to be replaced whatever 5 of 5 or 6 of 6 or whatever device is next with the capacitive and "maemo 6".. makes me a bit nervous. Especially considering that, for me, it's such a heavy cost.

[sadfist]

I'm sorry if i annoyed people with this tread.. It's a lot of money tho!
I've really liked the openess of the community from my browisng and that no one's in the "my code!" camp, and appreciate the frank opinions of you guys/gals with regards to the N900.
I think, like some of you have sugested, I'll get one, and have a play, It'll at least put me ahead of the curve if there's ever a next gen device..

I'd say go ahead and get it if you like the vibe of the community here and have interest in the many projects that people are working on. The feature set of the N900 looks on track to be pretty beefy in the coming months (it already is pretty crazy now, tho a little rough in some aspects). If you're interested in linux, open source, development, or just being a huge geeked out nerd-monster I'd say it's a no-brainer to pick up this device.

The only reason I'd suggest not getting one is if you aren't comfortable with the level of complexity involved with getting what you want from the device. A lot of stuff is not available out of the box. The community here more than makes up for that in my opinion, and I've rarely seen anyone be anything but helpful to someone who is polite and genuinely needs some help figuring something out.

I'd forget about the whole thing with Nokia's marketing of the N900 vs the reality of it (step 4/5, early adopter device, etc.). It'll be an endless argument that I'm sure will resume anew when the next device is released. As a reasonably tech-savvy end user new to linux and new to maemo I can say the real N900 experience is in the middle somewhere, depending on the features you need. The learning curve is totally in line with any new device or platform, except that you can take it as far as you want to go with the N900.

[thinh]

just like the n97 it will take alot of time.... Nokia doesn't throw firmware out that fast, hope they did becuz i love firmware updates lol

[maluka]

http://media.share.ovi.com/m1/s/1678/c7a40e06321443a980045ba0697b4374.jpg

[jvtc10]

n900 could have some delays but for me it still rocks since the first morning and soon it will be even better!

[Kingsley]

I'm gonna go for it! am gonna order one just as soon as the webiste works again..

[Bazza]

i cannot believe the N900 is being written off already,:eek::eek::eek::eek:

I would say but i could be wrong that january opened the door for most people to get their hands on a N900 (budget, availability for contract upgrades etc) apart from hardcore users who bought one on release and got a head start developing for it hence most 3rd party apps we can get now (thanks must go to them).so i would say from this month onwards we can get a good picture on how popular this phone will be and the coming months will yield some great applications.

[luflux]

will the n900 ever be finished.....i hope not.

[Catacylsm]

Yeah, why on earth would it be finnished, believe it or not, its only just begun!

[ahynes1]

I have to join with some of the others here. I got my N900 shortly before Christmas. Yes, I was disappointed that it didn't have MMS. I'm now running fMMS, which isn't perfect, but is a step in the right direction.

I've never done voice dialing or video calls, so that hasn't bothered me. On the other side, I love it as both a phone and as a computer. It is a great device to build applications for, it exceeds almost all of my telephony needs, and does pretty nice in various audio and visual applications as well.

Yet the most important part is that it will never be finished, or at least not until something much more powerful comes along. Until that time, I'm going to test and play with all kinds of apps and ideas. I'm just starting to read up on HDR photography and trying to figure out how to do that.

[andygee]

I can only speak for the UK but I have noticed the N900 maybe a bigger hit than Nokia were expecting.
With all the hype of Smartphones in the media but the iphone to be replaced in the summer putting off a lot of people from buying and the nexus one hard to obtain at least for everyday users in the UK and elsewhere. The N900 may have a window where it considered by many everyday users who want the highest spec smartphone avaiable..

Hopefully this will force Nokia to invest time, effort and money in the N900. Maybe they will learn a good device now has a longer shelf life. With people having 18 and 24 month contracts in some cases software will become more important. As the Iphone and android have shown. Nokia when announcing OVI were hinting at that services were where the money is.

Plenty of N900 Users will be prepared to have an easier life with easy to install apps and possibly whole suites of software so their device can be modified to suit their needs/intrest. Which is im sure will turn Nokias head..

[lfcobra]

i dont think we need to worry about nokia dropping support for the n900 for quite sometime. They just like to take their time when it comes to releasing fw updates. I honestly do wish they'd change their approach to be similar to most other open source project: release early, release often. But I can understand why they dont, they want to test and make sure everything is as polished as can be before it gets into the hands of their customers.

[yeuemmaimai]

wow, some of these responses are totally asinine.....

Nokia N900 is a phone, therefore it should do basic phone stuff really well and voice dialing is one of those things that should have been implimented from the start.... Where I live, it is illegal to use a cell phone without a hands free device and having the ability to press the call button on the hands free device and speak something like "call wife" should be readily doable....... even my ancient Blackberry 8120 can do voice dialing......

[RevdKathy]

What is this 'finished' you speak of?

Will it ever reach a point where I wouldn't bother installing a new, kick-*** app because my n900 is 'finished'?

Will it ever reach a point where I put it to one side and don't bother looking for new things to make it do (as I have other phones)?

Will it ever cease to suprise me, because I know all about it, and am bored?

Dear God, I hope not. I hope my n900 goes on growing, developing and becoming more and more exciting for a long time yet. I don't want a device that I set up, and then say "Right, that's done then".

Of course, I have an advantage. Being a linux-virgin, there's so, so much for me to learn and try and explore. So I guess the question for me is not whether My Mo will ever be 'finished' but whether I will.

When I stop learning, screw the lid down on the box, will you?

[Catacylsm]

I definately agree with that rev. :)

I too have to learn all the traits of linux (When my n900 actually arrives tommorow/next day.) And thats an experience i cannot wait to explore.

[rebhana]

Read this:

http://temporaryland.wordpress.com/2010/01/20/openoffice-org-and-the-gimp-on-the-n900/

and you'll find out that the N900 is unfinished in the most positive sense of the word.

After having read the above, I've installed Easy Debian on the N900, and so my N900 is more unfinished than ever, because I can now import rather freely from Linux, and keep expanding the capabilities of the N900, safely combining the exisiting software in Debian with the elaborate firmware of the N900, which I also like very much. Just yesterday, I've added printing support to my N900 by installing CUPS (described in http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=490369#post490369)
so I can print out anything now on my network printer at home.

[slender]

Do you think the earth will ever be finished?

[smoku]

Maemo platform suffers from the fact that that it is a third platform in Nokia offering. There is S60, then S40, [big blank here] and then there is Maemo.
It will get even worse with Maemo 6 and the upcoming "unified Qt-based experience".

Maemo needs a second company that will take an opportunity (and risk) of making Maemo it's main and only operating system.
I am excited by the Chinese devices powered by Maemo. I surely hope that we will see another HTC-like story on Taiwan etc. - but this time with Maemo powered devices. :)

[Kingsley]

Everyone is so quick to jumpt to Maemo's defense!
I was more getting at it being finished in terms of featurese you'd expect from a phone....
I guess we'll just see what happens!

[Arif]

No, it never will.
Just like the N95 never got firmware updates to fix bugs and the iPhone never got features added.. :confused:

[schettj]

I was more getting at it being finished in terms of featurese you'd expect from a phone....

LOL. This is the maemo fan site. You were expecting what?

Besides, I've been using WinMO phones for 6 years, and I'm still waiting for Microsoft to finish WinMo in terms of phone features - and that included me buying a new phone every 1.5 years, since there is never more then 1, if even 1, official firmware update for any winmo phone.

So sure, MAEMO will become more and more feature rich over time. Most, many, all? of those changes will be available on the n900 at least until its hardware is too old to support newer features.

Hey, did you know you can't get the latest droid (2.0) for the original G1? What a ripoff! I paid $550 for that phone!

[Kingsley]

LOL. This is the maemo fan site. You were expecting what?

Besides, I've been using WinMO phones for 6 years, and I'm still waiting for Microsoft to finish WinMo in terms of phone features - and that included me buying a new phone every 1.5 years, since there is never more then 1, if even 1, official firmware update for any winmo phone.

So sure, MAEMO will become more and more feature rich over time. Most, many, all? of those changes will be available on the n900 at least until its hardware is too old to support newer features.

Hey, did you know you can't get the latest droid (2.0) for the original G1? What a ripoff! I paid $550 for that phone!

Indeed I remember my N70 never even had all the bugs fixed before it's contract was up!

I indeed read about the G1, not great for early adopters.. besides I don't think I'm ready to sell my soul to Google just yet!

I think my biggest problem with WM was that the manufacturers always skin it up to make it look all nice and apeal to consumers, who were inevitably dissapointed when they realised how much of the user experience was still the same as on a 8 year old pda..

I do have a lot of hope for the N900 and that Nokia will continue to support it with new OS releases, but should probably have more faith that the community will find a way to get them to work anyway!

[gerbick]

As a prior 770, present N810 owner... and honestly less fanatical than most about the Maemo platform - it's great, but Nokia keeps restarting and forgetting the prior platform - you have a reason to be concerned.

But I'll ask you this. If being on the cutting edge bothers you, don't buy the N900. I mean, being an early adopter, you've already resigned yourself to getting possibly screwed. You might not like it, you might even write an angry letter or ten to the company that left you behind; however being an early adopter means that you might just left behind.

Been there, done that.

As far as the phone being "finished"... that's what this community is for. Want something, mention it. It might just happen. Now that is a good part about Maemo.

I personally have decided not to go with the N900 mainly because I can afford either the phone or afford the switch to T-Mobile, but not both. And the price of admission is always higher for early adopters.

But be honest. It's new, it's shiny and damn right you want it. Use more than just that notion (of newness) to figure out if you should buy it or not.

[Kingsley]

It's ordered!!
woop!

[yorg]

I do have a lot of hope for the N900 and that Nokia will continue to support it with new OS releases, but should probably have more faith that the community will find a way to get them to work anyway!

Hello Kingsley. I also had a N82 before the N900 (and I also live in soton! :p). Do you think that phone was finished?

I tried to install ovi maps 3 on the N82 for fun yesterday (as all navigation became free) and the phone wouldn't do it. I had to reflash it and manually delete some files from the flash card.

Having said that, the N82 was a really good phone IMHO. And IMHO the N900 is already better.

The only features I am missing from the N82 is the xenon flash and T9. Any of the other features like Video Calling (i never ever used it) or MMS (it has become available as a community app) were never that important to me anyway.

Of course now that Ovi Maps 3.0 turn by turn navigation is free, I would like that too, but then I can use my N82 for this until something comes up for maemo.

I hope this helps! :)

[Kingsley]

The only features I am missing from the N82 is the xenon flash and T9. Any of the other features like Video Calling (i never ever used it) or MMS (it has become available as a community app) were never that important to me anyway.


Cool so there's at least one for me to keep my eyes peeled for!

Yeah i really like the camera, but i heard somewhere Nokia are abandoning the Xeon flashes alltogether?

This'll be my first mobile in 10 years not on orange too so all change!

Can't wait!

[paai]

Yeah, why on earth would it be finnished, believe it or not, its only just begun!

Seeing as Nokia is a finnish firm, I certainly believe it is 'finnished'.

(Sorry, couldn't let that one go :-) )

Paai

[twaelti]

By definition, it can't be finished ever. Because the hardware part (which IS finished) is only a small part of the whole - the software is much more important. And software is NEVER finished :-)
Especially not on a platform as powerful as maemo!

[smoku]

Maemo needs a second company that will take an opportunity (and risk) of making Maemo it's main and only operating system.
I am excited by the Chinese devices powered by Maemo. I surely hope that we will see another HTC-like story on Taiwan etc. - but this time with Maemo powered devices. :)

I've never even dream of Intel... :D
http://meego.com/

[twigleaf1976]

I do like it when people come out saying that maemo is great and that it is going to get better. But is it? Maemo just got canned and will become MeeGo. Or am I the only one that sees another dead end platform that will be merged. Maemo might live on in Meego, but the N900 will become an evolutionary dead end. Nokia has a recent history of dumping phones relatively quickly and I can see it happening again. My carrier dumped the N97 full version after a couple of months, even the N97 mini never got taken on. I see the bigger picture and it is all about market share, Nokia is losing out to everyone becaues symbian is old, slow and not fit to fight the new breeds of phones like the iphone and Android. So it is merging with rivals to gain ground, that rival is IBM and that means a casualty will be Maemo. Two platforms can't be supported never mind three and they haven't killed symbian off because the other 4 squllion handsets they insist on producing still use it.

You can't compare Maemo or this phone to windows, windows was written when there was little development cycle, because there was not a PC in every house, computer science wasn't taught in every school and the micro chip wasn't in everything. AND the most important factor it has to work with over a hundred different manufacturers of hardware when standards meant little, coping with drivers, old and new, bugs, games etc. Maemo on the N900 has one hardware spec. Just one. It came out in a world where everything from your fridge to your watch can go online. It came out in a world where EVERYOTHER device it is competing with has some functionality that it lacks. More importantly, still is lacking.

I like the N900 but for the price and what I use it for, no review told me the SMS support was bad or MMS was ignored. And a community app that requires online connection and connecting to servers is appalling for people who value security and battery life. Compared to HTC, Apple and Android, Nokia has a serious fight on their hands and I don't think they know it, given the N97 didn't have full stop and comma on the keyboard, and the N900 isn't a phone. I don't think they understand it, or at least their developers and designers don't.

[ossipena]

nothing will be ever finished. devices evolve via iterations.

[pycage]

So it is merging with rivals to gain ground, that rival is IBM and that means a casualty will be Maemo.

It's Intel, not IBM.

Two platforms can't be supported never mind three and they haven't killed symbian off because the other 4 squllion handsets they insist on producing still use it.

Why should they kill Symbian (this early)? Most of the smartphones in the world run Symbian, and Maemo/MeeGo isn't there yet to replace Symbian. Nokia insists the N97 being their flagship smartphone, not the N900.


And a community app that requires online connection and connecting to servers is appalling for people who value security and battery life.


MMS always works by connecting online to servers. It's just that the other phones hide this fact from the user when they support MMS natively. This doesn't improve battery life or security, really. The MMS community app is getting help by Nokia, so it's not purely a community effort, either.

[smoku]

[...]

OK. That is all true... but... what's your point?