A comment on repository info standards, and a question on installing Minimo...

[crackhead]

With my recent purchase of an N800, I'm a newbie to Maemo...but I am somewhat comfortable with linux in general. I have found the most confusing aspect of the whole InternetTabletOS to be the "repositories" for installing apps via the ApplicationManager. I understand what they do, but there doesn't seem to be any standard in the way many developers instruct users enable the repositories necessary for installing their apps. For example, I was perusing the list of tested apps for InternetTabletOS2007 here:

http://maemo.org/maemowiki/OS2007_Tested_Applications?highlight=%282007%29

The author mentions that Minimo seems to be mostly working, but then gives this info:

But first add the minimo repository to your list off application catalogues i.e. configure the minimo repository to your Application Manager using following parameters:

*"Repository" field should be "[WWW] http://home.ufam.edu.br/~agan/minimo/" "Distribution" field should be "mistral/"


This appears to be incomplete information, as he does not mention what should be entered in the "Components" field. I tried to guess ("user"? "free"? "non-free"?) but each guess simply resulted in ApplicationManager choking and using an old list of installable apps...a behaviour which I also find a bit absurd. Why it can't gracefully skip the files in the "bad" repository instead of reverting to an old version of the list is beyond me.

Anyway, this is only one of a number of instances of incomplete repository information I've noticed while trying to setup my device. If I was a general consumer I think I would be incredibly frustrated by the technical knowledge required to simply install an application! Of course the device's openness and hackability is one of its most desirable features, and it's difficult to provide both ease-of-use and hackability.

So, does anyone know what the settings need to be to get Minimo installed? I'm very disappointed that Google Maps is unusable in the included version of Opera...

[Rocketman]

The repository information is correct:

Web address: http://home.ufam.edu.br/~agan/minimo/
Distribution: mistral/
Components: <LEAVE BLANK>

It would be nice if more developers released .install files to make it easier for novice users to install their applications. It looks rediculously simple to do.

[benny1967]

The general problem is that devels spread their applications across 176.261 repositories. Isn't there a "extras"-rep meant for 3rd party applications? It would be so much more convenient to have developers bring their programs there.

[crackhead]

I actually tried leaving it blank, but it choked on that as well.

[Rocketman]

Works absolutely fine for me. Did you remember to leave the / after mistral? The / is actually essential and a lot of people leave it out because all the other repositories they have seen just say mistral, without the / afterward and assume it is a misprint.

[mwiktowy]

I actually tried leaving it blank, but it choked on that as well.

Well ... today is your lucky day, it would seem. The reason for your non-success has nothing to do with you but rather the fact that that particular repository seems to be down today. I have been using that repo for months now and just today noticed that it was causing my package update on my 770 to choke too.

He might be doing some changes to the server or could be experiencing some ISP issues. Keep the info you typed in and disable that repo by unchecking the enable box. Then try it again at a later time.

If you have problems in the future, sometimes the Log available in the Tools menu is useful.

[srstein]

The general problem is that devels spread their applications across 176.261 repositories. Isn't there a "extras"-rep meant for 3rd party applications? It would be so much more convenient to have developers bring their programs there.

I agree. I found it mildly annoying that I have to add in so many repositories to get the applications I want. I'm a long time debian user and I love being able to select the applications out of the standard repositories and have them update when a new version is available. You'd also be able to mirror the repositories more easily.

It would be a great day when all of the applications could into unstable, testing and stable repositories. Sure, setting up .install files would help too, although, it's harder to know how well the applications have been tested and you still have a long list of repositories to manage.

It looks like there's some promise over at maemo.org with the new Application Catalog (http://test.maemo.org/applications), extras repository (http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ExtrasRepository) and the MUD initiative (http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/index.php).

[vlg]

I just used MaemoExtras repository to upload my application, and speaking from the trenches can comment on a couple of points:

1. When you upload a package, the repository performs some sort of validation and then info update to include new package for everyone to see. This takes some time, and meanwhile, nobody can access Extras.

2. The developer doesn't get an e-mail notification on the process whatsoever. At least Fedora Extras repo system sends you an e-mail reporting its progress. This way, if something goes wrong, you are aware. On the other hand, to deploy anything with Fedora Extras is as well a mind-boggling experience.

3. Unless I overlooked, there is no way to remove the old version of the software - so if the last was MAJ.MIN.MIC-1 and you submitted MAJ.MIN.MIC-2, *both* versions are there in the repository. Please, someone, prove me wrong :confused:

4. And, of course, the repo maintainer doesn't return e-mails. I tried both ferenc[AT]maemo.org or garage[AT]maemo.org.

So, as you can see, MaemoExtra is a bit cumbersome.
On the other hand, a developer who puts out his application via his own repositor is immune of all these problems because he is in control of the environment. It is an inconvenience to the end user, but as Stallman once said, "we're not here to make the user happy." :D

[gnuite]

1. When you upload a package, the repository performs some sort of validation and then info update to include new package for everyone to see. This takes some time, and meanwhile, nobody can access Extras.
I have not experienced this "down time" that you mention. From what I can tell, at least in the last few months, it looks like there is a cron job that runs every 10 minutes to update the repository, and that update appears to be rather quick. Just look at all the timestamps for the .deb files in the pool for the last few months - they all have timestamps divisible by 10 minutes.

2. The developer doesn't get an e-mail notification on the process whatsoever. At least Fedora Extras repo system sends you an e-mail reporting its progress. This way, if something goes wrong, you are aware. On the other hand, to deploy anything with Fedora Extras is as well a mind-boggling experience.
This is indeed a problem. I never get email notification, regardless of the success of the operation, although I was told that notifications should be sent in case of an error.

A workaround is just to check the repository manually after the next 10-minute mark. If the .deb is in the pool, and if the Packages file contains an entry for your new package, then it worked. Otherwise, something went wrong - try running lintian on your package and see if there are any errors.

3. Unless I overlooked, there is no way to remove the old version of the software - so if the last was MAJ.MIN.MIC-1 and you submitted MAJ.MIN.MIC-2, *both* versions are there in the repository. Please, someone, prove me wrong :confused:
You shouldn't need to remove old versions. The Application Manager will only install the most recent version (based on the version number, I think, or maybe the datestamp). The old versions are there for legacy reasons (in case people directly linked to an older version, for example, or in case you want an older version for some reason).

4. And, of course, the repo maintainer doesn't return e-mails. I tried both ferenc[AT]maemo.org or garage[AT]maemo.org.
Ferenc is usually quite responsive with my questions, except on the weekends (when he is probably not at work); maybe he was busy or out of the office?

So, as you can see, MaemoExtra is a bit cumbersome.
On the other hand, a developer who puts out his application via his own repositor is immune of all these problems because he is in control of the environment. It is an inconvenience to the end user, but as Stallman once said, "we're not here to make the user happy." :D
Okay, so the extras repository is not the easiest thing in the world to use. But once you get the hang of it, it gets easier. And it's certainly better than having a hundred different repositories, one for each 3rd party application.

If any Garage developers are having trouble with the Extras repository, PM me. I am willing to donate my time toward providing the end user with an easier 3rd-party installation experience. I'm not Ferenc, but I was one of the first developers to start using the Garage and its repository, so I have a lot of experience with them.

[aflegg]

It looks like there's some promise over at maemo.org with the new Application Catalog (http://test.maemo.org/applications), extras repository (http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ExtrasRepository) and the MUD initiative (http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/index.php).

Agreed with all your points (although it seems to be well understood that there's a problem on maemo-developers, and there are efforts to fix that).

But I just wanted to say "yay! my shiny MUD (http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/) pages have been referenced" ;-)

[badger]

It would be nice if more developers released .install files to make it easier for novice users to install their applications. It looks rediculously simple to do.


They are so simple its silly, a text file... and a mime type on the webserver...

I think we should have a forum with tested .install files... Especially as the n800 will end up (sooner or later) being a mass market device.

We will however need .install added to the attachments list etc