Maemo 6 and/or MeeGo on N900: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

[Stskeeps]

Okay, Listen very carefully I shall say this only once.

EDIT: For those too damn lazy to read the whole post, please read: You're in good hands. Stop worrying. Your N900 won't break when Maemo6 or MeeGo comes out, or be less useful. If you want details, read the post.

First, some background. I'm maemo.org distmaster, which means I facilitate operating system development in the community. In the past year, I have been working on the Mer project, which was a project to put an alternative and community supported OS on Nokia tablets and other devices. I know a darned lot about how these devices work and the organisational aspects of OS development on them by working on them for a very long time. I work on bringing Maemo 5.0 to Nokia N800, N810(W).

I've had to deal with Nokia in many different ways in this role and I've been met with respect and understanding when I've approached them with logical and organisationally sound arguments.

This should be enough in terms of argument by authority, merit and hopefully logically sound arguments. If you can't accept either, don't keep on reading, but don't complain about this issue from now on.

So, let's start dissection the argument: "Nokia not bringing MeeGo or Maemo6 to N900".

First off, let's look at our raw material - the N900. You see a cellphone. It requires updates from vendor to get new features, it will stop getting updates when vendor stops caring and there's nothing we can do about it.

Instead, I see a mobile computer. Remember your PC? The same way you could install Vista on your PC or XP or even Ubuntu or other crazy operating systems, this is possible on your N900 - you do not have to rely on your hardware vendor to provide a OS for your device. On a PC, you rely on them providing drivers for your computer. It's the same on a N900 - drivers, kernel, battery management and so on.

So, first question you should ask instead:


Will Nokia as a hardware vendor continue to provide drivers for N900 for MeeGo and Maemo 6? (Will they devote resources to do this or help community to do this themselves)


If Nokia will do this, it's obvious that community versions for N900 of MeeGo and Maemo 6 can exist. Even if the drivers aren't open source - Nokia is very flexible in this regard and has shown this in the past.

Next question is for yourself:


Do you trust that the community is capable of producing a production quality MeeGo or Maemo 6 for N900, if it had technical assistance by Nokia for driver issues? And would you use it?


Next step. You're worried you are getting left behind in terms of applications from 3rd parties targetting Maemo6 and MeeGo.

No, because they are targetting the "Qt" framework which we already have on the N900, even on Maemo5. We have also seen Maemo6/Harmattan UI libraries running on Maemo5. What are you worrying about? It looks quite compatible to me. With OBS in MeeGo, it would even be possible to rebuild straight for Maemo5 with little effort.

That question would then be:


Will applications coded for MeeGo/Maemo6 be possible to build for Maemo5 with little effort?


So, next step: Maemo 6 isn't just drivers. Some of you also would like to see the stack of Nokia applications from Maemo6/Nokia MeeGo versions brought to N900 (Ovi Maps, Media player and other programs I don't use that much). This is a more difficult question as it relies on organisational issues and if it makes economic sense and sells devices.

It also depends on capabilities of the hardware (If N900 doesn't have lasers, of course the "Evil Mastermind" program that requires lasers on your device won't work).

The question would then be:


Will Nokia be using the cross-platformness of MeeGo APIs to bring their software stack to all Nokia devices running the MeeGo platform (community or vendor-originated)?


Now, can we please stop worrying about all this stuff and love the fact we're having a device as open as a PC to bring us things when a corporate entity might not - and a community capable of bringing us the features anyway? And that we are getting a fully open platform (MeeGo) that we can easily get on our devices. And even so, Maemo5 has a -long- life ahead of it still. You aren't getting forgotten after this announcement.

My recommendation is to start asking this set of questions in a constructive manner. Panicking isn't the solution here - look at what's actually possible and what -you- can do to help the situation. Panicking sure doesn't help the situation and just creates noise so nothing gets done.

[weirdbeard]

im guessing around the time of the next firmware update a meego n900 firmware will pop up on the meego site for testing.

[maxximuscool]

lol too long man.. Too much to read

[Stskeeps]

lol too long man.. Too much to read

Grab some coffee and read it through. There's no short version to this as people will be picking apart at the arguments if it was too short.

[weirdbeard]

lol too long man.. Too much to read

I agree completly.....although It is 4am here and I have to wake up in a few hours. I have a better excuse for not reading the whole thing.:cool:

[RevdKathy]

Yet another post makes me wish there were a 'double-thanks' button. :p

[Dave999]

lol too long man.. Too much to read

could someone sum it. :)

[weirdbeard]

Yet another post makes me wish there were a 'double-thanks' button. :p

or a thanks button with with the ability to add a high five!

[admiral0]

Seing the openness of meego i'd say the most important is question #1.
But the only driver that i'm sure is closed is the 3d driver.

So we should bug nokia asking for a open driver or at least a easy way to have it installed (see nvidia)

The other things do not concern me as i trust nokia. Meego is a good choice.

[hellnick]

could someone sum it. :)

Something about we're all going to die but the devs will make sure that the N900 always has an innovativel o/s. There might have been something about a teapot...

[bsving]

Moot points, all of them. When Nokia release their brand new and funky N950 (or whatever) with Maemo 6, I expect 99% of us will purchase one and forget about the N900.

[Viny]

i know i wont be purchasing one, 600 bucks for a new phone/tablet is alot man xD

[attila77]

Okay, Listen very carefully I shall say this only once.

An excellent post, with many very good point, some already known, some clarified, but sadly, I don't think it's what the 'will it run on my...' (Drink!) crowd can (or even wants to) understand. As we have seen, these people want a yes/no answer and, worse yet, they expect it from Nokia. It's total tunnel vision, the technical, organizational, and any other differences are not important, they yet to grasp what proper Open software means and how it can impact their existing device's present and future abilities (and in light of that what they should REALLY be fighting for). That said, I applaud the 'can do' approach and devotion of many community platform developers, especially you, for the work on Maemo (=Mer), and hopefully MeeGo so we can bring as much of these as possible to our past, present and future devices, and the community at large. Thank you.

[Espen]

lol too long man.. Too much to read

Could it be that your brain has become too short, if you cant read as short a text as this well argued message?

[pyromaniac]

finally .. a positive outlook :) ..

[ggroen]

I work on bringing Maemo 5.0 to Nokia N800, N810(W).

I think Maemo 5.0 on N8X0 would indeed proof your point! Succes on that!

Besides that, you convinced me already. I trust there will be a lot of other community members / developers giving this an effort to make our N900 even better.
And no, my N900 isn't broken at all, I'm enjoying it big time!

[davedap]

made me feel a lots better and more positive this morning many thx

[omeriko9]

could someone sum it. :)

Basically it says "Don't worry, be happy :)"

[mikec]

My personal belief is that the situation is even BETTER than how stskeeps has itemised.

Not only should you not worry, but be prepared for a new age of choice, increased innovation, standardization, and use-ability.

Choice

This is very difficult for people that don't run a Linux desktop to understand, so perhaps a little explanations is in order.

1. I have a PC. I don't rely on Microsoft or Apple to give me operating system updates.
2. I can run a range of Linux variants on my PC. There are 100s of variants, but lets take the two that are most similar in approach to MeeGo as examples, Namely Redhat Linux and Novell SuSE.

3. I use these as examples not because they happen to use RPMs for software distribution containers, but because they are SOLD and supported by professional companies that need to make money to stay alive. You could lump Ubuntu here , but I digress.

4.Both Red Hat and Novell have community driven versions of their flagship operating systems, called Fedora, and Open SuSE respectively.

5.I can choose to use the professional versions from both Redhat and Novell, which have greater stability, and typically are paid for box sets with annual support charges (thats how they make their money) but as a user I know when I place a support call to them they will look into it and provide patches and help trouble shoot problems. Downside though is these version typically get less advanced features, less updates.

Or I can choose to use Fedora or Open SuSE. They have latest features, bleeding edge functions and get very frequent updates at no cost to me and are free to download. They have thriving communities, lots of informal help, and shed loads of applications.

no doubt many variants of MeeGo will materialze as we have already seen in Moblin. And it will put more pressure on the ARM vendors to release drivers for MeeGo.


Increased innovation

Meego now has the resources to become mainstream and upstream distribution. It already has downstream variants with major support from all three of the major Linux vendors.

-Novell SuSE Moblin will become MeeGo
-Fedora Mini a Moblin based distro will become MeeGo
-Ubuntu Remix will become MeeGo

and now Maemo will become MeeGo, and I assume Mer will become “Open MeeGo”.

With so much “wood behind the same arrow” innovation will accelerate

Standardization

The biggest complaints from old Tablet owners is Nokia's constant change of the base OS. But today we find that MeeGo is now owned by the Linux Foundation, Keepers of the unification effort of Linux called the Linux Standards Base LSB. Many of the Linux wars like Gnome vs KDE, composite managers, Sound API's, Media containers etc etc have all pretty much settled down. Nokia has been brought into the Mainstream, and is now part of Mainstream that it will be less able to make “dumb decisions” on its own. There will be more eyeballs and more interested parties in making sure that the platform is a success for its Developers and users.

Useability

Imagine Qt is the standard development tookit for MeeGo. Imagine the productivity gains across MeeGo,Symbian,Linux etc. More cosistant UI's across not just he OS but the applications as well.

I believe that our N900's will have a longer and more exciting life with Meego than without.

Bring on the MeeGo Nokia Booklet. :D

[ysss]

I think those that want to fully depend on community support would appreciate a gesture by Nokia if they open source all the hardware drivers for N900 :)

[Stskeeps]

I think those that want to fully depend on community support would appreciate a gesture by Nokia if they open source all the hardware drivers for N900 :)

Kernel drivers are already open, but the good thing is - they don't need to open battery management, etc, just allow people to distribute them to Nokia devices and set up a legal framework for this. They are very flexible.

[mikec]

Drivers are not Nokias to gift.
MeeGo will put more pressure on OMAP vendors to "Donate"

Coincidence of recent TI 3D drivers ?

[ysss]

@mikec: I thought it (partly) depends on Nokia's licensing terms with them?

[zwer]

Thank you! I've been trying to say that for days but you've summed it up in a far more concise way so now we can post a link pointing here instead of writing 1000s of words to explain the basic idea. This thread goes straight into bookmarks.

Could it be that your brain has become too short, if you cant read as short a text as this well argued message?

I'd argue that he cannot read properly (and that he purposefully edit quotes to say something that was not mentioned in the original post), just had a taste of that @ HERE (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=537951#post537951) :rolleyes: Why Stskeeps thanked him for that is beyond my comperhension, tho...

@mikec: I thought it (partly) depends on Nokia's licensing terms with them?

I think that Nokia's license from TI (and others vendors) refers only to their devices, so they cannot really open-source drivers not owned by them. Something like Adobe being unable to open-source the H.264 and On2 VP6 decoders... We should put pressure on all hardware manufacturers to open-source their drivers as the current situation is not much improved than it was in the old days of win modems...

[Stskeeps]

I'd argue that he cannot read properly (and that he purposefully edit quotes to say something that was not mentioned in the original post), just had a taste of that @ HERE (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=537951#post537951) :rolleyes: Why Stskeeps thanked him for that is beyond my comperhension, tho...


For this part:


Nokia did not claimed that N900 is on MeeGo train. Nokia said, to start with MeeGo developer should work it on QT4.6 which is a cross platform SDK that will work on MeeGo devices. But N900 is the only device that supporting QT4.6 right now. So start Developing applications on it for the future MeeGO.

[zwer]

Maybe the `MeeGo train` was a bad choice of words, but I'd consider what Quim Gil said (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=533778#post533778) to be an answer for many people approaching Nokia's floor at MWC to be pretty official.

[thecursedfly]

Not to be an a**hole.. :p but all i see is a serie of questions without answers, exactly what we had so far... ;)

of course it all depends on Nokia and their support for drivers and the Nokia applications... but it's what is more important to calm people down... we allready know MeeGo will be (completely) opensource and thus not stopping us (the gurus in these forums) from installing it on the N900 (like with android) in case we have the drivers...

did I miss something illuminating? :p

Of course, seeing how small the effort would be for nokia to support the N900 (apart from new hardware features), I believe it will happen; but in the end, we just have to wait and have some official statements/answers, and just stay quiet and calm until that happens.

[geneven]

I'm already not worried about it. But I expected to have Mer running on my N810 or N800 by now, and it's funny to get reassurance from the one in charge of that.

[southwalesboy]

why are people complaining! by the time a set of MeeGo handsets hits the market i'll only have 6months left on my contract anyways! enough time for MeeGo to come to fruit. And I can say with confidence that between now and that time i'd rather be using my n900 than any other device out there so whats the big problem?

the n900 is bleedin edge, bleedin edge doesnt last forever! this handset was always set to be defunct within a year, thats the nature of technology! Use it, be happy! then move on!

[Stskeeps]

I'm already not worried about it. But I expected to have Mer running on my N810 or N800 by now, and it's funny to get reassurance from the one in charge of that.

While this did make me feel at fault for this not happening, there were reasons for it.

On a personal sidenote, I managed to finish the software side of a research project, finish a master's degree in computer science, get married and move to Poland in the same time. And doing Mer for free. On the organisational sidenote, we were too ambitious and that harmed things (see mer-project.blogspot.com, the redshirt post).

We learnt a lot from the Mer project that makes things easier now both on N8x0 and in MeeGo. If you're wondering how smoother it could have been if we had been less ambitious (with the knowledge we have now), I just had Image Viewer from Fremantle X86 (no recompile for special Debian things) running on top of Debian 5.0+Fremantle base system in a VirtualBox. Coming sooner or later to a N8x0 near you. See http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=538242&postcount=101 for Mer^2 stuff.

A small teaser in that regard:

http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer2-imageviewer.png

But let us not turn this thread into a discussion about that - I'll gladly take it in another thread.

[fsantiago36]

This is a well thought out response to all the jitter and worrying that is going on out there since N900 just was released not long ago and now the thought of being terminated after spending over 500 bucks for it is really worrying many. Thanks for providing us with some insight of what the future looks like.

I have been a Nokia/Blackberry fan for many years. Nokia's have come a long way and the N900 is like the flagship with the integration of telephony. They will not kill it off that easy because it rivals a lot of things in the market. Its the new boom we needed in a cellphone. We will begin seeing some awesome things come from the community and Nokia in a joint effort to stay on top of marketshare and bring the company back into the spotlight and hopefully we will be there to see it all go down.

[daperl]

Worry: What a powerful emotion. But after the initial shock wears off, what a useless emotion. Just ask that dear you just hit. Or just ask that dude who suggested we stop filing bugs. Inaction worked for Gandhi because he represented the oppressed. Nokia is trying to do anything but. We're free men and women in a free software environment, idleness is how things die. Why some of you are here is beyond me, but if you're going to stay, get your emotions in check. And learn how to read.

[jeremiah]

Still, all this is speculation keepsie. You have no roadmap, no timeline, and very little concrete information to go on. How will it actually work? Will someone have to take packages like foo.rpm, turn them into a foo.deb, host them in some repo (public or private?), and rely on community support? If so, I think Debian Mobile might be a better option since they already have the infrastructure, security, and expertise to do something like this.

Some people from the Maemo community have already moved on and want to to start such a Debian Mobile project, it might be an excellent way to support the N900.

[ajflex]

Nokia MeeGo Announcment confrence at Once Bercalona
in according to nokia the nokia n900 will be get it

about march-june 2nd quarter 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SNafLSS4JQ

[russo_br]

(long text...).

Great post, based on solid arguments, thanks!!

Exactly what I am worried about is the drivers and close applications support for the N900. Ovi Maps is an example of one technology that Nokia is betting on and is set to be completed (turn-by-turn navigation) on Harmattan only. Even if Meego base OS source is completely open every device maker will have customizations and applications to differentiate itself from competitors.

From my point of view Nokia is marketing N900 as a pocket computer but supporting it like a standard phone. Computer users expect it to be upgradable with supplier support, and those who bought it as a mobile expect at least the same level of features Symbian has now (Ovi Maps, Ovi Suite and a lot of other simple phone features that seems "crude" now)

[Stskeeps]

Still, all this is speculation keepsie. You have no roadmap, no timeline, and very little concrete information to go on. How will it actually work? Will someone have to take packages like foo.rpm, turn them into a foo.deb, host them in some repo (public or private?), and rely on community support? If so, I think Debian Mobile might be a better option since they already have the infrastructure, security, and expertise to do something like this.


I'm not sure where RPM vs DEB debate came in all this. There is a problem with Nokia claiming M6 is a MeeGo instance I am wondering a bit about from a technical point of view. On packaging level it hardly isn't, but on API/ABI level it might be (Qt libs). I'm pro-Dual packaging as we need to support both M6 and MeeGo.

I might not have a roadmap, but the questions I end up asking is relevant no matter what they plan. The transformation from Nokia as a OS vendor to a hardware vendor amongst many others and their commitment. The belief in the ability of a community to produce a production mobile OS. The ability to code for M5, M6 -and- MeeGo using Qt. Will Nokia use the cross-platform APIs to bring their own services and differentiation to not-so-new devices.

Instead of forking over a packaging change, I choose participation and collaboration as I like the big picture and I understand the reasoning. Even though I don't know a shred of .spec. I talk to the people involved, the community guys, the developers - they see our point of view on many things and we try to seek out a compromise - and we're creating a common community together.

Instead of ".rpm is a dealbreaker" and splitting, duplicating efforts for no good reason.


Some people from the Maemo community have already moved on and want to to start such a Debian Mobile project, it might be an excellent way to support the N900.

And I'm helping those out as well (it's my duty and my job), even though I don't agree with forking over a packaging choice that makes a lot of sense from organisational and toolset point of view. I don't agree with Gentoo or for that sakes raw Debian on N8x0 either, but I try to work with them as well.

[nhanquy]

Okay, Listen very carefully I shall say this only once.

...

I work on bringing Maemo 5.0 to Nokia N800, N810(W).

....



History will repeat itself. Someone here claimed N8x0 bugs on Maemo 4.0 will be fixed in 5.0; and then N810 is not supported in 5.0.

I own more than one N810s and more than one N800s. But I don't have a single N900. I skip the N900 because Nokia did not have N8x0 supported in 5.0.

I think 6.0 won't support N900 as 5.0 did not support N8x0.

[Stskeeps]

I think 6.0 won't support N900 as 5.0 did not support N8x0.

It is also the curse of having a OS vendor and HW vendor in one. This is what is getting seperated in MeeGo and what I've petitioned for, for a long time in Mer.

[lfcobra]

Nokia MeeGo Announcment confrence at Once Bercalona
in according to nokia the nokia n900 will be get it

about march-june 2nd quarter 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SNafLSS4JQ

Could you specify the time during the video when they directly say this? I watched the entire thing and the only thing I heard them say was that QT applications developed on the n900 would be "forward compatible" with future devices.

[Texrat]

I'm discouraged by people complaining about the length of this... but that's a societal rant for another time and place.

What I'm encouraged by is the message, and the number of Thanks by people with no problem reading it through.

[Matan]

It is also the curse of having a OS vendor and HW vendor in one. This is what is getting seperated in MeeGo and what I've petitioned for, for a long time in Mer.

It is pretend separation, rather than real separation, so it will not change anything.

Will free meego be able to make a phone call on N900 successor, or will it depend on some binary only user space program from Nokia?

Will free meego be able to use GPS on N900 successor, or will it depend on some binary only user space program from Nokia?

Will free meego be able to charge the battery on N900 successor, or will it depend on some binary only user space program from Nokia?

Nokia will probably provide "free drivers" as we have now the phonet driver and used to have retu and tahvo drivers, but will we be able to actually use them?

In short, will there be any difference between the current state and the future state?

[rulsky]

Posts like this one is what we need to clear all doubts....How come we don't have more mods or people from Nokia post more often?

HIGH FIVE....:D

[Stskeeps]

Posts like this one is what we need to clear all doubts....How come we don't have more mods or people from Nokia post more often?

HIGH FIVE....:D

They do but they often get lost in all the noise or people don't get the bigger picture..

[tso]

so is this a hint that mer will become meego for "legacy" devices?

i'm glad my n800 has two sd slots, as it sounds like i will be dedicating one to mer in the near future ;)

[Stskeeps]

so is this a hint that mer will become meego for "legacy" devices?

i'm glad my n800 has two sd slots, as it sounds like i will be dedicating one to mer in the near future ;)

Not saying that in my post, but:

If MeeGo base system works on N8x0, we can use experiences from Mer^2 to provide a non-GL desktop on N8x0. But there's a lot of doubt regarding mobile widget set etc and dependency on GL and so on..

[dbrodie]

I think the whole discussion around this is ignoring the huge elephant in the room. I know I have not been really active in the community, but I am ecstatic about a phone that most things is simply a recompile away (and I have ported a number of simple console tools I use etc... and I will try to push them to extras).

The thing is, it doesn't really matter if maemo6 the OS can run the n900 by the help of nokia or by the community's effort. Of course the work would be greatly appreciated and it seems that nokia is moving to a more open source method so that can help. But the whole platform as a whole will become irrelevant!

As far as I can understand from the security framework (http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_security) the whole framework for the Ovi Store will completely be dependent on the TrustZone DRM (like the iPhone) where each app is encrypted specifically for your phone (And so on).

OK, so now for the big question, how will we run these apps on the n900? As far as I can see we wont be able to! That means that even if Nokia ports Maemo 6 and supports it for years to come we wont be able to buy any of the apps for it. So it doesn't really matter. What use is a platform if non of the apps for it will be available.

For me I probably wont mind, I'll just keep on using extras, and I am very happy with my n900, but for people who want it for the apps will probably not get a working Ovi Store anytime soon for the n900...

[Eric G]

This whole development is great for me... I got a phone and they threw in a soap opera for free!

First the announcement of the N900 and Maemo 6 with no mention of the N900 running 6.

Then, the fun of waiting for the darn thing to actually get shipped.

Now, a major plot twist every bit as jarring as "Luke, I'm your father."

What's not to like? An interesting phone and hours of enjoyment!

[harp]

My only concern is how involved Nokia is going to be in getting MeeGo on the N900. Nokia sold the N900 with a lot of promises and I don't want them to just say, Oh well, let the community handle it now. I want active Nokia support in the transition to MeeGo and I don't think that's a lot to ask for.

[ajflex]

Could you specify the time during the video when they directly say this? I watched the entire thing and the only thing I heard them say was that QT applications developed on the n900 would be "forward compatible" with future devices.


if you where to listen keenly clean your hears properly you would hear what have been said same for many of you stop complaining
start with existing nokia n900 and moblin os devices that existing willl get it first laptop tv will get 2nd quarter


same kernel used in moblin and maemo 6 =meego

qt 4.6 willl make Symbian and me-ego or (maemo6) will be easier to create the same game and application
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SNafLSS4JQ
but n900 will be getting me-ego os

time fine tuned is 11:00-11:40 talk about Symbian and me-ego os and the future in terms of Nokia n900 me-ego os

q&a will n900 get the me-ego os
15:42-17:02

[ossipena]

Moot points, all of them. When Nokia release their brand new and funky N950 (or whatever) with Maemo 6, I expect 99% of us will purchase one and forget about the N900.
I claim that majority of the people who bought N900 are persons whose lifecycle of smartphone or similar gadget is about 12 months. for me there is only one addition: there has to be better new device.

so if n950 doesnt have dealbreakers for me, n900 will probably stay at box and is taken out approx. twice per month or I'll give it to somebody with nominal price.

[lfcobra]

if you where to listen keenly clean your hears properly you would hear what have been said same for many of you stop complaining
start with existing nokia n900 and moblin os devices that existing willl get it first laptop tv will get 2nd quarter


same kernel used in moblin and maemo 6 =meego

qt 4.6 willl make Symbian and me-ego or (maemo6) will be easier to create the same game and application
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SNafLSS4JQ
but n900 will be getting me-ego os

time fine tuned is 11:00-11:40 talk about Symbian and me-ego os and the future in terms of Nokia n900 me-ego os

q&a will n900 get the me-ego os
15:42-17:02

i'm sorry, i wasnt complaining about anything. I simply wanted a time index in the video relating to your posted claim about Nokia officially porting meego to the n900. And they never directly say "N900 will get MeeGo." What he says is "This is the evolution of where maemo has been going.
And i think you should look at this as the n900 the way that structure(?) is going. And thats the direction we see the meego being the perfect platform for." I think what he is saying is that going open source and embracing the open source community the way maemo has is what meego will also do. I dont really think he means n900 will get meego, but only time will tell.

[u2maemo]

Thanks Stskeeps for this clear explanation.
Through your and others's efforts, I think seperated mobile os will be at near future.

I also hope Nokia can directly uncover their plan but not leave this nokia's duty to Stskeeps.

Stskeeps, you are great, you are important to our nokia device users and nokia's future.

[mlb]

having heard presentation with Nokia and Intel I am pretty sure that MeeGo is targeted at future Intel-based hardware and they are trying to attract devedlopers to build apps for that future platform.. N900 is not Intel based so I still do not see reson why it would be supported. Nokia apparently changed plans and decided to cooperate with Intel to build better hardware, thenthe missing bit - the software - they expect to get mostly from open source community. So another good reason why to abandon N900 support.

[Stskeeps]

having heard presentation with Nokia and Intel I am pretty sure that MeeGo is targeted at future Intel-based hardware and they are trying to attract devedlopers to build apps for that future platform.. N900 is not Intel based so I still do not see reson why it would be supported. Nokia apparently changed plans and decided to cooperate with Intel to build better hardware, thenthe missing bit - the software - they expect to get mostly from open source community. So another good reason why to abandon N900 support.

Why even bothering doing ARM support (http://wiki.meego.com/ARM_Support) then if their plans are so devious and cunning?

[anonym]

Stskeeps,
I really wanted to be persuaded by this post, but I don't feel reassured at all. Let's go through the list of questions you say we should be asking:



Will Nokia as a hardware vendor continue to provide drivers for N900 for MeeGo and Maemo 6? (Will they devote resources to do this or help community to do this themselves)



This seems to be an unkown. If Nokia would explicitly pledge long term driver support, I'd feel a little better.



Do you trust that the community is capable of producing a production quality MeeGo or Maemo 6 for N900, if it had technical assistance by Nokia for driver issues? And would you use it?



Production quality? I have my doubts... It certainly won't be possible if Nokia doesn't provide all the drivers, right? In any case, if the community can make MeeGo run on N900, doesn't that prove beyond all doubt that Nokia could have done it themselves? It sure feels like they're dropping support to save on development costs and force hardware upgrades. This isn't just an annoyance to N900 users, it's also a terrible idea from a business perspective -- this is no way to build momentum and loyalty for the platform.



Will applications coded for MeeGo/Maemo6 be possible to build for Maemo5 with little effort?



I'm sure they will. Does that justify package-incompatibility between Maemo 5 and Harmattan? They've done this with every Maemo major release, and it needs to stop. What kind of "platform" requires every package to be modified/rebuilt for each significant OS revision? Certainly none of the desktop OSs, and not the iPhone. As someone said on Ari's blog comments, "It's going to take a long time to catch up to the iPhone's 140,000 apps if our total keeps getting reset back to zero every 6-18 months. The best way to obtain lasting user- and developer-loyalty is through platform stability and long-term support."



Will Nokia be using the cross-platformness of MeeGo APIs to bring their software stack to all Nokia devices running the MeeGo platform (community or vendor-originated)?



Ari already said that OVI maps navigation isn't coming to N900. Maybe it could work via a community port of MeeGo, but Nokia won't be making any effort to ensure that it does.

Are my concerns all invalid? Please, I sincerely want to be convinced, but as it stands I just can't see buying another Nokia.

[felbutss]

I agree. with you on this one.

way to many if's about his issue. it sound like something that nokia should be doing. RIP maemo 5, it could only last through ONE device lol crazy. MeeGo is for the mass market and different phone/ electronic devices. it will get all the support and attention.

history will repeat itself on this one. RIP n900

I will love to be proved wrong, But nokia is very quiet about everything n900 lately, i'm not sure whats going on.




Stskeeps,
I really wanted to be persuaded by this post, but I don't feel reassured at all. Let's go through the list of questions you say we should be asking:



This seems to be an unkown. If Nokia would explicitly pledge long term driver support, I'd feel a little better.



Production quality? I have my doubts... It certainly won't be possible if Nokia doesn't provide all the drivers, right? In any case, if the community can make MeeGo run on N900, doesn't that prove beyond all doubt that Nokia could have done it themselves? It sure feels like they're dropping support to save on development costs and force hardware upgrades. This isn't just an annoyance to N900 users, it's also a terrible idea from a business perspective -- this is no way to build momentum and loyalty for the platform.



I'm sure they will. Does that justify package-incompatibility between Maemo 5 and Harmattan? They've done this with every Maemo major release, and it needs to stop. What kind of "platform" requires every package to be modified/rebuilt for each significant OS revision? Certainly none of the desktop OSs, and not the iPhone. As someone said on Ari's blog comments, "It's going to take a long time to catch up to the iPhone's 140,000 apps if our total keeps getting reset back to zero every 6-18 months. The best way to obtain lasting user- and developer-loyalty is through platform stability and long-term support."



Ari already said that OVI maps navigation isn't coming to N900. Maybe it could work via a community port of MeeGo, but Nokia won't be making any effort to ensure that it does.

Are my concerns all invalid? Please, I sincerely want to be convinced, but as it stands I just can't see buying another Nokia.

[Frappacino]

nokia's silence says everything you need to know

naive to think otherwise

[Laughing Man]

I'm sure they will. Does that justify package-incompatibility between Maemo 5 and Harmattan? They've done this with every Maemo major release, and it needs to stop. What kind of "platform" requires every package to be modified/rebuilt for each significant OS revision? Certainly none of the desktop OSs, and not the iPhone. As someone said on Ari's blog comments, "It's going to take a long time to catch up to the iPhone's 140,000 apps if our total keeps getting reset back to zero every 6-18 months. The best way to obtain lasting user- and developer-loyalty is through platform stability and long-term support."


It seems to me that the QT cross-compatibility is the solution to the breaks in library support between every previous Maemo device.

[Stskeeps]

Stskeeps,
Are my concerns all invalid? Please, I sincerely want to be convinced, but as it stands I just can't see buying another Nokia.

Nop, my post says you're beating the wrong horses and you need to be asking these questions instead as they are far more important and precise for your device future.

I'm not worried because we have a strong community and a flexible hardware vendor. Far more flexible than other vendors in this regard. And add on top of that, that Fremantle will have a long lifetime as well.

[TheLongshot]

First off, let me make a statement: The prospect that Hartmann might not be supported by Nokia on the N900 is something that was well known to the community before. That situation has not changed with the MeeGo announcement. Yet, many of us bought in despite that potential cloud over our heads. The question is, what were those reasons, and what has changed now to make you want to jump ship?

I bought in because it was exactly the phone I was looking for: more computer than phone. And I've been quite happy with it, even with its flaws. Even if Nokia ended support for it tomorrow, I'd be fine with it. I know some of you out there with 770s, 800s and 810s aren't treating those like bricks. They still have use for those who own them.

I'm more reassured by the QT support that will happen with both OSs, because it means that applications can cross-pollinate at the very least.

[davbost]

Yet another post makes me wish there were a 'double-thanks' button. :p

And a free prize to go along with it. Thanks again for the post!:)

[mmurfin87]

Next question is for yourself:
Do you trust that the community is capable of producing a production quality MeeGo or Maemo 6 for N900, if it had technical assistance by Nokia for driver issues? And would you use it?

I have to say no, I don't believe this. Sure free software gets developed and some of it is ok or even good. Its a fact of history though, that if organizaiton A develops software with no expectation of money and organization B develops the software with a business model in mind, company B will always develop better software.

Will MeeGo be available for the n900? Sure, I believe something approaching Meego will someday grace the n900. Will it be as good? Not until about the same time as MeeGo 3 is on store shelves (or in phones).

[anonym]

what has changed now to make you want to jump ship?

When I bought my N900, I assumed it would at least be supported by Maemo 6, if not 7. It was probably already suspected by some that Nokia wouldn't take it beyond Fremantle, but I was unaware.


I bought in because it was exactly the phone I was looking for: more computer than phone. And I've been quite happy with it, even with its flaws. Even if Nokia ended support for it tomorrow, I'd be fine with it. I know some of you out there with 770s, 800s and 810s aren't treating those like bricks. They still have use for those who own them.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that being unable to run the latest OS renders my device useless, and I've been very happy with my N900 so far. But I've been using Maemo since the 770, and I'm tired of Nokia's habit of dropping support for still-young hardware which would be perfectly capable of running the latest software. I'd be feeling the same way about the lack of N900 support in Harmattan even if there was no MeeGo merger. I'm holding onto my N900 for now, and I may well get a MeeGo phone in a couple years -- it just won't be a Nokia. Six months of software support for a €650 device is unacceptable to me.

[GeneralAntilles]

I have to say no, I don't believe this. Sure free software gets developed and some of it is ok or even good. Its a fact of history though, that if organizaiton A develops software with no expectation of money and organization B develops the software with a business model in mind, company B will always develop better software.


Mind sourcing this claim? :)

[felbutss]

First off, let me make a statement: The prospect that Hartmann might not be supported by Nokia on the N900 is something that was well known to the community before. That situation has not changed with the MeeGo announcement. Yet, many of us bought in despite that potential cloud over our heads. The question is, what were those reasons, and what has changed now to make you want to jump ship?

I bought in because it was exactly the phone I was looking for: more computer than phone. And I've been quite happy with it, even with its flaws. Even if Nokia ended support for it tomorrow, I'd be fine with it. I know some of you out there with 770s, 800s and 810s aren't treating those like bricks. They still have use for those who own them.

I'm more reassured by the QT support that will happen with both OSs, because it means that applications can cross-pollinate at the very least.




lol the N900 is the ONLY Maemo 5 device. THE ONLY ONE EVER.

this means all the little gritty things people create for it like hacks tricks tutorials will slow down dramaticcly as soon as MeeGo is released with a device. Maemo label will be forgotten along with the n900 project. I like to be part of a community with the device not on my own while a lot of people will be embrassin the next MeeGo device. a perfict example is the iphone OS which is the same on all their devices. i dont like iphones personlly and will never want to own one but the community is that massive once you jailbreak it there is an app/hack/slat you name it for everything. my friend even got an app which has the same multitasking window as the N900??? lol wdf didnt see that happening (after a jailbreak, apps in cydia).

i had a feeling from the start the n900 will not get maemo 6 but that has changed. now maemo 6 has become MeeGo with intels merger and will be used for many devices not just phones. this means the maemo 5 is over and done. that is a big change from just an OS upgrade. we are beta testers once again for a buggy device all round. the slider is scratching my device, i have a bright spot, when i tap the screen it creaks and god forbid my usb port comes out. software wise dont get me started, i cant belive exchange support still doesnt work for me. over it. reminds me of when i got my N95. this is going to come out wrong but nokia owe us for all these reasons. the n900 was supposed to be a saviour but its not looking that way. its just another beta test for the next device. u watch and tell me i was wrong when everything goes to sh*t. this isnt about QT, QT is great but not enough to fix maemo 5.

I think the issue has become nokia is aware most of the n900 community has been fighting over this and might just need to release a statement for us with a definitive answer. This fear of missing out is human nature, no one wants to be on the sidelines. To much beating around the bush from nokia.


One last thing. when nokia were developing Maemo5 and the N900, the plans for a merger were most likely happening during the development stage of the device. So it is very unlucky that we got maemo5 and no one else will. Another situation I would like is if nokia just abandon Maemo5 and give the MeeGo OS to the N900. maybe even the N810, N800 and N770 after all its a multiple device OS platform.

[zwer]

Its a fact of history though, that if organizaiton A develops software with no expectation of money and organization B develops the software with a business model in mind, company B will always develop better software.

Right you are, just look at how much better is the IIS compared to the Apache, it's clear that Apache is on its deathbed. Not to mention how TCP/IP, HTTP and the web itself are clearly way more sucky than all those proprietary BBSes...

[anonym]

Nop, my post says you're beating the wrong horses and you need to be asking these questions instead as they are far more important and precise for your device future.


I'm legitimately wondering about the answers to those questions, and the fact that the answers remain unknown is frustrating to me. I wouldn't say worrisome, because I do like my N900 as is... I was just expecting it to get at least the measly year of support that the 770 saw. Nokia has abandoned every Maemo device before its time, while Apple is still supporting the original iPhone with the latest OS. I'm not about to buy an iPhone though, so it's great MeeGo and Android are open. I can just move to another manufacturer with longer-term support in a couple years. Until then, I'll enjoy my N900 and hope that the optimists are right about the new apps MeeGo will bring to Maemo 5.

[illemann]

Executive summary, my way;

Stop nagging and help debugging. Dont worry about the future or money. Thats why its called open source. Have some patience, be constructive, try to help ( we all need help, even a proffessional ). _Almost_ everything can be solved, its just a matter of compiling.

[mlb]

Six months of software support for a €650 device is unacceptable to me.

That's the core of problem here. Nokia advertised N900 as real breakthrough in mobile devices and once they got some revenue out of it, they said something like "oops, Maemo 5 and N900 was mistake. From now on we will do it better, with Intel.. Sorry, N900 users..."

Where am I wrong at that thinking?

[felbutss]

That's the core of problem here. Nokia advertised N900 as real breakthrough in mobile devices and once they got some revenue out of it, they said something like "oops, Maemo 5 and N900 was mistake. From now on we will do it better, with Intel.. Sorry, N900 users..."

Where am I wrong at that thinking?



dont care what anyone says your right. N900 and maemo 5 was a beta test for nokia. they better at least fix ALL the bugs before they stop updating it.

[Stskeeps]

Six months of software support for a €650 device is unacceptable to me.

I thought there would be longer software support than that? I might have dreamed it, but the behaviour of the updates are much different from the way Diablo was, which points to it..

[mlb]

Wrong. Updates availability should at least cover warranty period.

[ogre]

I have not read the entire thread, however would like to add some comments.

As Stskeeps has said, the support community will provide Meego on the n900. Nokia has effectively confirmed that they will ensure this is happens. Nokia are acutally appear undecided about releasing and supporting such an update through Nokia.

So if you have an N900, and enough enthusiasm to load a community distribution, meego WILL be available.

So the question is, are the any drawbacks to having a communty distribution should Nokia not change from current posistion and support the OS?

And yes there are.
1. Have a problem you n900? Well, if you don't restore Maemo5 you may not get warrantee service.

2. Less n900 owners will update to meego than would if it came as a Nokia upgrade, fragmenting the user base- which is not an issue if app software providers nave no n900 specific considerations to consider at all.

Community distros and the support community around the n900 and following devices being a something beyond and iPhone or other relatively closed devices. However.....



First off, let's look at our raw material - the N900. You see a cellphone. It requires updates from vendor to get new features, it will stop getting updates when vendor stops caring and there's nothing we can do about it.

Instead, I see a mobile computer. Remember your PC? The same way you could install Vista on your PC or XP or even Ubuntu or other crazy operating systems, this is possible on your N900 - you do not have to rely on your hardware vendor to provide a OS for your device.

I suggest nokia have not fully made the adjustment from cellphone to mobile computer themselves. Yet anyway. I do hope they will.

With a cellphone which is an appliance, upgrading to a new OS is not a mainstream idea. However, with a computer, one expects that a new OS released, say six months after the computer being introduced, will be supported. Not just available as a community distribution, but supported.
I suggest the difference is like paying for redhat support, but then finding a new release comes out and you have to move to CENTOS.

What I hope is that Nokia changes what they have done in the past for cellphones and for these mobile computers offers new OS version support for ...something like 18months.....even if there is an extra fee attached if you accept that option.

With cellphones, the ability to run apps released even after you purchases the device was not something you should expect. I suggest with mobile computers it IS something you should expect.

Otherwise, closed devices like the iPhone where availability of OS updates is expected seem to be more in touch with the mobile computer concept than Nokia is, and that would be sad.

The availability of the community and open source should take the n900 and subsequent devices to another level. The future success shouldn't be damaged by not complimenting community support with Nokia's own support where appropriate.

[lma]

I thought there would be longer software support than that? I might have dreamed it, but the behaviour of the updates are much different from the way Diablo was, which points to it..

I think it's too early to tell. Maemo 4[1] got 5 updates (not counting beta and minor updates, sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maemo#Release_history, http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N810.php, http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N800.php) over a 13-month period[2].

We are now in the 3rd to 5th month (depending on how you count) since Maemo 5 reached users and have had one major update (and a couple of minor ones) with a second major update imminent. Some bugzilla comments (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6394#c5) already indicate that there is also going to be at least a "PR1.3" update, but nothing is known beyond that.

[1] I think counting Chinook and Diablo together for this is appropriate, YMMV.
[2] Which in itself is fine. My major gripe is that Nokia never came out and said that 43-7 was the final update, if they had we could have started working on community updates over a year ago.

[mlb]

So the question is, are the any drawbacks to having a communty distribution should Nokia not change from current posistion and support the OS?


Unfortunately there are. Do not get me wrong, I love open source - but in case of commercial product liability is still on Nokia shoulders.
Is N900 hardware totally immune to programming errors? What happens if device is irrecoverably broken within warranty period so oryginal software cannot be restored? That's the reason it is important that Nokia assures compatibility with MeeGo, not community.
And so here is my concern why Nokia keeps silent about it and even more: trying to drag community developers to new platform so the chances to have dynamic community around N900 are even lower.

[ogre]

And so here is my concern why Nokia keeps silent about it and even more: trying to drag community developers to new platform so the chances to have dynamic community around N900 are even lower.

All agreed except Nokia are not silent about it.

The official stance is that that n900 is a Maemo 5 device. The community may release new software and Nokia may assist, but the n900 is officially a Maemo 5 device and Nokia has no had no plan for Maemo6 of any new OS. Meego is not the change.
The implication is that all devices are released with an OS version and there may be patches that are consider fixes to the original version- there are no upgrades. The idea a device is a device where support is to be officially forever linked to a specific OS is i suggest an appliance mentallity no longer relevant with 'mobile computers'.

[tso]

With a cellphone which is an appliance, upgrading to a new OS is not a mainstream idea. However, with a computer, one expects that a new OS released, say six months after the computer being introduced, will be supported. Not just available as a community distribution, but supported.
I suggest the difference is like paying for redhat support, but then finding a new release comes out and you have to move to CENTOS.
I dont think that there are that many outside of the geek groups that actually know that that the os is separate from the hardware. I would guess that microsoft makes most of its windows sales from oem licenses.

also, be it computer or phone, the first thought of most users when something breaks (as long as its a work supplied device) is to call the brand on the case, be it nokia, dell or whatever.

[GeneralAntilles]

We are now in the 3rd to 5th month (depending on how you count) since Maemo 5 reached users and have had one major update (and a couple of minor ones) with a second major update imminent. Some bugzilla comments (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6394#c5) already indicate that there is also going to be at least a "PR1.3" update, but nothing is known beyond that.


PR2 has also been mentioned once or twice.

[lma]

PR2 has also been mentioned once or twice.

Any pointers? http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Amaemo.org+PR2 comes up with nothing relevant...

[GeneralAntilles]

Any pointers? http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Amaemo.org+PR2 comes up with nothing relevant...

Probably in the #maemo logs somewhere.

[Crashdamage]

Nokia advertised N900 as real breakthrough in mobile devices...
It is. There's nothing else quite like it. Or any other mobile OS like Maemo/MeeGo.

...and once they got some revenue out of it, they said something like "oops, Maemo 5 and N900 was mistake.
No, they (Jaaski, actually) said:
"We will absolutely not forget N900 users and developers...If you are an N900 owner (or an owner wannabee) this is all good for you...All the MeeGo and Qt momentum will give you many more interesting applications to run on N900. Now and in the future."

That doesn't sound like 'Oops, the N900/Maemo is crap, you're outta luck' to me. Sounds more like 'If you have a N900 you're good to go for quite a while. in fact, we think the N900/Maemo is such an awesome start that 2 of the biggest companies in the world have partnered up and bet the farm that MeeGo can be the dominant OS for high-end mobile devices in the future.'

From now on we will do it better, with Intel.. Sorry, N900 users..."
So you're against progress? You would rather they didn't do it better?

Where am I wrong at that thinking?
Everywhere.

[Crashdamage]

...they better at least fix ALL the bugs before they stop updating it.
A totally unrealistic statement if I ever heard one. Have you ever used any device or software 1/10 as complicated as the N900/Maemo that ever had ALL the bugs fixed?

Go ahead...name one...

[tso]

A totally unrealistic statement if I ever heard one. Have you ever used any device or software 1/10 as complicated as the N900/Maemo that ever had ALL the bugs fixed?

Go ahead...name one...

nope, but i have seen at least one that got bugs introduced at the last update before abandonment...

[lma]

Probably in the #maemo logs somewhere.

Nope, http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Amg.pov.lt+%23maemo+pr2 just gives a recursive

* GeneralAntilles has heard rumors of a PR2 and PR3, even.

Let's say that for the time being we've only heard about PR1.3 with any degree of certainty.

[GeneralAntilles]

Let's say that for the time being we've only heard about PR1.3 with any degree of certainty.

Let's just say I trust my sources. :)

[mlb]

That doesn't sound like 'Oops, the N900/Maemo is crap, you're outta luck' to me. Sounds more like 'If you have a N900 you're good to go for quite a while.

It really sounds like wishful thinking - unless you are authorised to speak for Nokia.

[Crashdamage]

It really sounds like wishful thinking - unless you are authorised to speak for Nokia.
Of course I'm not. I've just paid some attention to what has actually been said by those who know :

a. Real Intel and Nokia reps like qgil, Jaaski, etc. etc,
b. People in the Maemo community actually in communication with Nokia and involved in development like the OP of this thread, and...
c. "2 of the biggest companies in the world (who) have partnered up and bet the farm that MeeGo can be the dominant OS for high-end mobile devices in the future."

I took all that, applied a little common sense and decided I'll take their word for what the truth is over blind speculation by chronically depressed naysayers until I see some real evidence otherwise. So far, I don't. My N900 works great, is about to get it's 4th OTA update in 3 months, Maemo lives on bigger and better as MeeGo and I'm all smiles.

[danielpublic]

It really sounds like wishful thinking - unless you are authorised to speak for Nokia. As already stated in the OP and besides what Crashdamage said, the N900 is a computer that somehow justed got banged up with a phone in the manufacturing process.

If you understand that, then you see there is no need for worries of that kind. Since we got drivers and a nice warm and fussy carebear community right here :3

For anyone else who want to learn what linux how it works and is all about, I recommend installing gentoo or arch on a SPARE computer and have fun! :D

Then you see the potential freedom which the N900 has AND understand that:

1: " I can do so much stuff with thiss computer/phone"
2: " Reach out to the community and we WILL be there and have all the lovin for all of ours N900 "

[mlb]

As already stated in the OP and besides what Crashdamage said, the N900 is a computer that somehow justed got banged up with a phone in the manufacturing process.

If you understand that, then you see there is no need for worries of that kind. Since we got drivers and a nice warm and fussy carebear community right here :3


Of course N900 is very flexible and this great community can empower it with tons of useful software.
However - look at that from commercial point of view: What makes N900 attractive to potential buyers? Open source community? I do not think so. It is important for current users, but not as guarantee of product robustness and lifetime support. And so for 3rd party software vendors.

My point is: lack of Nokia statement of long time support for N900 seriously weakens product placement on the market, both from potential users and 3rd party software vendors point of view. I do not believe in success of N900 if based *only* on open source solutions. I do believe in success of blended open source and commercial apps platform - but here Nokia does not seem to be excited, they'd rather go for MeeGo yet without guarantee of backward compatibility with N900.

[TheLongshot]

lol the N900 is the ONLY Maemo 5 device. THE ONLY ONE EVER.

Was there anything in Nokia's past history of in talk about the future that it would be otherwise? The nice thing about the MeeGo deal is that it might actually break that pattern. It might not benefit N900 users directly, but it will help indirectly at the very least.

i had a feeling from the start the n900 will not get maemo 6 but that has changed. now maemo 6 has become MeeGo with intels merger and will be used for many devices not just phones. this means the maemo 5 is over and done.

Again, nothing has really changed, other than the future of the next generation OS is going to be brighter. Personally, that's good news overall. While it falls short of saying "M6 will be on the N900" (which you weren't expecting anyways), you do get that both OSs will have the new QT libraries on it, which means there can be a lot of cross-development at the minimum.

that is a big change from just an OS upgrade. we are beta testers once again for a buggy device all round. the slider is scratching my device, i have a bright spot, when i tap the screen it creaks and god forbid my usb port comes out. software wise dont get me started, i cant belive exchange support still doesnt work for me. over it. reminds me of when i got my N95. this is going to come out wrong but nokia owe us for all these reasons. the n900 was supposed to be a saviour but its not looking that way. its just another beta test for the next device. u watch and tell me i was wrong when everything goes to sh*t. this isnt about QT, QT is great but not enough to fix maemo 5.

I don't know what any of this has to do with hardware issues. Personally, I have none.

I think the issue has become nokia is aware most of the n900 community has been fighting over this and might just need to release a statement for us with a definitive answer. This fear of missing out is human nature, no one wants to be on the sidelines. To much beating around the bush from nokia.

Assuming that Nokia has a definitive answer to give at this point. M6/Meego might not be locked down as far as features goes. This agreement might reinforce that view with the integration and compatibility with Moblin.

This isn't unique to Nokia. There are certain Android phones (Cliq, G1) where there were questions if and when updates to their OSs would happen. At the very least, we know one update will happen and there will at least be another.

One last thing. when nokia were developing Maemo5 and the N900, the plans for a merger were most likely happening during the development stage of the device. So it is very unlucky that we got maemo5 and no one else will. Another situation I would like is if nokia just abandon Maemo5 and give the MeeGo OS to the N900. maybe even the N810, N800 and N770 after all its a multiple device OS platform.

I think really it is a question of hardware, since I think the reasoning Nokia didn't make versions for the N810 and N800 was because they didn't have the juice to run the OS. Maybe that's one of the things the OP ran into with Mer. (I haven't read up onto the whys about how they were being too aggressive.)

I'm not going to stress over the waiting to see if Nokia is going to give us Meego or not for the device. Personally, I enjoy using it. In the meantime, I hope that between the user community and Nokia that eventually all the flaws will be addressed in one way or another.

[lma]

lthe N900 is the ONLY Maemo 5 device. THE ONLY ONE EVER.

We can't know that yet, and besides I can beat it easily: the 770 was the only Maemo 1 / Maemo 2 device ever :-)

Anyway, sorry for getting the discussion sidetracked. I just tried to say that the publicly available information at the moment doesn't say whether Maemo 5 will get longer official support, though I remain cautiously optimistic.

[luca]

No, they (Jaaski, actually) said:
"We will absolutely not forget N900 users and developers...If you are an N900 owner (or an owner wannabee) this is all good for you...All the MeeGo and Qt momentum will give you many more interesting applications to run on N900. Now and in the future."

That doesn't sound like 'Oops, the N900/Maemo is crap, you're outta luck' to me.

Actually it does, if you translate from marketspeak to plain english ;)

[Stskeeps]

b. People in the Maemo community actually in communication with Nokia and involved in development like the OP of this thread, and...


Just the usual disclaimer: I do not speak for Nokia (and frankly I'm happy I don't have that responsibility), maemo.org (that's council's job) or the angry monkey in my closet. My opinions are my own and I only know what I said in the OP based on experience and what information is actually out. I don't know the future of MeeGo or the N900, but I know that instead of worrying, it's better to help create the future ! :)

[anonym]

I don't know the future of MeeGo or the N900, but I know that instead of worrying, it's better to help create the future ! :)

Agreed.

If you're really unhappy with your N900's current functionality and are convinced it's not going to improve, maybe you should sell it. But If you do like your N900 (as most people here seem to), the lack of Harmattan support should only affect your opinion of Nokia, not of the hardware you already payed for. Like I said in my last post, I'm really not worried because I already have the best phone currently on the market for my uses, and I'm sure it will still get better, even without Harmattan/MeeGo. At the same time, I really do care about long term support, so this will probably be my last device from Nokia (unless they change their plans for the N900). I'm just happy that boycotting Nokia will no longer restrict my choice of platform. We're FREE!

With multiple open alternatives to the iPhone on the market (read: MeeGo and Android), everyone wins! Well, everyone except Apple. :D

edit: Sorry, I guess I'm kind of repeating what I said in my last post, but it's a long thread and I wanted to reply to the recent arrivals.

[maxximuscool]

Just stop worrying and start living guys. Enjoy the last juice of the N900 while you still can. :-)

[sygys]

LOL im not worrying about the drivers for MeeGo! There arent even freaking descent drivers for the front camera on maemo 5!

Offcourse meego will be ported somehow by the community and sure nokia let them. the only reason they do that is because they are to darn lazy to make a device wich atleast has all it functions working in the first place!

Im just getting tired of the unfinished glitching devices that nokia keeps releasing and releasing. most of the time needing 10 firmware updates before something finnaly works descent. Its not only the n900.

The n900 is an awsome device i really love it. And the community making all this worth keep using the n900 too. its only to bad nokia has a finger on it!

[abbra]

LOL im not worrying about the drivers for MeeGo! There arent even freaking descent drivers for the front camera on maemo 5!

If this is about quality of output, it is far from drivers' fault. Camera module is mediocre at best by itself and you would need to apply same enhancements algorithms as we do for main camera, except that it needs different tuning parameters. PR1.2 will show how much is possible.

Most if not all applications in extras that tried to use front camera, were ignoring quality enhancements suggestions. Basically, nobody even runs enhancement processing with front camera, it is quite visible in Mirror application, for example. Even simple noise reduction would improve things though for better quality more advanced algorithms are needed.

[felbutss]

??????????????????????????

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=45402

[attila77]

Most if not all applications in extras that tried to use front camera, were ignoring quality enhancements suggestions.

Wha ? What suggestions ? Where ? :) We're just using gstreamer. Now, I know that the proper way is to insert a noise-reduction element, but it IS a bit of an overkill to make your own if you just want to enable the camera. I did try hooking into the main cam's postprocessing elements, but results weren't that good - as you probably say, due to the different (some hardcoded) parameters (more docs on the Nokia gstreamer elements certainly WOULD help). For reference, I'm the guy who wrote the Mirror app :)

[nappleton]

Moot points, all of them. When Nokia release their brand new and funky N950 (or whatever) with Maemo 6, I expect 99% of us will purchase one and forget about the N900.

:0( I can't to just up and buy a the new nokia n950 i'm tied into a contract for 18 months. There is alot about the phone and it's function as a phone that i was hoping over time would be fixed in updates does that mean its unlikely now?

If i have the option to switch this phone as i'm only 10 days into my contract and having masses of problems with freezes and rebooting should i get rid of it now for the htc touch pro 2?

Bearing in mind now matter how much i love this phone when it works lol i'm not a massively tech minded person and in the event nokia stops supporting it i will never be capable of running programes via the comp onto the phone if you see what i mean i can only just about handle downloaded programes/updates and apps from the phones app manager section.

[Stskeeps]

If i have the option to switch this phone as i'm only 10 days into my contract and having masses of problems with freezes and rebooting should i get rid of it now for the htc touch pro 2?

If you have a reboot issue, upgrade to PR1.1.1 or send it in for repair. It is not normal.

[chall3ng3r]

Thanks for posting quite informative article.

Looking forward for MeeGo running on my N900 :)

// chall3ng3r //

[REMFwhoopitydo]

thanks Stskeeps.

[ashyk36]

can someone explain what QT is please,is it like an enviroment (i.e.java enviroment)?

Secondly does maemo 5 run smoothly on the N8xO???just thinkin although the processor is really good on the n900 maemo6 may need a better processor???

all in all though im happy with my n900 would trade it for anythingggg :)

[ogre]

can someone explain what QT is please,is it like an enviroment (i.e.java enviroment)?


QT is a framework for drawing GUI elements. Every OS has its own framework, QT is an OS independant GUI. Java is a language with its own OS independant GUI framework, however QT can be used with Java, C, Python etc ....so one framework regardless of language.


Secondly does maemo 5 run smoothly on the N8xO???just thinkin although the processor is really good on the n900 maemo6 may need a better processor???


Maemo6/meego WILL run on the n900, and it will be available, just not officially available from Nokia. The question being discussed here is, 'should we lobby nokia to OFFICIALLY support new OS versions for some period time after a device is released.'

[bikochan]

My 2 cents...

I bought an N900 because I was fed up with devices that wouldn't run the way I wanted.
I looked around a bit: Symbian, iPhoneOS, Android all had their pros and cons.
The openness Meamo, the Linux desktop-ish architecture,
and the QT environment convinced me.
I don't know yet what to think about Meego; it's too early, with too many unanswered questions.
I wish they had stated: "we'll go all QT (1) and deb packages (2)".
I'm not a developer so the tech choices don't affect me that much for now
besides I have no interest in learning a new environment twice a year.
But still my goal remains the same: to develop QT apps fitting my needs and share the code with to community in the event it might but useful to someone else (they might port it to Meego).
If Meego proves to be a good thing, has a low learning curve
and works on N900, I'll be glad to flash my device. :-)
Now I do need to find the time to get started. :)

(1) no more GTK for the sake of a uniform UI/API
(2) I've worked with RPM before and know you can run into dependencies hell a lot easier that with deb. yet it's only related to the developers laziness ;-)

[qole]

I'm the owner of two N800s. Nokia completely stopped supporting them more than a year ago. There have been no usable community updates or OS replacements for my N800s since that time.

No disrespect of Stskeeps (or the other core Mer team members) meant in any way, and I am a complete layman with only the pretensions of hackerhood, but I must say that the task of backporting an OS (or even taking over the bugfixing / update process of an existing, abandoned OS) is colossal. It is gargantuan. It is intimidating. And it takes a lot of resources to do right. That either means a long time with a few qualified volunteers or a short time with a huge mass of qualified volunteers. Both are very difficult to get.

So, while I would like a Maemo 4 update on my N800s, or a Maemo 5 backport, or a Meego backport for any of the Maemo devices, I'm not going to hold my breath, nor will I get really upset if it never happens.

My attitude about my Nokia devices has been the same as my attitude in most of my life*:

Don't worry about the future. Be grateful for what you've got right now. Go a step further: celebrate the cool stuff you have right now.
Don't whine and complain about what you want but don't have. That never works, except for spoiled children on their doting parents. Focus your energy usefully and do constructive things to get what you want, or re-evaluate what you want and see if you can get it another, more achievable way.
Don't go into something with unrealistic expectations. If you buy something to do a task that it cannot do, either because you didn't do your research or with the hopes that it will do it in the future, you're doing it wrong. Unless of course you've got the skills and some concrete plans to enable that task yourself.
Expect everything to take longer and cost more. Be skeptical of optimistic statements. Be skeptical of pessimistic statements too. Actually, be skeptical of everything.
Hope for the best, but expect the worst. This will lead to a host of pleasant surprises when things work out.
Encourage helpful people. Ignore trolls.
Know that everyone is merely human. We all make mistakes. We all have different opinions.**


* Well, at least the attitude I aspire to. In practice, I don't always succeed. Well, even that may be optimistic. Be skeptical of that statement.
** Most of them are wrong. ;)

[schettj]

"The Following 347 Users Say Thank You to Stskeeps For This Useful Post"

Epic.

Thanks for the post!

[daperl]

Ignore trolls.

Sometimes you have to nuke'm from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[zwer]

Sometimes you have to nuke'm from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

True, but the higher you throw them, the harder they hit when they get back... Gravity, ain't it a bi*ch?!

[ARJWright]

@Stskeeps - nice post, very nice post. You all but say that we are moving to a point where the hardware doesn't matter because the inertia from those interested in a community will be able to literally create environments where devices need to simply be seeded by a large co (Nokia, Google, etc.) but the watering happens externally. The hardware, when done right, is easily maintainable by users, and therefore grows along with the capability of the user. Nearly a cyborg (far end) but throwing away the idea of disposable hardware... in the big picture, its revolutionary on all kinds of scales, and you point to it much as Nokia has in many of its recent and conceptual videos.

These are amazing times; and to think, its only the preparations before the big show (http://arjw.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/becoming-the-jetsons/).

[claesbas]

Thanks for this post Stskeeps. Two things that I have not cleared up in my mind yet is

1. Do you guys still think we will se Flash 10 on Maemo 5? Or does this MeeGo announcement mean they most likely will put their efforts in making a MeeGo Flash 10 version instead? Or does this Qt 4.6 mean that it will work on both?

2. The same goes to Skype Videocall. If Skype is working on videocall function.. would they now stop as Maemo 5 is dead?

Hard to tell Skype and Adobes buisness strategies but what would be the most probobal outcome ?

These are two huge factors that made me very interested in N900. I waited for Skype videocall on the n800 and n810 too and thought now they would definatly pull it off...

[buurmas]

372 thanks? Stskeeps FTW! Is that a forum record?

[maxximuscool]

N900 is the best Nokia I've ever used.. despite the half baked thing though, otherwise it would be the greatest NOKIA

[shadowjk]

I'd think that the same plugin interface would be used for browser plugins, and that this interface is very similar to desktop linux, and will not change. In other words I don't think it makes any difference at all.

As for skype, since they've already demonstrated video call on n900, and since MeeGo (as in an API) currently does not exist, I'd think they are spending exactly 0 of their resources on MeeGo.

[surffa]

You may find this blog post informative:

http://meego.com/community/blogs/valhalla/2010/towards-day-one

[jared90]

Goos post very informative. Had my n900 for a whiole considering jumping on development or not but cant find the time. I hope to god Nokia is intelligent enough to update nmaemo 5 to maemo6 as it looks very promising. Mainly the portrait feature which is LACKING on my n900. Not to say im not going to install meego by the end of this month anyway can't wait for full releaase. J

[Prospector]

Yet another post makes me wish there were a 'double-thanks' button. :p
Well you could set up another user account to do it. :D

[dragon_788]

Let's see if we can get the thanks longer than the post!

[Stskeeps]

A small update on this original post:


Will Nokia as a hardware vendor continue to provide drivers for N900 for MeeGo and Maemo 6? (Will they devote resources to do this or help community to do this themselves)


Check, for MeeGo - they devote resources to do this themselves.
(http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=50763)


Will applications coded for MeeGo/Maemo6 be possible to build for Maemo5 with little effort?


Check, for both. (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=51150). DUI was even shown working on Maemo5.

[Nakedible]

Nokia has announced that it will not commercially support MeeGo. That means no warranty, no support.

So, if you are a dev and want to run MeeGo - don't worry there will always be hacks for you.

But if you are an end-user and want to use MeeGo on your phone, N900 will not ever be that phone.

What the devs have access to is obviously relevant on a personal level - nobody wants to buy an expensive phone and have it be obsolete in less than a year - but it is almost meaningless when talking about the consumer market. In the consumer market, as things are now, none of the things mentioned in the first post are relevant - MeeGo is not coming to N900.

[Stskeeps]

Nokia has announced that it will not commercially support MeeGo. That means no warranty, no support.

So, if you are a dev and want to run MeeGo - don't worry there will always be hacks for you.


N900 hardware adaptation for MeeGo isn't a hack. What they're saying is they won't provide the package of MeeGo Core + N900 hardware adaptation + handset UX + Nokia apps/artwork/differentiation and commercially support this in all channels/etc. The first three are MeeGo project made and not a hack. MeeGo Core + Handset UX has to be the basis of future handset and N900 hardware adaptation has to be a stable and working reference implementation for ARM devices in MeeGo.

Last one is possible to provide through community (with a stamp saying 'not commercially supported') probably.

[Nakedible]

N900 hardware adaptation for MeeGo isn't a hack.

You are right, it's not a hack, it's a developer made release. Possibly one with excellent quality and a helpful community.

However, just to get this clear:

Will Nokia provide hardware warranty for N900 devices installed with MeeGo? Maybe?
Will Nokia allow drivers to be redistributed freely in MeeGo images for N900? Maybe?
Will Nokia provide customer support for MeeGo on N900? No
Can customers MeeGo on N900 without needing to enable R&D-mode? No
Will Nokia grant an end user license for the use of Nokia Apps/Artwork/Differentation on MeeGo on N900? Unlikely?
Will software bought from Nokia Ovi Store work with MeeGo on N900? No?
Will customer support be provided for software bought from Nokia Ovi Store for MeeGo on N900? No


I might be wrong on some points (especially the warranty one gets constant arguments in both directions) - if I am, please correct me.

[Stskeeps]

You are right, it's not a hack, it's a developer made release. Possibly one with excellent quality and a helpful community.

However, just to get this clear:

(sorry for weird quoting)


Will Nokia provide hardware warranty for N900 devices installed with MeeGo? Maybe?


It's the discussion about flashing another OS breaking warranty. Good question. What was the conclusion on that one anyway?


Will Nokia allow drivers to be redistributed freely in MeeGo images for N900? Maybe?


Maybe, but having access to a kickstart file to generate a image on your own and a repository with all the closed source binaries by providing a N900 IMEI, is decent too.


Will Nokia provide customer support for MeeGo on N900? No


No, that's what they said..


Can customers MeeGo on N900 without needing to enable R&D-mode? No


Yes. R&D mode was just because we didn't provide DSME for watchdog handling.

Will Nokia grant an end user license for the use of Nokia Apps/Artwork/Differentation on MeeGo on N900? Unlikely?

Unlikely, but in Mer we we able to replace artwork quite easily. Apps might be possible. End user license being along lines of 'not commercially support, we aren't liable if you blow up" .. maybe.


Will software bought from Nokia Ovi Store work with MeeGo on N900? No?

Don't know. There's no DRM on Ovi Store for N900 though.


Will customer support be provided for software bought from Nokia Ovi Store for MeeGo on N900? No

Depends on the provider of the software, I guess?

[Nakedible]

Maybe, but having access to a kickstart file to generate a image on your own and a repository with all the closed source binaries by providing a N900 IMEI, is decent too.
Yeah, if the tooling is good enough, it can be rather Plug & Play.

R&D mode was just because we didn't provide DSME for watchdog handling.
Ah, thanks.

Don't know. There's no DRM on Ovi Store for N900 though.
For this to be relevant at all, either Nokia needs to start supporting MeeGo devices in Ovi Store (or rather, Nokia accepting MeeGo uploads and devs targeting MeeGo as well for their software), or the Maemo 5 binaries must work in MeeGo without recompilation. I think the latter isn't true, software must be recompiled - so the question is when the former happens, and that might take quite a while. Until then, no Ovi Store apps.

[maximnexusn_n]

Is it fully compatible for the Nokia N900, because i'm scared to update my phone, because it may slow down the function and some application may disappear....:confused [/FONT][/COLOR]

[lpotter]

nokia's silence says everything you need to know

naive to think otherwise

I don't think Nokia has been silent on this issue. People just haven't been listening

[thomasne]

This is good in a way. Perhaps some people will be happy with what the community offers, I don't know.

I've been a loyal Nokia user for nearly 20 years. But my experience with Nokia gets worse with every passing year. It started to go downhill with my E70. So slow Nokia should NEVER have shipped it. With my N95 it was better but 7 seconds to change a track on the music and 20 minutes for the delete action to return to the interface on a music track? Get real.

Now I have the interesting situation of the N900. I have an N95 which I use in the car. I have it connected to the stereo via the headset extension and a Bluetooth handsfree. It just works. I use extgps to use Autoroute on my Laptop and things are great.

So I get My N900. I can't use the headset extension cable even though it sees it because the controls won't work.and when I am connected to the stereo for music it routes the speakers to the Bluetooth when a call comes in.

It's like going back to basic for everything that my N95 does. It won't even use #110 key codes when I want to top up my Swedish payg sim, simply complains that it is an invalid option and I have to navigate the audio menu to top up (my swedish is crap).

I took the N900, against my better judgement, because Android did not have, at that time, offline gps mapping. I travel a lot internationally and need those maps offline, I'm not paying to download maps on a 2,000 mile journey on international roaming.

When I get the N900 I find I can't get offline maps because neither PC suite nor Ovi suite work properly/work with the phone. Then Google realise they're missing a trick and offer downloadable GPS maps.... Grrrrr.

In the end I have a handheld device which I can get a SSH shell on and do some interesting things with. The screen is too small for serious PC work and the phone is too useless to be any kind of use to me as a real phone. I already had a 5mp camera with my N95 and I gain very little. At least it is not an expensive mistake, Vodafone UK were basically giving them away (wonder why that was with the Nokia decision to dump them).

The phone is a evolutionary dead end which I will wind up using as a smart 32 gig music player (but not in the car), with some other OS on it.

I seriously appreciate that the community is trying to make something special of the N900 but, guys, this is neither the product nor the time to do so.

My next phone will be an Android from HTC. Nokia will have to go a very, very, very long way to bring themselves back into my estimation as a phone provider because they have produced 3 generations of phones which have the same faults as every other provider I've ever used (which is why I always bought Nokia); namely phones I don't like and are not easy to use!

[tso]

It's like going back to basic for everything that my N95 does. It won't even use #110 key codes when I want to top up my Swedish payg sim, simply complains that it is an invalid option and I have to navigate the audio menu to top up (my swedish is crap).
iirc, this is now fixed with the latest update (and there was workarounds floating around this forum before that).

[ZogG]

quimgil

New MeeGo Handset release running in the N900. Rough stuff, but enough for warming up brave testers. Installation docs just as rough.
about 2 hours ago via web from Mountain View, CA (twitter)

[tso]

took their sweet time.

[Bec]

I'm still pissed about the flash thing, but this thread should be a sticky anyway :D

[khaledm20000]

Thanks for this info.

but you know, we worry because we loved n900

[Dark_Angel85]

I think most of the people who worry are those who might not know the difference between OS and hardware

OS can be changed ANYTIME on the n900... in fact, most of the people in this forum dual boots with either meego or android anyway... it shows that the OS is not restricted. Maemo is just ONE of the many OS's that it can support

hardware... by far... we all know how awesome it is already..

great post man... hope you continue updating us with the latest insight of the R&D of the Maemo/Meego OS's for us.

THANKS!

[nubsis]

I hope you continue updating us with the latest insight of the R&D of the Maemo/Meego OS's for us.

I suppose 'latest' is fairly relative. I hope you are not referring to the opening post, because the latest post in this thread before yours is from four monts ago.

Cheers!

[Dark_Angel85]

I suppose 'latest' is fairly relative. I hope you are not referring to the opening post, because the latest post in this thread before yours is from four monts ago.

Cheers!

well... hopefully he does still

[sprite]

could someone sum it. :)

it's in our favour to:

1 not be closed minded
2 support meego to support the n900
3 to nag the ***** out od nokia for ability to help ourselves, our community and our neighbouring communities.


it seems like a sound philosophy. hopefully the transgression of the maemo community is a smooth one; as a well establshed tree is harder to uproot than a sapling

[jey]

great post stskeep, i gotta n900 n i have maemo5 installed wit t recent update in place. but since im a novice whn it comes to programming, not to mention that Qt, ubuntu and all those words make no sense to me. but i was wondering whether i would stick with maemo which im happy with or should i switch to meego? is it better in terms of performance, battery consumption? or would it be playing with fire as i cant do anything with the programming? thanx in advance..

[zeebra]

Personally I think Maemo is far better than Meego will ever be. I do not mind Intel, but they have nothing to compete with against arm in the mobile low power consumption market.
I think Maemo has the best GUI of any Mobile operating systems, miles ahead or boring multitask but really single task systems like Android and ios. What an inflexible way to use your telephone, to focus on apps first and have these listed in a boring grid. The desktop feeling of n900 Maemo just make ios look like something out of the stone age. Too bad android copied such a lame gui idea, and that Nokia is doing the same with Meego. Using mulitple desktops is something I got used to in Linux distroes and can never move back from to single desktop systems. Additionally the way window handling(I use KDE) works in most Linux distroes just blows away all competition. Gnome 3 looks to become brilliant as well. The single biggest strenght of Maemo like Linux distroes is this way of handling the user interface and windows, its brilliant.
How can I ever move to an app centric system again when multi tasking is made so brilliant with the n900 Maemo with the desktop view, the app button and the brilliant view of open apps and the ease of switching between them. The best possible placement and continuous easy access to the system bar just makes the N900 a genious phone instead of a smart phone. To me both ios and android lacks sophistication and overview of what is going on, constantly having to dowload half good apps to handle basic functions like open app administration just makes everything frustrating.

As a Linus system user I cannot accept that a company I buy a telephone from should dictate everything from what service provider I should use to what few things I will actually be allowed to do with the product I purchased. Maemo brings 85% freedom and 95% openess far ahead of the competition. How Nokia can throw away such great work is completely absurd. I doubt Meego will be so open. I sincerely hope Nokia will create kernels and driver packages around some of their new modern power phones that will be compatible with Maemo 6 or community Maemo v6 as it has become. Creating open legacy drivers for the N900 when the time comes would be an additional step, and anything that should be called Maemo 7 should come with compatibility layers between Busybox and Gnu so that debian/other distro packages could more easily be handled. Perhaps Nokia could contribute a compact compatibility layer for between busybox LibC and GNU libc6 among other basic libraries. This would go a long way in helping the community to build a Maemo 6 or that can be ported to many Nokia phones in the future.

Personally I think the community can carry on builidng Maemo for the future, but would need hardware implementation support from Nokia in actually getting it on new power phones.

Personally I want nothing to do with Meego and certainly nothing to do with Intel based portables. But I do hope Maemo and Meego will be compatible so that work done in either can be easily utilised in the other.

Finally I just want to thank Nokia for supporting freedom and going as far as they did wih the N900, none of the coward handset producers like apple. andoid slave co would ever dear bring such great innovation and openess, honesty, freedom and power to the markets and the users. Thanks for the slide out keyboard and the stylus, these really set apart Nokia and the N900 from the amateurs touchscreen only handsets.

I think we all have N900 and like it so much for the same resons. Personally I have considered the Nokia N900 since the beginning, but I always told friends that the next phone I would buy would have a big fold out amoled screen, yet be the smallest phone on the market and have next generation Maemo. I changed my mind some months ago when I finally realised that Nokia would go for Windows and Meego instead of Maemo. It struck me that I have to get the N900 fast, before it is taken off the market. This because the N900 looked to become a once in a lifestyle quality phone, and it is. I think we all are not incorrect in worrying that such a great hardware style and high quality OS will be lost in the future.

[prankster]

i am gonna vote for maemo 6 ,meego is so boring )))))
and i am gonna demand flash player on existing/next maemo ,just make things perfect ..please..N900 is way better than any cell phone and maemo rocks ))

[peplamb]

is N900 dead?

[mmlado]

is N900 dead?

Mine still lives! :cool: And I hope it'll live until a True MeeGo phone appears. :)

[peplamb]

do you think MeeGo would come?

[mmlado]

do you think MeeGo would come?

I'm hoping it will. It's already here, just not as a phone. :( I don't need tablets. :) If I'm home I want big screen... possibly two of them. :cool: If I'm not, I don't want to carry it in my hand, but in my pocket.
Maybe it won't be from Nokia... but I don't care about that anymore (after their deal with M$).

[skoda1203]

Thank you for great post.

But now I really need Evil Mastermind app. I hope Nokia N950 comes with proper lasers built in. Im willing to pay as much as 15 Euros for it.

[azkay]

Thank you for great post.

But now I really need Evil Mastermind app. I hope Nokia N950 comes with proper lasers built in. Im willing to pay as much as 15 Euros for it.

If the lasers are more powerful than 1mW, Australia cant have them.

[ghaf85]

im really waiting for Maemo 6....plz launching emidiately....
tq....

[izrzdor]

let's hope that Maemo6/Harmatan will come to RX-51 to

[JamesBond@ge]

Moot points, all of them. When Nokia release their brand new and funky N950 (or whatever) with Maemo 6, I expect 99% of us will purchase one and forget about the N900.

You m00t

You m00t

mwahahahaha

[macey]

Please forgive me if this has been asked before but... I love my n900, using maemo and do a little hacking (retired mainframe sysprog).
My question is are there any benefits in moving to meego?
I am not into gaming, I like maemo, What is good about meego?

[buurmas]

Well, before Intel yanked their support of it, I think the answer would have been different. Now? You raise a good question.

If you like the apps you have now, then stick with Maemo5.

Mer / MeeGo Community Edition has potential for good things from the community, but it's very much a work in progress. I don't know what kind of app catalog it has, if any.