N900 NOT upgradeable to MeeGo

[troff76]

Just found this on CNET Asia:

http://asia.cnet.com/crave/2010/03/15/nokia-n900-not-upgradeable-to-meego/

Thanks a lot Nokia!

You just killed your flagship device! What are you going to be selling for the rest of the year until your first MeeGo device is released?

[rolan900d]

Not another thread on rumours and here say

[Stskeeps]

FUD?

I mean, wtf, N900 will be reference device for MeeGo. How is this not 'upgrade-able'?
:P

Go read http://meego.com/community/blogs/valhalla/2010/towards-day-one

Also, you are utterly insane if you think you can SSU your way to a different OS with different packaging. Which is what 'upgrade-able' usually means.

[stopgap]

What a shocker!

Same old same old from Nokia... they've dropped new expensive devices like this before and it would appear they're doing it again.

[zehjotkah]

Read carefully!
Maemo on Nokia N900 is not upgradeable to MeeGo
Sure that !MAEMO! is not upgradeable to !MEEGO!
Bad comparison: but is OSX upgradeable to ArchLinux?
We already know, that meego programs will run on maemo and vice-versa. we also know, that a community driven version of meego is coming to the n900.
I don't see, where Nokia has killed it's flagship device (the N97 btw....). Also they haven't killed the N900.

[cashclientel]

First saw this and thought "more FUD" but cnet are quite a trusted resource and the article seems pretty thorough.

Either way it doesn't make much difference to the current situation.

[troff76]

Seriously now. The N900 is the Top of the range device for Nokia and they should be promoting more than any device (along with the N97mini if they are planning on keeping Symbian).

By announcing something like this, they are putting people off from buying it. It's like telling people who want to buy a new phone "sorry, don't buy N900. go get yourself an iphone or an HTC coz our next good device will become available in 6 months...!" WTF! This piece of news is going to affect nokia sales big time.

[ndi]

The quote said Maemo is not upgradeable, not that N900 will not run it. I never expected it to be delivered OTA.

[Matan]

FUD?

I mean, wtf, N900 will be reference device for MeeGo. How is this not 'upgrade-able'?
:P


N900 will be reference device for developers, not users. The Nokia comment is clearly about end-user software.


Go read http://meego.com/community/blogs/valhalla/2010/towards-day-one

Also, you are utterly insane if you think you can SSU your way to a different OS with different packaging. Which is what 'upgrade-able' usually means.

Will "Meego" (code name Harmattan) on Nokia's first Meego device use different packaging? We seem to have other information here: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=529073&postcount=14

[mccarmo]

I already expected this. The N900 is my last Nokia. Why? Because next year if I buy a Nokia-Meego, after 4 months I do not want to risk having the same disappointment that I am having now. Well, but this is my opinion.

It is perfectly normal for a new phone every year, however, a new OS after releasing Maemo 5 just a few months ago, is sad. :(
----
Do not get me wrong, I love my N900, I want to spend at least 2 or 3 years with him. But if this is the rotation of the Nokia's OS (I hope not) I'll migrate to another platform. Of course, after taking all that my N900 can offer (and I know he has much to offer).

[ndi]

It's like telling people who want to buy a new phone "sorry, don't buy N900. go get yourself an iphone or an HTC coz our next good device will become available in 6 months...!" WTF! This piece of news is going to affect nokia sales big time.

Sooo... like... you didn't know there was going to be a new and improved device 6 months later?

[m165]

Well, I like Maemo 5, and as long as MeeGo apps come to the N900, I'm happy. Just stop worrying :)

[troff76]

Sooo... like... you didn't know there was going to be a new and improved device 6 months later?

It's not going to be just a new device. It's a brand new OS while dumping another brand new OS.

[JohnLF]

[Harry Hill]

Hmmm, I like Maemo, but I also like Meego... but which is better?
Only one way to found out - FIGHT!

[/Harry Hill]

Apologies to non-UK people who won't have a clue what I am going on about here :D

[kdrozd]

Not upgradeable? Dose it mean I'll need to flash my N900 instead of using OTA upgrade? :P

[thecursedfly]

FUD, until more clarifying official statements come out...

- could mean that the upgrade is not available OTA, only reflashing
- could mean they'll deliver "Harmattan" (or whatever) soon for N900, not calling it "MeeGo", so, officially it's not MeeGo; when the "real" MeeGo comes out at the end of the year, the N900 could be not officially supported

anyway, applications should be pretty much compatible between all these versions, or with light modifications, so I don't see the issue... after all who bought the N900 knew what they were going to buy at that moment...

[stopgap]

[Harry Hill]

Hmmm, I like Maemo, but I also like Meego... but which is better?
Only one way to found out - FIGHT!

[/Harry Hill]

Apologies to non-UK people who won't have a clue what I am going on about here :D

hehe...

The issue here is that Maemo 5 was billed as an open OS (which it is on the whole) and Nokia's next big direction with their devices. This implied certain things, including that as this platform was actually properly updateable and wasn't locked into things like Symbian "Feature Packs", it would evolve along with the Maemo 5 product range.

Now there is no Maemo 5 product range and even though capable, seems like the N900 is not going to be officially supported with MeeGo which is effectively what has stunted Maemo 5.

The comparison should be with something like the iPhone, which has received the major OS updates - which is the right way to treat customers. Or, conversely WinMo devices which don't. Again though, if you must compare this situation to desktop OS releases - with those at least you get significant warning and the ability to pay for an upgrade (even free on many recently released devices which come just before new OS releases). Nokia are not offering anything of the sort and much asx I love the N900, had I known a new device and platform was coming so soon I'd just have waited for it - but they don't communicate these things with customers, hence such high levels of frustration on the various Nokia related forums.

[Haus3r]

Mh if this proves to be true it certainly will be the last time I'll ever buy a Nokia device again.:mad: As for now I remain positive in the hope that Nokia will do something unexpected.

[tissot]

Seriously now. The N900 is the Top of the range device for Nokia and they should be promoting more than any device (along with the N97mini if they are planning on keeping Symbian).

By announcing something like this, they are putting people off from buying it. It's like telling people who want to buy a new phone "sorry, don't buy N900. go get yourself an iphone or an HTC coz our next good device will become available in 6 months...!" WTF! This piece of news is going to affect nokia sales big time.

I'm not sure if you have been following N900 before the release. It has been talked many times here before. N97 is still Nokias number one and the one that's selling in millions while being more expensive than N900.

In Nokia World 2009 they downplayed N900 that was talked here quite alot. N900 became so popular because of blogs and what not heavily advertising it.
Nokia's second largest factory is in Finland, Salo and it only makes high end phones and all previous flagships have always been made there(N97 is made there too). N900 East Korea factory hasn't been able to keep up with the demand... because Nokia didn't expect and maybe not event wanted N900 yet to be huge seller.
There's 10 N97 ads more for every N900 and i don't think that's just a coincidence. I don't know how many of the new members here have heard N900 being 4th step in 5 step plan, but that was the main thing Nokia let out in the 2009 about the N900.

I buy 1-2 phones every year so it's no wonder i don't really care all about this, but just led all that out.

[felbutss]

the issue here is. Nokia knew a lot of people were paranoid and worried about it, but cnet got the info first???? o well what do you do. Nokia lol

o the iphone 2g, 3g, 3gs ipad are getting 4.0 firmware soon :D

[cashclientel]

Those who are worried about not being able to get harmattan or meego on the n900 - by the time you'd want to switch the software you'll also want to upgrade the hardware. The n900 is already behind the times and in 6-12 months will be more of a brick than it already is. the mobile phone platform is succinctly different from the desktop platform and people should not think about the two as parallel.

[Matan]

Is it that hard to understand that most people do not buy a new 600 Euro phone every year?

[attila77]

Is it that hard to understand that most people do not buy a new 600 Euro phone every year?

The hard to understand is why people are so inclined to jump to conclusions and throw around childish threats without ever bothering to READ and UNDERSTAND what an article is saying. Ditto for bloggers who have trouble interpreting a sentence in English that has less than 10 words.

[stopgap]

Is it that hard to understand that most people do not buy a new 600 Euro phone every year?

Certianly not to me! I don't know if it works differently outisde the UK but here, most people get their phone as part of a contract. The standard is now 18 months but shops/networks are steadily pushing 24 months here to become the norm. Expecting a BRAND NEW phone to stay current for at least half of that period is far from unreasonable!

[geneven]

Attilla: I tend to agree with you, but then I read the following from someone on your side of the issue:

"Nokia are a business and have chosen a path of using the OSS community phenomenon to reduce their overheads specifically after sales support and development. There are no big enhancement requests coming for the N900 so don't bother going on about it. You want it, you code it"

That is a message to people who bought the N900 that it's time for them to become developers because support for the N900 is going to disappear soon.

Do you agree with that message or not?

[ysss]

Despite all the detailed refutations (denials?), the main point here I think is pretty clear:

...some users are questioning the value that Nokia delivers through the N900, compared to other competitors or industry 'benchmarks' in this section of the market. (User's experience of the device, 3rd party support of the device, developers support, availability and activity of online marketplace, continued support thru OS iterations, etc, etc).

Obviously, many users overshoots their expectations of Nokia... and this is something that Nokia has to take some pride in that they've managed to do so(?). Although personally, I don't understand this, because Nokia hasn't had the track record to back this up in the past. But it's a worthy praise from the users, nonetheless.

[HangLoose]

For those that say "this will be my last Nokia device" I have just one thing to say: good bye, you wont be missed here...

Nokia never showed intentions in updating N900 with Harmatan, now I know that it is because they knew that MeeGo was in the oven.

I bought this device because I thought as a good platform to develop for and I wanted to take a quick look. If you were a lousy consumer and didnt investigate enough what were the promises for device X and you still blame Nokia for it? Well, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Coming back to the topic, I will keep my N900 and I will most probably buy the next MeeGo device, unless something better comes along...

[ossipena]

Just found this on CNET Asia:

http://asia.cnet.com/crave/2010/03/15/nokia-n900-not-upgradeable-to-meego/

Thanks a lot Nokia!

You just killed your flagship device! What are you going to be selling for the rest of the year until your first MeeGo device is released?

did you even read the article?!?

[ossipena]

Is it that hard to understand that most people do not buy a new 600 Euro phone every year?

well, N900 wasn't a phone for those people at the first place...

[ossipena]

the issue here is. Nokia knew a lot of people were paranoid and worried about it, but cnet got the info first???? o well what do you do. Nokia lol

o the iphone 2g, 3g, 3gs ipad are getting 4.0 firmware soon :D

you didn't read the article, did you?


o what about proper multitasking that has been rumored?
only device that has hw for it is 3gs.....

[x61]

selling mine.

[felbutss]

you didn't read the article, did you?


o what about proper multitasking that has been rumored?
only device that has hw for it is 3gs.....



lol apple do things the right way. clear simple and everyone gets support. obviously the iphone is not for me but i want the support it has. this is going to be bad for resale vaule, so if your going to sell, sell now!

i still see people here in australia with old 2g iphones with new firmware. easy. btw i will still buy nokia, no dout about that and i will keep the n900. love this baby

[Scharel]

I don't understand why everybody ist expecting MeeGo to run on the N900.
Have you ever had a phone where you were able to run a totaly new OS?

And why do you wanna run MeeGo on N900? Maemo5 is a great OS!
Also programms that will be devoloped for MeeGo will run on the N900 with Maemo5.

So what's the problem?

[electrolind]

For you people who don't believe in Meego on the N900.....

Hey there! And welcome to MeeGo project on my behalf too. In this post written on behalf of the MeeGo Technical Steering Group I will address some of the top questions on everybody's mind and written all-across meego.com by now. By doing so, I also will outline the first concrete steps to get the core of the software work on foot by all of us together, including various mobile computing companies and individual members of moblin and maemo communities.

But let me first introduce myself: My name is Valtteri Halla. I am the Nokia member of the currently two-person Technical Steering Group (TSG) of MeeGo. A Nokia old-timer already since '97, I lately used to introduce myself to Ari Jaaksi's new team-members: I have spent >75% of my Nokia career in bringing Open Source and Linux to Nokia and >50% of my adult life on the same mission. So, I guess I might be a bit biased :-)

And now to the business: The most important question is of course about the code. We hope to move on here very quickly now. Nokia and Intel have set the target to open the MeeGo repository by the end of this month. I guess this is something that finally will signify the real "Day One" of MeeGo project, a genuine merger of moblin and maemo. What is scheduled to be available then is the first and very raw baseline to a source and binary repository to build MeeGo trunk on Intel ATOM boards and Nokia N900.

While code is certainly the most important question, the most frequently asked, however, has been about technology selections. The big ticket items like Qt, OBS and RPM were already communicated at the launch and as we expected, kicked off a few small avalanches of debate! These selections were, of course, pre-agreed and I can assure you that the amount of effort spent in resolving these was not small. After all, these are the points driving most of the investment cost and transition pains for Nokia, Intel and the Moblin and Maemo communities. Further selections are mostly still under discussion and beyond a few obvious ones (X, connman, ofono, gstreamer, dbus,...) can be considered as working assumptions for MeeGo 1 release. Now that the internal responsibilities within Intel and Nokia are becoming clear I expect that the people behind these selections and assumptions will start appearing in meego.com pages, mailing lists and wikis during the coming days.

Once we just get going the objective is to have all of the MeeGo platform work fully in public. During the last few years both Nokia and Intel have learned that the success of moblin and maemo R&D mode fundamentally comes from the Open Source way of openness and MeeGo is a huge further commitment on this path. MeeGo will be a complete yet not entirely productised Linux distribution, it is fully Open Source in code and in process. What will our computers, and the whole world for that matter, look like when constraints of engineering resources and software innovation go away with standard pure Open Source becoming the default in mainstream computing products?

The final thing for this post is about practices of getting the open way of working off the ground. Here I would really like to ask for your help and co-operation. This is critical and this is always a challenge for big new projects. Thanks to starting points from moblin and maemo, it should not take that long for MeeGo. Both Intel and Nokia teams have considerable experience in openness and open source skills are becoming quite commonplace nowadays. Still, there are some bumps to be expected: MeeGo is supposed to go beyond its parents in openness. Also, MeeGo is not just a combination of the existing moblin and maemo teams but it also means that much much more people from Intel, Nokia and other companies will get involved as open source makes its inroads to device business mainstream. Yet MeeGo operations are expected and designed to be completely transparent - R&D in the public internet! This is still a baffling proposition to many. Some do not want to do it, some do not dare, many do not know how to. We still have a trainload of openness virgins here! Herding the teams to go public will be a big task for Imad, me and others, no doubt. So, this is where we need your help. Please make this happen with us by maintaining constructive dialogue, together finding out the MeeGo way-of-working and being patient and encouraging with newbies not to scare them back inside corporate firewalls. BTW, I find it very encouraging to read meego-dev and notice many maemo veterans like Nils, Carsten, Randy and many others doing exactly this already. You guys get it. And I am very excited to know that with moblin community there will be equally big legion of talented people I have an opportunity and privilege to meet soon. This talent is, after all, fundamentally the thing why most of us believe MeeGo will grow to become great and why we are so passionate about our M*:s and not some other technology for mobile computing, right? :-)

[jorjino]

Also programms that will be devoloped for MeeGo will run on the N900 with Maemo5.

Are you sure? I know about Qt, but if Nokia change every 6 months the hardware issues of his newest devices? Every developer will be interested only in developing apps for newest OSs.......

How can we be sure that MeeGo apps will work on N900???

I used to have E90 - the same thing from Nokia - 4 updates in 1,5 year and bye-bye!
Now N900 - same issue.

I am very disappointed AGAIN!

[Scharel]

from the QT homepage:
Qt allows you to write advanced applications and UIs once, and deploy them across desktop and embedded operating systems without rewriting the source code saving time and development cost.

Most programs written for Maemo, Moblin and in the future for MeeGo are written with QT and are opensource. So you can use the existing code and port it very easily for n900.

[Haus3r]

Hello Valtteri Halla, thank you for posting here to clarify a few things. I am sure you answered a lot of questions people had with your single post alone.

While I embrace open source development, especially Meego and your idea of open source ...and the whole world for that matter, look like when constraints of engineering resources and software innovation go away with standard pure Open Source becoming the default in mainstream computing products
, I am still worried what this will bring to my n900, which is in serious danger of being dropped by Nokia all along. If this will eventually happen, together with a non-release of Meego for the n900, a few people (including myself) will be very mad at Nokia for leaving us standing in the cold and certainly draw their conclusions from this.

As I said, I happily embrace all sorts of developments which will lead us to a more approachable and open-sourced piece of software in the upcoming years, but at the moment I am merely a customer who is worried about what is going to happen to my n900 and whether it will have a future or not. And this is what this thread is about.

[nath]

Are you sure? I know about Qt, but if Nokia change every 6 months the hardware issues of his newest devices? Every developer will be interested only in developing apps for newest OSs.......

How can we be sure that MeeGo apps will work on N900???


I don't think you understand what Qt means.

An app developer will write an app using Qt and it will run on all Qt enabled devices (with a simple recompile if the arch changes). This means that the developers won't target specifically MeeGo 1 but Qt, giving them a much larger market.
The same app will run on the n900, the MeeGo based successors (and MeeGo based TV screens, toasters and coffee machines) as well as on newer Symbian phones.

[azz]

my last nokia phone (most likely)...htc here I come.... :'(

[NvyUs]

people really need to stop confusing things by saying n900 is being dropped,
its been mentioned 100x now by quim that there is many updates in the works for Maemo5 on N900.
So even if the N900 gets full version of MeeGo or not it still as a future with Maemo 5 updates, so it as not been dropped by anyone or for anything.

[Haus3r]

its been mentioned 100x now by quim that there is many updates in the works for Maemo5 on N900.

The question is: will they come? Or will developers soon move on after the N900 has been dropped by Nokia? Seriously, ask yourself that question. Will you - as a small professional developer (by that I mean someone who makes a living selling his software) still develop software for a platform which is - in the current form - dead? I am awaiting a final FW by Nokia, and after that that'll be it.

I sincerely hope this will not be the case, but as of yet I haven't seen much which has encouraged me to think otherwise. Ovi Store is still empty (and always has been - despite a few tiny useful apps), the next FW is possibly miles away, and we don't even know anything precise whether the N900 will support the new OS or not:

So even if the N900 gets full version of MeeGo or not it still as a future with Maemo 5 updates, so it as not been dropped by anyone or for anything.

I do no care about MeeGo too much tbh, all I want is a fully functioning phone. Whether that's going to be Maemo or MeeGo, to me it's all the same.

[qgil]

Nokia knew a lot of people were paranoid and worried about it, but cnet got the info first????

I would be able to answer you if they would have mentioned a source more precise than "from Nokia".

More real information by the end of this month.

[jorjino]

The same app will run on the n900

It will work, but who knows how - maybe there will be stops, rebooting, etc.

Anyway, thanks for clarification.
I am very angry at this moment, so will not write more messages for some time.

Sure will use my N900 - I payed 600 Euros for it! I will use as much as I can my N900 in case to not buy new Nokia in 3-4 years! Just to be sure that Nokia will not getting a penny/cent more from me in this time.

I don`t know about Nokia`s future .... It`s a shame, big shame.

[zehjotkah]

I'm reading this thread all the time head-shacking...

Let's analize a little bit. What do we have?
A official statement from Nokia, on the official Nokia site, that they will drop every software support for the N900? (they can't drop hardware support for at least two years at least in germany).
No!

On the one hand we have a statement from "Nokia" (Who at Nokia? My grandma? The clueless callcenter, acquired by Nokia?) that maemo on the N900 is not upgradeable (whatever that means) posted by a website not giving any details about their source.
How reliable is that?
On the other hand we have the assurance from the meego team, that meego will run on the N900 (in one way or the other).
We know that official Qt 4.6 support is coming to the N900 sooner as some may think (more infos by the end of the month).
So we know that programs made for any platform using Qt will run on the N900.
The N900 is not less usable if there won't come a official meego build.
And the only thing we don't know yet (more infos by the end of the month) is if Nokia will provide their own version of meego for the N900.
Remember: meego is hosted by the Linux foundation. Not Nokia nor Intel.

BTW.: posted from my beloved N900

[~phoenix~]

who the **** wnat meego?? i dont want to have it... at least not on my n900.... i am happy with maemo 5.... and when meego will be released i'll build a brown tower on it...

[SavageD]

who the **** wnat meego?? i dont want to have it... at least not on my n900.... i am happy with maemo 5.... and when meego will be released i'll build a brown tower on it...

May I assist in your building of the brown tower? o.o

[Haus3r]

I'm reading this thread all the time head-shacking...

Let's analize a little bit. What do we have?
A official statement from Nokia, on the official Nokia site, that they will drop every software support for the N900? (they can't drop hardware support for at least two years at least in germany).
No!

On the one hand we have a statement from "Nokia" (Who at Nokia? My grandma?) that maemo on the N900 is not upgradeable (whatever that means) posted by a website not giving any details about their source.
How reliable is that?
On the other hand we have the assurance from the meego team, that meego will run on the N900 (in one way or the other). We know that official Qt 4.6 support is coming to the N900 sooner as some may think (more infos by the end of the month).
So we know that programs made for any platform using Qt will run on the N900. The N900 is not less usable if there won't come a official meego build.
And the only thing we don't know yet (more infos by the end of the month) is if Nokia will provide their own version of meego for the N900.
Remember: meego is hosted by the Linux foundation. Not Nokia nor Intel.

BTW.: posted from my beloved N900

That clarified a few things for me - thanks for pointing them out! Let's hope for the Best :)

[Ulrik]

I would be able to answer you if they would have mentioned a source more precise than "from Nokia".

More real information by the end of this month.

It better has to be good news. And if not, the news can't come fast enough anyway.

[jabawok]

Get over it guys. my N810 is not upgradable to maemo 5. Big whoop, its still an awesome device. And my 770 still has awesome community support. The world moves on.

[TheLongshot]

The question is: will they come? Or will developers soon move on after the N900 has been dropped by Nokia? Seriously, ask yourself that question. Will you - as a small professional developer (by that I mean someone who makes a living selling his software) still develop software for a platform which is - in the current form - dead? I am awaiting a final FW by Nokia, and after that that'll be it.

The question is, what's the platform? QT seems to be the platform, and it is one that is going to be common between Maemo 5 and Meego. So, in that respect, the platform will be supported.

[gabby131]

this is telling me that MeeGo is not the 4.5th or 5th of 5 step to complete N900

[zehjotkah]

this is telling me that MeeGo is not the 4.5th or 5th of 5 step to complete N900

the five step program is not about the N900.
the N900 is part of the five step program, more exactly the fourth.
meego is the fifth step, providing a platform which is entirely usable by the so-called "average-user".

[gabby131]

now i fully understand, thanks :)

hmmm....the n900 is just months old, maybe there are more changes and improvements, i hope

[ragnar]

Hello Valtteri Halla, thank you for posting here to clarify a few things. I am sure you answered a lot of questions people had with your single post alone.


Sorry, I think Electrolind just quoted the blog post from Valtteri. He's not Valtteri.

[Freemantle]

the five step program is not about the N900.
the N900 is part of the five step program, more exactly the fourth.
meego is the fifth step, providing a platform which is entirely usable by the so-called "average-user".

I think I've been reading peter shneider's comment's differently.

My take is that Harmattan/Maemo 6 was the step 5 of 5. However, Maemo 6 is now going to be MeeGo 1, which kind of implies that clock has been re-set and that what was Step 5 of 5 is now step 1 of something else.

[zehjotkah]

now i fully understand, thanks :)

hmmm....the n900 is just months old, maybe there are more changes and improvements, i hope

a new Firmware is coming soon, providing some UI changes, the Qt 4.6 support built in, A LOT of bug-fixes and finally the ovi store.

edit:
I think I've been reading peter shneider's comment's differently.

My take is that Harmattan/Maemo 6 was the step 5 of 5. However, Maemo 6 is now going to be MeeGo 1, which kind of implies that clock has been re-set and that what was Step 5 of 5 is now step 1 of something else.

you're right, too.
harmattan is the renamed maemo 6, now the first instance of meego (with still minor differences, like using .deb instead of .rpm in later versions of meego) just the name changed, the system is the same. so harmattan IS step 5 of maemo, IS step one of meego.

[Texrat]

It amazes me how many people blew right past the clarification from STskeeps and zehjotkah. Come on people, slow down and read before going ballistic.

[ysss]

I just want the brown tower that comes with step 5.

[Texrat]

Crap, now people are spreading this nonsense over twitter.

[attila77]

"Nokia are a business and have chosen a path of using the OSS community phenomenon to reduce their overheads specifically after sales support and development. There are no big enhancement requests coming for the N900 so don't bother going on about it. You want it, you code it"

That is a message to people who bought the N900 that it's time for them to become developers because support for the N900 is going to disappear soon.

Do you agree with that message or not?

I think that's interpretation. I don't think letting the community handle things on their own is a bad thing. What is implied here is that if the community handles something, Nokia automatically drops EVERYTHING, and that's clearly not the case. Qt4.6, Qt Mobility, Flash 10.1 are all things that are/will be officially supported and coming from Nokia in the upcoming PR's for Maemo 5, which suggest that even there is a massive focus shift to MeeGo, there are still things happening on the N900 front. But if venting/ranting about speculations of what will (not) happen in 2011 makes people feel better (or simply want to commiserate a perceived injustice), that's OK, too - not really productive, though.

[NokiaRocks]

Wheres the problem ? If you want a phone with official MeeGo support, get a new device.
If you are happy with Maemo 5, enjoy the new programs coming with QT 4.6-

[gabby131]

Crap, now people are spreading this nonsense over twitter.

my apologies Texrat, im trying to read between lines and i cant seem to know what I, and some people seeing wrong in this topic :confused:

the first one is the 4 of 5 step thing, that was maemo not the n900.
Thanks

[toto29820]

I don't want Meego. Keep Maemo Alive! I love Maemo!

[Texrat]

my apologies Texrat, im trying to read between lines and i cant seem to get what I, and some people wrong in this topic :confused:

the first one is the 4 of 5 step thing, that was maemo not the n900.
Thanks

It's simple and clear. Read what Stskeeps and zehjotkah said on page one.

[astrolito]

Sorry, I think Electrolind just quoted the blog post from . He's not Valtteri.



Electrolind is Valtteri, read this carefully please:

But let me first introduce myself: My name is Valtteri Halla. I am the Nokia member of the currently two-person Technical Steering Group (TSG) of MeeGo. A Nokia old-timer already since '97, I lately used to introduce myself to Ari Jaaksi's new team-members: I have spent >75% of my Nokia career in bringing Open Source and Linux to Nokia and >50% of my adult life on the same mission. So, I guess I might be a bit biased :-)

[oxpo]

Electrolind is Valtteri, read this carefully please:


Yes, and read the blog post linked to from the article that started this thread:

http://meego.com/community/blogs/valhalla/2010/towards-day-one

And I think you will find it quite similar. I would say it's a quote ;-)

/oxpo

[antoarts]

I don't want Meego. Keep Maemo Alive! I love Maemo!
Meego is Maemo6 rebranded

[cashclientel]

Just to jab in my own little bit of interpretation (aka trolling and FUD) - I think the real disappointment people have had with the N900 has been the lack of third party software. There are applications - although most of them are really betaware, and very few (if any except Angry Birds?) are of a professional quality. There is no depth or choice, and updates are limited. Comparing the Ovi Store to the iTunes store is really a joke.

Nokia's handling of the N900 has been as I'd expected it, and what other people should have expected. I've got no time for the anti-Nokia winging as they just sell a product, support it for 6-12 months and then move on. What do people expect from them? The answer is about 10 million different specific things.

[Texrat]

Electrolind is Valtteri, read this carefully please:

ragnar knows who is who. ;)

[RockCreek1]

Sounds, rather, that Electrolind is quoting Valtteri.

Electrolind is Valtteri, read this carefully please:

[freppas]

My understanding of the situation, please feel free to correct any mistakes:

1. Maemo will not be developed in any new versions, the work will be migrated to meego.

2. Maemo 5 will however still benefit as QT will be the development tool for both and thus programs will run on either platform.

3. People feel that Nokia are abandoning hem and pulling the support, when in fact, at least the way I see it, the QT solution actually means an unrivaled level of support (gets benefit from work done on the new platform)

4. People are worried about how these programs will run on Maemo. if QT is really the development tool for both won't the hard-ware be the only limiting factor? I have yet to see a company that will upgrade your hardware for you so I fail to see how this changes anything?

I feel like Nokia are taking a beating a bit unjustly. If I understand it correctly this will be one of the best supported platforms out there thanks to their QT solution (wasn't this half of the idea behind it)? I somehow feel that he real issue here isn't so much the platform and the continued support from Nokia but the fact that in order to keep working on it everyone has to migrate to the meego project?

[mrojas]

Just to jab in my own little bit of interpretation (aka trolling and FUD) - I think the real disappointment people have had with the N900 has been the lack of third party software.

I would say the real disappointment is the lack of vendor-supported features common in the smartphone world like (inserts broken record): MMS, Java, Portrait Mode, more Profiles, full USSD support, among others.

[stopgap]

No matter how much people (Nokia or otherwise) go on about QT bringing new support, this does not equate to anything more than apps for the phone. What guarantee do we have that Nokia will continue to provide the little fixes like performance or battery life tweaks, fix memory leaks, improve their core applications like the phone and calendar which are not open source? When Nokia barely say anything about what's coming of course speculation, "trolling", "FUD" and "whining" will happen.

Nokia never manage user expectations properly, have dire customer feedback and utterly unhelpful staff/call-centre scripts. If they'd just tell us what's coming and roughly when (regarding N900/Maemo5 updates/firmware - not even any concerns about MeeGo) then there would be a hell of a lot less of this.

To illustrate: what exactly did happen to the recent firmware update for the UK which never materialised even though (I think) everywhere else got it? Nokia refused to answer that question via phone or email when I asked... not on the N900 Nokia site pages... hmm!

[zehjotkah]

Nokia never manage user expectations properly, have dire customer feedback and utterly unhelpful staff/call-centre scripts. If they'd just tell us what's coming and roughly when (regarding N900/Maemo5 updates/firmware - not even any concerns about MeeGo) then there would be a hell of a lot less of this.

sure... Nokia should tell us all their market strategy!


oh... forgot the irony tags...

[admiral0]

Too many people here do not think before posting.

I'll consider the worst scenario (for pessimists and FUDders):

Nokia drops immediately support for the N900 and MeeGo isn't available for the N900. Apps between maemo & meego are not compatible. This is the worst scenario possible. What does it mean? N900 will be alive as always. Community added features like MMS (fMMS) , USSD (widget) and many other features. So why are you whining? If maemo isn't upgraded then you have the right to bug the hell out of bugs.maemo.org and get fixes. There are also alternatives to maemo. Meego will be ported unofficially for sure and if not other distros will. The things you should worry about is getting drivers open (at least right to distribute binary drivers and firmwares) and that's all.

I'm coming from openmoko community, a community that's alive even if openmoko Inc. left us with very little support.

Just have fun and enjoy your N900. Software can be changed, so don't worry about it. Nokia is not a vendor that closes up thair devices.

[Ronaldo]

I have not done that much whining about this BUT even though i'm enjoying the n900 as it is with community apps, but i would like commercial and support from 3rd party delevopers to make games and apps which will keep the n900 interesting. Oh yeh bug fix!.

This is what is cause FUD! developers not supporting n900 because nokia doesnt want to tell any one what the future is for n900.

bollox to nokia!

[kdrozd]

Lot of ANSWERS:

http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect#The_MeeGo_project _has_announced_support_for_the_N900.__What_does_it _really_mean_for_my_N900_.3F

And can we wait to end of the month to see what they will offer to us? See post from Quim.

I don't need/want upgrade my (cool!!!) Maemo 5 to Meego on N900. I'll buy NX for Harmattan (and next NY for 100% MeeGo) - and run all my Qt programs on it.

[attila77]

I have not done that much whining about this BUT even though i'm enjoying the n900 as it is with community apps, but i would like commercial and support from 3rd party delevopers to make games and apps which will keep the n900 interesting. Oh yeh bug fix!.

This is what is cause FUD! developers not supporting n900 because nokia doesnt want to tell any one what the future is for n900.

Actually, commercial developers care the *least* about the N900's future. Why would they care if you have MMS or video calling or whatever you're missing from Maemo 5 ? There is no commercial developer support for the sole reason of Ovi not providing a framework for that. It has little to nothing to do with the N900 or it's operating system.

[bandora]

Just found this on CNET Asia:

http://asia.cnet.com/crave/2010/03/15/nokia-n900-not-upgradeable-to-meego/

Thanks a lot Nokia!

You just killed your flagship device! What are you going to be selling for the rest of the year until your first MeeGo device is released?

If someone else says that the N900 is Nokia's flagship phone I am going to shoot him/her.. lol..

Get your facts right the N97 (sadly) is their flagship phone..

[Ronaldo]

Actually, commercial developers care the *least* about the N900's future. Why would they care if you have MMS or video calling or whatever you're missing from Maemo 5 ? There is no commercial developer support for the sole reason of Ovi not providing a framework for that. It has little to nothing to do with the N900 or it's operating system.

well that statement supports my views, obviously not expecting a commerical developers to make mms/video calling. i mean you useful and fun apps that make a phone interesting and fun to use when you are not using for calling or web.

Ovi does not have framework maybe because nokia have not taken finger out of ther azz hence why n900's future is looking some what bleek. :rolleyes:

[andraeseus1]

i think the n900 killed the n97

[Ronaldo]

i think the n900 killed the n97

no Nokia did :rolleyes:

[andraeseus1]

sure... Nokia should tell us all their market strategy!


oh... forgot the irony tags...

whats wrong with advertising whats coming soon? they do it with cell phones and accessories, why not with technical things and software type stuff? if you have a good product then you have a good product. you shouldn't have to just SPRING it up on people out of no where in order for it to sell successfully? your competition can either COMPETE or they CANNOT!

if you are about to come out with a cell phone that makes people fly then advertise it and generate the awareness and anticipation for it. if some one else has the same feature then put the facts out there and let users choose for them selves which phone will make them fly better, faster, further etc. i think they should not leave folsk in the dark who just drop 700+ on the latest nokia device, Especially when it lacked a lot of things you would expect from a nokia device. If you make a succesor phone it should at least be better (have more features, better features, or more improved features) then the phone that proceeded it

[bandora]

i think the n900 killed the n97

But the N97 is still the flagship phone.

[Dave999]

evolution guys. evolution don't care how you are spending your money. it just ignore you and presenting new stuff. you are fu??ed again and again and again...dont blame nokia

[Wichall]

I love the n900, I'm happy to upgrade to a community provided version of meego, and it's great that the community can add all these features and apps seemingly easy. It's an amazingly powerful device and all that.

But that said I bought it with the expectation Nokia would continue to support it and upgrade it themselves, not release it and then do the Apple thing and move straight onto the next model.

I'm going to use the N900 for a long time, but it'll be my last Nokia device. I don't pay all this money to have to find community provided alternatives to keep it up to date and without bugs.

[andraeseus1]

But the N97 is still the flagship phone.

i think that's because the n900 isn't user friendly enough. it's kinda not ready for the masses yet. even though it's waaay better then the n97 at least the n97 is a solid device despite it's inferiority to the n900. i think when they tag something as there (flagship) device they just mean it's their most marketable/profitable and popular (in nokia's eyes) for the masses.

[Texrat]

I love the n900, I'm happy to upgrade to a community provided version of meego, and it's great that the community can add all these features and apps seemingly easy. It's an amazingly powerful device and all that.

But that said I bought it with the expectation Nokia would continue to support it and upgrade it themselves, not release it and then do the Apple thing and move straight onto the next model.

I'm going to use the N900 for a long time, but it'll be my last Nokia device. I don't pay all this money to have to find community provided alternatives to keep it up to date and without bugs.

1. Has Nokia moved onto the next device yet?

2. Your first and last paragraphs seem at odds with each other. You appreciate what the community can do, but don't want solutions from it?

[andraeseus1]

Too many people here do not think before posting.

I'll consider the worst scenario (for pessimists and FUDders):

Nokia drops immediately support for the N900 and MeeGo isn't available for the N900. Apps between maemo & meego are not compatible. This is the worst scenario possible. What does it mean? N900 will be alive as always. Community added features like MMS (fMMS) , USSD (widget) and many other features. So why are you whining? If maemo isn't upgraded then you have the right to bug the hell out of bugs.maemo.org and get fixes. There are also alternatives to maemo. Meego will be ported unofficially for sure and if not other distros will. The things you should worry about is getting drivers open (at least right to distribute binary drivers and firmwares) and that's all.

I'm coming from openmoko community, a community that's alive even if openmoko Inc. left us with very little support.

Just have fun and enjoy your N900. Software can be changed, so don't worry about it. Nokia is not a vendor that closes up thair devices.

honestly... i could care less about meego. So much so in-fact, i don't even know what the heck it is. "IT" wasn't there or in the item specs when i brought the phone so meego shmeego!... i am not a dev and couldn't care less. what i do care about it the tweaks and fixes that could make my life with maemo easier. Oh, and the other stuff like mms, portrait, blah blah blah. I am happy with the UI on the n900. i am happy with the quality, look, and functionality of completed apps (though there aren't a lot). It does what i need and more better than any other phone i have owned. I am confident that the things it doesnt do are sure to come based on what i have seen in the community.

Who buys a phone with the expectation that the software and techs stuff will be updated indefinitely FOREVER And ever. Just do what i expected u to do with this device and i am a happy camper. considering why i bought it and what i expected from it at the time. who gives a crap about some meego.

[Texrat]

who gives a crap about some meego.

That point is that Maemo is evolving into MeeGo.

[Wichall]

1. Has Nokia moved onto the next device yet?

2. Your first and last paragraphs seem at odds with each other. You appreciate what the community can do, but don't want solutions from it?

We don't know for certain, but this whole thread is about a quote from Nokia stating that meego (most likely, depends how you read into it) will not be officially packaged for the N900, and that the first Meego device (implying that the N900 will not officially run it) will be available in the second half of 2010 (implying that yes, they have moved on)

Yes I do want solutions from it, but I expected Nokia to provide the solutions themselves (bug fixes mainly)

[smoku]

Coming back to the topic, I will keep my N900 and I will most probably buy the next MeeGo device, unless something better comes along...

:D My wife is already happy that I'm going to buy next Maemo/MeeGo device soon. She will be able to play FloboPuyo anytime she wants. :cool:

[Texrat]

We don't know for certain, but this whole thread is about a quote from Nokia stating that meego (most likely, depends how you read into it) will not be officially packaged for the N900

The quote does not say that.

Yes I do want solutions from it, but I expected Nokia to provide the solutions themselves (bug fixes mainly)

Nokia has been fixing bugs. So has the community. Why should it matter where the fix originates?

[Wichall]

The quote does not say that.



Nokia has been fixing bugs. So has the community. Why should it matter where the fix originates?
You're right, not in so many words. It says that Maemo itself is not upgradeable to Meego, but if Meego is going to be provided as an erase and start over install, surely the N900 would be the first device?

I don't care about Meego specifically, I care that, if this is the case and the N900 will not get Meego, then Maemo and the N900 are already losing support and development (makes sense, why else has PR1.2 taken so long to finish)

EDIT: Missed the second part. It matters because I paid to have official support and bugfixes. I didn't buy any old computer, I bought a mobile computer packaged with an OS provided by the same company, expecting that company to support it.

[Texrat]

if Meego is going to be provided as an erase and start over install, surely the N900 would be the first device?


That would make sense, and has not been ruled out. Consider that there will be a developer build of MeeGo for the N900. What does that suggest to you?

[ossipena]

lol apple do things the right way. clear simple and everyone gets support. obviously the iphone is not for me but i want the support it has. this is going to be bad for resale vaule, so if your going to sell, sell now!

i still see people here in australia with old 2g iphones with new firmware. easy. btw i will still buy nokia, no dout about that and i will keep the n900. love this baby
you didn't read my reply either, good luck with the path you chose....

[Wichall]

That would make sense, and has not been ruled out. Consider that there will be a developer build of MeeGo for the N900. What does that suggest to you?
That there will be a developer build in order for developers to test the new OS and get their software ready for the next device that officially supports it.

[andraeseus1]

That point is that Maemo is evolving into MeeGo.

Yaaaay. An Evolution. that is awesome. If things don't work out as planned then so what? I don't care if meego is or isn't officially supported on the n900 because most things that make my life easier with maemo5 now, were NEVER OFFICIALLY SUPPORTED (supported meaning didn't do out of the box and/or didn't have an app for it in the ovi store). I could be wrong, but i don't think petrovich, fmms, transmission, tune wiki, joiku, various emulators and games, fapn, fm boost and others that i use often were officially supported. Even though some of this stuff was advertised and said to be on the device NOKIA did not deliver.

I feel like Nokia turned their back on me (in many ways, despite the support contributions/FW updates they do still make and have made since i purchased) so i have turned my back on them. i will never again call customer service (horrible) or expect anything other than a random forum chat on their website. If i can't find it here @ maemo.org then screw it. this place carried the phone for me since i got it. Not nokia. If nokia doesn't lift another finger i am still grateful because they already gave it the best upgrade in my opinion. making it open source and accessible to the the folks here, who are doing the heavy lifting anyway it would seem. Besides... things seem to happen faster here than via "Official Nokia Support"

[Texrat]

That there will be a developer build in order for developers to test the new OS and get their software ready for the next device that officially supports it.

That's one possible (cynical) interpretation. But you blew past what I was getting at: if a developer build can run on N900, what technically stops a commercial build?

[Wichall]

That's one possible (cynical) interpretation. But you blew past what I was getting at: if a developer build can run on N900, what technically stops a commercial build?
Nothing, but what stops a commercial build from a business point of view?

If the N900 can't support it, most people (except the ones that are turning their back on Nokia, we are a minority) will go out and buy the latest ("First") device that does.

[Rugoz]

My god, some people here are so hypocritical. It was clear from the beginning that the n900 is only a transitional device. Why do you have to pollute this forum with your pretended outrage?

It's disgusting.

Cheers

[jsa]

Nokia already seems to be "future proofing" Maemo 5 with Qt 4.6 in PR1.2 and Qt Mobility in PR 1.3. Libdui already runs on the N900 and there will even be a MeeGo base adaptation for the N900. If Nokia keeps the policy of not minding Nokia binaries on Nokia devices, I see ingredients for success. What I find kind of funny is that we know more about running not the next OS, but the one after that on the N900. :)

[andraeseus1]

My god, some people here are so hypocritical. It was clear from the beginning that the n900 is only a transitional device. Why do you have to pollute this forum with your pretended outrage?

It's disgusting.

Cheers

Does transitional mean like a tester device? like a model for a newer or better device?

[Texrat]

Nothing, but what stops a commercial build from a business point of view?

If the N900 can't support it, most people (except the ones that are turning their back on Nokia, we are a minority) will go out and buy the latest ("First") device that does.

You prefer cynical assumptions, I prefer optimistic ones. Time will tell who's the more deluded... meanwhile, there's more FUD than fact in this thread.

[Dave999]

Meego is not a problem. Focus on N900 and meamo...ovi store with paid content and apps(Qt4.6) that is what we need. why care about things that will be presented(nokia device) in 8-10 month time. Focus guys. pease.

[Texrat]

EDIT: Missed the second part. It matters because I paid to have official support and bugfixes. I didn't buy any old computer, I bought a mobile computer packaged with an OS provided by the same company, expecting that company to support it.

I don't get that. If I buy a device and Joe Blow Community developer beats the manufacturer to a software fix or enhancement, I couldn't care less.

To understand this platform one needs to accept that it straddles a strange line where commercial (usually painfully) meets open source. Too many buying the N900 fail to consider that, and it's highly pertinent. This isn't Apple. It isn't Pandora. It's unique, and one either gets that and appreciates it or they don't.

[NvyUs]

lol @texrat for getting blocked by FUD spreaders on twitter
these bloggers are insane no journal skills at all they just repeat each other, true or not they dont care and cba to check

[Diavoli]

My god, some people here are so hypocritical. It was clear from the beginning that the n900 is only a transitional device. Why do you have to pollute this forum with your pretended outrage?

It's disgusting.

Cheers

Completely agree with the above comment, we all knew that this was a building device for Maemo, that's how is was billed to us. Let's all be realistic, the way technology is changing, we're all lucky now to keep a device for a good year until we see something that catches our eye. Personally I can't wait for the new device to come out, you can always sell the N900 and get the new MEEGO! :)

[Texrat]

lol @texrat for getting blocked by FUD spreaders on twitter
these bloggers are insane no journal skills at all they just repeat each other, true or not they dont care and cba to check

It took long enough. ;)

[NvyUs]

It took long enough. ;)

just so people don't miss out on the fun heres what i'm talking about :)
http://twitter.com/MeeGoExperts/status/10527998178

[Dave999]

"Maemo on Nokia N900 is not upgradeable to MeeGo. The first MeeGo device is targeted to be released during the second half of 2010. However, applications written for Moblin or Maemo Qt APIs will run on MeeGo."

Who said this?

[Texrat]

I have updated the wiki here to try explaining: http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect#A_blogger_on_cnet _asia_claimed_Nokia_says_no_MeeGo_for_N900.__True. 3F

[ndi]

I'll consider the worst scenario (for pessimists and FUDders):

Nokia drops immediately support for the N900 and MeeGo isn't available for the N900.[...]

Hypothetically speaking, of course, this scenario means that I never get more than 3 numbers in a contact, that I never get labels for numbers, etc, which is kind of low IMO, since that was implied. One doesn't buy a car that's missing a back seat.

Sudden support drop is bad. Now, sudden Meego drop for N900 with continued bugfixes and evolution for Freemantle I have zaroo problems with.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

I got used to Fremantle. I have this synergy with a device overall, and once it's mine I get things done faster than adjusting to a new one. E.g., if there are no multi-desktop swipes on M6 I'm (likely) out of there.

Plus, what's this craze about swapping out Maemo 5 PR1.2 or 1.3 or 1.5 for M6 PR1.0? Have you forgotten the shovel-o-issues? By the time M6 will be all patched and grown up the N900 will likely be old (enough) in terms of N910 or competitors having multi-core CPUs based on Atom that run XP and we can finally have Office.

By then, I won't be missing my beloved N900 the same way I don't miss my (once beloved) N80.

[geneven]

Yippee, stampeding can be fun! Watch out for that cliff!

Nice of that Texrat fellow and others to ride out from time to time singing:

"Get along, little users, everything's gonna be ok
We'll all be in pasture, 'bout the close of day.
Don't let the tumbleweed scare ya, let it roll on by
It looks dark now, but ahead there's blue sky"

[UNderworld]

seeing that most people "love" the N900 and some even see it "close to perfection"... I dont understand why you would want another OS on it.. ?? You bought it with Maemo5, why do u want Nokia to put MeeGo on it now? It was never advertised with MeeGo, thus I dont think it will ever get an official meego upgrade..

What Nokia is doing is sort of clever imo.. They dont have staff like before (recession), thus selling incomplete phones for buyers / developers to finish it off.. lol

I am going to sell it as soon as Nexus one comes to the UK - sad I cant order it now because theres no insurance yet for this...

[stopgap]

That's one possible (cynical) interpretation. But you blew past what I was getting at: if a developer build can run on N900, what technically stops a commercial build?

One possibility is Nokia (and or Intel) not wanting to best the marketing hype of the first new MeeGo device by just upgrading the N900.

[geneven]

What Nokia is doing is sort of clever imo.. They dont have staff like before (recession), thus selling incomplete phones for buyers / developers to finish it off.. lol


You need to get religion! Imagine a world in which volunteers are a huge force in shaping their own destiny. This is a pretty good answer to older theories such as Marx's "alienated labor". The labor isn't alienated when it is building its own future.

[Texrat]

My further take on this: http://tabulacrypticum.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/meego-and-the-n900-meet-blogger-irresponsibility/

[DaveP1]

You need to get religion! Imagine a world in which volunteers are a huge force in shaping their own destiny. This is a pretty good answer to older theories such as Marx's "alienated labor". The labor isn't alienated when it is building its own future.

Karl never made as much sense as Groucho.

As far as older theories, as was pointed out by Xenophon, economic progress relies on a division of labor. Volunteers may be great for guiding project requirements but I'd rather buy a house built by professionals.

If Meego is to be as successful as WebOS or Win 7 Mobile (much less Apple OS, Android, or Symbian) it needs to have professionals creating a professional, polished product. So far, no version of Maemo could really be considered more than beta code - stable but unfinished.

As a test bed for Symbian, this is no problem. On the other hand, if Meego is to be the replacement for Symbian as the world class smartphone OS, Nokia/Intel will relegate volunteers to non-core app development and their professionals will focus on the OS.

Which is fine with me. I don't buy a phone (or a tablet) to program it, I buy a phone to use it.

[Ronaldo]

I do not care about meego on my n900. All this FUD is because we the end users do not know how much support we will get for maemo5.

Like i said on other post, if nokia sort Ovi crap out and have a framework sorted and developers make apps whether in Qt or other languages does not matter as long as we have commerical developer support with our excellent community support for n900 Maemo5

All we need from nokia on top of this is bug fix and maybe intro couple features.

meego would be good to have but not needed in my opinion as i personlly think maemo is a great little OS with potential but limited with rich applications because of Nokia.....

[lfcobra]

I never expected the n900 to be "upgradeable" (i read that as an OTA update) to meego. I do expect that the developer community will release a meego firmware that we will be able to flash our device with to get meego if we choose. Whether or not meego on the n900 will be fully functional (cell antenna, wifi antenna, gps, bluetooth...) i think is still up in the air.

My real concern is that everyone keeps saying "meego app will work on maemo5 with little or no modification." The problem with that is that its up to the developer to want to release their app on both maemo and meego. Sure it may be as simple as recompiling the code with no changes at all but if the developer doesnt do it and the source code isnt open, then one OS is left without the app. Independent developers will almost certainly release their apps for both meego and maemo but what about apps from companies? I can currently get things like a Geico app on an iphone but there is no such app for symbian platforms. I know that iphoneOS and symbian are nothing alike but i think the argument is valid: if the developer doesnt want to release multiple versions of the application (even if no changes are needed) then theres no guarantee that maemo will get the app.

Also if the new meego applications require new hardware to function (e.g. multitouch capable screen) the n900 wouldn't be able to run these apps either. It just upset me when I keep reading that "maemo can run meego apps! stop worrying!" It can only run the apps if the developers want it to.

Am I totally wrong? Have I misunderstood the development process of applications for the QT platform? Please feel free to let me know if i am wrong because I really want to understand the situation.

[oxpo]

My further take on this: http://tabulacrypticum.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/meego-and-the-n900-meet-blogger-irresponsibility/

Good summary!

/oxpo

[stopgap]

My further take on this: http://tabulacrypticum.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/meego-and-the-n900-meet-blogger-irresponsibility/

I really do respect your optimism over this but you need to understand that I and many others don't share it. Do not get me wrong... I certainly hope that you are right on this one but my personal experience with Nokia devices leads me to expect you are not.

It's a shame that the biggest spreader of "FUD", Nokia, do not see the need to protect their image and customers by being more communicative and affirmative regarding device support timelines etc.

On another point people on this forum need to be aware that the N900 is being sold, in the UK at least, as an uber-powerful new multimedia smartphone. One of the UK's biggest mobile retailers Carphone Warehouse is selling it this way. I went in to a store today and pretended to be a lay user interested in upgrading to the N900 having seen their adverts - they certainly aren't selling it as a dev-device. Don't be so hard on people on this point - just because you may realise it, doesn't mean that your average Joe consumer hasn't been sold it without being warned/made aware of this.

[Laughing Man]

My real concern is that everyone keeps saying "meego app will work on maemo5 with little or no modification." The problem with that is that its up to the developer to want to release their app on both maemo and meego. Sure it may be as simple as recompiling the code with no changes at all but if the developer doesnt do it and the source code isnt open, then one OS is left without the app. Independent developers will almost certainly release their apps for both meego and maemo but what about apps from companies? I can currently get things like a Geico app on an iphone but there is no such app for symbian platforms. I know that iphoneOS and symbian are nothing alike but i think the argument is valid: if the developer doesnt want to release multiple versions of the application (even if no changes are needed) then theres no guarantee that maemo will get the app.


I think that depends on what's needed to release multiple versions of the app. For example, if developers do have to recompile it then yes that effects what apps will show up if the source code isn't released. But if it's something like Android's java interpreter, it shouldn't matter. You would be able to take an app released for Meego, and just run it on the N900 without a need for a recompile. Though sadly I think it's the earlier one.

Also if the new meego applications require new hardware to function (e.g. multitouch capable screen) the n900 wouldn't be able to run these apps either. It just upset me when I keep reading that "maemo can run meego apps! stop worrying!" It can only run the apps if the developers want it to.

Well considering Nokia and Intel's goal is to run Meego on nearly everything, if a developer wants to create a multi-touch only app, then their app is only marketable to devices with multi-touch capability. Meego isn't N900 + next Nokia device. Meego is netbooks, mobile devices, TVs, etc..thus a developer that wants the largest audience will make an app that isn't limited to certain hardware forms.

[Ronaldo]

I really do respect your optimism over this but you need to understand that I and many others don't share it. Do not get me wrong... I certainly hope that you are right on this one but my personal experience with Nokia devices leads me to expect you are not.

It's a shame that the biggest spreader of "FUD", Nokia, do not see the need to protect their image and customers by being more communicative and affirmative regarding device support timelines etc.

On another point people on this forum need to be aware that the N900 is being sold, in the UK at least, as an uber-powerful new multimedia smartphone. One of the UK's biggest mobile retailers Carphone Warehouse is selling it this way. I went in to a store today and pretended to be a lay user interested in upgrading to the N900 having seen their adverts - they certainly aren't selling it as a dev-device. Don't be so hard on people on this point - just because you may realise it, doesn't mean that your average Joe consumer hasn't been sold it without being warned/made aware of this.

I agree, in UK the handset is selling well and pushed by CPW and other retailers like vodafone stores and Nokia stores.

This could be the best device on the market if we had full support from nokia and other developers ( No no talking about supporting meego talking about support maemo for n900)

[Texrat]

I really do respect your optimism over this but you need to understand that I and many others don't share it. Do not get me wrong... I certainly hope that you are right on this one but my personal experience with Nokia devices leads me to expect you are not.

I'm just wondering how that COULD be wrong, given that I am going by facts, whereas those believing the blogger are falling for hysteria.

???

[jimmyb5374]

My own take on this, will meego / any newer build be available on the n900 past the slim pickings updates we will get ???

NO , the reasoning behind my thought, it won't make nokia anymore money , so why would they do it ? Newer is better in the general consumers mind, so they buy a new device / upgrade.

I think nokia's "this is a phone , no its a tablet/whatever its called this week has been dubious to say the least .... and their staunch stand of making very ambigous / double meaning posts on various web based platforms re ongoing support is to say the least a bit of a kick in the vegetables.

I love my n900 for what it can do now, i respect the people here very much who can and do port / create software to keep it going, but by the time its full potential has been realised it will be solely community based and too late for many general consumers

Just my thoughts ,

James

[Spotfist]

the thing is that there just isn't enough advertising for thi phone! it blows all other phones out of the water, on what other phone can you do all of the things you can do on the n900? When my bro took a look at my n900 he was blown away!

Develpment for the n900 is slow yes but it's still moving and I dont see it ever stopping, I bet that no matter what os nokia change to it will no doubt suffer the same problem, it seems that someone in Nokia has an unfounded love for symbian and is refusing to let it go.

If we dont get meego who cares? Im sure that someone clever will come along and wright there own fw or at least update the current, if not apps will still keep coming and the great support will continue, if anyone says anything different they obviously dont spend alot of time on maemo.org!

Does anyone remember the original windows media player? it's now called media player classic, is open source and is one of the best media players ever!

[DaveP1]

Well considering Nokia and Intel's goal is to run Meego on nearly everything, if a developer wants to create a multi-touch only app, then their app is only marketable to devices with multi-touch capability. Meego isn't N900 + next Nokia device. Meego is netbooks, mobile devices, TVs, etc..thus a developer that wants the largest audience will make an app that isn't limited to certain hardware forms.

I fear you are right but you shouldn't be. A developer should program for the most capable device and both the app and the OS should gracefully degrade the app when the capability doesn't exist. If Meego ends up with a bunch of apps designed to run on non-touch netbooks it will die. If it winds up with a bunch of apps that are not usable without multi-touch, it will die.

If I run a well written Windows program on my OQO, it detects that I'm running in 800x480 and it adjusts while my desktop runs 1280x1024 and, again it adjusts. My OQO has an active digitizer so programs like Acrobat let me do ink annotations while my desktop does not have a digitizer so I don't see that function. This auto-configuration started from the initial install of Win7 which turned off Aero on my OQO because it didn't detect sufficient graphics hardware acceleration.

The point is, I don't have to do anything - no options, no preferences, no configuration, no hacking - to make this happen. That is how a developer should write for Meego. Figure out what device you are running on and adjust all the program's options accordingly.

[astrolito]

.
...enough of speculations ..!!, objective and logical assume the following summary:

My further take on this: http://tabulacrypticum.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/meego-and-the-n900-meet-blogger-irresponsibility/

[Ellipsys]

I'm a relative newcomer to Maemo - The N900 is my first device. I bought it specifically because I appreciated the open source nature of the maemo operating system, and the device it runs upon. I transitioned over after being frustrated with the iPhone lockdown. In doing so, I gave up a lot of the good things about the iPhone, including its considerable wealth of applications, because having a phone that could run Linux, load media onto without iTunes etc... was more important.

I could have gone with an Android handset. Android would have wrested control from Apple as well, and their platform is still somewhat open, and has considerably greater development. But no, I figured that I'd support the "purest" Linux on a GSM phone, one that allowed programming in any language, didn't require a dev kit or license etc..

I bought the N900 expecting to be able to upgrade. It is completely contrary to the "open" nature of the rest of the OS, the rest of the hardware, not to be able to. When I choose Arch Linux, I expect to be able to pacman -Syu and get the latest packages. When I choose Ubuntu, I know that 9.04 can be upgraded to 9.10 and that 10.04 will be in my future as well. Hell, even the iPhone - the Anti Maemo/MeeGo - upgrades its OS even on older hardware. If the install isn't as simple as simply an OTA update, that's fine. I don't mind it being more like installing an OS "from scratch", but churn out firmware and an OS, package it up in a little program for Linux/Windows/Mac, connect via USB, and install the new OS!

If Maemo5 is the terminal point for the N900, then I'm done. I'm done with Nokia. I'm not paying $600 for a "hacker" ready device with an open OS, only to be told "Sorry, time to buy another one". That's the reason I came HERE, to get away from that. I'm not going to be buying the new "N1000" that comes with MeeGo, believing that I'll be able to update. Its not worth throwing my money away. Right now ambiguous language is not helping the situation!

I know this is all up in the air for the time being and hope Nokia makes the right choice in the end.

[geneven]

That Groucho quip was pretty funny when made more than fifty years ago,.

[jaysire]

I like how people are defending this device by saying "It's not a phone, it's a computer!" and "Omg, did you think you bought a phone?" and then in the next breath it's "Why would you expect your phone to be upgradeable to the next OS version?". Well, I've upgraded all my other "computers", so why not this one?

I also couldn't help but notice Electrolind's message had a very low signal-to-noise ratio and sounded almost like a PR-department press-release. Nowhere did he actually address the premise of this thread, which is that the N900 will supposedly not be upgradebeable to MeeGo. I don't really get the feeling that Nokia has a lot of experience of openness... or did you just mean the software kind?

Still, thanks for coming forward with something. A little more actual information and people would've been ecstatic!

[attila77]

I know this is all up in the air for the time being and hope Nokia makes the right choice in the end.

I don't understand this. Why is it Nokia's choice ? If Nokia is the only one that can answer you, it matters not how open the device is (ever asked Dell to upgrade that Ubuntu 8.04 on the Dell Mini ?). Openness is supposed to guarantee that OTHERS are able to go in there (Mer, anyone ?), not that the original manufacturer will provide further updates (which would be best, but has nothing to do with openness).

[jsa]

I like how people are defending this device by saying "It's not a phone, it's a computer!" and "Omg, did you think you bought a phone?" and then in the next breath it's "Why would you expect your phone to be upgradeable to the next OS version?". Well, I've upgraded all my other "computers", so why not this one?

I also couldn't help but notice Electrolind's message had a very low signal-to-noise ratio and sounded almost like a PR-department press-release. Nowhere did he actually address the premise of this thread, which is that the N900 will supposedly not be upgradebeable to MeeGo. I don't really get the feeling that Nokia has a lot of experience of openness... or did you just mean the software kind?

Still, thanks for coming forward with something. A little more actual information and people would've been ecstatic!

Electrolind's message was just copied and pasted without proper quotation from here (http://meego.com/community/blogs/valhalla/2010/towards-day-one), it wasn't supposed to address the premise of this thread because it was written almost two weeks ago about a slightly different subject. Discussed in length here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=46445).

[Matan]

I don't understand this. Why is it Nokia's choice ? If Nokia is the only one that can answer you, it matters not how open the device is (ever asked Dell to upgrade that Ubuntu 8.04 on the Dell Mini ?). Openness is supposed to guarantee that OTHERS are able to go in there (Mer, anyone ?), not that the original manufacturer will provide further updates (which would be best, but has nothing to do with openness).

But N900 is not open. No one but Nokia can write an OS that uses all its features, therefore your analogy fails.

I would much prefer to see complete documentation of the N900 than continuing support. But I know there is no chance for the former, and there is a slim chance for the latter.

[se23]

kinda stupid to post this but its true that a phone these days has 12 month life span. I got this phone on vodafone uk on a 12 month contract......yes 12 so even with the £45 a month id still say its better than the £500 euros some have spent and its unlocked. last but not least i dnt play games and crap hence y i sold my iphone but maemo is an EXCELLENT os, i love it. meego will be a bonus but who cares.

[attila77]

But N900 is not open. No one but Nokia can write an OS that uses all its features, therefore your analogy fails.

The N900 (and Maemo 5) is not 100% open, and nobody said it was (you *can* install other OSes without being prevented to do so - drivers and docs are a different issue, I know). It's sad, but that's the way it is. Let's see if that 100% Free promise will be kept with MeeGo.

I would much prefer to see complete documentation of the N900 than continuing support. But I know there is no chance for the former, and there is a slim chance for the latter.

There IS a chance, that's what the whole distmaster thing is about (considering docs as an aspect of open code, with the presumption there ARE quality docs to get in the first place). But there seems to be no (=minimal) interest in that from the N900 folks on talk. I understand what you're saying, but it is not what the people in this thread are talking about.

[Matan]

See said distmaster recommendation on freeing BME, to understand what chance is there.

Since Nokia did not free stuff from 770 frame, with lame excuses such as "competitive advantage", since It took three years to free libicd_network_dummy, which is not much more than a set of emty functions, it is obvious there is no chance whatsoever, hence no discussion.

On the other hand, I (and apparently some others) believe that with enough pressure Nokia will understand the stupidity of deciding not to get Harmattan to work on N900, and will avoid that decision.

[DaveP1]

On the other hand, I (and apparently some others) believe that with enough pressure Nokia will understand the stupidity of deciding not to get Harmattan to work on N900, and will avoid that decision.

But from their point of view, what's stupid about it? It will cost them money to make Meego work on the N900. It will not sell any new units. And I strongly suspect that this community will not want to pay for the upgrade.

For that matter, what pressure? "Dear Nokia, if you don't put Meego on the N900 I won't buy a new Nokia phone." But if they do put Meego on the N900 you won't buy a new Nokia phone either!

Frankly, your best bet may be that Intel pressures Nokia to get the Meego brand out to a broader set of devices.

But besides that, if you're happy with the N900, why would you want to change to a new, unproven, OS mashup?

[Laughing Man]

I like how people are defending this device by saying "It's not a phone, it's a computer!" and "Omg, did you think you bought a phone?" and then in the next breath it's "Why would you expect your phone to be upgradeable to the next OS version?". Well, I've upgraded all my other "computers", so why not this one?



Sure you can upgrade it, whether the company supports it or not is another story.

E.g. Updating Windows and Linux and not having driver support for the hardware.

And DaveP1's point is spot on. Though there is a benefit for Nokia to maintain the N900, namely their reputation. Of course whether they care or not is up to them.

[Matan]

But from their point of view, what's stupid about it? It will cost them money to make Meego work on the N900. It will not sell any new units. And I strongly suspect that this community will not want to pay for the upgrade.


It will sell more units - see people on this forum selling their devices for this reason. A sold used device might mean a lost new device sell.

It will also sell other devices. See the people declaring on this forum - "this is the last Nokia I buy", with this as a reason.

I know that when I am asked to advise people on buying a new high end phone, I suggest N1 rather than N900, mainly due to bad phone functionality and no hope of improvement.


For that matter, what pressure? "Dear Nokia, if you don't put Meego on the N900 I won't buy a new Nokia phone." But if they do put Meego on the N900 you won't buy a new Nokia phone either!


See above.


But besides that, if you're happy with the N900, why would you want to change to a new, unproven, OS mashup?

What makes you think I am happy with the N900? The hardware is reasonable, given the constraints (a larger screen and no cell connectivity would have been much better). But the software is just miserable. The phone functionality fails to achieve feature parity with the 20 Euro Nokia 1209. About the GPS software enough has been said. It is supposed to be open, but any change you try to make, you find an annoying Nokia binary in your way (yes, MCE, I am talking about you). In a lot of places, there is obvious functionality for the keyboard, yet the keys do nothing, as if there was a decision to make the keyboard useless.

A few of those will be fixed in Harmattan, a few will be fixed in a system with less proprietary components, but It appears as if none of those will come to the N900.

[egoshin]

It is supposed to be open, but any change you try to make, you find an annoying Nokia binary in your way (yes, MCE, I am talking about you).

Matan, MCE is not a difficult thing to replace. The only thing which keeps me from hacking all that stuff is Nokia - they are DOING well in bug fixes and upgrades so far. I don't want to mess with it.

Well, I am not fully truthful - lack of time also pays a toll.

[Matan]

MCE controls practically everything on the device:

N900:/usr/lib/mce# ls /usr/lib/mce/modules/
libaccelerometer.so libcallstate.so libfilter-brightness-simple.so libled.so
libalarm.so libcamera.so libhomekey.so libvibrator.so
libaudiorouting.so libdisplay.so libinactivity.so
libbattery.so libfilter-brightness-als.so libkeypad.so


It probably even controls stuff that is not there. I wonder what libhomekey.so does.

Its interface with everything else is completely undocumented. It will take a lot of reverse engineering to replace it.

[egoshin]

MCE controls practically everything on the device:

N900:/usr/lib/mce# ls /usr/lib/mce/modules/
libaccelerometer.so libcallstate.so libfilter-brightness-simple.so libled.so
libalarm.so libcamera.so libhomekey.so libvibrator.so
libaudiorouting.so libdisplay.so libinactivity.so
libbattery.so libfilter-brightness-als.so libkeypad.so


It probably even controls stuff that is not there. I wonder what libhomekey.so does.

Its interface with everything else is completely undocumented. It will take a lot of reverse engineering to replace it.

You right, I was very fast and judged only by short glance.

But it doesn't mean that it should be a single app after replacement.

BTW, I guess libhomekey.so is just control of small top button... just by sense.

The biggest part is a battery control... to repeat the right sequence of charge which clearly depends from battery design.

[attila77]

On the other hand, I (and apparently some others) believe that with enough pressure Nokia will understand the stupidity of deciding not to get Harmattan to work on N900, and will avoid that decision.

Harmattan ? There never was said anything about Harmattan on the N900. Harmattan is not MeeGo technically (apart from Qt), it's 'just' rebranded Maemo 6, has nothing to with this discussion. It will be a hell of a confusion for quite a while (and to make things worse, Intel calls Moblin 2.2 MeeGo, too).

[geohsia]

Harmattan ? There never was said anything about Harmattan on the N900. Harmattan is not MeeGo technically (apart from Qt), it's 'just' rebranded Maemo 6, has nothing to with this discussion. It will be a hell of a confusion for quite a while (and to make things worse, Intel calls Moblin 2.2 MeeGo, too).

Harmattan on N900 was discussed ad nauseum before Meego existed. Currently it is unclear that they will merge Meego N (Harmattan) to Meego 1.0 (Maemo + Moblin). I agree that it makes sense to migrate Maemo 5 to Harmattan. You can can call both Meego if you'd like. it's just branding. At some later stage when Meego is mature enough then you move them both over and kill all precursor Maemo variants.

Nokia need to converge its releases not keep spawning new ones.

[Texrat]

Harmattan on N900 was discussed ad nauseum before Meego existed.

...by Nokia?

[Laughing Man]

Nokia need to converge its releases not keep spawning new ones.

Agreed. That's the single most annoying thing I have seen so far from Nokia. Like I said before, every time they do that they set back tons of developmental work.

Hopefully with standard QT libraries that'll stop happening.

[geohsia]

...by Nokia?

Nokia has never made an official statement and I don't know what discussions they've had internal. I can only reference what I've seen on TMO and it has been discussed here many times and apparently some still want to see it happen.

Personally I think they should kill Fremantle and Harmattan and give full access to changes, both firmware and base apps to the commuinity.

Force an upgrade to Meego 1.0 ready or not, with official support but those that love the Maemo way they can continue to hack until their blue in the face. No ambiguity. Meego = support. Maemo = hackfest.

I see no reason why Harmattan should be productized with Meego on the horizon (and forget the branding) and personally I want to see who can make a better OS, the community with Maemo or Nokia and Meego! Let the better man win.

[qgil]

It will cost them money to make Meego work on the N900.

Making MeeGo work on the N900 is costing money already now. There is a team working on this as we speak, and as MeeGo first code release is taking shape.

The N900 was announced as official ARM hardware platform for MeeGo. This means that you can expect an open source operating system working on the N900 working on the N900 with a MeeGo API allowing you to install and run MeeGo applications.

The open source evolution path of the N900 is quite clear and looking good.

What Nokia hasn't announced yet is the commercial evolution path beyond the Maemo 5 official updates that it is granted that will keep coming. Yes, this is the same old question "Harmattan / MeeGo officially supported for the N900" and the same answer still prevails: http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect#When_will_you_rel ease_any_news_on_Harmattan_.3F

[ossipena]

It will also sell other devices. See the people declaring on this forum - "this is the last Nokia I buy", with this as a reason.


that is a pee of a fly in pacific ocean... so that's no real argument pro getting meego officially to n900.

e: and n900 is inevitably old HW by now. and the sales increase would have to be massive in order to even make an effect to anything...

[lma]

There is no commercial developer support for the sole reason of Ovi not providing a framework for that.

That can't be the whole story, since Ovi is not an exclusive channel to market like in some other platforms. I don't think the "future of the N900" is a significant reason either, but the development platform is in flux at the moment and I wouldn't be surprised if most commercial developers are adopting a wait-and-see approach.

[lma]

if a developer build can run on N900, what technically stops a commercial build?

It depends on the definition of "can run". If all the hardware is fully supported, nothing. But there may be missing bits and pieces that are not essential for development (say, GPS, cellular modem, wifi, power management etc) but are in a commercial build for end-users.

[attila77]

That can't be the whole story, since Ovi is not an exclusive channel to market like in some other platforms. I don't think the "future of the N900" is a significant reason either, but the development platform is in flux at the moment and I wouldn't be surprised if most commercial developers are adopting a wait-and-see approach.

While not exclusive, it certainly is an obstacle many will not want to jump. We have seen plenty of existing commercial applications, dozens of games and other apps have been demoed here and there (meaning they're already mostly done) and they're all waiting for Ovi to be released properly. In the age of appstores most companies simply do not want to make their own payment channels, that's just too much fuss compared to the size of the market. The unavailability of a subscription model (which is the one that makes the most sense on the N900) does not help either.

[Freemantle]

Currently it is unclear that they will merge Meego N (Harmattan) to Meego 1.0 (Maemo + Moblin).....

Peter Schneider has cleared this up. Maemo6/Harmattan will be MeeGo 1.0

[attila77]

Peter Schneider has cleared this up. Maemo6/Harmattan will be MeeGo 1.0

Which is not the same MeeGo the N900 will be a HW reference platform to :) Seriously, I understand branding efforts, but this is just confusing.

[Freemantle]

Making MeeGo work on the N900 is costing money already now. There is a team working on this as we speak, and as MeeGo first code release is taking shape.

The N900 was announced as official ARM hardware platform for MeeGo. This means that you can expect an open source operating system working on the N900 working on the N900 with a MeeGo API allowing you to install and run MeeGo applications.

The open source evolution path of the N900 is quite clear and looking good.

What Nokia hasn't announced yet is the commercial evolution path beyond the Maemo 5 official updates that it is granted that will keep coming. Yes, this is the same old question "Harmattan / MeeGo officially supported for the N900" and the same answer still prevails: http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect#When_will_you_rel ease_any_news_on_Harmattan_.3F

So Just to be clear on this, and it echoes texrat's tabulacrypticum piece yesterday, Nokia is spending money on a "Developer's" version of Meego for the N900, but hasn't yet decided whether to bring a full commercial distribution to the unit.

The old question about Harmattan/Meego being supported on the N900 is not just a question about whether it is supported for developers but also for the average consumer, and while the developers are going to be left quite happy developing for free for Nokia's new breed of MeeGo machines on the commercially available and arguably misrepresented and missold development machine that the N900 is, the average end user might not be.

[ajflex]

if Nokia dont make me ego work on Nokia n900 this is the last from me i swear not another Nokia phone ever
i will burn the three other Nokia phone (n900 classic6220 6280) i have switch to iPhone they 2g straight 4.0 firmware which is compatible to all iPhone

[zehjotkah]

if Nokia dont make me ego work on Nokia n900 this is the last from me i swear not another Nokia phone ever
i will burn the three other Nokia phone (n900 classic6220 6280) i have switch to iPhone they 2g straight 4.0 firmware which is compatible to all iPhone

instead of burn them, you could send them to me... I'll PM then my address to you ;)

[edgedemon]

if Nokia dont make me ego work on Nokia n900 this is the last from me i swear not another Nokia phone ever
i will burn the three other Nokia phone (n900 classic6220 6280) i have switch to iPhone they 2g straight 4.0 firmware which is compatible to all iPhone

Take a step back and think about this in a different way

Why did you buy a n900

was it because of the always on connectivity? Meego or no meego, you still have that...

was it because of the openess of the platform? Meego or no meego, you still have that...

Was it becuase of the community behind Maemo? Meego or no meego, you still have that...

The best browser on a mobile? Meego or no meego, you still have that...

Superb multi-tasking? Meego or no meego, you still have that...

Yes Im interested to see Meego on the n900, but only out of curiousity, because nothing has changed, I still have a great phone, with massive potential/possibilities that will easily last me the length of my contract.
I don't think I have seen a slowing down of app releases or activity on this forum, so its not like the n900 has been dropped, it is still a very hot phone.

If you are really thinking of getting an iphone, then the n900 might not have been the phone for you in the 1st place. Its not like Apple don't have their own problems, 3 yrs and there is still no multitasking on their phones..

[jorjino]

Yes Im interested to see Meego on the n900, but only out of curiousity, because nothing has changed, I still have a great phone, with massive potential/possibilities that will easily last me the length of my contract.
I don't think I have seen a slowing down of app releases or activity on this forum, so its not like the n900 has been dropped, it is still a very hot phone.

I think that the overall focus should be that we are more angry to Nokia for possibility of dropping down the support of the best mobile phone/computer in the last couple of years.

Yes, you are totally correct N900 is amazing peace of hardware, but if there is no support and refreshments of the software from Nokia (or else) it is a dead device.

We are still waiting the Nokia`s answer about future of N900....
I still hope Nokia will make right decision and support N900 as a real top device. At least we pray...
Regards.

[NvyUs]

engadget have contacted nokia and nokia cleared yesterdays BS up.
Nokia said the door is not closed but a final decision is yet to be made, which is what people have been saying all along but nobody as been listening.
if you want to read the article go to engadget, i'm not linking to it b/c i dont like the site and dont like giving them view counts if i can help it :)

[Wichall]

I think that the overall focus should be that we are more angry to Nokia for possibility of dropping down the support of the best mobile phone/computer in the last couple of years.

Yes, you are totally correct N900 is amazing peace of hardware, but if there is no support and refreshments of the software from Nokia (or else) it is a dead device.

We are still waiting the Nokia`s answer about future of N900....
I still hope Nokia will make right decision and support N900 as a real top device. At least we pray...
Regards.
Exactly, it's not about meego, I don't care about that, it's about them refocusing their resources on meego, and dropping support for maemo.

PR1.2 and I hear there is now even a PR1.3?? are taking forever to get ready because they are investing time and resources elsewhere. That's not what I expect after 5 months.

[ossipena]

I think that the overall focus should be that we are more angry to Nokia for possibility of dropping down the support of the best mobile phone/computer in the last couple of years.

Yes, you are totally correct N900 is amazing peace of hardware, but if there is no support and refreshments of the software from Nokia (or else) it is a dead device.

We are still waiting the Nokia`s answer about future of N900....
I still hope Nokia will make right decision and support N900 as a real top device. At least we pray...
Regards.

five characters:

PR1.2

(plus rumoured PR1.3)

[DJPecu]

PR1.2 and I hear there is now even a PR1.3?? are taking forever to get ready because they are investing time and resources elsewhere. That's not what I expect after 5 months.

You have heard there might be more releases coming for Maemo 5 and come out as frustrated about that, I don't get this. And there's been two update releases out already, I don't consider that too bad for 5 months. Forever, come on, a bit of an overstatement don't you think?

[jorjino]

five characters:
PR1.2
(plus rumoured PR1.3)

OK, but these two updates will be for next, let say, five-six months. Then?
I am sure most of N900 users have thoughts to use their devices at least for year-year and a half...
Think about it.
Regards.

[SubCore]

OK, but these two updates will be for next, let say, five-six months. Then?

nobody said that those will be the last updates.

[steve4130]

OK, but these two updates will be for next, let say, five-six months. Then?
I am sure most of N900 users have thoughts to use their devices at least for year-year and a half...
Think about it.
Regards.

I doubt that those will be the only 2 updates in the future..... but even if they are, as long as they fix the bugs (and from what I understand PR1.2 has LOTS of bug fixes) then what is the problem? Your N900 isn't going to suddenly stop working when Nokia decide to release no more updates! So please, stop worrying :)

[DJPecu]

OK, but these two updates will be for next, let say, five-six months. Then?

Then you have a lot of bugs fixed. Then you have compatibility with apps coming for MeeGo.

Which device has had an update timetable announced further than the next release?

[Freemantle]

Then you have a lot of bugs fixed. Then you have compatibility with apps coming for MeeGo.

Will that be complete compatability with apps created for MeeGo, or will we be reliant on community backports?

[DJPecu]

Will that be complete compatability with apps created for MeeGo, or will we be reliant on community backports?

MeeGo apps are Qt apps, Qt 4.6 in PR1.2 for N900, need I say more. :)

P.S. Nothing new in this though, this has been discussed in several threads several times already.

[Freemantle]

MeeGo apps are Qt apps, Qt 4.6 in PR1.2 for N900, need I say more. :)

From what little I understand, won't MeeGo apps need to be re-compiled to run on Maemo 5 even given QT4.6?

[DJPecu]

From what little I understand, won't MeeGo apps need to be re-compiled to run on Maemo 5 even given QT4.6?

Yes, they need re-compilation. But that's nothing for an average user to worry about, the compatible apps will be recompiled and provided from app repositories just as apps so far. At least that's how I see the situation.

[Bratag]

From what little I understand, won't MeeGo apps need to be re-compiled to run on Maemo 5 even given QT4.6?

No. Qt means that apps built for meego should work out of the box on maemo

[bergie]

From what little I understand, won't MeeGo apps need to be re-compiled to run on Maemo 5 even given QT4.6?

Yep. But if MeeGo will use the OpenSUSE Build Service (OBS) for app builds then it is quite trivial to provide targets for multiple distros: Maemo 5, MeeGo, etc.

Commercial apps on Ovi may be another story, but who is interested in them in the first place? :p

[Freemantle]

Yes, they need re-compilation. But that's nothing for an average user to worry about, the compatible apps will be recompiled and provided from app repositories just as apps so far. At least that's how I see the situation.

So the average user would be reliant on the community to provide the app repositories?

No. Qt means that apps built for meego should work out of the box on maemo

I hear what you're saying but I think i'd need a little more convincing, sorry.

[DJPecu]

So the average user would be reliant on the community to provide the app repositories?


For an average user does it really matter who puts the apps to the repos? I think not. The app developers for sure want make their apps available for all the devices capable of running them, so they will be pushing their apps to repos. And I would be pretty confident about Nokia pushing as many apps as possible to repos too to promote the Qt cross-platform capabilities.

P.S. We are getting quite far from the thread topic by now :)

[Matan]

I hear what you're saying but I think i'd need a little more convincing, sorry.

It is very easy to convince yourself. Just ask yourself this: Nokia promise OVI maps with all features (offline search, turn by turn navigation) on Harmattan. They do not promise it for N900. Why not?

[ossipena]

OK, but these two updates will be for next, let say, five-six months. Then?
I am sure most of N900 users have thoughts to use their devices at least for year-year and a half...
Think about it.
Regards.

then the device have had active support for an year. pretty well for transitional device.

[stefan-78]

here you can ask nokia what you want to know

http://www.mobil.se/articles/Chatta-...-1.338239.html

the swedish magazine mobil has a chatt whit nokia today at 15.00

[Bratag]

So the average user would be reliant on the community to provide the app repositories?



I hear what you're saying but I think i'd need a little more convincing, sorry.

Well ok how bout this. Qt libraries are currently compiled for the ARM architecture. We are fairly certain that the meego first device will be an ARM device. WE KNOW that meego is going to be a Qt based platform (as far as GUI/APP goes). You can already download and run Qt apps on maemo. So what we end up with is the fact that Meego will run on the same architecture using Qt which is already fully functional on the N900.

Hows that?

[felbutss]

wow i also just heard HTC HD2 to Get Windows Mobile 7 Upgrade.


by the way. nokia will never change. nokia has always been like this. i know qt qt qt on maemo 5 but it doesn't feel the same.

RIP maemo. you were the hot girl who was a guy all along. had so much potential and a cool name.

my n900 was free so i'm not fussed. love this thing. no1 has it in australia :D

[nielsvg]

wow i also just heard HTC HD2 to Get Windows Mobile 7 Upgrade.


by the way. nokia will never change. nokia has always been like this. i know qt qt qt on maemo 5 but it doesn't feel the same.

RIP maemo. you were the hot girl who was a guy all along. had so much potential and a cool name.

my n900 was free so i'm not fussed. love this thing. no1 has it in australia :D

HTC HD2 won't get windows 7 update. Same story as meego and n900. See this article it's dutch:

http://www.mobilecowboys.nl/nieuws/11873

[felbutss]

English: http://pocketnow.com/tech-news/mix-microsoft-no-windows-phone-7-upgrade-for-htc-hd2

Users who purchase any mobile device should not buy under the assumption that they will get an upgrade to the next generation OS. While Google, Microsoft, and Apple have been generous with providing upgrade paths, that's not the norm. New software--whether it be from the OS or via third party applications--may require stronger, modern hardware and some software requires specific hardware sets that may serve to define the user experience.

my bad on that one. "The reason HTC HD2 will be left out is the hard-standed requirements on the 3 buttons--Start, back, and search"


anyway this is doing my head in. people are forgetting how amazing maemo5 is, not voting for apps and everything seems to have slowed down waayy to much

[Texrat]

anyway this is doing my head in. people are forgetting how amazing maemo5 is, not voting for apps and everything seems to have slowed down waayy to much

We just got hit with MeeGo, which was largely unexpected. There is still a lot of uncertainty around Maemo/MeeGo in the community. This noisy thread is evidence enough of that.

[Freemantle]

It is very easy to convince yourself. Just ask yourself this: Nokia promise OVI maps with all features (offline search, turn by turn navigation) on Harmattan. They do not promise it for N900. Why not?

because it won't work?

[Freemantle]

For an average user does it really matter who puts the apps to the repos? I think not. The app developers for sure want make their apps available for all the devices capable of running them, so they will be pushing their apps to repos. And I would be pretty confident about Nokia pushing as many apps as possible to repos too to promote the Qt cross-platform capabilities.

P.S. We are getting quite far from the thread topic by now :)

No, I guess it doesn't matter who pushes the apps to repos. I just kinda had hopes for commercial as well as community support. Best of both worlds kind of thing.

[toto29820]

If N900 is upgradeable from Maemo 5 to Meego, why Nokia is so quite about this? If any word from Nokia says it will, it will not only end this thread with lots of satisfied users and also can push sales of N900 as it has not released yet in certain market such as Hong Kong.

[Freemantle]

Well ok how bout this. Qt libraries are currently compiled for the ARM architecture. We are fairly certain that the meego first device will be an ARM device. WE KNOW that meego is going to be a Qt based platform (as far as GUI/APP goes). You can already download and run Qt apps on maemo. So what we end up with is the fact that Meego will run on the same architecture using Qt which is already fully functional on the N900.

Hows that?

Thanks for taking the time to reply, but comparing what you've said with this:- (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=46187&highlight=FUD&page=30)

...I'm not a programmer, but what I read is that an app that is developed to run on an x86 netbook, a quick recompile and a tweak or two later, it's up and running on my N900, right? IMHO, we're talking about a netbook with maybe a similar UI, but 1024x600 screen. Depending on the app, there may be quite a bit of work converting from 1024x600 to 800x480 as far as layout, then usability becomes a question. To me, at least, this entails a lot more than a quick recompile. So to me, while I can see some benefit of QT, perhaps the "stock" answer is overstating the benefits a bit. And once someone starts thinking they may have been lead astray (even if slightly or innocently) they start questioning the rest of the points....

I get a little confused.

Same with earlier in this thread, two posts one saying Yes - re-compile, and the other saying No.

[slaapliedje]

I admittedly skipped a lot of posts, but did read the majority of them.

That being said....

Stop the whining, of course Maemo 5 isn't going to be 'upgradeable' to MeeGo. That's like trying to apt-get upgrade a Debian box to Fedora.

Literally... .deb based distribution to a .rpm distribution.

That's not to say you wouldn't be able to flat out install MeeGo on the N900 through a flash. It's just like any other piece of hardware that lets you flash the 'boot image'. A good example are the QNAP NASs. You can flash Debian on them and make them into a full on server.

The fact that Symbian, MeeGo, Maemo are all using QT4.6 just means all that will be required to use one program from one to another is PACKAGING.

It's the same thing across Linux distributions. Whether someone uses alien to convert the package from .rpm to .deb or .deb to .rpm, it's all the same.

This eliminates all worries except of course bug fixes to closed source software.

Also as I've been trying to keep up with all this crap, let's try to clarify this....

Harmattan has been worked on enough at Nokia that they aren't just going to drop it entirely. Developers inside Nokia has said as such (Can't recall where I read that, but it was enough that they said they were still planning some sort of release). Now, they also say that Harmattan is the the first stepping stone to MeeGo.

Let's talk about MeeGo for a moment....

MeeGo is RPM based, QT4.6 based, and using OBS... well really is there any other major thing?

Now Harmattan is what was to be Maemo 6. If they have already worked on it enough that they have a DEBIAN base, QT4.6 and the new UI... Does that not mean that it IS already what MeeGo is going to be, but without the switch to RPM?

Also, if Harmattan is NOT going to come out for the N900 at all... Then what is the point of them continuing developing it? 'cause by the time the next devices are out, they will be 100% MeeGo (read that as RPM based).

Harmattan being Debian based, COULD be a dist-upgrade away. It would be like going from Lenny to Squeeze, or if you're an Ubuntu fan, Karmic Koala to Lucid Lynx.

I don't know what sort of hell upgrading MeeGo 1.0 to 2.0 (or 1.1 or whatever) would be since upgrading RPM based distros has always been like diarrhea where you squeeze your buttocks together and hope you don't crap your pants, as your OS takes a dump.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts on it. I say grab some popcorn, chill out and let's see what comes to us. Whining about it isn't going to do much, instead learn how to develop your own apps, and then you can change your phone to do whatever you wish, that's what I want to do! Then it really doesn't matter if Nokia even went so far as going bankrupt (not that I see that ever happening)

Of course I'm probably wasting my time with this, since most people will just pick what words I've put here, misinterpret them and freak out more, because that's the sort of people they are. Oh well, in either case, party on.

I love my N900!

slaapliedje

[Freemantle]

Nice, thank you for your 2cents, possibly a little heavy on aggression, but thank you anyway.

[Matan]

I admittedly skipped a lot of posts, but did read the majority of them.

That being said....

Stop the whining, of course Maemo 5 isn't going to be 'upgradeable' to MeeGo. That's like trying to apt-get upgrade a Debian box to Fedora.

Literally... .deb based distribution to a .rpm distribution.



You should have stopped here. You are wrong.

Meego (code name Harmattan) will use .deb packages. At least that's the word from qgil.

[theflew]

lol apple do things the right way. clear simple and everyone gets support. obviously the iphone is not for me but i want the support it has. this is going to be bad for resale vaule, so if your going to sell, sell now!

i still see people here in australia with old 2g iphones with new firmware. easy. btw i will still buy nokia, no dout about that and i will keep the n900. love this baby

What has been added since the first iPhones, camera, copy/paste, MMS, faster processors (3GS). Not hard to support older phones with that upgrade track record.

[Texrat]

You should have stopped here. You are wrong.

Meego (code name Harmattan) will use .deb packages. At least that's the word from qgil.

MeeGo will use RPM.

[DJPecu]

I get a little confused.

Same with earlier in this thread, two posts one saying Yes - re-compile, and the other saying No.

Well, the binaries in fact might be runnable without re-compilation. It really doesn't matter at all from compatibility point of view whether a re-compilation is needed or not as long as both platforms offer the same API, which in case of Maemo and MeeGo is the Qt API.

But for distributing the apps need to be repacked (MeeGo .rpm <-> Maemo 5 .deb) But again this does not matter for an average user installing the applications, the steps necessary are already taken by somebody else when the app is installable in the repo (the application developer, Nokia, community, ...).

[zehjotkah]

You should have stopped here. You are wrong.

Meego (code name Harmattan) will use .deb packages. At least that's the word from qgil.

did you read further?

Now Harmattan is what was to be Maemo 6. If they have already worked on it enough that they have a DEBIAN base, QT4.6 and the new UI... Does that not mean that it IS already what MeeGo is going to be, but without the switch to RPM?

Also, if Harmattan is NOT going to come out for the N900 at all... Then what is the point of them continuing developing it? 'cause by the time the next devices are out, they will be 100% MeeGo (read that as RPM based).

Harmattan being Debian based, COULD be a dist-upgrade away. It would be like going from Lenny to Squeeze, or if you're an Ubuntu fan, Karmic Koala to Lucid Lynx.

but meego is not fedora based!
it's using the .rpm packaging system (after harmattan) but it's not based on fedora.

[Matan]

MeeGo will use RPM.

You are wrong again. The Meego that will be on the next Nokia device will use .deb packages. This is the Meego that is the subject of discussion, the one that is codenamed Harmattan. Not some version of Moblin on X86 processors. See here, if you are interested in facts: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=529073&postcount=14

[SubCore]

his is the Meego that is the subject of discussion, the one that is codenamed Harmattan.

from the post you linked:
- For those caring about the platform in depth, Harmattan =! MeeGo.

meego WILL use rpm, harmattan won't.

[Matan]

Harmattan will be called Meego. The Meego that is under discussion in this thread is the Meego that used to be called Harmattan.

[jsa]

Harmattan will be called Meego. The Meego that is under discussion in this thread is the Meego that used to be called Harmattan.

To be honest, I don't know what this thread refers to. The cnet link never specified whether they mean Harmattan or "true" MeeGo, probably don't even know the difference. A lot of people in this thread don't seem to make the distinction, or even be aware that there's one.

[Texrat]

Harmattan will be called Meego. The Meego that is under discussion in this thread is the Meego that used to be called Harmattan.

You cite Quim, then gloss over his comment that Harmattan is not MeeGo. A little intellectual honesty, please.

EDIT: it looks like there's a semantics issue at the root of this confusion, and Nokia is not helping. My apologies for adding to the confusion.

Harmattan is not technically MeeGo-- it is "MeeGo" by branding only. Maybe that version should have quotes around it officially... :rolleyes:

[NvyUs]

Harmattan will be called Meego. The Meego that is under discussion in this thread is the Meego that used to be called Harmattan.

harmattan/maemo 6 is just re-branded MeeGo
its not real MeeGo that can be run on anything which is the aim with the real MeeGo distro
MeeGo will use RPM and run on both Atom and Arm
this thread was about the version of MeeGo coming after harmattan
MeeGo will get a developer version on n900 and that is not harmattan

[Freemantle]

You cite Quim, then gloss over his comment that Harmattan is not MeeGo. A little intellectual honesty, please.

So has Quim stated that Harmattan is not MeeGo?

Whilst Peter Schneider is stating that Harmattan is MeeGo 1?

[Matan]

You cite Quim, then gloss over his comment that Harmattan is not MeeGo. A little intellectual honesty, please.

You are talking about intellectual honesty? Really?

Anyway, I replied to a comment that Maemo 5 cannot be upgraded to meego (AKA Harmattan, AKA maemo 6) because of different packaging system. I corrected the poster to inform him that the system that adopted the meego name for marketing reasons will use the same packaging system as Maemo 5, therefore he needs to find another lame excuse. Then you butted in for no apparent reason.

[Texrat]

So has Quim stated that Harmattan is not MeeGo?

Whilst Peter Schneider is stating that Harmattan is MeeGo 1?

Originally Posted by qgil http://talk.maemo.org/maemo/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=529073#post529073)
- For those caring about the platform in depth, Harmattan =! MeeGo.

[Matan]

harmattan/maemo 6 as just re-branded MeeGo
its not real MeeGo that can be run on anything which is the aim with the real MeeGo distro
real MeeGo will use RPM and run on both Atom and Arm
this thread was about the version of MeeGo coming after harmattan
real MeeGo will get a developer version on n900 what is not harmattan

No, it is not. Quoting from the article: "The first MeeGo device is targeted to be released during the second half of 2010."

Which operating system will this device run? Harmattan, or "the version of MeeGo coming after harmattan"?

[TA-t3]

FWIW, what Matan says was also my recollection of the events. I.e. that Harmattan/Maemo6 would be renamed to Meego for marketing reasons, and keep the .deb format. Releases following that would include the .rpm transition.

[NvyUs]

No, it is not. Quoting from the article: "The first MeeGo device is targeted to be released during the second half of 2010."

Which operating system will this device run? Harmattan, or "the version of MeeGo coming after harmattan"?

well thats where nokia are confusing everyone then by talking about 2 versions
the version coming to n900 is MeeGo not harmattan, it will be in MeeGo repos at the end of the month and its being compiled to run on Atom and N900.
harmattan is not going to run on Atom so thats solved which version is being worked on for N900

[Texrat]

FWIW, what Matan says was also my recollection of the events. I.e. that Harmattan/Maemo6 would be renamed to Meego for marketing reasons, and keep the .deb format. Releases following that would include the .rpm transition.

It's obvious that, in this case, Nokia IS contributing to FUD. Harmattan is MeeGo and yet it's not.

This is getting ugly.

(I updated my previous post)

[zehjotkah]

No, it is not. Quoting from the article: "The first MeeGo device is targeted to be released during the second half of 2010."

Which operating system will this device run? Harmattan, or "the version of MeeGo coming after harmattan"?

the first meego device targeted to be released during the second half of 2010 won't run harmattan afaik. that also answers the question, if the n900 is getting meego (harmattan).

[Freemantle]

Originally Posted by qgil http://talk.maemo.org/maemo/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=529073#post529073)
- For those caring about the platform in depth, Harmattan =! MeeGo.

The bit I got confused over - You cite Quim, then gloss over his comment that Harmattan is not MeeGo.

okay, sorry. misread your message. I read it like you'd said Quim had commented that Harmattan was not MeeGo. Hence my confusion.

Mistaken, as you've shown. cheers.

[jsa]

okay, sorry. misread your message. I read it like you'd said Quim had commented that Harmattan was not MeeGo. Hence my confusion.

Mistaken, as you've shown. cheers.

!= means the opposite of "equals". Harmattan really isn't MeeGo. But then again the APIs is should be close enough to call it an "instance of MeeGo" or something. The motivation of _calling_ Harmattan MeeGo was to get marketing behind one brand.

[Texrat]

okay, sorry. misread your message. I read it like you'd said Quim had commented that Harmattan was not MeeGo. Hence my confusion.

Mistaken, as you've shown. cheers.

Welll... he did say that (=! should have been !=, but it means not equal either way), which is the problem. But again, this appears to be a technical interpretation vs a marketing interpretation.

This debacle is making me nuts. :mad:

[attila77]

It's obvious that, in this case, Nokia IS contributing to FUD. Harmattan is MeeGo and yet it's not.

This is getting ugly.

(I updated my previous post)

But, wait, you have not reached the bottom of it, Intel calls Moblin 2.2 MeeGo just as Nokia calls Maemo 6 MeeGo, bringing the number of identically named, but technically different MeeGo's we're talking about to three. We have a Marklar (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=marklar) on our hands :)

[Texrat]

But, wait, you have not reached the bottom of it, Intel calls Moblin 2.2 MeeGo just as Nokia calls Maemo 6 MeeGo, bringing the number of identically named, but technically different MeeGo's we're talking about to three. We have a Marklar (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=marklar) on our hands :)

Cripes.

Looks to me like MeeGo needs additional qualifiers to clear this up.

MeeGo Netbook 1.0. MeeGo Mobile Computer 1.1. MeeGo WTF Plus.

[jsa]

But, wait, you have not reached the bottom of it, Intel calls Moblin 2.2 MeeGo just as Nokia calls Maemo 6 MeeGo, bringing the number of identically named, but technically different MeeGo's we're talking about to three. We have a Marklar (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=marklar) on our hands :)

You forgot all the MeeGo UXs (netbook vs handheld) and all the different vendor productised MeeGos. For the majority of people UI = OS and they will be very confused.

[attila77]

Cripes.

Looks to me like MeeGo needs additional qualifiers to clear this up.

MeeGo Netbook 1.0. MeeGo Mobile Computer 1.1. MeeGo WTF Plus.

This is the I told you so (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=534218&postcount=111) part :)

[Texrat]

This is the I told you so (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=534218&postcount=111) part :)

I knew I thanked that for a reason.

Looks like we found you a platform, Mr. Council Candidate. :D

[daperl]

It was said that Harmattan will be Debian based, so here's how I interpret that:

Harmattan isn't step 5 of 5. It's step 4.5 of 5. Or, maybe, it's step 5 of 6. Oh, I don't know. I think my hair is turning blonde.

But until someone puts a MeeGo version number on Harmattan, the confusion won't stop, so I'll do it:

Harmattan == MeeGo .8

And it shall be written, that no matter how brief, that MeeGo will also be Debian based. And it shall be the Über handheld/netbookthingy GNU/Linux 'cause it will also support GTK. And throughout the land, everyone will have a pony and will live happily ever after.

My work here is done.

[Freemantle]

It was said that Harmattan will be Debian based, so here's how I interpret that:

Harmattan isn't step 5 of 5. It's step 4.5 of 5. Or, maybe, it's step 5 of 6. Oh, I don't know. I think my hair is turning blonde.

But until someone puts a MeeGo version number on Harmattan, the confusion won't stop, so I'll do it:

Harmattan == MeeGo .8

I've read it somewhere, just can't find where at the moment, anyway, Harmattan is MeeGo 1.0.

Unless your == means something else a la != :-)

[Mandor]

if it helps anyone (MeeGo/Harmattan/Maemo6 confusion):

http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect#I_am_confused.__W hat_is_Harmattan_and_what_is_MeeGo_.3F__What_is_th e_difference_between_both_.3F__Do_they_share_commo n_features_.3F

[qgil]

The old question about Harmattan/Meego being supported on the N900 is not just a question about whether it is supported for developers but also for the average consumer, and while the developers are going to be left quite happy developing for free for Nokia's new breed of MeeGo machines on the commercially available and arguably misrepresented and missold development machine that the N900 is, the average end user might not be.

Put this MeeGo support in perspective:

- From unstable to stable, if MeeGo doesn't make developers happy it will never make users happy. Developer happiness is a requird milestone no matter what.

- Leaving aside the Nokia-centric perspective, if MeeGo doesn't make users happy by own merits it will give a hard time to device vendors making happy their customers. So again user happiness is basically a milestone for MeeGo no matter what.

Sure, still this doesn't answer the question of Nokia's Harmattan official support and Nokia proprietary apps, but maybe these two axis help you figuring out worst case scenarios.

[DaveP1]

Intel did pull their Meego titled netbook download. Right now there is no Meego distribution in the wild. Instead of using "!" (not) maybe we should use "~" (approximately) and entitle Maemo 6 "~Meego-N" and Moblin 2.2 "~Meego-I".

[daperl]

I've read it somewhere, just can't find where at the moment, anyway, Harmattan is MeeGo 1.0.

Unless your == means something else a la != :-)

You're right, I think qgil says it here (http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect#When_will_you_rel ease_any_news_on_Harmattan_.3F):

I cannot tell you what is the delta between Maemo5 and (Harmattan)/MeeGo 1.0 because it is not fully clear yet.

[ysss]

I'd **** bricks if they spend more resources in unifying the branding elements of MeeGo than actually synchronizing the technical aspects of it.

[Freemantle]

Put this MeeGo support in perspective:

- From unstable to stable, if MeeGo doesn't make developers happy it will never make users happy. Developer happiness is a requird milestone no matter what.

- Leaving aside the Nokia-centric perspective, if MeeGo doesn't make users happy by own merits it will give a hard time to device vendors making happy their customers. So again user happiness is basically a milestone for MeeGo no matter what.

Sure, still this doesn't answer the question of Nokia's Harmattan official support and Nokia proprietary apps, but maybe these two axis help you figuring out worst case scenarios.

Hi, I'm grateful for the reply, and don't really want to get into an argument at all, and even with a sentence that is generally a prelude to an argument, I'll just pose a question if I may.

With the N900, I would take this site as ample evidence that developers are very happy with Maemo 5. So I think that milestone has been achieved. Now how about the end user?

[slaapliedje]

Wow, I stop reading for a few hours, and there is already a ton more posts.

To clarify some points to my post.

I never said MeeGo was based on Fedora, only used Fedora in a comparison to upgrading from a Debian base.

Harmattan is just the release name for Maemo 6, Even if they decided to dump Maemo and go with MeeGo, Harmattan was just a release name. For example, Debian Squeeze 6.0, or Ubuntu Lucid Lynx 10.04.

MeeGo, as per their insistence, is RPM based, and so Harmattan, being debian Based (at least that's what they're still saying, right?) would be the next logical choice for our updates.

Unless we're just getting Maemo 5.1.2 or whatever they do their internal versions as.

I've been around Linux for a very long time, and even in the Windows world, you know there are code names for releases. Longhorn became Vista, etc.

If Maemo truly worked like Debian and wasn't tied into the hardware as much as it was, you could theoretically just change /etc/apt/sources.list to use harmattan instead of fremantle and use Maemo 6. Or in the case of the n8xx phones, change diablo to fremantle. Has anyone ever tried this? (sorry if this derails this topic, which is really been chewed to death anyhow).

So again, to clarify.

MeeGo = RPM based distribution (it's own flavor (flavour for the UK crowd)

Harmattan / Maemo 6 = QT4.6 Debian based with some API / UI changes that MeeGo will also have. In essence, MeeGo+Debian = Awesome IMO (whether we get this update is still to be seen)

N900 = Awesome phone/mobile computer. As a side thing I thought funny, when I loaded up blueman on my Debian box this morning, it detected the N900 as a 'Computer' rather than a phone.

slaapliedje

[m2cm2c]

it is true, you cannot "upgrade" between two different operating systems, like say from Windows XP to Ubuntu, but you can always install a fresh operating system instead, which will require some "flashing" and some "hacking" for it to cope well with any given hardware :)

[mysticrokks]

m2cm2c- how do u know we could install meego on the n900. what specs does meego require- the nokia is pretty low powered compared to all these other htc's or apples coming out.

and you gotta understand that the software has to run the hardware- there may be limitations on the n900's design.

its pretty obvious that meego is not gonna work on the n900- and if it does it will not work effectively.

just give it up..

and get real xp to ubunto isnt exactly an upgrade is it-..

nokia you are a bunch of %$N)S

[Laughing Man]

m2cm2c- how do u know we could install meego on the n900. what specs does meego require- the nokia is pretty low powered compared to all these other htc's or apples coming out.

and you gotta understand that the software has to run the hardware- there may be limitations on the n900's design.

its pretty obvious that meego is not gonna work on the n900- and if it does it will not work effectively.

just give it up..

and get real xp to ubunto isnt exactly an upgrade is it-..

nokia you are a bunch of %$N)S

Considering Meego is slated to run on all sorts of hardware (at least that's Nokia+Intel's goal) then there's not much holding back the OS from being put on anything besides official driver support. I don't think it's like Windows Phone Series 7 where there's minimal software and hardware spsecs the device must have in order to qualify to run it.

[cazzajay]

i dont care what OS my N900 is running as long as it gets Flash 10