Everyone else has caught up and Nokia has been left behind

[x61]

This is very troubling... Hope meego is themagic (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Nokia+struggles+to+compete+with+Apple)
“Nokia catching up becomes less hopeful because of these delays. Competition will only get tougher in the second half with the run-up to Christmas. We have to see what kind of rabbit they can pull out of the hat. It comes down to magic,”

[efekt]

Grow up...

[Rauha]

Link requires subscription.

[ZShakespeare]

Not paying to read the article. My information on the internet needs to be free as a bird!

[kojacker]

To OP, we would have to register with ft.com to read the article, could you perhaps copy and paste all/a bit more of the story so we dont have to register to read it?

The title mentions something about Nokia is failing to compete with Apple, to be fair Nokia's strategy is moving further away from the smartphone market and more to it's strength in selling feature rich "cheaper" phones and so-called dumbphones to the lower end of the market and countries with developing markets.

[x61]

easy no need to pay... just google (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Nokia+struggles+to+compete+with+Apple) it.

[bbin]

OPK will have a hard year. Symbian^3 needs to be a hit or he won't be in the same position next year.

[Rauha]

easy... just google (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Nokia+struggles+to+compete+with+Apple) it.
So you start thread with no information content and say that people should Google the stuff you want to discuss about.

:eek: or :mad:

[x61]

So you start thread with no information content and say that people should Google the stuff you want to discuss about.

:eek: or :mad:

I have access to the article and it seems if you go through the link, you'd be required to pay which is why I provided the means of accessing the article.

[NokTokDaddy]

You do have to register, but don't have to pay.

No real news, though:

Apple are selling some top-end smartphones that have restricted Nokia's growth market share remains buoyant (read here (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/11435_Nokia_Q1_2010_results_smartpho.php)) but The FT report quotes an industry expert's opinion that Nokia intend to introduce more user-friendly models and more touchscreens to compete with iphone

Article goes on to advise that Q1 profits for Nokia handset sales are down, but fails to realise that a lot of Nokia's smartphones are aimed downmarket (compared to iphone) and at emergent markets - see the three new models announced last week.

Nokia sell lots of different models, most of whch are very basic. This has been hugely successful and Nokia's game plan seems to be to take smartphones to the masses to repeat that success.

A giant-killer to take on iphone would be great, but is only a small part of the Co's business.

I think my cat could've written a more imaginative piece, although readers of the Daily Mail will no doubt love it...

[roger_27]

didnt read the link. is the writer american? because everyone in the US seems to think Nokia is dead.

[bbin]

To OP, we would have to register with ft.com to read the article, could you perhaps copy and paste all/a bit more of the story so we dont have to register to read it?

The title mentions something about Nokia is failing to compete with Apple, to be fair Nokia's strategy is moving further away from the smartphone market and more to it's strength in selling feature rich "cheaper" phones and so-called dumbphones to the lower end of the market and countries with developing markets.

This is true but the big money is in high-end phones and that is what investors and shareholders are interested in. There needs to be a good strategy also for the high-end and for this year symbian^3 seems to be a big question.

[x61]

didnt read the link. is the writer american? because everyone in the US seems to think Nokia is dead.

lol... why don't you read the article for yourself to determine if what is being said in it is well sound?

[maluka]

How could Nokia be left behind when it is still selling more phones than any other company? As far as technology goes, everyone is in agreement that Japanese phones are the most advanced in the world yet most of them run Symbian. This Symbian hating is getting a bit old.

[Larswad]

This is FUD

[Rugoz]

Nokia is doing pretty well given the fact that their smartphone lineup is mediocre at best. N97, X6, 5800 are all equipped with slow processors and the symbian UI is still laborious to use.
By the end of the year nokia will compete at the high-end again. N900 shows they can do it. With a revamped symbian ui they will be able to dominate the mid and low-end smartphone market.
So far I like their business strategy.

Cheers

[roger_27]

lol... why don't you read the article for yourself to determine if what is being said in it is well sound?

well what I meant was, I saw the article, but I do know the writer's country of origin based of his name. marija or something. so I was asking is anyone knows if the writer is american, becauase Americans wouldn't know a good phone if it walked up to them, slapped them in the face and said "Hello. I'm a good phone".

[junooni]

Nokia is doing pretty well given the fact that their smartphone lineup is mediocre at best. N97, X6, 5800 are all equipped with slow processors and the symbian UI is still laborious to use.
By the end of the year nokia will compete at the high-end again. N900 shows they can do it. With a revamped symbian ui they will be able to dominate the mid and low-end smartphone market.
So far I like their business strategy.

Cheers

all thats tuff u said i can some what agree to it.. but really when u mention aout N900 & your very specific comment up there that Nokia can do it...really do what??
For crying out loud everyone knows even here at this very forum that how disappointed the users are specialy for N900, imnot even considering the flagship device N97.
Really Nokia did it with N900?? till this moment I reallyhave no idea what the hell is their strategy, i mean other companies are shoing more porfit and tghe 1st qrt of the year over nokia, & yet Nokia is testing waters and leaving loyal customers very disappointed. And then on top of that we've got peeps like u who have their head burried in the sand and dreaming in the lala land with a $600+ hardware with abodulte no software power. I mean if you think imjust blowing smoke lets not go too far just check out the P.r update thread on this forumn and ull know how well nokia is doing to keep their N900 users happy.
So let's not talk about if the writer is American or Armenian listen to what he is saying & its not false info .:cool:

[ysss]

I agree that smartphone market doesn't make up a significant portion of Nokia's marketshare and that they (may be) doing ok with the rest of their portfolio(?)...

But no one can deny that the highend (smart)phone market is a significant part of the mobile game. It's where the prestige is, it's where they all showcase new technologies and where we see the most developments at these days. It would be great if Nokia can trickle some of those down to their mid-low end products with s^3 and meego, but still this is not a market to ignore.

[bugelrex]

N900 shows they can do it.

Cheers

Seriously, the only thing N900 has shown the non-developer/geek world is:
- Nokia can make the thickest smartphone on the market and give it a poor battery life and average keyboard (E71 KB being the benchmark)
- they are willing to push out software which is not quite ready
- They put little effort in making sure the entire phone experience is consistent (both in quality and UI design)
- provide no decent development platform tools/documentation for developers to write apps with. Great for hardcore linux developers, screw everyone else
- Nokia's pride "OVI" is not even fully supported on n900. OVI sync doesn't work.

The only thing they actually showed with the n900 is they can make an awesome phone for developers and linux geeks

[NokTokDaddy]

For crying out loud everyone knows even here at this very forum that how disappointed the users are specialy for N900,

I think that could be because N900 has been too successful and is now in the hands of Users as opposed to Developers or 'Early Adopters' (whatever they are...) - people who are more demanding, far less forgiving and, of course far less creative at understanding and overcoming such problems.

As a User myself I can understand much of this disapointment and suggest that this forum is not the best place for Users.

In these dim first light for Maemo/Meego Maemo.org is a shining light that attracts Users like moths to a flame. Perhaps it's time to segregate the Users and Developers to the benefit of all?

[junooni]

Seriously, the only thing N900 has shown the non-developer/geek world is:
- Nokia can make the thickest smartphone on the market and give it a poor battery life and average keyboard (E71 KB being the benchmark)
- they are willing to push out software which is not quite ready
- They put little effort in making sure the entire phone experience is consistent (both in quality and UI design)
- provide no decent development platform tools/documentation for developers to write apps with. Great for hardcore linux developers, screw everyone else
- Nokia's pride "OVI" is not even fully supported on n900. OVI sync doesn't work.

The only thing they actually showed with the n900 is they can make an awesome phone for developers and linux geeks

Finally someone has the ballzz to speak the truth, oh wait a min now lets watch the game u'll be bombarded with allthese linux lovers.
Anyways thanks for uncovering the truth at this very maemo.org.:cool:

[wmarone]

Perhaps it's time to segregate the Users and Developers to the benefit of all?
Perhaps, if the ignorant and panicky posts regarding PR updates and MeeGo are any indication. They're seeing things normally hidden from them and, failing to understand it, panic.

But at the same time, completely ignoring user input (which is really what happens when you separate users from developers) gives you the terrible user experience that left an opening for Apple to lunge in.

Finally someone has the ballzz to speak the truth, oh wait a min now lets watch the game u'll be bombarded with allthese linux lovers.
Anyways thanks for uncovering the truth at this very maemo.org.:cool:

I know, how dare we enjoy our phone and not demand locked-down mass market fodder.

[Rugoz]

Seriously, the only thing N900 has shown the non-developer/geek world is:
- Nokia can make the thickest smartphone on the market and give it a poor battery life and average keyboard (E71 KB being the benchmark)
- they are willing to push out software which is not quite ready
- They put little effort in making sure the entire phone experience is consistent (both in quality and UI design)
- provide no decent development platform tools/documentation for developers to write apps with. Great for hardcore linux developers, screw everyone else
- Nokia's pride "OVI" is not even fully supported on n900. OVI sync doesn't work.

The only thing they actually showed with the n900 is they can make an awesome phone for developers and linux geeks

The points you mention are hopefully taken care of. Thats why I said end of the year. N900 just showed they are on the right track.
Other smartphone platforms have their faults too by the way.

[gerbick]

From an user standpoint, the "locked down" phones are getting updates regularly, as well as more apps, games, and their eco-system is updated a bit more in terms of content moreso than the opened up policy with the N900.

Think of it this way. The biggest way a consumer can get confused is if the manufacturer remains quiet. Nokia has remained a tad bit too quiet and people have panicked. Can't blame the consumer 100% in that situation. It starts with Nokia.

Want clarification and calm... Nokia needs to provide it. Not bits and pieces embedded so deeply in this forum that I have to pull well crafted queries based on usernames that provide the truth as soon as they are allowed to speak on it.

Nokia hasn't been left behind. They're just not letting the users know the direction they're going in at all times.

[Texrat]

From an user standpoint, the "locked down" phones are getting updates regularly, as well as more apps, games, and their eco-system is updated a bit more in terms of content moreso than the opened up policy with the N900.


...ad they'll pay for the monster they're creating, too. Maybe even drag the rest of us in with them eventually... kicking and screaming.

[gerbick]

...ad they'll pay for the monster they're creating, too. Maybe even drag the rest of us in with them eventually... kicking and screaming.

By now, it's a known fact that (some) people will pay for what they think is quality software, games and functionality. Whether or not it's "quality" is up to each user; but they will pay.

I mean, I'd love to see somebody tack on forward-camera usability into Skype. Won't happen... why? Ironically the most open source platform has an app that's closed source and can't be appended upon. And if I'm wrong, which when I talk is always a possibility, why hasn't it happened yet?

Because it's not desirable? Pfft. Apple's 4G prototype has a forward facing camera. As do the Dell Mini 5/7 inch tablets. I bet they'll use it.

Bring on the functionality. I've donated time, testing and even money before. But not to a platform that I'm this uncertain of its future though.

Thus... the communication from Nokia. Still lacking.

[Corwin]

Maybe even drag the rest of us in with them eventually... kicking and screaming.

you know, Texrat, that is the point that really buggers me. The way the market is changed is not to the benefit of the consumers.

Unfortunately most people fail to realize that :(

Best regards,
Corwin

[ysss]

They fail to realize... that by paying $1-$2 they can get the app that does what they want?

It seems that at the moment, those commercial app developers (in non-OVI markets) are the only ones aligning their interest with the market at the right price, quality and availability.

[Texrat]

ysss and gerbick: the point I was making has to do with the ultimate consequences of walled gardens for consumers. Sure, cheap apps and high service are seductive... but ultimately unsustainable as a combined business model. That and reduced choice will eventually wear on even the most ardent supporters of such approaches. As history shows, higher costs to consumers will be the ultimate outcome.

[gerbick]

you know, Texrat, that is the point that really buggers me. The way the market is changed is not to the benefit of the consumers.

Unfortunately most people fail to realize that

I'm not picking on you, nor trying to start a fight. I'm really not.

But I personally fail to see what's so wonderful about Ovi or the N900 ecosystem as a whole at the moment. So what's so great about it?

[Texrat]

But I personally fail to see what's so wonderful about Ovi or the N900 ecosystem as a whole at the moment. So what's so great about it?

I'll answer not for Corwin but in general: no one is banking on the moment. Nokia and others well understand that the ecosystem still has a while to gain viability. Problem is, if the Apples and Facebooks of the world have their way, it will never happen-- to our eventual detriment.

[zfarooq]

they had 3 years to revamp an already established OS, in which other NEWER competitors have managed to create OS's (android, WebOS).

What the hell are Nokia doing?

[ysss]

@texrat: if/when opensource mobile catches on, then people will just jumpboat to it? what's stopping them from doing that?

ps: please note that I wasn't implying that opensource isn't moving forward. As with the desktop market, it's a moving target. Commercial interests will most likely always a step ahead (in terms of gaining/holding onto marketshare) due to many factors.

[Texrat]

@texrat: if/when opensource mobile catches on, then people will just jumpboat to it? what's stopping them from doing that?

I doubt anyone will "just jump". Much more will be required from those trying to drive that, as we can see even now. The seduction of the closed-but-shiny approach has to be overcome.

This isn't a subject we can distill into simple post-by-post exchanges. I'm trying, but I see the futility.

[roger_27]

ysss and gerbick: the point I was making has to do with the ultimate consequences of walled gardens for consumers. Sure, cheap apps and high service are seductive... but ultimately unsustainable as a combined business model. That and reduced choice will eventually wear on even the most ardent supporters of such approaches. As history shows, higher costs to consumers will be the ultimate outcome.

like alternative fuels (open to whatever you want to do) vs gasoline (regulated, controled, readily available anywhere, prices are controlled and screw us all)

[Texrat]

Perfect analogy roger_27! Wish I'd thought of it.

[jnwi]

Perfect analogy roger_27! Wish I'd thought of it.

When in doubt, use a car analogy.

[gerbick]

I'll answer not for Corwin but in general: no one is banking on the moment. Nokia and others well understand that the ecosystem still has a while to gain viability. Problem is, if the Apples and Facebooks of the world have their way, it will never happen-- to our eventual detriment.

And that's the problem. As it stands, no alternative that really seems to be forward thinking and concrete has come from this "experiment" called Maemo quite yet. Nothing has solidified yet.

Ovi is going down a path - to the untrained eye, such as my own - of micropayments ($1 apps) and a store front and pretty darn much the same as the other systems that are much maligned around here surely but slowly.

This whole "walled garden" hatred has honestly produced nothing when all of this freedom has been given on the N900. Absolutely nothing so far. An odd upgrade path that's not fully laid out by corporate (yet), a total lack of apps that improve upon functionality, developers waiting to hear if their apps will be ok in the next iteration fully, already installed apps not updated, et al.

If that's freedom, it stinks. Being able to pop open terminal, gain root on a tacked on phone experience on a tablet isn't freedom. It's being part of an experiment. One that if you have certain wants (like using the forward camera for Skype), needs (like syncing to a Mac) or desires (PR 1.2) then... you're probably upset, disgruntled or disenfranchised.

If I want to code Python on the go though... maaaaaaaaaaan I'd be in love. But I'm not part of that group - I do that on my laptop already. I want the aforesaid things... and won't get it despite being so "free" to do so/get it. Hasn't happened yet.

[Texrat]

This whole "walled garden" hatred has honestly produced nothing when all of this freedom has been given on the N900. Absolutely nothing so far. An odd upgrade path that's not fully laid out by corporate (yet), a total lack of apps that improve upon functionality, developers waiting to hear if their apps will be ok in the next iteration fully, already installed apps not updated, et al.

If that's freedom, it stinks. Being able to pop open terminal, gain root on a tacked on phone experience on a tablet isn't freedom. It's being part of an experiment. One that if you have certain wants (like using the forward camera for Skype), needs (like syncing to a Mac) or desires (PR 1.2) then... you're probably upset, disgruntled or disenfranchised.
.

Gerbick, you're too smart to trivialize the issue like you just did. "Hatred"??? Come on-- that's sophomoric. C-.

I'll gladly debate this subject on objective merits but not THAT. :p

[jnwi]

This whole "walled garden" hatred has honestly produced nothing when all of this freedom has been given on the N900. Absolutely nothing so far.

I wouldn't go that far, but I've been thinking about the same thing for a while. Choosing the N900 because of hate won't result in anything productive. We have to be actually interested in making something better, not just sticking it to the man.

Gerbick, you're too smart to trivialize the issue like you just did. "Hatred"??? Come on-- that's sophomoric.

No, I think he has a point. How many of us have bought the N900 as a kneejerk reaction against Apple rather than having a plan? People like you have been here for a long time, but I was happy using Symbian until idealism brought me here. That's nice and everything, but I haven't actually contributed anything.

[Texrat]

No, I think he has a point. How many of us have bought the N900 as a kneejerk reaction against Apple rather than having a plan? People like you have been here for a long time, but I was happy using Symbian until idealism brought me here. That's nice and everything, but I haven't actually contributed anything.

A point that's actually marginal and not a reflection of the big picture I'm addressing-- and gerbick did respond to me.

In other words I saw the straw gathering... ;)

[gerbick]

Gerbick, you're too smart to trivialize the issue like you just did. "Hatred"??? Come on-- that's sophomoric. C-.

I'll gladly debate this subject on objective merits but not THAT. :p

Please don't drag this into overblown pedantic or semantic trivia based on the weight of words without taking into context the conversational intonation of my chosen verbiage. Simply put, I'm using connotation, not denotation of any variation of the word "hatred".

If it suits you, use the word "dislike" if that will get a better response.

If I were using the word "iPhone", then hatred (denotation) would be pretty damn accurate given the knee-jerk reactions around here sometimes.

Now, with that said, don't dismiss what I'm saying. Simply put, all of this freedom has netted not much. Like my father once said... "people take freedom as to meaning they can do a whole lot of nothing..."

And that's what I see. A fractured bunch, waiting on updates and apps with no real corporate apps in sight, on a platform that can compile a few languages that support the admin types on their phone that if they're not careful might lead to a re-flash but no real attempts at an expansion of the phone as a platform - outside of the wifi hotspot app, I admit that is pretty darn fly.

The freedom to do everything has so far produced nothing.

And yes... I'm totally playing devil's advocate ;)

[kojacker]

This whole "walled garden" hatred has honestly produced nothing when all of this freedom has been given on the N900. Absolutely nothing so far. An odd upgrade path that's not fully laid out by corporate (yet), a total lack of apps that improve upon functionality, developers waiting to hear if their apps will be ok in the next iteration fully, already installed apps not updated, et al..
The "walled garden", through it's closedness perhaps inadvertently, provides direction, cohesion, and leadership. There's a path to follow. It makes it simpler for the vendor to provide things, like a commercial app store, because it knows the type of apps that will be supplied through it. Documentation and apis can be developed knowing there are only a subset of languages that will be used, books start appearing on Amazon as the target audience is much more defined. End users aren't bothered how the app was written or if it was deved on locked down iphone sdk on a required Mac or open source Eclipse, only what that app does for them. This open sourced experiment of the n900 seems to offer plenty of potential but along with that are more complexities, fragmentation, and very little leadership from Nokia. And that's reflected in application development and customer base.

[wmarone]

This whole "walled garden" hatred has honestly produced nothing when all of this freedom has been given on the N900. Absolutely nothing so far.
That's Nokia dropping the ball, it says nothing about openness.

If that's freedom, it stinks. Being able to pop open terminal, gain root on a tacked on phone experience on a tablet isn't freedom.
Control on that level is freedom. Having to fight the vendor for control is the antithesis of freedom.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the Apple ecosystem, IMO, except for how Apple denies users the ability to side load software. I would have far less of an issue with it if you could do so without having to fight Apple to do it.

[gerbick]

The "walled garden", through it's closedness perhaps inadvertently, provides direction, cohesion, and leadership.

Don't take it personal by me snipping the rest of your reply; however that's what I'm ultimately building up to.

Nokia can, should, has had a multitude of chances to lead, direct and give this platform the cohesion from the announcement of Maemo5 to now MeeGo. And they've yet to do it.

And to be honest, I'm not so sure that Intel's influence will be enough to do it with MeeGo. We shall see, but my expectations are so low mainly because of prior experiences with the 770 and N810.

Nokia isn't seizing the opportunity to direct, even on this "wide open" platform when they should.

[Texrat]

Please don't drag this into overblown pedantic or semantic trivia based on the weight of words without taking into context the conversational intonation of my chosen verbiage. Simply put, I'm using connotation, not denotation of any variation of the word "hatred".

I dragged nothing anywhere gerbick. You're on another of your rants where you hyperfocus on irrelevant aspects of the issue.

Forget fringe elements and reactionary motives. People driving open source solutions are not doing so out of negative motivations but rather positive ones. And it's more than semantics because your statements are right in line with the dangerous Microsoft and Apple FUD that has been working against the success of open source for years.

Blaming rabid adherents for the state of the solution is disingenuous. The problems with open source lie entirely within the political elements that seek to perpetuate a tired old status quo that needs to die so we can finally move on to what's next.

As the open-closed war continues to harden, things are going to get ugly for all of us. And if closed source wins (as it seems to be now with ridiculous software patents, bizarre IP protection schemes and the like), we're ALL screwed.

And as we contendly lap at the closed app store pools, we are applying the ointment to our own asses.

[silvermountain]

This whole "walled garden" hatred has honestly produced nothing when all of this freedom has been given on the N900. Absolutely nothing so far. An odd upgrade path that's not fully laid out by corporate (yet), a total lack of apps that improve upon functionality, developers waiting to hear if their apps will be ok in the next iteration fully, already installed apps not updated, et al.

If that's freedom, it stinks. Being able to pop open terminal, gain root on a tacked on phone experience on a tablet isn't freedom. It's being part of an experiment.

Probably the most honest sum up of how this experiment is failing. In three years Nokia have moved at a snail's pace to accomplish an OS and device that others did in shorter time.

No real blame can be put on 'the community'. It is what it is, to a large extent a rather vile bunch of Apple haters that places more importance on repeating "I can gain root" and calling people "trolls" whenever an expression that differs is brought up.

The real blame falls on Nokia for half-assing the os being open sourced, for not following up on software updates on delivered applications, for mis-managing what could had been a good community of development (there are moderators where...?) and for having very poor forward planning and realizing the importance of getting things to market.

Then again, it's Nokia's money and they can do whatever they want with it. I still adore my N810 and I am extremely grateful to the people that still develop for it and I am thankful to Nokia for developing that hardware.

In the end, if you as a user or developer have enjoyed or even gotten value from this experiment then where's the harm? It's a tablet/phone/gadget. End of the day it doesn't matter. Once it's all said and done the only semi-permanent stain will be the one on Nokia. Not for 'being brave' to try out something new (which is great) but for showing a surprising amount of incompetency and ignorance in the space which will, personally, influence my purchase pattern for years to come.

[gerbick]

That's Nokia dropping the ball, it says nothing about openness.

In such a wide open platform, direction needs to be offered. In open source, too many ideas, design by committee, or even free thought still needs to be somewhat directed to make sure their solutions and software work on a platform (for instance). I still see both separately... and lacking.

Control on that level is freedom. Having to fight the vendor for control is the antithesis of freedom.

Not one argument there.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the Apple ecosystem, IMO, except for how Apple denies users the ability to side load software. I would have far less of an issue with it if you could do so without having to fight Apple to do it.

And here is where I go on record stating that I quite dislike Apple's ecosystem. Not because I want root. Not because I want to run Flash. Not even because I'm not forced to develop using their mandated languages and not use wrappers around code languages I know better.

I dislike the fact that my money has a louder voice than my opinion inside of the Apple ecosystem. I'm not even an user. I'm a source of income only. I'm a dollar. I'm a number.

With Maemo, I could have a voice... even one that the community might get behind. But not there.

And yet... I'm starting to feel as ignored by Nokia as I do with Apple. "Thanks for your N900 purchase... we'll update you when we feel like it..." - Nokia

Gee. Thanks. Can I at least get a few games outside of Angry Birds for it? Can I sync with my Mac without having to hack it and lose that ability next PR update?

(for the record, I don't own a N900)

[gerbick]

I dragged nothing anywhere gerbick. You're on another of your rants where you hyperfocus on irrelevant aspects of the issue.

Always so personal man. Is this how counter-thought is greeted?

Forget fringe elements and reactionary motives. People driving open source solutions are not doing so out of negative motivations but rather positive ones.

Please quote where I said something that supports this. I said the walled garden hate around here. Not open source. You misread me totally there.

And it's more than semantics because your statements are right in line with the dangerous Microsoft and Apple FUD that has been working against the success of open source for years.

Erm, not quite. N900 has afforded people freedom of choice and ability; however I don't quite see the benefits without Nokia's direction. Nokia is lacking in that department at the moment.

My stance has nothing to do with Apple nor Microsoft's stances either.

Blaming rabid adherents for the state of the solution is disingenuous. The problems with open source lie entirely within the political elements that seek to perpetuate a tired old status quo that needs to die so we can finally move on to what's next.

And you somehow quickly overlooked that I'm stating that the alternative(s) aren't compelling, somehow. Not yet. And it should be. But not yet... somehow. Makes zero sense to me. Freedom is a good thing. It's being wasted right now, imho.

As the open-closed war continues to harden, things are going to get ugly for all of us. And if closed source wins (as it seems to be now with ridiculous software patents, bizarre IP protection schemes and the like), we're ALL screwed.

Bah. I'll have absolutely nothing to do with open-closed wars. Zealots offend my senses.

And as we contendly lap at the closed app store pools, we are applying the ointment to our own asses.

As opposed to patiently waiting for Nokia to come down the hill with news of what's forthcoming? Grease up that *** nicely.

And stop taking my comments somewhere I'm nowhere near. I swear... sometimes you guys take statements to prior arguments with other folks that don't include me. I'm neither open source or closed source. I've stated it over and over in prior statements - I'm a consumer... what I use and like, I support. I also like to have certain things that support my stance as a consumer (mostly) and that's my platform.

None of this open-closed source nonsense. Save that noise for the right person. I ain't it. Read my words literally... I pick and choose them carefully.

[ysss]

(Excuse me as I'm about to push more buttons, but I think there's some truth to this...)

The freedom that I've witnessed so far here is mainly the freedom to scratch your own @$$. No one really cares about how the platform (maemo, n900, or nokia) competes in the 'big game' out there.... furthermore, Nokia isn't giving much direction (or talking at all) to the community at large in this sense.

For example, El Jobs made a comment (actually he's spewing a non-answer to sidestep a question, but whatever) about how people should go to Android for porns. That should be an obvious hint that there might be a 'market' for porn-friendly phones out there... but where's the retaliation of "HERE'S THE MOTHERLODE OF HANDHELD PORN RIGHT HERE ON MAEMO!! WHERE YOU'RE FREE TO DO WHAT YOUR HEART (AND C**K) WANTS"? I saw a number of threads dissing Apple and nothing really happened here.

Most users here think appealing to the mainstream as something dirty. A basic mis-alignment of interest such as this should serve as a big warning sign of loss of coherence and efficiency in propelling this whole boat forward.

[fatalsaint]

Gerbrick has some clear points. And I myself have had issues over the years with how Nokia has managed the entire like of NIT products.

But the way I've seen it, and continue to see from here - is that Nokia has produced a series of devices that are the closest to the perfect devices I've seen (I loved my N810, and hope to love my N900) - and the only devices that I can feel I'm using and supporting without feeling completely like a sell out.

Hopefully, MeeGo being more of a open development process and visible to the public will be better. However, what I fear and don't want to see happen is Nokia+Intel making a base.. and then saying "K, we're done. Ask the community what's next."

Even in the Open Source world of Linux you need a backing by a dedicated group of people to propel forward. The off-time, night coders of the community don't have the time to dedicate full-time-job-like effort to the project. This is why things like Ubuntu, Red Hat, SuSE and Mandrake are big - they have a central core group that continues to work on the product; and then they take input from the community on where to go next.

[toto29820]

Travel to Europe or China to check out, everyone is holding a Nokia.

[Texrat]

Gerbick my apologies; I wasn't meaning to be personal, just noting what has been my observation when we lock horns. You've even acknowledged that tendency before so I didn't think the comment would be an issue.

I'm also confused by your rebuttal above based on your choice to rebut me earlier. But maybe my position was unclear. Your replies certainly are now to me...

Anyway I'm spent on this and was hoping to keep the talk at a higher level. Too many passions appear to have been ignited for that though so I'm taking 5.

[silvermountain]

Travel to Europe or China to check out, everyone is holding a Nokia.

Just being back from BOTH Europe and China this year I can tell you they are not.

[x61]

Travel to Europe or China to check out, everyone is holding a Nokia.
That's the problem. Instead of focusing on high class quality phones, Nokia is much concern about making some cheap quantity phone for the masses.

[gerbick]

Gerbrick has some clear points. And I myself have had issues over the years with how Nokia has managed the entire like of NIT products.

But the way I've seen it, and continue to see from here - is that Nokia has produced a series of devices that are the closest to the perfect devices I've seen (I loved my N810, and hope to love my N900) - and the only devices that I can feel I'm using and supporting without feeling completely like a sell out.

Hopefully, MeeGo being more of a open development process and visible to the public will be better. However, what I fear and don't want to see happen is Nokia+Intel making a base.. and then saying "K, we're done. Ask the community what's next."

Even in the Open Source world of Linux you need a backing by a dedicated group of people to propel forward. The off-time, night coders of the community don't have the time to dedicate full-time-job-like effort to the project. This is why things like Ubuntu, Red Hat, SuSE and Mandrake are big - they have a central core group that continues to work on the product; and then they take input from the community on where to go next.

Bingo.

I agree 100%. Nicely stated.

[silvermountain]

That's the problem. Instead of focusing on high class quality phones, Nokia is much concern about making some cheap quantity phone for the masses.

How does that relate to the poorly phrased statement that everyone in Europe and China are using Nokia devices?

[Texrat]

Even in the Open Source world of Linux you need a backing by a dedicated group of people to propel forward. The off-time, night coders of the community don't have the time to dedicate full-time-job-like effort to the project. This is why things like Ubuntu, Red Hat, SuSE and Mandrake are big - they have a central core group that continues to work on the product; and then they take input from the community on where to go next.

Agreed, and I've said as much many, many times.

People just need to understand that invoking "walled gardens" automatically hauls in open source.... IP...software patents... etc. Like I said though, this topic is wayyy too complex for our little post-by-post punditry.

[kojacker]

Travel to Europe or China to check out, everyone is holding a Nokia.
I travel to the developing markets in Asia quite frequently (4 times/year) and my experience is quite different, somewhere like the Philippines is still Nokia land where Nokia and the 'N's are almost like a status symbol. China used to be all about Nokia but there is a tornado of Android development sweeping right through it from Shanghai to Chengdu, the marketshare advantage that Nokia enjoyed for so long is quite rapidly being eroded.

[x61]

How does that relate to the poorly phrased statement that everyone in Europe and China are using Nokia devices?

Read the initial article...

[gerbick]

Gerbick my apologies; I wasn't meaning to be personal, just noting what has been my observation when we lock horns. You've even acknowledged that tendency before so I didn't think the comment would be an issue.

No need to apologize; I was trying to keep the focus on my words and intent and not any personal feelings. No need for those in a discussion on this subject. That way, we avoid locking horns and keep discussing...

I'm also confused by your rebuttal above based on your choice to rebut me earlier. But maybe my position was unclear. Your replies certainly are now to me...

I twisted a bit to play devil's advocate but my stance remains the same. The freedom granted by the N900 was not utilized correctly by Nokia. In fact, please read fatalsaint's excellent reply earlier. He basically has stated more clearly than I ever could what I totally mean.

Anyway I'm spent on this and was hoping to keep the talk at a higher level. Too many passions appear to have been ignited for that though so I'm taking 5.

Have a beer on me bud.

[silvermountain]

Read the initial article...

I read the quote that you replied to.

[Texrat]

I twisted a bit to play devil's advocate but my stance remains the same. The freedom granted by the N900 was not utilized correctly by Nokia. In fact, please read fatalsaint's excellent reply earlier. He basically has stated more clearly than I ever could what I totally mean. .

And as I just said, I fully agree. In fact any regular here should know that by now as much as I've hammered the point over the past 5 years. It's just that the usual topic creep got out of control and once the cat was out of the bag resistance was futile. I reaize some people want to selectively focus on little parcels of the subject to the exclusion of other aspects but it's way too big to whittle down like some are trying.

Multiple metaphors brought to you by IBM, Dr. Seuss and Star Trek.

[junooni]

and just like i mentioned in my previous post and all other posts on this specific issue, its becomes a war btw the ppl who believe that n900 was justmade for linux lovers and developers and programmers and not for the general public.
and like always this entire convo or debate or argument just doesnt go anywhere, all these die hard linux lovers nokia defenders talk alot and have a giant arsonal of fancy words and fancy explanations but really what exactly have they brought themselves on the table to defend the OS or Nokia, or let's even subtract them outta picture and what eactly has nokia done in reflection to all these comments or all of those other threads. if you really ask me nothing,nothing at all.
As much as I love my n900 for its hardware power which is second to non we should all accept that N900 sucks A** when it comes to softweare and i blame Nokia in all entirety..Now having said that I know for fact im gonna get bombarded again with those linux lovers & nokia defenders but hey man as yall have a thing to defend nokia after all that I have a thing to poitn teh fact out...

[fatalsaint]

As much as I love my n900 for its hardware power which is second to non we should all accept that N900 sucks A** when it comes to softweare and i blame Nokia in all entirety..Now having said that I know for fact im gonna get bombarded again with those linux lovers & nokia defenders but hey man as yall have a thing to defend nokia after all that I have a thing to poitn teh fact out...

This is still inaccurate. Apple did not make the 1 million apps in their App Store. Google does not make but a tiny tiny fraction of like 5 total apps in their Market.

As far as applications go - that is on the community.

As far as the operating system goes - that is on the Core Group (be them Nokia, Intel, Ubuntu, or whatever.)

The Operating System and default apps for the phone should be completely functional and bug-free. That is up to Nokia to ensure. As well, Nokia should have ensured a certain level of compatibility with their other "steps" of tablets. Nokia should also legitimately confirm or deny things as far as the future of the OS/project instead of hints here and there; or with a denial try and "spin" it to a positive with a "BUT" which just clouds the issue more.

These are faults that can be directed to Nokia. The amount of Apps or quality of Apps I don't really fault Nokia for. All the tools are there to make great apps... it's getting a "community" motivated enough to do so is the problem.

[ysss]

@fatalsaint: the platform's steward/owner is generally the one that designs and operates the ecosystem and its incentive systems to propel it in a certain direction. (parts of the ecosystem: dev tools, dev reachout and guidance programs, marketplace, marketing, etc)

Is simply being 'open' enough to motivate the (potential) developers here to compete against those that are in Apple or Android camp? Is this even a competition in that sense?

[geneven]

There was an excellent series of articles in this week's Economist (tomorrow the new issue comes out) about developing countries and how they are beating other countries because they are focusing on making things that poor people can afford and figuring out how to go low-cost. Nokia was one of the few companies mentioned that understood this and was joining in the low-cost fight.

For an example, they said that a machine used to do open-heart surgery can be bought in I think India for something like $3,000. In the US a similar machine would cost ten times as much. The Economist added that the two machines had similar success rates. That was just one example of how these countries are cutting health care costs.

[fatalsaint]

@fatalsaint: the platform's steward/owner is generally the one that designs and operates the ecosystem and its incentive systems to propel it in a certain direction. (parts of the ecosystem: dev tools, dev reachout and guidance programs, marketplace, marketing, etc)

Is simply being 'open' enough to motivate the (potential) developers here to compete against those that are in Apple or Android camp? Is this even a competition in that sense?

Well.. of the millions of Linux applications out there how many were made under a contest? And how many were made because someone wanted to support the platform or OS?

Does Ubuntu do developer "shoot offs" with rewards for the best app or anything?

I'm not saying they don't... just.. never seen one personally.

[hackfanatic]

I believe this phone still has the potential to be an iphone killer... ppl all round the world still have their eyes on this device.. The OS is awesome, but not what end users are looking for..

I really don't get what nokia is upto ?!

[junooni]

I believe this phone still has the potential to be an iphone killer... ppl all round the world still have their eyes on this device.. The OS is awesome, but not what end users are looking for..

I really don't get what nokia is upto ?!

this is just the right statement and i agree with you a 1000%, i dont think there is any competition for this device when it comes to its hardware, its one of a kind. But it will become flawless and a mega hit if we load it with strogn software and apps.

[wmarone]

this is just the right statement and i agree with you a 1000%, i dont think there is any competition for this device when it comes to its hardware, its one of a kind. But it will become flawless and a mega hit if we load it with strogn software and apps.

On the contrary, the N900's hardware is nothing special. It shares a CPU with the Palm Pre and DROID, among others. The DROID has more NAND for the rootfs, and other phones have more RAM.

The key thing about the N900 has always been its software stack, which is built on existing open source technologies instead of proprietary stacks or re-inventing the wheel.

[junooni]

On the contrary, the N900's hardware is nothing special. It shares a CPU with the Palm Pre and DROID, among others. The DROID has more NAND for the rootfs, and other phones have more RAM.

The key thing about the N900 has always been its software stack, which is built on existing open source technologies instead of proprietary stacks or re-inventing the wheel.

perhaps ur right.. but i tell u from a non-geeky point of view, i dont find these specs in any fone at the moment,
dual camera for video conferencing, dedicated camera with dual led flash with carl zaiess lens, dual fm transmitter, amazing qwerty kboard, video quality.

[nosa101]

I think its funny that some people buy a phone with a completely new os and expect a gazillion apps on the spot. When the iPhone came out, I doubt there were a 100 apps at the start. Same thing with the g1. People seem quick to forget the fact that the maemo 5 is a n00b in the smartphone game. There's no way it can compete with the iPhone or the android at this point.

What it does have that the others don't is potential? That potential is dependent on the consumers. If people are willing to help the device grow (I.e. Contribute to app development) then the phone will be a success.

I can't code or anything close to it but when i was proud to show off my contributions to the development of witter. It might not be much but it is something. When I got the n900, I was stuck with Dabr and brizzly. Now i have witter and tweego.

If you want an app suggest it. Contribute to its development. Don't just sit on your computer and go off on how there are no apps

[mobiledivide]

Without taking a position on either side, I would say that maemo was probably the best positioned OS for an expanding definition of mobile computing. The much maligned Eldar Murtizan had an article where he (http://www.nokiausers.net/General/Eldar-Murtazin-s-take-on-Nokia-S60-Maemo-Symbian.html) spoke of their vertical strategy of having an OS going throughout the product line.

Nokia has the capability in 2011 of having a diverse product portfolio consisting of low priced but very capable smartphones with Symbian for developing markets and ex-feature phone users. You can see this in their announcement of sub $200 qwerty devices.
Next you have Meego powering their high end smartphones/tablets/netbooks and whatever else. Nokia has the entire OVI ecosystem (music, files, email, maps, PIM) to deploy across a system of phones and netbooks. Nokia seems to not want to play the one device game so integrating the crossplatform development using Qt was cooked up as their answer to fragmented development.

Basically Nokia is losing the 2010 battle and others have caught up so far, but they have a much better chance at success later in the year (Q4) going into 2011, whether they succeed or not remains to be seen. The lucky thing for them is that as they well know the mobile world moves in 12-18 month cycles and things can go really well for them very quickly even though their last few quarters have been disappointing.

[Corwin]

Gerbick, Texrat, I think we are basically agreeing on different perspectives of the same thing. Thanks to everybody to such a constructive and great thread, I really enjoyed it.

Just to make one more thing clearer, when Texrat reffered to 'the beast' and 'might drag us with it', I understood that he is refering to the way the environment changes. Vendors can suddenly control the only way any content comes to my device - this is a nightmare.

To me, its not about root. It is about control over content. Control over anything you see - or not - on your phone. Pros and Contras of a walled garden (take a gated community) are obvious, we all know that. Problem is, this kind of power would require a wise king. Well, anybody remembers why we do not have kings anymore? And BTW, APPL really is NOT the one I would like to see there.

Regarding this and the fact that 'mobile phones' have evolved to 'Smartphones' and are evolving at even higher speed, becoming the #1 device for any kind of content consumption, I personally have to say that I really fear this kind of control.

Best regards,
Corwin

[Texrat]

Bingo, Corwin, thanks for making it clearer!

EDIT: here's what I find interesting-- change the context a bit and the people supporting controlled content might oppose it. Why is control okay on phones but not desktops? The only real difference these days is mobility. But people will insist their desktop internet should be open (via universal browser) yet be okay with a phone that restricts them. No straw man, either-- I've seen it.

Basically Nokia is losing the 2010 battle and others have caught up so far, but they have a much better chance at success later in the year (Q4) going into 2011, whether they succeed or not remains to be seen. The lucky thing for them is that as they well know the mobile world moves in 12-18 month cycles and things can go really well for them very quickly even though their last few quarters have been disappointing.

Hey-- quit hacking my draft blog articles! :D

[Mixu]

I think its funny that some people buy a phone with a completely new os and expect a gazillion apps on the spot. When the iPhone came out, I doubt there were a 100 apps at the start. Same thing with the g1. People seem quick to forget the fact that the maemo 5 is a n00b in the smartphone game. There's no way it can compete with the iPhone or the android at this point.


It's also funny that N900 owners here don't realize that Maemo is already 5 years old. I came much before iPhone OS and Android. Sure, Maemo didn't have phone functionality in the beginning but so what? How many applications depend on the phone functionality anyway? IMO, this is not good excuse why the Maemo platform is behind the rest in application development.

[nosa101]

It's also funny that N900 owners here don't realize that Maemo is already 5 years old. I came much before iPhone OS and Android. Sure, Maemo didn't have phone functionality in the beginning but so what? How many applications depend on the phone functionality anyway? IMO, this is not good excuse why the Maemo platform is behind the rest in application development.

From what I understand maemo 5 =\= previous iterations of maemo. The 770, 800 and 810 have more in common than they do with the 900.

[silvermountain]

I think its funny that some people buy a phone with a completely new os and expect a gazillion apps on the spot. When the iPhone came out, I doubt there were a 100 apps at the start. Same thing with the g1. People seem quick to forget the fact that the maemo 5 is a n00b in the smartphone game. There's no way it can compete with the iPhone or the android at this point.


Maemo as an OS is 4+ years old. It is no one's but Nokia's fault that an OS was not developed in FOUR years that could span multiple devices without serious backward compatibility issues,


What it does have that the others don't is potential?

Not sure what you mean by that the other, now more successful alternatives, have no potential but Maemo who have not gained traction in 4+ years have.

[Texrat]

From what I understand maemo 5 =\= previous iterations of maemo. The 770, 800 and 810 have more in common than they do with the 900.

Yeah, but objectively: more effort should have been put into crafting an actual ecosystem. That would have required a larger investment than was put into the project initially.

[wmarone]

That would have required a larger investment than was put into the project initially.

Might it not be said that sticking the cellular subsystem into the N900 raised its profile higher than Nokia expected?

[gryedouge]

I think that what the majority of end users (be you dev or not) are wanting from Nokia is something similar from the MeeGo devs...

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=622709#post622709

This is extremely helpful and generally makes us aware of what is to come.

If Nokia could do this, then, I am sure, we would all be a lot more happier and accepting and understanding of where this journey is going.

[fatalsaint]

Yeah, but objectively: more effort should have been put into crafting an actual ecosystem. That would have required a larger investment than was put into the project initially.

This was one of the things I was referring to.

The whole Step X of 4 or Step X of 5 or whatever is a great idea... but you can't all of a sudden at step 3 or 4 just decide you want to completely redo everything.

The N900 actually became Step 1 of 2.. and all of the previous steps were dropped off into a black hole.

[Texrat]

Might it not be said that sticking the cellular subsystem into the N900 raised its profile higher than Nokia expected?

It looks that way, but I don't think so. That was fully expected. Now, the N800's sales-- THOSE were a surprise.

Wish I could say more, but I still hold out hope of SOMEday being rehired. :D

This was one of the things I was referring to.

The whole Step X of 4 or Step X of 5 or whatever is a great idea... but you can't all of a sudden at step 3 or 4 just decide you want to completely redo everything.

The N900 actually became Step 1 of 2.. and all of the previous steps were dropped off into a black hole.

Yah. Development cycles should have been shorter and more furious. Do a crapload of in-house real-use testing on raw prototypes. Eat a lot of tablet-flavored dog food. And put out an industrial variant long before a hobbyist much less consumer-oriented device.

EDIT: oops, pasted wrong quote! fixed.

[geneven]

I imagine when Meego gets here they will be saying "give us a break, this is our first cooperative venture with Intel and you are upset that things don't work perfectly??" In other words, everything anyone does is the first time for that actual action; it isn't really that good of an excuse.

But i'm happy with the N900, it doesn't need an excuse as far as I'm concerned.

[ysss]

@texrat: a numberless graph, perhaps? :D

[Texrat]

@texrat: a numberless graph, perhaps? :D

Heck I don't think any were even made!

[ysss]

Heck I don't think any were even made!

lol... so in what order of magnitude were the miscalculations? :D

[Texrat]

lol... so in what order of magnitude were the miscalculations? :D

Oh, I'm probably wrong. Surely reports and charts were created. I was too far at the end of the chain to see them.

But I do know that N800 demand caught some by surprise. It's apparent polish worked against it... as weird as that is to say.

[ysss]

"apparently we can't forget poland..."

er... sorry, what did you mean about apparent polish? :D

[nosa101]

Yeah, but objectively: more effort should have been put into crafting an actual ecosystem. That would have required a larger investment than was put into the project initially.

I'll give you that. Nokia deserves some blame for that.

[nosa101]

Maemo as an OS is 4+ years old. It is no one's but Nokia's fault that an OS was not developed in FOUR years that could span multiple devices without serious backward compatibility issues,



Not sure what you mean by that the other, now more successful alternatives, have no potential but Maemo who have not gained traction in 4+ years have.

See the original iPhone. It has gone as far as the updates can carry it. The n900 is getting qt 4.6 and and possibly qt mobility. Even the Bluetooth is compatible with future technologies. The n900 is capable of running meego too. There is room for growth on the other hand the original iPhone has peaked.

As much as we like to believe that maemo has been around for years, you need to accept that maemo 5 is a different animal. The move from tablet to smartphone was a huge jump. A jump that can be equated to starting afresh.

Sure, it is nokia's fault for not developing it as you would like. But no use crying over spilt milk. Maemo as a tablet-only os is dead. Maemo as a next gen os is alive and it starts with the n900. You can come off as elitist as you like. It doesn't change the fact that anything pre-n900 is dead

[acano]

I personally think that nokia became the number one given small steps, not in on step. I think that nokia is still the number one, they are not loosing money, they are all the time improving and building step by step something that in the future will be really great.

Another think I like from Nokia is that they say things as they are. No need to say that they are the number one when they are not, like other enterprise.

Let see what will come.....

[un-named_user]

Others have caught up to Nokia for reasons that are their own doing.

The N95 was a great exmaple of them being able to lead in the market. the iPhone however is an even better example of Nokia not being able to react efficiently or fast enough to changing market conditions.

Nokia's main problems stem from the fact of not having a clear product strategy. While its great that they have a bazzilion phones out there. But, that doesn't help if they are in the volume sector as it'll make them no significant profit, period.

1.
I suppose simplifying product naming like E,C,X series is a start. But they should look at standardising hardware specs too at some level. I cant imagine the overhead it brings having so many different HW platforms.

They should make tier 1,2,3 level hardware base specs and stick to them.

Why? Cause it helps in sustaining a platform easier.

2.
Nokia has lost the plot on the software side, which is the basic requirement of success these days.

Fragmentation of symbian in silly feature packs is a grave they dug themselves. QT is great but I cant imagine how silly it is for them to expect portability, when I keep reading about meego/symbian specific APIs. Look at the hardware of the next expected Symbian3 device. The screen is nHd intead of Wvga(Meego). and that brings parity within their own product lines & if they stick to the silly nHD, they stand to be inferior very soon.

I don't even want to go the topic of silly product diiferentiation strategies of the N or the E series.

Look at their desktop suite. Its not multi-platform and keeps getting bloated every revision I see.

3.
Ahhh.. the wholy grail.. The UI as everyone keeps bickering about. Functional is what i like, but thats not somwthing that would make me recommend a device to a non-geek friend of mine.

Symbian touch is about the most clunky UI I have ever seen, its like "inconsistencyRus".

Maemo while much better is a case of lacking come common UI design sense. E.g. look at the space wasted by the top bar in all applications, look at the extra step needed to jump between 2 fullscreen browser windows(I installed ShorcutD to mitigate it).

A few essential buttons like the N810 or even android would help. But where is that sense?

Imagine the difficutly if we had potrait mode, try hitting the menu/close button then.

Bottom line.
Nokia needs a consistent, easy and sustainable hardware/software/apps ecosystem or they stand to lag behind in all aspects that matter eventually.

This is the place where having a draconian head to provide focus helps. But nokia appears to be the case of the left hand not knowing what the right is upto :(

PS: Before anybody thinks of this as a rant. How many of you would recommend a N900 to a friend? I wont, even though I love mine to bits. In fact somehow I cant think of any Nokia phone except the E71/E72 that I'd ever recommend. Doesn't look good to me at least.

[benny1967]

What I don't fully understand is:

Nokia reported today that their smartphone marketshare went up to 41% in Q1/2010. It was 40% in Q4/2009 and 38% in Q1/2009. So when it comes to smartphones, people buy Nokia. Period.

Last thing I remember about Apple was that their market share was around 16% and declining.

How do these figures match the "Nokia is doomed" and "Nokia has lost 2010" speech?

[mrojas]

What I don't fully understand is:

Nokia reported today that their smartphone marketshare went up to 41% in Q1/2010. It was 40% in Q4/2009 and 38% in Q1/2009. So when it comes to smartphones, people buy Nokia. Period.

Last thing I remember about Apple was that their market share was around 16% and declining.

How do these figures match the "Nokia is doomed" and "Nokia has lost 2010" speech?

People is stupid enough to think there is no profits in the low end market, and that something flashy = success.

Henry Ford and the T-Model would beg to disagree.

[junooni]

What I don't fully understand is:

Nokia reported today that their smartphone marketshare went up to 41% in Q1/2010. It was 40% in Q4/2009 and 38% in Q1/2009. So when it comes to smartphones, people buy Nokia. Period.

Last thing I remember about Apple was that their market share was around 16% and declining.

How do these figures match the "Nokia is doomed" and "Nokia has lost 2010" speech?

wonder if you care:
http://www.gsmarena.com/apple_q1_results_are_out_impressive_as_usual-news-1593.php

http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_q1_results_are_out_looking_good_but_symbian^ 3_gets_delayed-news-1600.php

now keep in mind, its a comparison btw nokia's various smart phones vs just iphone alone. so lets do the math.:cool:

[mrojas]

Others have caught up to Nokia for reasons that are their own doing.

The N95 was a great exmaple of them being able to lead in the market. the iPhone however is an even better example of Nokia not being able to react efficiently or fast enough to changing market conditions.

Nokia's reaction, short-term, was the 5800 XM. Quite a success.

Nokia's main problems stem from the fact of not having a clear product strategy. While its great that they have a bazzilion phones out there. But, that doesn't help if they are in the volume sector as it'll make them no significant profit, period.

They do have a clear product strategy, based in the motto "One size doesn't fit all". It was presented crystal clear in Nokia World, in the presentation of Capital Markets, etc. Just google around for it.

The 3rd world market is in fact the market where the money is. The richest man of the world based his money in mobile in the developing world. Source: http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2010/03/carlos-slim-worlds-richest-person-made-his-money-with-mobile.html

1.
I suppose simplifying product naming like E,C,X series is a start. But they should look at standardising hardware specs too at some level. I cant imagine the overhead it brings having so many different HW platforms.

They should make tier 1,2,3 level hardware base specs and stick to them.

Why? Cause it helps in sustaining a platform easier.

The whole idea of Qt, of Symbian passed to the Foundation and MeeGo is precisely to make hardware irrelevant, as long is running Qt. In a sense, an OS is a virtualization layer between the HW and SW. That is why I know I can run Windows or Linux software on my PC, independently if its an Acer, Dell, Lenovo, etc.

2.
Nokia has lost the plot on the software side, which is the basic requirement of success these days.

Fragmentation of symbian in silly feature packs is a grave they dug themselves. QT is great but I cant imagine how silly it is for them to expect portability, when I keep reading about meego/symbian specific APIs. Look at the hardware of the next expected Symbian3 device. The screen is nHd intead of Wvga(Meego). and that brings parity within their own product lines & if they stick to the silly nHD, they stand to be inferior very soon.

I don't even want to go the topic of silly product diiferentiation strategies of the N or the E series.

While I don't like the differences between FP's and N and E series, it is clearly working for them (i.e: marketshare just grew, see post above mine).

3.
Ahhh.. the wholy grail.. The UI as everyone keeps bickering about. Functional is what i like, but thats not somwthing that would make me recommend a device to a non-geek friend of mine.

Symbian touch is about the most clunky UI I have ever seen, its like "inconsistencyRus".

Maemo while much better is a case of lacking come common UI design sense. E.g. look at the space wasted by the top bar in all applications, look at the extra step needed to jump between 2 fullscreen browser windows(I installed ShorcutD to mitigate it).

A few essential buttons like the N810 or even android would help. But where is that sense?

Imagine the difficutly if we had potrait mode, try hitting the menu/close button then.

And that is exactly why MeeGo is coming around, and why Symbian^3 and 4 are being designed.

Bottom line.
Nokia needs a consistent, easy and sustainable hardware/software/apps ecosystem or they stand to lag behind in all aspects that matter eventually.

Agreed, and they are working on it. That you have been unable to inform yourself adequately, or disagree with their decisions, doesn't invalidate them.

PS: Before anybody thinks of this as a rant. How many of you would recommend a N900 to a friend? I wont, even though I love mine to bits. In fact somehow I cant think of any Nokia phone except the E71/E72 that I'd ever recommend. Doesn't look good to me at least.

I have done so, and they are happy with their N900's.

One thing that I hate from Internet, is that anyone is free to spew their opinions, no matter how misinformed they are, and present it as the holy grail of truth. It is something that is happening in the media as well, sadly.

[Mixu]

As much as we like to believe that maemo has been around for years, you need to accept that maemo 5 is a different animal. The move from tablet to smartphone was a huge jump. A jump that can be equated to starting afresh.


I'm not expert in this area by any means so correct me if I'm wrong but these don't seem that big differences to me (Fremantle changes) (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle#Changes). Sure there's OpenGL ES but that's just for eye candy. What matters are the layers below UI. There you make or break compatibility. If Fremantle on N8x0 is totally impossible, why smart people behind Mer even started the project? So can you show me why the jump is bigger than I think?

[junooni]

I have done so, and they are happy with their N900's.

LOL Im sorry dude, but this is where u lose credibility and sound really unrealistic, i mean unless those ppl were one of those as in the other thread they are talking about the fella who doesnt even care to update the lates fw, other than that its just a rediculiouis to say they are happy.:rolleyes:
:D
Im sorry if I sound rude but hey man u were really off there with that statement. I mean this very community is the base for maemo users and it wont take u much longer to scroll around thru a very few threads and ull find out how many ppl are actually happy with N900.

[benny1967]

wonder if you care:
http://www.gsmarena.com/apple_q1_results_are_out_impressive_as_usual-news-1593.php

This says they sold 8.75 million iPhones, which would mean their market share for Q1/2010 is still at 16.6% (when it already was over 18% in Q3/2009)

[wmarone]

I mean this very community is the base for maemo users and it wont take u much longer to scroll around thru a very few threads and ull find out how many ppl are actually happy with N900.

The unhappy are usually the most vocal. maemo.org is likely a minority of users. You never hear about the ones who are happy with their device and don't bother to come here and create an account to say so.

But then, anything positive regarding the N900 is nonsense to you :P

[junooni]

This says they sold 8.75 million iPhones, which would mean their market share for Q1/2010 is still at 16.6% (when it already was over 18% in Q3/2009)

U got it!! ur smarter than i was considering you to be:D
the idea was its one iphone alone VS the entire fleet of Nokia's smart phones.:cool:

[junooni]

The unhappy are usually the most vocal. maemo.org is likely a minority of users. You never hear about the ones who are happy with their device and don't bother to come here and create an account to say so.

But then, anything positive regarding the N900 is nonsense to you :P

LOL! cus they dont have much to be happy about its very simple that the only reason they dont celebrate their hapiness cus the flaws are just too many and takes away the entire element of hapiness, but let's not forget there are those who are vocal who would just defend nokia no matter what..so..;)

[mrojas]

LOL Im sorry dude, but this is where u lose credibility and sound really unrealistic, i mean unless those ppl were one of those as in the other thread they are talking about the fella who doesnt even care to update the lates fw, other than that its just a rediculiouis to say they are happy.:rolleyes:
:D
Im sorry if I sound rude but hey man u were really off there with that statement. I mean this very community is the base for maemo users and it wont take u much longer to scroll around thru a very few threads and ull find out how many ppl are actually happy with N900.

I was asked if I would recommend the N900 to my friends. I did. 3 friends wanted smartphones, one of those a sysadmin (i.e.: power user), another is an accountant and another is a low level manager in a flight company (they got it through this guy actually).

The sysadmin and the manager got their N900 and they are quite happy for it. The sysadmin because it is Linux, and the manager because of the camera and media capabilities. The browser is a huge plus.

The accountant went for the 5800 XM.

I really don't care if you believe or no. However, it is to be noted that, unhappy people tend to be more vocal than happy ones.

[mrojas]

LOL! cus they dont have much to be happy about its very simple that the only reason they dont celebrate their hapiness cus the flaws are just too many and takes away the entire element of hapiness, but let's not forget there are those who are vocal who would just defend nokia no matter what..so..;)

If you are not happy, doesn't mean a big bunch of people can, and are.

[junooni]

However, it is to be noted that, unhappy people tend to be more vocal than happy ones.

Damn Rite they are.

[junooni]

If you are not happy, doesn't mean a big bunch of people can, and are.

LOL! :rolleyes:
as per my earlier post your just a happy shiny & funny guy.
I know u love Nokia so much, but please get ur head outta sand and breath the real air, perhaps then ull come to know what happening around u.;) or at least on this forum.

[benny1967]

the idea was its one iphone alone VS the entire fleet of Nokia's smart phones.:cool:

It's not one iPhone. And even if... it's one platform vs. another. iPhone vs. S60. (I think we can safely ignore Maemo.) And S60 wins.

(I don't really understand the "only few Apple model vs. so many Nokia models" talk... Of ocurse people who prefer Nokias offerings will not buy only one single model if a wide range of choices is available.)

[wmarone]

LOL! :rolleyes:
as per my earlier post your just a happy shiny & funny guy.
I know u love Nokia so much, but please get ur head outta sand and breath the real air, perhaps then ull come to know what happening around u.;) or at least on this forum.

The problem with your "points," such as they are, is that you are choosing very, very selective examples to try and paint a picture of legions of unhappy N900 owners and suggesting that anyone who questions this picture you paint is a die-hard nokia lover.

[junooni]

(I don't really understand the "only few Apple model vs. so many Nokia models" talk... Of ocurse people who prefer Nokias offerings will not buy only one single model if a wide range of choices is available.)

Yes! and therefore that device sells alot more than the other which is out there in teh market for so long. Ive been using nokia since ever and i know for a fact that symbian had apps way before when there was no concept of iphone, but its so clear how they captured the market in a span of just 3 years...

[junooni]

The problem with your "points," such as they are, is that you are choosing very, very selective examples to try and paint a picture of legions of unhappy N900 owners and suggesting that anyone who questions this picture you paint is a die-hard nokia lover.


yeah im not making it up ..the only ppl who are defending nokia at the moment are very few in comparison to the once who are complaining right???

[mrojas]

LOL! :rolleyes:
as per my earlier post your just a happy shiny & funny guy.
I know u love Nokia so much, but please get ur head outta sand and breath the real air, perhaps then ull come to know what happening around u.;) or at least on this forum.

I am actually not a happy guy. If you search my posts, you will notice I keep complaining about Nokia products not being polished enough and this community needs to think more about end users. Been saying that since Dec 2008 when I joined, so I think I know my way around the forum, thank you.

I test drove one of my friends N900's and eventually decided it wasn't for me. I personally think that, for what I need, the HTC Desire would be the ideal device (as much as I hate the Dalvik VM).

However, I also think that judging Nokia before they have actually released their whole, latest platform, would be *****ic. Which, for your information, is the revamped Ovi Store, Symbian^3 and 4 with a new UI framework and UI respectively, MeeGo and the Harmattan device, among other things.

And there is also one more thing, which is very important for people in 3rd world markets (I live in one): the "bang for the buck". In that aspect, critical in many buying choices here, Nokia is the best.

[Crashdamage]

@junooni:
Why are you here? We get that you're not happy. So why don't you just sell your inadequate N900, get a miracle iPhone, and donate your left nut as tribute to the Emperor Jobs for entrance to his gated kingdom? Then you can go complain on iPhone forums 'til the cows come home. Certainly Sir Steve will hear you and resolve all your concerns.

Jeeeeezzzzz...I'm so tired of whiners....

[geneven]

LOL! :rolleyes:
as per my earlier post your just a happy shiny & funny guy.
I know u love Nokia so much, but please get ur head outta sand and breath the real air, perhaps then ull come to know what happening around u.;) or at least on this forum.

I don't love Nokia at all, but I have seen countless polls taken on this site in which the person initiating the poll was clearly wording it in such a way as to get a negative result about the N900. All of them ended up highly positive about the N900.

I would say you don't know what is happening around you.

[fatalsaint]

yeah im not making it up ..the only ppl who are defending nokia at the moment are very few in comparison to the once who are complaining right???

However, it is to be noted that, unhappy people tend to be more vocal than happy ones.

I wouldn't judge the amount of "Nokia Sucks" threads on this forum as any indication of any majority of N900 users liking or disliking their device.

A good portion of those threads are all started by the same people that post in eachothers threads.

[Texrat]

What I don't fully understand is:

Nokia reported today that their smartphone marketshare went up to 41% in Q1/2010. It was 40% in Q4/2009 and 38% in Q1/2009. So when it comes to smartphones, people buy Nokia. Period.

Last thing I remember about Apple was that their market share was around 16% and declining.

How do these figures match the "Nokia is doomed" and "Nokia has lost 2010" speech?

It's all about momentum and execution. Despite gains, Nokia does seem to be slipping there. If they don't correct course, they may find that 2010 was the peak.

The question is, how did Apple get that 16% in the first place?

[Texrat]

yeah im not making it up ..the only ppl who are defending nokia at the moment are very few in comparison to the once who are complaining right???

Do you have something quantifiable?

Keep in mind the nature of this forum. ;)

[junooni]

@junooni:
Why are you here? We get that you're not happy. So why don't you just sell your inadequate N900, get a miracle iPhone, and donate your left nut as tribute to the Emperor Jobs for entrance to his gated kingdom? Then you can go complain on iPhone forums 'til the cows come home. Certainly Sir Steve will hear you and resolve all your concerns.

Jeeeeezzzzz...I'm so tired of whiners....

LOL! and then they say happy ppl dont talk much, cus look at this shiny guy up there that's all the happy ppl have got ot say, if you don't like it sell ur device.
LOL! And this one up there is into human anatomy as well, or lemme guess he donated his nuts to Nokia. I feel sorry for you pal and you losing your nuts, but the idea is not to praise apple but to compare two companies about how one has a different way to operate and capturing teh market and masses thru just one device.
No im sorry to bother you about Nokia & your nuts issue. Relax..:cool:

[wmarone]

The question is, how did Apple get that 16% in the first place?

Execution that was second to none, combined with targeting a market that wasn't typically the kind to buy smartphones.

They lunged in with:
- iTunes
- Excellent user experience
- A decent mobile web-browser
- Style, which WinMo and BlackBerry completely lack

The above combined with no small amount of hype allowed them to carry through until they released the SDK, which basically gave them the head of steam they have now.

Their acquisition of marketshare is no joke, and the why is not hard too see. It was impossible to see, however, for all the incumbents.

nuts
Resorting to vulgarity and ad-hominems will endear you to no one.

[mrojas]

It's all about momentum and execution. Despite gains, Nokia does seem to be slipping there. If they don't correct course, they may find that 2010 was the peak.

The question is, how did Apple get that 16% in the first place?

They tailored the iPhone to be exactly what the US market needed at that point, and from it, spread it overseas. The original iPhone provoked a big yawn in other markets, until they began to add the features the features people wanted (MMS; Multi-tasking, etc).

It was the first smartphone for many, it was shiny, it was Apple, etc.

I personally think they would have a bigger traction if they were to lower prices a bit, and at least add a model with keyboard.

[junooni]

Do you have something quantifiable?

Keep in mind the nature of this forum. ;)

I can see where ur coming from, but all im saying is to accept the short comings of the company and not a nokia basher ive said in unmerous posts. it's not about the nature or anything else its about principle and what's wrong should be quoted wrong not sugar coated and enameld by excuses like the age of software and etc.

[junooni]

They tailored the iPhone to be exactly what the US market needed at that point, and from it, spread it overseas. The original iPhone provoked a big yawn in other markets, until they began to add the features the features people wanted (MMS; Multi-tasking, etc).

It was the first smartphone for many, it was shiny, it was Apple, etc.

I personally think they would have a bigger traction if they were to lower prices a bit, and at least add a model with keyboard.

Yeah but when its working for them so good why change it??
i also posted the J.D customer satisfatcion survey in another thread and iphone was ranked number1.

[gerbick]

This says they sold 8.75 million iPhones, which would mean their market share for Q1/2010 is still at 16.6% (when it already was over 18% in Q3/2009)

Benny, I get your point.

But ultimately I'd gather that nobody really has said that they've lost to Apple moreso as Nokia is just losing focus if you were not as informed as the patrons of this forum about what's somewhat going on at Nokia.

And that is not a lot. The whole problem with bringing up Apple is that most really don't think that Nokia is losing to Apple in terms of money nor sales. They're losing because Nokia could honestly pump out a better something if they only focused.

[nosa101]

I'm not expert in this area by any means so correct me if I'm wrong but these don't seem that big differences to me (Fremantle changes) (http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle#Changes). Sure there's OpenGL ES but that's just for eye candy. What matters are the layers below UI. There you make or break compatibility. If Fremantle on N8x0 is totally impossible, why smart people behind Mer even started the project? So can you show me why the jump is bigger than I think?

How many people run Mer on a consistent basis?

[junooni]

Resorting to vulgarity and ad-hominems will endear you to no one.

I agree with you on that,but if you read the entire thread it wasnt me who started it..so please..

[UNderworld]

Nokia was ruling when the battle of phones was not this intense...

And when the competition with touch screens and smartphones got tougher, Nokia is basically lost in the middle of nowhere... using a community as its right hand to finished their unfinished work...

but I like my 1ghz N900 now..... until I can afford £400 for a HTC legend...

edit: talking about Apple, I seriously think their Notebook designs are amazing.. but wouldnt get one .. never . FFS

[mrojas]

Yeah but when its working for them so good why change it??
i also posted the J.D customer satisfatcion survey in another thread and iphone was ranked number1.

Because QWERTY phones are currently the best for messaging, and right now, SMS is where the money is. That is why so many recent launches of "youth" phones (which SMS a lot) have QWERTY.

However, I agree that if they think the model is working for them, they ain't gonna change it. Ferrari is what it is because it makes Ferraris, not Lamborghinis.

[mrojas]

Nokia was ruling when the battle of phones was not this intense...

And when the competition with touch screens and smartphones got tougher, Nokia is basically lost in the middle of nowhere... using a community as its right hand to finished their unfinished work...

but I like my 1ghz N900 now..... until I can afford £400 for a HTC legend...

edit: talking about Apple, I seriously think their Notebook designs are amazing.. but wouldnt get one .. never . FFS

From what they said, before jumping blindly into the touch screen battle, they stopped and started changing their whole profile of just being a handset maker, to be a service provider, with handsets of top. That, off course, made them delay the launch of new models.

All that effort, the new services and the long awaited new phones, should bear fruit this year. Let's wait and see if they were right.

[junooni]

Ferrari is what it is because it makes Ferraris, not Lamborghinis.

ok:rolleyes:

[Ronaldo]

Too many post for me to read so i'll just say my part.

For me i like the top end of the phone market and i would say i was a nokia person since i only use nokia but i do feel a bit let down by them i expected nokia to have commerial apps like iphone and features and tech that exceeded any other phone manufacturer but it seems that they have been left behind.

i think the best nokia phone so far is the n95 8GB, had features at the right time and a great all arounder. I had an n97 and was so disappointed with the ovi store and the phone it self.

Got my self n900 because i thought it would be there best and they would invest in it as it had the power and open source OS. Currently very happy with it but did expect more especially from OVI and commerical support.

apple have clearly set the bar followed by newer android OS.

I personally hope that the n900 gets the support it deserves and next nokia i get will need to have multi touch and serious commercial support with openess otherwise i will take my money elsewhere.

not going to list all the nokias that i have owned but here are few: 6630, n70, n80, n95, n95-8gb, n97 and n900

[junooni]

Too many post for me to read so i'll just say my part.

For me i like the top end of the phone market and i would say i was a nokia person since i only use nokia but i do feel a bit let down by them i expected nokia to have commerial apps like iphone and features and tech that exceeded any other phone manufacturer but it seems that they have been left behind.

i think the best nokia phone so far is the n95 8GB, had features at the right time and a great all arounder. I had an n97 and was so disappointed with the ovi store and the phone it self.

Got my self n900 because i thought it would be there best and they would invest in it as it had the power and open source OS. Currently very happy with it but did expect more especially from OVI and commerical support.

apple have clearly set the bar followed by newer android OS.

I personally hope that the n900 gets the support it deserves and next nokia i get will need to have multi touch and serious commercial support with openess otherwise i will take my money elsewhere.

not going to list all the nokias that i have owned but here are few: 6630, n70, n80, n95, n95-8gb, n97 and n900

well there we go...yet another additoin to the whiner family, so now what should i tell him to sell him n900 and buy something else..
and he didnt sound quite happy eiether.. so what do you suggest fellas..and im talkitn to the nokia lovers.. :D
yeah yeah ... bring it on..>>>:D

[gryedouge]

Benny, I get your point.

But ultimately I'd gather that nobody really has said that they've lost to Apple moreso as Nokia is just losing focus if you were not as informed as the patrons of this forum about what's somewhat going on at Nokia.

And that is not a lot. The whole problem with bringing up Apple is that most really don't think that Nokia is losing to Apple in terms of money nor sales. They're losing because Nokia could honestly pump out a better something if they only focused.

So in effect, we need to look at how the companies are portraying themselves? I see more of Steve Jobs on a daily basis than I do of any Nokia exec. For all points and purposes, the very strong impression that I take away with me is that Steve is more devoted and involved in his products as opposed to Nokia. Be this right or wrong, but it is also a driving factor in marketing. It shows a level of comittment above and beyond the boardroom.

[mrojas]

well there we go...so now what should i tell him to sell him n900 and buy something else..
and he didnt sound quite happy eiether.. so what do you suggest fellas..and im talkitn to the nokia lovers.. :D
yeah yeah ... bring it on..>>>:D

What part of "Currently very happy with it" on his post didn't you understand?

It is to note he is, quite rightly, worried about the N900 future.

[mrojas]

I had an n97 and was so disappointed with the ovi store and the phone it self.

For a Symbian fan, the last years have been a big let down. Haven´t seen anything yet that convinces me to let go of my trusty E71.

[geneven]

I found a paragraph from the current Economist that gives an indication where Nokia is focusing:

"Some companies even employ corporate anthropologists. Jan Chipchase, who until recently worked for Nokia, uses ethnographic techniques to study the way people use mobile phones, particularly in emerging markets, where the devices make a much bigger difference to people’s everyday lives than in the rich world. Mr Chipchase’s discovery that poor people often share their phones prompted the company to make handsets with multiple address books."

Edit: Chipchase, what a name!

[junooni]

It is to note he is, quite rightly, worried about the N900 future.

and so are most of us. dont know why is it so hard for ppl like u to get the idea that none of us like to bash nokia or the device, its just were worried about teh future and the way things are happining at nokia. None of us have no clue and thats what worries us where as Igave apple just as an example that its a company that just started in the phone business and became the ruler..ive been a very loyal nokia user and have used just nokia all the way..

[Texrat]

junooni, just a bit of caution: in some of your posts you are borderline offensive. Hate on a mechanical contrivance all you like, but be respectful of the people here.

[junooni]

Haven´t seen anything yet that convinces me to let go of my trusty E71.

yep I agree with you probably one of the best after 9500 & 9300 that i used and it was awesome.

[silvermountain]

and so are most of us. dont know why is it so hard for ppl like u to get the idea that none of us like to bash nokia or the device, its just were worried about teh future and the way things are happining at nokia. None of us have no clue and thats what worries us where as Igave apple just as an example that its a company that just started in the phone business and became the ruler..ive been a very loyal nokia user and have used just nokia all the way..

Is the lack of capitalization and immense blocks of text what happens when one write from an N900?

[junooni]

junooni, just a bit of caution: In some of your posts you are borderline offensive. Hate on a mechanical contrivance all you like, but be respectful of the people here.

you know what i just wanna set the record straight.
I apologize if i was offending anyone, i wanna make it very clear my purpose is to call wrong{{wrong}}.
But in the mist of all this if i was rude or offensive im sorry.:(

[zehjotkah]

btw. I recommended the N900 to two guys. One Linux lover (but not very experienced, loves it, because it is free, also uses often Windows) and a very casual end user. Both are happy.
I gave my N810 to my sister and she is happy, too. Prefers it over the iPhone (fingernails and her huge DVD database in excel).
But there are also people who wouldn't be happy with maemo and prefer iPhone, so what is your point, junooni?
People are different, and there is no "one mobile device for all".

[junooni]

Is the lack of capitalization and immense blocks of text what happens when one write from an N900?

and you see now when u ran outta facts ur gonan try to take the back door on th vocab and editing. Come on man...setup up..

[un-named_user]

Nokia's reaction, short-term, was the 5800 XM. Quite a success.

Yes it was, I bought it and returned it cause of the UI. Got a E71 and didn't look back. Don't confuse brand loyalty to a good product. it only takes one so far.

They do have a clear product strategy, based in the motto "One size doesn't fit all". It was presented crystal clear in Nokia World, in the presentation of Capital Markets, etc. Just google around for it.

The 3rd world market is in fact the market where the money is. The richest man of the world based his money in mobile in the developing world. Source: [url]http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2010/03/carlos-slim-worlds-richest-person-made-his-money-with-mobile.html

While the idea is great, But then why would Nokia try and simplify their product lines with the new nomenclature. I guess it does make sense at some level.

IF all the money was in developing countries. Nokia would be making tons of profits and going upwards only.

Look at the APAC countries, Nokia dominate there hands down. But does it compare well to the companies who play only in the developed markets mainly?

Nokia needs to have a leg in both the worlds, not just one. Profit and sales may be related but are not the same IMHO.


The whole idea of Qt, of Symbian passed to the Foundation and MeeGo is precisely to make hardware irrelevant, as long is running Qt. In a sense, an OS is a virtualization layer between the HW and SW. That is why I know I can run Windows or Linux software on my PC, independently if its an Acer, Dell, Lenovo, etc.

Did you really just compare a general purpose computer software/OSes to a targeted embedded one? Call me when you can run different OSes on embedded devices that easily too.

Yes QT will help, but the underlying support and some standardization needs to be there to help it along.

While I don't like the differences between FP's and N and E series, it is clearly working for them (i.e: marketshare just grew, see post above mine).

The market share just shows sales of those devices seperately, Doesn't show how much better it could be if they had more overlap in functionality. But I guess that's a difference of opinion.

Mine is based so, cause I have seen enough people cribbing about the disparity. You may not have.

And that is exactly why MeeGo is coming around, and why Symbian^3 and 4 are being designed.

I'm hopeful Meego within a Nokia UI/Ecosystem might be nice. But it being open I worry about it too much getting ripped apart by every vendor as they see fit. What it does to application portability or platform viability I don't know.

Symbian 3 & 4 I'm not sure about yet. The UI till now in the demos hasn't looked very promising. I'm more of a realist than an outright optimist in that regards. Lets see.


Agreed, and they are working on it. That you have been unable to inform yourself adequately, or disagree with their decisions, doesn't invalidate them.

I'm informed enough to know where I think a company I like lacks, and where they are good at. I suggest you keep the attitude to yourself on that regards.

I have done so, and they are happy with their N900's.

I sincerely hope they are too :). But I don't recommend a beta product to anyone. I don't mind owning one myself as I keep a E72 for important purposes.

Meego I may after using it. The N900 I just wont. After a friend ended up buying one after using mine and got stuck in the whole mail for exchange mess.

One thing that I hate from Internet, is that anyone is free to spew their opinions, no matter how misinformed they are, and present it as the holy grail of truth. It is something that is happening in the media as well, sadly.

I somehow seem to handle better their lack of faith or misguided optimism.

[Texrat]

Looks like the thread's heating up again and this time it's not my fault. :D

Virtual beers for all combatants-- er, conversants.

[junooni]

so what is your point, junooni?
People are different, and there is no "one mobile device for all".

yeah i agree with you and imam say it again i gave apple as an example, im all about n900 too man...that is the only reason why im whining cus i want it to be heard that this company needs to wake up and face the truth and fight the tough competition. to stay on top and mostly to keep the customers the loyal customers satisfied. atleast the majority.

[mrojas]

and so are most of us. dont know why is it so hard for ppl like u to get the idea that none of us like to bash nokia or the device, its just were worried about teh future and the way things are happining at nokia. None of us have no clue and thats what worries us where as Igave apple just as an example that its a company that just started in the phone business and became the ruler..ive been a very loyal nokia user and have used just nokia all the way..

"The future" and "the way things are happening at Nokia" is something I, and others, have been trying to explain again and again, and people seems unable to understand. So, on one last effort to ignore the ad hominem you have been so happy to pile on me, here it is:

a) Nokia is not going to copy Apple's model. Period. Why? Because it is against their philosophy, corporate culture, goals, etc.

b) Nokia is not, and have never tried really to be, a handset luxury maker (like Apple and the iPhone). They are the Honda or Toyota of the handset world. That is why they have 41% of the whole market share. They make more handsets that every other manufacturer.

c) Nokia recognized something that a lot of people keep saying but really don't understand: the ecosystem and platform is the future, over handsets themselves. That is why they focused on changing to be a provider of that, over launching new shiny high end handsets.

d) Why did they do that? Because the luxury smartphone market is crowded enough, changing Symbian to be "shiny" was going to take time, changing Maemo to be shiny was going to take time, and for the Ovi store to mature was going to take time.

d) In the meantime, they chose to be stronger in the emerging/low market, by pushing previous "high end" models there (like the 3 new C and E phones they launched).

e) All that has left high end consumers with a very foul taste in their mouths. Symbian, right now, doesn´t have anything to impress. Hopefully they will. Nothing new in the MeeGo front. And the announcement of MeeGo, in my opinion, was very poorly managed.

And about the N900, their vagueness about future support has been unclear at best. Quim Gil said that there were more software releases for the N900 in the pipeline, based on Fremantle. But the real question, of MeeGo on the N900, has not been clearly answered yet. And that is why I ultimately decided not to buy one! (my friends that got one didn't care about that, btw).

A lot of things are supposed to happen this year. The new release of Qt, supporting multiple platforms, the launch of new, Snapdragon powered Symbian devices, the launch of the new MeeGo device, the launch of the revamped Ovi store.

My recommendation has always been: wait and see. As hard as it is.

If not, get an Android device.. the HTC Desire is tempting enough...

[un-named_user]

Looks like the thread's heating up again and this time it's not my fault. :D

Virtual beers for all combatants-- er, conversants.

Good idea. But I'l go get a real one quick. This thread is going to catch fire soon :D

And somehow all similar topics end up being like this

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[Crashdamage]

...if you read the entire thread it wasnt me who started it..so please..
I stand guilty as charged. But not particularly sorry.

Anyway, to get back on topic...I say Nokia is ahead - not behind! Hear me out. BTW,a large part of what follows is from a post I did in the MeeGo forum...

As has been said, Apple got where they are by bringing out a (seemingly) new, (somewhat) compelling product and expertly marketing the hell outta the thing. But they - and other companies - have been in such a position before and fallen. History shows that eventually, open (or even semi-open) systems will eventually break the stranglehold of totally closed ones, even if a closed system is technically superior. Monopolies never last forever.

Support of an OS by many companies against that of one company is how Microsoft overtook Apple's early lead in PCs and how Android will likely soon overtake the iPhone's early lead (leaving Symbian aside for the moment). Like Apple did with PCs, Sony tried to rule VCRs with the closed BetaMax system, allowed on only their hardware, but were overtaken by the VHS system because it was supported by many manufacturers. Choice and price eventually wins out. Nokia and Intel aren't ignorant of that kind of tech history.

In America advertising is everything. Americans are generally tech-stupid. They buy what they're told or popular, not what's best. The same can be said elsewhere, but we Americans are particularly gullible. Nokia realized promoting Maemo by themselves even with a massive and expensive ad campaign probably wasn't going to be enough for Maemo to get where it needed to be in terms of market share and developer interest. For long-term survival in the smartphone/pocket computer marketplace against Apple, RIM and Android, it's obvious that it would take strength in numbers - really big numbers. So Nokia smartly teamed up with another absolute monster in Intel to add clout, resources and respectibility to MeeGo. And open-sourced MeeGo to add further incentive for other companies to get on board.

Add to all that the fact that Maemo/MeeGo is the most capable, advanced mobile OS currently in sight. No, the most technically advanced system doesn't always win in the marketplace, but it can't hurt that it's the one mobile OS designed from the start for pocket computing, not simply as a smartphone OS. MeeGo will be ready for whatever future hardware and software can throw at it for the next 2-3 even 5 years.

All the above is kinda obvious to readers here I know, but I just wanted to state clearly why IMHO MeeGo + Qt is a solid plan. Why I say Nokia has in fact not been left behind, but is actually ahead! Back when they were developing the N900 Nokia was already thinking in terms that other companies hadn't seriously considered - not of 'smartphones' but real pocket computers. And that if their plan is properly executed it could make MeeGo huge in 2-3 years. Now, what would be properly executing the plan?

1. Get MeeGo on hardware from multiple manufacturers.
2. Apps, baby! Lotsa apps!
3. Market the hell outta MeeGo!

[junooni]

"The future" and "the way things are happening at Nokia" is something I, and others, have been trying to explain again and again, and people seems unable to understand. So, on one last effort to ignore the ad hominem you have been so happy to pile on me, here it is:

a) Nokia is not going to copy Apple's model. Period. Why? Because it is against their philosophy, corporate culture, goals, etc.

b) Nokia is not, and have never tried really to be, a handset luxury maker (like Apple and the iPhone). They are the Honda or Toyota of the handset world. That is why they have 41% of the whole market share. They make more handsets that every other manufacturer.

c) Nokia recognized something that a lot of people keep saying but really don't understand: the ecosystem and platform is the future, over handsets themselves. That is why they focused on changing to be a provider of that, over launching new shiny high end handsets.

d) Why did they do that? Because the luxury smartphone market is crowded enough, changing Symbian to be "shiny" was going to take time, changing Maemo to be shiny was going to take time, and for the Ovi store to mature was going to take time.

d) In the meantime, they chose to be stronger in the emerging/low market, by pushing previous "high end" models there (like the 3 new C and E phones they launched).

e) All that has left high end consumers with a very foul taste in their mouths. Symbian, right now, doesn´t have anything to impress. Hopefully they will. Nothing new in the MeeGo front. And the announcement of MeeGo, in my opinion, was very poorly managed.

And about the N900, their vagueness about future support has been unclear at best. Quim Gil said that there were more software releases for the N900 in the pipeline, based on Fremantle. But the real question, of MeeGo on the N900, has not been clearly answered yet. And that is why I ultimately decided not to buy one! (my friends that got one didn't care about that, btw).

A lot of things are supposed to happen this year. The new release of Qt, supporting multiple platforms, the launch of new, Snapdragon powered Symbian devices, the launch of the new MeeGo device, the launch of the revamped Ovi store.

My recommendation has always been: wait and see. As hard as it is.

If not, get an Android device.. the HTC Desire is tempting enough...

fair enough..and agreed.;)

[mrojas]

fair enough..and agreed.;)

Doesn't make the wait any easier, though, and worst even, there is no much proof yet that Nokia will be able to deliver.

I am hopeful, still.

[junooni]

I stand guilty as charged. But not particularly sorry.

Anyway, to get back on topic...I say Nokia is ahead - not behind! Hear me out. BTW,a large part of what follows is from a post I did in the MeeGo forum...

As has been said, Apple got where they are by bringing out a (seemingly) new, (somewhat) compelling product and expertly marketing the hell outta the thing. But they - and other companies - have been in such a position before and fallen. History shows that eventually, open (or even semi-open) systems will eventually break the stranglehold of totally closed ones, even if a closed system is technically superior. Monopolies never last forever.

Support of an OS by many companies against that of one company is how Microsoft overtook Apple's early lead in PCs and how Android will likely soon overtake the iPhone's early lead (leaving Symbian aside for the moment). Like Apple did with PCs, Sony tried to rule VCRs with the closed BetaMax system, allowed on only their hardware, but were overtaken by the VHS system because it was supported by many manufacturers. Choice and price eventually wins out. Nokia and Intel aren't ignorant of that kind of tech history.

In America advertising is everything. Americans are generally tech-stupid. They buy what they're told or popular, not what's best. The same can be said elsewhere, but we Americans are particularly gullible. Nokia realized promoting Maemo by themselves even with a massive and expensive ad campaign probably wasn't going to be enough for Maemo to get where it needed to be in terms of market share and developer interest. For long-term survival in the smartphone/pocket computer marketplace against Apple, RIM and Android, it's obvious that it would take strength in numbers - really big numbers. So Nokia smartly teamed up with another absolute monster in Intel to add clout, resources and respectibility to MeeGo. And open-sourced MeeGo to add further incentive for other companies to get on board.

Add to all that the fact that Maemo/MeeGo is the most capable, advanced mobile OS currently in sight. No, the most technically advanced system doesn't always win in the marketplace, but it can't hurt that it's the one mobile OS designed from the start for pocket computing, not simply as a smartphone OS. MeeGo will be ready for whatever future hardware and software can throw at it for the next 2-3 even 5 years.

All the above is kinda obvious to readers here I know, but I just wanted to state clearly why IMHO MeeGo + Qt is a solid plan. Why I say Nokia has in fact not been left behind, but is actually ahead! Back when they were developing the N900 Nokia was already thinking in terms that other companies hadn't seriously considered - not of 'smartphones' but real pocket computers. And that if their plan is properly executed it could make MeeGo huge in 2-3 years. Now, what would be properly executing the plan?

1. Get MeeGo on hardware from multiple manufacturers.
2. Apps, baby! Lotsa apps!
3. Market the hell outta MeeGo!

now thats a fine analysis and explanation, and i appreciate it. :cool:

[jsa]

I think there are some things worth noticing. Nokia always seems to get all the gloom and doom while they are actually making healthy profit consistently. Sony Ericsson, Motorola and Palm are pretty much in the ropes. Their big "comeback" products X10, Droid and Pre haven't exactly got them on their feet even though that's something you might think reading the techblogs.

Nokia's services and the transition are often criticized, and probably for a reason but everyone forgets that it's pretty much Nokia, Apple, Google and maybe MS (not sure what RIM has) who actually have any meaningful ecosystem. What about HTC, Samsung, LG, Moto, SE etc. They don't get bashing about services even though they probably should for the reason that don't have any yet.

Of the oldschool phonemakers Nokia is clearly in the best position answer the challenge of the newcomers and I for one hope they deliver.

[Ronaldo]

and so are most of us. dont know why is it so hard for ppl like u to get the idea that none of us like to bash nokia or the device, its just were worried about teh future and the way things are happining at nokia. None of us have no clue and thats what worries us where as Igave apple just as an example that its a company that just started in the phone business and became the ruler..ive been a very loyal nokia user and have used just nokia all the way..

dude you contradicted what you said about my post by this post.

stick to one plan other wise you will sound more ******ed.

[theflew]

Maemo as an OS is 4+ years old. It is no one's but Nokia's fault that an OS was not developed in FOUR years that could span multiple devices without serious backward compatibility issues,

Not sure what you mean by that the other, now more successful alternatives, have no potential but Maemo who have not gained traction in 4+ years have.

Maemo might be 4+ years old but don't forget Nokia had to grow mobile Linux. The Pre and Android might not have existed if the 770/N8XX didn't exist or at least in the same timeframe. I'm sure Nokia could have built a proprietary OS like Apple that's losely compatible another OS in less time.

[Texrat]

Ronaldo, I cautioned junooni, and same applies to your post above: no personal attacks, thanks.

[gerbick]

This thread was doing so well! So... what's next?

[nilchak]

Now, with that said, don't dismiss what I'm saying. Simply put, all of this freedom has netted not much. Like my father once said... "people take freedom as to meaning they can do a whole lot of nothing..."

Amen to you father. Very well said - and I see the son has the clarity of mind too not clouded by ideology. :)

[nilchak]

God, the way some are predicting doom and gloom for wall garden approach and ultimate victory for open approaches is - well fine and very true in the long run, BUT ...

come on, this is a phone we are talking about - and how long does one use such a technology or a pjone itself - well maybe 5 years - till the new technology totally changes the market and hence the market players too.

So really withing these 3-5 years a company has to deliver the goods - either with their closed ecosystem or with their open approach.

This is not some big ideological issue like many are making it to be.

Yes Open vs closed is a big ideological issue - but for a phone technology, the time window is too short in these fast paced times. Here it is more an issue of wether a particular way delivers on the promise.

Having stuck to Linux based and supposedly open sourced approaches to mobile computing and mobile telephony since the Zaurus days, openMoko and now N900 - I have yet to see that promise of open approach to platform development deliver on its potential.

[timwatt]

my biggest disappointment with my n900 = biggest opportunity.
no search for: sms, contact fields other than name, email, notes calendar, tasks.
Inadequate PIM no: task descriptions, categories (groupings), poor calendar functions.
this is where iPhone and Android as samsung and Sony Ericsson are also week. solutions to all the above are extensively discussed in the bug forum. come on Nokia! i am actively trying to find a solution but it looks like i'll have to wait until palm adds a better camera and removable memory to there next device.

[Texrat]

God, the way some are predicting doom and gloom for wall garden approach and ultimate victory for open approaches is - well fine and very true in the long run, BUT ...

Actually most of the comments I've made and seen are just the opposite. The hope is that open source and systems will prevail. The fear is that the walled gardens will conquer all.

[h3llraz0r]

I once saw Nokia as the milestone setter in the smartphone industry. Today they lag behind most major companies in terms of support and innovation when it comes to smartphones. I can't believe I bought into this N900 thinking that Maemo or MeeGo would beat Android and Iphone OS in most aspects. It starting to look like the N900 was just a alpha phase phone for a platform that won't be completed before the end of 2010. I know the unforseen bad timing that involved Maemo and MeeGo, but why do we have to pay the price for the lack of an organized transition.

Rate this thread 1 star if you want. My opinion won't change your allegiance to Nokia. I'm just being realistic of the situation and if it won't lose its fanboys during the next few months it will lose those who bought into the idea that Nokia is above Apple and Google.

If only Nokia would release PR 1.2 or at least give us a release date instead of playing delay games with its own clients who bought into their "flagship phone" hype.

[mrojas]

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=50755&page=10

and the rest of pages.

[vmajor]

Personally, I am now a lot more satisfied with my N900 when I stopped thinking of it as a phone. It is not a phone, it is an ultra portable linux appliance with focus on the internet and data networking. I have yet to make a single GSM/UMTS voice call - I only use Skype out over 3/3.5G or WiFi.

I use the N900 so much now that I have to remember to switch to my laptop. The N900 cannot replace my desktop workstation, but it has severely cut into the time that I spend using my laptop.

With a fast WiFi connection the MicroB and even Firefox browsers are extremely fast and responsive, I now also have full ssh access through xterm, and push email across three of my main accounts works very well.

I mean this tiny N900 multitasks so well and quickly enough that it is stretching my own information processing ability... iPhone, Android, cannot do this. The comical iPhone OS 4 "multitasking" does not rate a mention.

The mechanical keyboard is awesome too and messaging works in a really clever way.

My recent "discovery" of the web page zooming gestures also transformed my browsing experience - continuous zooming on the MicroB beats multi touch hands down.

Yes, many basic things do not work and I am as eager as anyone to have them enabled or fixed, but right now, for me, there is simply nothing better than my N900.

V.

[Laughingstok]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

http://www.flagstafffrenzy.org/wp-content/uploads/2005/06/vader-choke.jpg

Sorry, someone had to do it.

[geneven]

Pray more..and Nokia will come into your heart.

[vietn900]

cool story man

[ysss]

It's a different battle than what was waged on the desktop. We don't have open, modular and commoditized hardware. There is no preinstalled base of users to 'convert'. The stacks above the OS are arguably already more open than those on windows super-dominance era, thanks to the oss efforts before this.

It's a different battleground out there..

[maluka]

Just because you can't see PR 1.2 doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Corwin]

It's a different battleground out there..

Exactly. But looking at the way things develop, it will merge a good part. And this battleground will become more and more important while the other one is becoming less important.

Little OT:
Nokia seems so slow to me. I know implications of large corporations, development cycles and all. Still. They literally let the others steal them the butter from the bread. Currently there is NO new Nokia I would get my wife. Imagine! No N97 mini and certainly no N900. She is happy with her E71. I would love to get her a new touchscreen device but I will not spare any more money on S60 5th (and yes, I preordered a N97 the first day it was possible, I know what I am talking about ;) Was OK for me but would not for her).

BTT:
Walled gardens work very well in case the inhabitants are not very sure about the topic (technology in this case) and appreciate guidance. Most people ARE not too sure and geeks are a very minor fraction of the popolation ;) So...

Have a nice day,
Corwin

[benny1967]

The question is, how did Apple get that 16% in the first place?

By losing market share. They used to have 18%.

[acano]

I disagree with you instead or "bad organized" transition I think that nokia is doing a "really good" organized transition.

They never said that "N900" was an smartphone for masses, rather, they said that N900 was a smartphone for linux lovers, I even did not see any anouncement on TV like with the "N97".

I think that a "bad organized" transition would be to sell "N900" as the "i-phone" alternative, and they never did so, even with "N97" or any other smartphone they never said that it was a phone to compete with "i-phone". The only smartphone that they are saying to be so is with N8, let's see what will happen.

I am very happy with my N900, may be just because I am a programmer and I can understand what is inside, I think that N900 beats i-phone already. For the masses I have no doubt that that when the process is complete (2011 by nokia's words) they will beat the i-phone and any other smartphone in any cathegory.

For the moment they are increasing their parcentage participation on smartphones market from 40% to 41%.

Do not forget that nokia is facing computer industry that have been leading by american enterprises: Apple, Microsoft, Google, etc. for many years. Even with that in mind I think that they will succed, because they are doing think as they should be done, little by little and they are always telling the truth they do not have any problem to say "we are having a hard competence on high-end smartphones", that is just dignificant in our days's society where lie is everyday everywhere.

[benny1967]

The whole problem with bringing up Apple is that most really don't think that Nokia is losing to Apple in terms of money nor sales. They're losing because Nokia could honestly pump out a better something if they only focused.

What you say implies that you are not content with Nokias current lineup of devices and that you therefore expect people out there in the wild aren't, either.

My point of view in this discussion is different because my personal experience tells me that S60v3 is still the perfect smartphone OS for me. My brain is not wired to understand an Apple UI, I don't like the Android phones, I don't think Maemo is good as a smartphone platform. S60v5 may be acceptable but still not where v3 is.

So while of course everybody could always "do better", from my perspectiive there's no need to do (even) better for Nokia because they already have the best (for me). The rising market share is just a nice check that tells me quite a few people may see things this way.

[Texrat]

By losing market share. They used to have 18%.

Wiseguy. :p

It was more a rhetorical question anyway. But really-- not long ago they had zero. ;)

[NokTokDaddy]

I once saw Nokia as the milestone setter in the smartphone industry. Today they lag behind most major companies in terms of support and innovation when it comes to smartphones...

...If only Nokia would release PR 1.2 or at least give us a release date instead of playing delay games with its own clients who bought into their "flagship phone" hype.

Try going onto sites like this for Apple, Google, Android, WM, etc - some of the rants are very familiar...

No company can ever stay on top all the time - it's all about peaks and troughs because no-one can predict markets 100%.

As a handset manufacturer Nokia's record and performance is evident; they make more smartphones for a wider range of people on this planet than any other manufacturer. Symbian is still the most popular smartphone OS, so Nokia are still the 'milestone setter' you first perceived. Maemo/Meego and Symbian^3 will only build on that.

Your recent experience has not satisfied you as an individual. Whilst that is regrettable, I'm sure you understand that Nokia don't make devices just to suit you. You may not be alone in your complaints, but that is a drop in the ocean to a huge company like Nokia who operate in so many markets. It's not that they don't care, it's that they have to look to the big picture to stay in business.

I am not a 'power user', developer or industry insider - I'm just a guy who loves his phones. For me, Nokia are still showing the way: the quality, range and features available mean I'll keep looking at this brand first. I'm not blind to other mfrs, OS's, etc., I try them out and compare with friends, but I keep coming back for some reason...

For me, the N900 is where I want to be: a stable OS, good features (although I'm still missing some) and excellent build quality. Best of all I'm part of the next wave of smartphone/superphone technology that keeps getting better. PR 1.2 will come and now we hear that Meego will definately come. (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=50763) What more do YOU want?

Being at the frontier has allways been challenging - but ultimately more rewarding. Keep the Faith.

[nMIK-3]

I am very tired of all this Nokia negativity from American press and blogs...

Steve Jobs talks and its everywhere in big headlines as Apple Magic.
Nokia sells 100 million devices in a single quarter and its a disaster..

I mean seriously now give me a break...

[sxc]

Some people will be quick to dismiss the markets as being overly influenced by negative americans.

IMHO though, this graph (http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chfdeh=0&chdet=1272004368772&chddm=24242&cmpto=NYSE:NOK;NASDAQ:AAPL&cmptdms=0;0&q=nok; aapl&ntsp=0) (change timespan to 3 or 6 months) is a good illustration of the impact of the N900 on Nokia's fate: there was some hope initially but in the end, their inability to realize the potential of this excellent piece of technology (by properly finishing off the OS) shows that they still haven't learnt that the bar has been drastically raised by the competition...

[geneven]

They never said that "N900" was an smartphone for masses, rather, they said that N900 was a smartphone for linux lovers, I even did not see any anouncement on TV like with the "N97".
.

Yes, smartphone for linux lovers! Can you point me to the advertisements and commercials where they said that? I can't find them for some reason. That's not anything mentioned on the video on my N900, for example.

[NokTokDaddy]

Currently there is NO new Nokia I would get my wife. Imagine! No N97 mini and certainly no N900. She is happy with her E71. I would love to get her a new touchscreen device but I will not spare any more money on S60 5th (and yes, I preordered a N97 the first day it was possible, I know what I am talking about ;) Was OK for me but would not for her).

My wife's very independent (bloody stubborn, in fact) but this is one of the many reasons I love her:

She gave the kid in Carphone Warehouse hell 'cause he tried real hard to sell iphone - told him in a loud voice in a busy store that she wanted a phone she could customise, replace the batteries herself, have a decent camera with flash and a real keyboard. She tore that kid to shreds and embarrased him for being so apple-centric!

She pushed for N900 but really wanted N97Mini. She cleverly let them 'sell' her one and got the deal she wanted.

She's so impressed with her 1st Nokia that the last thing she said to me in bed last night was "put that silly thing back in your pyjamas and come to bed"

No, no, no, sorry:

"I should've had one of these Nokia's years ago"

Brought a tear to my eye...

[paulkoan]

Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle-motion.

Seriously, it amazes me how there are *still* people who purchased the n900 without doing any research about it and then moan about how they aren't the target audience.

The set of these people no doubt overlaps strongly the set of people chomping at the bit for PR1.2 as if it will suddenly turn the n900 into the iphone they should have gotten in the first place. It won't. It is just a firmware update. It will contain nothing that dramatically alters the way you use the n900.

To everyone: if you made a bad purchasing decision buying the n900, and wish to blame someone, there is probably a mirror in your bathroom. Confine your rants to there and away from the rest of us who knew what we were getting into and are satisfied with the outcome because we did the five minutes of research necessary.

[acano]

Yes, smartphone for linux lovers! Can you point me to the advertisements and commercials where they said that? I can't find them for some reason. That's not anything mentioned on the video on my N900, for example.

Of course not implicitely. Not in that video, I think that no linux lover looks at videos in oder to but a phone, or do they do so?

That video was almost the same video that they used for Nokia C3, Do that means that Nokia C3 is presented as an alternative to i-phone?

Anyway, may be it is not only for linux lovers but of course they never presented it as an alternative to i-phone.

AFAI, that video only appeared on youtube, and the most of current people that uses smartphones they do not know anything about N900.

I cotinue sayiing that noone on nokia said never that any Nokia's product in an alternative to i-phone.

Regards!!!

[h3llraz0r]

Thanks for the good replies and I'd like to quickly point this out.

Type "Nokia N900" in Youtube and this is what you'll get:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYnx0PUX7Do

I don't see a nerd typing commands in the terminal, I don't see a geek messing around with settings to overclock the phone (why would he need it with that demo), I don't see him convince himself to buy a phone that is not what it seems.

That GUI is so smooth and quick compared to the real thing... Yeah, you will start flaming on me because I enjoy smooth GUI, but that is what I expected when I got the phone. Believe it or not, I'm speaking for many of us who do enjoy linux but also like it when everything seems to work AS ADVERTIZED.

And does a phone for linux lovers have to be unstable for the masses? How selfish can you be...

[NokTokDaddy]

IMHO though, this graph (http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chfdeh=0&chdet=1272004368772&chddm=24242&cmpto=NYSE:NOK;NASDAQ:AAPL&cmptdms=0;0&q=nok; aapl&ntsp=0) (change timespan to 3 or 6 months) is a good illustration of the impact of the N900 on Nokia's fate

Maybe I'm missing the point here, or maybe you've linked to the wrong graph?

Nokia sell a wide range of mobile phones and a few laptop/netbooks and apple sell a lot of personal compuiters (sorry, Macs) and a few phones.

How does this graph highlight anything to do with N900?

Please explain.

[RenegadeFanboy]

Travel to Europe or China to check out, everyone is holding a Nokia.

Maybe we could skip this sentence now. I'm from Europe, I travel on the metro and see iPhone or Samsung.

[vmajor]

I am not a linux lover - I run it on our servers, but I am happy with Vista ('tis true) on my desktops.

I also have no love for iPhones and the necessary Apple cult membership in order to use the iPhone properly(TM),

But.

I want my **** bluetooth to work for file transfers on my N900 and I want the barely functional Ovi suite to recognise my phone so that I can share data with my other devices without solving logic puzzles and wasting time. More than 4 hours of battery life when using WiFi/3G connection would also be nice.

I am otherwise happy with the amount of polish and eye candy that Maemo5 offers even for casual use and users.

Thus, there are people like me that can use the N900 how it should be used that still wish it would not stumble on basic and technologically prehistoric things like bluetooth file transfers and desktop/device sync. I also sympathize with the users that bizarrely cannot enter USSD codes due to this basic GSM telephone function not being present in the N900 phone app.

I want that fixed in PR 1.2, and independently by Ovi suite team. The rest is just a bonus.

V.

EDIT: my GUI is buttery smooth and super fast, even with multiple apps open. The only time it struggles is when a heavy flash website is open.

[geneven]

My N900 is not the slightest bit unstable, overclocked to 800 mHz. It is boring, does everything I want.

[Corwin]

Nice NokTokDaddy, thanks :)

The N97 mini would in fact be the first choice. If. Problem is, that it is not up to the competition 'stamine-wise'. It is relatively slow and just not 2010 tech, rather 2008. Media consumption for instance is hindered by this.

Until now (and for the next months) the N900 is unfortunately the ONLY 2009 tech powered Smartphone by Nokia. And even this one is only standard (not sub, but also not above). And I fear they will come up with another 600MHz OMAP3 in the N8 in September - by then it is going to be outdated. Again :(

Best regards,
Corwin

[acano]

Thanks for the good replies and I'd like to quickly point this out.

Type "Nokia N900" in Youtube and this is what you'll get:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYnx0PUX7Do

I don't see a nerd typing commands in the terminal, I don't see a geek messing around with settings to overclock the phone (why would he need it with that demo), I don't see him convince himself to buy a phone that is not what it seems.

That GUI is so smooth and quick compared to the real thing... Yeah, you will start flaming on me because I enjoy smooth GUI, but that is what I expected when I got the phone.

And does a phone for linux lovers have to be unstable for the masses?

Thanks also for your good response. In my opinion there is no so much difference between the video and the real N900, but I have to recognize that in the case of the N97 the difference between video and reality was very high.


And does a phone for linux lovers have to be unstable for the masses?

Well I think that linux lovers are more interested on being able to go into the mobile phone more than being stable or not. For instance, my N900 was completely failed because I changed somethings on the OS and it was amazing how I could my self reflash it and get it again instead of going to the official service. Also is amazing to see under the x-term that you can reorganize the file of the linux OS in order to get somethings that you are not able to do without linux OS knoweldge.

Anyway if you boutght a N900 and you are disappointed with it I am sorry about that, I boutght it and I am very happy with it, further from linux aspects I think that skype integration and webbrowser have no rival on the market.

Regards!

[twaelti]

Thus, there are people like me that can use the N900 how it should be used that still wish it would not stumble on basic and technologically prehistoric things like bluetooth file transfers and desktop/device sync. I also sympathize with the users that bizarrely cannot enter USSD codes due to this basic GSM telephone function not being present in the N900 phone app.
Off-Topic a few tips to reduce the amount of suffering ;)

Use Petrovic for Bluetooth file sharing (sending)
Install OpenSSH on the device and a SFTP client on your Vista (e.g. Tunnelier from Bitvise))
Use the USSD widget

[daperl]

Now, with that said, don't dismiss what I'm saying. Simply put, all of this freedom has netted not much. Like my father once said... "people take freedom as to meaning they can do a whole lot of nothing..."

If I couldn't choose to do "a whole lot of nothing," could I be considered free?

And that's what I see. A fractured bunch, waiting on updates and apps with no real corporate apps in sight, on a platform that can compile a few languages that support the admin types on their phone that if they're not careful might lead to a re-flash but no real attempts at an expansion of the phone as a platform - outside of the wifi hotspot app, I admit that is pretty darn fly.

I can't help feeling that you're just seeing what you want to see.

In statistical terms, the promise of FOSS is very similar to an unsupervised clustering algorithm with good data. The cream will organize and rise to the top.

Apple is being steered by a deeply passionate visionary dictator.

Although diametrically opposed, both strategies can be very successful, and both strategies can coexist with an uncorrupted or fair rule of law. I'm slightly more optimistic than texrat.

The freedom to do everything has so far produced nothing.

I'm not sure that it matters, but I don't think you even own an n900. So as someone that does, and as someone that also enjoys a freedom that very few will ever know, I have to disagree with you. The freedom to do everything produces the only things worth producing.

And yes... I'm totally playing devil's advocate ;)

And I'm playing freedom's advocate.

[harp]

To be fair if you read any review for the N900 you would find out about its weaknesses pretty fast. I was also disappointed with Nokia post meego announcement. They acted like a headless chicken and let the hysteria build up. It almost seemed like they had no roadmap concerning the N900 at that stage.

But at some point I took a step back from the window into the future and looked at the black slab in my hands. It does everything I want, I haven't spent a cent on software for it and being a newcomer to the linux scene, the community is amazing and continues to surprise me on a daily basis.

[vmajor]

Off-Topic a few tips to reduce the amount of suffering ;)

Use Petrovic for Bluetooth file sharing (sending)
Install OpenSSH on the device and a SFTP client on your Vista (e.g. Tunnelier from Bitvise))
Use the USSD widget



hehe...OK

Bluetooth, see here: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9606
Petrovich also fails.

SSH: I already use it

USSD: I have no need for it, but stumbled upon this issue on the forums here.

V.

[superg05]

Just because you can't see PR 1.2 doesn't mean it isn't there.

lol...............

[bandora]

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

http://www.flagstafffrenzy.org/wp-content/uploads/2005/06/vader-choke.jpg

Sorry, someone had to do it.

Family Guy version:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BfiplSzBvsY/SG5tCSYt7_I/AAAAAAAABXE/a_ZVS5pJvho/s320/stewie-725349.png

I really had to do it.... xD

[Mengs]

This has got to be a joke. I can't believe the amount of people defending Nokia. I used to love all my Nokia phones, and especially the symbian ones.

In the case of N900, Nokia dropped the ball! Almost as annoying as Apple fanboys this is getting out of hand. Not only the amount of people that are defending Nokia, but also the amount of people starting new threads on how they are losing faith!

Facts are facts, Nokia is hardly rolling out any support for this phone. I mean seriously, it's been about 5months since I got the phone and Ovi store is still in beta with no useful programs (no, I'm not talking about games!). I'm not looking for an apple appstore here, but just a normal store that can get me what I want. Only thing I can say that is good about phone (or computer as some of you like to call it to make yourself feel better), is the web browser and even that sucks from time to time!

at times my music will jerk when I open a new page. or the screen will stay dark when someone calls me. or when I accidentally rotate the phone when I have an incoming call and now I can't answer it!

Get it already, it's a phone first and a computer second! I shouldn't need to overclock anything hoping for the phone to work better, it should be a standard feature.

The real sad part is that the phone has been released for about 5 months, and we have gotten one large update. If the phone was released today, with 1.1 features there would still be many people that are not satisfied. This just tells me that Nokia are not putting enough resources to make n900 owners happy.

Yeah yeah, blaa blaa blaa, this phone was never supposed to be controlled by nokia and the community is working on it. I've seen couple of arguments on how it's better to know that atleast someone is working on it, rather than be kept in the dark. Not true! I don't mind being kept in the dark if the freaking thing didn't have that many bugs on it!

The fanboys really have to give me a break, the defending of Nokia is getting out of hand. Just admit that they screwed us over on this one...

[shugg]

@Mengs

Sure enough I can see your point and they are valid, so sell the N900 and move on, you'll be happy and the fan boys will be happy.

As for Nokia resources, well that needs to be aimed at Nokia not in here. They have jumped into bed with Intel and Apple are thinking of buying ARM so there's obviously a plan moving forward but support for the N900 will continue.

[johnel]

Nokia "Management" are to blame for the current situation.

As it stands, Nokia are about to lose the smartphone market entirely.

Which basically means Nokia's "only" market will be low to mid price mobile phones. The days of selling high-end devices are beginning to drift past Nokia.

Now Nokia still have the majority marketshare of mobile phones in general and will probably be that way for some time. They are very good at it.

But markets change and technology moves at a very fast rate.

Unless Nokia get MeeGo right then the last chance of being a smartphone player will have passed.

One of the major selling points of devices like iPhone and android is the availability of applications. Both Apple and Google understand this very well and Nokia completely misses this.

My friends who recently bought either iPhone or android all say the same thing "I want download and play with the cool applications".

This is beyond Nokia's understanding and this is why they are doing so badly at the moment.

The OVI store is a joke. My partner has a nokia 5800 and has downloaded a couple of apps from the store. She says she won't pay for any because "It's only a mobile phone and only cost me couple of hunded pounds". She likes my n900 but she hates using it to phone people. She thinks the gui feels wierd and prefers using her 5800.
(I know, I know the n900 is "not a phone" but it is still important)

I spent £500 on my n900. Would I buy apps for it?
Yes, I would.

Do you see?

If Nokia got the app "ecosystem" right then they would have been in a strong position to compete in the smartphone market.

At the moment Symbian is the dominant platform on Nokia devices and thier focus is on this. Which was fine until now.

I guess Nokia "Mangaement" are saying:

"Why should we change our strategy? Our mobile phones are selling really well. All we need to do is create a premiuim device with Symbian and use our existing strategy - it always worked before."

"Let me get this straight you want to use the software from our tablet devices and use it to make a mobile phone? But Symbian is for mobile phones not this new-fangled Linux stuff you kids are talking about!

Tell you what we'll increase your budget and you manufacture this tablet/phone. Present it to the board and if you are lucky do a limited release."

"Wait a minute! What do you mean you want to expand the tablet/phone Linux programme?
Are you nuts?
We are losing marketshare to Apple and Google and we need to respond quickly. We've earmarked a budget to release 3 new Symbian-based phones and going to undercut these so called 'smartphones"...."

You get the picture...

if I was a shareholder I would be going completely nuts!

I think the people directly responsible for creating maemo and the n900 have done a fantastic job but I think they are being hamstrung by Nokia "Management".

Unless something changes then Nokia will become just another budget handset maker.

[Mengs]

@shugg

True, I could just sell the phone and get an android (or whatever), but that's not even the point!

I think that if I paid ~600€ for a phone, that's what I should get... or maybe I paid 600€ for a computer, but trust me that that is not what we're getting either. Pretty much what we got was a 600€ phone that tries to act as a part computer, but fails at both.

[benny1967]

As it stands, Nokia are about to lose the smartphone market entirely.

Talking about reality distortion... market shares up (smartphone market), profit and turnover up, by far the most successful smartphone vendor in the universe (>40% market share), and they're "about to lose the market entirely".

[bandora]

It's not that we're fanboys of Nokia but we actually do some research/reading/LISTENING before we buy something... Nokia has always stated that Maemo 5 and N900 is step 4/5 and it's meant to be a device mostly for DEVELOPERS/TESTERS... So in other words the N900 was meant to be more of a community driven device... But people are dumb enough to ignore all this and start complaining here on (maemo.org); WHICH IS A COMMUNITY SITE and not an official Nokia support forum... And they're dumb enough to keep on posting new threads almost everyday without searching... So everyonne who is complaining about this is really just showing the rest that you have not done your homework and now you're complaining why you're getting a bad grade... Do you see how that really is dumb now?

[shugg]

@Mengs

600 euros ouch, I can see why you're pissed, still I'd cut my losses as it appears you're not going to be happy re the functionality with the device either as a phone or mini pc.

I guess that's why I never pay hard cash for new devices like this and opt for contract upgrades, if it's not what I want regardless what others say, I exchange it within the allowed timescale.

[ZogG]

so you wanna hug or what? keep that threads for your personal blogs please.

[shugg]

It's not that we're fanboys of Nokia but we actually do some research/reading/LISTENING before we buy something... Nokia has always stated that Maemo 5 and N900 is step 4/5 and it's meant to be a device mostly for DEVELOPERS/TESTERS... So in other words the N900 was meant to be more of a community driven device... But people are dumb enough to ignore all this and start complaining here on (maemo.org); WHICH IS A COMMUNITY SITE and not an official Nokia support forum... And they're dumb enough to keep on posting new threads almost everyday without searching... So everyonne who is complaining about this is really just showing the rest that you have not done your homework and now you're complaining why you're getting a bad grade...

True enough. but calling people dum doesn't help, if this really was a device for the community as you infer then perhaps Nokia should have been a bit more upfront about it's intended audience.

The issue I can see is that no amount of research in the early days revealed this to be the case, Vodafone said nothing of the sort and happily sold it to folk as a smartphone couple this with reviews on TV from those highly knowledgeable chaps on the gadget show ;) and you can see why some would have assumed they were getting phone as opposed to a community developer device.

So hands on research was the only way to really decide if it's for them or not.

If people are buying it now then they deserve what they get as there is plenty of information re the potential pitfalls of this device. Which I guess is why some people post in here.

[ZogG]

It's not that we're fanboys of Nokia but we actually do some research/reading/LISTENING before we buy something... Nokia has always stated that Maemo 5 and N900 is step 4/5 and it's meant to be a device mostly for DEVELOPERS/TESTERS... So in other words the N900 was meant to be more of a community driven device... But people are dumb enough to ignore all this and start complaining here on (maemo.org); WHICH IS A COMMUNITY SITE and not an official Nokia support forum... And they're dumb enough to keep on posting new threads almost everyday without searching... So everyonne who is complaining about this is really just showing the rest that you have not done your homework and now you're complaining why you're getting a bad grade... Do you see how that really is dumb now?

from today to every "hate n900" thread i'll post 2 "i love n900" threads i think

[michou]

I honestly don't understand what the fuss is about. I agree with some of the posts, that yes Nokia has missed the mark with their high-end smartphones, but then at the same time they are the best sellers in developing countries such as China, India, Africa. I tend to visit the Middle East and North Africa on a frequent basis and in those countries Nokia is the phone to have. I just think that looking at a small (although growing) segment like smartphones doesn't really give you the greater picture. The developing World are going to catchup with the rest of us and they will not be doing so with an iPhone in their pocket, but with an affordable phone.

Anyway, all Companies have highs and lows, I remember when I was a child the TV to have was a Sony, today there is more competition in the TV market. Notice I am not saying that Sony is not as good as its competitors, but there was no Samsung or LG making TV's at the time (or not to my knowledge). None the less Sony is still in the running of being the biggest TV manufacturer in the World.

Nokia must answer to the new competition (iPhone, HTC, etc.). Also note that both Motorola and Ericsson (now SonyEricsson) were with Nokia the 3 largest mobile phone manufacturers about 15 years ago, both of those companies are struggling to survive at the moment. Whilst Nokia is still the biggest mobile phone manufacturer. So lets see how well Nokia bounces back from all of this, hopefully they will learn from their mistakes and bring a more successful smartphone to the market. But I wouldn't count them out of the race just yet.

[Bijiont]

True enough. but calling people dum doesn't help, if this really was a device for the community as you infer then perhaps Nokia should have been a bit more upfront about it's intended audience.

The issue I can see is that no amount of research in the early days revealed this to be the case, Vodafone said nothing of the sort and happily sold it to folk as a smartphone couple this with reviews on TV from those highly knowledgeable chaps on the gadget show ;) and you can see why some would have assumed they were getting phone as opposed to a community developer device.

So hands on research was the only way to really decide if it's for them or not.

If people are buying it now then they deserve what they get as there is plenty of information re the potential pitfalls of this device. Which I guess is why some people post in here.

Not trying to argue but making a small point.

I never recalled the N900 being mentioned as a phone when I was looking at the device. I seem to recall it being mentioned as a Internet Tablet with GSM functionality.

If you look most if not all Nokia's internet tablets were more community driven then Nokia.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

[johnel]

Talking about reality distortion... market shares up (smartphone market), profit and turnover up, by far the most successful smartphone vendor in the universe (>40% market share), and they're "about to lose the market entirely".

OK - just read my post and maybe it is not imminent but it is starting to happen - until Nokia "wake up" then Nokia's smartphone share wil go "bye-bye".

"Nokia Hurt by Further Delay to Smartphones"
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article7105683.ece

"Deep Value ot Value Trap"
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB127188582455080717.html?mod=rss_barrons_technolo gy

"Nokia Profit May Show Less Bounce as IPhones Spread"
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-21/nokia-profit-may-show-less-bounce-as-iphones-spread-update1-.html

3 new "low cost" smartphones from Nokia.
http://www.sci-tech-today.com/news/Nokia-Offers-Low-Cost-Smartphones/story.xhtml?story_id=031003GMANY3&full_skip=1

Not a good sign.

Android is now everywhere; Sony-Ericsson, Samsung, Motorola...

[shugg]

Not trying to argue but making a small point.

I never recalled the N900 being mentioned as a phone when I was looking at the device. I seem to recall it being mentioned as a Internet Tablet with GSM functionality.

If you look most if not all Nokia's internet tablets were more community driven then Nokia.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

Actually I agree re the research, hence why I said if people are buying it now they deserve what they get :)

[h3llraz0r]

Several Linux distributions have been trying to become mainstream unsuccessfully and Maemo is no exception. This phone was intended for the general public believe it or not.


I appreciate the respectable and thoughtful replies but those who are calling the N900 a "developer phone" and urge those who complain about bad support to sell it is counter productive for the whole process of making Maemo/Meego mainstream. Linux's success in the world will not be based on what a nerd will do on his terminal for his own pleasure but how he can make that terminal disappear for us to still be able to use Linux at its fullest.

[shugg]

so you wanna hug or what? keep that threads for your personal blogs please.

:rolleyes: I have the phone so I'd rather hug that than you, but thanks for the offer.

[Red]

I honestly don't understand what the fuss is about. I agree with some of the posts, that yes Nokia has missed the mark with their high-end smartphones, but then at the same time they are the best sellers in developing countries such as China, India, Africa.

Right now I'd agree with you, but let's take a longer view. As these countries "tech up"( and yeah I admit the charge of parochialism here but I don't know another way to phrase it), and access to charging points away from urban centres becomes more readily available, the need for a phone which lasts a week becomes less important. The features that a smartphone provides will become more important.

As that happens, which brands are going to gain the most? In my opinion it'll be the aspirational brands, the ones which say "Hey, I've made it. I'm on a level playing field in the international arena". And guess which one is top of the heap from an aspirational perspective?

I fully accept that Nokia are the market leaders, and I would love nothing better than to see them wipe Mr. Job's execrable business model off the map and have apple be forced to be more open and less proscriptive, but to do that they need to have a credible consumer smartphone out there. For all its glory, openness, amazing feature set and looks, the N900 isn't it ... yet.

[twigleaf1976]

Everyone I know has an HTC (running winmo 6.5 or android) or an iphone. No one has a nokia, All of work (NHS) have blackberrys. Given my circle of friends are all tech geeks who work in IT and into cutting edge stuff with regards using their phones more than a normal person, I think the fact none of them remotely touch Nokia is damning. One had a N97 for a month but sent it back for lots of reasons.

They make cheap and nasty candy bars for emerging markets, or cheap company phones with limited tech on board, but as smartphones there is little too shout about. So I think they will keep their market share but it won't be a worth while market share, everyone does candy bar phones and the money is in the higher end phones.

Having played with an HTC desire (basically the nexus without google) over the weekend, I am truly saddened at how far android and the android market place have gone in such a short time. 7 screens of loveliness that whooped my N900 phone. Apps to die for. Shows what a company supporting their products can do, to me at least. (and I can't stand google)

[Venemo]

I'm losing faith in Nokia.
Seriously, who cares?
You could already moan about it in the N+1th topic in here about that.
But nooooooo, you HAD TO open a new thread to show off... Great!

Now go sell your N900 on Ebay, buy an iPhone! I mean, seriously!
Until the next Maemo device comes out, you can still fetch a decent price for your few-month-old N900.

Perhaps the new owner will contribute to this community better!

For the same money, you can easily buy an iPhone, and you can then start your whining in in here (http://discussions.apple.com/category.jspa?categoryID=245).

[johnel]

...
They make cheap and nasty candy bars for emerging markets, or cheap company phones with limited tech on board, but as smartphones there is little too shout about. So I think they will keep their market share but it won't be a worth while market share, everyone does candy bar phones and the money is in the higher end phones.
...


This is exactly what is going to happen - I realised this back in January where a Nokia director said "it is unlikely the n900 would get free OVI maps" and the deafening silence that followed.

Nokia's future will be mobile phone maker not smartphone maker.

It's a damn shame I was hoping Nokia would step up to the challenge. I was kinda proud of a european company holding it's own against 2 american companies.

As Orange would say "The future is bright the future is orange"

As Nokia would say "The future is dull the future is a mildy insipid grey"

[Venemo]

Okay, so, this is getting ridiculous.
Seriously.
I'm okay with one or two threads about this, but it is simly ridiculous that every noob (denoted by some as a 'troll') has his own whining thread in this forum.

We should organize an event here on the forums.
All the people who whine about the N900 should sell their N900s to people who don't have the device but are interested in it.
And to those people who want to take part in the community, but they can't afford to buy a new one, this would be a great opportunity.

And then, all the whiners could buy an iPhone (or HTC, whatever), and go off to Apple's and HTC's forums to whine about their devices.

This would reduce the amount of work for moderators, the server bandwith costs, and it would be also great to find actually meaningful threads in the "Active Topics" section.

And also, we would get new people who would actually contribute to the community, not just whine here about the same over and again.
(I'm beginning to think that they are employees of a competitor company, and are PAID for this.)

[johnel]

Okay, so, this is getting ridiculous.
Seriously.
I'm okay with one or two threads about this, but it is simly ridiculous that every noob (denoted by some as a 'troll') has his own whining thread in this forum.

We should organize an event here on the forums.
All the people who whine about the N900 should sell their N900s to people who don't have the device but are interested in it.
And to those people who want to take part in the community, but they can't afford to buy a new one, this would be a great opportunity.

And then, all the whiners could buy an iPhone (or HTC, whatever), and go off to Apple's and HTC's forums to whine about their devices.

This would reduce the amount of work for moderators, the server bandwith costs, and it would be also great to find actually meaningful threads in the "Active Topics" section.

And also, we would get new people who would actually contribute to the community, not just whine here about the same over and again.
(I'm beginning to think that they are employees of a competitor company, and are PAID for this.)

At the moment this thread is discussing the ability of Nokia to compete in the smartphone market place.

Nobody is whining about the n900.
It is an intelligent discussion until you posted your rant.

I suggest you stop reading this thread any further.

Your post also has a sense of irony too.

[gerbick]

If I couldn't choose to do "a whole lot of nothing," could I be considered free?

Feel free to do discover so...
I can't help feeling that you're just seeing what you want to see.

Last Skype update was when? How's that freedom working on bring that forward facing camera into use outside of aMSN?

I'm basing things on facts. And amazingly so, I don't want Maemo to seem like it's lacking. But it is... at least it is (and I've stated this before ad nauseum) for this customer.

Apple is being steered by a deeply passionate visionary dictator.

No argument there. One that's really pissing me off as of late. Blame the Adobe Flash dev in me and that lil' SDK addition.

But I'll not get into the open-closed source argument. I'll support what fits my needs the best.

I'm not sure that it matters, but I don't think you even own an n900.

No compelling reasons to buy one. I'm not going to move to a cellphone company that doesn't have 3G in my area, I refuse to drop down to EDGE, I refuse to buy a phone where the upgrade path isn't as obvious as it should/could be and I need a proper Twitter app and/or GPS that actually locks in mere moments. I've used the N900... it locked sometimes up to 6-10 minutes while in cities - was just in Pittsburgh, it took 7 minutes while downtown.

Among other needs that are sorely not met 100% due to my Mac usage (among Linux & Win7 & Win2k3/2k8 Server usage)... I can't sync to my Mac. There's a few workarounds posted here, but that's such a convoluted way to do things all of the time.

So as someone that does, and as someone that also enjoys a freedom that very few will ever know, I have to disagree with you.

You're free to do so. Just as I'm quite free to disagree.

The freedom to do everything produces the only things worth producing.

It doesn't quite do everything. And to be fair; no platform at the moment does everything. Sadly, people tend to refuse to believe that... if it does everything, please show me how to make a Skype video call. That is important to me... and would mean that it actually does do everything.

And no... it doesn't mean that I'm advocating the iPhone 3G/3GS either. It doesn't even have a forward facing camera. But, via Fring... it can receive video at least. Oh... Fring's not on the N900 yet either.

It does everything... right? That's very subjective to your uses it seems. I can name quite a few more things that it doesn't do for me. Thus... my aforesaid non-purchase.

And I'm playing freedom's advocate.

And I'm a realist. I'm glad you enjoy your N900. Truly am happy for you.

But it's not about "seeing what I want to see"... I see some mighty big gaps that honestly... I'd rather not see. What's so wrong with that?

[Enyibinakata]

Try going onto sites like this for Apple, Google, Android, WM, etc - some of the rants are very familiar...

No company can ever stay on top all the time - it's all about peaks and troughs because no-one can predict markets 100%.

As a handset manufacturer Nokia's record and performance is evident; they make more smartphones for a wider range of people on this planet than any other manufacturer. Symbian is still the most popular smartphone OS, so Nokia are still the 'milestone setter' you first perceived. Maemo/Meego and Symbian^3 will only build on that.

Your recent experience has not satisfied you as an individual. Whilst that is regrettable, I'm sure you understand that Nokia don't make devices just to suit you. You may not be alone in your complaints, but that is a drop in the ocean to a huge company like Nokia who operate in so many markets. It's not that they don't care, it's that they have to look to the big picture to stay in business.

I am not a 'power user', developer or industry insider - I'm just a guy who loves his phones. For me, Nokia are still showing the way: the quality, range and features available mean I'll keep looking at this brand first. I'm not blind to other mfrs, OS's, etc., I try them out and compare with friends, but I keep coming back for some reason...

For me, the N900 is where I want to be: a stable OS, good features (although I'm still missing some) and excellent build quality. Best of all I'm part of the next wave of smartphone/superphone technology that keeps getting better. PR 1.2 will come and now we hear that Meego will definately come. (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=50763) What more do YOU want?

Being at the frontier has allways been challenging - but ultimately more rewarding. Keep the Faith.

Brilliant. Best response I've read in this forum by far. This is the spirit the Maemo community should emulate. No rabid fanboyism but a mature response with a simple acceptance of reality. I SALUTE.

[Mengs]

It's not that we're fanboys of Nokia but we actually do some research/reading/LISTENING before we buy something... Nokia has always stated that Maemo 5 and N900 is step 4/5 and it's meant to be a device mostly for DEVELOPERS/TESTERS... So in other words the N900 was meant to be more of a community driven device... But people are dumb enough to ignore all this and start complaining here on (maemo.org); WHICH IS A COMMUNITY SITE and not an official Nokia support forum... And they're dumb enough to keep on posting new threads almost everyday without searching... So everyonne who is complaining about this is really just showing the rest that you have not done your homework and now you're complaining why you're getting a bad grade... Do you see how that really is dumb now?

You're kidding right? the fact that the device is "mostly for developers/testers" does not equal to community driven. Your logic fails as you made those two connections in your head. Ask yourself this, if Nokia is supporting the phone the way it should be, would you be complaining "hey, why is nokia so hands on with this device? it's supposed to be community driven" and if your reaction is still the same, then I'll give you the win.

See, you're only using the argument that it's supposed to be community driven device because nokia is not really moving this device forward the way it should be!

I still see some people arguing about how it was marketed as a computer in your palms and not a phone etc etc! But even as a computer it's not working the way it's supposed to.

You guys are just repeating yourself! I argue that the phone function doesn't work, you counter that it's not supposed to be a phone but a computer. I say the computer function sucks, you tell me that it's a community driven device. It's like every single argument I have for not liking this phone, people have a counter argument ready to go. Enough already, it doesn't work as a phone, and it definitely doesn't work as a computer, and the community is not really driving this phone forward because of the lack of support from Nokia!

Just admit already that Nokia is not putting enough effort into satisfying their N900 users!

[acano]

I am a very satisfies user. I will not change my N900 for anything. I already tried an i-phone and some andriod phones.

What is the problem?

[gerbick]

Nokia's future will be mobile phone maker not smartphone maker.

I gotta disagree here. Symbian is still tops in terms of market share, and last I checked... 100 million phones is not anything to scoff at. They've improved their numbers, and Nokia happens to be one of the few phone manufacturers with two prongs into the smartphone market.

Right now, I'd just have to say that Nokia looks a bit unfocused. We don't know all of what's down the pipe 100% - and the requirement of patience for all of it to unfold is a bit much to ask in this impatient world we live in now.

It's a damn shame I was hoping Nokia would step up to the challenge.

They did step up to the plate. First with Maemo5. Now with MeeGo. Once all of the pieces are in place, then let's revisit this part of the discussion.

I was kinda proud of a european company holding it's own against 2 american companies.

Apple and who? RIM is Canadian.

As Nokia would say "The future is dull the future is a mildy insipid grey"

I'd say the future is still bright. And despite my critical as hell outlook against the blatant gaps in their offerings right now; I'd say the future is still bright.

Just... we don't know all of it yet.

[Mengs]

I am a very satisfies user. I will not change my N900 for anything. I already tried an i-phone and some andriod phones.

What is the problem?

You might think that I am joking, but could you please list all the things that you are satisfied with?

edit: and if you don't mind, could you list also the things that could be made better?

[cortina61]

Originally Posted by twaelti
Off-Topic a few tips to reduce the amount of suffering
Use Petrovic for Bluetooth file sharing (sending

It works for uploading tp Facebook etc, but I still cant believe I cant bluetooth photos to my pc.
I really miss Nokia image storer, you just put the bluetooth on the phone, and they silently and painlessly saved on the pc with no other action needed.
Seems archaeic to be using a usb cable for this.
I'm sick of my usb lead laying around the lounge or hanging out of my laptop.
Its 2010 for goodness sake!

[acano]

You might think that I am joking, but could you please list all the things that you are satisfied with?

edit: and if you don't mind, could you list also the things that could be made better?

Of course:
- Real Time multitasking. Is amazing to see a video from youtube while seeing if another webpage if downloading.

- Skype integration, I do not use anymore my computer in order to connect to skype I lie in the sofa from them, and workd perfectly. And in few time also video.

- Web browser, workd perfect.

- Telephone workd properly.

- When a need a urgent connextion to a vpn network or via ssh, it work as good as on any of my computers, or even better, because of lacking of virus, and drivers problems.

- 3D Powerful when playing to Open Arena. That is just amazing.

.....

There many other. Do you need more?

[Laughing Man]

Originally Posted by twaelti
Off-Topic a few tips to reduce the amount of suffering
Use Petrovic for Bluetooth file sharing (sending

It works for uploading tp Facebook etc, but I still cant believe I cant bluetooth photos to my pc.
I really miss Nokia image storer, you just put the bluetooth on the phone, and they silently and painlessly saved on the pc with no other action needed.
Seems archaeic to be using a usb cable for this.
I'm sick of my usb lead laying around the lounge or hanging out of my laptop.
Its 2010 for goodness sake!

Not familar with Nokia Image Storer, but what you could do is setup rsync on your computer and N900 (not sure if rsync is available for Windows). SSH might be needed for the connection between your computer and the N900. They will also have to be on the same network unless you configure the ssh tunnel so you can connect to it from a different network (though means you can automatically sync photos away from home if you leave your computer and network on)

[Mengs]

Of course:
- Real Time multitasking. Is amazing to see a video from youtube while seeing if another webpage if downloading.

- Skype integration, I do not use anymore my computer in order to connect to skype I lie in the sofa from them, and workd perfectly. And in few time also video.

- Web browser, workd perfect.

- Telephone workd properly.

- When a need a urgent connextion to a vpn network or via ssh, it work as good as on any of my computers, or even better, because of lacking of virus, and drivers problems.

- 3D Powerful when playing to Open Arena. That is just amazing.

.....

There many other. Do you need more?

Cool... I think we just have to agree to disagree.

Personally I love the web browser and was super excited about firefox jumping on board! but the phone function just doesn't work as well as I hoped for, and neither does the multitasking. Sure, it's fancy to look at a youtube video in small screen while another page loads, but couple more programs open and I find the lag just incredibly annoying.

But like said, agree to disagree.

[gerbick]

For those that have lost faith... what exactly would earn your faith and trust again?

[acano]

Cool... I think we just have to agree to disagree.

Personally I love the web browser and was super excited about firefox jumping on board! but the phone function just doesn't work as well as I hoped for, and neither does the multitasking. Sure, it's fancy to look at a youtube video in small screen while another page loads, but couple more programs open and I find the lag just incredibly annoying.

But like said, agree to disagree.

Thanks for your kind answer. About your problems with real multitasking I can only say that that real multitasking work much more better than any one I show on any Real Computer beeing the CPU much more lower. And of course much more better than i-phone multitasking even in i-phone 4G, ha ha, sorry but that multitasking is ridicoulous and all the people is speaking about it....
Regards!!!

[geneven]

Not everyone enjoys using a pioneering device that the community has a huge role in building itself. It's true that things are missing. it's a lot more convenientto be a Stepford user in a Stepford world where the corporation handles all the important details.

[cortina61]

''Not familar with Nokia Image Storer, but what you could do is setup rsync on your computer and N900 (not sure if rsync is available for Windows). SSH might be needed for the connection between your computer and the N900. They will also have to be on the same network unless you configure the ssh tunnel so you can connect to it from a different network (though means you can automatically sync photos away from home if you leave your computer and network on) ''




not being funny, but to me this might as well be written in Chinese.


I would love just one real example of a marketing video for the N900 that ever said it was not meant to be mainstream and was for peope who would understand how to make it work properly
I hear it ll the time on here that we should have done our research. I honestly did, and not once was anything saying to me dont do it love its too technical for you

It came on contract with Vodafone, who I trusted to sell me a phone with additional capabilities not an internet tablet that is rubbish at everyday things but hey you can spent hours modifying it and see if you can make it do something useful, possibly disabling it completely, or just reflash it and use as a controller for your PS 3 or emulate Nintendo games,
Yeah great!

[Mengs]

I don't disagree with you on the iphone... And yes, there's definitely real multi tasking on the n900, but the functionality of the multitasking is up for debate.

[Mengs]

For those that have lost faith... what exactly would earn your faith and trust again?

Better and faster support? I don't mind being kept in the dark (I know it bothers some people, but not me particularly cos I see why things are kept hush before they are released).

But to say that Nokia has been helpful and doing all they can for the N900 is quite a stretch... But that is a good question which I'm not sure that I have a solid answer for. Opening up Ovi store for more apps could be a good start, no?

[acano]

I don't disagree with you on the iphone... And yes, there's definitely real multi tasking on the n900, but the functionality of the multitasking is up for debate.

Of course this is not perfect. But it is enough for me, and in my opinion the best "real" option in the market.

Why nobody complains about redicoulous iphone-multitasking? Just unbelievable.

[johnel]

I gotta disagree here. Symbian is still tops in terms of market share, and last I checked... 100 million phones is not anything to scoff at. They've improved their numbers, and Nokia happens to be one of the few phone manufacturers with two prongs into the smartphone market.

Right now, I'd just have to say that Nokia looks a bit unfocused. We don't know all of what's down the pipe 100% - and the requirement of patience for all of it to unfold is a bit much to ask in this impatient world we live in now.


Symbian as a platform was originally designed for mobile phones but from what I can gather (from other people) has had it's day. Symbian is installed on almost all Nokia handsets but as a modern platform is showing it's limitations. Nokia open-sourced symbian but did that too late. It's fine for simple functionality but to compete as a smartphone OS then no not capable.

The key phrase here is smartphone. Loosely, defining smartphone as something along the lines of android & iPhone and the application support around that.

Nokia have failed with this (so far, e.g. N97).


With regards to mobile phones as defined by focused on making mobile calls then Nokia win by volume. Unfortunately these devices range from £20 to about £300 (ish). But also means profit margins on these are probably smaller than something retailing at £400 upwards. Then from a customer perspective iPhone, android & blackberries become more appealing.

As a result the ceiling price for a Nokia phone has been set.

Yep, Nokia lead the way with mobile phones as volume but the market is changing and the customer wants more from mobile devices.

In the smartphone market is seems to be the applications that are driving demand.
Nokia utterly fail to understand this.

Apple and who? RIM is Canadian.
I was thinking about Apple & Google. :)

Just... we don't know all of it yet.
Very true let's see what happens.

[gerbick]

Why nobody complains about redicoulous iphone-multitasking? Just unbelievable.

Because that's not multi-tasking. That's serial-tasking. No marketing drivel will make me believe otherwise.

[NokTokDaddy]

You're kidding right? ...

I still see some people arguing about how it was marketed as a computer in your palms and not a phone etc etc! But even as a computer it's not working the way it's supposed to.

You guys are just repeating yourself! I argue that the phone function doesn't work, you counter that it's not supposed to be a phone but a computer. I say the computer function sucks, you tell me that it's a community driven device. It's like every single argument I have for not liking this phone, people have a counter argument ready to go.

Just admit already that Nokia is not putting enough effort into satisfying their N900 users!

I have posted elsewhere that I never bought into the 'internet tablet/it's a computer' excuse, but having used the N900 mainly as a phone I can see where this arguement was coming from:

The N900 mobile phone dials numbers more like you would from a computer than from a conventional phone.

If you need to have conventional speed-dial you need to have physical buttons.A touchscreen powers down /locks out to save battery and touchscreens are too sensitive to be left on all the time anyway. If you need speed dial and single-handed action to (say) dial whilst you're driving N900 is not the best choice - buy a phone with physical buttons.

On just about every touchscreen phone you have to do things to make a call. Typically:


Slide open/power up
Select contacts list
Input letters from name
Select contact
Select the right number
Dial


or at least:

Slide open/power up
Select favourite contacts or dial pad
press and hold conact/speed dial number to dial


On my N900:


Power Up/Slide Open
Input letters from name
Select contact
Tap the right number to dial


or:


Slide open/power up
Select (tap) contact from desktop
tap the right number to dial



What could be easier than that? I can run 30 contacts over three homepages - that's over 60 numbers. The N900 is unbeatable as a telephone, IMO, but perhaps we should start a campaign for telekinetic dialing on PR1.3...

I know some people have issues with accepting calls - that ties in to your second point about develoment and support. I don't think Nokia are any better or any worse than other mfrs in this respect. Go to an iphone, Android or WM forum and see the rants about waiting for updates and missing features generally. We are not alone!

We are getting ongoing support for N900 from Nokia. If you gather tweets like I do you'll notice a week rarely goes by without Nokia releasing updates to older models - some now quite venerable. We have had updates and we know updates are imminent because they have told us. Just what evidence to you have to think N900 will be an exception to this policy?

We also have the added support of this forum and the clever buggers who can write apps and develop the software alongside Nokia.

I don't think you'll get that package elsewhere, but I'm open to any suggestions you might have. Polite ones, of course :)

[Enyibinakata]

Everyone I know has an HTC (running winmo 6.5 or android) or an iphone. No one has a nokia, All of work (NHS) have blackberrys. Given my circle of friends are all tech geeks who work in IT and into cutting edge stuff with regards using their phones more than a normal person, I think the fact none of them remotely touch Nokia is damning. One had a N97 for a month but sent it back for lots of reasons.

They make cheap and nasty candy bars for emerging markets, or cheap company phones with limited tech on board, but as smartphones there is little too shout about. So I think they will keep their market share but it won't be a worth while market share, everyone does candy bar phones and the money is in the higher end phones.

Having played with an HTC desire (basically the nexus without google) over the weekend, I am truly saddened at how far android and the android market place have gone in such a short time. 7 screens of loveliness that whooped my N900 phone. Apps to die for. Shows what a company supporting their products can do, to me at least. (and I can't stand google)

I gues it depends on your priorities. For me the speaker, sound quality, camera, real keyboard and TV-OUT are essential. I really want an HTC Desire but it does not meet the mark - mono speaker, poor camera and no TV-OUT. I dont get the apps thing, the N900s browser does it for me. Which app is really 'to die for' ? and what exactly do you need 7 screens for ?. Nokia is not firing on all cylinders but yet they are still far and away the most prevalent and make the best hardware and own the most advanced OS in Maemo. Just wait until the giant wakes up!. None of these phones sound better than my Nokia 5800 which costs considerably less. Nokia will stay on top for at least the next 10 years. Apple will exit once smartphone gets comoditized and margins take a dive.

Check out this article if you care. Peace and happy mobileing to you. .

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2010/4/22/bloodbath-in-smartphones-continues-1q-results-from-apple2c-att-and-nokia.aspx?pageid=1

[acano]

Because that's not multi-tasking. That's serial-tasking. No marketing drivel will make me believe otherwise.

May be not you but the most of the people do so.

Is human beeing so simple?

Regards!!

[jcompagner]

if find all these threads very amusing i must say,
But i also think what is the problem that people seem to have.
A comparison of my N900 with my previous phone the E90 (symbian, a real phone on enterprise level)
The things i did with the E90, ordered in importance:

1> Web Browsing
2> Email
3> SMS (gsm or voip)
4> Phone (gsm or voip)
5> IM (chatting, calling i almost don't do because i use real voip (a betamax client))

The N900 wins 3 those 5 points by a large margin...
1> MicroB is way way better then the browser on the E90
3> SMS better integration with contacts book, conversations that really work (E90 it crashes)
5> IM no need for a separate applicaiton, everything perfectly integrated into contacts, with conversations support.

Then 1 point that i see pretty equal but the N900 could be a bit better:
4> Phone , normal dialing , contacts on desktop, call log, all work fine

only 2 points that should improve:
1> Voice dialing i really mis in my car.
2> It happens now and then that the phone rings but the N900 is busy with something (i believe if i have browser windows open...) that the N900 struggles to get the app to font so that i can answer it!
This last point really should be looked at, if the phone rings, the phone app should take the highest priority and all others the lowest. This is also 1 area why i am really looking forward to a dual core Cortext A9.. that will boost mobile computing as much as dual core on the desktop did!!!

then i come to point 2... Email
Yes now i agree with that the N900 fails big time here (for a mobile computer!)
The combination i had on the E90:

Profimail for some IMAP accounts and the java gmail app for gmail stuff is so much better then the N900 combination of Modest for the imap (and or gmail) or gmail also in the browser...

That area really needs some love, modest just plain sucks... It is usable for a bit, but thats just it.

[ysss]

I think this summer the feeling of 'left behind' will be markedly reinforced as apple release their new iPhone and OS. It wouldn't be a stretch to predict that mobile IP Video conferencing is gonna be THE feature people will be asking about when they talk about smart phones as apple hypes it up to sell their new handset.

This is trend is predictable... this feature is doable on the N900... yet why isn't there any visible development of N900 in that area? It would feel as if we've known what's coming all along and we're not doing a thing to stop it.

@enyibinikata: mono speaker? seriously dude.. how stereo can you get with a couple of inches of separation?

[benny1967]

It wouldn't be a stretch to predict that mobile IP Video conferencing is gonna be THE feature people will be asking about when they talk about smart phones as apple hypes it up to sell their new handset.

...which, if true, would only tell how incredibly dumb comsumers are.

Video calls are available on phones since 2003 or so... IP-based solutions followed later but are available for S60 phones.

If they actually manage to sell video calls (even if only IP-based) on the iPhone as the new "big thing", mankind is lost. Ants will take over and rule the world. :)

[geneven]

You can easily have nine screens on the N900 btw.

[ysss]

...which, if true, would only tell how incredibly dumb comsumers are.

Video calls are available on phones since 2003 or so... IP-based solutions followed later but are available for S60 phones.

If they actually manage to sell video calls (even if only IP-based) on the iPhone as the new "big thing", mankind is lost. Ants will take over and rule the world. :)

The question is, why didn't it sell?

Could it be that the hardware and software support wasn't available with the right price, quality and availability back then?

few possible factors:
- the high price of packet cellular data back then
- it wasn't as exciting on 160x120 256colors screen
- what video codec were used back then?
- was it supported by as many IM services as it is today?
- etc :)

Timing is a key element in all this. You can't simply be the first to bring something to market with bad timing and be a whiny loser when someone else executes it correctly to their benefit.

Anyway, what's stopping N900 to take away Apple's thunder?
Can we even play chatroulette on N900?

[vmajor]

I don't disagree with you on the iphone... And yes, there's definitely real multi tasking on the n900, but the functionality of the multitasking is up for debate.


um... no it is not. Maybe in Apple or MSDOS fantasy world yes, otherwise no.

V.

[abill_uk]

OUCH this thread is very sad to read and for once it was started by a real gentleman who does NOT use sadistic comments like some on this community i might add, but mearly states fact and i must agree with him because he talks common sense with reality unlike the die hard Nokia fans that simply will not allow negative comments regarding Nokia or there N900.
N900 is Nokia worst mobile whatever in Nokia's history without a shadow of a doubt.
The sad fact is that many many have already sold on or are about to sell there N900's (take a look at the "HTC Desire vs N900. First impressions" thread for example.)
In some kind of defense of Nokia i will say this, when the next upgrade does come, there for sure will be a few sorry people out there for selling there N900's and also the bad times will be very easy forgot when the N900 does start to shine in its own right.
Please people try to remember there really is NO need for nasty comments directed at any user's as this should be a forum of education not for slander
as everyone has the right to an opinion WITHOUT nastiness.
Many if not all N900 users wish it's not too long for the much needed OS upgrade.

[PolarWolf]

All that whining about that missing app store. My app store is the application manager and the various repositories. But then again, I'm used to repository based software distribution and was really excited to learn Nokia jumped on that concept with Maego. Funny how an iPhone adept who sits next to me at work raves about his jailbroken device and how he can now use a software repository which is very similar to Maemo's instead of an app store, and yet people here go on and on about Nokia not having one. My position is that we really don't need one.

BTW, I did know what I was getting into with buying an N900, and any alternative I'll consider will be held to the N900 as benchmark (and likely lose).

[edanto]

It's not that we're fanboys of Nokia but we actually do some research/reading/LISTENING before we buy something... Nokia has always stated that Maemo 5 and N900 is step 4/5 and it's meant to be a device mostly for DEVELOPERS/TESTERS... So in other words the N900 was meant to be more of a community driven device... But people are dumb enough to ignore all this and start complaining here on (maemo.org); WHICH IS A COMMUNITY SITE and not an official Nokia support forum...

Hey, I'm kindof annoyed with Nokia for misleading me about what the N900 could do. For me, the battery life is terrible, and batterygraph doesn't help me much at all. I just see that Network is busy all the time. There is an Evernote App adverstised on the Nokia site for the N900 that doesn't exist.

I'm glad that somewhere like talk.maemo.org exists, so that I can learn something, but ultimately I place blame at a disconnect between the Nokia phone building people and the Nokia marketing people.

The N900 is probably a great little computer, but for me it's a frustrating experience because I am being forced to solve problems and learn linux when want to do reasonably straightforward things.

My experience does not match this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYnx0PUX7Do

At the same time, my sincere thanks to the community of people here that are working hard to develop things for the platform, I will help in the limited way that I can.

For now, I hope that someone from Nokia HQ is reading this thread and gets a sense of the urgent need to update the software on the phone.

[ysss]

Let's throw a few more variables to see the complete picture. Multitasking isn't without cost. It consumes CPU & RAM and ultimately battery life.

If one can identify which functionalities need 'realtime' background\parallel execution and which can be provided by simple serial-tasking (State saving, quick app swap mechanism) to get the benefit of speedier front-app execution and less resource waste, then that's a trade off that may be worth considering.

[Laughingstok]

I'm not here to defend Nokia. They definitely "screwed up" if ones view is that the N900 should cater to hipsters who think the most important things in the world are music and YouTube.

That's a definite truth.

But if you want a device to do real IT work on, this device can't be beat. Hands down. They could have left it Maemo version 1.0 and I'd still be fine with it, but of course I've stated this multiple times in these forums. I vpn and hack in shells most of my work day. Being able to stand on Natural Bridge and fix problems is nice.. (as nice as working while hiking can be. :D)