Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.

[Konceptz]

Just wanted some first hand information about the financial climate for any of you that live with the Euro.

I don't always trust the news here in the US, especially when dealing with worldwide affairs.

[lorul2]

I thought Rupert Murdoch owned media in Europe also?

-Sorry couldn't resist ;)

[benny1967]

Will probably depend on who you talk to: businessmen, consumers, people who read 3 daily newspapers during breakfast, people who never even watch the evening news....

From what hear around me here in Vienna, a lot of people are aware of the problem and are simply flabbergasted by the huge amounts of money politicians are talking about. I also hear somewhat angry comments about Greece and the ongoing protests there, like "Were supposed to pay for them and they go on strike."

OTOH, I don't see any fear or even nervousness about possible economic consequences or the stability of the currency. Maybe this is because the crisis 2009 was talked about everywhere and dominated the news for months, but in the end nobody suffered from it in real life. No losses, nothing. It may have influenced how people react to economic disasters.

[sajman]

not just Greece,

Spain, Portugal and Ireland are on the brink of going the same way

Greece could loose their credit rating and cant borrow money leaving them in deep poop.

Im kinda happy England aren't part of the EURO

[Rauha]

This thread is propably against the no discussion about politics rule.


We* willl never get the money back. Greece will still default on it loans, after the bailout money is used. It's not too big price to pay for european integration and keeping the European Union stable.




*we as in central- and north europeans that end up paying most of the aid and EU's budget.

[moi]

*we as in central- and north europeans that end up paying most of the aid and EU's budget.

is the least you can do. After all, you central and northern european still come on summer to our coasts and enjoy our sun, but also our Public Health System, which pays what you don't want to pay in your homecountry. If you don't get it is just because you're not retired yet. They'll explain, don't you worry.

[Konceptz]

Thanks for the great responses. I suppose it is close to the politics, but I think it's more about economics. (always a fine line).

@benny: Interesting information, because here in the US, we're terrified of news like this as many of us found our dollars not going as far.

Really interesting perspectives!

[Rauha]

Thanks for the great responses. I suppose it is close to the politics, but I think it's more about economics. (always a fine line).


It's very political issue in europe.

[luflux]

I have heard that some people in Germany are rejecting Greek Euros (With Serial number starting with Y) and that key politicians want to force Greece out of teh Euro.

But then again I'm English and we love to gossip so I'm unsure if this is true!

[sajman]

bbc website is always good for a bit of info

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8660633.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8659912.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/overview/

[jnwi]

I also hear somewhat angry comments about Greece and the ongoing protests there, like "Were supposed to pay for them and they go on strike."

This about sums up my feelings too. First they vote for virtually communist welfare policies while cheating on taxes as much as they can, and then start protesting when they have to face the obvious consequences. All while the EU picks up the bill!

The "loan" is probably still worth it, though. But there had better be some very harsh terms.

And I'm wondering why nothing was done about this earlier. Surely the EU must have realized Greece was destabilizing the euro years before anything happened. Why didn't anyone act?

Us northern countries don't get away with breaking a single directive without it being a huge scandal. Any crap that comes our way is excused with "the EU says so, nothing we can do". We even have a "president" and "foreign minister" no one voted for!

Meanwhile the southern countries get away with murder. People are getting increasingly frustrated with the EU, and this kind of favoritism isn't helping.

[jnwi]

is the least you can do. After all, you central and northern european still come on summer to our coasts and enjoy our sun

Is this some kind of a joke?

[bbin]

Sad very sad issue. Specially for regular greeks who have to pay the largest price for the stupidity of former government's and banks.

[bbin]

is the least you can do. After all, you central and northern european still come on summer to our coasts and enjoy our sun, but also our Public Health System, which pays what you don't want to pay in your homecountry. If you don't get it is just because you're not retired yet. They'll explain, don't you worry.

Say WHAT?? You must be joking with this comment... You really think this all subsidizes? :D

[jnwi]

Sad very sad issue. Specially for regular greeks who have to pay the largest price for the stupidity of former government's and banks.

Oh it's easy to blame the banks and capitalists, but the truth is that the voting public was perfectly happy with the corruption as long as it benefited them. This is nothing like Iceland and its insane risk-taking bankers. I have little sympathy.

[bbin]

Oh it's easy to blame the banks and capitalists, but the truth is that the voting public was perfectly happy with the corruption as long as it benefited them. This is nothing like Iceland and its insane risk-taking bankers. I have little sympathy.

You think it is just okay to give a loan to a totally bankrupt government without good guarantee's? Spare me. This is what happens when loan and markets aren't controlled.

Privatizing profits and socializing losses... The public has to pay also, but fairnes would be a nice gesture for once in these things.

[saveas]

I have little sympathy.

No one asked for any kind of sympathy. Greeks are going to pay for the sins of the past, even those who are not to blame for the situation. But this is a chance for all European people (and for all the western economies) to think that something is wrong with the system. It just leads to an unequal distribution of wealth, which will in turn lead to collapse of all the fragile economies out there. No European country lacks of deficit, it is just a matter of time for the next crisis to come up.

[solidvox]

We are planning to spend our honeymoon in Greece so I hope these strikes will be over soon.
The question is, which kind of EU do we want to have? If we think of it as a community of states working together I think it's our duty to help out. But of course there have to be rules equal to each and everyone, and a system of corruption and people not paying taxes doesn't fit in.
Not much talk about that here in Sweden anyway.

[Rauha]

But this is a chance for all European people (and for all the western economies) to think that something is wrong with the system. It just leads to an unequal distribution of wealth, which will in turn lead to collapse of all the fragile economies out there.
I'm all for critisising the state of global capitalism, but the Greece crisis is more about a totally corrupt political system than global economics. The greek economy might be fragile, but most of Greece's current problems stem from decisions made by greek politicians, not bankers.

[wdugarry]

I'm all for critisising the state of global capitalism, but the Greece crisis is more about a totally corrupt political system than global economics. The greek economy might be fragile, but most of Greece's current problems stem from decisions made by greek politicians, not bankers.

Indeed.The problem is the corrupt political system but also the mentality of Greek people.Massive lying when filing taxes and always trying to find ways to avoid paying the state.Obviously this doesn't apply to everybody, but a huge number of people were and still are acting like that.

[tissot]

We are planning to spend our honeymoon in Greece so I hope these strikes will be over soon.
The question is, which kind of EU do we want to have? If we think of it as a community of states working together I think it's our duty to help out. But of course there have to be rules equal to each and everyone, and a system of corruption and people not paying taxes doesn't fit in.
Not much talk about that here in Sweden anyway.

The thing that irritates me the most about this whole matter is that Greece should have not even gotten the whole euro in the first place.

[Rauha]

To anybody accusing bankers on making risky loans to Greece:

1. Greece is a member of the European Monetary Union (euro)
2. Greece had good credit ratings.

1+2 meant that greek goverment bonds were guaranteed by ECB's (European Central Bank) repo window. This made Greek goverment bonds look like extremly safe investments.

1 and 2 were possible only because greek goverment kept forgering and engineering information about Greece's financial data.

[Astute]

is the least you can do. After all, you central and northern european still come on summer to our coasts and enjoy our sun, but also our Public Health System, which pays what you don't want to pay in your homecountry. If you don't get it is just because you're not retired yet. They'll explain, don't you worry.



Yup.....thats certainly some kind've joke ;)

[Konceptz]

It seems that more important than any implied Greek mentality, is the fact that the Euro is, and does rest on Greece as one of it's contributors (for better or worse).

Is helping Greece, helping the rest of the Euro bearing nations?

How would a scenario where Greece withdrew (somehow), from the Euro play out?

How about a scenario where Greece received a bailout and continued alleged improper behavior?

More importantly, when should I invest in the Euro after it hits a low price! :D

[DeargDoom]

Us northern countries don't get away with breaking a single directive without it being a huge scandal. Any crap that comes our way is excused with "the EU says so, nothing we can do". We even have a "president" and "foreign minister" no one voted for!

Meanwhile the southern countries get away with murder. People are getting increasingly frustrated with the EU, and this kind of favoritism isn't helping.

This is certainly the perception in some parts of northern Europe but its not true. Most countries break directives habitually when it suits them. In terms of scale I imagine the poorer countries are the worst offenders but this is more to do with opportunity rather than character.

I can only speak about countries I know well but of all northern and central European countries I have lived in in (France, England and Ireland) the corruption is clear to see, even if it has occasionally been legalised and partly legitimised.

I would imagine the nature and visibility of this changes according to culture but I have never seen a country that was not run for the benefit of a small ruling class. I cannot imagine Germany is different to Greece in this respect.

[orcocan]

i'm appalled that they have the cheek of going on strike

look at the irish and learn

[Rauha]

look at the irish and learn

This.

Greece invented democracy. That was great, but the thing has evolved a bit during the past 2000 years. Get on with the program.

[sophocha]

Well, if you are living on 700 Euros for the rest of your life without the prosper of a raise in the near future, that`s what makes an individual not go to work everyday....he/she becomes passive.....that`s what happened to the Greek people; total ignorance for the future.....that, and the tax evasion doctors and laywers, a poor job managment combined with the economic crisis that Mr Bush created....1+1=2

[DeargDoom]

look at the irish and learn

Im curious. What exactly should they learn from the Irish?

[tissot]

i'm appalled that they have the cheek of going on strike

look at the irish and learn

Estonia is very good example. While of course small nation they have done remarkable job at not increasing their depth at all in these hard times.
They have done some very hard cuts, but i believe they got bright future ahead.

[orcocan]

Im curious. What exactly should they learn from the Irish?

public sector got pay cuts of 10%, barristers opted for voluntary paycuts, were imposed the heaviest emergency budget for 30 years, they moaned of course they moaned but i didnt see anyone going on strike...

[Dave999]

just call berlin. They have some serious money.

The problem is that not only EUR countries have to pay. But not as much as the greek themself.

seeking loan for $55 billion...how do you do that?

[DeargDoom]

public sector got pay cuts of 10%, barristers opted for voluntary paycuts, were imposed the heaviest emergency budget for 30 years, they moaned of course they moaned but i didnt see anyone going on strike...

Actually there were strikes. And as far as I know the public sector paycuts are more than 10%.

On the other hand the small minority who got very rich during the boom have gotten their enourmous debts effectively paid off by the state at a much higher cost than the savings made by reducing the salaries of those who did little to cause the bust. This will ultimately be paid off by Europe too I would imagine.

I would not recommend following Irelands example. I am glad I no longer pay taxes there.

[mmurfin87]

No free bailouts EVER. If you can't pay your bills and nobody will loan you money YOUR BUSINESS FAILS. End of story.

[kevloral]

not just Greece,

Spain, Portugal and Ireland are on the brink of going the same way

Greece could loose their credit rating and cant borrow money leaving them in deep poop.

Im kinda happy England aren't part of the EURO

Oh, really?

2009 public debt:
Spain: 53.2 (% of GDP)
UK: 68.1 (% of GDP)

2009 budget balance:
Spain: -8.9 (% of GDP)
UK: -9.5 (% of GDP)

Read a little bit and learn:

UK budget deficit 'to surpass Greece's as worst in EU'

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/05/uk-budget-deficit-worse-than-greece

[debernardis]

We're in the same situation - we need honesty, competence, and innovation, both us and our polititians (which is the most difficult part). We also need solidarity, otherwise EU is bound to die.

[ossipena]

if I must be honest:

fcuk you Greece. I really pity Germany now.

I hope IMF screws you so badly you will cry for next 100 years.

Yes this is rough but hey, who has the right and duty to vote there?!?

[ossipena]

is the least you can do. After all, you central and northern european still come on summer to our coasts and enjoy our sun, but also our Public Health System, which pays what you don't want to pay in your homecountry. If you don't get it is just because you're not retired yet. They'll explain, don't you worry.
what about replacing the fckers that made your public health system so bad? it is not the abusers fault if abusing is practically permitted.

when people come to your coasts, they bring money. €€€, $$$$$

[Ken-Young]

Well, if you are living on 700 Euros for the rest of your life without the prosper of a raise in the near future, that`s what makes an individual not go to work everyday....he/she becomes passive.....that`s what happened to the Greek people; total ignorance for the future.....that, and the tax evasion doctors and laywers, a poor job managment combined with the economic crisis that Mr Bush created....1+1=2

Don't blame this on Bush alone. Both parties in the US are completely under the control of the financial "industry". People move back and forth between Goldman Sachs and the Federal government regardless of which party controls the White House. It goes back at least as far as Reagan.
Obama is not one iota better than Bush in this regard.

[ossipena]

Don't blame this on Bush alone. Both parties in the US are completely under the control of the financial "industry". People move back and forth between Goldman Sachs and the Federal government regardless of which party controls the White House. It goes back at least as far as Reagan.
Obama is not one iota better than Bush in this regard.

saying that Mr Bush created the crisis only tells a lot from the guy saying things like that... (mainly tells about lack of understanding anything except knowing who is in the highest position)

[Blaxe]

anybody of you ever checked where the greeks get ther damn warfare stuff from? nobody? make a guess!
germany and france! even the thought of blaming greek public for "spending the money" is ridiculous! but blaming public ist the political way for solving problems! turn off the light when leaving the room to stop global warming! facepalm

(I'm a german tax-payer btw)

[ossipena]

anybody of you ever checked where the greeks get ther damn warfare stuff from? nobody? make a guess!
germany and france! even the thought of blaming greek public for "spending the money" is ridiculous! but blaming public ist the political way for solving problems! turn off the light when leaving the room to stop global warming! facepalm

(I'm a german tax-payer btw)

did that make any sense?

is greece forced to buy warfare stuff? -no
would greece have bought warfare stuff elsewhere if
a) price and b) functionality is sufficient? -yes

who elects the politicians who decide about money spending etc?

[Blaxe]

did that make any sense? is greece forced to buy warfare stuff? -no

ever thought about cyprus? imho they don't need it, but greek politicians decide that, not me

would greece have bought warfare stuff elsewhere if
a) price and b) functionality is sufficient? -yes

no they wouldn't, cause germany and france do not only sell the stuff but also the money, so the greeks are bound to germany and france if they want to go on financing their depths.

who elects the politicians who decide about money spending etc?

it's such a pity that most of the people in germany use their right to elect to clean their *** instead of kicking the right asses

(writing posts on n900 is really great btw)

[ossipena]

no they wouldn't, cause germany and france do not only sell the stuff but also the money, so the greeks are bound to germany and france if they want to go on financing their depths.



it's such a pity that most of the people in germany use their right to elect to clean their *** instead of kicking the right asses

(writing posts on n900 is really great btw)

that is only greeces fault. they have messed their things up, no need to try rolling the blame to somewhere else.


whose *** should then be kicked? you are concidering greece as a baby child, aren't you?

[Blaxe]

that is only greeces fault. they have messed their things up, no need to try rolling the blame to somewhere else.


whose *** should then be kicked? you are concidering greece as a baby child, aren't you?

no i won't consider greece as a baby child. european politicians (especially germ. fra.) *** should be kicked cause we gave the greek politicians the chance to buy our "products" cheap without taxes (we let them get into eu while knowing that their statistics are messed up) and lend them a whole lot of money. we benefitet from that, industry profits pushed the national economy. and now we get what we deserve. and what do we do to solve the problem? right! another bailout....

[rcarlos]

Guys taken from BBC
"On Planet Greece, some civil servants get a bonus for turning up to work on time. Foresters get a bonus for working outdoors. At least they show up.

There are civil servants called ghost workers because they never go into the office, head to a second job and still claim a state salary. They can't get sacked, because a civil service post is for life. Unless the incumbent decides to retire in his or her forties, with a pension.

And the government can continue paying for the afterlife. Unmarried and divorced daughters of civil servants are entitled to collect their dead parents pensions. Another lucrative sinecure is to belong to a state committee. The government has no idea how many there are.

It has been estimated that they have 10,000 employees and cost nearly £200m a year, and that includes the committee to manage a lake that dried up 80 years ago."

[cashclientel]

This whole issue really underlies the fundamental flaws in the EU. Brussels are unhappy that the German government won't just play ball and cough up. Democracy [the majority of the German public] getting in the way again!

Why can't the French, Dutch, Belgians, etc cough up the money?

I really feel sorry for the Germans and the fact they are going to have to stomach this. Be clear as well that this is not a loan.

If the UK was in the Euro we'd be paying in as well. I'm pretty sure we are anyway really (through things like the CAP).

UKIP at the polls anyone?

[Blaxe]

hell yeah but they are going to spent 6,7 billion euro for weapons this year! and nobody stopped the greeks while spending all the money, for weapons, but also for public!

instead of that we are all very surprised and angry!?!

[ossipena]

no i won't consider greece as a baby child. european politicians (especially germ. fra.) *** should be kicked cause we gave the greek politicians the chance to buy our "products" cheap without taxes (we let them get into eu while knowing that their statistics are messed up) and lend them a whole lot of money. we benefitet from that, industry profits pushed the national economy. and now we get what we deserve. and what do we do to solve the problem? right! another bailout....

did they really know that statics are messed up?

as far as I know there were people from USA who played "creative accounting" -game with Greece closed doors...

[ossipena]

This whole issue really underlies the fundamental flaws in the EU. Brussels are unhappy that the German government won't just play ball and cough up. Democracy [the majority of the German public] getting in the way again!

Why can't the French, Dutch, Belgians, etc cough up the money?

I really feel sorry for the Germans and the fact they are going to have to stomach this. Be clear as well that this is not a loan.

If the UK was in the Euro we'd be paying in as well. I'm pretty sure we are anyway really (through things like the CAP).

UKIP at the polls anyone?

Germany has biggest surplus plus probably biggest risks with their banks & Greece.

[Blaxe]

This whole issue really underlies the fundamental flaws in the EU. Brussels are unhappy that the German government won't just play ball and cough up. Democracy [the majority of the German public] getting in the way again!

Why can't the French, Dutch, Belgians, etc cough up the money?

I really feel sorry for the Germans and the fact they are going to have to stomach this. Be clear as well that this is not a loan.

If the UK was in the Euro we'd be paying in as well. I'm pretty sure we are anyway really (through things like the CAP).

UKIP at the polls anyone?

save your sympathy, germany has to bear a lot, other countries have to, too. but we are no wizards, able to change **** into money and uk isnt an exception. just wait till after election

[ossipena]

hell yeah but they are going to spent 6,7 billion euro for weapons this year! and nobody stopped the greeks while spending all the money, for weapons, but also for public!

instead of that we are all very surprised and angry!?!

just forget the weapons. we in Finland have possibly a not working pension system (funds might run out). And here the retiring age is 60+ years, probably 70 when I am 60 years old...

..what were the figures in Greece again?

there is hella lot stupid holes in Greeces fiscal policy. weapons are a really easy target, but things are really messed up in general. selling all the guns and stopping army wouldn't change the situation significantly.

[Blaxe]

Germany has biggest surplus plus probably biggest risks with their banks & Greece.

just clear that up:

swiss: 76 billion
france: 56 billion
germany: 45 billion

(greek depth in euro)

[slender]

hell yeah but they are going to spent 6,7 billion euro for weapons this year! and nobody stopped the greeks while spending all the money, for weapons, but also for public!

instead of that we are all very surprised and angry!?!

I´m sorry but it´s Greeces business to do whatever they want to do with their money. If people chosen by democratic process decide to put all the money on military then be it. It´s not sellers problem to be interested on buyers economic status after they have managed to pay their bills.

[Blaxe]

osse we share the same destination, gonna be retired with 70 (earliest). and the greeks have to, too. but the incessant propaganda blaming the greek joe plumber is way too short and weapons is a german topic politicians dont wanna talk about, it's not a very useful argument in german elections...

[Blaxe]

I´m sorry but it´s Greeces business to do whatever they want to do with their money. If people chosen by democratic process decide to put all the money on military then be it. It´s not sellers problem to be interested on buyers economic status after they have managed to pay their bills.


its not the sellers problem? really? if the seller share the same currency and credits the sell with this currency it SHOULD be our problem! cause we want the money back....not the sellers problem...never laughed like that....the greeks don't don't pay theire bills since 2007 but we needed to sell MORE AND MORE AND MORE. and we gave them our money to buy our products

[slender]

its not the sellers problem? really? if the seller share the same currency and credits the sell with this currency it SHOULD be our problem! cause we want the money back....not the sellers problem...never laughed like that....the greeks don't don't pay theire bills since 2007 but we needed to sell MORE AND MORE AND MORE. and we gave them our money to buy our products

I said that if they manage to pay bill then there is nothing else that seller is interested. Why should? Companies are only interested on making money to their owners End of story.

.edit
Do you think that countires could be handled like people who do not anymore have control of themselves?

[Blaxe]

I said that if they manage to pay bill then there is nothing else that seller is interested. Why should? Companies are only interested on making money to their owners End of story.

and who is responsible for paying the bill? where did the money came from? herakles? zeus? or "deutsche bank"?!?

face it, its our problem.

i agree with you forasmuch its not the industrys problem because they got their euros....

[ossipena]

osse we share the same destination, gonna be retired with 70 (earliest). and the greeks have to, too. but the incessant propaganda blaming the greek joe plumber is way too short and weapons is a german topic politicians dont wanna talk about, it's not a very useful argument in german elections...

exactly. so guns mean nothing compared to impossible system that ensures people can retire as soon as they reach 50.

and I suggest that you would read a bit more about fiscal stuff. of course a country can buy a lot without paying. the seller just is certain that the bill will be paid at some point. a bit like asking your friend to buy you a lollipop that costs 10 euro cents and say you will pay it next week.

[slender]

and who is responsible for paying the bill? where did the money came from? herakles? zeus? or "deutsche bank"?!?

Situation right now is that banks do not care about big picture or macroeconomics. Just profit in couple of quarter year and run. If the situation is that lending money to country is low risk and it gives good profit to owners then money goes there.

[ossipena]

and who is responsible for paying the bill? where did the money came from? herakles? zeus? or "deutsche bank"?!?

face it, its our problem.

i agree with you forasmuch its not the industrys problem because they got their euros....

why are you lying to me? you told me second ago you dont concider greece as a baby....

[Blaxe]

sorry ossipenna, reading about more fiscal stuff? the system you just explained ist fine as long as you give me my 10 cents next week. but what do i do, if you tell me that you can't pay me? or anybody? wait! i just give you more money, to pay your dutys in my shop. not to be gracious but save my elected as an let the system go on....

[ossipena]

sorry ossipenna, reading about more fiscal stuff? the system you just explained ist fine as long as you give me my 10 cents next week. but what do i do, if you tell me that you can't pay me? or anybody? wait! i just give you more money, to pay your dutys in my shop. not to be gracious but save my elected as an let the system go on....

you're interpreting my words really wrong here.

please keep in mind that in 2008 no one knew that greece will have big problems in 2010.

think about that for a while and ask yourself are you starting to realize something?

[telnet]

Everything ticking along in the UK. Im good because i made 30k gbp on a USD/EUR fx spread bet over the last two weeks so if PR1.2 doesnt come out i shouldnt have any cash worries and ill go by an android phone :)

[Hynde]

I guess Greece have PR1.2 first in EU.

[Blaxe]

no one new in 2008 that greek will have problems....can't believe that. will you tell me, that all the things you blamed (retiring early etc) actually were there overnight (just like 1.2 will be) we wanted to be blinded to make our money and the greeks were stupid enough to play the game

[ossipena]

no one new in 2008 that greek will have problems....can't believe that. will you tell me, that all the things you blamed (retiring early etc) actually were there overnight (just like 1.2 will be) we wanted to be blinded to make our money and the greeks were stupid enough to play the game

now you are confusing a lot of stuff.

Greece was the initial party to play the game. It was the classical chair game and the one left standing pays the bill.

until recently there was no problem with retiring age etc because everything seemed to be in order(fraudulent accounting).

[Blaxe]

fradulent accounting always requieres two sides, one dumbass to lie and one dumbass to takes these lies....

[Rauha]

I really pity Germany now.


You should pity your own tax money even more. Finnish aid to Greece is little bit higher on per capita basis than german.

:o or :eek: or :mad: not really sure.


Not saying that we shouldn't bail out Greece. We should. Just pissed off about the corrupt greek system.

[ossipena]

fradulent accounting always requieres two sides, one dumbass to lie and one dumbass to takes these lies....

yes. Greece and investment banks from USA. now I am missing the link that makes Germany guilty.

and Rauha, I know. But Finland is already doomed by other aspects too so it doesn't feel so bad ;) and I am keeping my hopes up that Greece will repay completely so no-one looses money.

[overlord]

Greece was just the first one to get hit... Has anyone seen the current status in Spain and Portugal...? Not much of a difference there... And since I've read some really annoying comments here let me, as a Greek, speak out to clear some things...

1. Yes, since 1974 all Greek politicians' priority is to steal money...
2. Greece's banking system remains excellent no matter how hard it's been hit...
3. YES, Greece is in huge need of warfare equipment... You wouldn't never understand of course... But the minute Greece stops purchasing tanks, weapons, fighters etc etc there's a huge chance we'll get invaded... And there are three candidates to do so... We can cope at ease with two of them... But not that easily with the greatest of them... And that is not only Greece's problem... Have you ever wondered why none of you wants Turkey in the EU...?
4. Everyone goes on pension after 35 years of hard-working and mostly low-paid days...
5. We are 10million Greeks... 150.000 people does not constitute a majority... MOST Greeks have accepted ther fate even though they are not responsible for what has happened in Greece for the past years...
6. Over the past years a huge amount of illegal migration has been going on... We have over 1,5 million people coming from Albania, Pakistan etc etc... One of the major reasons why our economy has crippled...
7. And you my dear Germans... Who feel sorry for Greece but say it's not your fault... Does any single one of you know of the loan you charged Greece with when you conquered us 65 years ago...? Are you aware of the total gold bars that once rested in Greece and during 1944 they all 'migrated' to Germany...?
8. Have you seen what the hell is going on in the international market and you think that pushing Greece out of Euro will solve Europe's issues...? Euro as a capital is going to crumble if doing so!

PS: You "ossipena" who so easily said 'fcuk you Greece'... I feel really sorry for you...

[slender]

Let´s go offtopic.
But Finland is already doomed by other aspects too so it doesn't feel so bad ;)

Oh. Dear. Are you one of those Doom & Gloom apologists that daily troll in Murobbs and Ap-areena about how everything is going down :) Have you bought couple of tons of sugar already :D

If you compare Finland's statistics to other European countries you will see that our economy is on quite solid base. We can take loan for couple of years (actually it´s good thing to do) but after that we have to look that it slows down. Making this country profitable and interesting for mining, chemical, forest, technology industry etc. is key to success. One part of this is of course cheap electricity :)

Look this
http://yfrog.com/49velkap

We can easily go to 50-60% of our GDP and actually I think we should. Quite many statistic only show from year 2000 on but left most interesting part away and that´s the 90's when Finland went almost to bankrupt. Yes it´s wise to already think about how to start paying it and how to stop taking it, but there is too much dooming around. Yes we will need little "Jumalauta, vittu saatana" mentality but there is no reason to get too worried and throw hands in the air. ;)

.edit
http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suoluk_valtiontalous.html#velka

[sophocha]

Greece was just the first one to get hit... Has anyone seen the current status in Spain and Portugal...? Not much of a difference there... And since I've read some really annoying comments here let me, as a Greek, speak out to clear some things...

1. Yes, since 1974 all Greek politicians' priority is to steal money...
2. Greece's banking system remains excellent no matter how hard it's been hit...
3. YES, Greece is in huge need of warfare equipment... You wouldn't never understand of course... But the minute Greece stops purchasing tanks, weapons, fighters etc etc there's a huge chance we'll get invaded... And there are three candidates to do so... We can cope at ease with two of them... But not that easily with the greatest of them... And that is not only Greece's problem... Have you ever wondered why none of you wants Turkey in the EU...?
4. Everyone goes on pension after 35 years of hard-working and mostly low-paid days...
5. We are 10million Greeks... 150.000 people does not constitute a majority... MOST Greeks have accepted ther fate even though they are not responsible for what has happened in Greece for the past years...
6. Over the past years a huge amount of illegal migration has been going on... We have over 1,5 million people coming from Albania, Pakistan etc etc... One of the major reasons why our economy has crippled...
7. And you my dear Germans... Who feel sorry for Greece but say it's not your fault... Does any single one of you know of the loan you charged Greece with when you conquered us 65 years ago...? Are you aware of the total gold bars that once rested in Greece and during 1944 they all 'migrated' to Germany...?
8. Have you seen what the hell is going on in the international market and you think that pushing Greece out of Euro will solve Europe's issues...? Euro as a capital is going to crumble if doing so!

PS: You "ossipena" who so easily said 'fcuk you Greece'... I feel really sorry for you...

Yeah, I agree on most of the points BUT Greeks must also change couple of bad habits:

1) Don`t spent your salary on Bouzoukia ( for non-Greeks, google it)
2) Cut a lot of jobs that are not nesessary....one funny example was a driver at Olympic airlines that he was so fat that he was unable to drive, so instead of firing him they hired another driver to drive him around and he became the co-driver!ahaha
3) Don`t spend so much time at coffee shops....on average Greeks spent more time driking 'frappe' than working.

[overlord]

Yeah, I agree on most of the points BUT Greeks must also change couple of bad habits:

1) Don`t spent your salary on Bouzoukia ( for non-Greeks, google it)
2) Cut a lot of jobs that are not nesessary....one funny example was a driver at Olympic airlines that he was so fat that he was unable to drive, so instead of firing him they hired another driver to drive him around and he became the co-driver!ahaha
3) Don`t spend so much time at coffee shops....on average Greeks spent more time driking 'frappe' than working.

Haha! Yeah... Unfortunately we have a tendency for such things... And there are a lot more bad habits actually... But they are not the primary reason for Greece's state for the time being...

PS: I honestly reckon that this thread should be closed as it's turning to political...

[ossipena]

Greece was just the first one to get hit... Has anyone seen the current status in Spain and Portugal...? Not much of a difference there... And since I've read some really annoying comments here let me, as a Greek, speak out to clear some things...

1. Yes, since 1974 all Greek politicians' priority is to steal money...
2. Greece's banking system remains excellent no matter how hard it's been hit...
3. YES, Greece is in huge need of warfare equipment... You wouldn't never understand of course... But the minute Greece stops purchasing tanks, weapons, fighters etc etc there's a huge chance we'll get invaded... And there are three candidates to do so... We can cope at ease with two of them... But not that easily with the greatest of them... And that is not only Greece's problem... Have you ever wondered why none of you wants Turkey in the EU...?
4. Everyone goes on pension after 35 years of hard-working and mostly low-paid days...
5. We are 10million Greeks... 150.000 people does not constitute a majority... MOST Greeks have accepted ther fate even though they are not responsible for what has happened in Greece for the past years...
6. Over the past years a huge amount of illegal migration has been going on... We have over 1,5 million people coming from Albania, Pakistan etc etc... One of the major reasons why our economy has crippled...
7. And you my dear Germans... Who feel sorry for Greece but say it's not your fault... Does any single one of you know of the loan you charged Greece with when you conquered us 65 years ago...? Are you aware of the total gold bars that once rested in Greece and during 1944 they all 'migrated' to Germany...?
8. Have you seen what the hell is going on in the international market and you think that pushing Greece out of Euro will solve Europe's issues...? Euro as a capital is going to crumble if doing so!

PS: You "ossipena" who so easily said 'fcuk you Greece'... I feel really sorry for you...

4. that is no decision for anyone except global markets to make. you greeks tried to circumvent it, what has happened now? money comes from productivity, not 35 years of work...

6. excuses, excuses. what about Germany and ~10% of population?

7. Finland vs USSR. do I need to say more? (excuses, excuses)

8. may be. or may be not. useless speculation. euros problem now is that there are countries in that might go bankrupt.


ps, don't feel, no need to.



and slender: mainly because I have followed comments from our politicians concerning this greece -issue. if so stupid and naive people don't mess things up, it is a miracle ;)

[Blaxe]

yes. Greece and investment banks from USA. now I am missing the link that makes Germany guilty

to say it with the honorable words of seargent gunnery hartmann:
what the **** is that?

probably, due to my poor english-knowledge, a miss understanding. germany is guilty for borrowing money alrthough either knew or had to know that greek won't be able to pay it back. but we wanted to push the economy of politicians became the whore for getting the money started

[slender]

1. Yes, since 1974 all Greek politicians' priority is to steal money...
And people of Greece vote these stealers again and again?

2. Greece's banking system remains excellent no matter how hard it's been hit...
? Probably yes if you make your own statistics :)

3. YES, Greece is in huge need of warfare equipment... You wouldn't never understand of course... But the minute Greece stops purchasing tanks, weapons, fighters etc etc there's a huge chance we'll get invaded... And there are three candidates to do so... We can cope at ease with two of them... But not that easily with the greatest of them... And that is not only Greece's problem... Have you ever wondered why none of you wants Turkey in the EU...?
Have you been brainwashed? So basically you live under constant fear. Why? btw. In Finland we also have compulsory military service for all men (6,9 or 12 months). Tell us why for example cutting your military budget half would mean that e.g. Turkey or any other you neighbour country got brightest idea to attack Nato country and invade it? Do you have oil? Your economy is highly depended on maritime and shipping of stuff from/to EU. Besides that tourism is the another big money maker. You also think that EU countries that are not in nato would just look you get invaded?

Only thing what I have wondered is why some suggest Turkey to EU. That´s just crazy.

4. Everyone goes on pension after 35 years of hard-working and mostly low-paid days...
That´s just fck up thing. I hope that people in general realize that it´s not possible to do something like that on long-term.

5. We are 10million Greeks... 150.000 people does not constitute a majority... MOST Greeks have accepted ther fate even though they are not responsible for what has happened in Greece for the past years...
Yes. I know this and that´s why I understand that there is some quite angry people right now.

6. Over the past years a huge amount of illegal migration has been going on... We have over 1,5 million people coming from Albania, Pakistan etc etc... One of the major reasons why our economy has crippled...
No it´s not. Major reason is Greece's Goverments inability to make your country profitable. What I have learnt about Greece in couple of weeks is that your country is quite close to communism. You goverment owns sht load of industry and corporations and keeps them running even when they do not make any profit.

Throwing reason to illegal migration is bit too easy. It´s of course one problem but I doubt that it´s the major one.

7. And you my dear Germans... Who feel sorry for Greece but say it's not your fault... Does any single one of you know of the loan you charged Greece with when you conquered us 65 years ago...? Are you aware of the total gold bars that once rested in Greece and during 1944 they all 'migrated' to Germany...?
This one is interesting stuff. Any links on this. And how much of money we are talking here.

8. Have you seen what the hell is going on in the international market and you think that pushing Greece out of Euro will solve Europe's issues...? Euro as a capital is going to crumble if doing so!
No that will not happen. Only sad thing here is that Greece should not have been never ever got permission to join EMU. But situation is what it is and we have to live with it.

BTW. Quite many finnish people have prejudice (or some might say racist opinions) about people living in mediterranean countries and their way of living and I have to say that recent statistics and news do not dimish these allegations :D

[ossipena]

to say it with the honorable words of seargent gunnery hartmann:
what the **** is that?

probably, due to my poor english-knowledge, a miss understanding. germany is guilty for borrowing money alrthough either knew or had to know that greek won't be able to pay it back. but we wanted to push the economy of politicians became the whore for getting the money started

these claims need some sources or I call BS.

as I've said it is easy to say now that you shouldn't lended money to Greece after 2008. Could I have said the same in 2008? nope..

[Rugoz]

Greece was just the first one to get hit... Has anyone seen the current status in Spain and Portugal...? Not much of a difference there...

Actually there is a lot of difference. Just look at the debt as % of gdp figures and current deficit.
Also those countries are not as corrupt as Greece (which is only surpassed by Romania in the EU).
And if have more trust in their ability to implement cost cutting programs. Going on strike is not a solution.

Cheers

[overlord]

Dear Slender and everyone who commented on my post I promise to answer (with official numbers and not heavy speculations) by night... It's 3:30 here and I'm still working... Greece's economical comeback depends on me... :-P

[Blaxe]

these claims need some sources or I call BS.

as I've said it is easy to say now that you shouldn't lended money to Greece after 2008. Could I have said the same in 2008? nope..

some source (in german, please excuse and feel free to translate yourself):

www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/bestellt-aber-nicht-bezahlt/992634.html

the article is about difficulties greeks and germans had with different weapon deals (my favourite topic btw). greeks blame germans of selling crap and germans blame greeks of paying crap. truth lies beneath that, nevertheless the article summs up some problems of greeks gettings paid what they ordered.

the idea of greek getting invaded by turkey is....ahhhh you made a joke, didn't get it, sorry....took it serious at first

[2disbetter]

as someone paid in US dollars in germany, I kind of hope the Euro destabilises. Means more purchasing power for me. WEEEEE!!!

But in all seriousness. The real problem here is simple. But just like in the US, people don't want to face the music.

The US economy was hit hard by banks foreclosing and credit deficit. These things were bad ideas to begin with. They shoudl fail. But our approach is to give them more money.

That's like buying a crappy car, and instead of just buying a better reliable one, you continue to but more money into the proven unreliable piece of crap. How is that a solution?

So the question with Greece is, do they really need a loan?

YES!

BUT, not to fix thier old busted car, but to buy a new reliable one. Sounds easy right? :)

2d

[demos]

You can find my thoughts in my blog (http://teemulehtinen.posterous.com).

[slender]

@demos,
You mean:
http://teemulehtinen.posterous.com/

[tissot]

You can find my thoughts in my blog (http://posterous.teemulehtinen.com).

Heh not much love to Greece from IS readers i see.

[Rauha]

You can find my thoughts in my blog (http://teemulehtinen.posterous.com).

Thanks.
Interesting read, as were other recent post on your blog.

[demos]

@demos,
You mean:
http://teemulehtinen.posterous.com/

Yes, thanks for pointing out. I am currently stuck in tons of work, trying to write all kinds of materials and at the same time telling people from abroad that simplifications don't work.

Start from the military spending. Two months ago, as part of the safeguard package, Germans forced Greece to rebuy the leaking prototype sub that Greece already once returned as unseaworthy and French forced purchase of a new fregatte. All this at the same time as they are saying that Greece should be cutting cost.

The questions are much bigger than most of us imagine and answers more complex than what can be put in a short article.

[ossipena]

some source (in german, please excuse and feel free to translate yourself):

www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/bestellt-aber-nicht-bezahlt/992634.html

the article is about difficulties greeks and germans had with different weapon deals (my favourite topic btw). greeks blame germans of selling crap and germans blame greeks of paying crap. truth lies beneath that, nevertheless the article summs up some problems of greeks gettings paid what they ordered.

the idea of greek getting invaded by turkey is....ahhhh you made a joke, didn't get it, sorry....took it serious at first

I thought we got past the gun issue 10 posts ago as you didn't give any counter-argument to my suggestion that we can leave the guns out and the big picture doesn't change.

and I want to make sure: I refer Greeks as a nation, not every Greek personally. At least in finland we have over 75% idiots(read=don't have a clue and no intention to do research for getting a clue either) from every person entitled to vote....

[DeargDoom]

that is no decision for anyone except global markets to make. you greeks tried to circumvent it, what has happened now? money comes from productivity, not 35 years of work...


That is an admirably philosophical attitude youre are taking with other peoples pensions. Considering that German pensions will take an enormous hit if Greece and the other PIGS default, what reaction would you find most appropriate from Germans nearing retirement?

A shrug of the shoulders and a pang of regret that the market didnt judge them productive enough? Or anger at these feckless foreigners ruining pensions they had worked so hard to build up?

This chart neatly illustrates why Europe has no choice but to pay up, Europes Web of Debt (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html). Its mutually assured destruction.

Finally, I think its a bit weak to complain that in 2008 no-one knew that anything was amiss. There were many well publicised warnings about various PIGS economies (I am no expert on Greece but Ireland and Spain were well flagged as experiencing a bubble).

Surely this is not the forum for people to whine about not having done sufficient research.

[slartibartfass]

I'm Swiss and i'm glad we didn't join the EU and the Euro.

[Robb]

Can anyone quote some figures?
For example: debt as % of gdp figures and current deficit.

[overlord]

First things first... Before writing any further I MUST make an admission... Greece's economy lies in a very bad state for the past 15 years. Fundamentally it's our governments' faults since 1974 that led us to this point. We are NOT looking to find any excuses. Furthermore, European Union knew about our economic status all along, so you can blame your governments as well for accepting us in the Eurozone in the first place...

And people of Greece vote these stealers again and again?

Unfortunately yes. Our corrupt political parties steal from us in 8-year turns...

4. that is no decision for anyone except global markets to make. you greeks tried to circumvent it, what has happened now? money comes from productivity, not 35 years of work...

Who said we are not productive? Maybe not as much as Germany or the Nordic countries but still... Anyhow I would love to see you being productive with 45degrees Celcius during summertime... I hope you know what summertime means in Finland, do you...?

6. excuses, excuses. what about Germany and ~10% of population?

NOT the same situation at all. Germany has always had a very steady and strong economy. Whilst this is not the case for Greece. Throw 1,5 million immigrants in any economically weak nation and it will crumble. Not looking for excuses. It's just a fact.

No it´s not. Major reason is Greece's Goverments inability to make your country profitable. What I have learnt about Greece in couple of weeks is that your country is quite close to communism. You goverment owns sht load of industry and corporations and keeps them running even when they do not make any profit.
Throwing reason to illegal migration is bit too easy. It´s of course one problem but I doubt that it´s the major one.


a) You cannot simply understand what the situation is with all the illegal migration unless you see it with your own eyes. Again of course our government is to blame for not controlling their population in the first place. But as I have aforementioned, so many immigrants thrown in an economically weak nation is bound to speed up the process of going bankrupt.
b) Communism? No way! Greece's communist party takes about 6% at every election since they were legalised in 1974... Only half of them are true communists, the other half see it as a way to go against the norm. It's true that our government holds shares or even entire control over loads of corporations and organisations. But you should understand that up to 20 years ago they were profitable. And now the question arises... What has the Greek government done in the past 20 years to solve this issue...? And I'll answer myself... Nothing...

This one is interesting stuff. Any links on this. And how much of money we are talking here.7. Finland vs USSR. do I need to say more? (excuses, excuses)

(The following comment goes to ossipena's statement) Haha! I almost split my sides with laughter here...! Again NOT the same situation at all... And now let me elaborate on how many money does Germany owe to us primarily for reparations and what WWII meant to Greece's economy...

Firstly, Germany owes 275 Million Euros as reparations for World War I. Now, as of the Paris Peace Conference (1946) Germany was to pay reparations to Greece for different reasons, but all as a result from what took place during WWII... Here we go: a) 5 Billion Euros for all the damage caused during Greece's neutrality right before WWII, b) 51 Billion Euros as reparations for WWII, c) 14 Billion Euros for the Occupational Loan with which Germany charged the unable to react Bank of Greece in 1942... These sum up to a total 70 Billion Euros (today's values) without taking into account possible interest rates that Greece could apply. From these 70 Billion Euros Germany gave to Greece 115 million German Marks in 1960. Not included are restorations for victims as well as the destruction of great part of our archaeological and religious treasures! None knows for sure the exact amount of gold stolen but taking into account that Germany charged us with a huge loan, most of our gold must have been drained... When the German occupation was over Greece was left to misery. 900.000 victims, 35% forests destroyed, 90% of industries destroyed, almost total annihilation of communications - roads - railway - maritime. Greece now had a galloping inflation, about 15million times the one we had before the war! These are NOT excuses! These are facts. When we Greeks initiate conversations about who's to blame, we all blame our government and ourselves... We never say "damn you Germans and your reparations"...

Have you been brainwashed? So basically you live under constant fear. Why? btw. In Finland we also have compulsory military service for all men (6,9 or 12 months). Tell us why for example cutting your military budget half would mean that e.g. Turkey or any other you neighbour country got brightest idea to attack Nato country and invade it? Do you have oil? Your economy is highly depended on maritime and shipping of stuff from/to EU. Besides that tourism is the another big money maker. You also think that EU countries that are not in nato would just look you get invaded?

And now I've reached the hardest part of my analysis. One that I cannot complete without going political so I ask you to forgive me for doing so...

Unfortunately my dear friends none would understand unless he resides either in Greece or in Turkey... As most of you might know Greece and Turkey have not been in the best terms for the last well couple thousands of years... But how many of you who criticise truly know how many wars Greece and Turkey had for the past 150 years and how many more times we were on the very verge of going to war? None of you... Cause you have no interest in this matter. Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974... What did the Europeans do? They were staring... In 1996 we were once again on the very brink of war... Huge armies were massing at our borders... How many of you know that? None! And how could you possibly do...? I was there, my friends were there... But you were not... What did the European governments do? You know the answer... How many of you know that there are constant dogfights above Dodecanese (the easternmost islands of Greek-Aegean sea) EVERY single day? None! So spare me the lecture and the mocking please... This is not a result of being brainwashed. We LIVE this situation every passing day. But how could you possibly know such things...? Greece economy indeed resides on tourism, maritime and shipping because our INCAPABLE governments NEVER took advantage of our natural resources... And what are these natural resources you might ask... Oil at northern Aegean, Uranium (yes, you read correctly) at Northern Greece, and Gold allover Central and Northern Greece... Honestly now... What makes you think that Turkey wouldn't invade...? The European governments...? Come again... The United States...? Haha... They love the Turks... Why should they interfere... Greece might seem politically stable (for the moment at least) but in Turkey things are slightly different... Turkey's army would love to go on a coup d' etat... They commonly express their fears on how politicians behave... And then who is to guarantee that war is not an issue...

I can go further on and analyse anything I've written on my post but I know I have already bored you and some even curse... Thus I ought to apologise for my long post!

PS: Ossipena... I do feel sorry for you... And unfortunately I cannot help it... Insulting a nation the way you did WITH NO REASON AT ALL, MAKES me feel that way...

[Rauha]

Can anyone quote some figures?


For all euro countries (in german, staatsverschuldung=Goverment debt of gdp%, haushaltsdefizit=deficit)

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2010/5/6/saupload_eurozonedebt201005.png

[dimkit]

overlord very nice analysis , well done

[Robb]

From this analysis it looks like Italy is in a worse position. Right?

Whole of Europe is on minus!!

This does not look good ... if more countries start having problems ... maybe theres a new global war brewing??

[Dave999]

Italy must be one of most laid back countries in EU...that is both their strenght and weakness :)

[Rauha]

From this analysis it looks like Italy is in a worse position. Right?



No, it has lot of debt but deficit is relatively low. Italy also has huge economy. It will likely be the last of Club Med to fall, if the crisis spreads. (Greece-->Portugal-->Spain-->Italy).

Also there's no way to bail out Italy. It's simply too big.

[Dave999]

so whats happening in greece now? will food, cars and houses be cheeper or more expensive?

[overlord]

Well the truth is that although VAT is about to be increased for the second time in two months, the prices should get lower... Not much, but still... If the enterprises and companies are to live through this crisis they are to lower their prices...

[AlMehdi]

Well, i was working active against the Euro here in Sweden. The socialist left party here in Sweden predicted this outcome. I am pretty happy the people listened to us and voted no.

[robert65535]

Throw 1,5 million immigrants in any economically weak nation and it will crumble. Not looking for excuses. It's just a fact.


I'm not an expert in economics or finances, but I cannot understand how could immigrants or hot climate make some country (or person) to spend more money than it makes.

Country finance minister should know how much income country has (taxes collected and other income) and on long run should not spend more (pension, public sector, defense, etc.).

And with all immigrants Greece has still very high GDP per capita, so I guess its economy doesn't crumble.

My opinion about current Greece (or any other country) situation - it's all about cash flow. If country is spending more money than it makes, it can either increase income or lower spending.

And this is probably not Greece financial bailout but rather German, France, Swiss and other banks bailout. Greece dept to those banks will be simply replaced by dept to other EU countries.

[overlord]

Hot climate was just a joke... Although it really is extremely hard to work in mid-July...

And as far as the immigrants are concerned... Easy... Millions of Euros leaving the country...

The problem is not what the government should do right now... But that they've stolen in a course of 35 years more than our economy could handle...

[AlMehdi]

Immigrants normaly don't take money it gives money. It depends what you do with them. Sweden got more that 1,5 million immigrants and we are far from crumbeling. I think the Irak war gave us about 20 000 more imigrants within a year. (Sweden was the country in europe that took the most from Irak). Also the people in Sweden are getting older.. so we need a lot more immigrants than we have now.

Sure at the beginning it might cost little but later this immigrants start working and pay taxes. So if immigrants are your problem then you are doing something really really wrong.

I am not sure but Greece are or have been a tourist economy. Meaning a big income have been from tourist visiting the country. Now with the Euro things have become more expensive and less tourist are drawn to come. Thus more ppl in Greece are unemployed and the state lose tax income.

Edit: Ohh.. and try working when it is 30 degrees below zero outside ;)

[ossipena]

That is an admirably philosophical attitude youre are taking with other peoples pensions. Considering that German pensions will take an enormous hit if Greece and the other PIGS default, what reaction would you find most appropriate from Germans nearing retirement?

A shrug of the shoulders and a pang of regret that the market didnt judge them productive enough? Or anger at these feckless foreigners ruining pensions they had worked so hard to build up?

This chart neatly illustrates why Europe has no choice but to pay up, Europes Web of Debt (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html). Its mutually assured destruction.

Finally, I think its a bit weak to complain that in 2008 no-one knew that anything was amiss. There were many well publicised warnings about various PIGS economies (I am no expert on Greece but Ireland and Spain were well flagged as experiencing a bubble).

Surely this is not the forum for people to whine about not having done sufficient research.

I am sorry but I wasn't philosophical. I was only practical.

A bit like I can't buy porsche, lamborghini, ferrari and köeningsegg because I don't have money. Where the money to pension system then appears if not from overall productivity?!?

And you totally missed my point with 2008. Now all are referring that the current situation was known already in 2008. Warning signs are everywhere all the time. If you react to each, you probably die to stress in couple months...

[ossipena]

Who said we are not productive? Maybe not as much as Germany or the Nordic countries but still... Anyhow I would love to see you being productive with 45degrees Celcius during summertime... I hope you know what summertime means in Finland, do you...?



no one said that. I only said you can pay pension in ratio to productivity. You can do otherwise temporarily, but someone has to pay the bill.

Yes I know summertime (worked in block house smashing concrete in summer, temperature was somewhere between 30-40 degrees and visibility about half meters), dont you know what winter in Finland means? -30C and still some jobs must be done outside...

[ossipena]

Immigrants normaly don't take money it gives money. It depends what you do with them. Sweden got more that 1,5 million immigrants and we are far from crumbeling. I think the Irak war gave us about 20 000 more imigrants within a year. (Sweden was the country in europe that took the most from Irak). Also the people in Sweden are getting older.. so we need a lot more immigrants than we have now.

Sure at the beginning it might cost little but later this immigrants start working and pay taxes. So if immigrants are your problem then you are doing something really really wrong.

I am not sure but Greece are or have been a tourist economy. Meaning a big income have been from tourist visiting the country. Now with the Euro things have become more expensive and less tourist are drawn to come. Thus more ppl in Greece are unemployed and the state lose tax income.

Edit: Ohh.. and try working when it is 30 degrees below zero outside ;)
exactly. immigrants are only lousy excuse for the Greeks.

Yesterday in a local talk show a greek guy suggested they should shoot every immigrant. In civilised states no sane person would suggest anything like that.....

[ossipena]

(The following comment goes to ossipena's statement) Haha! I almost split my sides with laughter here...! Again NOT the same situation at all... And now let me elaborate on how many money does Germany owe to us primarily for reparations and what WWII meant to Greece's economy...

Firstly, Germany owes 275 Million Euros as reparations for World War I. Now, as of the Paris Peace Conference (1946) Germany was to pay reparations to Greece for different reasons, but all as a result from what took place during WWII... Here we go: a) 5 Billion Euros for all the damage caused during Greece's neutrality right before WWII, b) 51 Billion Euros as reparations for WWII, c) 14 Billion Euros for the Occupational Loan with which Germany charged the unable to react Bank of Greece in 1942... These sum up to a total 70 Billion Euros (today's values) without taking into account possible interest rates that Greece could apply. From these 70 Billion Euros Germany gave to Greece 115 million German Marks in 1960. Not included are restorations for victims as well as the destruction of great part of our archaeological and religious treasures! None knows for sure the exact amount of gold stolen but taking into account that Germany charged us with a huge loan, most of our gold must have been drained... When the German occupation was over Greece was left to misery. 900.000 victims, 35% forests destroyed, 90% of industries destroyed, almost total annihilation of communications - roads - railway - maritime. Greece now had a galloping inflation, about 15million times the one we had before the war! These are NOT excuses! These are facts. When we Greeks initiate conversations about who's to blame, we all blame our government and ourselves... We never say "damn you Germans and your reparations"...



yes, you just went to the corner to suck your thumbs.

what Finland did? paid the 300 million gold dollars (~$400M at 1944.. it would mean something like $4964M) to soviet union. Germans burned Lapland, all major cities bombed (obivously no help from soviet union...).

Greece was among winners so they got far more better deals with reparations. Finland was a looser.


And keep in mind that according to you Greeks are screwed because they didn't get all the ridiculous sums from Germany, Finns are doing ok and they paid $5B to soviet union....

e: $5B = about 4 billion €

[AlMehdi]

You do know that war is good for the economy? Sure the human sacrafice is enormous but so are the profit for the businesses. There will be a hugh build up that would make more profit than what ever was taken before. So the time that have been after the WWII should have made Greece richer not poorer. Not initially but after a while... So it is impossible blaming WWII for Greeces situation now.

The Olumpics surly made a big chunk in the states purse though..

[chemist]

No politics please.

(I would love to discuss with you!)