MeeGo-Harmattan HE [Archive] - maemo.org

qgil

05-25-2010, 03:36 AM

Hi, PR1.2 for Maemo 5 has been announced at http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/05/25/nokia-n900-software-update-release-1-2/

The announcement also contains this information:

Many of you have been asking whether the new MeeGo platform will be supported on the N900 once it’s device-ready. Although Nokia N900 devices are being used for platform development and testing purposes by those involved in the MeeGo project, we don’t have plans for a full scale commercial MeeGo upgrade on the Nokia N900. The reason? It’s really about ensuring that you have the best possible experience designed for the features on your Nokia N900 device.

In other words, the MeeGo-Harmattan release from Nokia will not be officially supported in the N900. But if you have an engineering mindset and you are interested in exploring what can be technically achieved by the community, please be active in this thread.

Carsten, the maemo.org distmaster, is in the best position to coordinate this effort. He has all the Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer) experience and he is working in the open project (http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900) to provide an N900 hardware adaptation for the MeeGo OS. He is also used to collaborate with members of the MeeGo Devices team at Nokia like Tero Kojo or myself, who will pay attention to the progress of this effort.

One of the main factors to be considered in this initiative is the key role of Qt, a key layer in the MeeGo architecture and a very useful bridge across platforms and releases. Qt 4.6 is now officially supported in Maemo 5 and Qt 4.7 is already in extras-devel. This is a very good indicator of the possibilities Qt based apps have beyond Maemo 5, into MeeGo and also the upcoming Symbian releases.

BIG DISCLAIMER

Please don't bug the people working here with questions/complaints about Maemo 5, open/closed software, official updates or MeeGo. There are plenty of threads for this just a click away.

The project discussed here is about getting the API, UX and apps of the first MeeGo device from Nokia (aka "MeeGo-Harmattan", provisional name) running in the N900. For insiders, this basically means making Harmattan run in the N900. The Harmattan content is not public yet and nobody really knows how good the releases of this initiative will be. Follow the MeeGo hardware adaptation for N900 (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53571) thread to have an idea of the worst case scenario to be expected.

How can you help? Please be constructive. Be ready to test and provide feedback. And be patient: this project can't dliver faster than the MeeGo & Harmattan projects themselves.

Thank you!

EDIT: Subject changed as requested.

dieg

05-25-2010, 05:06 AM

Let's do this. Count me in. I'll be glad to help supporting MeeGo in the N900 :^)

S0urcerr0r

05-25-2010, 05:11 AM

Thanks for a good post :)

Ok. That sounds great as long as we will still get the same newer driver revisions to the N900 as the Meego products with the same SoC will get, and equal OS speed. It will not be ok if Meego gets a 30+fps GUI with flawless vsync, if the same optimizations wont be done to Maemo.

but of course it will be great if the community manages to port Meego (with full driver support) to the N900 :)

btw. an important, and even trivial question - should we be able to expect support for new Qt versions to maemo as long as new Qt versions gets support for Meego?

Stskeeps

05-25-2010, 05:25 AM

Ok. That sounds great as long as we will still get the same newer driver revisions to the N900 as the Meego products with the same SoC will get, and equal OS speed. It will not be ok if Meego gets a 30+fps GUI with flawless vsync, if the same optimizations wont be done to Maemo.

but of course it will be great if the community manages to port Meego (with full driver support) to the N900 :)

We already have updated driver revisions in MeeGo 1.0 for N900 at least. Would be silly to ship old drivers :) Also, keep in mind, for the hardware adaptation, it is a professional team working on this. What would be provided in here, is basically the differentiation (on top of a UX on top of a hardware adaptation on top of MeeGo Core)

harrihakulinen

05-25-2010, 06:40 AM

Hello,

Just in order to be consistent: This kind of work that Quim proposes will be needed to create "full", open and nicely usable system on N900 on top of MeeGo.

Br,
//Harri

jsa

05-25-2010, 07:06 AM

What would be provided in here, is basically the differentiation (on top of a UX on top of a hardware adaptation on top of MeeGo Core)

Trying to wrap my head around this. What I imagined was that the handheld UX to be released soon after 1.0 would be the reference UX, am I completely off with this? However, by differentiation here you mean the Nokia differentiation on top?

Are we talking about two different projects here, the first under the Linux Foundation MeeGo project(N900 HW adaptation and stuff) and another under Nokia umbrella(differentiation) or am I mixing something up?

qgil

05-25-2010, 07:28 AM

Sorry, I thought my first post was clear.

In short, this thread is about creating a Hacker/Community edition for the N900 of the OS and apps that Nokia will ship in the first device based on MeeGo.

jsa

05-25-2010, 07:46 AM

Ok, makes more sense now. Thanks to Stskeeps too, didn't manage in time ;)

daperl

05-25-2010, 07:57 AM

Does anyone see WRT playing a role here? Or is the current thinking that a MeeGo hacker edition for the n900 would not use WRT as a main component?

Hynkel

05-25-2010, 08:02 AM

Sorry, I thought my first post was clear.

In short, this thread is about creating a Hacker/Community edition for the N900 of the OS and apps that Nokia will ship in the first device based on MeeGo.

So things like phone, messaging, media player, the nokia versions, will be open source? Are there any plans to open source the maemo versions of these apps once Meego is released?

Venemo

05-25-2010, 08:06 AM

Sorry, I thought my first post was clear.

In short, this thread is about creating a Hacker/Community edition for the N900 of the OS and apps that Nokia will ship in the first device based on MeeGo.

Just a side note:

There were plans about making Maemo 5 available for the N8x0.
They said that Maemo 5 needs graphics acceleration, and the N8x0 don't have that.

Okay, so the task would have been to "dumb down" Maemo 5 to make it work without that.
Instead, the community created all sorts of weird things (like Mer, the purpose of which I still don't understand), and none of it actually became usable or stable on an N8x0.

Will it be any different this time?

twigleaf1976

05-25-2010, 08:11 AM

NokTokDaddy

05-25-2010, 08:14 AM

...this thread is about creating a Hacker/Community edition for the N900 of the OS and apps that Nokia will ship in the first device based on MeeGo.

This is the most encouraging news I've had all day and I'm still playing with PR1.2...

I have just posted elsewhere that Nokia should turn Maemo 5 over to the community now; It's entirely understandable that Nokia don't want to develop a one-model OS any further. This proposal offers even more potential and will extend the effective life of the N900.

mobiledivide

05-25-2010, 08:20 AM

Am I the only one that sees that comment as Nokia withdrawing official support to the N900. If Meego ain't coming to the N900 and Maemo is being stopped. Not much of a future without the community. Without Nokia supporting it, they won't continue to sell it or make it and the community shrinks.

Not that I am surprised, I have said as much elsewhere that 1.2 would be pretty much it for the N900. Not shocked but still appalled.

No what I see is a business decision been made and Quim saying there will be cooperation from Nokia in probably getting a feature complete Meego release for the N900 as long as the community spearheads the effort.

edit: also known as this is GREAT news!!

russo_br

05-25-2010, 08:41 AM

Hi, PR1.2 for Maemo 5 has been announced at http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/05/25/nokia-n900-software-update-release-1-2/

The announcement also contains this information:

In other words, the MeeGo based release from Nokia will not be officially supported in the N900. But if you have an engineering mindset and you are interested in exploring what can be technically achieved by the community, please be active in this thread.

Carsten, the maemo.org distmaster, is in the best position to coordinate this effort. He has all the Mer (http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer) experience and he is working in the open project (http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900) to provide an N900 hardware adaptation for the MeeGo OS. He is also used to collaborate with members of the MeeGo Devices team at Nokia like Tero Kojo or myself, who will pay attention to the progress of this effort.

One of the main factors to be considered in this initiative is the key role of Qt, a key layer in the MeeGo architecture and a very useful bridge across platforms and releases. Qt 4.6 is now officially supported in Maemo 5 and Qt 4.7 is already in extras-devel. This is a very good indicator of the possibilities Qt based apps have beyond Maemo 5, into MeeGo and also the upcoming Symbian releases.

[b]The important factor Nokia is not considering is its customers... just this little detail.... just a bunch of crap the excuse of not supporting it... Maemo 5 was killed in just about 6 months, faster than Windows Vista!! Just lame... be sure you lost a lot of customers with that move!!![/b}

javicq

05-25-2010, 08:46 AM

Sorry, I thought my first post was clear.

In short, this thread is about creating a Hacker/Community edition for the N900 of the OS and apps that Nokia will ship in the first device based on MeeGo.

I must confess my head is spinning now with all this MeeGo stuff...

Correct me if I'm wrong, the meego we're talking here is actually Harmattan, which is just a rebranded maemo 6 and has little to do with the full blown meego from meego project discussed here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53571).
So, theoretically at some point we will be able to run on our N900 either:

-Good old Maemo 5.

-Meego 1.0, with the N900 hw adaptation done by the meego project + reference handset UX + reference handset apps.

-Harmattan, with all adaptation effort done by the community + official Nokia apps.

Am I getting this right or there's something I missed?

Optln

05-25-2010, 08:53 AM

So things like phone, messaging, media player, the nokia versions, will be open source? Are there any plans to open source the maemo versions of these apps once Meego is released?

Everything in MeeGo will be open source unlike Maemo. Only things that are closed source are some drivers(like GPU) and Nokia applications(like Ovi Maps). At least this is what I get from comments of developers :)

slender

05-25-2010, 08:57 AM

The important factor Nokia is not considering is its customers... just this little detail.... just a bunch of crap the excuse of not supporting it... Maemo 5 was killed in just about 6 months, faster than Windows Vista!! Just lame... be sure you lost a lot of customers with that move!!!
Could you please tune me on same frequenzy as you are?

First of all Vista was released in 2006 and is still getting support. Mainstream support probably ends soon (or has it) but security updates keep coming for quite long so what the H are you blabbering? Secondly they have not killed Maemo 5. As one of Nokia employees said n900 will get official 1.3 update also: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=561617&postcount=4

Meego will be provided as community version where stskeeps probably has his own hands deep. Qt will provide that probably most of programs coded on that platform will be usable on meego devices as on N8 and N900.

qgil

05-25-2010, 09:18 AM

So things like phone, messaging, media player, the nokia versions, will be open source? Are there any plans to open source the maemo versions of these apps once Meego is released?

The work here is not about opening software but about integrating open and closed components in order to provide a user experience and feature set as close as possible to the one offered by Nokia in its first MeeGo based device.

qgil

05-25-2010, 09:24 AM

Does anyone see WRT playing a role here? Or is the current thinking that a MeeGo hacker edition for the n900 would not use WRT as a main component?

Of course, Web Runtime should have here the same role as in the original release from Nokia.

HellFlyer

05-25-2010, 10:13 AM

So does this includes adaptations specifically for N900's resistive screen as well?

fatalsaint

05-25-2010, 10:30 AM

mobiledivide

05-25-2010, 11:14 AM

jacktanner

05-25-2010, 11:23 AM

The most frustrating aspect of this whole "N900 will be a reference MeeGo platform with community support but no official MeeGo release" business is that we have to pry bits and pieces of information, one at a time, out of qgil and Peter.

@Nokia: please make one detailed statement saying
a) What N900 owners can hope for from being the MeeGo reference platform
b) What MeeGo commercial support will include that will not trickle down to the N900
c) What items in (b) can practically have substitutes developed by the community.
d) What items in (c) are unlikely to have substitutes developed by the community, and why (e.g., because the source will be closed, or because they will take advantage of hardware unavailable on the N900, or for whatever other reason).
e) How and how long Nokia intends to support the N900 community from this point forward.

Until there is such a statement, this board will be drowning in noise, mass hysteria and FUD.

slender

05-25-2010, 11:32 AM

@jactanner
http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53571

cfh11

05-25-2010, 11:38 AM

While the thread about "No official Meego Release" gets a thousand views and a ton of comments, this thread about a Meego/Harmattan?maemo 6 hacker edition which answers all the questions gets no looks even after Qgil links it. Sometimes I shake my head at this forum, I really wish for the days when these tablets were for enthusiasts and not end users.

Unfortunately this is not an isolated incident. FUD runs high around here. I wouldn't be surprised if someone hacks Flash 10.1 onto the n900 and 90% of the forum misses it because they are too busy complaining about the lack of an official port.

jacktanner

05-25-2010, 11:42 AM

The page http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect needs a really thorough update now that PR 1.2 is out, and the Ovi store is about to get a refresh. A lot of the information / discussion is out of date.

The thread http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53571 is really excellent, I hadn't seen it yet. However, that just makes my point - no coordinated messaging that addresses all of the questions I (and others) pointed out.

quipper8

05-25-2010, 11:44 AM

The work here is not about opening software but about integrating open and closed components in order to provide a user experience and feature set as close as possible to the one offered by Nokia in its first MeeGo based device.

in other words, we will beg nokia for binary blobs from meego and those crumbs that do fall from the table will end up being incompatible with our n900s.

Hackers and crackers will spend thousands of man hours for free trying to make this work on an n900, when in the end they could've worked at mcDonalds for 1/10th that time and bought the latest device.

I am selling both of my n900s to some of these folks for cheap so they can build a brick wall and I can move on to a newer device at a discount.

I am learning how it works around here, albeit, slowly.

gerbick

05-25-2010, 01:40 PM

If Mer were a success, I'd not complain. If OS2008HE was a success on the 770 - you had parts of it that didn't work on the 770 (sound, Flash player) - then I'd not complain.

The fact that Maemo5 will be dropped, and all updates will soon (probably) cease - six months, PR1.01, PR1.1, PR1.1.1 and now PR1.2 - is somewhat disappointing.

This is like Diablo all over again: 23-14, 30-2, 36-5, then 43-7... then silence. And the hacker editions of 2007 and 2008 on the 770 were downright slow.

Mer... never made it out of the gate. Mer^2, the state of that is... "it's coming". MeeGo for N900... same fate more than likely. Won't support the important bits, will be for enthusiasts that don't mind the closed bits not working and no way to get the modern bits of the OS.

Yet another "start, stop, restart" from Nokia on this one. I do hope that the future "hacker editions" are usable whereas the other ones were truly not.

ffarber

05-25-2010, 01:54 PM

While the thread about "No official Meego Release" gets a thousand views and a ton of comments, this thread about a Meego/Harmattan?maemo 6 hacker edition which answers all the questions gets no looks even after Qgil links it. Sometimes I shake my head at this forum, I really wish for the days when these tablets were for enthusiasts and not end users.

End user here, I read this whole thread and ignored the others. Just to let you know there are exceptions to every rule. As an end user, I am waiting and seeing because I am not sure what it all really means. I am basically happy with the N900 and am loathe to support the more closed eco-systems out there (I also support cummunity based farming:)).

Fred

quipper8

05-25-2010, 01:57 PM

thefoxtrot

05-25-2010, 02:00 PM

[Delete my post please]

geohsia

05-25-2010, 02:04 PM

I think we need to be clear about what is being provided in the Meego Community edition for the N900.

So far from the various threads all we have is that Meego will run on the N900 through the community. Great, Linux boots.

As far as we are concerned NO thread thus far as of today has made any commitment to Meego UX components which means you can't make phone calls, browse the web, anything, no UI, nada.

What we do know will work on this Meego OS is likely QT, which means you can manually load QT based apps, but as of now NO commitment to any of the things we actually use.

Now, could that change? Of course. Could Nokia and 3rd party developers release community versions of the browser (with Flash), Skype and OVI maps? Sure. But what is being talked about right now in terms of MeeGo on the N900 does NOT include the Meego UX (I'm guessing user experience) so for most people this will be completely useless.

I don't want to be a naysayer but I want people to have the proper expectation. I think like me when many people heard MeeGo on N900 supported by the community they thought it meant an unsupported but FUNCTIONAL (besides QT) version of MeeGo. I don't think that is what is being committed to at this point.

I hope I am wrong.

Stskeeps

05-25-2010, 02:08 PM

I have been reading some of the meego meeting irc logs that are online, although it still appears most discussion is still closed and takes place internally on #meego-arm, and it appears that although the meego team does have contacts inside Nokia to get some things, there is no telling how long that cooperation will last.

What? Anyone can join #meego-arm on freenode, there's like 43 people there and we're only 14 or so in the team :) It is even publically logged, if you go to the channel to get the URL in topic. We do have contacts inside Nokia, because, well, we have team members from Nokia doing their part and sometimes reaching out to the people with the right knowledge is needed. Check out http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Meetings

In one specific example, the battery management entity is attempting to be added to meego and is not behaving properly. Nokia provided BME does not provide any debug output whatsoever. A contact attempt will be made to nokia for at least a debug version if not source code. Maybe they got it, maybe not, we don't know.

Specifically it said we are going to make a debug version in the internal OBS. This is not the same as a 'contact attempt', it's one of the people with access to internal OBS making this change to a packaging flag.

This same dance is going to have to be carried out for every bit of closed driver-ness, which likely includes opengl, audio, BT, WLAN, and on and on.

The nokia cooperation is only going to last until the first meego
hardware prototypes are available that use different drivers and there will be noone to go to anymore for n900 driver stuff.

No, the dance is just actually doing what's needed to be done. Most team members have the right access to get the job done and know who to contact.

The meego team is just using the n900 for reference right now because that is all there is. it is not because of some kind of benevolence toward users or the n900 hardware. Once there is new hardware, I don't think we will see meego team trying to merge sh*t into meego kernel for n900 any longer, and even if they tried to, the intel people would likely shoot it down immediately. So, enjoy your n900 for the time being, but get ready to pony up for the next device.

I think you're being too paranoid and exaggerating things. Come spend a day with us in the IRC channel and watch our work. It is a new kind of work which you might not know too well - open development. If this was the old days, we wouldn't even be seeing an updated kernel on the N900. This is new times.

scifi.guy

05-25-2010, 02:26 PM

What? Anyone can join #meego-arm on freenode, there's like 43 people there and we're only 14 or so in the team :) It is even publically logged, if you go to the channel to get the URL in topic. We do have contacts inside Nokia, because, well, we have team members from Nokia doing their part and sometimes reaching out to the people with the right knowledge is needed. Check out http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Meetings

Not to scandalize or start a whole flame war but from the meeting logs and the "general" perception for me is that Intel is giving you (Nokia) a raw deal with this whole Meego thing. Like for example, not allowing your changes to be included upstream in the last minute (which is a good thing) while including their own changes without any issues. I don't even like to bring up the Deb vs RPM debate.

Now that Nokia does not "officially" support N900 Meego implementation, do you have enough pull with Intel to get things done?

Stskeeps

05-25-2010, 02:33 PM

Not to scandalize or start a whole flame war but from the meeting logs and the "general" perception for me is that Intel is giving you (Nokia) a raw deal with this whole Meego thing. Like for example, not allowing your changes to be included upstream in the last minute (which is a good thing) while including their own changes without any issues. I don't even like to bring up the Deb vs RPM debate.

Now that Nokia does not "officially" support N900 Meego implementation, do you have enough pull with Intel to get things done?

Any first collaboration is hard between different work cultures and processes and in stressful situations things are bound to be tense. Intel did not include their own changes without issues, read further in the log - theirs got declined as well. We were a bit late to the party as we switched kernel version and this harmed us a bit.

After all this, I would have no difficulty sitting down and having a drink with the release guys. They're just doing their jobs and trying to find solutions.

Also, it isn't about Nokia vs Intel, we all sit somewhere in the MeeGo project. Once the project structure is published, things are clearer, process is visible etc.

Deb vs RPM I'm not going to start - I wrote debs before and I love rpms now. Without brainwashing ;)

quipper8

05-25-2010, 02:42 PM

I don't think i am being paranoid, just realistic. The n900 is not a meego target for NOKIA, period. It is enjoying some love from some members of meego team right now because the first hardware for a meego device *might* share a good bit with what the n900 has, but I doubt if the meego team even knows that or not, and the n900 is a good testing device for now for Nokia and 3rd party meego UX stuff.

I am not trying to belittle meego team work at all, it is a gargantuan task that requires a lot of sustained focus, but that work's function is NOT too provide a meego for n900, or is it? I think it is primarily to help nokia get stuff they need into a meego kernel going forward for NEW devices.

I wish you all the luck, but I see the n900 hardware adaptation effort as a hobby subteam of the general meego direction at best and will find the same problems and fate as Mer

scifi.guy

05-25-2010, 02:43 PM

Thanks Stskeeps.

I know you guys are working hard for the May release. Hope it will be successful and you guys get some well deserved break. Best of luck.

I hope Meego (Nokia and Intel) follow your (Meego-ARM team's) lead in being and working in the open.

Sarcastic_Twit

05-25-2010, 02:48 PM

atilla

05-25-2010, 03:11 PM

hey folks.would we get flash ten with meego on our lovely n900?or is flash 10 definetly death for us and will never come?????

quipper8

05-25-2010, 03:14 PM

hey folks.would we get flash ten with meego on our lovely n900?or is flash 10 definetly death for us and will never come?????

hah, you are dreaming now. first you might want to ask for a gui and a browser :)

resplendent2209

05-25-2010, 03:17 PM

Lets wait for inputs from qgil on the Meego N900 UX, Apps etc.

qgil

05-25-2010, 03:35 PM

Please don't bug the people working here with questions/complaints about Maemo 5, open/closed software, official updates or MeeGo. There are plenty of threads for this just a click away.

The project discussed here is about getting the API, UX and apps of the first MeeGo device from Nokia running in the N900. For insiders, this basically means making Harmattan run in the N900. The Harmattan content is not public yet and nobody really knows how good the releases of this initiative will be. Follow the MeeGo hardware adaptation for N900 (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53571) thread to have an idea of the worst case scenario to be expected.

How can you help? Please be constructive. Be ready to test and provide feedback. And be patient: this project can't dliver faster than the MeeGo & Harmattan projects themselves.

Thank you!

quipper8

05-25-2010, 03:52 PM

Please don't bug the people working here with questions/complaints about Maemo 5, open/closed software, official updates or MeeGo. There are plenty of threads for this just a click away.

Isn't the open/closed debate quite valid for this thread? Especially if you are talking about a community distro trying to run a commercial UX and apps

Stskeeps

05-25-2010, 03:55 PM

The project discussed here is about getting the API, UX and apps of the first MeeGo device from Nokia running in the N900. For insiders, this basically means making Harmattan run in the N900. The Harmattan content is not public yet and nobody really knows how good the releases of this initiative will be. Follow the MeeGo hardware adaptation for N900 (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53571) thread to have an idea of the worst case scenario to be expected.

How can you help? Please be constructive. Be ready to test and provide feedback. And be patient: this project can't dliver faster than the MeeGo & Harmattan projects themselves.

Thank you!

I'd just like to jump in with some analysis, so people can put this in context.

As a start, I would like to remind everyone of what it says on http://www.slideshare.net/peterschneider/maemo-6-technology-highlights , slide 3. Things that stay the same in Maemo 5 and Maemo 6.

OMAP3, OpenGL ES, WVGA.

N900 has OMAP3.

OpenGL ES, in MeeGo for N900 hardware adaptation, we're already using the same SGX libraries and kernel drivers as Harmattan does. On a 2.6.33 kernel.

WVGA, well, N900 is WVGA so no issue there.

This is a very different situation than the case with Fremantle and N8x0 for several reasons.

If the same invitations stand as did with N8x0 - I don't expect anything has changed, we don't have to worry about licensing regarding binaries to make things work. If there's need to get access to things, I'm sure Nokia would be helpful.

With the Maemo on OMAP work for Maemo 5 (Beagle, Zoom2 port), we have scripts to make Maemo images/rootfs. I don't presume much has changed in Harmattan (release machinery is difficult to rewrite). With the community OBS in works, we have build machinery.

Fiasco-gen is released so we can produce firmware images. We have kexec, bootmenu and a kernel maintained in the MeeGo project.

So, that's immediate analysis.

It is difficult to say anything exact before Harmattan content is out - so keep that in mind. But let your (technical) imagination run wild about how difficult this would be.

Having a hardware adaptation project on the side we can collaborate with, helps a lot. A lot of shared components.

I think it's best to revisit this topic again when we have Harmattan content - it is always better to discuss something tangible and it is hard working blind.

EDIT: One thing that is important to remember. This is closer to a 'hardware adaptation' for N900 for Harmattan. It is similar to 'Maemo on beagle' except better access to components and more similar device hardware.

It isn't another 'Mer' either. That's MeeGo's job now - and we won't be seeing a MeeGo (rpm meego)-based Nokia OS release for a while yet we want to run on our N900. When that comes, it would be a matter of dropping it on top of the N900 hardware adaptation, MeeGo Core and UX.

Texrat

05-25-2010, 04:05 PM

I'd love to get involved. So far I've been unable to figure out where though. I keep an eye on the meego forums waiting for something to pop up that looks like I can do and someone else isn't already working on.

You and EVERYONE are always welcome at http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_User_Engagement_Framework_Project

I would LOVE the help!

quipper8

05-25-2010, 04:09 PM

ok, so i am starting to wrap my head around what is going on with meego and n900

You have the Nokia Meego Devices team which really has little to do with the n900 at all and is primarily working on the next nokia meego device(s)

then you have the meego n900 hardware adaptation team which is trying to make meego as it is restructured, etc, from maemo work on the n900

and then you have stskeeps here trying to lead a community effort to get the entire nokia meego software stack(aka Harmattan) running on the n900 through creative image building and bundling of the nokia harmattan stuff with the open meego n900 hardware adaptation

is that right?

Stskeeps

05-25-2010, 04:16 PM

ok, so i am starting to wrap my head around what is going on with meego and n900

You have the Nokia Meego Devices team which really has little to do with the n900 at all and is primarily working on the next nokia meego device(s)

Close, same group/team also handles Fremantle releases.

then you have the meego n900 hardware adaptation team which is trying to make meego as it is restructured, etc, from maemo work on the n900

Yes, we take the portable MeeGo system, add components, firmware, scripts and configurations to make it work. What's added is the hardware adaptation.

and then you have stskeeps here trying to lead a community effort to get the entire nokia meego software stack(aka Harmattan) running on the n900 through creative image building and bundling of the nokia harmattan stuff with the open meego n900 hardware adaptation

Harmattan's the continuation of Fremantle as such (at least it's Debian based last I heard). I guess best way to think of it is the MeeGo APIs running on top of a more evolved Fremantle system (by that, think operating system, not UI).

But yes, the idea is then having taking this, putting in the meego n900 hardware adaptation + some various patches and stuff and hopefully, having a working image.

It isn't far fetched, really.

Texrat

05-25-2010, 04:20 PM

You know, I would really love to see what's being discussed visually diagrammed. Some of this is just too confusing for those of us on the peripheral and lacking the constant exposure of people like Stskeeps... a single diagram could make things so much clearer than the hundreds of posts on the subject.

I'm a Visio whiz and would be more than happy to manage such a diagram, but if I took it on I would need a lot of help from the technical experts...

Harmattan's the continuation of Fremantle as such (at least it's Debian based last I heard). I guess best way to think of it is the MeeGo APIs running on top of a more evolved Fremantle system (by that, think operating system, not UI).

From my perspective this just gets more confusing by the minute. Maybe it's just my ignorance showing, but to me the whole "it's MeeGo, but uses deb instead of rpm" is a recipe for disaster. FWIW I don't even like calling a hybrid "MeeGo". Heck, call it "MaeMee" or something that sets it clearly apart from pure Maemo or pure MeeGo.

I realize some here are gonna give me grief for being so pedantic, but we're talking about branding here, where semantics have significant impact.

geohsia

05-25-2010, 05:00 PM

fatalsaint

05-25-2010, 05:09 PM

You and EVERYONE are always welcome at http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_User_Engagement_Framework_Project

I would LOVE the help!

Yes, and I've seen this. I even commented in your post about it that I like the idea.

Here's my problem: Looking at that there is nothing I can just grab and "do". It's all theory, great theory mind you - but with nothing tangible to actually work on right now.

RPM packaging? Qt? Usability? ... On what? An integrated reporting system - GREAT - integrated into what?

I mean.. currently we have a shells only barebones image released for MeeGo .. but not much else to "integrate" anything into.. there's just nothing there.

So yes - as soon as there is something I can actually grab and do .. I'll be more than happy to help any aspect of MeeGo that I can.. (skills are an expert in system administration/security, some QT development experience (by no means an expert, but I learn quick), and some RPM package management (again, I learn quickly)).

Making pretty pictures, and activating or engaging a community are not in my lists of stuff I do. I watch you do that.. and then I giggle because people suck :p.

(I think you do an amazing job at community projects Tex.)

My problem is: What I need is someone to point at me and go "You, Install MeeGo on (qemu, n900, whatever) - load software X, and see if you can fix bug Y".. And I'd be off.

Crawling through bugs.meego.org picking things out that I might be able to fix only to then realize it got fixed by an "internal" dev.. meh. I'll wait till there's a more stable base to work from. (Yes, I know, browsing bugs.meego is a perfectly legitimate way to help meego, I'm just somewhat on the lazy side right now and don't know the whose who of every corner of MeeGo).

Anyway: I do love your ideas in that Article Tex, but unfortunately I just don't see anything I can help with yet until things are a little more tangible.

Texrat

05-25-2010, 05:26 PM

Yes, and I've seen this. I even commented in your post about it that I like the idea.

Here's my problem: Looking at that there is nothing I can just grab and "do". It's all theory, great theory mind you - but with nothing tangible to actually work on right now.

I don't want to peel this too far off topic, so I'll just say that if nothing else anyone contributing to research is highly valuable! A project coordinator can't be everywhere or do everything! And I'd say that 90% of my work has been Googling: hunting up best practices, tracking down synergistic projects, reading whitepapers and extracting useful bits, etc.

And that applies on topic too, I'm sure. No doubt Stskeeps can identify! Although I suspect he knows all, anyway. :D

Anyway: I do love your ideas in that Article Tex, but unfortunately I just don't see anything I can help with yet until things are a little more tangible.

And as with every community project, I could suuure use help making things tangible! That's mainly what I'm asking for help with-- and anyone who can google/read/edit can help.

Back on topic... I already have a (mostly silent) place for this discussion...

smoku

05-25-2010, 05:27 PM

OpenGL ES, in MeeGo for N900 hardware adaptation, we're already using the same SGX libraries and kernel drivers as Harmattan does. On a 2.6.33 kernel.

Are these redistributable?

mrojas

05-25-2010, 05:41 PM

Will Nokia services work on this "hacker" edition of MeeGo? Ovi, Maps, Messaging, etc?

quipper8

05-25-2010, 05:47 PM

Will Nokia services work on this "hacker" edition of MeeGo? Ovi, Maps, Messaging, etc?

that is the big question.

the way i understand it is:

wait for nokia to release harmattan

attempt to bundle open meego base with nokia harmattan apps and see if it works.

wmarone

05-25-2010, 05:47 PM

Will Nokia services work on this "hacker" edition of MeeGo? Ovi, Maps, Messaging, etc?

I don't get why people keep asking about vendor-specific services with respect to MeeGo. If there is a community release of MeeGo that doesn't have the backing of Nokia, then Nokia services probably won't work with it.

If Nokia decides to cooperate, so be it, but like with Cyanogen and Google, if the license disallows it then only people who have the software already will be able to use it.

mrojas

05-25-2010, 05:56 PM

I don't get why people keep asking about vendor-specific services with respect to MeeGo.

Because vendor-specific services are what can make or break the experience on the device for end-users.

Services like OVI Maps, Comes with Music (hopefully), Pay-per-view TV (like the N8 is going to have), support in Ovi Suite for easier management of the device, Ovi store for games and software, Nokia Messaging, Mail for Exchange... etc etc...

wmarone

05-25-2010, 06:00 PM

Because vendor-specific services are what can make or break the experience on the device for end-users.
Then they'll get that support, but only on a device with a vendor-supported install.

Just so you know the difference:
Vendor supported
Community supported

Services like OVI Maps, Comes with Music (hopefully), Pay-per-view TV (like the N8 is going to have), support in Ovi Suite for easier management of the device, Ovi store for games and software, Nokia Messaging, Mail for Exchange... etc etc...

ALL of those are vendor supported. We could jack the code in Android for some Community supported MfE, but otherwise ALL of that is Nokia specific and has -nothing- to do with MeeGo proper.

If Nokia wants to make them open enough that the Community can support (or install) them then sure, but those are not parts of MeeGo. We'll know more once actual, vendor supported MeeGo devices arrive.

You may not like to hear it, but that's how it is.

scifi.guy

05-25-2010, 06:02 PM

I don't get why people keep asking about vendor-specific services with respect to MeeGo.

Unfortunately there are so many things being said/posted today and it is not as simple as black and white.

Here is a post from harry on other thread regarding Meego hardware adaptation for N900.

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=675533&postcount=4

From this post, I tend to believe that some closed-source components might be included in future Meego releases (for N900). While harry and everybody from Nokia/Meego team are trying to give useful information here, people are getting more and more confused with each post.

wmarone

05-25-2010, 06:09 PM

From this post, I tend to believe that some closed-source components might be included in future Meego releases (for N900). While harry and everybody from Nokia/Meego team are trying to give useful information here, people are getting more and more confused with each post.

In terms of "closed-source" components, he is referring -exclusively- to bits for hardware compatibility, specifically the dubiously-closed BME (the specs for the chip it controls are easily available) and the SGX drivers for graphics.

People are somehow building up MeeGo as having support for all of the Nokia services included, which is entirely not the case as MeeGo is not vendor-specific.

mrojas

05-25-2010, 06:18 PM

Then they'll get that support, but only on a device with a vendor-supported install.

Just so you know the difference:
Vendor supported
Community supported

ALL of those are vendor supported. We could jack the code in Android for some Community supported MfE, but otherwise ALL of that is Nokia specific and has -nothing- to do with MeeGo proper.

If Nokia wants to make them open enough that the Community can support (or install) them then sure, but those are not parts of MeeGo. We'll know more once actual, vendor supported MeeGo devices arrive.

You may not like to hear it, but that's how it is.

So, what would be the point of upgrading the N900 to MeeGo if it is going to do less of what the current Fremantle is doing? You upgrade to MeeGo, and no more (for example) Ovi Maps is not a good experience.

And what is Fremantle going to do in the future? Will more services come to it? Will current services be improved? Will Flash 10.1 come to it?

It is not about upgrading for the sake of upgrading. It is about what features are going to be available for the owners of the devices; and how they are going to get them. Through MeeGo? Through Fremantle? There are some things that we already know won't come in Fremantle (i.e. portrait mode). People don't know what is coming in PR 1.3, PR 1.4, etc. And they don't know that MeeGo will support (UI, browser and media player is not going to cut it).

More concrete information is needed. That is my point.

scifi.guy

05-25-2010, 06:26 PM

In terms of "closed-source" components, he is referring -exclusively- to bits for hardware compatibility, specifically the dubiously-closed BME (the specs for the chip it controls are easily available) and the SGX drivers for graphics.

Agreed, but in the same thread he also said this regarding Ovi apps.

It is not completely clear, what is the best way to integrate these kind of 3rd party closed applications. MeeGo project itself is supposed to work only on open source, and we are trying to emphasize that at least now.

Community can of course decide that it make's sense to offer a way or another to integrate these, or to provide nice and smart application installer also for closed apps or something.

However, I expect that all of the companies behind of the mentioned closed sw applications are also interested to help in the integration process ..

Br,
//Harri
Link:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=676396&postcount=20

From this it looks like a decision on these 3rd party services is still pending. This is enough to get people excited/depressed about the possibility of 3rd party apps in future Meego releases for N900.

And as per Quim, the right place to ask the question is this thread :)

wmarone

05-25-2010, 06:31 PM

So, what would be the point of upgrading the N900 to MeeGo if it is going to do less of what the current Fremantle is doing? You upgrade to MeeGo, and no more (for example) Ovi Maps is not a good experience.
Funny, everyone complains constantly about Ovi Maps that I thought no one used it. But then you're doing the equivalent of installing a Cyanogen ROM on a phone with SenseUI or the Google Apps. Installing the ROM doesn't -have- to deprive you of Google Market or Google Earth, but Google isn't going to help you preserve your access to those (or let you distribute them.)

And what is Fremantle going to do in the future? Will more services come to it? Will current services be improved? Will Flash 10.1 come to it?
Who knows, it'll be supported for as long as Nokia feels like supporting it. This has nothing to do with MeeGo, however.

It is not about upgrading for the sake of upgrading. It is about what features are going to be available for the owners of the devices; and how they are going to get them. Through MeeGo?
No. MeeGo is -only- a distribution.

Through Fremantle?
Freemantle was just an OS last I checked.

The services are provided by the hardware vendor, and you'll have to talk to them. Personally, this is why I dislike services tied to the hardware vendor, they don't want you to change and will leverage what they can to keep you.

From this it looks like a decision on these 3rd party services is still pending. This is enough to get people excited/depressed about the possibility of 3rd party apps in future Meego releases for N900.

Nokia may opt to do so, yes, or they may toss an RPM into the non-free repo with their software. Nokia has to determine what they'll do, which exists outside MeeGo.

mrojas

05-25-2010, 06:39 PM

Agreed, but in the same thread he also said this regarding Ovi apps.

Link:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=676396&postcount=20

From this it looks like a decision on these 3rd party services is still pending. This is enough to get people excited/depressed about the possibility of 3rd party apps in future Meego releases for N900.

And as per Quim, the right place to ask the question is this thread :)

Now that it is interesting. Because if there is no going to be Nokia services, then people that want those features will need an alternative.

We should not look at MeeGo as a goal in itself, its ultimate function is to enable the user to do things. And in that sense, it has to, at the very least, do what Fremantle is already doing. And then build upon it.

smoku

05-25-2010, 06:48 PM

We should not look at MeeGo as a goal in itself, its ultimate function is to enable the user to do things. And in that sense, it has to, at the very least, do what Fremantle is already doing. And then build upon it.

You are confusing Linux distribution named MeeGo, with Nokia project with working name Harmattan, which is an OS built on top of MeeGo, adding Nokia specific services.

MeeGo is a goal in itself.
It's a joint project of Linux Foundation and hardware vendors to create a common platform which vendors can use as a basis for their devices OS.

wmarone

05-25-2010, 06:50 PM

Because if there is no going to be Nokia services, then people that want those features will need an alternative.

Of course, if Nokia is smart they will provide a means for all Nokia hardware owners to get access to their services. Time will tell if they have the smarts to do so.

mrojas

05-25-2010, 06:57 PM

You are confusing Linux distribution named MeeGo, with Nokia project with working name Harmattan, which is an OS built on top of MeeGo, adding Nokia specific services.

MeeGo is a goal in itself.
It's a joint project of Linux Foundation and hardware vendors to create a common platform which vendors can use as a basis for their devices OS.

What I meant is, we should not look at MeeGo on the N900 "just because". If you want to lock down the semantics, what we should aim to is Harmattan (or equivalent) on the N900, with all the features and services that are expected from a modern platform. A vanilla MeeGo on the N900 is not going to cut it.

Edit: And just to make clear that the signs point to that direction. What I worry about is polish, polish, polish. Bullet-proof usability.

scifi.guy

05-25-2010, 07:02 PM

Nokia may opt to do so, yes, or they may toss an RPM into the non-free repo with their software. Nokia has to determine what they'll do, which exists outside MeeGo.

May be now is a good time to add this question to wiki. That will stop people (like me :)) spamming this thread.

Will Nokia release Ovi Maps, Mail for Exchange, Nokia Messaging (etc) to community supported Meego for N900?

http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect

quipper8

05-25-2010, 07:38 PM

meego is a base distro just like android

harmattan is like sense or motoblur or whatever,really a little more than that since it will still have some maemo OS roots, but you get the idea.

i think the hope by nokia is that meego spreads across various manfacturers kinda like android and they can be the best value-add on top of that with free nav and services

qgil

05-25-2010, 10:56 PM

Yes please, let's try to clarify this situation updating that useful wiki page.

May be now is a good time to add this question to wiki. That will stop people (like me :)) spamming this thread.

Will Nokia release Ovi Maps, Mail for Exchange, Nokia Messaging (etc) to community supported Meego for N900?

http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect

There will not be an official MeeGo-Harmattan release for the N900, but there is a possibility that the Nokia official UX and apps for MeeGo-Harmattan are made available to N900 users through a community effort discussed in (this thread). At this point nobody knows what and will not work. Technical discussion, R&D experimentation and official MeeGo-Harmattan releases need to come first in order to tell.

scifi.guy

05-25-2010, 11:29 PM

Yes please, let's try to clarify this situation updating that useful wiki page.

Question and Quim's reply added to wiki here (http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect#Will_Nokia_releas e_their_official_Meego_UX.2C_applications_like_Ovi _Maps.2C_Mail_for_Exchange.2C_Nokia_Messaging_etc_ to_the_community-supported_Meego_for_N900.3F)

GeneralAntilles

05-25-2010, 11:36 PM

There will not be an official MeeGo-Harmattan release for the N900, but there is a possibility that the Nokia official UX and apps for MeeGo-Harmattan are made available to N900 users through a community effort discussed in (this thread). At this point nobody knows what and will not work. Technical discussion, R&D experimentation and official MeeGo-Harmattan releases need to come first in order to tell.

Quite frankly, Nokia damn well better do everything in their power to ensure that Nokia-proprietary and relevant third-party applications (Flash) are available to N900 users using MeeGo.

Anything less would only perfectly confirm (once again) exactly how little Nokia cares for their current customers.

qgil

05-26-2010, 01:22 AM

nosa101

05-26-2010, 01:28 AM

Is that another way of saying, "I don't think flash will want to give out flash 10.1?"

qgil

05-26-2010, 01:56 AM

Is that another way of saying, "I don't think flash will want to give out flash 10.1?"

I will repeat my answer here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=677841#post677841):

There are questions about future releases of Flash. Skype and other 3rd party components with "consumer brands":

Regular Nokia employees are not supposed to speculate or even announce any news about third party software being supported or not in future releases. The initiative corresponds to the companies owning that software or, alternatively, to an official Nokia channel well in sync with those companies. Due to these reasons, please understand if Nokia guys like me will systematically bypass these questions.

attila77

05-26-2010, 03:02 AM

You are confusing Linux distribution named MeeGo, with Nokia project with working name Harmattan, which is an OS built on top of MeeGo, adding Nokia specific services.

Note that we have yet to see how close Harmattan’s base is to MeeGo (the one we’re talking about here). It certainly is not BASED on it (that’s why it was called MeeGo *compatible* and ’instance of’ MeeGo). I suppose things will get a bit clearer when the Harmattan SDK alpha lands and the actual (technical) relation to MeeGo is revealed. Correct me if I’m wrong.

nosa101

05-26-2010, 03:04 AM

I will repeat my answer here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=677841#post677841):

Fair enough

jsa

05-26-2010, 03:35 AM

@qgil

Any ETA for the Harmattan alpha/beta "platform" SDK?

smoku

05-26-2010, 03:42 AM

Note that we have yet to see how close Harmattan’s base is to MeeGo (the one we’re talking about here). It certainly is not BASED on it (that’s why it was called MeeGo *compatible* and ’instance of’ MeeGo). I suppose things will get a bit clearer when the Harmattan SDK alpha lands and the actual (technical) relation to MeeGo is revealed. Correct me if I’m wrong.

You take a basic MeeGo distribution and put Hildon UI (or Qt UI) some Nokia specific apps and services on top and you have system both based on MeeGo and MeeGo compatible - because it has everything MeeGo compatible system requires inside. And it is obviously instance of MeeGo, because there is whole MeeGo core stack inside.

Hope, now you get the idea of what MeeGo is.

In other words it's a way of achieving multi OS application compatibility. If you write an application for the lowest common denominator called MeeGo, your app will run on Nokia Maemo-descendant platforms and on Intel Moblin-descendant platforms and on the in-car computer platform running MeeGo distribution under the hood, and...

Now, there is a point of plain MeeGo running on N900. It's a platform for all these upcoming applications.

Whether Nokia is going to allow redistribution of their proprietary components to N900 users is still unknown. We cannot set a goal of "having Harmattan running on N900", because we don't know whether it will be ever possible.
This is a situation similar to Cyanogen Android distribution. Cyanogen can contain only freely available Android component and is lacking all the Google proprietary apps. You may extract them from your own phone and integrate in Cyanogen installation, but the Cyanogen distribution authors are not allowed to package them.

We at least have a promise that at least 3D drivers will be available for redistribution.

Siddarth

05-26-2010, 03:45 AM

and whats with YAHOO's tieup with Nokia???

N900 gets update but no MeeGo, Nokia teams up with Yahoo!

http://www.gsmarena.com/n900_gets_update_but_no_meego_nokia_teams_up_with_ _yahoo-news-1685.php

attila77

05-26-2010, 04:01 AM

You take a basic MeeGo distribution and put Hildon UI (or Qt UI) some Nokia specific apps and services on top and you have system both based on MeeGo and MeeGo compatible - because it has everything MeeGo compatible system requires inside. And it is obviously instance of MeeGo, because there is whole MeeGo core stack inside.

Hope, now you get the idea of what MeeGo is.

In other words it's a way of achieving multi OS application compatibility. If you write an application for the lowest common denominator called MeeGo, your app will run on Nokia Maemo-descendant platforms and on Intel Moblin-descendant platforms and on the in-car computer platform running MeeGo distribution under the hood, and..

You are talking about application level compatibility (the ’MeeGo API’ as provided by Harmattan). If we are to transplant a whole UX and any custom services, that is not enough, we need to ensure a certain level of system level compatibility, which may or may not be an easy task (no way to tell before the harmattan SDK). It has been communicated that there ARE system and middleware level differences between MeeGo and Harmattan (deb vs rpm anyone?).

qgil

05-26-2010, 04:18 AM

Stskeeps

05-26-2010, 04:30 AM

Carsten please correct me if I'm wrong, but scope of this discussion is to make the MeeGo-Harmattan stack work in the N900.

Running the MeeGo stack in the N900 is a goal covered already by the MeeGo project through the team coordinated by Harri.

No, you're perfectly right. The scope of this discussion is making MeeGo-Harmattan stack work in the N900, as I've started discussing in an earlier post (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=676911&postcount=45).

I think the confusion lies in that people don't know exactly what Harmattan is and the MeeGo branding of it adding to the confusion. And then the thread derailed completely :) And that people don't know exactly what MeeGo is (Harmattan adding to the confusion..)

To make it perfectly clear. The Harmattan stack is an evolved Fremantle (as I understand it), that is, a Debian package based system, which is supposed to be MeeGo compliant, ie, it implements the same APIs applications would expect to find on a 'proper' MeeGo (rpm based) system.

It would be the first system implementing the MeeGo APIs and a MeeGo UX plus applications etc from Nokia's side. And what people would want to upgrade to. Either by buying a new device with Harmattan, or by running the community backport of Harmattan.

A proper 'MeeGo' (RPM based system) with Nokia differentiations, is yet to be seen - hence we can't want to backport it yet :) Give MeeGo (RPM based) time to mature. When it is, I bet it runs on N900 without big problems.

johnel

05-26-2010, 04:43 AM

Before anyone can talk about "services" and "commercial" apps (e.g. skype) we need a fully-working foundation.

Before we even think about the MeeGo UI on the n900 we need a fully-working foundation.

As it stands now, MeeGo on the n900 seems to be heading in the right direction. The imminent next MeeGo release will be almost fully-functioning - with closed source components.

What would make sense it to do another release, include the closed source components and ensure from a technical point-of-view all components are in place and fully-working.

Install some kind of window manager/desktop - it does not have to be a final UI but something people can work with and then anyone can start coding apps (e.g. phone app, battery monitor) and start "fleshing-out" the UI.

Ideally there should not be any closed source components in the platform but it allows us to have a fully working device. Over time we can replace these with open source versions and reach the goal of a truly open sourced mobile device.

Btw: I can't remember where I read this but after the next release of MeeGo for the n900 the release cycle is going to be every 6 months?

Would it not be better to have a rolling-release as functionality is completed?

For me the first major milestone is a fully-functioning layer without the UI.

Then someone could install a window manager (e.g. xfce) and start writing apps (e.g. make phone calls, messaging).

Does this make sense?

What do others think?

Am I just rambling a lot of nonsense?

Where's my coffee?

zaheerm

05-26-2010, 04:50 AM

Sorry, I thought my first post was clear.

In short, this thread is about creating a Hacker/Community edition for the N900 of the OS and apps that Nokia will ship in the first device based on MeeGo.

@qgil excellent, so are Nokia allowing the community to ship the same UX and apps that are on the Harmattan device as a community build for the N900?

attila77

05-26-2010, 05:04 AM

It would be the first system implementing the MeeGo APIs and a MeeGo UX plus applications etc from Nokia's side. And what people would want to upgrade to. Either by buying a new device with Harmattan, or by running the community backport of Harmattan.

A proper 'MeeGo' (RPM based system) with Nokia differentiations, is yet to be seen - hence we can't want to backport it yet :) Give MeeGo (RPM based) time to mature. When it is, I bet it runs on N900 without big problems.

Am I right saying that the real question is what APIs/packages BESIDES the MeeGo ones are used by the UX and services in Harmattan ? For example if some bundled or system app/service uses the Ovi API or a particular gstreamer element, then we will have to make that API/lib available on the community port, too, regardless of it’s status in MeeGo for the N900.

Stskeeps

05-26-2010, 05:12 AM

Am I right saying that the real question is what APIs/packages BESIDES the MeeGo ones are used by the UX and services in Harmattan ? For example if some bundled or system app/service uses the Ovi API or a particular gstreamer element, then we will have to make that API/lib available on the community port, too, regardless of it’s status in MeeGo for the N900.

Right, besides the hardware support components, leave MeeGo for N900 out of it.

Community port would be whatever the content the device image for a Harmattan device would have, with modifications + additions in the package list to make it work on N900.

Nokia binaries we probably won't have trouble with, 3rd party ones we might. Some 3rd parties we can just put in a token repository on tablets-dev (DSP binaries, GLES libs, etc), some are more difficult..

Perceive it as it being possible to take whatever the images are made of (repositories access, hence packages), a list of packages and build an image for N900 out of that..

Then we'll see what real problems we have. Technical, not many.

jsa

05-26-2010, 05:20 AM

@johnel

This thread is about bringing Harmattan to the N900. To put it bluntly, Harmattan is Maemo 6, not MeeGo. MeeGo compliant, maybe.

Now Harri and his team are working on MeeGo on N900. And I'd really expect MeeGo handheld UX to come with open applications needed for the essentials, making calls, sending messages, etc. What's the point if it doesn't? (check the MeeGo bugzilla for components you can file bugs against in the Handheld UX category)

These two projects may be partially intertwined (HW adaptation, parts of the UX maybe) but are not the same.

smoku

05-26-2010, 05:44 AM

To make it perfectly clear. The Harmattan stack is an evolved Fremantle (as I understand it), that is, a Debian package based system, which is supposed to be MeeGo compliant, ie, it implements the same APIs applications would expect to find on a 'proper' MeeGo (rpm based) system.

This is new to me.
What is the source of this information?

johnel

05-26-2010, 06:24 AM

zimon

05-26-2010, 06:28 AM

A link to the relevant Wiki page in the first post would be good.
As interested I am about the issue, I got tired of reading the discussion after 6 pages.
When things get as clear they can get currently, update a Wiki-page (?) and insert the location into the first post, please.

(I also am little dissapointed. Previously I had an impression Nokia will officially support Meego on N900. I guess things change, like with WAP, Pop-Port, N-Gage, Visual Radio, PoC, DVB-H,....)

qgil

05-26-2010, 06:47 AM

@qgil excellent, so are Nokia allowing the community to ship the same UX and apps that are on the Harmattan device as a community build for the N900?

Short advice: keep the work going and don't worry about redistribution at this point. We will find a reasonable way to deal with this.

attila77

05-26-2010, 07:10 AM

This is new to me.
What is the source of this information?

http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect#I_am_confused.__W hat_is_Harmattan_and_what_is_MeeGo_.3F__What_is_th e_difference_between_both_.3F__Do_they_share_commo n_features_.3F

smoku

05-26-2010, 10:32 AM

Stskeeps

05-26-2010, 10:51 AM

So, Harmattan is not MeeGo. It's only called MeeGo, but it is still Maemo. It's not MeeGo product, but MeeGo instance.

OK. Got it. Now it's clear.

So, this thread is about creating MeeGo product which contains Harmattan components, on the contrary to MeeGo instance contained in Harmattan.

No, the thread is about bringing the MeeGo instance contained in Harmattan to N900. Ie, bring Harmattan to N900. Harmattan on N900.

Don't you worry that you will loose audience as soon Nokia launches Harmattan device and starts working on MeeGo device? Similarly to how Mer lost traction once N900 got released.

My (personal) hope is that it is really a trivial port. Similar to how we ported Maemo5 to Beagleboard and Zoom2.. both OMAP3 devices with similar hardware.. But audience.. everyone moves on sometime.

This project is to bridge the gap till MeeGo (RPM based) is mature enough and has differentiation available and we can want to port that to N900. It isn't a new 'big project', it's similar to a mini project like Maemo on Beagle was. And best of all, it is a project to have the N900 not be left behind. And a realistic one of the sort.

It's been a failure if we don't have something working properly on N900 by Harmattan release (or whatever comes right before).

Goal would be to make the hardware adaptation stand on it's own so it can be easily maintained and follow Harmattan releases with ease. Done just right, it would be a minimal set of patches towards Harmattan + some binaries to support N900.

Beginnings would be patching against what is being released in the Harmattan alpha, beta releases. Building images with that, configurations, etc.

johnel

05-26-2010, 11:09 AM

So what was released from MeeGo for the n900 (e.g. the images)?

I'm confused!

Stskeeps

05-26-2010, 11:40 AM

So what was released from MeeGo for the n900 (e.g. the images)?

The MeeGo Core (RPM based system, formerly known as Moblin) + Nokia N900 hardware adaptation. In due time, MeeGo Core + hardware adaptation + Handset UX (from MeeGo project).

Stskeeps

05-26-2010, 12:20 PM

Are we able to use a desktop environment with the first release, like the recent MeeGo release for vehicles? It contained Xfce IIRC. And are you in position to explain what "due time" means, is it like weeks or months :) .

You can ask this over in http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53571 , 'MeeGo hardware adaptation for N900'

russo_br

05-26-2010, 12:32 PM

Nokia can decide alone on Nokia proprietary components and yes we want to do our best. But Nokia doesn't have the last word about third party software, and every third party is different. We can't guarantee or even know at this point what will be their position about redistributing their MeeGo-Harmattan software in a community driven version for the N900.

Sorry, but I can't agree with that, Nokia is not even trying to do its best!!! If they were we would have official support for Meego on N900... just that simple...

It is your job role to defend Nokia's decision here at this forum, but don't think the members here are that naive... The announcement of PR1.2 was strategically used to tell us what Nokia have decided several months ago... As discussed many times the official support for Meego on N900 was a business decision (thus, MONEY related), not due to technical restrictions.

Considering that N900 was launched just half a year ago I don't have any doubt the Meego project was already part of Nokia's roadmap, and yet you launched N900 already knowing that Maemo 5 would not be the priority in just a couple of months!!

You can try to argue in many threads about the application portability with Qt4.6, keep Maemo 5 support with PR1.3 on the roadmap, Meego community version for the N900 and so on... and don't worry, some fanboys will still buy it!! But I am sure there are a lot of users like me who can see that's just excuses to avoid hurting current N900 sales, and the related promises will probably be forgotten once the first Nokia Meego device is launched...

smoku

05-26-2010, 03:03 PM

No, the thread is about bringing the MeeGo instance contained in Harmattan to N900. Ie, bring Harmattan to N900. Harmattan on N900.

So, why don't you say so?
The topic and first post is completely misleading. Especially the "MeeGo based" term.

In other words, its "Mer reloaded"? :)

smoku

05-26-2010, 03:05 PM

Sorry, but I can't agree with that, Nokia is not even trying to do its best!!! If they were we would have official support for Meego on N900... just that simple...

Please be realistic.
Nokia is a business company, not a charity foundation.

geohsia

05-26-2010, 03:11 PM

Please be realistic.
Nokia is a business company, not a charity foundation.

Exactly. Just because we paid for this top-of-the-line phone who are we to expect a decent level of support. /s

nosa101

05-26-2010, 03:18 PM

The MeeGo on future Nokia devices is optimized for capacitive touch. Nokia has promised app compatibility through qt and until they fail to uphold that end of the bargain, bringing out the pitchforks is useless.

smoku

05-26-2010, 03:20 PM

There were three firmware updates for N900 already.
It's more than other manufacturers usually deliver.

geohsia

05-26-2010, 03:33 PM

There were three firmware updates for N900 already.
It's more than other manufacturers usually deliver.

You can say all you want about the iPhone not having copy / paste and etc but 2+ years after its release they got iPhone 3 OS. Where will we be? 3 patch updates in the last few months is great but will we really see Maemo 5 + 2 revs 2 years from now?

The question isn't how hard engineering has worked the last few months, the question is the intended direction of the platform which is precarious at best.

smoku

05-26-2010, 03:37 PM

ROTFL.
iPhone, iPhone, iPhone...

We have our own Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) on TMO ;-)

ysss

05-26-2010, 03:40 PM

Please be realistic.
Nokia is a business company, not a charity foundation.

Yes, businesses always have to aim to improve their bottomline... but there are many ways on how they can do that. Screwing their existing fanbase is quite easily arguably bad for business.

These are the people who have Nokia at the top of their shopping list when it comes time to upgrade their old phones.

These are the people that will speak out positively for you when you can't.

These are the people whom have supported Nokia in the past and they're still here for Nokia through these tough times.

What I'm trying to say is that... you don't have to try to screw everyone else for your own benefit on every opportunity. Aligning their interest with their fanbase can pay huge dividend in the long run.

nosa101

05-26-2010, 03:41 PM

You can say all you want about the iPhone not having copy / paste and etc but 2+ years after its release they got iPhone 3 OS. Where will we be? 3 patch updates in the last few months is great but will we really see Maemo 5 + 2 revs 2 years from now?

The question isn't how hard engineering has worked the last few months, the question is the intended direction of the platform which is precarious at best.

3 new OSes?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9DdROG6amX0/Se_iwxm6FEI/AAAAAAAAABA/PjFOd49TBQI/s1600-h/orly_owl.jpg

EDIT: Sorry for going offtopic

jsa

05-26-2010, 03:44 PM

Could you please take that discussion here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53541) so that this one stays on topic?

geohsia

05-26-2010, 04:09 PM

ROTFL.
iPhone, iPhone, iPhone...

We have our own Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) on TMO ;-)

Well, in this case its behavior that should be emulated.

russo_br

05-26-2010, 10:00 PM

Please be realistic.
Nokia is a business company, not a charity foundation.

So a Nokia employee should not be telling they did everything they could...

I am well aware about business decision process. Just answer me this one question: Do you really believe Nokia was not even talking with Intel about Meego when Maemo 5 was launched last year? If you think Nokia & Intel CEOs just came out with the idea of merging Moblin and Maemo during a weekend barbecue around Feb/March this year, I won't argue with you anymore...

The fact is that Nokia always knew Maemo 5 was born dead, and since they are not a charity foundation, they did everything to hide this information from everybody for 2 main reasons:
- Not hurting N900 sales (remember it is still about to be launched in some countries, including mine...)
- Keeping the community developing within Nokia platforms with all the Qt4.6 revolutionary marketing, while they could be writing applications for competitors like Android or iPhone...

That's really good business for them, but not all Nokia fans will buy it. At least for me it was a terrible business to spend more than 600 bucks on a device I am sure it won't last more than a year... Don't be naive, PR1.2 was the last effective FW for Maemo 5, every other release like PR1.3 will be minor bug corrections, just to quiet down the owners until the Meego device is launched. I am not speculating about that, it is just common sense as it is not cheap to keep OS support for a little user base, so it would be charity to keep that for a long time!!

YoDude

05-26-2010, 10:41 PM

Um.. ok then...
:rolleyes:

***

Back on topic sort of:

Quim, in your opening post you mentioned "an engineering mindset". Do you believe that the N900's CPU Frequency as shipped will be able to handle some of these components gracefully or will adjustments have to be made?

What other hardware limitations, if any, will have to be overcome with regard to running an N900 with this Hacker/Community edition of Harmattan? and the apps that Nokia will ship in the first device based on MeeGo?

flailingmonkey

05-26-2010, 11:27 PM

Frappacino

05-27-2010, 12:47 AM

in other words, we will beg nokia for binary blobs from meego and those crumbs that do fall from the table will end up being incompatible with our n900s.

Hackers and crackers will spend thousands of man hours for free trying to make this work on an n900, when in the end they could've worked at mcDonalds for 1/10th that time and bought the latest device.

I am selling both of my n900s to some of these folks for cheap so they can build a brick wall and I can move on to a newer device at a discount.

I am learning how it works around here, albeit, slowly.

The above is the truth of it.

Apple and Droid have far better track records on this. Those who do not have fanboy rose tinted glasses on when they bought the device are those that are going to remain happy with their device in the future.

Shame on us who didnt do the homework on Nokia's past behaviour and had rose tinted glasses on when we bought the device.

Nokia will not change until consumers tell them to change. Use your power as a consumer accordingly - inform your friends before they fall for Nokia's spin.

PR1.2 is the last major yodate. I bet my n900 phone that when Meego is released, the N900 will NOT be able to access the ecosystem that Nokia will build around Meego. The n900 is a dead device. If you are not happy with it NOW as of 1.2, sell it. You will be happier in the long run.

As for "Open" community support for the Meego OS, past record of such "Open" support have been failures from a usable product standpoint. Do not expect any different this time.

Stskeeps

05-27-2010, 01:09 AM

The above is the truth of it.

Shame on us who didnt do the homework on Nokia's past behaviour and had rose tinted glasses on when we bought the device.

Nokia will not change until consumers tell them to change. Use your power as a consumer accordingly - inform your friends before they fall for Nokia's spin.

Please keep this thread to technical discussion. If you want to be pissed about reality, go to one of the other threads.

This thread is about fixing reality to give us something that works on our devices in collaboration with Nokia who is really doing the right thing and providing ability for us to do this properly.

Now, on to the technical part. Who's in for helping out once Harmattan alpha/beta comes around? Not so much in UI department, but in general system hacking.

List your interest in where you think you can help out and what you'd need to have to do your job properly.

smoku

05-27-2010, 02:25 AM

As I already told you on IRC, my Anemo project has a bit different goals. But extracting viable Harmattan components and repackaging them could only help on functionality, so you can count me in. :)

Texrat

05-27-2010, 02:33 AM

and whats with YAHOO's tieup with Nokia???

N900 gets update but no MeeGo, Nokia teams up with Yahoo!

http://www.gsmarena.com/n900_gets_update_but_no_meego_nokia_teams_up_with_ _yahoo-news-1685.php

Not relevant to this discussion.

qgil

05-27-2010, 02:54 AM

About the confusion, try this: No release from meego.com will give you Ovi Maps for the N900. This project here attempts to make MeeGo-Harmattan Ovi Maps (and the rest of Nokia/Ovi apps) work in the N900.

If after this you still don't get it please be precise saying what you don't understand. :)

Rants about Maemo 5 updates, Nokia or even myself: please bring them somewhere else. We are trying to work on a specific goal in this thread and the extra noise doesn't really help. Besides, when it comes to business/proprietary stuff I'm just a messenger and I try to be a useful one. Don't kill me.

Back on topic sort of:

Quim, in your opening post you mentioned "an engineering mindset". Do you believe that the N900's CPU Frequency as shipped will be able to handle some of these components gracefully or will adjustments have to be made?

What other hardware limitations, if any, will have to be overcome with regard to running an N900 with this Hacker/Community edition of Harmattan? and the apps that Nokia will ship in the first device based on MeeGo?

The proper answer could give hints about the next hardware and MeeGo-Harmattan release, which is something I want and must avoid.

Let's say that I see the effort is worth and I'm looking forward to the results just like you. It's a good idea to set the user expectations really low because we have no practical proof to show anything better yet. If the reality is better than these low expectations then it will speak for itself.

Underpromise & (if you can) overdeliver. Always works.

johnel

05-27-2010, 09:13 AM

So basically,

MeeGo Core + Nokia Hardware adjustments + UI from MeeGo = "vanilla" MeeGo

Then

MeeGo Core + Nokia hardware adjustments + UI from Nokia = Harmattan

MeeGo Core + Nokia hardware adjustments = What's been released from MeeGo so far?

smoku

05-27-2010, 09:21 AM

Harmattan = Maemo 6 + Meego compatibility layer

MeeGo Core + Nokia hardware adjustments + UI from Nokia = What-this-thread-is-about

russo_br

05-27-2010, 09:39 AM

Rants about Maemo 5 updates, Nokia or even myself: please bring them somewhere else. We are trying to work on a specific goal in this thread and the extra noise doesn't really help. Besides, when it comes to business/proprietary stuff I'm just a messenger and I try to be a useful one. Don't kill me.

Extra noise and FUD was generated by Nokia when they got official about abandoning Maemo 5 and help N900 owners to get "community support" (how considering... like a charity donation, thanks!!).

I don't earn money with Maemo or Meego, in fact as a customer I only spent a lot of money buying my N900, so I don't care for your so called effort as a messenger to get a community version, that's just collateral damage control to avoid hurting N900 sales and keep developers on the Meego path. Your messages objective is clearly to avoid FUD and keep the community aligned with Nokia business plans.

Don't take this personal. Although I am probably not being so polite due to emotional reactions to recent news, when anyone refers to you is not the person Quim, but Nokia company since you represent it. Messengers were always used to the purpose of their bosses... you are lucky not to be a messenger during war in medieval times, when they cut their heads off... (at least as dramatized by movies...)

daperl

05-27-2010, 10:24 AM

@reggie

I'm not sure if it's technically possible, but can you please ban russo_br from this thread. The noise is killing me.

Oh, and russo_br, f*ck off already.

Stskeeps

05-27-2010, 11:59 AM

Oh and the other thing that everyone seem to be forgetting..

Harmattan UI framework development is opened (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44562).. and where did it run.. what was it.. N900? Widgets gallery.

So, can we at least agree it seems likely a port of Harmattan to N900 is entirely possible? :)

mikec

05-27-2010, 02:04 PM

johnel

05-28-2010, 03:47 AM

Harmattan = Maemo 6 + Meego compatibility layer

MeeGo Core + Nokia hardware adjustments + UI from Nokia = What-this-thread-is-about

Aha!

That means I am on the right thread. Good.

Can I assume the UI from Nokia will be truly open source(e.g. Release of source code and developed publicly)?

EDIT: Just read the thread on Harmattan becoming publicly open source project. Will it be the same for MeeGo(Nokia UI)?

jsa

05-28-2010, 05:20 AM

Guys, it's not that difficult. :) This thread is about Harmattan (Maemo 6 core + Nokia hardware adjustments + UI & applications from Nokia), period.

The Harmattan UI Framework is open sourced and it's already been renamed MeeGo Touch UI Framework. I assume the Linux Foundation reference Handset UI will utilize this same framework as Harmattan. Linux Foundation's reference UI + applications should be open source. Nokia can replace some of these with closed source equivalents in their own products if they so choose.

harrihakulinen

05-28-2010, 05:25 AM

Harmattan = Maemo 6 + Meego compatibility layer

MeeGo Core + Nokia hardware adjustments + UI from Nokia = What-this-thread-is-about

Sorry but NO.

Perhaps I have caused the confusion, so I try to clear it a bit:

This thread is about "MeeGo-Harmattan" on N900 (I confirmed that from Quim).

So it does NOT have much to do with 'MeeGo hardware adaptation for N900'. There may be some or even lots of sofware like kernel drivers that are used on both, but essentially they are doing different things.

I try also with those equations :

MeeGo-Harmattan = Maemo 6 + 'Meego compatibility layer'

MeeGo = MeeGo Core + MeeGo UX

In reality, the actual difference is much smaller that it looks. Because before we started MeeGo, Maemo 6 and Moblin 2 were almost the same already, and we have not gone far from that baseline. But properly explaining that would require real comparison document rather than a post here.

Br,
//Harri

johnel

05-28-2010, 05:38 AM

Oh no I've gone cross-eyed:

http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/crosseyed.jpg

Basically Harmattan was an independant development from Nokia.

MeeGo was an independant development knows as Moblin.

Nokia said "f*** me - Moblin and Harmattan are very similar let's get naked and merge"

Harmattan project is continuing but going to include software that makes it compatible with MeeGo.

MeeGo development continues as usual using n900 as reference platform (using a MeeGo UI - modded by Nokia).

???????

Matan

05-28-2010, 05:48 AM

I find it hilarious that people don't even realize what this means. How about I yell it?

HARMATTAN ON N900!!
HARMATTAN ON N900!!
HARMATTAN ON N900!!

Anyway, let me just say "voi ei!" can't some marketing staff help you convince the business guys that, yes you really do need to be allowed to say more, for the sake of happy community? =P Good luck with that!

And to all you whiners and doomsayers, eat crowwww.

When you say "HARMATTAN ON N900!!"

Do you mean that it will include the phone program that will be on HARMATTAN device? It will surely not be as pathetic as the maemo5 one.

Do you mean that it will include the hardware accelerated Flash 10.1 that HARMATTAN device will probably include?

Will it include the improved OVI maps that HARMATTAN device will probably include?

Will it include skype?

Because without all those, it will be "HARMATTAN ON N900!!" in the same way that mer is "FREMANTLE ON N810!!!".

Those are four simple Yes/No questions. If they were answered in this thread or in any other offician statement from Nokia, I did not see the answers.

nosa101

05-28-2010, 05:49 AM

Seriously.. wipe your mind of everything you know. We need to start fresh.

There is two operating systems. Harmattan, think of it as a Maemo 6, and MeeGo - think of it as.. MeeGo.

Harmattan will be on the next device. This device will be compatible with MeeGo, but it is not MeeGo.

The N900 is the development platform for MeeGo. There will be (and is) MeeGo ports for the N900.

Harmattan has, at this point, nothing to do at all in any fashion way shape form or transparent mist with the N900. There is, however, a thread started by qgil about working on a Community Hacker Edition of Harmattan to run on the N900.

-fatalsaint

fieryriver

05-28-2010, 05:51 AM

same here: end-user. I think its great we have a dedicated community like this and look forward to this project. Thank you. good to know we can depend on the community even if nokia won't hold our hands (nokia hand logo thing get it ;p)

jsa

05-28-2010, 05:52 AM

Basically Harmattan was an independant development from Nokia.

MeeGo was an independant development knows as Moblin.

Nokia said "f*** me - Moblin and Harmattan are very similar let's get naked and merge"

Harmattan project is continuing but going to include software that makes it compatible with MeeGo.

MeeGo development continues as usual using n900 as reference platform (using a MeeGo UI - modded by Nokia).

???????

Maemo 6 codenamed Harmattan was independent development from Nokia.

Moblin was an independent development known as Moblin.

Nokia and intel said 'f*** us, we are both developing our own linux distros (Maemo and Moblin), why not develop just one base together and we can add multiple UXes on top'

Harmattan project is continuing because it was in a point of no return on it's way to a handset that'll be out somewhere in H2 2010. Some of the software needed in MeeGo to be MeeGo compliant will be from Harmattan, I think.

MeeGo is a project from Linux Foundation and N900 is the reference handset/ARM platform for that development.

This is how I see it, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

johnel

05-28-2010, 06:00 AM

Maemo 6 codenamed Harmattan was independent development from Nokia.

Moblin was an independent development known as Moblin.

Nokia and intel said 'f*** us, we are both developing our own linux distros (Maemo and Moblin), why not develop just one base together and we can add multiple UXes on top'

Harmattan project is continuing because it was in a point of no return on it's way to a handset that'll be out somewhere in H2 2010. Some of the software needed in MeeGo to be MeeGo compliant will be from Harmattan, I think.

MeeGo is a project from Linux Foundation and N900 is the reference handset/ARM platform for that development.

This is how I see it, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

That makes much more sense!

I need a lye down - already had a migraine this week don't want another one.

EDIT: Rejoice, rejoice he who is called "qgil" has blessed jla's post - the riddle of the Nokia ancients has been solved!

qgil

05-28-2010, 06:09 AM

When you say "HARMATTAN ON N900!!"

Nobody can't predict the future but...

- It should have telephony, yes.

- Flash, you have the technical question (will it work or not, how well will it perform) and you have the legal question (Adobe allowing redistribution of the software to the community).

- Same for Skype.

- Same for Ovi Maps although the owner is Nokia and the maps are available to download, so the legal aspect looks simpler.

Those are four simple Yes/No questions.

No, they are not. There is a technical feasibility and performance to be seen and there is a very grey area around certifications, EULAs, R&D experimentation and fair use.

This situation would be simpler if there would be proprietary software downloadable and installable under their own EULA acceptance, just like Adobe or Skype do for PCs.

johnel

05-28-2010, 06:17 AM

Initially, no Skype, no Ovi Maps and no Flash.

To be fair we should have a stable release before we think about third-party apps.

Even without these apps it will be a very versatile device.

I would like to think that telephony is a given.

While Harmattan is being developed maybe we should start negotiating with these companies to include their software (unless being discussed already by Nokia?)

qgil

05-28-2010, 06:18 AM

fyi I have requested the moderators to rename the topic of this thread:

"N900 community support for the MeeGo-Harmattan release from Nokia"

Hope it helps.

Chrome

05-28-2010, 06:24 AM

@qgil

MeeGo 1.1 will have Handhelds UX, or at least thats what i heard. The question is will it have Harmattan's UX like the first MeeGo device from nokia, or Intel's own UX?
Also will Nokia allow us to use Harmattans UX in the hackers edition of MeeGo, or we'll have to make our own UX?

Sorry if these questions are asked before :D

smoku

05-28-2010, 06:31 AM

OK. So now I have no idea what this thread is about and what exactly you guys want to accomplish. Sorry.

I guess I just skip it and unsubscribe the thread.

qgil

05-28-2010, 06:36 AM

MeeGo 1.1 will have Handhelds UX, or at least thats what i heard. The question is will it have Harmattan's UX like the first MeeGo device from nokia, or Intel's own UX?
Also will Nokia allow us to use Harmattans UX in the hackers edition of MeeGo, or we'll have to make our own UX?

Both MeeGo Handset UX and MeeGo-Harmattan will have a UI based on the MeeGo Touch framework that was introduced in the Maemo Summit last year as "Harmattan UI Framework". By "Intel's own UX" I guess you mean "MeeGo's own UX". That "UX" includes the system UI and applications. You will see the differences when the MeeGo Handset UX and the MeeGo-Harmattan UX are public, but for now it's not that relevant, really. The foundation and APIs are the same.

I work at Nokia and I started this thread inviting the community to play with MeeGo-Harmattan as soon as it's public in order to make it work in the N900 as good as technically possible. Ys, there is a legal grey area but let's not get obsessed about it now. The first thing is to see if this initiative can deliver something technically usable and useful, with a real user demand beyind the usual tinkerers.

lemmyslender

05-28-2010, 08:21 AM

with a real user demand beyind the usual tinkerers.

That is a tricky question to answer.

There are plenty of post complaining that Nokia won't support MeeGo-Harmattan on the N900 officially. You can certainly take that as "real user" support. However, I think most of those posters assume that would mean things like Flash, Skype, Maps, Ovi, etc.

If MeeGo-Harmattan on the N900 lacks some/all of those items, it becomes relevant to the tinkerers only, not the "real users".

My fear is unless it is determined that some/all of that software is confirmed, only tinkerers will support it, and then based on "lack of real user support" stay a tinkerer only project.

qgil

05-28-2010, 08:27 AM

Indeed: functionality, popularity and legalese are tied somehow.

We can get obsessed about this endless loop or we can forget about popularity and legalese at this point and concentrate on the technical work for having the functionality in place. If a decent level is not reached in the technical part then why bother about the rest,

johnel

05-28-2010, 09:00 AM

OK.

A foundation exists that can be installed onto the n900 that displays an xterm. At the moment closed-source binaries enable full functionality of this foundation.

The Harmattan UI now open source (http://duiframework.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/announcing-the-open-source-release-of-the-maemo-6-ui-framework/) currently installable to the n900 (maemo5).

Can the same Harmattan UI be installed onto the foundation layer?

Or have I deviated from Harmattan project?

lcuk

05-28-2010, 09:37 AM

Sorry, I thought my first post was clear.

In short, this thread is about creating a Hacker/Community edition for the N900 of the OS and apps that Nokia will ship in the first device based on MeeGo.

Hey, I just spoke with Carsten in #meego-arm

His hacking and building towards meego on arm is commendable, however it seems that it is targeting the full meego-rpm distribution.

I am under the impression this differs from what the Meego-harmattan release will be by virtue not only of the packaging mechanism but most likely the underlying versions.

Can we have some clarification on whether a version of meego based on the Harmattan branch is possible to be worked on in public and if so, where is this work being undertaken?

Stskeeps

05-28-2010, 09:46 AM

Hey, I just spoke with Carsten in #meego-arm

His hacking and building towards meego on arm is commendable, however it seems that it is targeting the full meego-rpm distribution.

Who says I can't contribute with my time in multiple places? :P There's not much work that can be done before Harmattan SDK's are out.

lcuk

05-28-2010, 09:54 AM

Who says I can't contribute with my time in multiple places? :P There's not much work that can be done before Harmattan SDK's are out.

Ok Carsten,
so theres no work being done publicly towards Meego-Harmattan at this time?

ie nobody is trying to get this version of meego onto n900 and all work is towards a later other version of 'true meego' ?

Stskeeps

05-28-2010, 10:21 AM

Ok Carsten,
so theres no work being done publicly towards Meego-Harmattan at this time?

ie nobody is trying to get this version of meego onto n900 and all work is towards a later other version of 'true meego' ?

There's obviously going kernel work going on in the MeeGo (RPM based) for N900 project. This piece are bound to be integrated to MeeGo-Harmattan-on-N900. There can't be any public work done until well, Harmattan in some kind is out.

fatalsaint

05-28-2010, 10:36 AM

Not much more I can add beyond all that up top.

If you are still confused, the best way you can look at it is using the package management. MeeGo is RPM, Harmattan is DEB (same as our N900 current Maemo). Even if you've no idea what that means, just understand that the letters RPM don't equal DEB and we're good.

This thread about taking the DEB base (so maemo), adding MeeGo compat layer, and adding the MeeGo/Harmattan Handset UX. That is what Harmattan will be on the next device.

Now, this leads into my question:

Why? Don't get me wrong - I think it's cool to have this project/idea and when Harmattan does open up porting it might be fun... but still - why?

I do understand the differences between RPM and DEB; and while personally I prefer DEB, that's neither here nor there. The real crutch here is, especially for end users: All indications are that the UI/UX used on Harmattan will be extremely similar if not identical to the MeeGo handset UI/UX - hell, they renamed Harmattan to MeeGo (speaking specifically to the UI/UX).

So honestly, whats the point of working on two ports of two operating systems that in the end will be (theoretically) completely compatible with eachother and also look identical?

Why split up focus like that? It seems to me just focusing on improving and quicker porting of the MeeGo base, with the Handset UI/UX is all that is needed because MeeGo is the real future, and Harmattan is just being finished so that the investment into it wasn't wasted.

Unless Harmattan, with the deb base, includes things that will be lost once the move to full MeeGo takes place? Like GTK+?

Because really, if they are truly compatible as I'm to understand the hope is for them to be, it is not difficult by any measure to grab a DEB, repackage it to RPM, and throw into the MeeGo repositories instead of just using the Harmattan ones directly.

Stskeeps

05-28-2010, 10:52 AM

Why? Don't get me wrong - I think it's cool to have this project/idea and when Harmattan does open up porting it might be fun... but still - why?

Best way for me to rationalize it is to look at a timeline where we have Fremantle lifetime (up to it's last updates), Harmattan alpha to final release, MeeGo releases, a future Nokia productized MeeGo (RPM!). These don't go on a straight line, more like parallel ones.

Harmattan is obviously closest and would be the first one feature complete. MeeGo develops alongside and pushes out versions which we have ('community'/MeeGo) project support for on N900. Nokia puts on their differentiation at some point but I have no idea how that'll look like (I can't tell the future).

This project would track Harmattan releases and end up in something similar to it's final release, but for N900. Logic dictates that a productized MeeGo will first come later.

This is to fill the gap between Fremantle lifetime being up and a quite usable MeeGo (RPM) on N900. Most people will be fine with Fremantle updates, some want the newest of the newest.

Also, what qgil said:

The first thing is to see if this initiative can deliver something technically usable and useful, with a real user demand beyind the usual tinkerers.

johnel

05-28-2010, 10:58 AM

How close are we to a release - even it is a development version?

Stskeeps

05-28-2010, 11:01 AM

How close are we to a release - even it is a development version?

To Harmattan alpha, beta or whatever? Don't know. Think they mentioned some things on Maemo Summit but I forget what.

Again, we can't really do much until this is out.

attila77

05-28-2010, 11:05 AM

To Harmattan alpha, beta or whatever? Don't know. Think they mentioned some things on Maemo Summit but I forget what.

Harmattan Alpha SDK in 2010Q1, but I guess MeeGo threw a wrench or to into that plan.

fatalsaint

05-28-2010, 11:11 AM

This is to fill the gap between Fremantle lifetime being up and a quite usable MeeGo (RPM) on N900. Most people will be fine with Fremantle updates, some want the newest of the newest.

Also, what qgil said:

The first thing is to see if this initiative can deliver something technically usable and useful, with a real user demand beyind the usual tinkerers.

I understand all your points - but I have to wonder. MeeGo 1.1 should be the first stable Handset release due at and near the same time as the Harmattan phone.

Thus, I would think anyway, that anything lacking in MeeGo 1.1 could be stolen from the open parts of Harmattan - sure - to produce a workable, usable, and ready product at about the same time as Harmattan comes out. (They seem to be moving quite quickly with MeeGo, if they stick to the deadlines).

I also would think, from a technical POV (addressing the qgil statement), it would be easier to grab components from Harmattan and use them on MeeGo (already ported and running on the N900) than to port the full Harmattan OS/Stack to the N900 after it is opened up.

So I guess that's where I sort of have to wonder if it's really that worth it.

qgil

05-28-2010, 12:24 PM

Harmattan Alpha SDK in 2010Q1, but I guess MeeGo threw a wrench or to into that plan.

Indeed. MeeGo Handset UX open development is the first in the queue.

Sorry, I can't give concrete dates about MeeGo-Harmattan but at least you can count on this dependency.

qgil

05-28-2010, 12:42 PM

This thread about taking the DEB base (so maemo), adding MeeGo compat layer, and adding the MeeGo/Harmattan Handset UX. That is what Harmattan will be on the next device.

Now, this leads into my question:

Why? Don't get me wrong - I think it's cool to have this project/idea and when Harmattan does open up porting it might be fun... but still - why?

You answered the question yourself! :)

When MeeGo-Harmattan is launchedd next to a new Nokia device many people with an N900 will say: I want that! The "MeeGo-Harmattan Community Edition" will be the closest option for N900 users (and nobody knows today how close that be).

Even if MeeGo from meego.com is available for the N900 and shares an API compatible layer, Ovi Maps and other closed binaries in that MeeGo-Harmattan will be available only as debs. Not easy to make them run on top of plain MeeGo (rpm and slightly different middleware), I would say.

fatalsaint

05-28-2010, 12:48 PM

Even if MeeGo from meego.com is available for the N900 and shares an API compatible layer, Ovi Maps and other closed binaries in that MeeGo-Harmattan will be available only as debs. Not easy to make them run on top of plain MeeGo (rpm and slightly different middleware), I would say.

Thanks, makes a little more sense.

But is there a way to prevent a deb from being extracted and repackaged?

I mean.. if Ovi Maps is out there in a deb we can get our hands on - it should be packageable to RPM.

But.. the middleware brings up a good point I guess. If the drivers/software/whatever that interfaces to the actual GPS device, or the telephone stack is different (I doubt you can answer this, is ofono whats going to be used in Harmattan - or will it be like Maemo 5?) - then there may be some software that just flat out won't work. It could probably be ported and "run".. but fail to actually do anything because something important is missing.

Stskeeps

05-28-2010, 03:50 PM

I also would think, from a technical POV (addressing the qgil statement), it would be easier to grab components from Harmattan and use them on MeeGo (already ported and running on the N900) than to port the full Harmattan OS/Stack to the N900 after it is opened up.

From a process point of view, we benefit from all the testing being done to Harmattan as well. With exceptions to the community parts where we do our own community testing.

Which is a good reason for not taking the 'port harmattan content to meego (rpm)' direction. Admittedly, it is tempting from a technical point of view, but I think it's better for end users to go for the 'port Harmattan to N900.

russo_br

05-28-2010, 07:35 PM

Maemo 6 codenamed Harmattan was independent development from Nokia.

Moblin was an independent development known as Moblin.

Nokia and intel said 'f*** us, we are both developing our own linux distros (Maemo and Moblin), why not develop just one base together and we can add multiple UXes on top'

Harmattan project is continuing because it was in a point of no return on it's way to a handset that'll be out somewhere in H2 2010. Some of the software needed in MeeGo to be MeeGo compliant will be from Harmattan, I think.

MeeGo is a project from Linux Foundation and N900 is the reference handset/ARM platform for that development.

This is how I see it, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

You are not wrong, as you said, f*** us customers, let's go another way since Maemo 5 was a totally failure!! That's the real message... prove me wrong, I dare you!!

wmarone

05-28-2010, 07:38 PM

You are not wrong, as you said, f*** us customers, let's go another way since Maemo 5 was a totally failure!! That's the real message... prove me wrong, I dare you!!

Good job on the totally irrational and offensive post. You're the one making the assertion, -YOU PROVE IT-.

EDIT: I removed the insult from the quotation. -sjgadsby

And in reference to whom you quoted, he's probably completely right. Duplicating effort in the mobile front like Nokia and Intel were doing was a complete waste of time, money, and resources. Putting it under the Linux Foundation banner ensures that we don't have to question the motives of the developer (see Android) when utilizing it.

russo_br

05-28-2010, 07:46 PM

Thanks, makes a little more sense.
But is there a way to prevent a deb from being extracted and repackaged?
I mean.. if Ovi Maps is out there in a deb we can get our hands on - it should be packageable to RPM.

The point here is Nokia worrying about N900 user base or not, simple like that... They just don't seem to care about Ovi Maps on N900, since Maemo 5 is definitely destined to death, along with N900. Meego is the way to go, f*** off customer base....

johnel

05-28-2010, 08:52 PM

Just to make this clear the original quote was based on this (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=685102&postcount=128).

It was in reference to Nokia talking to themselves.
JSA povided a useful answer by paraphrasing and correcting my post.
The "F*** us" is Nokia and Intel/moblin referring to themselves.

Brusso_pr was feebly trying to twist the meaning of the quote to infer something else.

@Brusso_pr: I really don't think you have anything meaningful to add to this discussion.

In fact you add a sense of irony to the title "N900 community support for the MeeGo-Harmattan release from Nokia"

fatalsaint

05-28-2010, 10:09 PM

The point here is Nokia worrying about N900 user base or not, simple like that... They just don't seem to care about Ovi Maps on N900, since Maemo 5 is definitely destined to death, along with N900. Meego is the way to go, f*** off customer base....

.......

Meh... you're not worth it.
--------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the additional response @Stskeeps. I understand a bit better why it might be worth pursuing.

qgil

05-29-2010, 02:25 AM

I have edited the first post adding the request to stay on topic and constructive mood in this thread. We have insisted a few times but obviously newcomers are not finding them inside within the many posts.

I hope it helps to make this thread more productive. Thank you!

The disclaimer:

Please don't bug the people working here with questions/complaints about Maemo 5, open/closed software, official updates or MeeGo. There are plenty of threads for this just a click away.

The project discussed here is about getting the API, UX and apps of the first MeeGo device from Nokia (aka "MeeGo-Harmattan", provisional name) running in the N900. For insiders, this basically means making Harmattan run in the N900. The Harmattan content is not public yet and nobody really knows how good the releases of this initiative will be. Follow the MeeGo hardware adaptation for N900 (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53571) thread to have an idea of the worst case scenario to be expected.

How can you help? Please be constructive. Be ready to test and provide feedback. And be patient: this project can't dliver faster than the MeeGo & Harmattan projects themselves.

Thank you!

flailingmonkey

05-30-2010, 01:12 AM

I am very much looking forward to the first release of Harmattan code (meaning, the SDK), and really appreciate the lengths maemo.org and Nokia team members have gone to in order to fill in the vacuum of communication that is caused by various policies and legal issues, while not revealing information they are not authorized to release.

For those who are not able to read between the lines, and are only interested in a user perspective, you really only care about what you can use. Things like "official support" don't mean what you might think it means, when all you want to know is if you'll get the Harmattan versions of Ovi Maps and Flash on your sexy N900. I understand these coveting these gems of the closed-source variety consume your thoughts and dreams, but understand that employees can get fired if they release information they have not been authorized to provide.

In the case of these nuggets of proprietary software it really comes down to two categories. Nokia's own applications, and the applications of other companies that have a licensing agreement with Nokia for Harmattan. For the first category, we've got multiple statements in this thread that confirm Nokia will allow it. For the second category, and this is the important bit, it's not even Nokia's call but they are asking those other companies to allow it for this purpose as well. Someone at Nokia is literally going up to bat for getting all these things users want available in the project this whole thread is about.

Honestly, this should be the most popular thread on t.m.o

This is why you should have been singing hallelujah when reading this thread instead of spreading more FUD about N900 being left behind.

Calabim

06-01-2010, 03:14 PM

Just lie to me and say MfE will be fixed with Harmattan, then I am all ready to start testing and assisting. :)

On a more serious note, I would love to assist in any way possible, not a developer though.
My decision to buy this phone was based on the community support and possibilities of community projects.

Jeeper

06-01-2010, 04:27 PM

No worry, when your n900 is due to replace Apple has its new iphone ready. Its told that it will be with multitasking and shiploads of apps;) And lots of people who like to develope apps for it because its alive !

mokkey

06-02-2010, 09:57 AM

apple is running tings . . . . .we need apps we need developers we need alot to catch up with apple.

im geting the new iphone when it comes out :D lol

cfh11

06-02-2010, 10:02 AM

Ugh... where did the apple talk come from..... this thread is about Meego on the n900 stay on topic please

mokkey

06-02-2010, 10:08 AM

lol i no im just sayin we need more apps and more developers for the n900 so i am on topic "cfh11"!

Chrome

06-02-2010, 10:12 AM

Yes you're off topic, the discussion here is about getting the API, UX and apps of the first MeeGo device from Nokia running in the N900.

mokkey

06-02-2010, 11:29 AM

lol ok

"on topic" when we get the n900 meego is it possible to clock the cpu faster then normal cos at the default clock its kinda slugish?

abill_uk

06-02-2010, 11:37 AM

lol ok

"on topic" when we get the n900 meego is it possible to clock the cpu faster then normal cos at the default clock its kinda slugish?

Yes easy done as long as you add a heatsink and drill a few holes either side of the case for ventilation... thats the way it should be done NOT to fry the m/b lol.

mokkey

06-02-2010, 11:38 AM

Yes easy done as long as you add a heatsink and drill a few holes either side of the case for ventilation... thats the way it should be done NOT to fry the m/b lol.

fry i dont no about that mate but like make the phone run faster and less laggy

abill_uk

06-02-2010, 11:49 AM

fry i dont no about that mate but like make the phone run faster and less laggy

Yes i agree absolutely and i think to at least 1ghz but to be safe heatsink the cpu and give it some breathing space will make your device last a lot longer lol.

mokkey

06-02-2010, 12:27 PM

Yes i agree absolutely and i think to at least 1ghz but to be safe heatsink the cpu and give it some breathing space will make your device last a lot longer lol.

dont you fink 1ghz will be to much the battery wouldnt last i say 900hz

sygys

06-03-2010, 05:30 AM

if 95% of the glitches are out i think it will run just fine on 600

mokkey

06-03-2010, 10:22 AM

if 95% of the glitches are out i think it will run just fine on 600

i dont fink so i fink it needs to be faster then 600 i say min of 750-850

Texrat

06-03-2010, 10:34 AM

lol ok

"on topic" when we get the n900 meego is it possible to clock the cpu faster then normal cos at the default clock its kinda slugish?

This is actually not really on topic. Just a few posts after Quim called for a restore to order and right back off the thread goes.

Bring it back in, guys. And knock off the attack tags.

mokkey

06-03-2010, 10:49 AM

This is actually not really on topic. Just a few posts after Quim called for a restore to order and right back off the thread goes.

Bring it back in, guys. And knock off the attack tags.

it is on topic its about meego on n900 you a** so jam ur hype!

Texrat

06-03-2010, 10:52 AM

it is on topic its about meego on n900 you a** so jam ur hype!

Going after a moderator? Not your wisest move.

You were given fair warning. I recommend you listen instead of arguing.

mokkey

06-03-2010, 10:57 AM

Going after a moderator? Not your wisest move.

You were given fair warning. I recommend you listen instead of arguing.

i ent going after any 1 im just sayin it is on topic its a good idea for meego?

neotalk

06-03-2010, 11:06 AM

i ent going after any 1 im just sayin it is on topic its a good idea for meego?

speak english please?

Texrat

06-03-2010, 11:08 AM

i ent going after any 1 im just sayin it is on topic its a good idea for meego?

Please read Quim's post about the subject matter very carefully, thanks:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=687415&postcount=162

nicola.mfb

06-04-2010, 06:56 AM

I will happy to collaborate, but how?

For users I suppose testing upcoming(?) images? in that case should we wait for Nokia releasing first the new harmattan device, or some preview will be available before?

For developers I guess porting maemo5 community software to harmattan? in that case I'd like to know details about the harmattan middleware/gui.

IIRC the gui will be changed deeply, new window manager qgraphicsview based, system menu and applications qt based right? in the new DE will maemo5 hildon apps will be compatible (reusing XAtoms, etc.)? how much the new DE shares code with meego touch framework?

And what's about the middleware? will we see icd, sscd, csd, etc? or harmattan is going to get some meego stuff (ofono, connman, etc.?)

(the two questions are there to understand better if nokia (on the next harmattan device) and community developers (on the n900) are going to waste time, or their efforts, at least in some parts, will be reusable on meego)

And finally I just guess that harmattan will have some closed nokia parts, and AFAIK there is no public and documented way to produce a maemo rootfs from scratch, so this community harmattan edition needs anyway Nokia "semiofficial" support for the n900 adaption, will that be assured in some way, or simply nokia will release to the community the necessary binary packages, code, tools and documentation?

Sorry if some question may seem stupid or have obvious answers, but it's not easy to gather all the information, did I lost a wiki page?

Thanks.

flailingmonkey

06-04-2010, 08:51 AM

nicola.mfb: for most of the juicy harmattan details, we have to wait for the Harmattan SDK alpha/beta release. Until then, Nokia policies forbid their employees (who do know all of these details) from releasing that information to the public (that would be us). While its a bummer, I hope that most people realize that breaking those kinds of policies can have severe consequences for the employee responsible, so please don't ask them to risk their jobs.

As for the Nokia assistance regarding the closed parts, there have been a bunch of posts in this thread which confirm that they will provide help, but they aren't going to provide consumer level support (that's what "official support" really means to Nokia). Which is wonderful news indeed :-)

nicola.mfb

06-04-2010, 09:17 AM

Oh Yes! that's is really wonderful! and yes, I understand the NDA, so not forbidden answers are welcome ;)

Anyway some info is already available looking at sources, just now I'm trying to compile the harmattan gui and can see the word "meego" everywhere :) well that makes much sense, just suppose that at some point it will be branched and freezed for the harmattan release.

A little speculation about the middleware, it's not yet ready, and may be the same is for the gui part or higher levels that has to speak with it (just thinking that telepathy ring was just announced and the isimodem driver is in heavy development), so the harmattan device *should* be an hybrid less or more meego centric depending on the roadmap/release date and development speed due to the need of freeze and qa tests, and that may be reasonable.

Well all that (if true) will make the n900 very near to meego instances and products (if I understood well the terms) => near to apps too.

Just waiting for the next step ;)

mokkey

06-04-2010, 06:05 PM

speak english please?

what are you gassing it is KMT

nosa101

06-04-2010, 06:18 PM

what are you gassing it is KMT

Porque????

Venemo

06-10-2010, 06:27 PM

Hi Everyone,

I'm not really sure about what is the current state of MeeGo and stuff, but I have a question.

I saw some very convincing videos and pictures about the MeeGo tablet user experience.
Is the UX also open source?
Does it work together with the current release of MeeGo?

Is it possible to use the current "MeeGo 1.0 for N900" together with that UX on the N900 now?

wmarone

06-10-2010, 06:37 PM

Is the UX also open source?
http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-netbook-ux

Does it work together with the current release of MeeGo?
The current release of MeeGo for netbooks includes it.

Is it possible to use the current "MeeGo 1.0 for N900" together with that UX on the N900 now?
Maybe, but you'd have to build and install it. The handset UX will be available at http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-handset-ux once it's out.

Venemo

06-10-2010, 06:48 PM

http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-netbook-ux
I was talking about the tablet UX, not the netbook one.

wmarone

06-10-2010, 06:55 PM

I was talking about the tablet UX, not the netbook one.

Ah, sorry about that. I suspect that since there's no MeeGo image yet, it'll be released alongside an image (much like the next N900 release later this month) at the same site as the links I posted.

qgil

06-11-2010, 01:15 AM

I saw some very convincing videos and pictures about the MeeGo tablet user experience.

Hi, this thread is about making MeeGo-Harmattan to run in the N900. If you want to discuss the MeeGo Tablet UX a good place is the Tablet forum at forum.meego.com (http://forum.meego.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8).

Venemo

06-11-2010, 05:35 AM

Hi, this thread is about making MeeGo-Harmattan to run in the N900. If you want to discuss the MeeGo Tablet UX a good place is the Tablet forum at forum.meego.com (http://forum.meego.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8).

Sorry, I got a little confused with the names...
But thanks for the link!

depu

06-11-2010, 02:30 PM

fatalsaint

06-11-2010, 02:32 PM

Since Meego-Harmattan isnt an officially supported platform on the N900, can someone confirm if we can dual boot a Maemo 5 and the Meego-Harmattan system?

As much as i would like a Meego System running on my N900 i would like to have a fully (or semi) functional(Maps and other Nokia closed source apps) handheld device for occasional use.

Meego-Harmattan doesn't even really exist yet. It's all theory to this point. So the firm answer is unknown.

However, I would find it very likely that someone figures out how to dual boot pretty much any of the 3 OS's being worked on (M5, MeeGo and MH).

Jaffa

06-13-2010, 09:01 AM

In short, this thread is about creating a Hacker/Community edition for the N900 of the OS and apps that Nokia will ship in the first device based on MeeGo.

Will the infrastructure which was worked on/designed for Mer's images be available here? (i.e. to allow closed source stuff to be combined and shipped)

Let's assume some form of MeeGo Core and Handset UX is working on the N900. Your comment above suggests not taking the MeeGo reference apps for phone calls, conversation etc. (assuming there are some); but taking the Harmattan Nokia apps for those tasks?

If I'm understanding correctly, getting them running with a copy of a Harmattan device's OS is a different question to making such a hybrid MeeGo/Harmattan image distributable to users.

w00t

06-13-2010, 09:21 AM

Let's assume some form of MeeGo Core and Handset UX is working on the N900. Your comment above suggests not taking the MeeGo reference apps for phone calls, conversation etc. (assuming there are some); but taking the Harmattan Nokia apps for those tasks?

The two are different tasks, are they not?

A fully open MeeGo image is going to be different from Harmattan, which is likely to be much more like M5 than MeeGo - full of closed Nokia apps like maps.

That's what I was assuming this thread was discussing, at least..

Jaffa

06-13-2010, 09:40 AM

A fully open MeeGo image is going to be different from Harmattan, which is likely to be much more like M5 than MeeGo - full of closed Nokia apps like maps.

That's what I was assuming this thread was discussing, at least..

That what I assumed too. So, my point was "if a community supported release is viable, how will it be distributed?"; with a side-point of "what's the base OS onto which said Nokia bits would be closed, the full Harmattan stack or MeeGo (or even Fremantle)?"

w00t

06-13-2010, 09:58 AM

That what I assumed too. So, my point was "if a community supported release is viable, how will it be distributed?"; with a side-point of "what's the base OS onto which said Nokia bits would be closed, the full Harmattan stack or MeeGo (or even Fremantle)?"

OK, I see your point now.

I'd *guess* that at least to start with, it'll be Harmattan itself. Trying to port closed applications either backwards (to Fremantle) or forward (to MeeGo) is probably going to involve headaches.

Hopefully, it will be possible, though, as I'd quite like the idea of being able to shoehorn the useful closed bits of Harmattan into MeeGo, purely for the possibility to have a more up to date, futureproof base system.

(for third party app developers/appstores, they won't really be keeping Harmattan compatibility in mind, I think.. so there will be a time when, regardless of how nice Harmattan is as a base system, you'll want to migrate)

qgil

06-13-2010, 04:08 PM

This is about making MeeGo-Harmattan (deb based, including Nokia closed apps) in the N900. The very same MeeGo-Harmattan that will run on the new devices shipping this OS out of the box. Any difference should be based on a technical compromise. It should be ABI compatible with MeeGo-Harmattan so the same binaries in Ovi Store and Extras would be installable and functional.

How exactly will it be distributed? I don't know at this point. Tero and Carsten are the ones to have the initiative.

sytheii

06-23-2010, 02:19 AM

HI,

I got my N900 about a week ago, and although I did not do a lot of research about support or continued development prior to purchasing it, I did do some, and for the most part I felt satisfied that I got a good phone.

I went ahead and read this entire thread to try to understand what is happening with its development, and to try to see if I had bought the wrong device. I'll be honest at first I was a little worried, but after continuing to read, and reading all of this thread on hardware adaptation (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53571), for the moment it looks like i will still be satisfied, depending on how this MeeGo-Harmattan project works out.

One aspect of the phone I did not like at first was the lack of more portrait mode support, which I had mentioned in this thread (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=56480) and had asked about its status as under development, and I am assuming that the work that will be done making MeeGo-Harmattan usable for the N900 will incorporate something like what I had imagined based on what i read here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=56410). I also assumed the reason why no-one was replying to the thread I was commenting on is because this is in the works...

In any-case, I thank everyone that Is making this possible from both sides, and really appreciate the forum community, and the hard work/good comments that has/have gone into this thread in particular. It really was a good read, as strange as that sounds.

I don't know exactly how I could contribute or help in this endeavor, but I'm willing to do anything. I've got lots of bandwidth, enough free time to read a 21 page long thread :) , and some very limited knowledge of programing, which after getting this phone I might want to expand, and a will to help, so....count me in.

qgil

06-23-2010, 04:01 AM

Hi, welcome!

I don't know exactly how I could contribute or help in this endeavor, but I'm willing to do anything.

1. Get familiar and involved in the discussion here and in the MeeGo Handset forum: http://forum.meego.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7

2. Download and install in your N900 MeeGo 1.1 unstable with the Handset UX when it is released.

3. Test and file bugs, specially about the underlying functionality (if MeeGo-Harmattan is your main target, otherwise feedback about the reference apps is welcome too).

4. Get the MeeGo updates, feel the progress, put your stress in the annoying platform bugs still open.

5. Wait for official MeeGo-Harmattan announcements and releases. Not much can be done about the MeeGo-Harmattan apps before their code/binaries are out.

These are steps that any N900 user with some time and patience can follow, hopefully while keeping their Maemo 5 stable intact in the device.

If you want to learn and improve as a developer a good entry point is to join a Maemo 5 community project you like and offer your help porting it to MeeGo or MeeGo-Harmattan. This might help you finding more bugs and rough edges in the underlying platforms, which is very good feedback for platform and application developers at this point.

Also important: enjoy the Summer! :)

dieg

06-23-2010, 04:11 AM

We're waiting to the N900 MeeGo 1.1 unstable with Handset UX release to begin filling bug reports :)

maxximuscool

06-23-2010, 04:12 AM

would you pay a little to the developer who porting MeeGo to N900?

My answer is Yes!

I suggest setting up a site for community MeeGo N900. And I would happily pay some cash toward the project or may be buy a copy of the .img :) file

I believe we can do it safe and still open. Otherwise we can do it like Ovi

naturegodtm

06-23-2010, 03:50 PM

i would pay up to 30 euroes for the meego release

sytheii

06-23-2010, 11:54 PM

5. Wait for official MeeGo-Harmattan announcements and releases. Not much can be done about the MeeGo-Harmattan apps before their code/binaries are out.

...

If you want to learn and improve as a developer a good entry point is to join a Maemo 5 community project you like and offer your help porting it to MeeGo or MeeGo-Harmattan. This might help you finding more bugs and rough edges in the underlying platforms, which is very good feedback for platform and application developers at this point.

Also important: enjoy the Summer! :)

Gotcha. Well, I'll be around looking at what is being said, and offer my input, i registered over at meego as well.

You say "join a maemo 5 community project," and help "porting it to MeeGo or Meego-Harmattan." Do you mean, after the Meego-Harmatan reaches its first stage, test it along with whatever the project might be as it runs in Meego-Harmattan? I think I understood that correctly...but maybe not.

Also...this may sound like the kind of question that should not be asked here, and will also sound very over-ambitious, but I will anyway...

What, if any, resources, like books or things online, could I read to learn more about making apps for the N900, and should I even try to get into this seeing as Meego-Harmattan might very well, uh...replace(?) maemo 5?

thanks.

Pp Tools

06-24-2010, 12:04 AM

HellFlyer

06-24-2010, 12:30 AM

01 .- any cheap cell has the ability to assign different ringtones for incoming calls to discriminate, but the cel n900 with all their technology, do not have that function, all calls ring the same tone. How can discriminate calls from these numbers that continually call you and you do not wish to answer? 02 .- contemporary models of nokia, n95 and 5800 and, I know that have the ability to edit the label of each number stored in a contact, so you can define for example, if the contact has three mobile numbers from different companies, with different benefits, what company is for each issue and not be guessing which number is which company. the n900 does not. I am a simple user, who will be the hero to resolve these shortcomings?
j_silva_l@live.com

The thread name is N900 community support for the MeeGo-Harmattan release from Nokia its not the place to complain about N900 or Maemo 5. Go to offtopic section and post your concerns there.

If you want to help in some way contribute by testing don't disturb others who are willing to make things better

on topic:\

I want to install MeeGo 1.1 on June 30 and test it but I need Maemo 5 to be there as well , unless its dualboot I wont take the risk

eiraku

06-24-2010, 12:47 AM

Seconded on the dualboot thing.

qgil

06-24-2010, 05:09 AM

You say "join a maemo 5 community project," and help "porting it to MeeGo or Meego-Harmattan." Do you mean, after the Meego-Harmatan reaches its first stage, test it along with whatever the project might be as it runs in Meego-Harmattan?

(...)

What, if any, resources, like books or things online, could I read to learn more about making apps for the N900, and should I even try to get into this seeing as Meego-Harmattan might very well, uh...replace(?) maemo 5?

MeeGo puts the stress on Qt for application developers and Maemo 5 supports Qt officially now, so there is nothing really replacing.

What to learn depends on what do you know, what do you want to do and what are you willing to learn. :) A good recommendation for starters in mobile development willing to see fast progress and a promising future is Qt Quick. This link should be good enough for now: http://doc.trolltech.org/4.7-snapshot/declarativeui.html

But of course what to learn depends also on the project you choose, if you decide to contribute to an ongoing project.

sytheii

06-25-2010, 05:19 AM

MeeGo puts the stress on Qt for application developers and Maemo 5 supports Qt officially now, so there is nothing really replacing.

What to learn depends on what do you know, what do you want to do and what are you willing to learn. :) A good recommendation for starters in mobile development willing to see fast progress and a promising future is Qt Quick. This link should be good enough for now: http://doc.trolltech.org/4.7-snapshot/declarativeui.html

But of course what to learn depends also on the project you choose, if you decide to contribute to an ongoing project.

Cool! Thanks for the response. Now I have a starting point :) Can't wait to see what kind of changes will be in store once MeeGo gets sorted out, and now I have at least a starting point to delve into a new hobby :)

aliulazeem

06-26-2010, 03:02 PM

Hi.. i am not a geek.. so i really donno much abt phones, but since i heard abt meego feature i want it so badly... i say some videos on you tube regarding the installation of some features of meego "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1hI1BI_Ua8&feature=related"

now my question is is this process in safe??? or in near future is there any ray oh hope that we will get meego firmware update on our nokia n900?

sytheii

06-30-2010, 02:22 PM

2. Download and install in your N900 MeeGo 1.1 unstable with the Handset UX when it is released.

So...i guess the MeeGo alpha is out...should I follow instructions I found here?

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=57485

to load it on my phone and start testing? or is that even possible at this point? It would be nice if I could keep maemo 5 and test MeeGo (Ideally dual booting)...since it is stable. Still...slightly confused bout what to do next...any input qgil?

qgil

06-30-2010, 03:36 PM

sytheii - enjoy the day / evening and let the dust settle. Hopefully instructions to get MeeGo 1.1 Handset UX will be available, even leaving your Maemo 5 default installation untouched.

spueredich

08-01-2010, 04:10 AM

sytheii - enjoy the day / evening and let the dust settle. Hopefully instructions to get MeeGo 1.1 Handset UX will be available, even leaving your Maemo 5 default installation untouched.

:confused: @qgil: is this thread just finished? I'm still waiting for the progress of how Harmattan software can be installed on N900.

Stskeeps

08-01-2010, 04:45 AM

:confused: @qgil: is this thread just finished? I'm still waiting for the progress of how Harmattan software can be installed on N900.

For now, nothing about Harmattan can be done or analyzed until some of the SDK's are out. For now, it's actually best to work on MeeGo (.com) for N900 and test - same code banging the hardware bits.

spueredich

08-01-2010, 05:08 AM

For now, nothing about Harmattan can be done or analyzed until some of the SDK's are out. For now, it's actually best to work on MeeGo (.com) for N900 and test - same code banging the hardware bits.

:o Thanks, Stskeeps.

By the way, what's the rule of game? Is Harmattan a public software platform of Meego that Nokia will publish SDK? I'm really confused with the concept of Maemo, Meego, Harmattan.

N900=Maemo 5
Meego=Maemo 6
Harmattan = Maemo 6 + new hardware + new UI?

As this evolves, will Meego = Harmattan?

Sorry for so many questions

attila77

08-01-2010, 06:38 AM

spueredich

08-01-2010, 08:37 AM

Close but no cigar. I will expand this a bit.

N900 = Maemo 5 = Fremantle = Maemo Core + Fremantle UI
N9 (?) = Maemo 6 = Harmattan = Maemo Core + Harmattan UI + MeeGo compatibility layer
MeeGo = MeeGo Core + reference UX (no vendor ships this and is this probably not the one you want)
The next Nokia MeeGo device = MeeGo Core + (Harmattan + 1) UI
This thread = Harmattan-meets-N900-but-has-no-specific-name = MeeGo Core + Harmattan UI

In other news - it would be really-really cool to hear something about the Harmattan SDK, it was supposed to be 2010Q1, we're now Q3, and even though I know MeeGo caused a stir *some* info about what's going on would be welcome.

Thanks, Attila77! I still have one question:
What's the relationship between Maemo6 and Meego? I assume Meego should be compatible with Maemo, ( other we wouldn't have been able to install Meego on an N900 ).

As time passes by, new release of Meego should also be based on new version of Maemo, right?

theflew

08-01-2010, 09:02 AM

Thanks, Attila77! I still have one question:
What's the relationship between Maemo6 and Meego? I assume Meego should be compatible with Maemo, ( other we wouldn't have been able to install Meego on an N900 ).

As time passes by, new release of Meego should also be based on new version of Maemo, right?

Maemo 6 is a transitional release. Basically Nokia was way down the road with Maemo 6 development when the MeeGo "merge" happened. Nokia could either delay the next phone or release what they had already started working on since last year. MeeGo 1.1 will not be available until October and that's about the same time the next Nokia device is rumored to be out. So you have Maemo 6 compatible with MeeGo. The next OS provided by Nokia will be MeeGo with Nokia customizations.

s.khiwani

08-02-2010, 12:14 PM

Hey Guys,

I'm new to this website along with this I'm new with my N900 device though I have done some changes in Firmware like flashing with 900Mhz and changing Maemo Indian OS to Global OS.

But I'm very much interested for Meego.. can any one tell is there any official release and image for installing Meego for user end.

and is Maemo PR1.2 is release my software Version is 10.2010.19-1

Please do reply on this..

Thanks & Regards
Sahil

scribbles

08-02-2010, 07:28 PM

Maemo 6 is a transitional release. Basically Nokia was way down the road with Maemo 6 development when the MeeGo "merge" happened.

Very true... I remember right before the N900 was released, I had read on Twitter from Phonedog Noah where Jussi Makinen was giving a demo of the Maemo 5 UI and inadvertently said, "Wait until you see Maemo 6, it will blow this out of the water...". My thought is that it's not very cool when the phone you're demoing isn't even out yet. I just thought it was very strange for him to say that.

imperiallight

08-02-2010, 07:30 PM

Very true... I remember right before the N900 was released, I had read on Twitter from Phonedog Noah where Jussi Makinen was giving a demo of the Maemo 5 UI and inadvertently said, "Wait until you see Maemo 6, it will blow this out of the water...". My thought is that it's not very cool when the phone you're demoing isn't even out yet. I just thought it was very strange for him to say that.

I thought it was rather silly also. Shame we will never see it, or maybe not.

spueredich

08-03-2010, 04:55 AM

attila77

08-04-2010, 05:40 AM

fw190

08-04-2010, 05:59 AM

I would give it a go. Its much more eatable for ordinary people like me!

RogueElement

08-05-2010, 03:55 PM

Perhaps Quil and his co-workers can at least post the odd link to new developments. The N900 is a class phone and I'm sure will have a Meego OS soon. The Meego widgets gallery download shows constant upgrades and development and has a Meego Theme (not activaTed yet though).
Lets see what develops, I for one am interested.....

maemo5

08-12-2010, 08:40 AM

maybe the developers of meego for n900
can add more things..........

HD playback......recording

1GHZ kernel

better battery life

fatalsaint

08-12-2010, 11:41 AM

1GHZ kernel

How would developers be able to change everyones hardware??? :confused:

qgil

08-12-2010, 02:23 PM

Am I the only one who finds the name "N900 community support for the MeeGo-Harmattan release from Nokia" a mouthful and fairly non-descriptive for people new to Maemo/MeeGo ? How about giving it at least a shorter name ? Maybe MeeGo-Harmattan HE in the tradition of Hacker Editions of OS2007HE and OS2008HE ?

Changed as per request.

Status update: this project is on hold until a first release of MeeGo-Harmattan (let me insist: provisional name) is published.

We are working on the fixes required for this first release to go out:

- MeeGo Handset unstable releases @ meego.com go first. It would be confusing and unfair if a MeeGo-Harmattan SDK release would include components that are meant to be in MeeGo but we haven't opened them yet. We are still opening components and integrating them to MeeGo almost on a weekly basis.

- The "based on MeeGo" also needs to be clear and in line with the MeeGo project and the Linux Foundation, owner of the MeeGo trademark. Having a first release ignoring this point would be also confusing and unfair. This step depends on the definition of the MeeGo Compliance, which is still a work-in-progress.

You will hear more about MeeGo-Harmattan unstable releases probably when these points are in a mature/done state.

maluka

08-12-2010, 03:39 PM

Changed as per request.

Status update: this project is on hold until a first release of MeeGo-Harmattan (let me insist: provisional name) is published.

We are working on the fixes required for this first release to go out:

- MeeGo Handset unstable releases @ meego.com go first. It would be confusing and unfair if a MeeGo-Harmattan SDK release would include components that are meant to be in MeeGo but we haven't opened them yet. We are still opening components and integrating them to MeeGo almost on a weekly basis.

- The "based on MeeGo" also needs to be clear and in line with the MeeGo project and the Linux Foundation, owner of the MeeGo trademark. Having a first release ignoring this point would be also confusing and unfair. This step depends on the definition of the MeeGo Compliance, which is still a work-in-progress.

You will hear more about MeeGo-Harmattan unstable releases probably when these points are in a mature/done state.

Why don't we call the hacker edition MeeGmo?

attila77

08-12-2010, 06:57 PM

Changed as per request.
Status update: this project is on hold until a first release of MeeGo-Harmattan (let me insist: provisional name) is published.

Thank you, then we will (provisionally, of course) refer to it as MeeGo-Harmattan HE, until the actual name is published, when we will apply the same naming scheme - [final name] HE (and ask moderators to change the topic name yet again :) )

jebba

08-16-2010, 01:31 PM

We are still opening components and integrating them to MeeGo almost on a weekly basis.

Really? What was closed in Maemo that has been opened for MeeGo?

buurmas

08-18-2010, 01:39 PM

Some recent, relevant commentary by Stskeeps here:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=789387&postcount=255

qgil

08-20-2010, 02:14 AM

Really? What was closed in Maemo that has been opened for MeeGo?

Fair question. I will find the information and post it. In my ToDo.

In the meantime, you can check at http://meego.gitorious.org

w00t

08-20-2010, 02:19 AM

Really? What was closed in Maemo that has been opened for MeeGo?

Buteo (sync solution) sounds like one such component, recent talk implied that it was designed for Harmattan and is now being opened (code & development) for use with MeeGo.

[yes, technically it was never part of a Maemo release, but... point stands: releasing it closed and then opening it is a bit silly compared with opening it to start with]

See: http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-middleware

jebba

08-20-2010, 06:11 PM

We are still opening components and integrating them to MeeGo almost on a weekly basis.

Really? What was closed in Maemo that has been opened for MeeGo?

(Buteo) yes, technically it was never part of a Maemo release, but... point stands: releasing it closed and then opening it is a bit silly compared with opening it to start with

Yes, so it doesn't really sound like something that was closed in Maemo that was opened for MeeGo then, no?

I'm curious about the things being opened and integrated on a "weekly" basis.

They are also keeping the battery closed for MeeGo. Totally lame.

alcockell

08-31-2010, 03:56 AM

As an end-user... will there be an official upgrade path from Maemo to Meego - or will Nokia backport some of the key components as an official update?

For one - I'd like to be able ot use Java web apps in the same way as I can on my netbook.

Jaffa

08-31-2010, 04:17 AM

As an end-user... will there be an official upgrade path from Maemo to Meego - or will Nokia backport some of the key components as an official update?

No. However there'll be an unofficial upgrade path. It remains to be seen if it will be a realistic day-to-day option for most (or, indeed, any) users.

For one - I'd like to be able ot use Java web apps in the same way as I can on my netbook.

What makes you think that Harmattan, or - for that matter - MeeGo's Handset UX, will have a Java applet plugin in the browser? Certainly Nokia only view C++/Qt and WRT as the strategic, and supported, platforms.