MeeGo hardware adaptation for N900

[harrihakulinen]

Hello Maemos & MeeGos,

It seems that the true nature of MeeGo has not really been understood by many, or if it is, people still like to create wrong kind of fuss, and use the name MeeGo in wrong way.

In very simple words; please do not mix MeeGo and Nokia productized software !

1. MeeGo is open source project.

2. Nokia as founding member of MeeGo project is using N900 as the ARM reference platform of MeeGo at the moment. This means that we have an active project that focuses to MeeGo hardware adaptation for N900.

( 1. and 2. together actually mean, that there will be MeeGo for N900, if someone is interested .. )

The goal of that project is to open as much N900 specifig drivers as possible in MeeGo scope. Our work is currently well supported by many internal and external people, so in fact we have much larger project team than what is described in our wiki page. Based on that I am very confident to say that MeeGo on N900 will be more open than Maemo has been so far, and it will truly be an open source mobile os in N900.

There are wiki pages for the project at http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900

From the wiki you can find information how MeeGo runs, and will run on N900. There are also links to mailing lists, IRC channels, code repositories & all. On the other words, N900 hardware adaptation project is an open project already, as well as the whole MeeGo project will soon be.

MeeGo project is preparing to launch 1.0 release in May, and after that continue development towards 1.1 release. May release will NOT contain mobile UX yet, but it is expected to be added to development versions soon after 1.0 release.

In N900 HW adaptation there is 2 problematic components that we are NOT planning to open as such; the other is BME, battery management entity from Nokia, and the other is OpenGLES implementation from SGX. You can use the device without openGLES, if you don't care about HW accelerated 3D features. Without the BME the device is practically useless.

(Fully functional MeeGo images containing those closed components will also be provided, thanks for asking..)

The reasoning of that situation has been discussed at least in meego-devel mailing list and in N900 hardware adaptation IRC meetings. For BME we will try to find a way to enable open source activity around it, if there are interested people to work on that. Most likely, Nokia as company will not be able participate to that kind of open activity if it will start.

This thread is meant for discussion around MeeGo hardware adaptation for N900, as much as you want to discuss about that in maemo.org. However, I would recommend to switch towards meego.com resources, and participate to technical work there.

We are also pretty busy with the said work at the moment, so please bear us if you don't get complete answers to your questions in short time.

Br,
//Harri

[BLIZZARD]

Is there any possibility that ,someday..., we will have a fully working meego including BME and GPU support?

[johnel]

I'd say without openGLES and BME the port is useless.

What is the point of continuing without these components working?

[harrihakulinen]

Is there any possibility that ,someday..., we will have a fully working meego including BME and GPU support?

Of course there will be fully functional MeeGo also for N900.

There will be several images available, also one including fully functional BME and GPU support. Those are just included as closed components.

Most Linux distributions contain some closed components to support different kinds of hardware, and I expect that those kind of limited closed components will be available in some MeeGo images as well.

ps. MeeGo 1.0 will be bit limited in N900, as we are just porting many N900 specifig drivers for new kernels. But we will improve all the time.

Br,
//Harri

[jaysire]

Thanks Harri, for the refreshing "no-bull$hit" and "no-beating-around-the-bushes" straight answers. That's all anyone can ask for: one simple answer to the question every (non developer) has been asking: Will there be a community installable version of Meego for the N900?

To which you just answered "yes", so thank you for that. Let's just all stop the rumors and disinfo (that internet citizens love to call FUD) and just point straight back to Harri's message in the future. There WILL be a Meego image that we can all install on the N900.

[johnel]

Most Linux distributions contain some closed components to support different kinds of hardware, and I expect that those kind of limited closed components will be available in some MeeGo images as well.


But this causes many problems too.

For example, ATI considered some of their previous cards as legacy. As a result decent 3D acceleration is not accessible to people with the latest version of XORG and the Linux kernel.
Sure there are open source equivalents but the 3D performance is dreadful compared to the ATI binaries.

Similar thing with WIFI drivers too.

One of the original strengths of a Linux-based system is that it works on an enormous amount of hardware.
Closed source binaries are receding this benefit.

I understand the MeeGo team are working hard and doing a great job - I'm very, very grateful for that.

[slender]

Thank you Harri for these answers! I have read tons of marketing-bullsht from Nokia people where they try to say much but eventually manage to say nothing, basically: "We have foundation and this is amazing, this is amazing, this is open source OMG". I do not say names but just read blogs, watch videos and of course talk.maemo.

This is exactly kind of communication from Nokia what IMO this community needs more so that we can truly to establish good link between Nokia and maemo.org.

[twigleaf1976]

To which you just answered "yes", so thank you for that. Let's just all stop the rumors and disinfo (that internet citizens love to call FUD) and just point straight back to Harri's message in the future. There WILL be a Meego image that we can all install on the N900.

Read this and the link inside it
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=674858#post674858

Does that sound like they are officially going to support the N900 with Meego? There might be an image, but it won't be a Nokia image.

[eitama]

Read this and the link inside it
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=674858#post674858

Does that sound like they are officially going to support the N900 with Meego? There might be an image, but it won't be a Nokia image.

Personally, I don't care if it's a nokia image or meego.com image.
As long there will be a meego image, I can install on my N900, which will allow me to install apps from repos, ovi store, make calls, play games and enjoy the nokia meego UI, i'll be satisfied.
Who know, maybe I'll even have 3g video calls!

[felbutss]

wow. nokia should do this more often. it makes u guys more human.


thanks

[Dunsurfin]

This is the type of thread I come to this community to read. Thank you Harri.

I know you and your team are busy, but could you consider adding a native integrated spellchecker to MeeGo? Being able to spellcheck e-mail, IM and notes as you type (as well as posts to the Web) is something that should be part of the core OS.

Please continue to post, this community needs to be able to have a meaningful conversation with Nokia.

[bsving]

This is fantastic. There will be MeeGo on the N900, and Nokia will practically develop it for us. MeeGo is open source, and we will get a "reference" version that can be modded and hacked by the community. In addition closed HW drivers will be available.

Of course we also have Maemo PR1.2 that is virtually source code compatible with MeeGo apps.

Time to stop whining and be happy :) Nokia has delivered something, and much more, and much greater, than any phone manufacturer (incl Nokia) has ever done. Yesterday I was sure I would get a N8, not anymore :)

[kojacker]

Thanks Harri, I'm really pleased you are Nokia project lead in this project as it gives me a lot of confidence in it being done and done right. As always, your comments and updates are very informative and very welcome.

[tekojo]

I know you and your team are busy, but could you consider adding a native integrated spellchecker to MeeGo? Being able to spellcheck e-mail, IM and notes as you type (as well as posts to the Web) is something that should be part of the core OS.

That is more of a feature request toward the MeeGo project. A good place to raise issues like this is the MeeGo-dev [http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-dev] mailing list .

[jacktanner]

Regarding OpenGLES implementation from SGX:

Even if it's closed source, is it licensed in such a way that allows its redistribution as part of community-supported MeeGo releases?

What are its dependencies, and how will the community be able to carry this binary blob forward, maintaining compatibility with the evolving platform?

[Stskeeps]

Regarding OpenGLES implementation from SGX:

Even if it's closed source, is it licensed in such a way that allows its redistribution as part of community-supported MeeGo releases?

What are its dependencies, and how will the community be able to carry this binary blob forward, maintaining compatibility with the evolving platform?

There's Nokians participating in this team and they can provide these things through a tablets-dev.nokia.com repository. Keep in mind that Nokia didn't say 'we aren't putting resources towards the MeeGo on N900 hardware adaptation team'. It isn't just community, it's MeeGo project doing this. Which, as you can remember, has Intel and Nokia as backers.

They said 'no commercial support', which is meant as no, you can't call Nokia Care about your problems with it and it isn't a Nokia product. That the adaptation will technically work quite well, is another thing.. :)

[harrihakulinen]

Regarding OpenGLES implementation from SGX:

Even if it's closed source, is it licensed in such a way that allows its redistribution as part of community-supported MeeGo releases?

What are its dependencies, and how will the community be able to carry this binary blob forward, maintaining compatibility with the evolving platform?

We are currently serving that and other closed blobs from Nokia repository at tablets-dev.nokia.com , so at least that will be available also later.

We are discussing about lisence model with TI at the moment, as that piece of sw is lisenced via them for OMAP hw. I don't want to speculate what the end result of those talks will be, but we do know the problem that you are talking about.

As far as understand, it only depends on kernel driver that in turn is open source, so it should be relatively easy to maintain also in the future.

Br,
//Harri

[geohsia]

So what does this mean for other closed source components like OVI Maps and Skype and Microbrowser (Flash 10.1). Will those be part of this community supported adaptation?

[torshind]

Thank you guys, great news.

[harrihakulinen]

So what does this mean for other closed source components like OVI Maps and Skype and Microbrowser (Flash 10.1). Will those be part of this community supported adaptation?

It is not completely clear, what is the best way to integrate these kind of 3rd party closed applications. MeeGo project itself is supposed to work only on open source, and we are trying to emphasize that at least now.

Community can of course decide that it make's sense to offer a way or another to integrate these, or to provide nice and smart application installer also for closed apps or something.

However, I expect that all of the companies behind of the mentioned closed sw applications are also interested to help in the integration process ..

Br,
//Harri

[geohsia]

It is not completely clear, what is the best way to integrate these kind of 3rd party closed applications. MeeGo project itself is supposed to work only on open source, and we are trying to emphasize that at least now.
//Harri

Thanks for the reply. I don't meant to be argumentative or critical, but what would the point of the MeeGo adaptation be if there's no useful browser, navigation and video integration?

By the way I am assuming that other closed source core apps like phone, media player, file manager and camera will still be made available somehow right? Or will they be made open source?

Sorry if I'm being dense I'm not quite sure what is being provided in community edition MeeGo (Harmattan).

[Stskeeps]

Thanks for the reply. I don't meant to be argumentative or critical, but what would the point of the MeeGo adaptation be if there's no useful browser, navigation and video integration?

Keep in mind that the topic of this thread is 'hardware adaptation'.

Normally a MeeGo installation you'd get from a vendor is consisting of four pieces:

MeeGo Core, a hardware adaptation (drivers, configuration files for hardware, firmware, etc), a MeeGo UX (for example Handset) and optionally vendor provided applications, plugins, app stores, etc.

The things discussed here is hardware adaptation, which together with Core provides the ability for the device to run MeeGo.

That said, MeeGo UX's should come with some reference applications. Examples could be (I have no idea if they're there), file managers, calculators, etc. For example, Netbook UX has Chrome as browser.

[resplendent2209]

Thanks Harri, your post should put an end to all the ridiculous speculations about Meego and N900.

Thanks for porting Meego to N900. Couldn't have asked for more.

Keep up the good work.

Appreciated!

Would be good if you could visit the forum biweekly and post the updates on the "Meego to N900" project.

Thanks once again.

Kudos for you and your team for working so hard!

Now this is the Nokia I know of ;)

[Laughing Man]

Personally, I don't care if it's a nokia image or meego.com image.
As long there will be a meego image, I can install on my N900, which will allow me to install apps from repos, ovi store, make calls, play games and enjoy the nokia meego UI, i'll be satisfied.
Who know, maybe I'll even have 3g video calls!

Yeah...I wouldn't count on the Nokia Meego UI. Not sure about Ovi Store either.

[geohsia]

The things discussed here is hardware adaptation, which together with Core provides the ability for the device to run MeeGo.

That said, MeeGo UX's should come with some reference applications. Examples could be (I have no idea if they're there), file managers, calculators, etc. For example, Netbook UX has Chrome as browser.

I see, its starting to become clear. So the May release of Meego regardless of hardware does not linclude the Meego UX which will be released later.

It would be interesting to have a similar but separate Meego UX thread so that we can understand what Meego UX components that Nokia plans on making available.

Sounds like this (the hardware adaptation) is the first step of many to having a useful Meego experience on the N900.

[resplendent2209]

It would be interesting to have a similar but separate Meego UX thread so that we can understand what Meego UX components that Nokia plans on making available.

+++1. Do we have anyone from Nokia here to shed light on this?

[jacktanner]

It would be interesting to have a similar but separate Meego UX thread so that we can understand what Meego UX components that Nokia plans on making available.

On a related note, is there a listing of *Maemo* UX components? We need to understand
- which of them we can reuse under MeeGo, either as binary blobs or as open source
- which we cannot reuse (e.g., due to license restrictions or known incompatibility with MeeGo), and which will need to be reimplemented by the community

[harrihakulinen]

Thanks for the reply. I don't meant to be argumentative or critical, but what would the point of the MeeGo adaptation be if there's no useful browser, navigation and video integration?

By the way I am assuming that other closed source core apps like phone, media player, file manager and camera will still be made available somehow right? Or will they be made open source?

Sorry if I'm being dense I'm not quite sure what is being provided in community edition MeeGo (Harmattan).

Like Carsten said, this is bit off topic for this thread, please use eg. the one started by Quim in sticky ones.

I will only say that generally this kind things should be done based on policies decided by MeeGo project and active members there. Right now I am not aware of such MeeGo policy, but likely some other people are discussing those for MeeGo 1.0 as we speak ..

These kind of things will evolve via trial & error kind of way as well.

Br,
//Harri

[harrihakulinen]

On a related note, is there a listing of *Maemo* UX components? We need to understand
- which of them we can reuse under MeeGo, either as binary blobs or as open source
- which we cannot reuse (e.g., due to license restrictions or known incompatibility with MeeGo), and which will need to be reimplemented by the community

For all of you that are interested about mobile UX:

This is also mostly off topic for this thread, and I would advise you to wait couple of days, so we can have meaningful discussion about it. Right now we are not supposed to discuss about it, and we really don't have enough time either.

I will only say, that you will be positively surprised in many ways, even though that is not really any surprise for people that are following what happens out there.

Br,
//Harri

[qgil]

The project discussed here is about open source meego.com releases running in the N900, pure or with some binary compromises in the hardware adaptation layer.

Please don't bug his team with questions about Ovi, Skype, Flash etc. The good thread for this is N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53551).

Thank you!

[atilla]

so can we get flash 10 with meego?

[wmarone]

so can we get flash 10 with meego?

Maybe if you buy a device. I suspect that, like the other non-Open parts of Android, it'll be missing when Cyanogen releases his versions of Android 2.2. I expect the same will be true for community releases of MeeGo for the N900, unless Adobe decides to be benevolent.

Thus the problem with Flash. Perhaps we should look into making Gnash not suck?

[qgil]

Maybe you just missed my post...

so can we get flash 10 with meego?

The project discussed here is about open source meego.com releases running in the N900, pure or with some binary compromises in the hardware adaptation layer.

Please don't bug his team with questions about Ovi, Skype, Flash etc. The good thread for this is N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53551).

Thank you!

[Optln]

The MeeGo Core (RPM based system, formerly known as Moblin) + Nokia N900 hardware adaptation. In due time, MeeGo Core + hardware adaptation + Handset UX (from MeeGo project).

Are we able to use a desktop environment with the first release, like the recent MeeGo release for vehicles? It contained Xfce IIRC. And are you in position to explain what "due time" means, is it like weeks or months :) .

[6sicSIX]

I'm probably talking crap, but,
Meego will run in some way as it is being developed on the N900, yes?
The main problem is the resistive screen?
If, say, a third party company were to make a drop in replacement capacitive screen, I'm assuming that the hardware could take it as it's the same as the iCrap.
I know nothing about development, but how hard would it be to modify the screen driver? What about the milestone driver?

[wmarone]

If, say, a third party company were to make a drop in replacement capacitive screen, I'm assuming that the hardware could take it as it's the same as the iCrap.
I know nothing about development, but how hard would it be to modify the screen driver? What about the milestone driver?

Capacitive screens require a special controller chip, not just a driver. You'd have to either redesign the board or go blue-wire crazy to rewire things as they are.

[6sicSIX]

Damn there goes that plan lol, but I thought the n900 used the exact same chipset..?

[HellFlyer]

http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.0/core/images/meego-n900-open-armv7l/



So UI version of MeeGo is avaiable already?

Can we install it :D ?

[kingoddball]

That release is CLI/Terminal only.

You can install it, highly unrecommended!

Try dual boot.

[qgil]

And are you in position to explain what "due time" means, is it like weeks or months :) .

Harri's team has to wait for this:

with the development of the MeeGo Handset user experience moving to the open in June.

http://meego.com/community/blogs/imad/2010/meego-v1.0-core-software-platform-netbook-user-experience-project-release

[6sicSIX]

Serial / Usb capacitive screen on top of the resistive?

[gabby131]

it says meego is now available for n900 to download. will i need to get another n900 if i wish to keep maemo 5 software?

or does it need to be double boot?

[harrihakulinen]

About MeeGo 1.0 Core release for N900

It does NOT include

- Mobile UI/UX (N900 will boot to Xterm)
- Reference Applications

It is intended for MeeGo developers for development purposes, and

- has practically NO value for end users
- has little value for MeeGo application developers.

Please do NOT install it if you don't know what you need it for.

For mor in formation, pls. see
http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900

Br,
//Harri

[lanwellon]

Gooooooooooooooood News !

Finally, I can use MeeGo on N900.

Hope you can support to MeeGo 1.1 or 1.2.

Maemo is great, hope MeeGo can do better !

[S0urcerr0r]

[Answered Question about Hardware Adaption]

Will you implement multitouch emulation by combining proximity sensor and screen gestures?
ANSWER: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=50763&page=7

(This seems like the appropriate place for this post, for anyone who missed that question... it would be nice if others could add similarly answered questions about hardware adaption, from other threads)

[Radicalz38]

What would happen to meego if nokia would start releasing intel driven mobile devices? Would the applications of meego x86 be backwards compatible to those with meego ARM chips?

[flailingmonkey]

Radicalz38: There is no "backwards" involved, all meego programs will run on all ARM and x86 platforms. That's the whole point of making the MeeGo platform in the first place.

[felbutss]

ccyyaaaaa. No meego from nokia that is shocking lol.

hello Meego Hackers addition from community. Will help and contribute all I can to its development.

[Radicalz38]

Radicalz38: There is no "backwards" involved, all meego programs will run on all ARM and x86 platforms. That's the whole point of making the MeeGo platform in the first place.

0.o but the processor instructions are different? Well if that's the case then it's pretty neat! So I guess intel's implementation would only make a difference performance wise I guess?:D

[wmarone]

0.o but the processor instructions are different? Well if that's the case then it's pretty neat! So I guess intel's implementation would only make a difference performance wise I guess?:D

The instruction sets are different, yes. This is resolved via the build server which will compile both architectures and ease the process of cross compiling for the developer.

Since the APIs are the same, there shouldn't be anything (barring hardware specific stuff) that prevents a developer from targeting all MeeGo devices regardless of the CPU. It effectively becomes just another checkbox.

[Xagoln]

I am very close to buying an n900, and knowing that there would be even a development/unstable release of Meego for it in the future would be enough to clinch the deal for me.

[flameboy]

can I just check I've understood right? will the day come where all n900 owners can easily upgrade to meego with no problems?

[nosa101]

can I just check I've understood right? will the day come where all n900 owners can easily upgrade to meego with no problems?

Upgrade like OTA or using NSU? no

Upgrade like flashing? Maybe...WIP

[jack sparrow]

how can we port meego on zoom 2 board??

[Stskeeps]

how can we port meego on zoom 2 board??

Off topic here, but show up at #meego-arm on irc.freenode.net and talk a bit. I'll expect you to know how to build a kernel for your device and get it booting..

[jack sparrow]

i built the kernel and booted it as well.
but gui was not there.Is this due to display driver or something else?

[johnel]

i built the kernel and booted it as well.
but gui was not there.Is this due to display driver or something else?

X is present hence xterminal is visible but that's it. Qt Libraries are installed but no software to utilise it is present yet.

The GUI part is not included in the current release. I believe the "reference" UI is due for release at "some point in June".

Incidentally there are problems with the battery management software but I think the closed-source version works fine. The 3d acceleration is a closed-source binary too.

[sjgadsby]

Please continue discussion of adapting MeeGo to work on N900 hardware in the MeeGo forum (http://forum.meego.com/). Thank you.