No Further Support for 770 [Archive] - maemo.org

Rocketman

04-03-2007, 04:21 AM

The headline says it all. Quim Gill from Nokia just made the following post to the Maemo Developers list. The short of it is that there will be no future OS 2006 firmware releases. I view this in an extremely poor light given the number and severity of existing bugs on the platform and the obvious effort by Nokia to push sales of the 770 hard in stores (on a product they considered dead) in recent months to clear existing stock on hand. The software environment on the 770 never felt like much more than "beta" in status. Quim Gill's answer is that this was a version 1 product and that support for the N800 will be much better. Needless to say, I am skeptical. This, taken together with numerous reports of extremely poor experiences with Nokia's repair services makes me very reluctant to recommend the N800 to anyone (and I am in a position to push hundreds of them).

On Sun, 2007-04-01 at 13:38 -0400, ext Gopi Flaherty wrote:
> Is it possible to get an official or semi-offical word on this?

Yes, this is what has happened:

- As commented before in this list, we are working on making the public
bugzilla as useful as it should. Some of us started cleaning the
database, bug by bug. There were lots of really obsolete bugs, and also
lots of dupes. In some cases though (like the one pointed in this
thread) we closed a bug as WONTFIX too fast. Our apologies, and read the
next points if you know of other examples.

- As Carlos Guerreiro has pointed out previously, there are no plans to
make any new official release for the 770. There is the IT OS hacker
edition, but it's not official and the official development in Nokia is
currently focused in the maemo 3.x, IT OS 2007 and what is coming next.
This means that from our side there is no official 770 bug activity.

But wait a minute.

- The step from IT OS 2006 to 2007 is incremental, and many bugs (like
the one starting this thread) in fact are not exclusively found in the
770, they still happen in the N800. We are working solving those bugs,
and they are as relevant as the new bugs found specifically on the IT OS
2007.

- In fact a good % of the bugs open in the public bugzilla and tagged as
770 are probably fixed in the current stable releases, but due to our
definitely improvable workflow we haven't been able to update the bug
tags and resolution.

- The amount work required to fix all this in the currently submitted
bugs is not small. We will face this somehow but, frankly, I'm more
confident of the results we get improving our workflow, which is
ultimately the cause of this misscommunication.

- None of this solves per se the fact that 770 customers are not getting
these fixes into their devices. As said, according to the current status
they won't get it through a new official release. A chance could be the
IT OS hacker edition, but then they will skip into officially
unsupported land.

- It seems unrealistic to expect a guarantee of having all these bugs
fixed in a potential new version of the hacker edition, but perhaps we
can work out something focusing on the most annoying bugs that are
already solved in the N800? I'm just thinking out loud, we haven't got
any conversation about this as far as I'm aware.

If you have a better solution please share it.

> Now I warn them, it
> gets better until Nokia decides it's time for you to spend another $400.

This perception is understandable considering what has happened to the
770. Let me just state that the current status of this first product is
the result of a lack of better support planning specific for the
Internet Tablets. Not an effect of a kind of business model thinking
that customers will go for a new device every year.

We are learning, and we are applying the new lessons to the current
strategy. N800 customers (and developers targeting this device) will
received and improved support. We will provide details as soon as we
approve the new plans, currently under discussion.

fanoush

04-03-2007, 04:56 AM

the obvious effort by Nokia to push sales of the 770 hard in stores (on a product they considered dead) in recent months to clear existing stock on hand.
I didn't see such effort from Nokia. They even did not lower the price of n770 to make it more attractive. Current price of 350 EUR vs 400 EUR for n800 makes it clear which device is good to buy. If you listen to interview with Ari Jaaksi mentioned in this thread http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5534 it is intentional and they hope people will not buy n770 anymore. But still there may be people who prefer n770 for whatever reason so they still sell it. Maybe it also means that manufacturing costs of such first device is so high they cannot even reduce price because they profit is so thin.

I think it is fair. You may have another opinion but I think anyone could see N770 was first of its kind and this could be expected. All companies do it. If you don't like it, don't buy such devices and wait for second or third revision of the product.

nate the great

04-03-2007, 06:00 AM

cucurigu

04-03-2007, 06:34 AM

Aside from the Nokia bashing - what does this mean exactly ? I hoped for another iteration of the OS 2006 but this doesn't really come as a surprise - however how about opening the OS a little more (even to full open source) ? We could fix some of the bugs ourselves ...

benny1967

04-03-2007, 06:40 AM

... - however how about opening the OS a little more (even to full open source) ? We could fix some of the bugs ourselves ...

This is exactly the one point that proves Nokia 770/Maemo is not a true Open Source Platform... :(

It would be so great if there'd finally be an alternative to Maemo on the 770 hardware.

phi

04-03-2007, 10:22 AM

I do not believe it. I have found a company that I respect less than Microsoft. At least MS tries to fix the errors in its' products.

Do you know the really scary part? They will likely do the same to n800 users in about 18 months.

which is why it makes me hesitant to drop another 400 bucks for a product that will be End-Of-Life'd in 10 months. I understand that technology and Moores law dictates that most of the stuff we have now will eventually become obsolete, but really, most of the computers I buy still have a shelf life of 3 to 4 years.

maxilogan

04-03-2007, 11:05 AM

That's what all of us were expecting, or be scared of. I am an owner of a 770, and now I finally know that I will be stucked with this OS where all of the main components have to be replaced by others applications because they suck (I'm talking of RSS reader that I replaced with Bloglines770, Mail/sylpheed - claws mail, Opera / minimo).

This despite all of the words that were spent in the beginning (you will not be left alone, OS2006 will continue to be developed etc.). One release about no one knows the bugfixes.

Oh, my god. I am still phoning each day my colleague in USA to ask him to go round Huston to get a closing CompUSA and get the N800 deal, but how much should I expect it to be supported?

Texrat

04-03-2007, 11:10 AM

nate the great

04-03-2007, 12:59 PM

I think you need to re-read the commentary.

I stand by my prediction. There is no logical reason to completely abandon a device when it is only 18 months old and you continue to sell it. I can see it being done for cell phones, but a computer?

This was such a stupid decision on their part. What would have been the expense of advancing the OS for the 770 from OS2006 to later editions, when compared to the customer base they alienated?

cucurigu

04-03-2007, 01:28 PM

Milhouse

04-03-2007, 01:31 PM

I am shocked by the outright admission there will be no further OS 2006 releases - after Jaaksi's comments I had hoped for, no, expected at least one more release which addressed the more obvious and annoying bugs in the Nokia source code. Think of this release as a final "thank you" from Nokia and I reckon it would have been accepted by many 770 owners as being the official end of the line. But now they (and me included) will receive nothing.

The last 770 release in January should be forgotten - it really was a waste of time due to the lack of any obvious fixes. Perhaps Nokia saw this as their exit plan for the 770, but it was too soon and too little.

In all honesty, Nokia haven't fixed anything in OS 2006 since at least Q4 2006 - development of OS 2006 ended long before we knew about it. It's just taken Nokia 6 months to admit it.

Arjun

04-03-2007, 02:08 PM

:mad: Like many good people here have already mentioned, I too would have been happier if Nokia could Fix the bugs they have with OS 2006 before actually washing their hands off of the Nokia 770. When they came out with N800, I felt that this is it, they will not support the Nokia 770 anymore but then Dr Ari Jaaksi mentioned that they would support it a little more time. It is a different fact that this little time ( probably the time it took him to mention falsely that the Nokia 770 will be supported for some more time) mentioned by Ari Jaaksi really meant nothing. So like Milhouse mentioned, essentially we are stuck with it. The feeling of helplessness comes more from the fact that we all have been taken for a ride. Nokia got our money and that is it. Why would they care anymore? They are / were here to sell a product. Well, they did that and did it well. Now why should they bother anymore?

Finally, we see Nokia's ' feet of Clay '. This is so very similar to Sharp's quick exit from USA with their PDA.

I have always been a great fan of Nokia Phones and I still use one but honestly I don’t think that I am going to get a new one after I am done with this one. Also, It is a good thing that I convinced myself that I do not need the N800, because probably this too would go the way the Nokia 770 went.

So in all honesty, this Nokia 770 will be the last Nokia IT that I buy. Some of the things that work with it is fine but, no more. I cannot afford to buy a $ 300-400 device every time it comes out, when I very well know that it will not be supported after a few months.

Goodbye Nokia.

" We had joy, we had fun
we had seasons and the sun,
but you moved on,
leaving me behind."

It was nice knowing you.:rolleyes:

Milhouse

04-03-2007, 02:39 PM

What I find even more bizarre is that Nokia continue to sell the 770 as if it were a current product yet refuse to fix bugs and will not release any future firmware updates. Talk about having your cake and eating it!

Nokia over produced (or perhaps undersold) the 770 and are happy to sell it to unsuspecting buyers, yet at the same time they refuse to fix any bugs those new customers may find - what kind of support is that, Dr Jaaksi?

While the 770 remains a current item it should receive occasional firmware updates - not nearly as often as the N800 but still every now and again. The continued sales are, after all, funding future development and some of that development should benefit the 770.

As soon as the 770 is officially discontinued and no longer available for sale it should be followed by a final and "last hurrah" of a firmware release - a roll up of all the 770 bugs that could be fixed within a reasonable time-frame and at reasonable cost.

Texrat

04-03-2007, 02:43 PM

Texrat, having read the original post, I agree that the N800 may have a better life than the 770 - and I realize that the open source card has been played quite a few times here, but I would really like to hear an answer - if the 770 has been dropped from active development (and I suppose active fabrication also) is opening the OS a possibility ?

Even if it will not be the party line :rolleyes: I would like to know where others stand ...

Of course it's a possibility, and I firmly believe that the guys doing the real work on the tablets support that possibility 100%. Like the improvement of reverse logistics, however, this decision will be in the hands of executive management.

Personally I lean toward a gradual release of control as devices are orphaned, starting of course with the 770. There is precedence in the industry for this, and despite the protests of naysayers (and I do understand the nature of their complaints) Nokia does support OSS.

One comment I think is being overlooked in the quoted comemntary is how the tablet program is re-evaluating certain things. Trust me, in the Nokia world, that is profound. ;)

EDIT: you guys need to keep adding comments (thoughtful, objective, informative, etc) to Dr. Jaaksi's blog-- even if he hasn't posted in a while. Don't let the subject go stale-- that's what executive management counts on. Keep the dialog going. Point out that there are 6000 unique users on this forum-- surely they represent customers!

fanoush

04-03-2007, 04:06 PM

essentially we are stuck with it. You mean OS2006. Yes OS2006 is dead and no you are not stuck with it completely. As I understand it they simply do not have resources to maintain two versions of the system. I guess that small linux tablet developer group inside big Nokia surprised by its success is still pretty understaffed so they really focus on one goal now - fixing N800 (which is IMO still beta device too). Of course we as customers don't care and shouldn't care about this. What I want to say is that if there is some future, it is OS2007 on n770 currently called hacker edition, not 2006 system. It seems to work reasonably well and is in my opinion even better and more stable than 'stable' 2006 system. From the name you would expect rough edges. I didn't find any so far (except two minor fixable things - internet radio applet and sound in SDL programs). If you are not complete linux newbie, go for it and try it http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4852 . Also read what Quim said, they are thinking about this too. Officially it will probably stay unsupported (as anything for n770 in future) but it would take them much less resources to keep os2007 on 770 sort of living then trying to maintain dead IT2006. And we will win too since the gap between n770 and n800 will be smaller and most packages for n800 will work on n770 too.

So if you want to push them, maybe better is to push into (officially unsupported) OS2007 direction than the dead 2006 one. Just my opinion.

cucurigu

04-03-2007, 04:35 PM

Seems too good to be true - especially considering Ari Jaaksi's declarations that OS2007 will never be completely ported on the 770. The hacker edition is a very good solution _IF_ Nokia choses it.

What disapoints me is the response on this thread - from the "almost 6000 users" that this forum has (thanks Texrat, I didn't know the number :p ) there are only a few responses. With this kind of leverage I don't know if we will ever get any reponse ...

btw, fanoush, thanks for your great effort on the kernel (plus the other stuff, but that one really hits the spot) :D

phi

04-03-2007, 04:51 PM

I propose Nokia let 770 users have a upgrade/trade-in option! :D

Arjun

04-03-2007, 05:04 PM

I propose Nokia let 770 users have a upgrade/trade-in option! :D

:D :D Wow ! ! ! Someone sure is dreaming of a Silver Nokia N800. :D :D

bitgeist

04-03-2007, 05:16 PM

It is a shame that Nokia is ending support for the 770. There is a lot of inventory floating around out there. I guess we have to plead with Nokia to open up the code so the community can continue to support the device. Distributions like debian prove that an OS doesn't need to have a corporation behind it, but help from the hardware manufacturer can really make a difference.

Texrat

04-03-2007, 05:23 PM

Modulok

04-03-2007, 05:29 PM

I think it is very simple. If Nokia drops the support for the 770 such early then many users will drop their support in not buying new Nokia devices.

As I bought the N770 and thought it runs a free Linux, but at the moment I'm pretty much disappointed after I know it better.

Now I'm using the N770 as an E-Book reader and wait for a small device which runs one of the big Linux distros ...

... THEN I have support and no 18 month hardware subscription.

statwrangler

04-03-2007, 07:23 PM

Anyone who is worried that a nice machine could die should visit

http://www.newtontalk.net/archive/newtontalk.2007-03/

and be assured that the enthusiasts always win.

Nik1

04-03-2007, 07:31 PM

mrp

04-04-2007, 01:37 AM

This is exactly the one point that proves Nokia 770/Maemo is not a true Open Source Platform... :(

It would be so great if there'd finally be an alternative to Maemo on the 770 hardware.

Now some real enthusiasm for 770 is needed. What I would like to see, is a fully Canolaized 770. Canola has spinned the wheel. Put a few more items on the wheel, start Minimo/Mplayer/Mail/...

I want to remind/ inform those not familiar with, of Nokia Dbox2. A digital tv box, originally used in German cable networks, with Betanova software, now runs on linux, utilizes the originally useless 10MB ethernet connection for recording digital tv programs to a PC or a NAS. You can watch your recordings using Dbox2 Movieplayer or with help of VLC runnning on a PC, one can listen to web radio, show photos... Guys have even put an ide hard disk in that box and I think some success has been made using an RW-DVD. From Betanova to a completely different OS. Do some Googling and you propably will be impressed (Dbox2, Neutrino, Jacktherabber, Yadi, Dlaatikko)

Another nice example of real enthusiasm is NSLU2, which I use for as a media server (NFS-server) for my Dbox2. Flash a new firmware to this <100 Eur device, start OS from a HD/memory stick, install what ever package is needed for your purposes OR install complete Debian to it. (NSLU2, slug, unslung, openslus, genttoslug)

I know all this takes a lot of effort and I myself can only assist in beta testing and maybe translations, but using boot menu-type approach, starting OS from a memory card, everybody intrested could safely be part of this new venture.

phatcat33

04-04-2007, 02:02 AM

All of us must remember that Nokia is fairly new to the UMPC game. This may disappoint many people, but in my opinion, anyone that bought the n770 was a mere ALPHA/BETA tester for a future device to come. The future device today is the the N800. This is not a mystery though, all great things require time to build upon each predecessor.

That’s no reason to repeat those same mistakes. There’s enough history to step up and step beyond the failings of the past. Just do the right thing and open or port OS2007 (hacker edition??) to the 770 so “enthusiasts” can keep their toys (and allow the rest of us end-users to play too - :) ).

And yes, I’m disturbed by this latest development since I’m not sure how future non-support will affect my continued use of the device. I’ve had my 770 barely 12 months! Did your box/paperwork say “Alpha/Beta test device”? Mine didn’t. I got the impression the device was tried and true; and at $400, would be around much longer than 12 months. Perhaps the development has been too fast???? "All great things" indeed!

Anyway, should people who are mostly satisfied with the out-of-the-box version be concerned by Nokia dropping support? Will my 770 work in the morning? If not, will Nokia repair it?

And no, I will not be purchasing an 800. That trust has been broken.

cucurigu

04-04-2007, 02:05 AM

All of us must remember that Nokia is fairly new to the UMPC game. This may disappoint many people, but in my opinion, anyone that bought the n770 was a mere ALPHA/BETA tester for a future device to come. The future device today is the the N800. This is not a mystery though, all great things require time to build upon each predecessor.

Yes, great things take time and experience, but the users and clients do not have to be beta-testers or unwilling investors. This opinion (which sounds like a buddhist chant coming from Nokia heardquarters :) ) is false - nowhere in the ads was there a warning "Buggy platform" and no price reductions have been offered even AFTER the bugs were identified and stacked mile high.

What irks me is the way they play around with the idea of open source : bugs everywhere, but "hey, it's normal - we are aproviding the hardware; the software is yours to do. However wait - you can only create a few applications - and when we say it's over you'd better get your stuff and move to the next platform. We'll get it this time !"

I don't see the difference between developing for the 770/N800 and a Windows Mobile device - you have the same control over the OS. Anything else is a problem of semantics.

sevenape

04-04-2007, 02:39 AM

it's not really my place to add my 2 cents here, as I'm far, far less qualified to talk about this subject than the majority of you, but I'll happily lend my voice to the chorus, however, of course I'd like to see continued support of the 770, so show me where to sign the petition and I'll do it :)

fanoush

04-04-2007, 03:42 AM

I don't see the difference between developing for the 770/N800 and a Windows Mobile device - you have the same control over the OS. Anything else is a problem of semantics. That's huge oversimplification and exaggeration. With windows mobile you are completely screwed. With maemo you have approx. 90% (my guess) of system sources available. This still makes it not completely free and some bugs are really not fixable, but you (or someone else) can do a lot to fix your problems. That's big practical difference not just problem of semantics.

tabletfan

04-04-2007, 03:49 AM

Modulok

04-04-2007, 04:15 AM

maxilogan

04-04-2007, 06:18 AM

cucurigu

04-04-2007, 08:15 AM

That's huge oversimplification and exaggeration. With windows mobile you are completely screwed. With maemo you have approx. 90% (my guess) of system sources available. This still makes it not completely free and some bugs are really not fixable, but you (or someone else) can do a lot to fix your problems. That's big practical difference not just problem of semantics.

Yes, it is an exageration but it's not major - at least not in the sense I'm thinking. I wasn't talking about developer control and access to resources, I was refering to control over the life of the OS and implicitly over the life of the device. I have passed through the same problem with other devices (Jornada 720, Zaurus) and I'm getting a little tired of bone head decisions in the name of progress. I really feel the irony of deciding "we need to sell the next version" because sometimes that is my motto too, but I had hoped Nokia would get it right - at least in the last hour.

I can only hope now that before throwing it away they release everything - and I'm putting all my hopes in this. The only thing we need to do is let them understand they won't be losing sales, but rather get ahead of the mobile devices crowd and satisfy their "pro" users

Tuxedosteve

04-04-2007, 08:22 AM

Ok, what would you think, as a 800 buyer, if in a matter of 12 month the "future device" will be the N900? (not so unprobable, since Nokia already announced the release of Wimax tablets for 2008)

I'd be wanting to know "How much?" :) I'm a bit of a tech whore myself.

maxilogan

04-04-2007, 08:27 AM

I'd be wanting to know "How much?" :) I'm a bit of a tech whore myself.

I'd be thinkin' that myself too, but it's not that I have four hundred bucks a year to spend into this kind of things (something more, if you think that I am paying it in Euros :mad: )

Oh! By the way, is there anyone who wants to get me one N800 at 279$ at a closing CompUSA and send it to a company in Texas? One of my colleagues is over there.. :)

Texrat

04-04-2007, 10:08 AM

Apple will be new to the cellphone game when it comes out with the iPhone this summer. Do you think the iPhone will be a mere ALPHA/BETA product? I bet it will be polished and a fully functional product.

And I'll bet it has bugs, and doesn't sell anywhere near the insanely projected numbers, and is eventually abandoned.

talmage

04-04-2007, 03:30 PM

This is really disappointing. I bought my 770 in December, 2006. It's still covered by the warranty. Now I learn that Nokia is abandoning it. This is unacceptable!

Others have suggested that OSS developers take over fixing the OS for the 770. As much as I'd like to believe that will work, my experience tells me that it'll be a crapshoot. I had a Sharp Zaurus for three years. In that time, I used OpenZaurus. It was nice that there was something that worked but there weren't enough volunteers to fix bugs and the build system was undocumented and impossible to figure out unless you read the source code.

If volunteer OSS developers can maintain and improve the OS for the 770, I'll be overjoyed. I'm not holding my breath.

To whom at Nokia can I complain?

Texrat

04-04-2007, 03:57 PM

To whom at Nokia can I complain?

Ari Jaaksi:

http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/

fpp

04-04-2007, 04:01 PM

The topic has been heating up these days on the maemo mailing lists (users and dev), maybe you could start there.

Texrat has also suggested Dr Jaksi's blog, but I'm doubtful about that, I think it's mostly a soapbox for him and the comments are overflowing with spam anyway.

What saddens me most (apart from individual perceived loss) is that from the responses I see in the lists from Nokia staff, I get the impression that their maemo team is mostly a bunch of talented, well-meaning people, not so different from the community leaders on the other side, but they are getting stonewalled and hindered by corporate ponderousness and hidden agendas on a lot of fronts (surprise, eh ?), and there is a risk that all their hard work and good ideas will end up wasted that way...

gnuite

04-04-2007, 04:04 PM

The cynical among us saw this coming. As soon as the N800 was officially released, we heralded the end of the 770. Nokia tried to deny it, tried to assuage concerns, and some of us even bought it, but now it's official.

I'll repeat my initial argument. What the hell is so innovative and special in the N800 that it warrants abandoning the 770 entirely?

The added flash memory and memory card slot? No, that just adds file system space for storing music and videos. The extra RAM or faster CPU? It lets N800 users run more programs at once, and even some more CPU-intensive applications, but it's not a huge advance. The camera, or bluetooth 2.0? Please, how many applications (so far) are even using either of those?

There is nothing new in the N800 that justifies cutting off 770 users from OS2007. The proof is in the viability of the "hacker edition" that almost works but will never be supported (officially or otherwise).

I am extremely disappointed in the way Nokia handled this situation. I like the 770, and the N800 is a decent hardware improvement, but there is no reason (other than laziness) that Nokia needed to end support of the 770. I (and I'm sure other 770 users) would have been perfectly content if they simply added a new set of (specialized) applications that required the N800 for performance or feature reasons, while continuing to support general OS2007 functionality on the 770.

One word, Nokia: ouch.

thefakirrr

04-04-2007, 06:25 PM

Hi,

as a most of the time silent reader i totally agree with gnuite's view.
Being completely pleased with my 770 and seeing it's still being sold i cannot accept the OSS mirage simply thrown away so badly...
Hey ! call me naive but i'm a profound believer of openess goodness and Nokia is not feeting any good with my approach these days.

Having said this, i've installed the hacker's edition rootfs to flash and have evaluated it for an hour or so. I completely agree with what has been said elsewhere in this forum : basic tablet operations are going remarkably well.
This leads me to think that my new naive dream is obtaining some kind of non supported continued availability for this HE edition on the soon "prehistoric" 770 ! :D

As others expressed already, weeks to come will determine how interested i will or won't be in next Nokia's IT products.

See ya, Alex

convulted

04-05-2007, 06:07 AM

Frankly, the only thing I am scared of is getting something like a WSOD later on this year. Nokia would probably offer me something like $50 in compensation...

cucurigu

04-05-2007, 07:03 AM

The cynical among us saw this coming. As soon as the N800 was officially released, we heralded the end of the 770. Nokia tried to deny it, tried to assuage concerns, and some of us even bought it, but now it's official.
...
One word, Nokia: ouch.

I hope I'm not a cynic, but maybe they just wanted to take the heat off the launch of the N800. If all their users were mad about the 770 I don't know how many would immediately buy a 800 series - so why not drop a "small white" lie ?

I will surely not buy a N800 or N900 or Nxxx anytime soon, not until these problems have been tackled. I strongly suggest you do the same - not for the 770's OS or for my beliefs but for your own good - the same thread will be opened next spring with N800 in its title.

And if you cannot resist the temptation buy it from a friend or from somebody who doesn't use theirs - you'll get a good price and make a stand !

fpp

04-05-2007, 07:58 AM

That's exactly what I've been doing since january :-)

gnuite

04-05-2007, 09:25 AM

I hope I'm not a cynic, but maybe they just wanted to take the heat off the launch of the N800. If all their users were mad about the 770 I don't know how many would immediately buy a 800 series - so why not drop a "small white" lie ?
That's exactly what happened, which makes it an offense against both existing 770 owners and new N800 owners that were counting on continued support (as was implied by their statements regarding the 770). Now, it is of course possible that N800 owners won't suffer the same fate, but they can't feel easier about the situation in light of this recent development.

bcvthul

04-05-2007, 12:12 PM

Personally I think this is very disappointed news. I hope the iPhone of Apple will justice...;)

Texrat

04-05-2007, 12:30 PM

Texrat has also suggested Dr Jaksi's blog, but I'm doubtful about that, I think it's mostly a soapbox for him and the comments are overflowing with spam anyway.

It doesn't hurt to try, IMO. I have.

daverup

04-05-2007, 01:02 PM

Probably won't matter that much...
I had 3 WSOD in 9 months, how long will those remaining 770's run?
Nokia, I'm not interested in your devices, any of them.

Texrat

04-05-2007, 03:16 PM

I'm not sure how many of you are aware of the newsgroup thread on this, but here it is:

gmane.comp.handhelds.maemo.dev (No more 770 bug activity?)

EDIT: send concerns to qa@maemo.org.

cucurigu

04-06-2007, 01:42 AM

Probably won't matter that much...
I had 3 WSOD in 9 months, how long will those remaining 770's run?
Nokia, I'm not interested in your devices, any of them.

At least the physical warranty is sure :rolleyes:. But just out of curiosity, I read about the WSOD and apparently it was a design flaw corrected in newer units (and I suppose repaired ones). How come you kept receiving unfixed ones ?

daverup

04-06-2007, 06:50 AM

Average time in "Repair" about 1 month.
Each time in "Repair" screen replaced.
Last one left "Repair" 2/26/07, died this week, WSOD just like the others.
It's obviously a design flaw that Nokia has no intention of fixing permanently.
770 owners, prepare to be without your tablet, with or without warranty.

Serge

04-06-2007, 07:46 AM

Average time in "Repair" about 1 month.
Each time in "Repair" screen replaced.
Last one left "Repair" 2/26/07, died this week, WSOD just like the others.
Looks like all the persons who have repeatable WSOD problems had the screen replaced but reused all the other parts of the old device. It means they may have some other part defective that causes screen breakage eventually. So it is just a waste to put a perfectly good screen into a defective device and wait till it breaks again. Probably a device that had experienced WSOD at least once should be replaced with a new one instead of trying to repair it.

One more idea is that the users who had too many WSODs could all use some buggy software that could theoretically cause continuous reboot cycles sometimes (think about nightly reboots reported by some people) which could stress screen and LCD controller too much and cause it to 'wear out' its resource prematurely.

Anyway, only time will show how many Nokia 770 devices survive in couple of years. I hope that mine will live a long and happy life, I'm treating it with care :)

cucurigu

04-06-2007, 09:05 AM

Looks like all the persons who have repeatable WSOD problems had the screen replaced but reused all the other parts of the old device. It means they may have some other part defective that causes screen breakage eventually. So it is just a waste to put a perfectly good screen into a defective device and wait till it breaks again. Probably a device that had experienced WSOD at least once should be replaced with a new one instead of trying to repair it.

Is there any DIY solution ? Something a little flux would fix :D ? I'm asking because I think I'm missing something - if the problem is well known by Nokia why would they ruin LCDs (which must cost a pretty penny) on purpose ? Otherwise reports about a design flaw corrected in newer units have been greatly exagerated :D

One more idea is that the users who had too many WSODs could all use some buggy software that could theoretically cause continuous reboot cycles sometimes (think about nightly reboots reported by some people) which could stress screen and LCD controller too much and cause it to 'wear out' its resource prematurely.

Possible, but this means that people who never install stuff on the side haven't had the problem and I'm pretty sure I read some threads complaining about it WSOD-ing with out any reason (then again, it may be a symptom of the "I didn't even touch it" syndrome). More data needed ...

Anyway, only time will show how many Nokia 770 devices survive in couple of years. I hope that mine will live a long and happy life, I'm treating it with care :)

Me too, but I'm not sure that guaranties anything :(

Texrat

04-06-2007, 10:16 AM

Serge brings up the most likely explanation. From my unique perspective, the WSoD occurs very, very rarely (not trying to downplay your personal experiences) and for any person to encounter a series of three-- well, I can't calculate the probability offhand at the moment but I can assure you it's extremely low.

However... if Repair in their infinite wisdom kept sticking new screens on a defective device, now THAT makes (some sort of) sense. But it calls into question (again) the repair/replacement process. Why wasn't the device tested before it left repair? Why wasn't it investigated further the second time it came back? That is the point at which an experienced, analytical technician starts asking the obvious questions and performing the obvious tests. For whatever reason, this wasn't done.

There is no excuse for this. Daverup, I'm truly sorry you had to go through this. Experiences like that sure aren't helping the adoption of the tablets...

OH, and FYI: design flaws ARE taken seriously, and corrected as soon as possible. The breakdown is occurring in repair and replacement.

daverup

04-06-2007, 11:08 AM

I can't even contemplate sending in the 770 to the Nokia "Repair" "Roach Motel" again.
I didn't think I was going to last time around, and regret every second I wasted on it.
Why can't Nokia set up some kind of "Customer Care" that is real. The present system, is a fraud. The "Helpful" people there can only sound helpful, they don't have any helpful information, since the repair is outsourced to some companies not accessible for real time repair status. Customer care employees only waste my time and then pass you off to the next level once the 30 day period is done. The next level is also useless, only issuing refunds (prorated with receipt), or continued waits.
None of this compensates me adequately for the time I've wasted with the 770 over the past year. I've paid full price and been treated like an idiot. I may be an idiot for ever wasting money on the 770.
I like the 770, I would still be using it if it weren't defective by design. I'm sure it passed whatever QC tests were required after repair, It works fine for awhile when I get it (one or two months).
I didn't reboot constantly, run custom kernels, or anything I compiled.
The POS 770 just isn't reliable and Nokia's "Roach Motel" is so bad that repair isn't worth the trouble.
Get someone to ADMIT what the problem is, and agree to fix it with real repair status info, and I MIGHT be willing to give it another chance.
As things stand now, NO WAY!

Texrat

04-06-2007, 11:12 AM

Daverup, check your private messages when you get a chance.

convulted

04-06-2007, 11:20 AM

Daverup isn't the only one who suffered from these kind of problems. If there is anything that you *can* share, please spill the beans texrat. Right now I am hunting for a BP-5L battery (everyone seems to have BL-5C's) where I live because my original battery is still stuck in the roach motel. If I do not get a battery by this Sunday and find out that the repair was defective I'd have to airmail the 770 back to Nokia. As thngs stand my tablet has spent more time in repairs than in my hands.
IMHO the problem lies with the firewall Nokia has built surrounding the 770repair centers. Phone repair centers can be contacted but not these. WHY?

Texrat

04-06-2007, 11:26 AM

convulted, as I've said, I'm not in the repair loop, sorry. That is its own entity, and your term "firewall" appears to be unfortunately accurate. :(

I can't do much about the repair/replacement process. I wish I could. It's too large. I have been, however, able to provide help in certain individual situations as well as providing spare 770 covers as you know (in fact I will be able to offer more now).

And I know it's hindsight for you, but I want to reiterate for the general population: strip down your devices when you send them for repair. No batteries, no covers, no stylus, nothing but the essential unit.

As for the BP-5Ls, some posters here have reported success buying them (or generics) off of ebay vendors. I'd recommend following their example. I am unfortunately unable to provide batteries, sorry.

bac522

04-06-2007, 01:09 PM

Serge brings up the most likely explanation. From my unique perspective, the WSoD occurs very, very rarely (not trying to downplay your personal experiences) and for any person to encounter a series of three-- well, I can't calculate the probability offhand at the moment but I can assure you it's extremely low.

I had 2 within 2 weeks on 2 completely brand new units, I doubt its that rare.

However... if Repair in their infinite wisdom kept sticking new screens on a defective device, now THAT makes (some sort of) sense. But it calls into question (again) the repair/replacement process.

The problem has to do with a bad LCD driver chip and not the screen. Putting a new screen in would immediately show the same symptom unless repair didn't even bother to turn the device on which would be very troublesome. Then again, Nokia seems to heading in the wrong direction we it comes to properly servicing their customers.

Texrat

04-06-2007, 01:24 PM

I had 2 within 2 weeks on 2 completely brand new units, I doubt its that rare.

While I can understand why you'd feel that way, you and I see this from very different perspectives. You've dealt with two tablets. I've dealt with thousands.

Again, that is not to downplay your very real issues, but when I see the small number reported in this forum juxtaposed against the number I've touched and especially the larger number sold overall-- well, one need not be a statistician to recognize that the problem is indeed very rare when compared against the whole.

What you guys are seeing is clustering, a common and unfortunately sometimes hard to detect phenomenon. If you saw my little spiel on QA sampling then you saw how this can occur. Clusters can be detected IF the defects occur in large enough numbers to be caught by typical sampling plans; they are difficult if not impossible to detect when they occur in small numbers... ergo the situation we're discussing.

As for the latter part of your post, we are in complete alignment and agreement.

cucurigu

04-06-2007, 05:33 PM

And I know it's hindsight for you, but I want to reiterate for the general population: strip down your devices when you send them for repair. No batteries, no covers, no stylus, nothing but the essential unit.

Hmmm, but what is the essential unit ? I'll send only the battery door, if it's enough :p

Sorry, couldn't help myself ;)

cucurigu

04-06-2007, 05:42 PM

What you guys are seeing is clustering, a common and unfortunately sometimes hard to detect phenomenon. If you saw my little spiel on QA sampling then you saw how this can occur. Clusters can be detected IF the defects occur in large enough numbers to be caught by typical sampling plans; they are difficult if not impossible to detect when they occur in small numbers... ergo the situation we're discussing.

Sorry for double posting, but this sounds really interesting. Have you been able to find any links between problem units and a production batch ? Maybe a range of serial numbers will help any user know what to expect.

Texrat

04-06-2007, 10:46 PM

Sorry for double posting, but this sounds really interesting. Have you been able to find any links between problem units and a production batch ? Maybe a range of serial numbers will help any user know what to expect.

Problem is, whatever data I had along those lines I could not provide, sorry. I'm pushing the boundaries as it is.

Arjun

04-07-2007, 11:29 AM

This is my personal Opinion.
So I make only Nokia responsible for it. :D :D

I see many posts at ITT about WSOD, Touch Screen Pressure dead zone issues and various other problems culminating eventually in the aspect Nokia not supporting the Nokia 770 anymore.

Therefore out of my meagre thoughts, let me suggest that all of us who have had multiple WSOD or other such major Hardware issues on Nokia IT's, find the Mailing address of Mr Ari Jaaksi or some other such big shots within Nokia and ship the broken ITs to them. Let them know and feel the frustration that is experienced by normal Users when Nokia takes decisions that show their blatant disregard for the end User's needs.

I think if this is done, such people as mentioned above would be flooded with so many ( if not too many ) ITs that they maybe forced to take notice of the issues and understand the implication of their idiotic decisions. :rolleyes:

phi

04-08-2007, 09:03 PM

After trying out the hacker edition of OS2007 on my 770. I think its sad to see a machine that still has a lot of potential to be abandoned. Wish they would at least give us an OS2006b or something

Hedgecore

04-09-2007, 11:02 AM

I'm rambled a bit about it before, but the only hope for the 770 and n800 are to move away from maemo. For most intents and purposes it's closed source. It's a perfect example of why the Linux community at large are up in arms against binaries. At this point in the game it looks like everyone who toiled to bring great apps to these devices were chumps for the corporate need to have a robust application base as a prime selling point.

If I had even an inkling of the knowledge required to get ArmedSlack to boot, I'd be knee deep in it. But I don't. The only way to set these tablets free is to head for a complete OSS solution. The sheer amount of reverse engineering needed is staggering, so no, I don't say these words lightly.

For those with both 770s and n800s, has app development died down? Personally, if I spent months working on a project on the 770 and had things get changed around to the point where I had to fork out a separate version (not to mention buy an expensive new hardware platform), I'd shut down shop. Where will the n800 be in a few months?

Justification labelling 770 owners as 'beta' testers is completely unacceptable. I'm not a corporate schill. There's a reason I've got 15 square inches of deskspace unoccupied by an n800 right now. Nokia botched it. As Gnuite said, there was nothing warranting an upgrade, aside from the incompatibilities between the two and lack of support. I call that extortion. There are no traces of Stockholm syndrome here. I recognize where I fit in the customer/supplier relationship and recognize which direction the cashflow goes... and right now, it's not going anywhere.

HEDGE.

Texrat

04-09-2007, 01:09 PM

There's a catch-22 here.

If enough bad press builds up and impacts N800 sales, it could very well encourage Nokia to kill the platform (for a while anyway). The N-gage device is a perfect example.

It's therefore in Nokia's best interest to address the negative publicity head-on instead of ducking it or responding with vague statements or excuses.

By the same token, it's in the best interest of advocates to temper their complaints with objectivity, so that we don't get into a self-defeating cycle of bashing for the sake of bashiong (not saying that anyone in this thread is doing that, but it's a natural escalation).

I'd be extremely happy if this impasse was addressed really soon.

Hedgecore

04-09-2007, 09:55 PM

And here's another catch-22. Nokia is a business and is accountable only to it's shareholders. We already bought the hardware, there's no service plan accompanying it, they owe us nothing. Those that have an n800 sitting next to their 770 did them a lot of good, but even now they're making nothing off of them. They probably saved quite a bit in development and support costs by having the community do the dirty work in creating applications making it a more attractive platform to purchase.

I haven't used my Nokia 770 in about 2 weeks, so I hope this isn't construed as mindless *****ing. I've given it a lot of thought and came to a conclusion I'd rather not have arrived at. (I hope nobody takes it to heart, I still wear buttons on my jacket (the one with the band logo painted on the back) and band/political patches on my pants.) You should expect corporate bashing from me... except in this case I feel it's warranted.

Set the 770 free, you've no more money to make off of it.

Texrat

04-09-2007, 10:26 PM

Yeah, at some point it becomes cheaper to orphan a product than continue it...

Hedgecore

04-10-2007, 08:07 AM

Perhaps not. The elements that never translate well into boardroom graphs are the intangibles. I've got extra money kicking around now and I just might have done an on-a-whim upgrade to the n800; if I felt that it'd be around in a year. I've already lost 4 months on it since it was released, providing it lasts as long as the 770, there isn't much time left. Besides, there are still many problems with it. I think the 3rd gen may be the way to go, but unless they shape up on how they're dealing with their 'legacy' (in quotes 'cause c'mon... this thing is just coming up on 2 yrs.) products then I'm not prone to spend $500 on something new unless I know software support will continue.

Another intangible is word of mouth advertising. I'm going to have to answer honestly when people ask about support...

The ironic thing is looking back on all the cell phone comparisons. I've got another one. The Nokia phone my friend bought 5 yrs ago still works just fine. Maybe it *should* be more like a cell phone. :P

carbon

04-10-2007, 10:33 AM

I purchased the 770 in November, 2006 after considering it for 2 to 3 months. At this point, there was no N800 announced by Nokia. I paid full price, thinking I was getting a quality item supported by a reputable company (not a fly-by-night knock off). I spent a lot of time working with it and getting many of the fine user developed apps working, i.e. Mapper, mplayer, etc. I even considered developing for it myself. I bought a bluetooth GPS, convinced others to buy the 770, and defended the unit to PDA proponents and other WIFI device users. When the N800 came out I almost bought one, before I started reading this thread.

Nokia's web site had led me to believe that I had purchased an item which they intended t o continue to sell and support. They even issued a late 2006 OS update prior to saying they were obsoleting the 770. I will now not be purchasing the N800, since it is obvious that Nokia has little commitment to their customer base of 770's and has misled me. Nokia cell phones, bluetooth, and other electronics will be avoided as well. There is an old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!". I am not unhappy with the 770, but realize that it is destined to be a $350 Mahjong game unit. Even Nintendo stands behind their DS units longer than Nokia seems to support the 770. (at 1/3 the price, with WIFI, and an available Opera browser)

Texrat

04-10-2007, 12:11 PM

It's posts like that one ^ that concern me. I hope the right people are getting the message. I still encourage you guys to post these stories to Dr. Jaaksi's blog and/or email the address I posted.

And Hedgie, I hear you loud and clear. I really want this platform to succeed and if Nokia brass does they'll take these statements to heart.

shulcher

04-10-2007, 01:21 PM

Hedgecore

04-10-2007, 02:23 PM

Schulcher: If it already does what you want it to do, and does it with acceptable performance, then by all means get one. If, like me, you wanted a linux based platform which would grow and become more functional as time went on (as linux tends to do), avoid it like the plague.

Texrat: I hope someone gets the point. I've read Ari's blog and it is what it is. The only way I'm going to be happy is if they set 'er free because cornering the market on Nokia stock and getting onto a steering committee seems unlikely ;)

Karel Jansens

04-10-2007, 02:38 PM

Wow. I was just about to shell out for an N800. Didn't get a 770, really wanted something 8.5x11 (page sized), but finally decided that the N800 was the best price/feature/performance option of me.
Now I'm just concerned. Time to do a lot more research before I pull the trigger.

I just bought a Fujitsu ST4120 off eBay. It's more expensive than a N800, and that's yesterday's tablet.

There's also the issue of different usage patterns: My present-day tablet (an ageing Fujitsu Stylistic 3400) is basically a notetaker and sketchbook, while my N800 is practically always in or near my pocket. I read a lot and the convenience of having 1,000+ ebooks in my pocket, ready to be read on that gorgeous screen, is beyond words.

rachid

04-10-2007, 05:30 PM

i am using my N770 (now with OS2007Hackeredition) and i am very happy. It does, what i want - internet and ebooks!
I do not need a linux machine in my pocket. For big thinks i am using my laptop.

Milhouse

04-10-2007, 11:28 PM

For big things I use a desktop. For everything else I use my N800. Priceless. :)

osma

04-11-2007, 05:01 PM

Figured it wouldn't hurt to chime in on this thread as well. Basically, I'm with Hedge on this. I could certainly afford to buy an N800 to replace my 770 (bought last summer), and I used to recommend the gadget to anyone interested. Since the N800 launch it was obvious which way the support ship would turn though, and right now I wouldn't dream of spending more good money after bad, let alone ruining my own reputation by recommending an IT to anyone.

I upgraded to the hacker edition soon after it was released (thanks, Markku and anyone else who made that possible!), and was relatively satisfied with the solution (again, not that I'd recommend it to anyone else, though). However, it always did suffer from random crashes, and after the last two, the system is so corrupted the web browser won't even start. Yeah, I could flash back. It's more likely I'll just drop the whole thing, though, since this situation just reminds me of everything I'd rather forget.

It's still possible to salvage the mess and win back the early adopters, but not for long, and only two ways to do it: either fully support both devices with the same OS version (that's what operating systems are about -- abstracting hardware differences to a common software base), or FULLY open source it to fulfill the promise with which most of the 770 were sold.

Hedgecore

04-11-2007, 06:34 PM

Oh, while I'm a huge fan of an open OS on a tablet, I'm not talking about laptop-like functionality. (Read the crusty old msgs here, I'm a huge opponent of that and used to tell people what they really wanted was a lappy all the time.) In the old days, having a USB key on me was amazing. If someone had some pictures I wanted, a song, anything like that, I could dump it onto the key and slide it into my pocket. I'm looking for something more with a tablet, but still along the same lines. When my cat had a kitten and someone asked what it looked like, I could pull out the 770 and get the usual two comments ('AWWWWE!' and 'Damn, nice screen!') I've watched a tv show or two on the subway going to work, though never listened to music on it really. Tried once, it was just awkward. The games (sodoku, drug wars, mahjongg, solitaire) are great. Web access, while vastly improved over most other offerings, still had quirks (the infamous *poof*). The USB power injector I built was awesome, mounting media cards, connecting my mp3 player for 40GB quick storage, USB keyboards, etc. I never did put a switch on it so it killed my battery after a day, heh.

But that's what I'm talking about. Expandability. Limitless options. Being able to dump pictures from a card reader onto it. Mounting my 40GB mp3 player for some movie watching on a trip. Even things like bluetooth webcams(if they exist) would kick ***. All too limited and buggy right now.

*edit
And I should add, I was always confused by the surveys Nokia put out. "How many cell phones do you own, 1, 2, 3, more". Howabout none. They're the most intrusive invention ever. I can't count the number of times someone yakking loudly about nothing on one around me has almost ended up seeing if their stomach could digest it. People buy new phones every year to be trendy and hip. Latest and greatest. If they just opened up the bloody tablet (instead of this strange pseudo open thing they're doing now) it'd be far more useful and far more prolific. If an open distro (read: full source available minus licensed binary pkgs like Opera)(Yes, binary pkgs = bad, but it's a compromise) was available, I'd totally upgrade to the n800. It's the equivalent of your pentium 3 still being in working order and going to a pentium 4. (My P3 1Ghz was fine when I got my p4 3Ghz 3 yrs ago.)

Vinh

04-11-2007, 08:21 PM

After the announcement of the 880 and OS 2007, I felt that Nokia pretty much abandoned the 770. I was reassured by some on this board that Nokia would still continue working on the 770 and that the open source community would be able to continue the development. Well, with the official drop of support and the clamor about the 770 being not completely open, I feel my hopes are dashed again. :( And that, of course, makes me wary of the 880. I, too, am not ready to plunk another $400 for a device that isn't quite ready. I think most of us felt that the 770, while not quite fitting all our needs immediately, could one day do so. Now it seems unlikely...

Another disappointed 770 user who won't be buying an 880,

Vinh

770d

04-12-2007, 04:38 AM

I am another disappointed 770 owner. From a hardware point of view, I think the device is close to perfect and I love it. The story has always been different from the software side. But from the first day on, I put up with it since I was made to believe that we will see the day when all major bugs are worked out.

Now with the official drop of support and closed source parts, there is no hope left. I can certainly afford a 880 and I would buy one just for the Web2.0 support, but after such treatment from Nokia, I don't even consider buying another Nokia product as an option.

I am certainly very disappointed and am making sure people around me know about this situation before they invest in a Nokia product.

Luna

04-17-2007, 09:47 AM

i am using my N770 (now with OS2007Hackeredition) and i am very happy. It does, what i want - internet and ebooks!
I do not need a linux machine in my pocket. For big thinks i am using my laptop.

Wait until the 'net is mostly flash-based and then you will see the unfortunate circumstance we are in. At least the bulk of the MS based UMPC comes with the assurance you are running an OS that is fully supported.

That was the appeal of the 770, the false allure of opensource...

Texrat

04-17-2007, 09:52 AM

Wait until the 'net is mostly flash-based ...

If that "mostly" happens, and I highly doubt that, it's years off.

phi

04-17-2007, 10:16 AM

not if Adobe has it their way. Their Apollo/Flex platform is being marketed as the next big thing, and its based on flash. Its trickling into the mainstream already as we speak.

TA-t3

04-17-2007, 10:32 AM

=DC=

04-17-2007, 11:56 AM

Well, apparently Adobe is trying to integrate mandatory ad support into Flash so that you'll be forced to watch a few minutes of ads before you get to the content. When that happens the world will move on, to the next technology. As always happens when someone tries stunts like this.
Ye of little faith. :D It's true there will be changes that will disrupt Adobe's plans for "world wide web domination", but even those changes will take time, and I don't think the entire Internet will become "mostly" flash based any time soon because of Apollo/Flex anyways. There are still many third world countries just catching up to what web tech we had years ago for that to happen.

Luna

04-17-2007, 12:13 PM

It is hard to deny the influence of flash. Even so, that just presents one technology that is not a a good option for us. What of all the others yet to be known.

All it takes if for *your* favorite website to become flashed and the 770 is usesless to you. So how many N800's have you recommended lately? I personally cannot in good faith considering this is an internet device that still has the horsepower necessary. The lack of support a year and a half later is the kicker.

Yes we have a 07 hacker version but that is only good for a few of us.

Texrat

04-17-2007, 12:44 PM

Like many people, I will fight wholesale Flash carpet-bombing of the internet tooth and nail. I'd prefer it's usage be as limited as possible, and am of the opinion that most Flash is unnecessary. I despise Flash ads that fly across the page, seize my mouse focus and interrupt my purpose. I only hope enough people will rebel against this insidious evil to at least temper it a bit.

And now Microsoft announces they are finally taking on Adobe and will roll out their own competing technology to Flash.

Just freaking great. Whatever happened to the open standard of SVG? Microsoft was *supposedly* behind it 100%-- but it's still not integrated into IE7.

/rant

TA-t3

04-17-2007, 01:22 PM

Hear hear!

BTW, in my opinion the greatest mistake Sir Tim et. co. did with the original HTTP 1.0 specification was to include browser identification. Talk about opening a Pandora's box of ways to kill the original idea of a client-independent format. Since then it's gone mostly downhill, unfortunately.

Hedgecore

04-17-2007, 03:41 PM

Back when I was 12 (which was in 1991) I got an internet acct on a local unix based ISP here in Toronto. I used Lynx via my shell account and got used to the web being text based. The first time I saw Netscape it blew my mind. It was the perfect mix of graphics and content. (Yes, I separate the two). The beauty back then was that business jerks hadn't taken over the internet yet. So much shared responsibility and resources without much money changing hands, they just had to move in and let me know my wang isn't long enough. :/

Simon

04-19-2007, 05:12 AM

Oooh, I haven't logged in here for a long time! My 770 headphone socket died today. Well, one channel stopped working. I think the socket is buggered so I figured I'd log on and see if anyone else has had that happen and fixed it.

Then I see this thread. Pretty disappointing reading I must say. No more support for the 770. I also feel somewhat cheated by this. I was a pretty early adaptor of it and went to a lot of trouble getting a friend to buy me one in the states and ship it down here to NZ. That wasn't even 18 months ago and now the thing is obsolete (as well as broken)?

A friend is just buying a 800. He to had to go to all the trouble of getting someone to pick one up in the states for him. I don't know if I have the heart to tell him based on past experience he's just wasted his money. I wouldn't trust Nokia now to buy a 800 and I am actively looking at alternatives. I'd quite like the Raon Vega running XP (http://www.dynamism.com/vega/main.shtml) maybe.

I have found the main use of my 770 has been using it to watch video on public transport as well as using it as a portable internet device around home mainly (not enough open networks around here to make it useful anywere else really). Now with the headphone socket broken that's one main use gone.

I will try to fix it I guess. No point me even trying to get Nokia to fix it under warrenty. I'd have to send it back to the states and then who knows how long it would take to get it repaired. Better to try myself.

It's been a fun little device while it lasted. I never did get into developing for it. Being a Win coder the learning curve going to Linux was more than I could be bothered with. I ended up installing Windows back on my dev box and putting MAME on it (then building a TARDIS around that but that's a whole other story). Owning the 770 never quite lived up to my early Palm PDA days where I did get into development and hacking and all sorts of fun. The little bit of hardware hacking I did on the 770 was fun too but that never really went anywhere.

So I guess this is goodbye. I might log back in to post about how the headphone socket surgery goes I guess. But ultimately it will be onto other things, other devices. And I am pretty certain I won't be getting another Nokia handheld for a while. Not until they show they have some commitment to a device. Be interesting to see how my friend and everyone else gets on with their 800s. Hopefully they get better and longer support than us 770 chumps.

Simon

Odin

04-28-2007, 08:15 PM

... if the 770 has been dropped from active development (and I suppose active fabrication also) is opening the OS a possibility ?

Even if it will not be the party line :rolleyes: I would like to know where others stand ...

This is the only option that Nokia has (in my opinion) to both save face and at the same time appease the existing 770 user base. We do have some clout and anyone asking me gets: "Go ahead fool, buy a Nokia."

Once the OS becomes open source just imagine the possibilities. The hardware is underpowered, but has extensive capability in terms of I/O and expansion. Just trimming out all the crap and building an efficient and dynamically upgradable browser would be a great leap forward.

Odin

04-28-2007, 08:17 PM

A friend is just buying a 800. He to had to go to all the trouble of getting someone to pick one up in the states for him. I don't know if I have the heart to tell him based on past experience he's just wasted his money.

Simon

Your friend? I think you have a duty to at least point him here. Keep mum about it around your enemies.

iball

04-29-2007, 01:13 AM

I bought an N800 because it does EXACTLY what I want and a little "more".
VoIP (Gizmo), reading ebooks, quick-check of email, and limited web browsing while on the move.
On a recent trip I took I went sans Macbook Pro and just used the N800. It was fine, even letting me call both home and work while on layover in Frankfurt (via Gizmo).
And they probably will never release the full-on sources for the N770 because I bet they re-used a lot of it for the N800.
What it looks like to me is a ton of buyer's remorse in here. How many cell phones from Nokia last as long in production as the N770 did? I have an "old" 6620 that was pretty much obsolete the day I bought it new. There's still a ton of software out there for that phone and there's still a ton of software that can be ported over to the N770 as well.
Seriously folks, stop whining already.
This is like amateur drag racing, a "hobby" where you have to pay to play.
If you can't fork out the dough to "upgrade" then be content with what you have because out of everything else out there for this niche market, this is one of the better products. Think of it more this way: if you have to ask how much it costs then you can't afford it. Move on to something that's cheaper.
A year from now if Nokia decides to announce/release the "new N900" or whatever I won't care since the N800 does what I need it to do right now. I'm not trying to force my N800 to be a jack-of-all-trades device because those types of devices tend to never do any one thing really well.
Deal with it. Life goes on.

fpp

04-29-2007, 05:30 AM

Thanks for the philosophy lecture :-)
But this isn't about money, it's about open source, and what you say vs. what you do.
Nokia never claimed any of their phones was 'open', and we don't blame them for that. Maemo is a totally different matter.

mrp

04-29-2007, 05:30 AM

whining and whining. This is not whining. This is about getting what you are supposed to get. You buy something that is faulty it should be fixed. It really is strange that there is no obligations concerning buggy software. It is really stupid to accept lack of support with no complaining at all. And they even, at least in Finland, keep on selling 770 in their web shop!
On my part it is not about the 400 Euros. It is about what is right or wrong and once people accept this kind of practise, how can we ever expect anything better

=DC=

04-29-2007, 10:12 AM

Oooh, I haven't logged in here for a long time! My 770 headphone socket died today. Well, one channel stopped working. I think the socket is buggered so I figured I'd log on and see if anyone else has had that happen and fixed it...

...I will try to fix it I guess. No point me even trying to get Nokia to fix it under warrenty. I'd have to send it back to the states and then who knows how long it would take to get it repaired. Better to try myself.

Yeah, one of my channels stopped working as well, but I never really used it much with headphones anyways. Much luck to you getting it fixed. I might try my hand at it if you get it working again and share your repair experience.

I don't think I'll stop using the 770 until it becomes "completely" useless to me. The wireless would have to go out, MMC reader stop reading, face buttons stop working, touch screen stop responding, and not turn on at all before I look at replacing it with another. But maybe I'm just the type of person that doesn't like to give up so easily on this type of stuff, and sometimes that can be a bad thing. :(

dtrask

04-29-2007, 11:04 AM

=DC=

04-29-2007, 02:35 PM

:) Well, to whatever newbies are reading this.. I love my n800! It does exactly what I need. Easy web browsing...easy email & communication...ability to control & manage servers via ssh or VNC...and so forth. Remember...it's an internet tablet...not a laptop replacement. It allows me to travel lighter when all I need is online connectivity and resources.
...and that's all that truly matters to most of us. :) I think it's going to take a handful of developers to ensure that 770, N800, and future Internet Tablets owners get to enjoy a lot of the great software and services without discriminating between the devices too much.

ArnimS

04-29-2007, 06:28 PM

...and that's all that truly matters to most of us. :) I think it's going to take a handful of developers to ensure that 770, N800, and future Internet Tablets owners get to enjoy a lot of the great software and services without discriminating between the devices too much.

It's fine to be in love with the 770 / 800 tablets - as products, they deserve it. My overall subjective impression is that they are quite solid, and I think the Nokia software people deserve high praise for the end result.

I also think it is justifiable for Nokia to reserve OS and app enhancements for the N800's it2007 and later tablets.

I can't, however, be silent on Nokia dropping bugfix support on a device that's still being sold. I've only encountered one bug that hurts my efforts in porting games/emus (which is pretty good!) - but - this bug really hurts.

This frustration is tempered by the awareness that nothing comes close to the features provided by the 770/800 at this price point, and that i will, in time, find workarounds for my porting/development issues.

=DC=

04-29-2007, 09:09 PM

It's fine to be in love with the 770 / 800 tablets - as products, they deserve it. My overall subjective impression is that they are quite solid, and I think the Nokia software people deserve high praise for the end result.

I also think it is justifiable for Nokia to reserve OS and app enhancements for the N800's it2007 and later tablets.

I can't, however, be silent on Nokia dropping bugfix support on a device that's still being sold. I've only encountered one bug that hurts my efforts in porting games/emus (which is pretty good!) - but - this bug really hurts.

This frustration is tempered by the awareness that nothing comes close to the features provided by the 770/800 at this price point, and that i will, in time, find workarounds for my porting/development issues.
I'm with you there ArnimS. Good, solid devices and fairly stable software (considering today's complexity in all aspects of OS and software development), and aside from this being a more open ended mobile platform than any I've seen before, especially as this is still a fairly new genre of mobile devices. And all this at a really decent price, from a reputable mobile manufacturer is like living a very cool dream. :)

I also share your pain with the killing of 770 support, as it was most certainly a despicable move on Nokia's part, and I still believe that it has done more harm than good for those that are early adopters of the 770 as well as the second wave of customers purchasing or considering the purchase of the N800. And I firmly believe most new Internet Tablet customers take the plunge because of the community here and other great sites heavily promoting the coolness of the experience of owning these gadgets.

As far as development is concerned, I learned that depending on many elements to ensure future software compatibility is quite daunting when you intend to support two (or more) branches of an operating system, and that each has had it's fair share of issues to have to work around. I personally no longer trust my work to the horrors of an Application Manager either. Ironically, the option that might work for some of my projects will be by using Flash and the Opera browser to power them. Two of some of the major assets of these devices, yet the least involved when it comes to what the devices are capable of. I hope to change that a little, but we'll just have to see how Nokia decides for the devices to progress from here, as the ball is still in their court with the "not quite fully open source" issue. Time will tell, there's still a long ways for the concept to grow. :)

fanoush

04-30-2007, 06:42 AM

Looks like we won one battle for N770 furure :-)
http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/356

Still not supported officially (as in Hello customer support, this software crashes can you help me) but better than nothing.

Thanks to people on this forum who tried to download it. It was important in the decision, see also end of http://www.notacloud.com/blog/?p=32

fpp

04-30-2007, 06:55 AM

Yup, just saw these on the Planet too.
Real good news, for a change. Now they need to come up with some actual results... An updated version of OS2007 for 770 would be a good start !

benny1967

04-30-2007, 07:00 AM

Looks like we won one battle for N770 furure :-)
http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/356

I'm really happy to read this; everything else in this blog-post is very interesting, too. It seems they're really moving in the right direction.

Milhouse

04-30-2007, 12:17 PM

Still not supported officially (as in Hello customer support, this software crashes can you help me) but better than nothing.

Let's be honest, has anyone contacted Nokia officially and gotten support for N800 software? I've seen N800 posts in the official Nokia discussion forum go unanswered - I dread to think what would happen if you actually called their help center! They probably only have two answers a) pull out the battery, followed by b) reflash it.

IMHO, the unsupported Hacker Edition IT2007 will receive the same level of support as the official supported IT2006! :) If you want help with either, try the forums/newsgroups and don't bother contacting Nokia except for hardware repairs (and even then you may need to think twice...) :D

carbon

04-30-2007, 04:00 PM

... Real good news, for a change. Now they need to come up with some actual results... An updated version of OS2007 for 770 would be a good start !

Until Nokia actually issues an update, I'll stick with my mantra, "Fool me twice, shame on me." Let's hope the words out of Nokia are backed up with code. If they do, I'll consider reverting to my original plan of eventually updating to the N800 and passing the 770 on to a relative, but Nokia has a hill t o climb.

c_legaspi

05-08-2007, 02:07 PM

i agree. talk is cheap. i will also wait before i consider an n800 or future tablets from nokia

carbon

05-27-2007, 09:24 PM

Still waiting........ Any news?

Modulok

05-28-2007, 04:38 AM

nokia_it_gainings=(new_n800_users+(n770_owners-n770_users_ unsatisfied))*n800_price - epsilon

nokia_it_gainings is maximized by keeping n770 users waiting

:)

gzmask

05-28-2007, 01:22 PM

further 770 support = keep hosting the 770 software and docs , and that's all?

wirelessaddict

06-18-2007, 01:43 AM

"qgil comentó:

We promise to keep developing the hacker edition. We allocated a budget for that. We contact the developer that has been working on the previous releases of the hacker edition. We agree that he will start working as soon as he is available. And this is the plan. Note that maintaining the hacker edition is not a task that anybody can do in their free time: it requires advanced skills, dedication and some business bureaucracy.
Freeing the sources would be a process between even slower and impossible now.
I think we are doing the best that we in realistic terms can we do. If you have feasible suggestions for improvement go ahead."

http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/356

Hope????

Luna

06-18-2007, 08:26 AM

Don't you feel better now? Nokia devoted the vast resources of a single developer when he becomes free.

Modulok

06-19-2007, 06:51 AM

Don't you feel better now? Nokia devoted the vast resources of a single developer when he becomes free.

Yes it seems to be nothing than a big joke. He also states the freeing the source would slow down the development.
Freeing the source is the only possibility of any further development here ...

Texrat

06-19-2007, 08:04 AM

Somehow I'm reminded of my 14 year old son, who complains no matter what a person tries to do for him...

fpp

06-19-2007, 08:26 AM

You're right that we shouldn't complain, Tex. After all, what exactly has Nokia done for us 770 users since january ?
Nothing, so nothing to complain about. Even *my* 12-year old son can't beat that one :-)

wirelessaddict

06-19-2007, 09:28 AM

Im not complaining, dont get me wrong I AM GREATFULL for what has been released thus far. I was just posting what I THOUGHT to be an update on the situation, nothing more.

phi

06-19-2007, 10:51 AM

i think its funny that the whole maemo division is probably smaller than some start-up companies. or at least that's how they make it seem.

Texrat

06-19-2007, 10:52 AM

Im not complaining, dont get me wrong I AM GREATFULL for what has been released thus far. I was just posting what I THOUGHT to be an update on the situation, nothing more.

I don't mean to suggest Nokia should be 100% off the hook. I just see a lot of messenger-shooting and bar-raising and wonder if enough will ever be done...

Regardless, I am on record here stating OS2006 bugs should be fixed. However, let's be specifc: we are talking 2007 hacker ed here.

Banner

06-19-2007, 02:30 PM

This is why I will never buy another nokia product again, and I will especially NOT buy the 800. They sold us a piece of sh*t that they never intended to support, and left us all hanging with 300 dollars of wasted money. Microsoft treats its customers better than Nokia does. They also write better software.

If that isn't a comment on the quality and customer care levels at Nokia nothing is. All those people saying how the 800 users will be treated better is just whistling past the graveyard. The graveyard full of us 770 users.

Texrat

06-19-2007, 03:27 PM

You're making a huge mistake slamming Nokia quality in general. I could actually agree with a more specific slam, though.

Karel Jansens

06-19-2007, 03:34 PM

You're making a huge mistake slamming Nokia quality in general. I could actually agree with a more specific slam, though.

It was a 6'3" slam, officer. Caucasian, dark hair, with a limp. It went that way. :rolleyes:

phi

06-19-2007, 04:15 PM

I think its ridiculous that the whole hacker edition hangs on one man's shoulders. so if he gets mono or something, we won't see another hacker edition til next year...if ever.

Texrat

06-19-2007, 08:58 PM

It was a 6'3" slam, officer. Caucasian, dark hair, with a limp. It went that way. :rolleyes:

That's more like it.

wirelessaddict

06-19-2007, 09:50 PM

I want to e-mail this guy and beg him to get on this hacker edition stuff. Hmmm, maybe he can be bribed with cookies and or.... more cookies......... perhaps.

fpp

06-20-2007, 03:25 AM

Yes. Nokia should relocate Maemo development to Brazil instead of moving people to Finland. The Brazilians are already doing all the good work anyway.

Hedgecore

06-20-2007, 02:57 PM

Seriously. I'm not expecting Nokia to allocate any of their very limited corporate budget (HahhaHahah... oh god, I'm crying.) to anything such as this but spit out a kernel that includes the 770 hardware modules and get it to boot to a shell.

dbpaddler

06-27-2007, 03:18 PM

so I've read a little about the 770 in the past (with no clue about these forums), and saw buy.com clearing it out knowing the 800 was released. I see it as current on Nokia's website so I'm figuring the 800 is just an improved model with better processing and internals, more memory, updated exterior, and better i/o capabilities. So I take the plunge for it on the cheap not really thinking much about not having the ability to return it as buy.com clearly stated that it can't be returned and that nokia will take care of any issues. Didn't think that was a problem as it's still a current product and has a one year warranty.

So now that I'm ready to dive into using this, I roam the net for forums and such, and I come across this place. Well all I am now is ticked off knowing I have an EOL'd product who's OS isn't compatible with its successor and has no real future of firmware updates. No mention of any of that on the Nokia site or the buy.com description. I'm all for buyer beware, but what about a little disclosure from the company about its intentions for the product?

Outside of the few philosophy posts claiming people are whining, it is not unreasonable to expect a product to be supported for more than a year, to be supported while it is still actively being sold and listed as current on their website. It is not unreasonable to assume that an updated OS for it's replacement should work on it as well. Maybe new features not on the 770 won't be operable, but the general core and feature set should be there. Most wm5 devices work with wm6 and that was supposedly a big deal of an upgrade. Why would a 06 and 07 in this case be such different animals? That part to me doesn't seem to make sense in all this back and forth. Unless there are specific hardware incompatibilities between the two, I can't imagine why they would improve the OS to alienate the previous model. That just doesn't make sense. And to hear their answers and depend on third party support for general problems and bugs is just nuts.

I think I'd be justified in sending my unit back to Nokia and demanding a full refund because it's almost fraud as nowhere in the descriptions on Nokia's or buy.com's sites mentioned the state of the product.

bac522

06-27-2007, 03:56 PM

I think I'd be justified in sending my unit back to Nokia and demanding a full refund because it's almost fraud as nowhere in the descriptions on Nokia's or buy.com's sites mentioned the state of the product.

You have valid arguments that we've all argued in the past. Even so the 770 in it's current state is a very usable product and by far my favorite gadget at the moment and the foreseeable future. The current firmware is good, sure there are some quirks but those quirks are not as common as some might lead to believe.

Unfortunately for Nokia it's too bad they treated 770 users as 2nd class citizens when they released the N800 and some of this "save face" blogs and such they've been trying to do lately with the 770 basically falls under the "too little too late" category. Therefore because of this I probably won't purchase an N800 or another Nokia product ever again and will wait for competitive alternatives that are expect to start appearing over the next 6-12 months.

Slakker

06-28-2007, 01:21 AM

I think fraud is quite a tall accusation. I'm all but positive that nowhere does the law require a company to disclose their intent to develop firmware updates at the point of sale. Nice try, though.

It makes perfect sense to me for them to develop a new OS for the new system. It's a new system...it SHOULD run a different operating system than the older model, it's new. I would assume that the new OS is optimized and designed specifically for the hardware changes made to the n800, so why have an officially maintained release for the 770?
As far as leaving it with bugs...does no one realize that every version of Windows (Or Mac OS, for that matter) ever released was buggy right up until the stores stopped stocking it? 98 was a mess, Millenium Edition was a nightmare, and people still using those systems (yes, there are some left) are stuck with little for tech support and nothing in the way of updates or fixes. Yes, this system appears to have had a blazingly fast turnover, but hardly criminal. This is a very young sector of home computing, and I would expect advances here to be pretty rapid.

So, as mad as you might be about the "injustice" you've suffered by purchasing the 770 without being notified beforehand that Nokia has no plans to release further firmware upgrades, consider this:

You just spent $130 on a gadget that, with a little work, has all the functionality (and then some) of other devices that cost three+ times as much, as well as a monstrous library of third party applications and mods that make this monster well worth the literal chump change you've dropped.

In short, though I haven't received mine yet, I don't think it's the disaster that some of you see it as. The 770 will still work, you'll still have a great piece of tech gear that will make even your nerdiest friends jealous, and there will still be a community out there devoted to furthering the development of the tablet. Besides, now that people can pick them up dirt cheap, perhaps some of the brave folk out there will come up with hardware mods that will blow us away.

Or maybe the TOS2006 source will be released to the public at large and the 770 will become truly open source, which will in turn solve world hunger and bring peace to all on earth.

Edit: After reading through all of the posts in this thread in all its...glory? I'm somehow compelled to point out that I've never owned anything but a Nokia cell phone, and probably never will. One of my phones was fully submerged in water and was working just fine when it came out. Another was hit by a full swing with a 9 Iron and was, once again, just fine. In my experience Nokia provides durable, high quality devices, and my experience with my most recent phone (the 6165i) is no different. I will continue to purchase Nokia phones exclusively...call me a Fanboy, but I love the darn things, and I can't imagine feeling any differently about the 770, future software support or not. After all, it does what I want it to straight out of the box...that's the entire reason I'm buying it. I've got my old desktop running Ubuntu for the benefits of a Linux distro's splendor...I want the tablet for just what it is, a ridiculously portable web browser that just happens to be usable for taking notes, watching movies, listening to music, and of course a bit of DOOM multi player during those boring classes.

airhurt

06-28-2007, 04:04 PM

I have been reading this forum for the last 6 months... I also have been closely watching this specific thread. I have to say, because of the Woot.com sale, I picked up 2 - 770s.

It is still a capable product and I think that even with some development issues, its worth it.

dementedlemur

06-29-2007, 04:47 PM

I just got my 770 today through the buy.com & GCO deal. Coming from handheld pc's and pocket PC's running windows CE, this is a big improvement in performance for me. Toshiba, Dell, HP, and pretty much any other company involved with Pocket PCs dropped support once their new devices came out. A few devices were offered upgrades to the next version, but most owners were stuck with a device that was no longer going to be supported.
At least something is being done with the 770 as far as development goes, even if it is an unofficial hacked version. If this device had a Windows CE variant on it there would be little if any hope of further developement.

Texrat

06-29-2007, 04:55 PM

You make a lot of sense for a demented lemur. ;)

Milhouse

07-04-2007, 08:20 PM

What is it with Scandinavian firms and their penchant to drop support for almost new products? ;) Sony Ericsson recently announced they were dropping support for the P990, M600 and W950i phones (the latter launched only in November 2006 - less than 9 months ago!)

All sounds earily familiar doesn't it? :)

After a big outcry, SE have now backtracked (http://developer.sonyericsson.com/thread.jspa?threadID=39963&start=360&tstart=0), promised one further update (only one, which isn't going down too well with the natives) and even a release date - now there's something Nokia could learn from their Swedish neighbours, release dates don't have to be kept a secret!

:D

AsteroidS

08-26-2007, 03:41 PM

wtf, if they can offer replacement for their faulty BL-5C battery, i dont see why they cant do a replacement for the design-flawed WSOD-ed 770. f*** nokia!

carbon

10-21-2007, 02:38 AM

GeneralAntilles

10-21-2007, 04:34 AM

Remember this thread? Still waiting for Nokia's "vapor-support" for the N-770 and they may soon be "vapor-supporting" the N-800. I notice that the N-700 still has an active page on their web-site.

Too bad, the N-810 may be a good product but I need longer than 9 months for $479 + tax plus + new hardware (mini-SD, 3 year subscription to a GPS service, etc)

Speaking of the 3 year GPS subscription, how can Nokia expect anybody to buy into that when they don't even support their products (the N-770) for that long?

First of all, the IT product line is as follows: 770, N800, N810. There are no N-770s or N-700s. Just like the i-Pod, N-800s do not exist.

Nokia has already stated that support for the N800 will continue at least through the next two major OS revisions (Chinook and Diablo). The mistakes of the 770 aren't something they're likely to make again. If the N810 doesn't suit you, buy an N800. It's a lot cheaper and just as fast.

benny1967

10-21-2007, 05:35 AM

wtf, if they can offer replacement for their faulty BL-5C battery, i dont see why they cant do a replacement for the design-flawed WSOD-ed 770. f*** nokia!

When I had problems with my 770 earlier this year, I got support from Nokia. So as a 770 owner, I feel they still support the device.

Why they should exchange it I dont know. What would you want in return?

mike-y

10-21-2007, 03:29 PM

you can always flash to OS2007HE, which will give you a few more options. There is also now a flash 9 upgrade that works for both os2006 and os2007he, so that's a plus.

the N810 is based on N800 architecture, so any future development for the n810 will work with the n800.

plus, because of open source development, you'll still see people tweaking on the 770 for some time still.

rs-px

10-22-2007, 06:54 AM

Because of open source development, you'll still see people tweaking on the 770 for some time still.

That's how Nokia should have handled this.

1) Announce that the 770 is no longer supported

2) Create a "Legacy Community Foundation" for the 770, and also future devices

3) Spend just a little cash designing a decent website for the new foundation, so that it has a good software repository, maybe a tutorials section, a forum etc.

4) Release all the source code, documentation, schematics etc to the community *

* I realise that some software packages are proprietary, such as Opera, but the operating system, kernel and associated files should be GPL. Remember that binary blob drivers can only be included if they're already-existing cross-platform code. Linus himself has said as much. I'm sure this must have already been investigated, but if Nokia is simply keeping back driver code that it doesn't want to release then it's contravening the GPL.

fanoush

10-22-2007, 08:34 AM

4) Release all the source code, documentation, schematics etc to the community *

* I realise that some software packages are proprietary, such as Opera, but the operating system, kernel and associated files should be GPL. Remember that binary blob drivers can only be included if they're already-existing cross-platform code. Linus himself has said as much. I'm sure this must have already been investigated, but if Nokia is simply keeping back driver code that it doesn't want to release then it's contravening the GPL.
That part about GPL is for lawyers. I think binary modules are tolerated, that's why the 'tainted' flag is there in kernel.

As for practical issues I guess nothing major will happen from Nokia side as for opening stuff. Opening stuff means throwing lawyers (and perhaps also developers) at the (dead) code. This would cost money and other resources. No reason to do this from their perspective.

The main pain is the wifi driver and partly also dsme. Other stuff would be nice but is mostly just for purists (booloader, bme).

For free/liberated device we would need to move freely to different kernel versions (from current old 2.6.16) which currently breaks dsme in initfs and wi-fi driver.

dsme does brightness control, kicking watchdogs and proxying access to config partition. We know how to kick watchdogs and control brightness but access to config partition would need some reverse-engineering. There are various flags stored there like r&d mode, root device, WLAN MAC address,... but the exact format is unknown (well, at least to to me)

Let's hope the hacker edition project will not die and move 770 to chinook and more recent linux kernel (i.e. they will not open the code but hopefully recompile those parts for us for newer kernel versions).

fanoush

10-22-2007, 08:47 AM

To sum it up - somewhat free system (like KDE, GPE) is possible without any major limitation if we stay with old kernel and non-free initfs partition (which loads bt and wlan firmware and spawns bme and dsme)

Fortunately brightness control and display blanking inside dsme can be controlled via dsmetest command in initfs.

rs-px

10-23-2007, 01:22 PM

That part about GPL is for lawyers. I think binary modules are tolerated, that's why the 'tainted' flag is there in kernel.

The main pain is the wifi driver and partly also dsme. Other stuff would be nice but is mostly just for purists (booloader, bme).

With respect, I don't think it's as simple as being allowed to include binary-only code if you declare it.

The official stance from Linus Torvalds seems to be that code derived from the Linux kernel must be licensed under the same terms. I can't see how a wifi driver could be developed from scratch without it being derived form Linux code, unless the developers are extremely good at guess work :)

This is why binary blobs are allowed, because they aren't derived. They're blobs of cross-platform code that an open source driver hooks into.

The same Nvidia binary blob is used on both Linux and Windows. It's just that the open source component of the Nvidia Linux driver hooks-into the binary blob, which is a chunk of code that exists entirely independently of the Linux kernel.

If Nokia is writing drivers from scratch specifically for the internet tablets, then the source code must be released under the GPL. There is no question about this.

Here's what Linus has said about this issue: "The reason I accept binary-only modules at all is that, in many cases, you have, for example, a device driver that is not written for Linux at all, but, for example, works on … other operating systems, and the manufacturer … wants to port that driver to Linux. But because that driver was obviously not derived from Linux (it had a life of its own regardless of any Linux development), I didn’t feel that I had the moral right to require that it be put under the GPL, so the binary-only module interface allows those kinds of modules to exist and work with Linux." (Taken from http://www.venturecake.com/the-vmware-house-of-cards/ -- see also http://kerneltrap.org/node/1735).

You might think that Nokia got lawyers to look at this from day one but bear in mind that many commercial companies completely misunderstand Linux, and assume it's like BSD -- that the code is free for people to take and they can keep bits of it secret. Many commercial companies have been caught out this way.