real (future) competition

[ioan]

http://gigaom.com/2007/04/12/future-of-intels-ultramobile-pc/

-i

[dcarter]

uhhh

you mean the "real" future
involves a 600-800 Mhz UMPC
running MS VISTA???

OS running VERY fast then, indeed.

/sarcasm

dcarter

[Milhouse]

I've read (can't remember where) that the best of Intels low power x86 processors still draws around 4w while an ARM CPU draws less than 0.4w - not difficult to work out which will last longer and need a smaller, lighter battery, and why the Intel-based UMPC will not compete with the N800 form factor for several years to come.

[Mixu]

Here's another link: http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Intel-to-launch-Linux-powered-mobile-Internet-device-/0,130061702,339274887,00.htm

"Dual-core processors clocked at 600-800MHz and capable of running Windows XP and Vista, Intel plans for the devices to run an embedded Linux OS but with a mix of open-source and proprietary code in the final products."

"MID tablets will run a simplified "finger-friendly" user interface optimised for the small screens, based on the Gnome desktop but with an Intel-developed "master user interface" layer to serve as an equivalent to the desktop."

[bill322]

I was just reading on the Intel MID devices as well. I think they may have the edge on performance, but can they keep the cost in the same range as Nokia's 770 and 800?

It sounds like they are shooting for a market somewhere between a UMPC and a PDA. To keep the costs down, they seem to be developing a Linux version very similar to Maemo. Something like "Red Flag" if I recall.

[Rebski]

I don't think there is much here that we haven't seen before but it does seem that we are quite close now to MID's based on Intel Silverthorne.

Personally I enjoyed watching these hands on demos of mockups and reference designs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGm3v856xnc

I want the one with the slide off keyboard.

[tso]

one interesting thing about those MID's:
http://www.moblin.org/

its using the hildon stuff from maemo even.

so it seems that while we may see competition on the hardware side, the software side may be code compatible.

[Rebski]

Does that mean that we might start to see a diverse selection of apps becoming available?

If there is a unified MID platform then it would be worth spending time developing for?

[YoDude]

http://gigaom.com/2007/04/12/future-of-intels-ultramobile-pc/

-i

I thought I would see more spandex and maybe a few jet packs in the future. :p


It seems their future involves carrying around a brick like device. I'm thinkin' the brick like devices would be stationary but plentiful. I'm hopin' that some universal standard could be developed so that all one needs is a device like that watch.
It would transmit this standard identifier that would allow the wearer to interact with the brick in his car, on the bus, at a kiosk, on a restaurant table... seamlessly using a personal GUI and personal data served up via a networked connection.

The dude with the watch walks away after manipulating his personal data and the connection is terminated. Then someone else with a watch walks up , gets in the car, or sits at the table and ZAP... up pops his personal GUI and data.

There would still be times when you would need your personal brick, but those times would diminish as more and more stationary bricks are deployed.

[Milhouse]

That universal standard already exists, it's called Bluetooth! :)

What that video shows me is devices interoperating wirelessly and seamlessly, such as a phone and pocket computer, or pocket computer and watch, or phone and watch/bracelet etc. This is all possible today, using Bluetooth. Palm called the Foleo a companion device, and while their implementation was questionable I think the concept is on the money. Nokia have the capability to bring this concept to market on a much larger scale than Palm.

[SD69]

Does that mean that we might start to see a diverse selection of apps becoming available?

If there is a unified MID platform then it would be worth spending time developing for?No disrespect to Nokia as the innovator, but if Intel does their marketing with MIDs, the (sub)segment will take off! (Much as I hated being bombarded with "Intel Inside" and those tones, they worked wonders for Centrino.) But the pessimist in me says that eventually an exec at Intel will see MIDs as eating into their Centrino 2 Duo laptop sales and kill (or sell off) the project.

[YoDude]

No disrespect to Nokia as the innovator, but if Intel does their marketing with MIDs, the (sub)segment will take off!...


Sure it will.

...and it won't have windows! :)

More and more I'm thinkin' Nokia's innovation is not so much the device but the OS these devices will use.

Every manufacturer is drooling over this "future" where everybody has a new type of device. A hell of a market to have just a slice of... and if everyone suddenly had the need to have another device, there will be plenty of pie to go around.

Microsoft should be running scared. How we interact with our data will change from the desk/laptop to one of these devices. With that, the preferred OS could change as well.
Before long people may begin to drop the desk/laptop altogether. Much like landlines are being dropped by cell customers who no longer see the need for both services.

Is LinTel the future of Maemo?

[m_sparks]

Have you checked out this benq running red flag/midinux - look just a bit bigger than the n800:

http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=906

wow.....if this is where things are headed, i can't wait for the next nokia IT...

[Khertan]

Intel MID will run under Ubuntu UME but ubuntu UME is just a debian with the hildon framework ... like nokia. The two os is the same things. It s a linux with same framework. The first for x86, and the last for ARM.

[ysss]

Does the benq come with a matching utility belt? :D

[tso]

more correctly the MID's will be running any distro that fulfills this set of requirements:
http://www.moblin.org/documentation_corerequirements.html

[Rebski]

Check out the very brief glimpse of a MID Gen2 device right at the end of the video interview
http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=921

[Milhouse]

That Gen 2 device is niiiiice... Nokia design department take note.

[Aisu]

Intel may really scratch an itch every geek is starting to feel, I think ;)

A finger-driven, desktop-level, Linux PC that can *almost* fit in your pocket.

I want one :)

[Rebski]

A bit more detail on one the forthcoming MID's

http://www.umpcportal.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=931

What's not to like?

[Texrat]

What's not to like?

...it does't help my career?

:eek: :D

[SD69]

Before long people may begin to drop the desk/laptop altogether. Much like landlines are being dropped by cell customers who no longer see the need for both services.

It will take a long time to cut into laptop sales (desktops will not happen that much), and it will not happen until after the handhelds have video out, TV-out or a projector type large display. I expect it would be TV-out first because it's already supported by TI arm and Nokia did it on the N95. I believe the largest effect of a big MID market would be to reduce the trend towards larger and more powerful cell phones. You will see some cell phones be smaller and designed to be used for voice only and to be tethered to a MID when computer type processing is desired.

[kingka]

I love where all this is heading

[Texrat]

Apple is already boasting that they will create the first highly-mobile device that supplies ALL your computing needs. I give development for such a thing at least 5 years. But I doubt any company is going to step aside and let Apple completely dominate... ;)

[ragnar]

That's device convergence for you. It's interesting how many different start points seem to be heading towards the same end point.

There's the thread of taking the desktop UI and software and trying to squeeze it down to a mobile format (like Origami, or Tablets to a lesser extent). Then there's taking the phone UI's and trying to expand them to be more capable in some of their functionalities. Or taking a PDA software and trying to expand that. Or starting from a rather new system (like Apple did with the iPhone [although it shares part of the code with the desktop]).

Ultimately... I would say that the device physical size becomes the determining factor. There is a clear need for something that you can carry around with you all the time - like your phone currently - and something a bit larger that will enable efficient working, like a laptop.

Personally I'm skeptical is there really a viable niche between these two form factors. I do see small laptop and large laptops, but I'm not sure about the hole between the phone and a small laptop. The UMPC's, like Samsung Q1 are basically too big to be pocketable but too small to be actually usable as laptop replacements.

[aflegg]

Personally I'm skeptical is there really a viable niche between these two form factors. I do see small laptop and large laptops, but I'm not sure about the hole between the phone and a small laptop. The UMPC's, like Samsung Q1 are basically too big to be pocketable but too small to be actually usable as laptop replacements.

Isn't that viewpoint somewhat heretical on your current project? ;-)

Having said that, I think I agree - with regards to the mass-market - there's a niche, and my requirements sit in it a lot of the time, but as you say, I dunno if it's viable.

[Texrat]

The N800 is *just* under typical UMPC size. It slips into almost every shirt and coat pocket I have (and some pants pockets). That's not by accident. ;)

But this is the scenario I envision: your main computer is small, iPod Touch small. On one end is access to say a card edge connector (or mini usb) that lets you plug this little thing into a laptop form... or a desktop form... or a car dash form... so basically you tote around an engine that has at least what the N800 + iPhone offer now in accessibility and the processing power of a decent laptop.

[aflegg]

The N800's small. Revo-sized small.

But it's still too big to carry around everywhere: I live in a country which has a bit of a summer, no room for an N800 when just wearing a t-shirt and shorts. And it's not got the necessary oomph to be more than a nice video player and a device for quick checking of Google/Wikipedia/email/maps on the move (which my phone can do too, adequately).

But anyway, your dream of a micro-computer (literally) which can be used as a desktop/laptop/UMPC/tablet is one I share. It's also the use case of the OQO.

[sjgadsby]

But this is the scenario I envision: your main computer is small, iPod Touch small. On one end is access to say a card edge connector (or mini usb) that lets you plug this little thing into a laptop form... or a desktop form... or a car dash form... so basically you tote around an engine that has at least what the N800 + iPhone offer now in accessibility and the processing power of a decent laptop.

Ah, back to the old IBM Meta Pad (http://domino.watson.ibm.com/comm/pr.nsf/pages/news.20020206_metapad.html).

[ragnar]

Isn't that viewpoint somewhat heretical on your current project? ;-)

Having said that, I think I agree - with regards to the mass-market - there's a niche, and my requirements sit in it a lot of the time, but as you say, I dunno if it's viable.

It's definitely not heretical. :)

I think there is a big fight over being the #1 device in your pocket, and being the #1 device in your suitcase/backpack. But I don't think there's a big fight over being the #1 device that doesn't really fit your pocket. Unless we're talking about an oversize belt clip for a device. Fortunately they are not in fashion here in Finland. ;)

[Texrat]

Ah, back to the old IBM Meta Pad (http://domino.watson.ibm.com/comm/pr.nsf/pages/news.20020206_metapad.html).

Wow, cool-- I never knew about that work! I feel so vindicated!

And yes, its time has (almost) come. :)

Aside to ragnar: I'm back in Helsinki this week. So glad the clouds cleared!

[barry99705]

Ah, back to the old IBM Meta Pad (http://domino.watson.ibm.com/comm/pr.nsf/pages/news.20020206_metapad.html).

There was another company, not too long ago that had something similar. Found it.

http://ouchmybrainhurts.com/Articles_/_Reviews/LockerGnome_Articles/Ultra_Personal_Computer_Roundup_-_Antelope/39/

[pixelseventy2]

But this is the scenario I envision: your main computer is small, iPod Touch small. On one end is access to say a card edge connector (or mini usb) that lets you plug this little thing into a laptop form... or a desktop form... or a car dash form... so basically you tote around an engine that has at least what the N800 + iPhone offer now in accessibility and the processing power of a decent laptop.

We were having this exact same discussion in work about the future of mobile devices. I was suggesting that in 5-10 years time, when wimax (or whatever) is promiscuous, we'll be carrying a portable device the size of the n800, but probably with the equivalent processing to a p4 4ghz. Out and about it will have a decent screen for checking email, browsing the interweb or whatever, but take it into your office and it will wirelessly bond with the monitor and keyboard/mouse on your desk (NFC maybe?) giving you full screen usability. Pick it up, take it home and put it by your TV and it will again bond allowing you to watch the movies on your 8terabyte SD card :) in full glory, or link to your hifi for wall-shaking volume.

Damn, I'm drooling again :) But in all seriousness, we're sooooo close. we've got bluetooth keyboards, and pdas with mobile graphics processors (HTC released a windows device with an nvidia chip in it). One little push and we're they're.

[tabletrat]

I doubt 5-10 years time, because 5-10 years ago we were all saying the same thing

[Texrat]

I doubt 5-10 years time, because 5-10 years ago we were all saying the same thing

Yeah, but this time we have good evidence that it's possible. ;)

Besides, if it happens in 5 years, a 10 year prediction is still valid. :D

[theflew]

There was another company, not too long ago that had something similar. Found it.

http://ouchmybrainhurts.com/Articles_/_Reviews/LockerGnome_Articles/Ultra_Personal_Computer_Roundup_-_Antelope/39/

I think Antelope brought the rights to the MetaPad. More pictures of the MetaPad look very similar to what Antelope is showing.

http://www.research.ibm.com/WearableComputing/MetaPad/metapad.html

[Sadavyk]

Competition like what? It cost a hell of a lot more there"s nothing out that can beat my n800 :) by price

[pixelseventy2]

I think the biggest obstacle we've got at the moment isn't price, or size, or cpu power. All these have been shown feasible (mostly) with the UMPC type platforms. The problem we've got is battery life. There have been a lot of press releases about "breakthroughs" in battery performance in the last 6-12 months, most of them talking about some kind of nano-tech. If any of these come to fruition then we're a BIG step closer to the dream. Tech like this (http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/17/wildcharger-wireless-charger-poised-for-pre-order/ ) is just going to make portable devices more practical.

And with the Antelope-type platforms, they're nice but I'd rather have the display permanently attached. Why plug the "core" into a screen? The device could automatically disable the in-built screen and upscale to a higher resolution; just like a laptop in a docking station.

[Texrat]

Something like the N800 should have 2 batteries like the one it currently uses. Both hot swappable. Period. IMO.

[trevarthan]

I just used an iphone recently for the first time. I'd so buy one if they supported third party apps, like SSH. The responsiveness in the UI is absolutely amazing. And the multi-touch is nice too.

So, IMO, the n800's market has been reduced to those of us who want to install third party apps as the ipod touch seems to be in direct competition with the n800 in every other respect. I suppose the n800 still holds some VoIP market potential too, but without SCO Bluetooth headset support, it's probably rather limited.

The n800's successor could compete, but it would need hardware 2D drawing support (and it would need to make heavy use of it in the UI) or a GPU to keep up with the iphone's interface, IMO. Currently, SDL draws with screen tearing on the n800 and it doesn't seem to support hardware accelerated 2d drawing as it's rather slow.

A GPU would be wicked sweet. And SCO and A2DP bluetooth audio built in to the firmware would be quite nice too.

[SD69]

Out and about it will have a decent screen for checking email, browsing the interweb or whatever, but take it into your office and it will wirelessly bond with the monitor and keyboard/mouse on your desk (NFC maybe?) giving you full screen usability. Pick it up, take it home and put it by your TV and it will again bond allowing you to watch the movies on your 8terabyte SD card :) in full glory, or link to your hifi for wall-shaking volume.
I agree that TV out would be a signficiant plus for the 2008 product. Nokia already did it on their N95, which I believe has an ARM chip very similar to that in the N800.

[pixelseventy2]

I agree that TV out would be a signficiant plus for the 2008 product. Nokia already did it on their N95, which I believe has an ARM chip very similar to that in the N800.

To be honest, I'd rather see VGA/DVI out first. At the moment I have a windows box in work which I use solely for checking email against the exchange server with. I think it would be great if I could connect my n800 to my KVM and use it to get my email with a big screen and keyboard, then pick it up and walk off for mobile email. That would keep my dev. machine purely for development and my mail/contacts/whatever portable.

Maybe Nokia could even start selling LCD TVs/monitors off the back of the N800, for people who want the internet at a decent resolution but don't want/need a full PC.

[SD69]

To be honest, I'd rather see VGA/DVI out first. So would I (and Nokia). But the ARM has HW support for TV out, so unless a new graphics chip gets crammed in there for other reasons, TV out is the way to go. It's not a bad compromise for the sake of cost and product development, LCD HDTV/monitors are mainstream now.

[Milhouse]

I just used an iphone recently for the first time. I'd so buy one if they supported third party apps, like SSH. The responsiveness in the UI is absolutely amazing. And the multi-touch is nice too.


SSH (Dropbear (http://iphone.fiveforty.net/wiki/index.php/Dropbear-ssh)) is already available for the iPhone/Touch - however it looks like a pain to setup and would most likely be broken with the next firmware update... hacking the iPhone/Touch will most likely be a constant game of cat & mouse, much as it is with Sony and the PSP. :(

[tso]

so instead, grab a 770 or N800, a bluetooth keyboard, a feature phone with bluetooth, and install dropbear.

[Rebski]

It is still at the rumourmill stage but if true and matches the artists impression then it could be a force to be reckoned with.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/26/is-apple-working-on-a-multi-touch-based-newton-successor/

[aflegg]

Nah, people will still claim it's not a competitor because it's only got one hardware button. The N800's got 12 - it's not even in the same league!

[rickh]

Nah, people will still claim it's not a competitor because it's only got one hardware button. The N800's got 12 - it's not even in the same league!
I didn't believe you until i actually went and counted, and...
well I'll be damned. There really are 12.

R.
==

[Karel Jansens]

Just to put things into perspective...

The Newton was discontinued by Jobs in 1998.

Rumours about a "new Newton" have been surfacing since... 1998.

[TA-t3]

.. and still it feels like my T3 has got more buttons.. but it's only got 7!

(but then again it's also got a 'reset hole' at the back, which my N800 never needs! Ha! ;))

[Roc Ingersol]

A 'new Newton' doesn't even make sense.
The only thing the touch/iphone lack, compared to a newton, is apps.
You don't need a different form factor for that - you need a change of philosophy. And that is one change I do not see coming down the pipeline.

If they were going to make a proper platform, they'd be better off with a subnotebook-sized multi-touch tablet running full OS X. At least that wouldn't cause as much confusion in their device topology. Lord knows they already have one head-scratcher in the form of the iPod touch. (I still have no idea who that thing is supposed to be for)

[Karel Jansens]

A 'new Newton' doesn't even make sense.
The only thing the touch/iphone lack, compared to a newton, is apps.

Any iPhone (<spit!>) based Apple PDA will also lack a proper stylus-based touchscreen. The Newton's forte was stylus operation, it won't even register finger presses.

The Newton's "metaphore" is a paper notepad, its entire user interface is geared towards that. You can't simply replace the stylus with fingers and claim "New Newton" (imagining for the moment Jobs would be stupid enough to commit intellectual harakiri that way).

You don't need a different form factor for that - you need a change of philosophy. And that is one change I do not see coming down the pipeline.

If they were going to make a proper platform, they'd be better off with a subnotebook-sized multi-touch tablet running full OS X. At least that wouldn't cause as much confusion in their device topology. Lord knows they already have one head-scratcher in the form of the iPod touch. (I still have no idea who that thing is supposed to be for)

Weirdly enough, OS X apparently allready has everything in place to become the O/S of a tablet: Inkwell is the evolutionary offspring of the Newton's HWR and those who have used it on an (illegally installed) Intel tablet, claim it's very good.

If I even liked OS X, I might have done the same thing; I have a tablet and everything needed to install OS X on Wintel hardware. But who knows, one day some dude might warez/hack Inkwell to run on Linux. I will not hesitate one picosecond to violate Apple's intellectual property rights to get such a doozy on a Linux tablet... :rolleyes: