Troubling N900 release progress

[me2000]

I find the progress of the development releases troubling as far as the N900 part of things is concerned.

According to the emails posted on the Meego-Dev group, we have the following progress as far as the N900 is concerned:

August 11th

* Image built successfully from the latest release repos.
* Image does not boot up on N900.

August 18th

* Image buildable from the release repos, armv7l binaries used as the gcc issues have now been fixed.
* Home screen now visible.
* Unable to launch browser (Bug 4021)
* Most other applications are launchable, HW keyboard is usable.
* WiFi is still unusable on the device, the fix is now in trunk,
should be available for use in tomorrow’s daily images.

August 25th

* A refreshed home UI with newer set of icons are in use.
* WLAN icon, Battery icon, Phone icons on the status bar visible.
* The device’s performance is initially a bit slow, most likely due to tracker running in the BG.
* The virtual keyboard shows up and works.
* Music player is missing from the application grid (Bug 5292).
* BT option shows up in setting, but is unusable.
* WiFi is still unusable on the device.
* Fennec does not launch (Bug 4021)

September 1

* WiFi works.
* Fennec does not launch (Bug 4021)
* VKB closes when tapping on certain buttons on it (Bug 5651)
* Problems with tracker slows down start up and does not show up default media in applications (Bugs 6095, 6162)
* Battery charging does not work, bug listed as fixed (Bug 2260)
* Music player is not present in the application matrix (Bug 5292)
* Realignment of the home screen based on accelerometer inputs work.

September 8th

* Image not buildable currently due to the absence of the latest Qt fixes in this release.


September 15th

* Image buildable, but the release was not made due to various critical outstanding issues.
* duihome crashes when app closed/minimized (BMC#6566)
* No theming available (BMC#6482)
* Unable to use wifi from UX because of missing plugin (BMC#6488)
* Fennec unstartable (BMC#4021)

I find the state of the N900 part of things troubling given that its supposed to release in October. Furthermore, I really find the lack of builds trouble. Build early, build often. If its broke, fix it so that at least some testing can occur.

Aside: I kinda thought that the N900 device would be of very high priority for Nokia and would receive a good portion of the focus. Yet it seems that other devices are getting more attention. Why is this ?

Thanks

[olighak]

I´ll believe the N900 runs Meego when I can do it myself.

We´ll see until then.

But I wouldn´t be surprised if it was a higher priority for Nikon to get Meego running on N900 than it is for Nokia.

[me2000]

But I wouldn´t be surprised if it was a higher priority for Nikon to get Meego running on N900 than it is for Nokia. I meant Nokia, not Nikon. I've was looking at camera specs today and I'm fried.

[olighak]

I meant Nokia, not Nikon. I've was looking at camera specs today and I'm fried.

I know :cool:

I do the same thing all the time.

[wmarone]

I find the state of the N900 part of things troubling given that its supposed to release in October.
Considering it's a reference platform and not a consumer release, I wouldn't get too excited. Additionally, it's unlikely you'll be running direct from the builds you see here anyway.

Furthermore, I really find the lack of builds trouble. Build early, build often. If its broke, fix it so that at least some testing can occur.
Built images are published once a week. You could always do your own builds at any time.

Aside: I kinda thought that the N900 device would be of very high priority for Nokia and would receive a good portion of the focus. Yet it seems that other devices are getting more attention. Why is this ?

Thanks
What other devices? The Aava handset has Intel's attention and the N900 is the focus of Stskeeps and a handful of other people. I say either sit back and wait, or start doing your own builds and follow it closely. Or better yet, if you can contribute with a bugfix then do so.

[ogre]

Yes, it is a real worry.
It is better for the n900 community if Meego is successful AND attractive to move to.

However it is even more important for Nokia, yet you wonder if they get it.

They will release a new meego device and slowly the market will build. However it will take some time for this to come close to matching the base of n900 users, and this base has a very high percentage of developers and influencers.

If meego runs well on the n900 then many from here will happily move and meego on phones will get some real momentum. It will cost a fortune of marketing to get even half the same momentum elsewhere but they will probably spend money that way and burn a lot of the n900 base

cost inefficient. and worrying for nokia's future

[arcticrobot]

I agree that Nokia needs to make MeeGo available for N900's just to take advantage of already established great community and gain momentum. My opinion, however, may be biased due to the fact I am a N900 owner. And I don't know the reasoning on the Nokia side, because for them to have N900 users happy with MeeGo and give it good publicity they will have to include all the proprietary bits(Skype and Ovi maps, for example).
For now all we can do is Learn to Stop Worrying and Love the Bo... Nokia. We can also use weekly released builds and report bugs, that's what I am doing currently.

[Darkshine]

I might be way out of the loop, but AFAIK Nokia aren't going to be supporting an N900 release of MeeGo and so there probably isn't much in the way of resources being thrown at it.

Personally I don't see what everyone is bothered about - Maemo works plenty okay on the N900 and supports QT for forward compatibility. Furthermore, I can't imagine a cap-touch designed UX would work all that great on the N900s screen and it won't take advantage of the stylus on the N900.

The only people I can think of that would want this for a sensible reason are people who like to toy with getting everything running on everything, and they'll participate in development if they're interested.

[Stskeeps]

I find the state of the N900 part of things troubling given that its supposed to release in October. Furthermore, I really find the lack of builds trouble. Build early, build often. If its broke, fix it so that at least some testing can occur.

Aside: I kinda thought that the N900 device would be of very high priority for Nokia and would receive a good portion of the focus. Yet it seems that other devices are getting more attention. Why is this ?

Thanks

You're tracking what is essentially development images - these will fly up and down occasionally due to changes. QA notes bugs and these are tracked and dealt with. Due to big changes because many features were late, image quality on both sides fly up and down. Also, we intentionally do public weekly images. In the team itself we do daily builds.

For Aava (Please disregard their 'executable rate' - it's absolutely bullcrap)

http://wiki.meego.com/File:TrendChart_Acceptance.jpg

For N900:

http://wiki.meego.com/images/AcceptancetestTrendchartforNOKIA_N900_20100917.JPG

Recently we've had to clean up a mess that was caused by 5 lines of shellscript, causing all C++ programs and libraries (Qt, etc) to be unoptimized on ARM. When we fixed this, it opened a serious pandora's box of issues that exists on X86 too but doesn't hit them as hard for various reasons. This is what has caused the problems with latest weekly releases. These are fixed now and should be reflected in next weekly.

[gerbick]

Learn to expect absolutely nothing but words and no action.

[Stskeeps]

Learn to expect absolutely nothing but words and no action.

You know what, how about you go and sit in #meego-arm in irc.freenode.net for a week and just watch all the work that's actually getting poured into this system on N900?

Sign up for meego-commits mailing list to see what's being pushed into the MeeGo system in general. Check daily test reports.

Until you've actually looked at the damn work being done, shut the f*** up about 'no action'

[gerbick]

You know what, how about you go and sit in #meego-arm in irc.freenode.net for a week and just watch all the work that's actually getting poured into this system on N900?

Sign up for meego-commits mailing list to see what's being pushed into the MeeGo system in general. Check daily test reports.

Until you've actually looked at the damn work being done, shut the f*** up about 'no action'

So... you want to take it personal, you asked for it...

How about you prove me the **** wrong buddy. Mer? Mer^2? This soon to be aborted approximation of a dead end?

Prove me wrong. I ****ing dare you.

[Stskeeps]

So... you want to take it personal, you asked for it...

How about you prove me the **** wrong buddy. Mer? Mer^2? This soon to be aborted approximation of a dead end?

Prove me wrong. I ****ing dare you.

I'm not in charge of MeeGo nor am I here to defend whatever Nokia does with their differentiation. Their choice. I'm working on MeeGo for N900 and I take offense by your statements that nothing is being done. As I've said before, this is nothing like Mer - a boatload of employees are paid to work on this, proper program management, release engineering, professionals, the works.

If you want to look at what work is being done:

http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-commits/

http://wiki.meego.com/images/MeeGo_Community_Metrics_August_2010.pdf

http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-releases/

http://trac.tspre.org/merbot/freenode/%23meego-arm/

http://wiki.meego.com/Quality/HandsetTestReport

If that's 'no action' then what is 'action'?

[gerbick]

Action is a finished product. Do not ever forget that in this regard, most will default to being a consumer first.

Any other personal insults you wish to sling my way? Or do you wish to list to lists, conversations, links that... well, show a lot of work, but ultimately supports what I said earlier... shows a lot of talking.

I know what you're doing is not a simple task; however after 3 years, even my patience has been worn down to nigh zero.

[Stskeeps]

Action is a finished product. Do not ever forget that in this regard, most will default to being a consumer first.

Any other personal insults you wish to sling my way? Or do you wish to list to lists, conversations, links that... well, show a lot of work, but ultimately supports what I said earlier... shows a lot of talking.

I know what you're doing is not a simple task; however after 3 years, even my patience has been worn down to nigh zero.

Conversations? Go look at the bloody statistics and commit messages (relating directly to work being done and included in the OS).

Action is a finished product agreed, but action is -also- the progress to get to there. You think Mobile OS'es get magically born in the sky and ready at birth?

Mobile OS'es are like sausages - you really don't want to see how they're done. And with MeeGo, you actually get to. With the broken images and releases, problems along the way. etc.

If you only care about final product, sign up for a releases list and until then, keep quiet - we're on a fixed release schedule, so no complaining about delays. Or learn to understand this is a product development phase and respect other people's work to make it a product and that it will look very ugly during the process.

[gerbick]

Care to answer one question. Can I install it and maintain the same level of functionality as I enjoy today?

[Stskeeps]

Care to answer one question. Can I install it and maintain the same level of functionality as I enjoy today?

No. MeeGo (.com) isn't a consumer-oriented product - it can't include MP3 codecs for legal reasons, too (just like Ubuntu). It might be installable, but not in there out of the box. This pretty much makes it unusable for Joe User (or gerbick?).

That said, like Ubuntu, it can be made usable. But that is an effort on top of MeeGo.com (feel free to roll your own distro or send patches to easily integrate those things)

Vendors, such as Nokia, take MeeGo, put differentiation on top (closed applications, themes, icons, app stores).

As a consumer, you'll want a Nokia-differentiated MeeGo.com-based system.

Is it possible to eventually port whatever Nokia-differentiation MeeGo.com-based system to N900 eventually? - on a strictly technical basis?

Two things here:

* Nokia-differentiation MeeGo.com-based system does not exist yet. We have Harmattan, which is Debian-based. We can't port what doesn't exist.

* Any differentiation on top of MeeGo.com would be in terms of codecs, applications, plugins, app stores.

This means that it is very likely that if a Nokia-differentiation MeeGo.com-based system existed, it would run on N900 by simply adding in the packages.

And last of all:

It isn't my job to give you this.

There's still a fair play agreement regarding Nokia binaries on Nokia devices in place and whoever wants to do the job is welcome to do it when there is a Nokia-differentiation MeeGo.com-based system. It'll probably be a matter of recompiling source packages (if even needed) and adding them to a MIC2 kickstart file.

My job is (together with the rest of the team) to make MeeGo for N900 hardware adaptation great and stable - a technical job.

This means that the reference dialer must be able to make actual phonecalls and receive them. That the reference video player will play Theora videos. That the browser (Fennec) will work over 3G and WiFi. That you can send and receive SMS'es. That battery charging works. That the kernel patches are maintained and upstreamed and kernel kept in shape. That both cameras can be accessed and used. That I can listen to oggs in a reference media player.

And many more things.

As Stskeeps, the consumer:

I don't personally understand why people are so hung up on Nokia's closed source apps, I mean, they're not the greatest.

I hope MeeGo changes the landscape and it is possible to download from Adobe 'Flash Player for MeeGo Handset ARMv7'. But all of those things are out of my hands but I'm seeing impressive change when it comes to many closed source bits and licensing/redistributability and I can only hope it continues.

[gerbick]

No.

Then as a consumer, I will stand by my original stance whether you like it or not. Until that answer above changes in a manner that convinces me that it is a "Yes", then I may be as I were earlier - hopeful, yet able to point to nothing that's completed as of yet.

If you still somehow take offense to that, refer back to my first response to you.

As a developer, that's a total different subject. However - and I'm going to add a new perspective - as a businessman, I depend upon my phone and the ability to answer it to make my payroll. Not to compile, not to hit up a website we've developed in Adobe Flex via AS3 and requires Adobe Flash Player 10.x.x.x - and as it stands, I'm looking at a lot of fail there too.

Not usable for Joe User? Not usable to gerbick? Not usable unless you've been employed by Nokia it sounds like.

Or not usable if you're actually a person that uses the N900 as a phone.

[Stskeeps]

Then as a consumer, I will stand by my original stance whether you like it or not. Until that answer above changes in a manner that convinces me that it is a "Yes", then I may be as I were earlier - hopeful, yet able to point to nothing that's completed as of yet.

If you still somehow take offense to that, refer back to my first response to you.

No, we're on the same page now - as long as we both keep this discussion in mind when discussing MeeGo for N900.

[gerbick]

No, we're on the same page now - as long as we both keep this discussion in mind when discussing MeeGo for N900.

I'm still reeling from the prior attack. It made absolutely no sense; still doesn't. However, as it stands, I stand by how I was corrected earlier... and the confusion is not only mine about which build, which OS, which direction support will come from the (official) MeeGo vs. MeeGo (community) vs. MeeGo-Harmattan (if that's different from the prior option, hell if I know)... I'm not the only person that's confused a bit.

Nor am I the only person that wants updates to the next level of something either. And guess what? I'm probably going to be even more vocal because I'm an N900 owner now.

[Stskeeps]

As a developer, that's a total different subject. However - and I'm going to add a new perspective - as a businessman, I depend upon my phone and the ability to answer it to make my payroll.


Well, I'm a businessman too, so it matters to me as well - and I'm mighty irritated at the problems experienced in Fremantle.

We have the call audio feature ready, for what it matters - still remaining to be integrated into released images. (http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Features/CallAudio)

I'm capable of using it for succesfully dialing into a teleconference with DTMF and all. I had a full conversation with decent call quality (honest) with someone else from this forum. That it came out the speakers instead of earpiece is another thing :)

What I hope we'll get to within 1.2 is a state where it's possible to use MeeGo on N900 as your primary device for typical smartphone needs. Browsing, calls, SMS and accelerated media playback.

I plan to start the dogfood approach and use MeeGo on N900 myself as well..

But I've learnt not to oversell things, so, let's see what happens. I hadn't a year ago expected us to make a call using only open source software.

[Stskeeps]

I'm still reeling from the prior attack. It made absolutely no sense; still doesn't. However, as it stands, I stand by how I was corrected earlier... and the confusion is not only mine about which build, which OS, which direction support will come from the (official) MeeGo vs. MeeGo (community) vs. MeeGo-Harmattan (if that's different from the prior option, hell if I know)... I'm not the only person that's confused a bit.

Nor am I the only person that wants updates to the next level of something either. And guess what? I'm probably going to be even more vocal because I'm an N900 owner now.

I was feeling offended that you suggested no action is being done. That we had different perceptions on the meaning of 'action' is obvious.

We've spent a very long while keeping MeeGo ARM in shape and most importantly, MeeGo on N900 - often firefighting, keeping long nights, etc. And hence you can imagine it feels a bit insulting when someone claims nothing is being done.

Some things we do agree on:

I wouldn't mind if the confusion between Harmattan and MeeGo.com didn't exist. It makes discussions hell as people often don't share the same perception of what we're actually talking about.

I wouldn't mind if there was a proper update regiment for N900 and PR's with additional features in them. Even though that simple bug fixing for a lot of issues would be nice.

To keep things exact:

There's no MeeGo (community) vs MeeGo (official) - if it's on meego.com, it's official MeeGo.

(to the clever observer: yes, we have images on tablets-dev right now. All the closed bits are supposed to be in non-oss and redistributable by 1.1 release)

There will be <company name> MeeGo, such as SuSE MeeGo, Nokia MeeGo (uncertain if this will be the term), which means MeeGo + differentiation from <company name>

There could even be "iTT" MeeGo which is MeeGo platform + things to sweeten the deal for Nokia N8x0/N900 users..

[jsa]

I'm still reeling from the prior attack. It made absolutely no sense; still doesn't.

So you're surprised that a person working his a** off daily as a part of a team to bring MeeGo on your N900 is offended when you imply they're not actually doing anything but talking?

Maybe you should actually do some research yourself instead of spewing FUD until someone gets pissed off enough to spoonfeed you with proof that action is actually being taken?

[ScottishDuck]

I'm still reeling from the prior attack. It made absolutely no sense; still doesn't. However, as it stands, I stand by how I was corrected earlier... and the confusion is not only mine about which build, which OS, which direction support will come from the (official) MeeGo vs. MeeGo (community) vs. MeeGo-Harmattan (if that's different from the prior option, hell if I know)... I'm not the only person that's confused a bit.

Nor am I the only person that wants updates to the next level of something either. And guess what? I'm probably going to be even more vocal because I'm an N900 owner now.

Boo Hoo, I want I want. Cut the crap, you are entitled to nothing. The good people at Nokia don't need to give you anything and Stskeeps certainly doesn't need to reply to anything you post.

Just feel lucky that MeeGo is coming to N900 rather than crying like a spoilt child.

[Laughing Man]

So you're surprised that a person working his a** off daily as a part of a team to bring MeeGo on your N900 is offended when you imply they're not actually doing anything but talking?


I have to agree with jsa (at least this part) Gerbick. You should know this as a Flash developer. That alot of time, energy, sweat, and tears gets invested into a project and whether or not it gets canned, criticized, etc.. can be a sensitive point. I also understand that projects have been ended due to a roadblock or lack of interest (believe me, I was looking forward to Mer for the n800).

I say that as someone who does Human Factors and HCI (Usability) work and occasionally dwelves into development when nobody else can do it (or the sponsors are busy). And we often write our recommendations as nicely as possible knowing the amount of time people invest into their work.

[Stskeeps]

Now - me and gerbick had different perspective on the word 'action', let's not start a framewar here. I consider the discussion done and settled from my point of view and I think gerbick thinks the same.

Let's not turn into a raving mob with pitchforks.

[cenwesi]

come on...please continue this fight... this is the only way we would REALLY now what is going on with N900 and Nokia. Thank you Stskeeps for some insight. So Meego is really coming to N900 after all.

Stskeeps: Is the October deadline still possible?

[Stskeeps]

come on...please continue this fight... this is the only way we would REALLY now what is going on with N900 and Nokia. Thank you Stskeeps for some insight. So Meego is really coming to N900 after all.

Stskeeps: Is the October deadline still possible?

It has to be, fixed release cycle.

<insert usual disclaimer that MeeGo for N900 is not a Nokia product nor contains shiny commercial bits. MeeGo == meego.com, a open source project>

[Frappacino]

until its out and WORKING on my phone with features I can use in a polished state that is reliable then sorry to us non devs all this chit chat is nothing.

Gerbick is absolutely correct - this is what the n900 experience taught us - Nokia can drop projects at anytime without explanation and just guive silence even though to us consumers the drop does not make sense - your paid Nokia employees can be yanked off at anytime without explanation. So us consumers have learnt to EXPECT NOTHING until stuff is actually released to run on our phones

as often repeated on this forum only get the n900 for what it is NOW noit what u hope it CAN be based on promises - gerbick was only being consistent with this rule as we have learnt from our n900 experience

[wmarone]

until its out and WORKING on my phone with features I can use in a polished state that is reliable then sorry to us non devs all this chit chat is nothing.
That's fine, ignore it. This release is for developers in the end, anyway.

Gerbick is absolutely correct - this is what the n900 experience taught us - Nokia can drop projects at anytime without explanation and just [give] silence even though to us consumers the drop does not make sense - your paid Nokia employees can be yanked off at anytime without explanation. So us consumers have learnt to EXPECT NOTHING until stuff is actually released to run on our phones
Considering this is in no way an official release I don't see what you're getting all antsy about.

as often repeated on this forum only get the n900 for what it is NOW noit what u hope it CAN be based on promises - gerbick was only being consistent with this rule as we have learnt from our n900 experience
Gerbick, with all due respect, was speaking from ignorance. The N900 image has been making good progress and he suggested nothing was happening. You're certainly not making yourself appear any better, and using this as a platform from which to attack Nokia is pointless.

[buchanmilne]

until its out and WORKING on my phone with features I can use in a polished state that is reliable then sorry to us non devs all this chit chat is nothing.


Then you may want to ignore all threads in this section of the forum, it is currently *all* about what you would perceive as vapour-ware, as what is currently available doesn't satisfy your requirements, but is entirely on-topic for this section of the forum.

But, posts from users expecting a polished product now are just adding unnecessary noise at present.