Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like pissing in your pants for warmth

[imperiallight]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/21/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-anssi-vanjoki-says-using-android-is-like-pe/

Oh dear. Better have something to back that up with...

[alienhead]

I agree with him, because if every phone has the same experience, then whats the point?

[quipper8]

from a company's standpoint, that is exactly what it is like

I mean, you are sacrificing all of your possible margin on OS to a third party, so yes, while you may sell more phones in the short term(the warmth), soon enough there will be many many more competitors with nearly the same thing and you will be lost in a sea of cheap hardware with little to distinguish youself(the wet cold that comes after)

companies hopping on android are basically selling their souls to google, and google is very good at soul-sucking

[imperiallight]

So you are saying proprietary is the way to go?

Like big, bad Apple?

[ysss]

Well.... if it's sub zero out there and you're not dressed enough... it may be a matter of survival.

[Texrat]

So you are saying proprietary is the way to go?

Like big, bad Apple?

Maybe there's another alternative...

*cough* MeeGo *cough*

[johnel]

Maybe there's another alternative...

*cough* MeeGo *cough*

Pardon Mee going repeat that?

[yorg]

Excuse me if I sound ignorant, but isn't this what nokia wanted (wants) to do with Symbian/Maemo/Meego?

[imperiallight]

Excuse me if I sound ignorant, but isn't this what nokia wanted (wants) to do with Symbian/Maemo/Meego?

This is what I thought as well. Its typical Orwellian Animal farm if you ask me. But its only my opinion.

[Texrat]

Excuse me if I sound ignorant, but isn't this what nokia wanted (wants) to do with Symbian/Maemo/Meego?

No, it isn't.

[lancewex]

Excuse me if I sound ignorant, but isn't this what nokia wanted (wants) to do with Symbian/Maemo/Meego?

I'd have to say no.
Nokia has 2 mobile OSs currently that they at least partially assist in developing. Android is one that others rely on Google to develop. Seems pretty different to me.
It's the potential for choice that matters.

[imperiallight]

No, it isn't

Really, so they don't want to allow others to use the OS on their phones, cars, netbooks etc?

[Texrat]

Really, so they don't want to allow others to use the OS on their phones, cars, netbooks etc?

You're misconstruing the conversation.

[gerbick]

Now see... THIS is the kind of statement that should be coming out more regularly. Sure, it may look bitter, but damn it's a ton better than silence.

[gerbick]

Maybe there's another alternative...

*cough* MeeGo *cough*

I would agree... but it's another short-term solution under a different name using (parts) of Linux to ramp up the speed and familiarity of their offerings.

Google controls Android, true. But in the end, if you adopt MeeGo, it's not an internally derived solution either.

Regardless... I love this kind of **** talking. It tends to bring out the best/worst in their offerings.

[Texrat]

I would agree... but it's another short-term solution under a different name using (parts) of Linux to ramp up the speed and familiarity of their offerings.

Is it a foregone conclusion to you that MeeGo is a short-term solution? If so, what would need to be done to make it long-term? (and in the short product lifecycles we have these days I'm not even sure what those terms mean any more...)

[gerbick]

Is it a foregone conclusion to you that MeeGo is a short-term solution? If so, what would need to be done to make it long-term? (and in the short product lifecycles we have these days I'm not even sure what those terms mean any more...)

It's not a foregone conclusion that it is indeed a short-term solution in total; however let's be honest. GM, BMW and the other auto manufacturers that are using it (for instance) would not have been able to deploy a custom, from the ground-up OS with a modular/changeable UI and a steady community to back it up in months or even years.

So yeah... it shortened the dev time considerably in that application.

And let's be honest, if Samsung hadn't released their Galaxy S series as well as their other Android based offerings... they would still be waiting for Bada to come out in full-swing and no new product being produced, shown or talked about and in people's hands yet.

So... yet another short-term solution, imho.

To make MeeGo into a long-term solution, I'd have to say the underpinnings are their. Intel/Nokia is still superceded (I'm assuming here) by the Linux Foundation and ultimately it's a "distro" that means it is accessible by the public. But how that will work out from theory to actual deployment... we've yet to see. All other embedded systems have had bottlenecks in terms of control.

We'll see...

[Texrat]

Ok, gerbick, I think we're using "short-term solution" very differently. In my (engineering) experience it translates to "workaround", "stopgap", etc. You seem to be using it to mean "FAST solution".

Technically anything Linux-based is fairly future-proof, making it long-term (by my understanding of the term).

[gerbick]

Ok, gerbick, I think we're using "short-term solution" very differently. In my (engineering) experience it translates to "workaround", "stopgap", etc. You seem to be using it to mean "FAST solution".

Technically anything Linux-based is fairly future-proof, making it long-term (by my understanding of the term).

Ah. No, not a stopgap measure - even Samsung's Android move wasn't really "stopgap" because they've expanded it from niche product to full-featured line.

If Nokia went to Android, that would be a stopgap measure - if MeeGo is delayed, for instance.

I tend to use stopgap (think: duct tape) totally different than short-term (think: catalyst) due to how I've historically used frameworks to expedite my projects. Stopgap would have been to hard code all of the data (which... been there, done that too).

I would agree that anything based on Linux is somewhat future-proof... but Maemo 4.1 and Maemo 5 with their closed bits seem to be real dead ends. Thanks to Nokia, I now start to doubt that prior assumed truth that Linux based meant truly open-ended futures.

[bsving]

I would agree... but it's another short-term solution under a different name using (parts) of Linux to ramp up the speed and familiarity of their offerings.


No, its the future. A stable linux core constantly under development that accept any UI you put on it. Symbian^3 is the same thing, but more efficient, and therefore better suited for phones.

[Rauha]

This was on Finacial Times last week. Here's the actual non-Engadgetifield quote:

"Mr Vanjoki agreed with suggestions that handset makers using Android could have low operating margins and claimed they were likely to enjoy only temporary relief with Google’s operating system. He compared the companies to Finnish boys who “pee in their pants” for warmth during the cold winter."

[Texrat]

I would agree that anything based on Linux is somewhat future-proof... but Maemo 4.1 and Maemo 5 with their closed bits seem to be real dead ends. Thanks to Nokia, I now start to doubt that prior assumed truth that Linux based meant truly open-ended futures.

MeeGo means Linux Foundation much, much more than it means Nokia. ;)

[gerbick]

No, its the future.

I said it earlier... but I doubt that the future would be so filled with dead ends. Nokia has sorta killed my enthusiasm in anything Linux based and has forced me to research for how much of it is closed.

It's "a" future. Not "the" future. I'll take my future with more openness and a more determined path (think: Maemo).

[gerbick]

MeeGo means Linux Foundation much, much more than it means Nokia.

Let's hope it's not cocked up due to some in-fighting or idiocy... or lack of direction.

[lma]

Let's hope it's not cocked up due to some in-fighting or idiocy...

in certain areas (http://wiki.meego.com/Quality/Compliance) there are strong indications it will be, and it may surprise you to hear this but the Nokia side seems to be the good guys.

[Andrew_b]

With all due respect to you Gerbick, I think most of us would have read 'Short-term' pretty much the same as 'Stop-gap' only with more dire consequences for the future outcome.

Hence the expression 'Short-termism' being a negative concept for business. Short term gains traded off against long term stability, etc.

[danramos]

He's made it far too easy for someone to come back with "PeeGo" :P

For that matter, isn't using Android on your phone allowing you to concentrate on the business of building your hardware or your telecom network? You know--like a restaurant franchise lets you concentrate on business and less so on brand, advertising and so on?

[Rauha]

Well.... if it's sub zero out there and you're not dressed enough... it may be a matter of survival.

Indeed.
You won't survive, if you do it.

[sjgadsby]

For some reason, I'm suddenly feeling the urge to go play On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

[ysss]

Indeed.
You won't survive, if you do it.

But there's a Yeti somewhere in this blizzard.

And we need to fabricate yellow blades to fight it.

[danramos]

MeeGo means Linux Foundation much, much more than it means Nokia. ;)

That might mean very little if you depend on a Nokia image for your Nokia device. We'll have to see some tangible results before I buy this story after our history here.

[danramos]

This was on Finacial Times last week. Here's the actual non-Engadgetifield quote:

"Mr Vanjoki agreed with suggestions that handset makers using Android could have low operating margins and claimed they were likely to enjoy only temporary relief with Google’s operating system. He compared the companies to Finnish boys who “pee in their pants” for warmth during the cold winter."

Hold on. Is this a common thing with kids in Finland? o.O Maybe he's not quite the wordsmith this company needs speaking on its behalf?

[Ayle]

I blazed through the comments on the article and I don't get it.... No one is screaming at RIM to ditch BBOS and go Android so why on Earth are they so vocal about Nokia doing it?

[danramos]

I blazed through the comments on the article and I don't get it.... No one is screaming at RIM to ditch BBOS and go Android so why on Earth are they so vocal about Nokia doing it?

Probably because RIM has managed to secure a successful niche?

[yorg]

Really, so they don't want to allow others to use the OS on their phones, cars, netbooks etc?

Yeap! That's what they are doing.

[JulmaHerra]

Hold on. Is this a common thing with kids in Finland? o.O Maybe he's not quite the wordsmith this company needs speaking on its behalf?

It's not common practice among kids (well, few drunkards actually do that when they have "had enough" :p ),however it's common proverb in Finland. Meaning that you have to have long term solution to problem, not a hasty workaround that is likely to harm you in the long run. It sounds a bit funny when translated to english, especially for people who haven't experienced very VERY cold winters... :)

[yorg]

I'd have to say no.
Nokia has 2 mobile OSs currently that they at least partially assist in developing. Android is one that others rely on Google to develop. Seems pretty different to me.
It's the potential for choice that matters.

Can you elaborate more on how this makes any difference? The end goal is to create one or more OS for mobile devices. How is a company that adopts Android in any different shape than a company that adopts Symbian or Meego?

It doesn't matter how many parties are used to develop the OS. It is one product they are working for and their aim is to dominate the market with that product, otherwise what's the point of even trying.

[daperl]

You know--like a restaurant franchise lets you concentrate on business and less so on brand, advertising and so on?

Sounds about right: Android is the McDonalds of phone OSes.

[wmarone]

Can you elaborate more on how this makes any difference? The end goal is to create one or more OS for mobile devices. How is a company that adopts Android in any different shape than a company that adopts Symbian or Meego?
Because Google has a vested interest in getting their name on your platform, and their services to users via your platform.

Right now all the vendors run a tight gauntlet with Google, balancing pushing them under the covers for the OS that they've delivered, but also keeping them at enough of a profile that they continue to invest and develop the platform. Push them under enough and they'll quit. Let them take over and your identity as a brand is subdued by theirs.

With MeeGo, you attain compliance with a certain software base but the branding is all yours. Contribute to the core OS development, which is coordinated by a singularly focused 3rd party, in the open, with no extended leverage possible by one party, and you end up with something much more useful to the marketing robots who are charged with selling your stuff.

None of the hardware vendors (Samsung, Motorola, Nokia) want to play pure hardware vendor as that's almost a commodity market. They want to play the role of services vendor, which is hard to do when your OS vendor also wants to provide it.

[rickysio]

Well guess what Mr Vanjoki?

HTC, Samsung and Motorola have already purchased diapers, so...

/sarcasm.

[Rauha]

Sounds about right: Android is the McDonalds of phone OSes.
And becoming the Wintel of phones from manufacturers point of view, except for the fact that Google sells the ink cartridges on Android.

HTC seems to be taking first steps out of Google's "All your non-harware revenue are belong to us" trap with Google Maps alternative. Will be intersting to see how it goes.

[qwazix]

Can you elaborate more on how this makes any difference? The end goal is to create one or more OS for mobile devices. How is a company that adopts Android in any different shape than a company that adopts Symbian or Meego?

It doesn't matter how many parties are used to develop the OS. It is one product they are working for and their aim is to dominate the market with that product, otherwise what's the point of even trying.

That is exactly the difference Nokia is not a company that adopts Symbian or MeeGo. It's a company that develops them. And they also produce hardware. Google and Microsoft also tried to venture in the hardware market (Nexus was made by HTC alright but it was a google branded phone - who knows what the plan was) but failed miserably.

I can assume that the place that nokia is (hardware vendor with it's own software and software vendor for others at the same time) is where everybody wants to be.
Ms Kin, Google Nexus, and Samsung Bada all smelled like that. Bada is the last one alive...
________
01SmilyBlonde (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/01SmilyBlonde/)

[ysss]

Just business as usual.

Google isn't dumb. Samsung isn't dumb. htc isn't dumb.
Being Android 'serfs', they certainly get plenty of benefits too.

Sure, if Nokia can take off with S*3/4 and/or MeeGo, then their potential gain is high. That is, IF they can pull something off that they've failed to do for the past few years again and again.
Then there's Ovi. And their constant internal flux.

And Apple, Google and RIM are not standing still either.

It's a tough winter out there.

Nokia may pee in their pants if they can't control themselves.

[yorg]

That is exactly the difference Nokia is not a company that adopts Symbian or MeeGo. It's a company that develops them. And they also produce hardware. Google and Microsoft also tried to venture in the hardware market (Nexus was made by HTC alright but it was a google branded phone - who knows what the plan was) but failed miserably.

I can assume that the place that nokia is (hardware vendor with it's own software and software vendor for others at the same time) is where everybody wants to be.
Ms Kin, Google Nexus, and Samsung Bada all smelled like that. Bada is the last one alive...

So if google also made its own hardware, the adopters of Android would not be "peeing in their pants to warm up" any more?

Nokia wants others to adopt Symbian as much as Google wants others to adopt Android. The matter of choice will of course always be there, unless Google manages to produce such a strong offering that no other OS can survive.

There are more things than just the OS to differentiate a device after all.

To me Anssi's statement sounds like a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

[daperl]

HTC seems to be taking first steps out of Google's "All your non-harware revenue are belong to us" trap with Google Maps alternative. Will be intersting to see how it goes.

Yes, I think Google's true colors are a question mark, but I think we'll have good answers by the end of 2011.

For the sake of argument, let's say Google is evil. By evil, I mean Embrace Extend Extinguish. Then the question is, how are they different from Microsoft? For me, it's because they learned from Microsoft's biggest mistake: You actually have to be better than the other guy.

Google is full steam ahead, but they know how to admit mistakes and regroup. Google Wave is a great example; it was a bit too much and they nuked it. Now, it looks like they're taking the useful pieces and reformulating them.

So, I don't know yet whether they're good or evil, but they seem to know the difference between the right and wrong way to do things. And it all trickles down from the top. The ego, or lack there of, of a CEO is always telling.

[ragnar]

I think Anssi - love his choice of wording btw - is fairly right. He of course means mostly manufacturers, not the end users. Especially if Google goes through with their purpoted plans with 3.0 Gingerbread UI of eliminating the possibilities of device manufacturers to create their own custom UI's, the game for the manufacturers very quickly comes down to who can create the cheapest appealing hardware running the same software. Similar to what happened in the desktop world a long time ago. Companies like HTC especially would not like that at all, since they want to create 'additional value' - i.e. more expensive devices to sell - through customizing the default Android experience.

[Capt'n Corrupt]

This article is ridiculous. To say that a single-OS/multi-device strategy doesn't work from a profitability standpoint is to ignore the last two decades of Windows computers, and the respective companies producing them that have come to dominate the industry.

With this level of 'foresight' it's not surprising he was fired.

[daperl]

I think Anssi - love his choice of wording btw - is fairly right. He of course means mostly manufacturers, not the end users. Especially if Google goes through with their purpoted plans with 3.0 Gingerbread UI of eliminating the possibilities of device manufacturers to create their own custom UI's, the game for the manufacturers very quickly comes down to who can create the cheapest appealing hardware running the same software. Similar to what happened in the desktop world a long time ago. Companies like HTC especially would not like that at all, since they want to create 'additional value' - i.e. more expensive devices to sell - through customizing the default Android experience.

Well, then your analogy fails. I don't remember Dell, Gateway, Acer, ..., etc. rewriting the MS Windows UI.

[geohsia]

This article is ridiculous. To say that a single-OS/multi-device strategy doesn't work from a profitability standpoint is to ignore the last two decades of Windows computers, and the respective companies producing them that have come to dominate the industry.

With this level of 'foresight' it's not surprising he was fired.

Yes and no.

I think understanding that the computer market has been commoditized and that profits are shrinking because everyone is selling the same thing is a challenge. It is in this environment though that Apple is able to charge so much. A) because they do make nice product and B) because it isn't Windows. That's Nokia's challenge, bring differentiation and quality. We'll see if they can do that.

In the Android market, the reason there is so much fragmentation is because there are so many players. They have to stand out from every other Android vendor. Nokia if they joined Android would undoubtedly have to do the same, so Android or not, there's still plenty of work to be done, though presumably not as much with Android.

The bottom line for me is, I think it would be nice for Nokia to run Android, but I think the mobile market is still young enough that they can take another big player. The market is still developing. Cloud services are still being worked on. It's too early to call game over.

If after MeeGo releases, everything goes south and no one buys one S^3 or MeeGo phone, how long would it take for Nokia to crank out Android phones? For them, probably not very long. I just don't think they're done fighting.

[ragnar]

Well, then your analogy fails. I don't remember Dell, Gateway, Acer, ..., etc. rewriting the MS Windows UI.

They're not (well, except some of them do try to cram on their additional 'useful' pieces of software on top of the OEM builds). But that's the game that they're then playing: the profit margins are much lower than what is currently achieved through selling mobile devices. There are a gazillion smaller manufacturers all competing for the same piece of pie.

I'm not sure many companies like HTC or Samsung or Motorola want to turn out to be the new Acers and Gateways (no disrespect to those companies as such).

It'll be very interesting to see anyway what Google does in 3.0.

[Capt'n Corrupt]

Yes and no.

I think understanding that the computer market has been commoditized and that profits are shrinking because everyone is selling the same thing is a challenge. It is in this environment though that Apple is able to charge so much. A) because they do make nice product and B) because it isn't Windows. That's Nokia's challenge, bring differentiation and quality. We'll see if they can do that.

In the Android market, the reason there is so much fragmentation is because there are so many players. They have to stand out from every other Android vendor. Nokia if they joined Android would undoubtedly have to do the same, so Android or not, there's still plenty of work to be done, though presumably not as much with Android.

The bottom line for me is, I think it would be nice for Nokia to run Android, but I think the mobile market is still young enough that they can take another big player. The market is still developing. Cloud services are still being worked on. It's too early to call game over.

If after MeeGo releases, everything goes south and no one buys one S^3 or MeeGo phone, how long would it take for Nokia to crank out Android phones? For them, probably not very long. I just don't think they're done fighting.

Sorry, I'm not convinced (nor angry, so don't take this post the wrong way). You introduce new points into the argument some of which I agree, but my original point is hard to refute: despite increased competition for a single-OS/multi-device (SOMD) implementation, there are many companies that have taken pole position in the computer/laptop market despite a singular OS with an undifferentiated UI. There is precedent to state that the model 'works' so a claim that implies that it absolutely does not, is insipid at best.

And Apple's recent success is due to many variables, including the PMP, Phone, App store, Media store, etc. Few of which directly compete with the Windows Desktop PC OS.

[SAABoy]

And becoming the Wintel of phones from manufacturers point of view, except for the fact that Google sells the ink cartridges on Android.

HTC seems to be taking first steps out of Google's "All your non-harware revenue are belong to us" trap with Google Maps alternative. Will be intersting to see how it goes.

All your hardware are belong to us...

using android is like peeing in your pants...

This thread is freaking hillarious :D :D

[Texrat]

That might mean very little if you depend on a Nokia image for your Nokia device.

I have to admit, I don't understand that comment...

[daperl]

@ragnar

It could be as simple as this:

Google wants revenue from an app ecosystem. So, they want to attract developers by trying to control the middle to upper layers of the OS. No one wants an IE 6 fiasco, users or developers. The hardware manufacturers won't see a dime from that app ecosystem as far as I can tell, yet they know that brand loyalty through differentiation helps create larger profit margins [see Apple]. I'm not sure if it's even legal, but Google should give them a piece to create some peace.

[geohsia]

Sorry, I'm not convinced (nor angry, so don't take this post the wrong way). You introduce new points into the argument some of which I agree, but my original point is hard to refute: despite increased competition for a single-OS/multi-device (SOMD) implementation, there are many companies that have taken pole position in the computer/laptop market despite a singular OS with an undifferentiated UI. There is precedent to state that the model 'works' so a claim that implies that it absolutely does not, is insipid at best.

And Apple's recent success is due to many variables, including the PMP, Phone, App store, Media store, etc. Few of which directly compete with the Windows Desktop PC OS.

I understand. I don't see you as angry at all, nor am I. I don't disagree that Nokia could be successful in the Android market. All I'm saying is that it's still early and room for another big player. The market is far from saturated and people are still staking their claim on new territory, though Nokia is incredibly behind, but like I said, if Nokia wanted to enter into the Android market, they can pretty quickly.

[Rauha]

To say that a single-OS/multi-device strategy doesn't work from a profitability standpoint is to ignore the last two decades of Windows computers, and the respective companies producing them that have come to dominate the industry.
He's not saying that it can't be profitaböe, just that the profitability is low. Wintel dominates PC industry, but profit margins for manufacturers are low. Just go look at Dell's margins or what HP makes from consumer PC's without the printer income.

You can allready see similar situation developping for Android manufacturers. LG just reported huge losses for it's phone division and LG's phone chief resigned. Motorola's handsets still make losses and Motorola is only floating because CEO has sold all the crown jewels, last one being the network unit to Nokia Siemens Networks. Sony Ericsson is just barely profitable, HTC has started looking for ways out of Google's service dominance and Samsung has Bada as long term solution.

Edit: I'm not saying that Android isn't good platform from consumer point of view, it is. It also has bright future ahead and there will be manufacturers making devices for it, just like there are manufacturer for putting Intel CPUs and Windows in PCs. It will profitable, but not a goldmine for manufacturers.

With this level of 'foresight' it's not surprising he was fired.
Yeah they fired him, then asked him to stay for six months and be the keynote speaker at Nokia's most important event next day.

[danramos]

Well, then your analogy fails. I don't remember Dell, Gateway, Acer, ..., etc. rewriting the MS Windows UI.

Actually, I do. Anybody remember Packard Bell and their MS Bob-like UI that kicked in INSTEAD of the Windows GUI? I do. :)

[danramos]

I have to admit, I don't understand that comment...

I'm suggesting Tivoization of the flash (fiasco, for instance) image or enough binary blobs to make it so that you can't get things fixed or to do what YOU want.

[yorg]

He's not saying that it can't be profitaböe, just that the profitability is low. Wintel dominates PC industry, but profit margins for manufacturers are low. Just go look at Dell's margins or what HP makes from consumer PC's without the printer income.

You can allready see similar situation developping for Android manufacturers. LG just reported huge losses for it's phone division and LG's phone chief resigned. Motorola's handsets still make losses and Motorola is only floating because CEO has sold all the crown jewels, last one being the network unit to Nokia Siemens Networks. Sony Ericsson is just barely profitable, HTC has started looking for ways out of Google's service dominance and Samsung has Bada as long term solution.

Edit: I'm not saying that Android isn't good platform from consumer point of view, it is. It also has bright future ahead and there will be manufacturers making devices for it, just like there are manufacturer for putting Intel CPUs and Windows in PCs. It will profitable, but not a goldmine for manufacturers.


Excuse me, but you can't be suggesting that the loss of profit of LG and Motorola is because of Android and not because of terrible hardware produced. Not to mention that Motorola has managed to actually gain a bit from Android.

Of course everyone wants to have the best product and thus prefer diversity, but it would be stupid not to adopt a technology that has the edge just so you can say "I am different" and then produce something that does 1/10th of what you snubbed.

Google is not stopping samsung from producing Bada, or Nokia from producing Meego. They offer a cross platform alternative. I am still struggling to understand what the hardware manufacturers, and furthermore the consumers can lose in the long term because of it.

I mean does anyone here deny that Nokia didn't try to do the same with Symbian? If not then why is Nokia licensing Symbian for other platforms?

[longcat]

tag: nokia's balmer - f*cking epic :)

[Texrat]

Anyone familiar with Vanjoki knows better than to compare him with Steve Ballmer. Now, contrast maybe...

[jnack95]

Android (or iOS) may be the soup du jour but the desktop and the handheld are rapidly converging.....good luck to all the players because the field is rapidly enlarging. With this larger field, expect ALOT more players.......many veterans too. A very entertaining game to watch!

[attila77]

This article is ridiculous. To say that a single-OS/multi-device strategy doesn't work from a profitability standpoint is to ignore the last two decades of Windows computers, and the respective companies producing them that have come to dominate the industry.

Windows computers are actually a very bad example as they confirm the original point - the only permanently dominant company was Microsoft, the hardware vendors rose and fell, came and went. Very few of those who were in the original PC business are still with us (HP the only notable exception that comes to mind). IBM, Amstrad, Compaq, Epson, Olivetti, WYSE, Zenith, just to name a few big players that no longer do PCs (or exist at all)... All of them huge at the time, but didn't survive. At best every major manufacturer had rough patches in the cutthroat arena of commoditized PC hardware.

[quipper8]

Android (or iOS) may be the soup du jour but the desktop and the handheld are rapidly converging.....good luck to all the players because the field is rapidly enlarging. With this larger field, expect ALOT more players.......many veterans too. A very entertaining game to watch!

AND, google has already said theat they don't think android is ideal for tablets and are going to try chromeOS on their own reference tablet IF they release one

[nilchak]

Well, then your analogy fails. I don't remember Dell, Gateway, Acer, ..., etc. rewriting the MS Windows UI.

Yes ! But profit margins for PC sales are razor thin since it is a commoditized hardware nearly.

But profit margins from Smartphone sales are much higher - and I am sure each manufactirer (HTC, Moto Nokia) will try to protect the margins - and thats where the differentiation comes in. None of these players want the smartphone to become a commodity hardware running the same OS underneath, if they want to enjoy the profits - and its in Smartphones segment that the greatest profit margins are.

[danramos]

AND, google has already said theat they don't think android is ideal for tablets and are going to try chromeOS on their own reference tablet IF they release one

And you KNOW that somewhere down the road, there won't be a difference between the two. :) (i.e. ChromeOS running Android apps)

[scribbles]

The market is far from saturated and people are still staking their claim on new territory, though Nokia is incredibly behind, but like I said, if Nokia wanted to enter into the Android market, they can pretty quickly.

I disagree. The market is highly saturated...Android platform is on practically every carrier. High end, low end... Some more than others. Nokia can stand out or be that ALTERNATIVE that a lot of people are looking for but for some reason they keep developing Linux-based OS's (Maemo/MeeGo) that they soon after, drop like the plague only to go back to Symbian.

Symbian doesn't make the consumer's mouths water and they need to understand that. I hope Nokia will wake up and finally take a look around. Oh yeah btw, that was my foretelling about MeeGo. Nokia it seems is already disavowing any mention of it and has become uncomfortable when confronted about it. Nokia World was a prime example of this behavior. Just stop running in place...

[bsving]

Nokia can stand out or be that ALTERNATIVE that a lot of people are looking for but for some reason they keep developing Linux-based OS's (Maemo/MeeGo) that they soon after, drop like the plague only to go back to Symbian.


They haven't dropped MeeGo, they dropped Maemo to continue with MeeGo together with Intel. The result being they can make both ARM and Intel devices running essentially the same software.

Maemo turned out to be a dead end road with no future, so what? get over it. This is probably the strangest things with all these symbian bashing threads. Symbian is the most successful mobile OS by far, and it just continue to grow. Meamo is one of the least successful mobile OS'es (not a bad OS by any means, but it has no future, there is no place for it in the mobile world).

Android may seem like the golden duck for some people here, but it is not. SE X10 Mini and soon to come X8 is killing all high end Android devices. Android phones are defined by the OS, and SE has lowered the list without lowering the specs. From a consumer point the value of the X10 mini and X8 is very high, and for any devices more high end (read: more pricey) than those two, the value drops like a stone, because the OS is the same, the definition of the phone has not changed, only the price.

Google may very well want it all, but it is not realistic, the marked is by nature much too segmented and differentiated. The only way to make this happen would be if Google made different versions of Android (starter, home and pro :eek: and then some more versions). This would perhaps work if they started 10-15 years ago (as Nokia did), but not today anyway, and certainly not with an OS that is essentially open source, and not when they have no hardware on their own. For Android to even survive in the near future, they have to focus on a segment where they reach out to most people, and that is the X10 Mini/X8 segment, and for the time being this suits SE and Huawei just fine. HTC on the other hand, will soon be in real problems, but maybe not, Windows Mobile 7 is coming. Motorola on the other hand, will vanish. IMHO of course :D

[droll]

so what does google stand to gain from this?

[gerbick]

With all due respect to you Gerbick, I think most of us would have read 'Short-term' pretty much the same as 'Stop-gap' only with more dire consequences for the future outcome.

Hence the expression 'Short-termism' being a negative concept for business. Short term gains traded off against long term stability, etc.

I get what you're saying, and I don't mind admitting that my connotation - notice I didn't say denotation - is a bit softer than most in that regard.

So let's go with the consensus backed connotation of short-term. I still have to think that Nokia is guilty of this with the N8.

But we'll see.

[Odd_gunnic]

AND, google has already said theat they don't think android is ideal for tablets and are going to try chromeOS on their own reference tablet IF they release one

Actually there is quote on carrypad.com saying chromeOS is netbook only, maybe gingerbread.

[gerbick]

Anyone familiar with Vanjoki knows better than to compare him with Steve Ballmer. Now, contrast maybe...

They both appear to honestly love their companies, straight-shooters unafraid to endorse their product over any others and vocal... and it stops there. The rest differentiates them (true enough) but lowest common denominators and a penchant to say things in triplicate "Developers, developers, developers" or "CBD, CBD, CBD" is compelling evidence of more alike than dislike...

But I get your sentiment. Ballmer comes off as an used-car salesman to me. Always has...

[ctbeiser]

Yes ! But profit margins for PC sales are razor thin since it is a commoditized hardware nearly.

But profit margins from Smartphone sales are much higher - and I am sure each manufactirer (HTC, Moto Nokia) will try to protect the margins - and thats where the differentiation comes in. None of these players want the smartphone to become a commodity hardware running the same OS underneath, if they want to enjoy the profits - and its in Smartphones segment that the greatest profit margins are.

Sure, HTC, Motorola and Nokia are trying to protect the margins. But Sanyo? LG? Companies you've never heard of from China? No chance. And furthermore, if all smartphones run android, it WILL be commoditized hardware. Which leads to razor thin margins. In a sense, it almost already is. The Vibrant isn't that different from the Nexus or the Optimus 1 or the Droid X. It's just a couple of pieces of different hardware. As they expand their lineups, it'll get closer and closer. And that's not where Nokia wants to be.

[scribbles]

Maemo turned out to be a dead end road with no future, so what? get over it. This is probably the strangest things with all these symbian bashing threads. Symbian is the most successful mobile OS by far, and it just continue to grow. Meamo is one of the least successful mobile OS'es (not a bad OS by any means, but it has no future, there is no place for it in the mobile world).



First off, no one is boo-hooing about the supposed "dead end road with no future" of Maemo. That's what MeeGo is suppose to be... a continuation of Maemo. Second of all, this isn't a Symbian bashing thread either. The point I was making is that MeeGo will go away just like Maemo did (without any support from Nokia). That's my opinion. We can speculate all we want about MeeGo but it's just funny (in a weird marketing way) that at Nokia World 2010 they spoke nothing about the MeeGo platform that will supposedly be released on some handsets in a couple of months.

[ysss]

so what does google stand to gain from this?

You've got a point.

I can hear the mutterings from Mountain View:

"Please don't pee in our pants... please don't pee in our pants..."

[sjgadsby]

First off, no one is boo-hooing about the supposed "dead end road with no future" of Maemo. That's what MeeGo is suppose to be... a continuation of Maemo.

Since MeeGo-Harmattan is, essentially, Maemo 6 with a colorful, new nameplate, it is very much a continuation of Maemo. GTK was slated to be replaced by Qt in Harmattan long before the merger, so a complete UI rewrite was due anyway, and the substantial similarities between Maemo and Moblin on the lower layers were exactly what led to the merger happening.

Changes end users will see moving from Maemo 5 to MeeGo-Harmattan should primarily be ones they'd have seen moving from Maemo 5 to Maemo 6 anyway. Whether those changes are beneficial or not are up to each individual to decide.

[ossipena]

Really, so they don't want to allow others to use the OS on their phones, cars, netbooks etc?

this is so wrong that I cannot find words for it. did you even read/understand what this all is about?

e: I'll edit all my replies here

Can you elaborate more on how this makes any difference? The end goal is to create one or more OS for mobile devices. How is a company that adopts Android in any different shape than a company that adopts Symbian or Meego?


if you don't want to head to bulk manufacturing, you need to have your own services. and even better: if you have bought a navigation company and have a lot map data, software, etc, where's the point to use os that has google maps built in?


For that matter, isn't using Android on your phone allowing you to concentrate on the business of building your hardware...

that is the problem. unless you can produce stuff cheaper than foxconn, you are in big trouble.

This article is ridiculous. To say that a single-OS/multi-device strategy doesn't work from a profitability standpoint is to ignore the last two decades of Windows computers, and the respective companies producing them that have come to dominate the industry.

With this level of 'foresight' it's not surprising he was fired.

sorry, but you just blew your point with the last words rendering your facts as "facts". Van Joking resigned.

I wasn't surprised when I saw who thanked you btw ;)

Hold on. Is this a common thing with kids in Finland? o.O Maybe he's not quite the wordsmith this company needs speaking on its behalf?

"the boy who cried the wolf"

I am seriously considering that you have really limited capacity between your ears.

Well, then your analogy fails. I don't remember Dell, Gateway, Acer, ..., etc. rewriting the MS Windows UI.

what about lenov... khrm ibm? didn't they get a rid from pc:s? ....


And you KNOW that somewhere down the road, there won't be a difference between the two. :) (i.e. ChromeOS running Android apps)

how exactly does that differ from S^3(&4) vs MeeGo + Qt?

[danramos]

You've got a point.

I can hear the mutterings from Mountain View:

"Please don't pee in our pants... please don't pee in our pants..."

It's not quite as cold in Mountain View. Literally and metaphorically. :)

I am seriously considering that you have really limited capacity between your ears.

Your face has a limited capacity between your ears. :P

[maxximuscool]

from a company's standpoint, that is exactly what it is like

I mean, you are sacrificing all of your possible margin on OS to a third party, so yes, while you may sell more phones in the short term(the warmth), soon enough there will be many many more competitors with nearly the same thing and you will be lost in a sea of cheap hardware with little to distinguish youself(the wet cold that comes after)

companies hopping on android are basically selling their souls to google, and google is very good at soul-sucking

So is iOS. And so is Nokia lol. All soul and blood sucking monsters. Just Nokia bad at sucking people soul that's all. Atleast we got OpenSource N900 :)

[geohsia]

I disagree. The market is highly saturated...Android platform is on practically every carrier. High end, low end...

Somehow you missed all of the stats flying around. In the overall smartphone market Nokia DOMINATES, and I'm a pretty harsh critic of Nokia's strategies. In the high-end they are virtually non-existent but no one disputes that Nokia absolutely OWNS the majority of low-end. Sorry, I like Android, but the numbers don't support your assertion.

Why is that important? Because of Nokia's brand history and focus on non-US markets, a lot of those low-end customers would look at Nokia's high-end offering first as they move up and as Nokia releases competitive product. Could they move to Android / iOS? Sure, but with that much marketshare, you bet Nokia has customer retention in mind when they released the N8 and E7.

If Nokia gets out of Symbian S^3 and MeeGo, every low-end smartphone customer that wants to enter the high-end smartphone market would have no choice but to go to Android or IOS. At least Nokia gives them that choice. It's no lock, but if they execute well (don't even have to necessarily be better) I think they have a good shot at keeping those customers in the high-end.

Some more than others. Nokia can stand out or be that ALTERNATIVE that a lot of people are looking for but for some reason they keep developing Linux-based OS's (Maemo/MeeGo) that they soon after, drop like the plague only to go back to Symbian.

Maybe. I'm not convinced yet that MeeGo is going to go away. I can see Nokia slimming down to one OS for the mid to high end market. The problem with S^3 is that it's good for phones but not much good for anything else like tablets or auto entertainment / navigation systems. With MeeGo you can have a more comprehensive ecosystem. I can see S^4 going away and if MeeGo is successful in a short time then I can see S^3 fading away too, but those are big IFs.

Symbian doesn't make the consumer's mouths water and they need to understand that.

The millions of smartphone users around the world disagrees. Looking at the high-end US market, I'm with you. Broaden to the overall market and you may not have a case. There are hundreds of millions of smartphone users that are ripe for picking as they move to the high-end and no one is as well positioned to pick them off as Nokia, but they have a lot of work to do to make it happen.

I hope Nokia will wake up and finally take a look around. Oh yeah btw, that was my foretelling about MeeGo. Nokia it seems is already disavowing any mention of it and has become uncomfortable when confronted about it. Nokia World was a prime example of this behavior. Just stop running in place...

Actually, it's not. Who would care about the N8 and E7 if all you talked about was how awesome tablets and MeeGo N9 will be. Do you really they are going to pull a Kanye on themselves. I can see it now at Nokia World...

"Yo Symbian S^3, I'm really happy for you, I'll let you finish, but MeeGo is going one of the best mobile OSes of all time. One of the best OSes of all time!"

Then what, they go on to demo the N8 and the E7? They did the right thing, otherwise they would pretty much have ruined their entire launch, and just from a practical point of view, MeeGo isn't even ready. What, more mockups and more promises that soon you will have in 6 months? No they have to stop doing that. They announce when they're ready to ship and get it to customers hands. They need to be disciplined.

Nokia will be fine. They need to get their act together, but they're executing to what they said they'd do at the beginning of the year. Let them do what they need to do. If the N8 in fact does suck and the E7 is a lame duck, we'll know soon enough. If MeeGo is stillborn then its over.

What you have to realize too is that the Android market is all about comoditization. Who can get it out faster and cheaper. Customers don't care if they have a moto or HTC phone or Samsung. They have Android. If Nokia entered you can bet they can duke it out in terms of design and cost just like the rest of them. They're not there yet.

[kureyon]

This article is ridiculous. To say that a single-OS/multi-device strategy doesn't work from a profitability standpoint is to ignore the last two decades of Windows computers, and the respective companies producing them that have come to dominate the industry.Notice who makes all the money - the vast bulk of profits in the "PC industry" are made by MS. Whilst hardware increases in capability and plummets in price month after month, the cost of DOS/Windows keeps going up with each bug fix release. HP gets a huge chunk of its profits from selling ink, its printers/imaging division accounts for over 40% of its net profit for 2009. That is why Dell has got into the lucrative ink market by selling its own printers. Whilst hardware has long been commoditised and thus offer little to negative profits, MS through its ruthless interoperability (read, lack of) has managed to avoid commoditising Windows and hence makes as much or more profit than the rest of the PC industry combined.

[elie-7]

ok.... now everyone thinks that this is a battle between microsoft and apple in the pc world, and iphone vs android vs symbian in the smartphone world, well it will eventually lead to one thing, full open source is the future of the cyber world .
linux is what will take over the world, not google, not microsoft, and not apple thats for sure, linux will take over the pc world as its growing day by day in the underground, and it will take over the smartphone world with the full open source os maemo/meego .
beleive in open source, its what we do best, and its what will take over the world, long live maemo5/meego .

[afaq]

Must say it is very refreshing to get such good quality discussions going on in TMO. There has been too much white noise recently and I often forget why I come on this forum so often.

For that - thank you all.

[NOMOS]

Notice who makes all the money - the vast bulk of profits in the "PC industry" are made by MS. Whilst hardware increases in capability and plummets in price month after month, the cost of DOS/Windows keeps going up with each bug fix release. HP gets a huge chunk of its profits from selling ink, its printers/imaging division accounts for over 40% of its net profit for 2009. That is why Dell has got into the lucrative ink market by selling its own printers. Whilst hardware has long been commoditised and thus offer little to negative profits, MS through its ruthless interoperability (read, lack of) has managed to avoid commoditising Windows and hence makes as much or more profit than the rest of the PC industry combined.

Well said.

[lma]

Whilst hardware has long been commoditised and thus offer little to negative profits

Oh come on, if PC hardware wasn't profitable no one would make it until prices rose significantly above break-even point to make it worthwhile.

Who benefited from commoditisation (ok, apart from MS)? Answer: you and I (as consumers) did, and more so if we don't run Windows.

Does the same answer apply to mobile devices? I suspect not and the main beneficiaries would be the operators, at least as long as most people insist on getting their devices subsidised and getting tied to one 24-month contract after another because they can't add and think it's cheaper that way :-/

Now, on the OS side there's not going to be a MS this time around. Android has already commoditised the market significantly and Nokia is in the process of doing exactly the same with both Symbian and MeeGo.

Why would they do that? Because the money now is in services (app stores, music stores, ads, LBS etc), and in order for them to be successful there they a) need to be on as many devices as possible (even if they didn't make them), and b) can't let anyone else (eg Google or Apple) corner the market.

Android has no place in that business model (unless you're Google of course). What does, for Nokia, is lots and lots of flashy "Ovi devices" of all flavours designed primarily to make you "consume" "content".

[ysss]

Your face has a limited capacity between your ears. :P

Friendly fire! Hold your fire!!

Lol that comment was by Ossi.

He's using the forum for his anger management therapy again.
What a pennypincher.

[wmarone]

Now, on the OS side there's not going to be a MS this time around. Android has already commoditised the market significantly and Nokia is in the process of doing exactly the same with both Symbian and MeeGo.
How does the above...

Why would they do that? Because the money now is in services (app stores, music stores, ads, LBS etc), and in order for them to be successful there they a) need to be on as many devices as possible (even if they didn't make them), and b) can't let anyone else (eg Google or Apple) corner the market.

Android has no place in that business model (unless you're Google of course). What does, for Nokia, is lots and lots of flashy "Ovi devices" of all flavours designed primarily to make you "consume" "content".
Coincide with this?

Google does aim for Android to be the "Windows" of the mobile world, as that puts them in a position for providing services equal to MS. MeeGo/Symbian, by virtue of how Nokia is pushing them, cannot. And I suspect that might lead to greater adoption in the end, as OEMs decide to slowly migrate towards providing services of their own instead of only hardware.

The only "flashy Ovi devices" out there will be Nokia's.

[ossipena]

Your face has a limited capacity between your ears. :P
you have pretty bad spatial sense or then you think badly deformed heads are normal ones.

[yorg]

bada will win all :D

[danramos]

you have pretty bad spatial sense or then you think badly deformed heads are normal ones.

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your sister's armpits!

...wait, are we having a discussion or a ranking contest? Sorry if I got confused, there. ;)

[danramos]

bada will win all :D

Only if they get on Verizon's BING deal with Microsoft. Then they'll finally have the Android-killer:

BADA-BING

[ossipena]

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your sister's armpits!

...wait, are we having a discussion or a ranking contest? Sorry if I got confused, there. ;)

here were a discussion before you started acting stupid.

[ZShakespeare]

using Symbian and/or Maemo is like warming yourself in Mammoth stool. Both are pretty much the same, but one is sterile, and the other one will get you a nasty disease.

[ysss]

I think you're missing a

[ZogG]

Maybe there's another alternative...

*cough* MeeGo *cough*


Because Google's software represents only a short-term solution that will lead to bigger quandaries down the line, says



*cough* Maemo *cough*

[ossipena]

*cough* Maemo *cough*

so if the name changes, harmattan isn't anymore maemo? care to be more spesific in which point it stopped being maemo and started being meego?

(the upgrade path from m5 to m6 had smaller probability to succeed than getting meego to n900 atm)

[lma]

Google does aim for Android to be the "Windows" of the mobile world, as that puts them in a position for providing services equal to MS.

Yeah, if wishes were fishes... no one is going to nearly monopolise the market like MS managed, not Google, not Apple and not Nokia either.

The only "flashy Ovi devices" out there will be Nokia's.

Unless they screw something up badly, MeeGo compliance means everyone else's MeeGo devices are potential Ovi customers too.

[bergie]

so if the name changes, harmattan isn't anymore maemo? care to be more spesific in which point it stopped being maemo and started being meego?

February 16th 2010 (http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=529073&postcount=14) :)

[twigleaf1976]

Personally I think he was spot on, if a little short of the mark. The concept of a company nailing their colours to Android can also be to make profit, sell phones and get a brand going. A brand people want, because lets face it HTC have done it, Samsung have done it and Motorola were nearly done before Android came along.

Nokia might want to think about that as they continue to sit in their dark little places, silently playing with their many many phones and poor OS'. People, the ones with cash, the customers, want to spend money on cool stuff with apps, phone deals and hardware that works all the time. If Android works and it takes the heat away from a company who can then just make good hardware. Well then you get profit and your shareholders are happy, there is no customer back lash and you don't look like a failing mess of a company.

If that is a short term gain and long term loss then I think it is working for them. Maybe it is time for Nokia to pick one of the thigns they suck at, hardware or software and concentrate on that, because the N8 is pushed back for a better UI experience (youtube shows it to be sh*t) and the N900 sank. Not many of their high end phones are coming out the door with "Great" attached.

And now this morning there is an advert from 3 in the UK to win one of the "really exciting windows 7 phones", another OS for phone makers to buy into but one from a much larger company, MS, in terms of branding and customers. Very good news for customers, not very good for Nokia or it's shareholders. Afterall MS are all about the OS and learned the hard way (Vista, Winmo 6) what is good, they are not hardware manufacturers so that short term gain is looking all the brighter for those hardware makers out there who just do hardware.


Unless they screw something up badly, MeeGo compliance means everyone else's MeeGo devices are potential Ovi customers too.

Oh god what a horrible thought. People really want OVI as their app store?

[attila77]

Who benefited from commoditisation (ok, apart from MS)? Answer: you and I (as consumers) did, and more so if we don't run Windows.


I always wonder what would the state of hardware and software be if, say, OS/2 had it's way. Would hardware development be slower/more expensive ? Would being multiplatform be more important and tools more standardized if we did not have a single dominant MS/PS world ? Many things to ponder about over a beer :)

[JulmaHerra]

Nokia might want to think about that as they continue to sit in their dark little places, silently playing with their many many phones and poor OS'. People, the ones with cash, the customers, want to spend money on cool stuff with apps, phone deals and hardware that works all the time. If Android works and it takes the heat away from a company who can then just make good hardware. Well then you get profit and your shareholders are happy, there is no customer back lash and you don't look like a failing mess of a company.

If that is a short term gain and long term loss then I think it is working for them. Maybe it is time for Nokia to pick one of the thigns they suck at, hardware or software and concentrate on that, because the N8 is pushed back for a better UI experience (youtube shows it to be sh*t) and the N900 sank. Not many of their high end phones are coming out the door with "Great" attached.

Android is not panacea to software or hardware that "works all the time." People tolerate bugs and glitches differently on different products and Nokia is at the moment kind of easy target. No misfortune is too small for making it good enough reason for all out lashing and endless rants, even if at the same time nobody gives a damn if problems of similar magnitude occur in other OS' and devices. To me it seems really stupid, but well then... who said human beings are rational beings?

Fact is that no hardware manufacturer can run development of Android to better suit their needs. It is stictly Google's turf and being run for Google's interests only. It may sell well for the moment, but it may also fail miserably in future and should such thing happen, all manufacturers can do is to find some other OS to suit their needs. Also, more the manufacturers use Android with little or no customizations to differentiate from each other, more fierce the competition between them will go. In the end it will lead to eroding margins, just as Mr. Vanjoki said. Of course, if Nokia adopted Android (and lost all possibilities for any uniqueness and independence) it might sell very well in the short run. They know how to make good hardware. Problem is that such move would completely disintegrate and undermine their software strategy which is all for Qt, Symbian and MeeGo. Of course Symbian might eventually get phased out at some point if there is absolutely no need for it, but I have my doubts about sense of such move.

As for N8, I would judge it only after final products actually shipped, got reviewed and of course, when I have actually tried it myself. So far hands on tests have been somewhat positive. For me it doesn't seem too bad for middle class smartphone. The flagship will be running MeeGo, which at the moment is hard to judge because of it's phase of development and lack of information. But we'll see...

[ossipena]

exactly. I just read a review from iPhone 4 from finnish tech magazine. Rotation works really poorly and small glitches appear from time to time. I was amazed, how could it be even when "it just works"?

[gerbick]

Tear apart the competition whilst never fixing your own problems. Not unique to Americans.

[ysss]

@ossi: what glitches and poor rotation performance?

[gerbick]

what glitches and poor rotation performance?

If you slowly rotate it, it can get a bit glitchy - all iOS devices show this behavior.

[ysss]

Can you give me the search keywords? I did google search on 'iphone 4 rotation glitch' and 'glitchy' but didn't pull any articles about that at all.

I've also done a quick test, slowly rotating the iphone back n forth in safari but didn't see any unpredicted behaviors.

TIA.

[extendedping]

what then is maemo at this point? pissing into the wind?

[SD69]

Unless they screw something up badly, MeeGo compliance means everyone else's MeeGo devices are potential Ovi customers too. And you are surprised by this? We have to start talking Diablo strategy again. ;)

People really want OVI as their app store? No. Nokia wants OVI as an official app store for MeeGo devices.

[ZShakespeare]

Now he's saying that the reason he resigned is because they didn't make him ceo. I cannot be alone in thinking that Nokia is much better off without this clown.

[wmarone]

Yeah, if wishes were fishes... no one is going to nearly monopolise the market like MS managed, not Google, not Apple and not Nokia either.
I know they won't succeed. And if anything, their desire to use the platform to push Google services will be the thing that gets them displaced.

Unless they screw something up badly, MeeGo compliance means everyone else's MeeGo devices are potential Ovi customers too.
Depends entirely on how locked down the devices are, and if Nokia feels a need to reach out to non-Nokia buyers.

Of course, all I want is a device I can enable the community repos on, disable any and all DRM, and get a better device than what I have now.

[danramos]

Get it? BADA-BING?? Huh? Get it?

[danramos]

Now he's saying that the reason he resigned is because they didn't make him ceo. I cannot be alone in thinking that Nokia is much better off without this clown.

Maybe... maybe not. Who will know now? Maybe there was a reason why he was passed over? Maybe he was groomed to be a little too similar to the last CEO and what they really need now is a change of direction, not more of the same?

[craftyguy]

from a company's standpoint, that is exactly what it is like

I mean, you are sacrificing all of your possible margin on OS to a third party, so yes, while you may sell more phones in the short term(the warmth), soon enough there will be many many more competitors with nearly the same thing and you will be lost in a sea of cheap hardware with little to distinguish youself(the wet cold that comes after)

companies hopping on android are basically selling their souls to google, and google is very good at soul-sucking


What about supporting a doomed OS on your device? (maemo anyone?)

There is plenty of room for hardware innovation. Hell, I would just about sell my soul for a smartphone that would last a few days on battery.

[zimon]

Could it be possible (yes it could b) to make Dalvik-VM running as a Meego process, just like we run MS-Windows programs in Linux under Wine?

NITroid, I guess, already has Dalvik-VM source code, so just porting that to run as a Meego process and emulate Android hardware under it.

Well, even lagging Java ME support in Meego is a mistake, I think, from Nokia, so they may not be interested to support Dalvik-programs either.

Nevertheless, if both Java ME and Dalvik programs could be run in Symbian and Meego, users would get lots of applications right from the start.

[wmarone]

There is plenty of room for hardware innovation. Hell, I would just about sell my soul for a smartphone that would last a few days on battery.
That requires innovation on the silicon and battery front. You can get days on battery from the N900, only catch is that you can't use it at all, and that's pretty much true from any high-end device.

Could it be possible (yes it could b) to make Dalvik-VM running as a Meego process, just like we run MS-Windows programs in Linux under Wine?
Possible? Yes. Useful? Debatable, since you won't have access to the Android Market.

NITroid, I guess, already has Dalvik-VM source code, so just porting that to run as a Meego process and emulate Android hardware under it.
Not that easy, not by a long shot.

Well, even lagging Java ME support in Meego is a mistake, I think, from Nokia, so they may not be interested to support Dalvik-programs either.
Dalvik != Java. And a vendor could always add Java to MeeGo.

[zimon]

Dalvik != Java. And a vendor could always add Java to MeeGo.

There is just those much needed improvements (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100915143729255)to Java in Dalvik, which would be usefull (See "So, Why Dalvik?").

Actually I think they (Oracle, LinuxFoundation, JCP, ...?) should make new Java and Java ME versions which would have those; cow type shared memory for classes and separate sandbox for every process. The stack based bytecode should not be changed to register based for portability.

But when in the future we will have many cores in CPUs and more RAM also in mobile phones, Java's advantages compared to old programming languages will come forward more clearly. Just the ability to optimize in the run-time and divide work automatically to multiple cores will make C/C++ obsolete for everything else but for device drivers or for well defined libraries.

People writing applications to Dalvik are doing it in Java. Porting QtJambi (http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qtjambi-4.4/html/com/trolltech/qt/qtjambi-index.html) to Dalvik and having same applications run in every platform would be amazing. I think Nokia would be mainly interested that people are writing Qt-programs.

[ossipena]

@ossi: what glitches and poor rotation performance?

I have no idea, I just read the article. so probably a unit that was for press to be tested.

e: are you suggesting that if google search cannot find something, it simply doesn't exist?

but as per julmaherras point, those glitches are probably there but no-one complains about them because they think those are minor ones.

[craftyguy]

That requires innovation on the silicon and battery front. You can get days on battery from the N900, only catch is that you can't use it at all, and that's pretty much true from any high-end device.



Exactly. My point is that area is wide open to innovation. There's nothing preventing hardware manufacturers from spending some serious R&D in this area (and others) to gain a competitive advantage even though they're still using the same OS as their competitors.

[gerbick]

Can you give me the search keywords? I did google search on 'iphone 4 rotation glitch' and 'glitchy' but didn't pull any articles about that at all.

I've also done a quick test, slowly rotating the iphone back n forth in safari but didn't see any unpredicted behaviors.

TIA.

I can't really give you any leads other than a very small bit of experience with apps that follow full rotation. To be honest, it's perhaps one of the nit pickiest of nitpicks that anybody could point to - I've seen rotation glitches on my N900 that have had me damn near toss the ****ing thing across the wall.

And besides... just turn off rotation. It's lockable since iOS 4 as it is on the N900.

Now Android... the sensors on my Captivate (Samsung Galaxy S variant for AT&T) will rotate when I've tilted merely 15 degrees or so sometimes... and I've yet to find a way to globally ignore that.

Stop looking... I doubt anybody can/will produce a link that's worth a damn.

[ysss]

exactly. I just read a review from iPhone 4 from finnish tech magazine. Rotation works really poorly and small glitches appear from time to time. I was amazed, how could it be even when "it just works"?

@ossi: what glitches and poor rotation performance?

Can you give me the search keywords? I did google search on 'iphone 4 rotation glitch' and 'glitchy' but didn't pull any articles about that at all.

I've also done a quick test, slowly rotating the iphone back n forth in safari but didn't see any unpredicted behaviors.

TIA.

e: are you suggesting that if google search cannot find something, it simply doesn't exist?

For something that "works really poorly", with "small glitches that appears from time to time" I'd expect to find at least one link that talks about that from google.

I've also tried to recreate the problem on my end but I could not find any glitches, even minor ones. I would like to recreate the bug so I can observe it myself.

[olighak]

Can you give me the search keywords? I did google search on 'iphone 4 rotation glitch' and 'glitchy' but didn't pull any articles about that at all.

I've also done a quick test, slowly rotating the iphone back n forth in safari but didn't see any unpredicted behaviors.

TIA.

He said a finnish tech magazine.

I don´t think the finns publish a lot of magazines in english in their own country....

[onethreealpha]

What about supporting a doomed OS on your device? (maemo anyone?)

There is plenty of room for hardware innovation. Hell, I would just about sell my soul for a smartphone that would last a few days on battery.

Most phones will not support MAJOR OS upgrades, making their OS "doomed" from a development perspective. Furthermore, why would you invest your time and labour resources in developing an OS upgrade path when it's only ever been released on one phone?
I bought my N900 knowing it was nothing more than a Nokia test bed, knowing that I was nothing more than a crash test dummy for Nokia's decision to implement a phone stack on the Maemo platform as a part of their decision to get things right for the next OS release. One which will never see official support for a device which is already falling behind it competitors in the eyes of most consumers.
why would a company out to make money, keep providing upgrade suppport to an existing device when they can make more money selling you a new one?

It's interesting to note that none of the Symbian ^3 devices we've seen "reviews" of are running production roms/firmware, and are the "glitches" referred to any different to those which are seen on most preproduction handsets? Furthermore, most of the *****ing relates to the fact that S3 looks a lot like earlier flavours. Obviously it's not new and shiny enough for the mindless consumer "experts" (read: anyone with a blog), which is hilarious considering one of the greatest strengths about nokia devices has always been the ability for a user to upgrade to a new phone and be able to start using it straight away, without the steep learning curve.

I've had more random application closures on my HTC Desire than I've had on my N900 and I've been using my N900 a whole lot more than my Desire.

The challenge for phone makers choosing Android will always be relying on a third party to fix the bugs which present on their phones (along with upgrades and the capacity of new OS releases to be able to work on their existing product line up). People will ***** about their crappy LG/Samsung/HTC/SE devices rather than pointing the finger at the 3rd party OS which runs on it.


....was I making a point?......can't remember:)

[ysss]

He said a finnish tech magazine.

I don´t think the finns publish a lot of magazines in english in their own country....

I know.

But the product is based in US, an english speaking country. They have much more users there.... whiney users if I may add, which would blog, report and complain about every little problems to 'the web'; I'd expect at least one post that lambasts something that "works really poorly".

[ossipena]

I know.

But the product is based in US, an english speaking country. They have much more users there.... whiney users if I may add, which would blog, report and complain about every little problems to 'the web'; I'd expect at least one post that lambasts something that "works really poorly".

who said that the rotation works really poorly? you probably just proved my point about certain bugs being features outside symbian/maemo/meego

[ysss]

who said that the rotation works really poorly? you probably just proved my point about certain bugs being features outside symbian/maemo/meego

You did. Scroll up.
Might want to debug your i/o functions ;)

Ok, Since there's no substance behind that particular post of yours I'm not gonna clutter this thread anymore with this nonsense.

[bergie]

Could it be possible (yes it could b) to make Dalvik-VM running as a Meego process, just like we run MS-Windows programs in Linux under Wine?

Apparently this is exactly what the WeTab MeeGo tablet does (http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=8746&postcount=21).

[kureyon]

whiney users if I may add, which would blog, report and complain about every little problems to 'the web'; I'd expect at least one post that lambasts something that "works really poorly".But they are much closer to the source of the reality distortion field ;)

[gerbick]

It doesn't work "really poorly" nor... even poorly. Glitchy? All rotation on these devices is susceptible to glitching within certain apps, but not all... and if that's a problem that you wish to point to; start by pointing at your device you probably own.

I'm sitting here with an iPhone, Samsung Captivate & Nokia N900... all of them have an app or three that glitch on rotation. On the Captivate, it's Nimbuzz. I can slightly twist my wrist while placing it down. It will rotate or glitch into a rotate/unrotate frenzy every now-and-then. On the iPhone, for me it's textPlus - the ad will rotate first, then the app... and that's when it's on it's back and I tilt it slightly. On the N900, it was during my yesterday usage and trying to answer the damn phone while it was on a table and it got confused which orientation it should be and I almost missed a phone call.

Frustrating, yep. But to the point of a continued finger point and rant against that platform? No. Not unless you want to be petty... or unrealistic.

[wmarone]

Exactly. My point is that area is wide open to innovation. There's nothing preventing hardware manufacturers from spending some serious R&D in this area (and others) to gain a competitive advantage even though they're still using the same OS as their competitors.
The manufacturers in question (Nokia, Motorola, HTC) aren't the companies that will be researching those innovations though. That will be done by companies like Sony's battery group, Texas Instruments and Qualcomm, the ones that actually produce the parts. So in the end they'll all improve at roughly the same rate, as the true innovations are abstracted out one more level.

Apparently this is exactly what the WeTab MeeGo tablet does (http://forum.meego.com/showpost.php?p=8746&postcount=21).
Not quite. It doesn't run as a MeeGo process, but in its own VM. So you have a VM in a VM. This isn't necessarily bad, and the VM is virtualbox so it's open source, but it's not as thin a layer as it could be. I also wonder if the Atom chip used in the WeTab supports hardware virtualization, if not it might be rather slow.

You still can't access the market, so I don't quite see the value.

[zimon]

You still can't access the market, so I don't quite see the value.

The developers can put their applications available to "a some other market", or surely there would be other ways to get files downloaded from Android market.

Nokia and Intel should take Java and Dalvik more seriously. C++ and Python are not as flexible and auto-optimizeable when hardware of embedded devices becomes also more complex with multiple CPU cores and more RAM in the future.

Long running applications which use lots of non-persistant dynamic memory are a mess with C++; just look www-browsers (done with C++) and the need of restarting them after few days of running. Lack of intelligent garbage collection in C++ is one of the problems.

[Rauha]

Skyhook, pioneer in using Wifi for map positioning, recently sued Google for unfair competion. Looking at the court papers (http://www.scribd.com/doc/37511005/Skyhook-v-Google-Complaint) shows one way of "peeing in your pants" by giving Google the control of your business. Google has forced Motorola and another anonymous Android manufacturer from shipping products that compete with Google maps:

"(Google....) instructing Motorola and Company X that they were under "stop ship" order and were prohibited from shipping phones with Skyhook's XPS embedded."

Do no evil, or whatever.

[ossipena]

You did. Scroll up.
Might want to debug your i/o functions ;)

Ok, Since there's no substance behind that particular post of yours I'm not gonna clutter this thread anymore with this nonsense.

sorry, that was bad translation by me. the text said "small glitches that are really annoying" but between the lines one could clearly read the works poorly part.

but as I've said probably million times: it is all about personal preferences. with iPhone it is small glitch though the annoyance can be almost similar to incoming call rotation stuff with n900 in someones eyes. And with iPhone people rather shut up and think that something is a small glitch.

[gerbick]

Ok, Since there's no substance behind that particular post of yours I'm not gonna clutter this thread anymore with this nonsense.

Told you that you'd not get any definitive links nor answers.

[wmarone]

Nokia and Intel should take Java and Dalvik more seriously. C++ and Python are not as flexible and auto-optimizeable when hardware of embedded devices becomes also more complex with multiple CPU cores and more RAM in the future.
No one will take Dalvik seriously so long as it's entirely under the purview of Google. Java just became a lot more contentious an issue with it falling into Oracle's hands. Were they to fall into the open, much like many of the tools and languages we have today, then maybe people would consider them seriously.

And even then, such isolation is really only beneficial for "App" developers who want to wash the platform out from underneath themselves, and don't care to pay attention to their tools or even understand them.

The only decent solution I see is that PNaCl stuff Google is pushing, but again, so long as it's a Google led effort it's constrained by their vested interests.

Even then, you'll still need things like Qt and have people like me clamoring for direct hardware access and natively compiled code :D

[ysss]

sorry, that was bad translation by me. the text said "small glitches that are really annoying" but between the lines one could clearly read the works poorly part.

but as I've said probably million times: it is all about personal preferences. with iPhone it is small glitch though the annoyance can be almost similar to incoming call rotation stuff with n900 in someones eyes. And with iPhone people rather shut up and think that something is a small glitch.

This is not a logical discussion anymore. I will stand by my last remark.

You're free to think that everyone else in this world is inferior to you and act upon that assumption.

[ossipena]

This is not a logical discussion anymore. I will stand by my last remark.

You're free to think that everyone else in this world is inferior to you and act upon that assumption.

http://tekniikanmaailma.fi/kuva-ja-aani/testit-ja-pikakokeet/tm-testi-apple-iphone-4

don't know how much that warms but there is the article I was talking about....

no, everyone else in the world isn't inferior but I am not inferior to everyone else by default. in other words: facts or I don't care.


e: what do you mean about not being a logical discussion? The underlined part was approximately the initial argument for the whole discussion about tolerance to bugs between different platforms.

and you can ask from finns how they interpret the part with rotation glitch. the hints are pretty strong imo.

[ysss]

e: what do you mean about not being a logical discussion? The underlined part was approximately the initial argument for the whole discussion about tolerance to bugs between different platforms.

The fact that I've been asking for facts to backup what you read between the line (ie: not fact) from the start of our little dance here, and up until now it has not appeared yet.

Broken I/O function mate. Take a break dude, you deserve it. Rest a bit, you'll freshen the mind up and get into better mood.

and you can ask from finns how they interpret the part with rotation glitch. the hints are pretty strong imo.

I'm sensitive enough to discern the vsync issues on n900 even from one of its early demo video. I think I know what to look for here, and I don't see it. Thanks though.